From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Mar 1 02:08:38 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Noel Chiappa via TUHS) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2026 11:08:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Can PDP-11/23 PLUS run Unix? Message-ID: <20260228160838.76B2B18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Budne > V7M has overlays Ah, the CHWiki doesn't have a page for that system; I'll have to add it. Yes, it does seem to have had _kernel_ overlays before 2.9 (I looked, to see if I could find any direct credit in 2.9, to indicate that their support for kernel overlays came from V7M, but couldn't; I'm too lazy to do sources compares). I say "_kernel_ overlays" because I gather (see some evidence, below) that use-of/support-for overlays in _processes_, in user mode, preceded use-of/support-for overlays in the kernel. See: "Running Large Text Processes on Small Unix Systems", Charles Haley, William Joy, William F. Jolitz https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.9BSD/usr/doc/ovpap "We describe a set of simple modifications to the Unix system, which permit larger programs to be run than has previously been possible. In particular, the 'f77' and 'a68' compilers and version 2 of the 'ex' editor, which previously would not run on the non-separate I/D machines such as the 11/23, 11/34 and 11/40, may be run, without source code modification, using this scheme. This scheme will also allow processes larger than 65K bytes of instruction space to run on all 11/ cpu's with segmentation hardware. and: "How to use the UNIX Automatic Text Overlays: A Tutorial", Barbara Bekins, Bill Jolitz https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.9BSD/usr/doc/ovtutorial The former unfortunately does not have a date on it; the latter has a date of 10/20/81, but we can infer that the original work was before that. It does appear to be later than "The Second BSD" (1979-04); there's nothing about overlats that I could find there.. V7M contains notes that more or less state that its use-of/support-for overlays in the kernel is based on the prior support for overlays in _processes_, done at Berkeley: This directory contains the C overlay loader and some other junk. ... Covld is derived from Bill Joy's covld .. The paper in ovpap.n describes the original Berkeley overlayed text scheme which was intended for use in user mode programs. I use overlays only for the kernel itself. https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7M/src/cmd/covld/README I also have a memory that someone did some work that allowed large amounts of disk buffers (and maybe clists too), which were not statically mapped into kernel address space; one segment was used to map them in, as needed. Can anyone point me at anything which covers that? (URL's would be a big plus!) I will add all that (and this) to the appropriate places in the CHWiki. I understand that all these kludges were not really important; in the long run, they were dead ends. I just want to see them all documented, and credit correctly assigned (as above, for the code overlays). Noel From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Mar 1 04:11:21 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (segaloco via TUHS) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2026 18:11:21 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Ongoing UNIX Manual Scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thursday, February 26th, 2026 at 09:30, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > Hello, starting a new thread for a new round of UNIX manual scans I'm > going to be working up over the next few months. To start it all off, > here is the cover and introductory pages from the December, 1983 manual > UNIX System V Release 2.0 Programmer Reference Manual, known on-line as > "p_man". > > https://archive.org/details/unix-system-v-release-2-programmer-reference-manual-btl-edition > > ... > > - Matt G. > The above scan is now complete, and so I've now started on the corresponding User Manual: https://archive.org/details/unix-system-v-release-2-user-reference-manual-btl-edition Like the previous link, this is a BTL internal version that includes a number of pieces not found in the stock SVR2 manuals, including various microprocessor development tools as well as WWB. I'll let folks know when it is entirely scanned. For now, like last time, it is just the cover and man0 content until I get the manpages themselves scanned. - Matt G. From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Mar 1 08:51:24 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey via TUHS) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2026 08:51:24 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: London and Reiser's UNIX VAX port paper, reconstructed Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from "G. Branden Robinson" Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2026 16:48:08 -0600 From: "G. Branden Robinson" Subject: London and Reiser's UNIX VAX port paper, reconstructed [CCing Warren for help with my usual problems mailing the TUHS list] Hi folks, I'm pleased to report that I've "finalized" my reconstruction of London and Reiser's paper documenting the process of porting Seventh Edition Unix to the VAX-11/780. This effort started back in mid-2024, and drove numerous improvements to groff's mm package. You can find the reconstruction at GitHub, with a pre-rendered PDF under "Released". My thanks to everyone who helped; you're acknowledged in the paper itself. :) Regards, Branden ----- End forwarded message ----- From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Mar 1 08:53:04 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey via TUHS) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2026 08:53:04 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: London and Reiser's UNIX VAX port paper, reconstructed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 01, 2026 at 08:51:24AM +1000, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from "G. Branden Robinson" > I'm pleased to report that I've "finalized" my reconstruction of London > and Reiser's paper documenting the process of porting Seventh Edition > Unix to the VAX-11/780. https://github.com/g-branden-robinson/reconstructing-unix-32v-port-paper is the Github repository. Cheers, Warren From tuhs at tuhs.org Mon Mar 2 19:50:19 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Arnold Robbins via TUHS) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2026 11:50:19 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? Message-ID: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> Hello all. The CL memo was interesting, in a way. The notations are clearly much more verbose than the standard shell, and I found that a little off-putting. The memo's references refer to Marc Rochkind's 2dsh --- Marc, whatever happened to that? Are source and or the memo for it available somewhere? Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone have that memo? Just wondering, Thanks, Arnold From tuhs at tuhs.org Mon Mar 2 19:58:35 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Arnold Robbins via TUHS) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2026 02:58:35 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Arnold Robbins via TUHS wrote: > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone ... and another called Parser. ... Sheesh. Not enough coffee this morning I guess. From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 04:03:40 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (ron minnich via TUHS) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2026 11:03:40 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: there was a lisp shell ca 1977. I always liked the idea. there were a lot of shells out there, like the REX shell. On Mon, Mar 2, 2026 at 1:58 AM Arnold Robbins via TUHS wrote: > Arnold Robbins via TUHS wrote: > > > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone > > ... and another called Parser. ... > > Sheesh. Not enough coffee this morning I guess. > From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 06:59:41 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Rob Pike via TUHS) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2026 07:59:41 +1100 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: Self promotion: the v8 shell was underseen. Not really even what people want in shells these days, but in its own environment it worked well and its principle of all its output being valid shell input is missing from most interactive tools to this day. -rob On Tue, Mar 3, 2026 at 5:04 AM ron minnich via TUHS wrote: > > there was a lisp shell ca 1977. I always liked the idea. > > there were a lot of shells out there, like the REX shell. > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2026 at 1:58 AM Arnold Robbins via TUHS > wrote: > > > Arnold Robbins via TUHS wrote: > > > > > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone > > > > ... and another called Parser. ... > > > > Sheesh. Not enough coffee this morning I guess. > > From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 07:30:26 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Douglas McIlroy via TUHS) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2026 16:30:26 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? Message-ID: > there were a lot of shells out there Much to the credit of Multics innovation, brought to you by Ken's mythical man-month. Doug From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 08:11:16 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Reese Johnson via TUHS) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2026 17:11:16 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I just noticed this is the first post I've ever seen from this list. Thank you so much to the person that added me. I hope everybody has a good day today. I really love Unix. 73 DE KN4NTU - Reese On Mon, Mar 02, 2026 at 04:30:26PM -0500, Douglas McIlroy via TUHS wrote: > > there were a lot of shells out there > > Much to the credit of Multics innovation, brought to you by Ken's > mythical man-month. > > Doug From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 08:33:26 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (George Michaelson via TUHS) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2026 08:33:26 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: That "output is valid input" thing totally was what I wanted, I played with making PS1 and PS2 elements which did not prevent cut-paste making valid commands and it never quite worked for me. Not the same, but related. I think as a killer feature, that definitely counts as one. Modern shell behaviour being "nice" makes the output and command history very hard to just replay if it's a complex command. I frequently make intermediate commands in piped sequences emit shell which is then executed, because you can run it without the final | sh to see what it will do, and then do it. So my command streams in construction are often echo "thing to be done" =G On Tue, Mar 3, 2026 at 7:00 AM Rob Pike via TUHS wrote: > Self promotion: the v8 shell was underseen. Not really even what > people want in shells these days, but in its own environment it worked > well and its principle of all its output being valid shell input is > missing from most interactive tools to this day. > > -rob > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2026 at 5:04 AM ron minnich via TUHS wrote: > > > > there was a lisp shell ca 1977. I always liked the idea. > > > > there were a lot of shells out there, like the REX shell. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2026 at 1:58 AM Arnold Robbins via TUHS > > wrote: > > > > > Arnold Robbins via TUHS wrote: > > > > > > > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone > > > > > > ... and another called Parser. ... > > > > > > Sheesh. Not enough coffee this morning I guess. > > > > From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 08:45:21 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Larry McVoy via TUHS) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2026 14:45:21 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <20260302224521.GB27230@mcvoy.com> On Tue, Mar 03, 2026 at 08:33:26AM +1000, George Michaelson via TUHS wrote: > That "output is valid input" thing totally was what I wanted, I played with > making PS1 and PS2 elements which did not prevent cut-paste making valid > commands and it never quite worked for me. Not the same, but related. > > I think as a killer feature, that definitely counts as one. Modern shell > behaviour being "nice" makes the output and command history very hard to > just replay if it's a complex command. > > I frequently make intermediate commands in piped sequences emit shell which > is then executed, because you can run it without the final | sh to see what > it will do, and then do it. So my command streams in construction are often > echo "thing to be done" Isn't this sort of solved by "set -x". lm goes and tries it. Welp, not so much: $ echo foo + echo foo foo $ ls | wc + ls -C + wc 377 381 3851 The set -x doesn't keep the pipeline so yeah, I see the problem. Or one of them. From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 09:13:45 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Noel Hunt via TUHS) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2026 10:13:45 +1100 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Mar 2026 at 09:33, George Michaelson via TUHS wrote: > That "output is valid input" thing totally was what I wanted, I played with > making PS1 and PS2 elements which did not prevent cut-paste making valid > commands and it never quite worked for me. Not the same, but related. > That's why 'rc' and 'es' use ';' and ';;', respectively, as prompts. From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 09:30:56 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Paul McJones via TUHS) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2026 15:30:56 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <177249152689.1801233.9831702167961447275@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <177249152689.1801233.9831702167961447275@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <827E8BF2-FE25-4626-AE8F-512DADF33728@mcjones.org> > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2026 11:03:40 -0700 > From: ron minnich > Subject: [TUHS] Re: Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? > To: arnold at skeeve.com > Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org > > there was a lisp shell ca 1977. I always liked the idea. > > there were a lot of shells out there, like the REX shell. Here’s the paper on the LISP shell: John R. Ellis. 1980. A LISP Shell. SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 15, Issue 5 (May 1980), pages 24-34. http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/947639.947642 It was built on Forrest Howard’s Harvard Lisp for the PDP-11: https://softwarepreservation.computerhistory.org/LISP/other.html#Harvard_LISP_ From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 17:30:56 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Rob Pike via TUHS) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2026 18:30:56 +1100 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: Yes, rc shares that property at least to some extent. Try % whatis cd to see what I mean. -rob On Tue, Mar 3, 2026 at 10:14 AM Noel Hunt via TUHS wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Mar 2026 at 09:33, George Michaelson via TUHS > wrote: > > > That "output is valid input" thing totally was what I wanted, I played with > > making PS1 and PS2 elements which did not prevent cut-paste making valid > > commands and it never quite worked for me. Not the same, but related. > > > > That's why 'rc' and 'es' use ';' and ';;', respectively, as prompts. From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 18:01:54 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Arnold Robbins via TUHS) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2026 01:01:54 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202603030801.62381sHC010624@freefriends.org> It took me a while to figure out the references... Douglas McIlroy via TUHS wrote: > > there were a lot of shells out there > > Much to the credit of Multics innovation, Which was that the command interpreter was "just" a user level program that could be replaced. > brought to you by Ken's mythical man-month. The weeks when his wife was on vacation and he turned his filesystem into an OS. Did I get them right? Thanks, Arnold From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 18:06:06 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Arnold Robbins via TUHS) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2026 01:06:06 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <202603030806.623866Rd011025@freefriends.org> Thanks Marc. Warren, can this go into the archive? It seems that with the invetion of /dev/fd, David Korn managed to provide a notation for non-linear pipelines: diff <(pipeline1) <(pipeline2) sets up the two pipelines, with the standard output of each dup'ed to different file descriptors and diff sees something like diff /dev/fd/41 /dev/fd/42 Bash provides this, and will use FIFOs if /dev/fd isn't available. I'm not sure it counts as fully two dimensional. Thanks, Arnold Marc Rochkind wrote: > The 2dsh shell came up in a discussion some months ago here, and Doug > McIlroy kindly provided me with a copy of the memo, which I've attached. > > I'm sure the source is long gone. It was really just a hobby research > project for me. (I spent part of my time at Bell Labs horsing around. What > a great place to work!) > > Marc > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2026 at 2:57 AM Arnold Robbins via TUHS > wrote: > > > Hello all. > > > > The CL memo was interesting, in a way. The notations are clearly > > much more verbose than the standard shell, and I found that a little > > off-putting. > > > > The memo's references refer to Marc Rochkind's 2dsh --- Marc, whatever > > happened to that? Are source and or the memo for it available somewhere? > > > > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone > > have that memo? > > > > Just wondering, > > > > Thanks, > > > > Arnold > > From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 3 23:05:51 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via TUHS) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2026 05:05:51 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: > That "output is valid input" thing totally was what I wanted, I played with > making PS1 and PS2 elements which did not prevent cut-paste making valid > commands and it never quite worked for me. Not the same, but related. I have had this in ~/.env for as long as I can remember: cd () { command cd "$@" && setprompt } setprompt () { PS1=": `id -un`@`hostname -s`:$(pwd -L); " } export PS1 setprompt --lyndon From tuhs at tuhs.org Wed Mar 4 01:50:33 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Ron Natalie via TUHS) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2026 15:50:33 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: I always detested the CSH. The problem was the Sys5 Bourne shell didn’t support the BSD job control. So, I spent the time to figure out how it worked in csh (the kernel calls are not exactly well documented), and hacked it into /bin/sh. Even that wasn’t enough to convince my coworkers to switch as they were now using the tcsh. So, ,I put command line editing (to a better implementation having been working on gosmacs at the time) into /bin/sh. I used it for as long as I was at BRL. By the time I left, the Korn shell was beginning to make its way out of the labs. I do remember sitting at a USENIX having a nice discussion of shell internals with Dave. I also explained carefully to the guys working on one of the open source shells how it all worked so they could implement it. For a long time googling my name got shell manual pages all over the place as the programmers gave me credit. Years after the fact I was working for my intelligence imagery company and we did a lot of work with loaner equipment (our software being ultraportable we worked on MIPS, Dec Alpha, Itanium, Suns and SGIs of various configurations Apollo, HP Oki, Masspar, Cray, DG, Stellar, Ardent, NeXT, IBM (from PCs to RS/6000 to mainframes) etc…). Usually the first thing I did is port emacs (having never really learned vi I always impressed my office mates with how fast I could do stuff with ed) and one of the shells (pdksh usually). Anyhow, I’m sitting at a machine and type “fg” at the coknsole absentmindedly. It comes back with “Job Control Not Enabled”. Hmm… that sounds familiar. I type “set -J” which was the command to turn on Job Control in my version fo the SysV shell and it replies with “Job Control Enabled.” Holy crap, this is a “ron shell.” After a bit of tracing I found that Doug Gwyn had put my shell on the SystemV on BSD distribution tapes. Then Mach fully included that distribution in theirs, so every one with mach derived source had a “ron shell” for /bin/sh. From tuhs at tuhs.org Wed Mar 4 17:55:23 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Arnold Robbins via TUHS) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2026 00:55:23 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <202603040755.6247tNjQ018520@freefriends.org> Ron, Doug Gwyn distributed your changes with his "System 5 on top of BSD" tape, which we had at Georgia Tech. As I recall it, the version we had did not have command line editing, neither csh-style nor vi/emacs style. I went through your changes and backported them to the 4.2 BSD Bourne shell (Boune-gol, anyone?), and posted the diffs to USENET. I also wrote a csh-style history mechanism for the Bourne shell and I'm pretty sure posted it as well. I did other hacking on the System V shell; Rob sent me the V8 sh(1) man page and that inspired me to do a whatis command that knew how to pretty-print shell functions. I may have done a "builtin" command and changed the order so that function were found first, but I don't remember. This would all have been circa 1983-1985. In any case, Ron, I was very grateful for your efforts, as I detested csh's syntax, and refused to use it, even though it meant not having job control. Later on we got ksh86 at Georgia Tech, and I switched to that for day-to-day use, and then even later on when I was at Emory to ksh88. At some point I also made a few contributions to pdksh; my name used to be listed in the doc for it. Upon moving to Linux, Bash became my daily driver and I've been quite happy with it for well over 25 years now (thanks Chet!) Arnold Ron Natalie via TUHS wrote: > I always detested the CSH. The problem was the Sys5 Bourne shell > didn’t support the BSD job control. So, I spent the time to figure out > how it worked in csh (the kernel calls are not exactly well documented), > and hacked it into /bin/sh. Even that wasn’t enough to convince my > coworkers to switch as they were now using the tcsh. So, ,I put > command line editing (to a better implementation having been working on > gosmacs at the time) into /bin/sh. I used it for as long as I was at > BRL. By the time I left, the Korn shell was beginning to make its way > out of the labs. I do remember sitting at a USENIX having a nice > discussion of shell internals with Dave. I also explained carefully > to the guys working on one of the open source shells how it all worked > so they could implement it. For a long time googling my name got shell > manual pages all over the place as the programmers gave me credit. > > Years after the fact I was working for my intelligence imagery company > and we did a lot of work with loaner equipment (our software being > ultraportable we worked on MIPS, Dec Alpha, Itanium, Suns and SGIs of > various configurations Apollo, HP Oki, Masspar, Cray, DG, Stellar, > Ardent, NeXT, IBM (from PCs to RS/6000 to mainframes) etc…). > > Usually the first thing I did is port emacs (having never really learned > vi I always impressed my office mates with how fast I could do stuff > with ed) and one of the shells (pdksh usually). > > Anyhow, I’m sitting at a machine and type “fg” at the coknsole > absentmindedly. It comes back with “Job Control Not Enabled”. Hmm… > that sounds familiar. I type “set -J” which was the command to turn on > Job Control in my version fo the SysV shell and it replies with “Job > Control Enabled.” > Holy crap, this is a “ron shell.” After a bit of tracing I found that > Doug Gwyn had put my shell on the SystemV on BSD distribution tapes. > Then Mach fully included that distribution in theirs, so every one with > mach derived source had a “ron shell” for /bin/sh. From tuhs at tuhs.org Wed Mar 4 19:31:46 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Lars Brinkhoff via TUHS) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2026 09:31:46 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: (Ron Natalie via TUHS's message of "Tue, 03 Mar 2026 15:50:33 +0000") References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <202603020958.6229wZg6017415@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <7wikbcndod.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Ron Natalie wrote: > Even that wasn’t enough to convince my coworkers to switch as they > were now using the tcsh. I guess they wanted to feel like 10X programmers. From tuhs at tuhs.org Fri Mar 6 04:20:02 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (segaloco via TUHS) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2026 18:20:02 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Community Fund Re: AT&T UNIX VHS Backup Message-ID: Hi everyone, this is something I don't usually broach but I'm realizing there may be an opportunity here. This document stuff ain't cheap, and I've been bankrolling all my own preservation efforts for some time. I wanted to test the waters to see how folks would feel about crowdsourcing some funding for a preservation effort. I'm fully prepared to fund this myself but wanted to share: https://www.ebay.com/itm/257390793755 After the link is what may be the complete set of tapes and support materials from the AT&T Videotape Library. I posted a thread about this program previously and it seemed to be relatively unknown or at least not very discussed. Now I'm staring down the potential of landing and preserving the whole thing. Anywho my solicitation for donations to the process is for a few reasons: - The auction starts at $350, is probably going to go up significantly. - I do not currently own VHS archiving hardware, I've been waiting for an opportunity like this to make the investment, so would have more costs than just the auction itself. - Just a week ago I closed on a magtape transport with read/write heads so I can fix it up (hopefully) and start considering some magtape jobs too. Wasn't cheap, so still figuring out amortizing that one somehow. Thanks for any consideration. I don't plan on opening up the factory and showing how the sausages are made often, but this is one I want to make sure I don't miss out on over funding. I have no idea when all these VHS tapes will surface again. - Matt G. From tuhs at tuhs.org Fri Mar 6 04:28:57 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Al Kossow via TUHS) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2026 10:28:57 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Community Fund Re: AT&T UNIX VHS Backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/5/26 10:20 AM, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > I want to make sure I don't miss out on over funding. As someone who has been doing this for decades, all I can do is roll my eyes and say "wow"... From tuhs at tuhs.org Fri Mar 6 04:38:17 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (segaloco via TUHS) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2026 18:38:17 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Community Fund Re: AT&T UNIX VHS Backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thursday, March 5th, 2026 at 10:29, Al Kossow via TUHS wrote: > On 3/5/26 10:20 AM, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > I want to make sure I don't miss out on over funding. > > As someone who has been doing this for decades, all I can do is roll > my eyes and say "wow"... > > > If CHM wants to be finder here and take this over, no skin off my nose, I don't have any sort of institutional/professional backers, I'm just a guy with a flatbed scanner and some office space to setup a few more tools. - Matt G. From tuhs at tuhs.org Fri Mar 6 05:37:57 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Jason T via TUHS) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2026 13:37:57 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Community Fund Re: AT&T UNIX VHS Backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2026, 12:20 segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > I wanted to test the waters to see how folks would feel about > crowdsourcing some funding for a preservation effort. I'm fully prepared > to fund this myself but wanted to share: > > > > Is the current bid on that item yours? The seller has a lot of AT&T listings, including a few other video tape sets. I don't know what makes up the entire library (not sure if anyone does). A good strategy might be to convince him to bundle all of the tape sets for a much lower price. J From tuhs at tuhs.org Fri Mar 6 05:51:44 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (segaloco via TUHS) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2026 19:51:44 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Community Fund Re: AT&T UNIX VHS Backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6cNp_OCXLRyuo4s3OOVILSOnoiSGimqhlPos6oD0ikEWgh4ik-WSF-vXWgwDReyhpZgbXErtxFRQ0vUZ5a4xZG8xd20P3lzMEJB1MvGJjR0=@protonmail.com> On Thursday, March 5th, 2026 at 11:38, Jason T via TUHS wrote: > On Thu, Mar 5, 2026, 12:20 segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > > > > I wanted to test the waters to see how folks would feel about > > crowdsourcing some funding for a preservation effort. I'm fully prepared > > to fund this myself but wanted to share: > > > > > > > > > Is the current bid on that item yours? > > The seller has a lot of AT&T listings, including a few other video tape > sets. I don't know what makes up the entire library (not sure if anyone > does). > > A good strategy might be to convince him to bundle all of the tape sets for > a much lower price. > > J > Hah, I should pay more attention. Turns out this is someone I helped label some AT&T terminals properly (they originally had a 55C terminal listed as a 3B1 since it was in a box with a bunch 3B1 docs). Given that history they might be willing to negotiate with me...I'll shoot them a message. - Matt G. From tuhs at tuhs.org Fri Mar 6 08:16:04 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (babydr DBA James W. Laferriere via TUHS) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2026 13:16:04 -0900 (AKST) Subject: [TUHS] Community Fund Re: AT&T UNIX VHS Backup In-Reply-To: <6cNp_OCXLRyuo4s3OOVILSOnoiSGimqhlPos6oD0ikEWgh4ik-WSF-vXWgwDReyhpZgbXErtxFRQ0vUZ5a4xZG8xd20P3lzMEJB1MvGJjR0=@protonmail.com> References: <6cNp_OCXLRyuo4s3OOVILSOnoiSGimqhlPos6oD0ikEWgh4ik-WSF-vXWgwDReyhpZgbXErtxFRQ0vUZ5a4xZG8xd20P3lzMEJB1MvGJjR0=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <03f24289-bb83-3ebc-2dfe-649a7c30bc2d@baby-dragons.com> On Thu, 5 Mar 2026, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > On Thursday, March 5th, 2026 at 11:38, Jason T via TUHS wrote: > >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2026, 12:20 segaloco via TUHS wrote: >> >>> I wanted to test the waters to see how folks would feel about >>> crowdsourcing some funding for a preservation effort. I'm fully prepared >>> to fund this myself but wanted to share: >>> >>> Is the current bid on that item yours? >> >> The seller has a lot of AT&T listings, including a few other video tape >> sets. I don't know what makes up the entire library (not sure if anyone >> does). >> >> A good strategy might be to convince him to bundle all of the tape sets for >> a much lower price. >> >> J > > Hah, I should pay more attention. Turns out this is someone I helped label some AT&T terminals properly (they originally had a 55C terminal listed as a 3B1 since it was in a box with a bunch 3B1 docs). > > Given that history they might be willing to negotiate with me...I'll shoot them a message. > > - Matt G. Did someone here grab this ??? https://www.ebay.com/itm/257380939623 Cuase it is sold now , But shows '0'(Zero) bids . Tia , JimL -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | James W. Laferriere | System Techniques | Give me VMS | | Network & System Engineer | 3237 Holden Road | Give me Linux | | jiml at system-techniques.com | Fairbanks, AK. 99709 | only on AXP | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 03:38:45 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Alex Bochannek via TUHS) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2026 09:38:45 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> Message-ID: Arnold Robbins via TUHS writes: > Hello all. > > The CL memo was interesting, in a way. The notations are clearly > much more verbose than the standard shell, and I found that a little > off-putting. > > The memo's references refer to Marc Rochkind's 2dsh --- Marc, whatever > happened to that? Are source and or the memo for it available somewhere? > > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone > have that memo? I received the scans of the 2dsh and the Parser memos. The Parser scan is pretty poor quality, but legible. What's interesting is that Parser makes reference to both the TOPS-20/TENEX EXEC as well as the Interlisp history facility. The latter of which is where C-Shell got its inspiration from as well. I noticed the location listed for Marc Rochkind is WH, which suspect was Whippany. But it lists "DR" for Blewett and Rader. What was the DR location of Bell Labs? -- Alex. From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 05:56:53 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Marc Rochkind via TUHS) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2026 12:56:53 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> Message-ID: WH was indeed Whippany. DR was Denver (Westminster, CO, actually). Marc On Fri, Mar 6, 2026 at 10:40 AM Alex Bochannek via TUHS wrote: > Arnold Robbins via TUHS writes: > > > Hello all. > > > > The CL memo was interesting, in a way. The notations are clearly > > much more verbose than the standard shell, and I found that a little > > off-putting. > > > > The memo's references refer to Marc Rochkind's 2dsh --- Marc, whatever > > happened to that? Are source and or the memo for it available somewhere? > > > > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone > > have that memo? > > I received the scans of the 2dsh and the Parser memos. The Parser scan > is pretty poor quality, but legible. What's interesting is that Parser > makes reference to both the TOPS-20/TENEX EXEC as well as the Interlisp > history facility. The latter of which is where C-Shell got its > inspiration from as well. > > I noticed the location listed for Marc Rochkind is WH, which suspect was > Whippany. But it lists "DR" for Blewett and Rader. What was the DR > location of Bell Labs? > > -- > Alex. > From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 06:23:44 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Warner Losh via TUHS) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2026 13:23:44 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> Message-ID: Was DR the weird "satellite dish building" on 120th? Warner On Fri, Mar 6, 2026 at 12:57 PM Marc Rochkind via TUHS wrote: > WH was indeed Whippany. DR was Denver (Westminster, CO, actually). > > Marc > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2026 at 10:40 AM Alex Bochannek via TUHS > wrote: > > > Arnold Robbins via TUHS writes: > > > > > Hello all. > > > > > > The CL memo was interesting, in a way. The notations are clearly > > > much more verbose than the standard shell, and I found that a little > > > off-putting. > > > > > > The memo's references refer to Marc Rochkind's 2dsh --- Marc, whatever > > > happened to that? Are source and or the memo for it available > somewhere? > > > > > > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone > > > have that memo? > > > > I received the scans of the 2dsh and the Parser memos. The Parser scan > > is pretty poor quality, but legible. What's interesting is that Parser > > makes reference to both the TOPS-20/TENEX EXEC as well as the Interlisp > > history facility. The latter of which is where C-Shell got its > > inspiration from as well. > > > > I noticed the location listed for Marc Rochkind is WH, which suspect was > > Whippany. But it lists "DR" for Blewett and Rader. What was the DR > > location of Bell Labs? > > > > -- > > Alex. > > > From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 07:17:55 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (=?utf-8?q?Cameron_M=C3=AD=C4=8Be=C3=A1l_Tyre_via_TUHS?=) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2026 21:17:55 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Almquist shell Message-ID: For those interested in different shells, I discovered ash, the Almquist shell, while learning how to hack my WiFi extender. I found this page about it: https://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/various/ash/ Which contains a thank you to TUHS for archiving the traditional BSDs and 386BSD. Have a safe and interesting weekend, Cameron From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 08:56:18 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (=?utf-8?q?Cameron_M=C3=AD=C4=8Be=C3=A1l_Tyre_via_TUHS?=) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2026 22:56:18 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Almquist shell In-Reply-To: <75527984-a68e-6709-68ba-a1ffc375b5c5@makerlisp.com> References: <75527984-a68e-6709-68ba-a1ffc375b5c5@makerlisp.com> Message-ID: Thank you. I read about its performance giving faster shell script execution. I am just about to disappear down the Busybox rabbit hole but that's one for the COFF, I think. Best regards, Cameron -------- Original Message -------- On Friday, 03/06/26 at 22:35 Luther Johnson wrote: In recent releases, Debian has used a version of this shell they call 'dash', in their start-up scripts, so they are running in a strictly Bourne compatible shell, and so "bash-isms" don't creep into their scripts - before switching to dash, they were using bash. dash/ash probably helps with script performance, too. From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 09:57:50 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Marc Rochkind via TUHS) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2026 16:57:50 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> Message-ID: Sort of. The building that was there when I got there in 1980 was much plainer, and behind it was a huge Western Electric factory that made PBXs. Much later, various parts of the Bell System changed hands, and a company called Avaya (or something like that) built that building in front. On Fri, Mar 6, 2026 at 1:23 PM Warner Losh wrote: > Was DR the weird "satellite dish building" on 120th? > > Warner > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2026 at 12:57 PM Marc Rochkind via TUHS > wrote: > >> WH was indeed Whippany. DR was Denver (Westminster, CO, actually). >> >> Marc >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2026 at 10:40 AM Alex Bochannek via TUHS >> wrote: >> >> > Arnold Robbins via TUHS writes: >> > >> > > Hello all. >> > > >> > > The CL memo was interesting, in a way. The notations are clearly >> > > much more verbose than the standard shell, and I found that a little >> > > off-putting. >> > > >> > > The memo's references refer to Marc Rochkind's 2dsh --- Marc, whatever >> > > happened to that? Are source and or the memo for it available >> somewhere? >> > > >> > > Also it refers to a shell by Blewett and arder called Parser. Anyone >> > > have that memo? >> > >> > I received the scans of the 2dsh and the Parser memos. The Parser scan >> > is pretty poor quality, but legible. What's interesting is that Parser >> > makes reference to both the TOPS-20/TENEX EXEC as well as the Interlisp >> > history facility. The latter of which is where C-Shell got its >> > inspiration from as well. >> > >> > I noticed the location listed for Marc Rochkind is WH, which suspect was >> > Whippany. But it lists "DR" for Blewett and Rader. What was the DR >> > location of Bell Labs? >> > >> > -- >> > Alex. >> > >> > From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 10:00:28 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Rich Salz via TUHS) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2026 19:00:28 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Almquist shell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And of course, don't forget the adventure shell. Get Doug Gwyn's copy from https://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/shells/ From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 15:32:55 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Lars Brinkhoff via TUHS) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2026 05:32:55 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: (Alex Bochannek via TUHS's message of "Fri, 06 Mar 2026 09:38:45 -0800") References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <7wtsuskxvc.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Alex Bochannek wrote: > What's interesting is that Parser makes reference to both the > TOPS-20/TENEX EXEC as well as the Interlisp history facility. Is that scan available somewhere online? From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Mar 7 15:34:26 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Lars Brinkhoff via TUHS) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2026 05:34:26 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Almquist shell In-Reply-To: (Rich Salz via TUHS's message of "Fri, 6 Mar 2026 19:00:28 -0500") References: Message-ID: <7wpl5gkxst.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Rich Salz wrote: > And of course, don't forget the adventure shell. Get Doug Gwyn's copy from > https://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/shells/ GET LAMP retrieves a web server suite. From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Mar 8 05:19:10 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Alex Bochannek via TUHS) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2026 11:19:10 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Other Bell Labs shells from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <7wtsuskxvc.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <202603020950.6229oMxK017045@freefriends.org> <7wtsuskxvc.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Lars Brinkhoff writes: > Alex Bochannek wrote: >> What's interesting is that Parser makes reference to both the >> TOPS-20/TENEX EXEC as well as the Interlisp history facility. > > Is that scan available somewhere online? If anybody has an upload location where these documents ultimately make it into the TUHS archives, please let me know! -- Alex. From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Mar 8 17:40:36 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Arnold Robbins via TUHS) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2026 00:40:36 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Almquist shell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202603080740.6287ea6F068845@freefriends.org> Rich Salz via TUHS wrote: > And of course, don't forget the adventure shell. Get Doug Gwyn's copy from > https://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/shells/ Relatively recently I found a C rewrite of that shell that I did. (Something I'd totally forgotten.) I think I'd have posted it to USENET but I don't remember. I really must have had too much time on my hands... :-) From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Mar 8 17:51:20 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Arnold Robbins via TUHS) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2026 00:51:20 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] 2dsh doc uploaded to TUHS archive Message-ID: <202603080751.6287pK4F069542@freefriends.org> Giving credit where credit is due: - Doug McIlroy sent Marc Rochkind a scan of the 2dsh memo - Marc sent it to me - Clem Cole asked me for it - Clem placed it into the archive See https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/Papers/2dsh.pdf Arnold From tuhs at tuhs.org Mon Mar 9 00:42:49 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (=?utf-8?q?Cameron_M=C3=AD=C4=8Be=C3=A1l_Tyre_via_TUHS?=) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2026 14:42:49 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: Happy Bell Birthday Message-ID: Hello everyone, The following was posted, yesterday evening on the ICON [Insulator Collectors On the Net] mailing list. Have a safe Sunday! Cameron ---begin included message-- March 7, 2026 at 6:14 PM Today is the 150th anniv of the Bell System founding Jack Snyder, Erie, MI ---end included message--- From tuhs at tuhs.org Mon Mar 9 03:06:21 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Marc Rochkind via TUHS) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2026 11:06:21 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] 2dsh doc uploaded to TUHS archive In-Reply-To: <202603080751.6287pK4F069542@freefriends.org> References: <202603080751.6287pK4F069542@freefriends.org> Message-ID: Thanks! On Sun, Mar 8, 2026 at 12:51 AM Arnold Robbins via TUHS wrote: > Giving credit where credit is due: > > - Doug McIlroy sent Marc Rochkind a scan of the 2dsh memo > - Marc sent it to me > - Clem Cole asked me for it > - Clem placed it into the archive > > See https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/Papers/2dsh.pdf > > Arnold > From tuhs at tuhs.org Mon Mar 9 04:13:04 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Clem Cole via TUHS) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2026 14:13:04 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] 2dsh doc uploaded to TUHS archive In-Reply-To: References: <202603080751.6287pK4F069542@freefriends.org> Message-ID: Most welcome. Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual On Sun, Mar 8, 2026 at 1:06 PM Marc Rochkind via TUHS wrote: > Thanks! > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2026 at 12:51 AM Arnold Robbins via TUHS > wrote: > > > Giving credit where credit is due: > > > > - Doug McIlroy sent Marc Rochkind a scan of the 2dsh memo > > - Marc sent it to me > > - Clem Cole asked me for it > > - Clem placed it into the archive > > > > See https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/Papers/2dsh.pdf > > > > Arnold > > > From tuhs at tuhs.org Mon Mar 9 21:42:27 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (John Levine via TUHS) Date: 9 Mar 2026 17:12:27 +0530 Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: Happy Bell Birthday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20260309114227.4739BFB9A6C2@ary.local> It appears that Cameron Mí� eál Tyre via TUHS said: >March 7, 2026 at 6:14 PM > >Today is the 150th anniv of the Bell System founding Not really. It's the date that Bell's original telephone patent was issued. I'd say the Bell System was created on December 30, 1899 when a reverse merger made AT&T the parent company of the local and long distance companies. R's, John From tuhs at tuhs.org Mon Mar 9 23:22:07 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Chet Ramey via TUHS) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2026 09:22:07 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Almquist shell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c5dc7d5-18f3-41f5-830f-0a698fb1e451@case.edu> On 3/6/26 7:00 PM, Rich Salz via TUHS wrote: > And of course, don't forget the adventure shell. Get Doug Gwyn's copy from > https://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/shells/ I used to ship this with bash, up through bash-4.2. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet at case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 10 05:04:54 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (segaloco via TUHS) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2026 19:04:54 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] UNIX and USB Message-ID: So USB hits the scene in the mid-90s, the raucous 80s of UNIX had come to a close by this point and many original actors and architects were on to bigger and brighter things. In other words, the folks who designed terminal handling, block and character I/O, etc. were long since "retired" from helming the UNIX ship. This has me wondering, when USB hit the market, was there any attempt at a grand, unified "this is how UNIX does USB" around the industry or was implementation of drivers and interfacing largely left to individual shops? The reason I ask is I'm currently working up some tooling in the UNIX tradition for interacting with the RP2040 microcontroller (as opposed to their picotool and pico-sdk which are bulkier than what I want). What I'm currently tinkering with is something dd(1)-like that allows indicating things like I/O direction, packet type (control, bulk, etc.), payload, etc. for a very basic generic USB operation that could then be used on /dev files, as opposed to my current approach of writing a libusb-oriented monolith. Was there ever any sort of canonical basic USB packet tools operating on /dev entries in the UNIX ecosystem? Something making USB packet I/O a shell affair rather than libusb or custom kernel stuff/ioctls in a C application? Getting this far down into USB is pretty fresh for me BTW, so pardon any incorrect assumptions (e.g. whether stateless, individual process invocations could even reliably issue sequential USB transfers without potential transients introduced between invocations, claims and halt states between processes, etc.). - Matt G. From tuhs at tuhs.org Tue Mar 10 05:29:37 2026 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Warner Losh via TUHS) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2026 13:29:37 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] UNIX and USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2026 at 1:05 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > So USB hits the scene in the mid-90s, the raucous 80s of UNIX had come to > a close by this point and many original actors and architects were on to > bigger and brighter things. In other words, the folks who designed > terminal handling, block and character I/O, etc. were long since "retired" > from helming the UNIX ship. > > This has me wondering, when USB hit the market, was there any attempt at a > grand, unified "this is how UNIX does USB" around the industry or was > implementation of drivers and interfacing largely left to individual shops? > > The reason I ask is I'm currently working up some tooling in the UNIX > tradition for interacting with the RP2040 microcontroller (as opposed to > their picotool and pico-sdk which are bulkier than what I want). What I'm > currently tinkering with is something dd(1)-like that allows indicating > things like I/O direction, packet type (control, bulk, etc.), payload, etc. > for a very basic generic USB operation that could then be used on /dev > files, as opposed to my current approach of writing a libusb-oriented > monolith. > > Was there ever any sort of canonical basic USB packet tools operating on > /dev entries in the UNIX ecosystem? Something making USB packet I/O a > shell affair rather than libusb or custom kernel stuff/ioctls in a C > application? > > Getting this far down into USB is pretty fresh for me BTW, so pardon any > incorrect assumptions (e.g. whether stateless, individual process > invocations could even reliably issue sequential USB transfers without > potential transients introduced between invocations, claims and halt states > between processes, etc.). > libusb has been the convergencec point for different implementations. The BSDs share a common API (more or less) because the original version was copied, but then diverged. Linux did its own thing. Other sytems also do their own thing, though some did port Linux or BSD stack over and diverge. There never was any attempt to make this be packet driven because that was a poor fit with ohci/uhci devices IIRC. That is, you couldn't really get the packats like that and even if you could the different endpoints and the need to configure made things complicated. Of course, this is me watching from the sidelines, so maybe I missed something? Warner