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<p>I think we could call many of these responses "mis-ambiguation",
or conflation, they mush everything together as long as the
questions posed and the answers they provide are
"buzzword-adjacent", in a very superficial, mechanical way.
There's no intelligence here, it's just amazing how much we
project onto these bots because we want to believe in them.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/31/2025 03:36 PM, James Johnston
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAO2qRdMHAUHdPj9odydp3c9YwfaaU2pZiR6nmNS8O3r=rjKfWw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Well, I have to say that my experiences with "AI based
search" have been beyond grossly annoying. It keeps trying to
"help me" by sliding in common terms it actually knows about
instead of READING THE DAMN QUERY.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I had much, much better experiences with very literal
search methods, and I'd like to go back to that when I'm
looking for obscure papers, names, etc. Telling me "you mean"
when I damn well DID NOT MEAN THAT is a worst-case
experiences.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sorry, not so much a V11 experience here, but I have to say
it may serve the public, but only to guide them back into
boring, middle-of-the-road, 'average mean-calculating'
responses that simply neither enlighten nor serve the original
purpose of search.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>jj - a grumpy old signal processing/hearing guy who used a
lot of real operating systems back when and kind of misses
them.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, May 31, 2025 at
2:53 PM Luther Johnson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:luther.johnson@makerlisp.com">luther.johnson@makerlisp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I
agree.<br>
<br>
On 05/31/2025 01:09 PM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arnold@skeeve.com" target="_blank">arnold@skeeve.com</a>
wrote:<br>
> It's been going on a for a long time, even before AI. The
amount<br>
> of cargo cult programming I've seen over the past ~ 10
years<br>
> is extremely discouraging. Look up something on Stack
Overflow<br>
> and copy/paste it without understanding it. How much
better is<br>
> that than relying on AI? Not much in my opinion. (Boy,
am I glad<br>
> I retired recently.)<br>
><br>
> Arnold<br>
><br>
> Luther Johnson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:luther.johnson@makerlisp.com" target="_blank">luther.johnson@makerlisp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> I think when no-one notices anymore, how wrong
automatic information is,<br>
>> and how often, it will have effectively redefined
reality, and humans,<br>
>> who have lost the ability to reason for themselves,
will declare that AI<br>
>> has met and exceeded human intelligence. They will be
right, partly<br>
>> because of AI's improvements, but to a larger extent,
because we will<br>
>> have forgotten how to think. I think AI is having
disastrous effects on<br>
>> the education of younger generations right now, I see
it in my<br>
>> workplace, every day.<br>
>><br>
>> On 05/31/2025 12:31 PM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@humeweb.com" target="_blank">andrew@humeweb.com</a>
wrote:<br>
>>> generally, i rate norman’s missives very high on
the believability scale.<br>
>>> but in this case, i think he is wrong.<br>
>>><br>
>>> if you take as a baseline, the abilities of LLMs
(such as earlier versions of ChatGP?) 2-3 years ago<br>
>>> was quite suspect. certainly better than mark
shaney, but not overwhelmingly.<br>
>>><br>
>>> those days are long past. modern systems are
amazingly adept. not necessarily intelligent,<br>
>>> but they can (but not always) pass realistic
tests, pass SAT tests and bar exams, math olympiad tests<br>
>>> and so on. and people can use them to do basic
(but realistic) data analysis including experimental design,<br>
>>> generate working code, and run that code against
synthetic data and produce visual output.<br>
>>><br>
>>> sure, there are often mistakes. the issue of
hullucinations is real. but where we are now<br>
>>> is almost astonishing, and will likely get MUCH
better in the next year or three.<br>
>>><br>
>>> end-of-admonishment<br>
>>><br>
>>> andrew<br>
>>><br>
>>>> On May 26, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Norman Wilson
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:norman@oclsc.org"
target="_blank">norman@oclsc.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> G. Branden Robinson:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> That's why I think Norman has sussed it
out accurately. LLMs are<br>
>>>> fantastic bullshit generators in the Harry
G. Frankfurt sense,[1]<br>
>>>> wherein utterances are undertaken neither
to enlighten nor to deceive,<br>
>>>> but to construct a simulacrum of plausible
discourse. BSing is a close<br>
>>>> cousin to filibustering, where even
plausibility is discarded, often for<br>
>>>> the sake of running out a clock or
impeding achievement of consensus.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ====<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> That's exactly what I had in mind.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think I had read Frankfurt's book before I
first started<br>
>>>> calling LLMs bullshit generators, but I can't
remember for<br>
>>>> sure. I don't plan to ask ChatGPT (which
still, at least<br>
>>>> sometimes, credits me with far greater
contributions to Unix<br>
>>>> than I have actually made).<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Here's an interesting paper I stumbled across
last week<br>
>>>> which presents the case better than I could:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> To link this back to actual Unix history (or
something much<br>
>>>> nearer that), I realized that `bullshit
generator' was a<br>
>>>> reasonable summary of what LLMs do after also
realizing that<br>
>>>> an LLM is pretty much just a much-fancier and
better-automated<br>
>>>> descendant of Mark V Shaney: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V._Shaney"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V._Shaney</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Norman Wilson<br>
>>>> Toronto ON<br>
<br>
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<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
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<div>James D. (jj) Johnston</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Former Chief Scientist, Immersion Networks<br>
</div>
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