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Re: [TUHS] Re: SDF Beget's ICM - Interim Computer Museum

by Lars Brinkhoff

I think this is off topic for TUHS and more appropriate for COFF. Gregg Levine wrote: > Pardon me for asking Clem, but would you mind naming the survivors? I > have an idea what these Toads are, and of course what Multics happened > to be, but that's it. We don't know exactly yet, but according to the video, there's a VAX 7000 and a DEC-2020. The TOAD computers are XKL's PDP-10 remake; there's also another one called SC-40. Stephen also mentions Multics tapes were rescued. Maybe the best way to see what is there right now, is to dial into "ssh menu(a)sdf.org" [-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-] -+- SDF Vintage Systems REMOTE ACCESS -+- [-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-] [a] multics Multics MR12.8 Honeywell 6180 [b] toad-2 TOPS-20 7(110131)-1 XKL TOAD-2 [c] twenex TOPS-20 7(63327)-6 XKL TOAD-2 [d] sc40 TOPS-20 7(21733) SC Group SC40 [e] lc ITS ver 1648 PDP-10 KS10 [f] ka1050 TOPS-10 6.03a sim KA10 1050 [g] kl2065 TOPS-10 7.04 sim KL10 2065 [h] rosenkrantz OpenVMS 7.3 VAX 7000-640 [i] tss8 TSS/8 PDP-8/e [j] ibm4361 VM/SP5 Hercules 4361 [k] ibm7094 CTSS i7094 [l] cdc6500 NOS 1.3 DTCyber CDC-6500 [z] bitzone NetBSD BBS AMD64 [1] Proceed to the UNIX Systems sub-menu [2] Information about Vintage Systems at SDF.ORG And the Unix section: [a] misspiggy UNIX v7 PDP-11/70 [c] lcm3b2 UNIX SVR3.2.3 AT&T 3B2/1000-70 [d] guildenstern BSD 4.3 simh MicroVAX 3900 [e] snake BSD 2.11 PDP-11/84 [f] hkypux HP/UX 10.20 HP9000/715 [g] truly TRU64 5.0 DEC Alpha 500au [h] three SunOS 4.1.1 Sun-3/160 [i] indy IRIX 6.5 SGI Indy R5000 [j] ultra Ultrix 4.5 simh MicroVAX 3900

11 months, 1 week

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SDF Beget's ICM - Interim Computer Museum

by Clem Cole

Please excuse the wide distribution, but I suspect this will have general interest in all of these communities due to the loss of the LCM+Labs. The good folks from SDF.org are trying to create the Interim Computer Museum: https://icm.museum/join.html As Lars pointed out in an earlier message to COFF there is a 1hr presentation on the plans for the ICM. https://toobnix.org/w/ozjGgBQ28iYsLTNbrczPVo FYI: The yearly (Bootstrap) subscription is $36 They need to money to try to keep some of these systems online and available. The good news is that it looks like many of the assets, such as Miss Piggy, the Multics work, the Toads, and others, from the old LCM are going to be headed to a new home. ᐧ

11 months, 1 week

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Commodity hardware for paper terminal experience

by Sijmen J. Mulder

Hi all, Some time ago I dived into ed and tried programming with it a bit. It was an interesting experience but I feel like the scrolling visual terminal can't properly emulate the paper terminal. You can't do rip out a printout and put it next to you, scribble on it, etc. I'd like to try replicating the experience more closely but I'm not interested in acquiring collector's items or complex mechanical hardware. There don't seem to be contemporary equivalents of the TI Silent 700 so I've been looking at are standalone printing devices to combine with a keyboard. But the best I can find is line printing, which is unsuitable for input. Any suggestions? Sijmen

11 months, 1 week

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Re: [TUHS] Re: UNIX Roff Manual

by John R Levine

> Yeah, I wasn't specific enough. > The ownership of the model 67 changed to the State of NJ, but it was > operated and present at Princeton, until replaced by a 370/158, which in > turn changed owners back to Princeton in 75. > > What OS did you use on the 67? On the /67 I used TSS with a free account they gave me for being in a local computer club. On the /91 I mostly used the free stuff but one summer in the early 70s I had a job speeding up an Ecom professor's Fortran model. Compiling it with Fortran H rather than G, and adjusting an assembler routine that managed an external file not to open and close the file on every call helped a lot. Paul Hilfinger had a long career at UC Berkeley and is easy to find if you want to ask him if he has any of his old papers. R's, John > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 6:58 PM John Levine <johnl(a)taugh.com> wrote: > >> It appears that Tom Lyon <pugs78(a)gmail.com> said: >>> -=-=-=-=-=- >>> >>> Jonathan - awesome! >>> Some Princeton timing: the 360/67 arrived in 1967, but was replaced in the >>> summer of 1969 by the 360/91. >> >> No, the /67 and /91 were there at the same time. I used them both in high >> school. >> I graduated in 1971 so that must have been 1969 to 71, and when I left I'm >> pretty >> sure both were still there. >> >> R's, >> John >> >> >>> BWK must've got started on the 7094 that preceded the 67, but since it was >>> FORTRAN the port wasn't hard. >>> Now I wonder what Paul Hilfinger did and whether it was still FORTRAN. >>> >>> I graduated in 1978, ROFF usage was still going strong! >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 5:42 PM Jonathan Gray <jsg(a)jsg.id.au> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 09:45:57PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: >>>>> On Wednesday, July 17th, 2024 at 1:51 PM, segaloco < >>>> segaloco(a)protonmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just sharing a copy of the Roff Manual that I had forgotten I >> scanned a little while back: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://archive.org/details/roff_manual

11 months, 3 weeks

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Re: ancient macros, machine code translation,as mental architecture models

by Douglas McIlroy

In 1959, when Doug Eastwood and I, at the suggestion of George Mealy, set out to add macro capability to SAP (Share assembly program), the word "macro"--short for "macroinstruction"--was in the air, though none of us had ever seen a macroprocessor. We were particularly aware that GE had a macro-capable assembler. I still don't know where or when the term was coined. Does anybody know? We never considered anything but recursive expansion, where macro definitions can contain macro calls; thus the TX-0 model comes as quite a surprise. We kept a modest stack of the state of each active macro expansion. We certainly did not foresee that within a few years some applications would need a 70-level stack! General stack-based programming was not common practice (and the term "stack" did not yet exist). This caused disaster the first time we wrote a macro that generated a macro definition, because a data-packing subroutine with remembered state, which was used during both definition and expansion, was not reentrant. To overcome the bug we had in effect to introduce another small stack to keep the two uses out of each other's way. Luckily there were no more collisions between expansion and definition. Moreover, this stack needed to hold only one suspended state because expansion could trigger definition but not vice versa. Interestingly, the problem in the previous paragraph is still with us 65 years later in many programming languages. To handle it gracefully, one needs coroutines or higher-order functions. Doug

11 months, 3 weeks

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The inexorable passage of time

by Adam Thornton

I was idly leafing through Padlipsky's _Elements Of Network Style_ the other day, and on page 72, he was imagining a future in which a cigar-box sized PDP-10 would be exchanging data with a breadbox-sized S/370. And here we are, only 40 years later, and 3 of my PDP-10s and my S/370 are all running on the same cigarette-pack sized machine, which cost something like $75 ($25 in 1984 dollars). Adam

11 months, 3 weeks

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Re: machine code translation,as mental architecture models

by Douglas McIlroy

> the DEC PDP-1 MACRO assembler manual says that a macro call > is expanded by copying the *sequence of 'storage words' and > advancing the current location (.) for each word copied* > I am quite surprised. I am, too. It seems that expansion is not recursive. And that it can only allocate storage word by word, not in larger blocks. Doug

11 months, 3 weeks

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Re: machine code translation,as mental architecture models

by Douglas McIlroy

> Well, doesn't it depend on whether VAX MACRO kept the macros as > high-level entities when translating them, or if it processed macros in > the familiar way into instructions that sat at the same level as > hand-written ‘assembler’. I don't think this thread has made that clear > so far. The Multics case that I cited was definitely in the latter category. There was no "translator". Effectively there were just two different macro packages applied to the same source file. In more detail, there were very similar assemblers for the original IBM machines and the new GE machines. Since they didn't have "include" facilities, there were actually two source files that differed only in their macro definitions. The act of translation was to supply the latter set of definitions--a notably larger set than the former (which may well have been empty). Doug

11 months, 3 weeks

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Re: [TUHS] Re: machine code translation,as mental architecture models

by Dan Cross

On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 9:54 PM John R Levine <johnl(a)taugh.com> wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jul 2024, Dan Cross wrote: > > It's not clear to me why you suggest with such evident authority that > > Knuth was referring only to serialized instruction emulation and not > > something like JIT'ed code; true, he doesn't specify one way or the > > other, but I find it specious to conclude that that implies the > > technique wasn't already in use, or at least known. > > The code on pages 205 to 211 shows an instruction by instruction > interpreter. I assume Knuth knew about JIT compiling since Lisp systems > had been doing it since the 1960s, but that's not what this section of the > book is about. Sure. But we're trying to date the topic here; my point is that JITing was well known, and simulation was similarly well known; we know when work on those books started; it doesn't seem that odd to me that combining the two would be known around that time as well. > One of the later volumes of TAOCP was supposed to be about > compiling, but it seems unlikely he'll have time to write it. Yes; volumes 5, 6 and 7 are to cover parsing, languages, and compilers (more or less respectively). Sadly, I suspect you are right that it's unlikely he will have time to write them. > >> We've been discussing batch or JIT translation of code which gives > >> much better performance without a lot of hardware help. > > > > JIT'd performance of binary transliteration is certainly going to be > > _better_ than strict emulation, but it is unlikely to be _as good_ as > > native code. > > Well, sure, except in odd cases like the Vax compiler and reoptimizer > someone mentioned a few messages back. I think the point about the VAX compiler is that it's an actual compiler and that the VAX MACRO-32 _language_ is treated as a "high level" programming language, rather than as a macro assembly language. That's not doing binary->binary translation, that's doing source->binary compilation. It's just that, in this case, the source language happens to look like assembler for an obsolete computer. - Dan C.

11 months, 3 weeks

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Re: [TUHS] Re: history of machine code translation,as mental architecture models

by Dan Cross

On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 1:35 PM John R Levine <johnl(a)taugh.com> wrote: > On Sat, 13 Jul 2024, Dan Cross wrote: > > Honeywell was doing it with their "Liberator" software on the > > Honeywell 200 computer in, at least, 1966: > > https://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/series200/charlie_gibbs/012_Series_200_… > > (See the section on, "Conversion Compatibility."). Given that that > > document was published in February of 1966, it stands to reason work > > started on that earlier, in at least 1965 if not before ... > > Good thought. Now that you mention it, I recall that there were a lot of > Autocoder to X translators, where X was anything from another machine > to Cobol. Of course I can't find any of them now but they must have been > around the same time. > > R's, > John > > PS: For you young folks, Autocoder was the IBM 1401 assembler. There were > other Autocoders but that was by far the most popular because the 1401 was > the most popular computer of the late 1950s. Oops, it appears that I inadvertently forgot to Cc: COFF in my earlier reply to John. Mea culpa. For context, here's my complete earlier message; the TL;DR is that Honeywell was doing binary translation from the 1401 to the H-200 sometime in 1965 or earlier; possibly as early as 1963, according to some sources. -->BEGIN<-- Honeywell was doing it with their "Liberator" software on the Honeywell 200 computer in, at least, 1966: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/series200/charlie_gibbs/012_Series_200_… (See the section on, "Conversion Compatibility."). Given that that document was published in February of 1966, it stands to reason work started on that earlier, in at least 1965 if not before (how much earlier is unclear). According to Wikipedia, that machine was introduced in late 1963; it's unclear whether the Liberator software was released at the same time, however. Ease of translation of IBM 1401 instructions appears to have been a design goal. At least some sources suggest that Liberator shipped with the H-200 in 1963 (https://ibm-1401.info/1401-Competition.html#UsingLib) It seemed like what Doug was describing earlier was still source->binary translation, using some clever macro packages. -->END<-- - Dan C.

11 months, 3 weeks

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