>From Clem Cole <[email-masked]> Sat Feb 17 01:03:11 2018
From: Clem Cole <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:03:11 -0500
To: Aharon Robbins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Do Interface specifications such POSIX or the LSB Still
	Matter
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <[email-masked]>
Sender: "TUHS" <[email-masked]>
Status: RO

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Aharon - is this article you were referring:  POSIX Has Become Outdated:
Atlidakis, Andrus & Geambasu
<https://www.usenix.org/system/files/login/articles/login_fall16_02_atlidak=
is.pdf>

I have it and have read it.   It is a great piece and I think spot on for
new(er) applications being written fresh for Mac OSx, Android, *etc.*

I'm personally poking at this from the large (clustered) view of a
commercial ISV (think in Geo Sciences, Mech E CAD, Fluids, Chem, or
Financial) that has valuable code (much still in Fortran BTW).  More over
their customers have huge amounts of data developed over 30-40 years using
those codes, so if you magically tried to replace the codes, you need to
revalidate the data too.

So how do your define/agree upon/build interfaces that that ISV can trust
and an IHV/OEM can use to sell systems, particularly for the commercial
part of the market.  The very high end (national labs/high energy physics
types) write their own code.   But the main part of the commercial
scientific community does not.

POSIX.1 and LSB certainly helped to solve a set of problems.   But it seems
like the developers of the systems don't care any more.  They have a use my
'framework' and my app store mentality.    Which sort of is working for
mass market where you sell millions of copies.

The problem is that those codes were all developed when an older market
model and market model has changed as the market great to include a new
group of players.  The problem is that the market does not care much for
that older portion of the total market these days, so their model is
squeezed.    But as I said, even if magically new codes appeared to replace
the old ones, the old data is still an issue.

Clem
=E1=90=A7

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 6:28 AM, <[email-masked]> wrote:

> There was an article about this in ;login: in 2015 if I recall
> correctly. Worth trying to find.  The issue is a real one.
>
> HTH,
>
> Arnold
>
> Clem Cole <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> > I've send a couple of you private messages with some more details of wh=
y
> I
> > ask this, but I'll bring the large question to debate here:
> >
> >
> > ???Have POSIX and???
> > LSB lost
> > ???their
> >  usefulness/relevance?  If so, we know ISV???s like Ansys are not going
> to go
> > ???FOSS??? and make their sources available (ignore religious beliefs,
> it just
> > is not their business model); how to we get that level of precision to
> > allow
> > ???the part of the
> >  market
> > ??? that will be 'binary only' continue to
> >  create applications?
> >
> > Seriously, please try to stay away from religion on this
> > ??? question.   Clearly, there are a large number of ISVs have
> traditionally
> > used interface specifications.  To me it started with things like the o=
ld
> > Cobol and Fortran standards for the languages.   That was not good enou=
gh
> > since the systems diverge, and /usr/group then IEEE/ANSI/ISO did Posix.
> >
> >
> > Clearly, Posix enabled Unix implementations such a Linux to shine,
> although
> > Linux does not doggedly follow it.  Apple was once Posix conformant, bu=
t
> > I'd not think they worry to much about it.   Linux created LSB, but I s=
ee
> > fewer and fewer references to it.
> >
> > I worry that without a real binary definition, it's darned hard (at lea=
st
> > in the higher end of the business that I live day-to-day) to get ISV's =
to
> > care.
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> > Clem
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif">Aharon - is this article you were referring:=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://www.usenix.org/system/files/login/articles/login_fall=
16_02_atlidakis.pdf">POSIX Has Become Outdated:   Atlidakis, Andrus &amp; G=
eambasu</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I have it and have read it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It=
 is a great piece and I think spot on for new(er) applications being writte=
n fresh for Mac OSx, Android, <i>etc.</i>=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I&#39;=
m personally poking at this from the large (clustered) view of a commercial=
 ISV (think in Geo Sciences, Mech E CAD, Fluids, Chem, or Financial) that h=
as valuable code (much still in Fortran BTW).=C2=A0 More over their custome=
rs have huge amounts of data developed over 30-40 years using those codes, =
so if you magically tried to replace the codes, you need to revalidate the =
data too.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So how do your define/agree upon/build inter=
faces that that ISV can trust and an IHV/OEM can use to sell systems, parti=
cularly for the commercial part of the market.=C2=A0 The very high end (nat=
ional labs/high energy physics types) write their own code.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But=
 the main part of the commercial scientific community does not.</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif">POSIX.1 and LSB certainly helped to solve a set of p=
roblems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But it seems like the developers of the systems don&#3=
9;t care any more.=C2=A0 They have a use my &#39;framework&#39; and my app =
store mentality.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Which sort of is working for mass market wher=
e you sell millions of copies.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The problem is th=
at those codes were all developed when an older market model and market mod=
el has changed as the market great to include a new group of players.=C2=A0=
 The problem is that the market does not care much for that older portion o=
f the total market these days, so their model is squeezed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But=
 as I said, even if magically new codes appeared to replace the old ones, t=
he old data is still an issue.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Clem</div></div><div hs=
pace=3D"streak-pt-mark" style=3D"max-height:1px"><img alt=3D"" style=3D"wid=
th:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src=3D"https://mailfoogae.appspot.co=
m/t?sender=3DaY2xlbWNAY2NjLmNvbQ%3D%3D&amp;type=3Dzerocontent&amp;guid=3D49=
7ffc85-efbb-481b-beb9-ce306e831148"><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=
=90=A7</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 6:28 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">There was an article about this in ;lo=
gin: in 2015 if I recall<br>
correctly. Worth trying to find.=C2=A0 The issue is a real one.<br>
<br>
HTH,<br>
<br>
Arnold<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
Clem Cole &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
<br>
&gt; I&#39;ve send a couple of you private messages with some more details =
of why I<br>
&gt; ask this, but I&#39;ll bring the large question to debate here:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</span>&gt; ???Have POSIX and???<br>
&gt; LSB lost<br>
&gt; ???their<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 usefulness/relevance?=C2=A0 If so, we know ISV???s like Ansys ar=
e not going to go<br>
&gt; ???FOSS??? and make their sources available (ignore religious beliefs,=
 it just<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt; is not their business model); how to we get that leve=
l of precision to<br>
&gt; allow<br>
</span>&gt; ???the part of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 market<br>
&gt; ??? that will be &#39;binary only&#39; continue to<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt;=C2=A0 create applications?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Seriously, please try to stay away from religion on this<br>
</span>&gt; ??? question.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Clearly, there are a large number of =
ISVs have traditionally<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; used interface specifications.=
=C2=A0 To me it started with things like the old<br>
&gt; Cobol and Fortran standards for the languages.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That was no=
t good enough<br>
&gt; since the systems diverge, and /usr/group then IEEE/ANSI/ISO did Posix=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Clearly, Posix enabled Unix implementations such a Linux to shine, alt=
hough<br>
&gt; Linux does not doggedly follow it.=C2=A0 Apple was once Posix conforma=
nt, but<br>
&gt; I&#39;d not think they worry to much about it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Linux creat=
ed LSB, but I see<br>
&gt; fewer and fewer references to it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I worry that without a real binary definition, it&#39;s darned hard (a=
t least<br>
&gt; in the higher end of the business that I live day-to-day) to get ISV&#=
39;s to<br>
&gt; care.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What do you folks think?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Clem<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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