<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">below... [Dropping IH list].</font></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><font color="#ff9900">On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 6:05 AM steve jenkin <<a href="mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au">sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au</a>> wrote:</font><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
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> On 10 Mar 2024, at 06:52, Clem Cole <<a href="mailto:clemc@ccc.com" target="_blank">clemc@ccc.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> That said, a different license for UNIX-based IP could be granted by the Regents of the University of CA and managed by its 'Industrial Laison's Office" at UCB (the 'IOL' - the same folks that brought licenses for tools like SPICE, SPLICE, MOTIS, et al). </font><br></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">I'm not sure if you are catching that the Regents IOL (Industrial Laison's Office) [part of the UCB EE Department] and the DARPA’s IPTO (Information Processing Technology Office) - which was originally part of the US Air Force, then US DOD,<i> etc</i>.. [and went through a number of name changes]. The latter group originally led and managed a small part of the US Gov DOD projects. Its history is best spelled out in Katie Hafner's wonderful book: "<i>Where Wizards Stay Up Late</i>" - ISBN </font><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">9780684832678</font>. <font color="#0000ff">(More in a minute).</font></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">The former, the IOL, managed the external relationships for the EE Department (and later EECS when they created the CS division of EE). It was set up initially in the latter part of the 1960s by my thesis advisor, the late Donald O Pederson(<i>a.k.a.</i>dop) --- and, as I said, the folks that brought you SPICE, SPLICE, and the like]. It already had a way to license and distribute technology from EE to external organizations [using an idea that would later be called 'open source.' He was famous for saying, <u style="font-style:italic">"Unlike our friends across the bay or on the east coast, we give everything away. That way, I get to go in the back door and see what they are doing. If I sell our tools, I use the front door like all salesmen."</u> The circa 1977 "Berkeley Software Distribution" for UNIX came from the IOL, as did other distributions they had been managing since about 1967 or so.</span></div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br><font color="#ff9900">
In the last while I’ve read about DARPA’s IPTO (Information Processing Technology Office) 1962-1986<br>
and how they (generously) funded a very diverse range of projects for extended durations.<br>
<br>
Alan Kay comments that $1M was small beer to DARPA, who were investing billions in R&D every year.</font></blockquote><div><font color="#0000ff"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Be careful. The US government, via DOD (and DOE), was funding billions, while DARPA was a small and mostly forgotten backwater the USAF originally had set up. As I said, see Katie Hafner's book for more details. $1M was a big deal to DARPA. But compared to funding a new fighter or a new air craft carrier, DARPA projects were</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> small potatoes.</span></font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
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It was a boom time for US computing research - funders with vision, deep pockets and patience :)</font><br></blockquote><div><font color="#0000ff"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">No, the boom was the Cold War and the space race.</span> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> That was driving core tech. </span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> CS Research just hitched its wagon to those engines. Things like the ARPANet were funded to solve what the ARMY called the 'radar problem.: How(during a nuclear strike) are you able to keep disparate command centers informed and in sync?</span></font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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I can’t find my source now, nor any list of IPTO’s contracts given to UCB ( or given to anyone ).<br>
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UCB - Berkeley - got many contracts, time-sharing / SDS-940, Ingres, TCP/IP in the Unix kernel and RISC processing.</font><br></blockquote><div><font color="#0000ff"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Yikes -- having lived </span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">it. I fear you may be confusing and mixing some things up - certainly order, and what beget what. First, UCB was very late to the DARPA world. Note that the first ARPAnet IMP semi-available to UCB was at LBL (up the hill). And while the Regents ran LBL, LANL, Los Almos, and the like (for DOE, mind you, not DOD). Furthermore by the time of CSRG, CSRG did not have the contract for IP/TCP for UNIX -- BBN did. <i><u>CSRG had a contract from DARPA to support the UNIX kernel.</u></i> These are the sources of famous issues and questions WRT created. The concept of sockets(2) was a CSRG [Bill Joy ism -- actually to counter Rashid's ports() idea in Accent]. The IP stack (and support) <i>was supposed </i>to be from BBN (and it originally was -- you can see at least one early BBN distribution in the TUHS archives. BTW, Ingres was partially funded by DOD via DARPA and predates CSRG by about 4 or 5 years. Fateman got a contract to move MAXIMA from ITS to UNIX (and create Franz LISP). This was the origin of the original kernel work. Frankly, I don't remember who funded that; but I'm not sure it was DARPA. I think it may have been one of the national labs (DOE) that was using Maxima. FWIW: the Ingres ARPAnet connection was a 'very distant host' interface to one of the 4 ports on the LBL IMP.</span></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I'm not sure who funded Patterson during the RISC work. I know my thesis was funded by industrial folks as as well as DOE grant, not a DOD one.</span></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I just thought of another interesting factiod. </span> Mind you, the BSD sources were free - which I'm sure caused a number of UNIX vendors to stop there (per dop's genius of going in the back door) since BBN was a commercial enterprise (and as such was looking for revenue streams ).<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> The BBN stack actual</span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">ly </span>cost<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> money fo</span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">r commercial firms. In the early 1990s, when we decided to use it, not the UCB code, at Stellar, we had </span>a get<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> a </span>sublicense<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> for it from BBN.</span></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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There was an IPTO director - Bob Taylor or Robert Kahn - that wanted a common development platform with IP plus development tools,<br>
who gave contracts to UCB’s CSRG to do the work.</font><br></blockquote><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">Ouch ... that is not quite right. Again - get Katie's book.</font></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">CSRG is >>much much<< later in the DARPA (or Internet story). By the time of CSRG, DARPA had moved inside of DOD a few times. It was not nearly the size of the other teams, but it was a real line item. As Alan Kay said, it was not even noticed when the original work started compared to other DOD projects.</font></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></span></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">But the problem you are running into is that it was a multifold set of problems - which are often hard to untangle. While I'm not sure how well it worked in practice, the "justification" for the ARPAnet was to share expensive resources owned by the USG and supplied to DOD/DOE contractors. DOD and DOE were paying for lots of computing power at lots of places. DOE used almost anything they could get their hands on - particularly in the scientific processing area, but the CS Research types had started migrating to the PDP-10 for their specific serious work. However, with the PDP-10, there were N different OSs in use. DARPA knows it costs the >>USG<< less if the users operated with a DEC-supplied SW stack, but their CS researcher seems to do more projects with more enhanced OS. BBN has managed to get DEC to pick up its own PDP-10 system and migrate the 'default' OS to be based on theirs (FWIW: DEC is less impressed with ITS and WAITS in those days for commercial reasons - I'm not going to go down that rathole). The reader might try to remember that, as a general rule, DARPA and the rest of the US government teams are trying not to fund what we might call "<i><u>core OS Research."</u></i></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">In 1983, DEC "discontinued" development and no longer offered for sale the PDP-10 in favor of its now widely popular VAX series. DARPA switched to Vax as the platform it will supply to its contractors (DOD and DOE, as well as other depts, offered different systems). However, with the vax as a common platform for the DARPA contractor, there was still a need for some system extensions like ports/sockets for different research projects DARPA is funding. The research community has started to switch to UNIX. But DARPA is concerned about AT&T's "abandoning the OS on the doorstep" scheme. So the question was, how to get UNIX supported on Vax, Since the version of UNIX being used on the VAX by >>much<< but not all of the DOD and DOE community was BSD, DARPA's solution was let a contract to create a support group - CSRG was born.</font></div><br></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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This story implies DARPA helped arrange Unix licences with the many defence contractors, albeit they only need binaries for BSD.</font><br></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">I did not imply that, nor do I think DARPA did. I think other parts of US GOV did <span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">>>sometimes<<</span> </font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">have access to the UNIX IP by means other than the traditional license scheme from AT&T/WE Patent and Licensing group </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff"> -- i.e. Otis Wilson <i>et al </i></font></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">(we have evidence of the same). For instance,</span><font color="#0000ff"> Ford </font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">Aero was doing a joint project with AT&T for NASA [NASA is now an independent agency, but I wonder if that was always true]. Ford Aero is known to have had special access [and there seems to be evidence this was based on PWB 1.0 - which never was formally released outside of the Bell System]. There have been other discussions that when other parts of Ford Motor wanted to use UNIX, the Ford Aero folks were unable to help them.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">We also know that Rand was an original (1960s) DARPA contractor [back to its origin story as a research office inside the Air Force]. When the folks from Harvard went to Rand and wanted to use UNIX, the first commercial license was created by AT&T. And we know that story. </font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">There is evidence that some US government contractors, such as BBN, were in a grey zone. I'll try to get some enlightenment from some of the BBN UNIX folks I know. From discussions, it >>seems<< like the first version of UNIX made its way into BBN and was part of a US Gov contract, probably shared with ATT. But by the time of CSRG, BBN definitely had traditionally commercial source licenses. We also know that Ford became a traditional licensee but started in a place different from others [particularly if the reports of using PWB 1.0 were true -- that distribution was not available from the AT&T/WE patent and license group]. </font></div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font color="#ff9900">
If the Internet Society’s ‘brief history’ is to be believed, Defence declared Unix a ’standard’ (for which work?) in 1980.</font><br></blockquote><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">Please be careful here. The IP based on the UNIX ideas was not a USG standard for any department until FIPS-151 was published post IEEE P1003.1 - which was all in the 1980s. That said, there was often an </font></span><font color="#0000ff"><i><u>operational standard </u></i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">in many US government departments, including DOD, by the early 1980s; based on a preference for a flavor of UNIX by many users, particularly researchers.</span></font></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#0000ff">Furthermore, IP/TCP was the DOD's operational standard by the early 1980s, but by the mid-1980s, DOD's DDN and DOC had picked ISO/OSI and GMAP specifications over the IP family [and we all know how that played out in the end]. </font></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">A number of us in the industry at the time we scrambling how to bring an ISO<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">/OSI</span> stack out on our products for the USG and the Auto/Aerospace customers who were telling us they would not order equipment without [and, of course, the folks in the EU were pushing X.25 and the rest of ISO to counter IP's take off]. Metcalf's law would cause </span>IP to<span style="color:rgb(0,0,255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> win out (i.e., economic reasons), but understand there is a difference between an official standard and what was actually occurring.</span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div></div></div>