From dave at horsfall.org Sun Sep 1 15:18:08 2019 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 15:18:08 +1000 (EST) Subject: [COFF] Eternal September Message-ID: 'Twas back in 1993 when AOL joined USENET (I don't have an exact date) and the joint was never the same since... Me too! These days, of course, it's been taken over by the spammer scum. -- Dave From crossd at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 22:56:14 2019 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:56:14 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. Message-ID: Richard Stallman, known colloquially as 'RMS', has resigned from MIT's Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Free Software Foundation, after making comments defending Jeffrey Epstein, the late sexual predator. Those comments sparked wide-spread outrage across the MIT community and beyond. https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September_2019_(Resignation) https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns - Dan C. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spedraja at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 23:04:34 2019 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:04:34 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: El mar., 17 sept. 2019 14:56, Dan Cross escribió: > Richard Stallman, known colloquially as 'RMS', has resigned from MIT's > Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Free > Software Foundation, after making comments defending Jeffrey Epstein, the > late sexual predator. Those comments sparked wide-spread outrage across the > MIT community and beyond. > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September_2019_(Resignation) > https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns > > - Dan C. > And here is #FreeSoftwareFoundation #FSF note about Stallman's resignation. https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße ----- Sergio Pedraja -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Sep 17 23:05:30 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 14:05:30 +0100 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:56 PM Dan Cross wrote: > Richard Stallman, known colloquially as 'RMS', has resigned from MIT's > Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Free > Software Foundation, after making comments defending Jeffrey Epstein, the > late sexual predator. Those comments sparked wide-spread outrage across the > MIT community and beyond. > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September_2019_(Resignation) > https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns > This is an uppance long time in coming... his bad behavior has long ago caused some communities to stop inviting him to their events.. Warner - Dan C. > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Wed Sep 18 00:00:26 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 10:00:26 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's interesting what finally got him. His bad behavior has been around a long time. ᐧ On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:56 AM Dan Cross wrote: > Richard Stallman, known colloquially as 'RMS', has resigned from MIT's > Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Free > Software Foundation, after making comments defending Jeffrey Epstein, the > late sexual predator. Those comments sparked wide-spread outrage across the > MIT community and beyond. > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September_2019_(Resignation) > https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns > > - Dan C. > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lm at mcvoy.com Wed Sep 18 00:20:28 2019 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:20:28 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190917142028.GG2046@mcvoy.com> The interesting thing is that RMS has been saying stuff kids can agree to sex with an adult for 15 years or more. It's in his blog. I think the reason he is out now is that he defended Epstein and the Epstein stuff has a decent chance at taking down the administration and some powerful professors like Minsky. I can believe there is pressure on those folks to give back the money and resign for the good of the institution. But those people don't want to leave, they want this to blow over and RMS was bringing more unwanted attention. If it really was just about his views, his views have been consistent for a long time and MIT didn't care. Kinda sleazy that they are booting him to save their own skins but I have no empathy for RMS, I have kids. On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 10:00:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > It's interesting what finally got him. His bad behavior has been around a > long time. > ??? > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:56 AM Dan Cross wrote: > > > Richard Stallman, known colloquially as 'RMS', has resigned from MIT's > > Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Free > > Software Foundation, after making comments defending Jeffrey Epstein, the > > late sexual predator. Those comments sparked wide-spread outrage across the > > MIT community and beyond. > > > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September_2019_(Resignation) > > https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns > > > > - Dan C. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > COFF mailing list > > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From clemc at ccc.com Wed Sep 18 00:23:08 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 10:23:08 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: <20190917142028.GG2046@mcvoy.com> References: <20190917142028.GG2046@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: +1 ᐧ On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 10:20 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > The interesting thing is that RMS has been saying stuff kids can agree > to sex with an adult for 15 years or more. It's in his blog. > > I think the reason he is out now is that he defended Epstein and the > Epstein stuff has a decent chance at taking down the administration and > some powerful professors like Minsky. I can believe there is pressure > on those folks to give back the money and resign for the good of the > institution. But those people don't want to leave, they want this to > blow over and RMS was bringing more unwanted attention. > > If it really was just about his views, his views have been consistent > for a long time and MIT didn't care. Kinda sleazy that they are booting > him to save their own skins but I have no empathy for RMS, I have kids. > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 10:00:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > It's interesting what finally got him. His bad behavior has been > around a > > long time. > > ??? > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:56 AM Dan Cross wrote: > > > > > Richard Stallman, known colloquially as 'RMS', has resigned from MIT's > > > Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Free > > > Software Foundation, after making comments defending Jeffrey Epstein, > the > > > late sexual predator. Those comments sparked wide-spread outrage > across the > > > MIT community and beyond. > > > > > > > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September_2019_(Resignation) > > > https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns > > > > > > - Dan C. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > COFF mailing list > > > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > COFF mailing list > > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Sep 18 01:24:51 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 11:24:51 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: <20190917142028.GG2046@mcvoy.com> References: <20190917142028.GG2046@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <44eff39e-f039-8da2-29d3-7466b6b59646@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-09-17 10:20 a.m., Larry McVoy wrote: > ... the > Epstein stuff has a decent chance at taking down the administration and > some powerful professors like Minsky. ... > Prof Minsky died January 24, 2016. --Toby From crossd at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 02:01:14 2019 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:01:14 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 10:00 AM Clem Cole wrote: > It's interesting what finally got him. His bad behavior has been around > a long time. > Indeed. I remember hearing about his predations years ago; they were well-known then just as they are today. Nasty business like propositioning the female custodial staff at MIT when he lived in his office; being sleazy to women at conferences: as you say, he's been a bad actor for a long time. I think that what got him was this era in which this latest kerfuffle emerged into the public eye. People have finally had enough and are (rightfully) demanding action against those who repeatedly behave poorly. Women in particular are tired of being treated badly in CS and technology in general and are pushing back (to which I personally say, "good. How can I help?"). Hiding behind a thin guise of faux "rationality" or rhetoric or appeals to pseudo-scientific "questions" or just being socially awkward is no longer a shield for being a harasser or predator. The myth of the quirky intellectual who delights in irreverent behavior as a foil to established norms in order to break free to some higher level of thought have been exposed as the shams they mostly are. These people aren't geniuses, they're just jerks. Stallman's position as the revered patron saint of Free Software has been crumbling for some time; this outburst in the current environment was the straw that broke the MIT camel's back. - Dan C. PS: Semi-related story: during the aftermath of the 2013 Boston marathon bombing, and in particular after the ambush-style murder of MIT police officer Sean Collier, much of the greater Boston area was under lockdown while combined police forces tracked down the bombers. Collier was killed in his patrol car an intersection about a block from the Stata Center, which houses CSAIL and Stallman's office. Stallman was known for propping the doors to Stata open as he's somehow morally opposed to the RFID key cards usually used for accessing MIT buildings (apparently he doesn't like being "tracked"). During this time I'm told he raised something of a stink because people were closing the doors: nevermind that armed killers who'd already murdered a cop were running around the neighborhood. It's a great example of letting the perfect (some abstract notion of "freedom") be the enemy of the good (not getting killed because someone motivated to launch a terrorist attack and actually murder people was running around outside). The man is unreasonable and I'm not at all sorry to see him go. Like Larry, I've got kids: I'm happy they'll grow up in a post-RMS world. On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:56 AM Dan Cross wrote: > >> Richard Stallman, known colloquially as 'RMS', has resigned from MIT's >> Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Free >> Software Foundation, after making comments defending Jeffrey Epstein, the >> late sexual predator. Those comments sparked wide-spread outrage across the >> MIT community and beyond. >> >> >> https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September_2019_(Resignation) >> https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns >> >> - Dan C. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> COFF mailing list >> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lm at mcvoy.com Wed Sep 18 04:35:05 2019 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 11:35:05 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: <20190917160228.19D3C18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190917160228.19D3C18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20190917183505.GE9704@mcvoy.com> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:02:28PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Larry McVoy > > > If it really was just about his views, his views have been consistent > > for a long time and MIT didn't care. > > The outrage over Epstein is so un-balanced I have a strong desire to vomit. > > Not that I have any feeling at all that Epstein didn't deserve what he got. My > disgust is that Roman Polanksi, who did exactly the same thing to a 13-year > old, was defended and lionized by a long list of entertainment world figures > after his arrest in Switzerland - many of whom are now falling all over > themselves to condemn Epstein. I'm not defending Polanksi, he clearly should be held to account, having anything to do with a 13 year is all sorts of messed up. I think the outrage of Epstein at MIT is more about MIT knowingly taking money from a convicted pedophile who had a lot of rich friends, and then trying to cover it up. It's stunningly stupid that MIT would risk their reputation over $7.5M. That's .1% of their endowment at the time. The people involved, in my opinion, should give the money to a worthy charity and resign for the sake of the institution. MIT doesn't deserve these people, they need to go. From clemc at ccc.com Wed Sep 18 05:03:35 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:03:35 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: <20190917183505.GE9704@mcvoy.com> References: <20190917160228.19D3C18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20190917183505.GE9704@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 2:35 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > I think the outrage of Epstein at MIT is more about MIT knowingly taking > money from a convicted pedophile who had a lot of rich friends > I 100% agree. This is revolting and it >>is<< a shame it has gone on and people who should have/could have done something, have let it happen. But my cynical self says that it is nothing new. Look at the Kennedy's and Harvard. None of the Kennedy's could keep their pants zipped and JFK's father was a bootlegger during prohibition. But we have another generation throwing money around and people are cheering. There was an article in today's globe about this very issue about the schools. Large orgs, like MIT and Harvard or my own CMU and UCB, are fueled by money. CMU always has been looking for ways to get more money since Dick Cyert (had been head of the business school making it a top 5 B-school became president when I was there). Cyert straight out told the EE and CS Depts were are going to monitize you. He even did the same with drama (supposedly CMU gets royalties from the hits that came out of there like Godspell and a few others). What was the line from 'The Right Stuff' - "No bucks, no Buck Rogers." Slime like Epstein, Trump, or Michael Corleone for the matter, do look for a way to be more legitimate in the eyes of the world. Hey, new firms like Google and Amazon have hardly been immune to issues in sr leadership. So, the key is that you need to have people leading institutions that are willing to say, "wait a minute" and not let greed overtaking doing what it proper. But ... how .. you do it is as important as what you do. Henry Kissenger once said, "Money is power. But power is the ultimate aphrodisiac." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Sep 18 05:07:30 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 13:07:30 -0600 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: References: <20190917160228.19D3C18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20190917183505.GE9704@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 1:04 PM Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 2:35 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > >> I think the outrage of Epstein at MIT is more about MIT knowingly taking >> money from a convicted pedophile who had a lot of rich friends >> > > I 100% agree. This is revolting and it >>is<< a shame it has gone on and > people who should have/could have done something, have let it happen. > > But my cynical self says that it is nothing new. Look at the Kennedy's > and Harvard. None of the Kennedy's could keep their pants zipped and JFK's > father was a bootlegger during prohibition. But we have another generation > throwing money around and people are cheering. > > There was an article in today's globe about this very issue about the > schools. Large orgs, like MIT and Harvard or my own CMU and UCB, are > fueled by money. CMU always has been looking for ways to get more money > since Dick Cyert (had been head of the business school making it a top 5 > B-school became president when I was there). Cyert straight out told the EE > and CS Depts were are going to monitize you. He even did the same with > drama (supposedly CMU gets royalties from the hits that came out of there > like Godspell and a few others). > > What was the line from 'The Right Stuff' - "No bucks, no Buck Rogers." > Slime like Epstein, Trump, or Michael Corleone for the matter, do look for > a way to be more legitimate in the eyes of the world. > > Hey, new firms like Google and Amazon have hardly been immune to issues in > sr leadership. So, the key is that you need to have people leading > institutions that are willing to say, "wait a minute" and not let greed > overtaking doing what it proper. > > But ... how .. you do it is as important as what you do. > > Henry Kissenger once said, "Money is power. But power is the ultimate > aphrodisiac." > I will note that while people weren't able to do large things, he definitely wore out his welcome at several conferences where he was never invited back. There's only so many issues that you can fight in the large... They are quite tiring... Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 05:37:39 2019 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:37:39 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: <20190917183505.GE9704@mcvoy.com> References: <20190917160228.19D3C18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20190917183505.GE9704@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 2:35 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > [snip] > I think the outrage of Epstein at MIT is more about MIT knowingly taking > money from a convicted pedophile who had a lot of rich friends, and then > trying to cover it up. It's stunningly stupid that MIT would risk their > reputation over $7.5M. That's .1% of their endowment at the time. The > people involved, in my opinion, should give the money to a worthy charity > and resign for the sake of the institution. MIT doesn't deserve these > people, they need to go. > Exactly what Larry says. Polanski deserves everything that's coming to him, and the hypocrisy of some in Hollywood is odious, but MIT (and other institutions) really messed up by taking money from a known sex-offender and trying to keep it quiet. I'll admit that when I first heard about the Joi Ito thing, I thought, "it's entirely possible he didn't know about Epstein's behavior...." But then it became clear that he did and tried to cover it up. Are we going to find out the same thing about Reif? How deep does this go? They've sullied the institute's reputation for a (comparative) pittance. For an institution chock full of incredibly brilliant people, that's just some dumb shit: two bit street thugs have more sense. - Dan C. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 18 02:02:28 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. Message-ID: <20190917160228.19D3C18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Larry McVoy > If it really was just about his views, his views have been consistent > for a long time and MIT didn't care. The outrage over Epstein is so un-balanced I have a strong desire to vomit. Not that I have any feeling at all that Epstein didn't deserve what he got. My disgust is that Roman Polanksi, who did exactly the same thing to a 13-year old, was defended and lionized by a long list of entertainment world figures after his arrest in Switzerland - many of whom are now falling all over themselves to condemn Epstein. If and when the mob howling over Epstein takes out after Polanki in the exact same manner, then I'll take them seriously. Until then, they're a bunch of virtue-signalling cretins. Noel From crossd at gmail.com Thu Sep 19 07:54:43 2019 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:54:43 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Stallman resigns under pressure from CSAIL and FSF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thomas Bushnell has written thoughtfully on this: https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:56 AM Dan Cross wrote: > Richard Stallman, known colloquially as 'RMS', has resigned from MIT's > Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and the Free > Software Foundation, after making comments defending Jeffrey Epstein, the > late sexual predator. Those comments sparked wide-spread outrage across the > MIT community and beyond. > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September_2019_(Resignation) > https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns > > - Dan C. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Thu Sep 26 23:28:15 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 09:28:15 -0400 Subject: [COFF] [was TUHS] Pr1me and GT-SWT In-Reply-To: <201909260627.x8Q6RYGq017933@freefriends.org> References: <201909241945.x8OJjTCX032294@skeeve.com> <7wo8z7zj96.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0c66d8e5-ef8b-4682-b8a0-281c5c7c0359@PU1APC01FT115.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <7wblv7zid0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <201909260627.x8Q6RYGq017933@freefriends.org> Message-ID: At the risk of this drifting, it probably should move over to the COFF mailing list, which I have CC'ed. I'll do this one last one here so people not yet on COFF that want to follow up can see it. On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:27 AM wrote: > It was bizarre and ugly. The only thing that made it anywhere > near usable were the Software Tools. > Amen... (more in a minute) > > There's a reason Prime died pretty quickly once Unix started to > spread. The architecture also was strange; the characters used > mark parity (8th bit always on). > Yeah, it was an interesting box. Fast and cost-effective for its time and an excellent Fortran system which why they did as well as they did. > > My 2 cents. > > Arnold > You probably know this but you folks had a huge influence on the Pr1mates. So much so when Bill P, Paul L, and Michael S. left Pr1me to create Apollo, the used your version of the SWT as their first command system for Aegis (*a.k.a.* DOMAIN OS). They did not quite get it that they needed a real UNIX, so they roped tjt and myself from Masscomp went we all formed Belmont (*a.k.a.* Stellar in a later renaming). But they did recognize it was useful and people wanted to use that style of interface, not something dreamed up specific to that machine. I remember trying to explain to Bill the difference - he's a vision guy, but primarily a hardware type, although one of the most amazing people I have ever known. IMO: Leach never really understood the Unix ideas of being simple (which is one of the reasons why Windows has that forsaken registry sin from Aegis, he brought it with him from Apollo to MSFT). I used to argue with him about it in the 1980s (he hated/thought ASCII text files were terrible and he should control everything in some framework or privileged API). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: