Steven M. Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
Sun Nov 22 19:00:06 AEST 1998
> From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
> To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
All caps? Must be using a V(erbose)M(essage)S(system) confuser - didn't
know there were any left :-) :-)
> Exactly. The details are all in tmscpboot.c. Prepend this to the
> "tape directory", write it to TK50, B MUA0, and you're at the "="
Since PUPS is on a uVax kick at the moment I'll chime in with my
(not so fond) memories of trying to jack 4.3-Reno onto a uVax-II.
It was a perverse sort of fun but not something I'd willingly do
again. Burnout? Perhaps.
the base 4.3 system up to and including Tahoe couldn't be cold started
on a KA630 (much less a 650 since that didn't exist yet ;)). You _had_
to have the Ultrix 'boot' bits&pieces to work with. The 4.3 kernel
had uVax support in it but the boot stuff did not.
With 4.3-Reno that changed but... As others have noticed the
cold start kit didn't create tapes suitable for a uVax.
> prompt, from which you can execute the standalone images. "format"
> seems to crash badly, but one probably doesn't need that on a Q-bus
> machine :-).
What I ended up doing was using my 2.11BSD 11/73 to create a bootable
4.3-Reno tape for the uVax - all the pieces are there, just need a
system to 'dd' the files out with the right blocking factors, usw.
Then the fun really began. The SPL "probing" logic in the kernel
had a small problem when probing for MSCP controllers. As I recall
(and this is going back quite a few years) some 3rd party adaptors
ran at a different (lower) SPL than the probing logic expected - thus
the autoconfig routines raised the SPL higher than the interrupt
of the (Dilog I think) controller and the whole system hung. So,
to install the system you HAD to use DEC controllers - ok, I had a
RQDX3 and a couple RD53 drives present (the Dilog had a 319mb Miniscribe
disk). BUT 4.3-Reno had a bug in the MSCP driver and would not
recognize an honest to DEC RD53 drive! This was rapidly getting to be
unfun. I think the workaround (it's been a __long__ time so memory
is fuzzy) was to lie and call the drive an RA60 and then correct the
problem later. But to get the lie thru to the kernel I had to
use the standalone 'copy' program to copy a file (created on a PDP-11)
to the first couple sectors of the uVax's RD53. Sheesh!
> The compiled-in partition tables used during an install are a real
> pain compared to, say, a 2.11BSD installation, where disklabel is
> a standalone utility! (That's a real win, Steven!)
You're quite welcome. Actually 4.3-Reno served as inspiration and
reminder of pain to avoid when it came time to implement 2.11BSD's
disklabel capabilities. I swore I'd never go thru the pain of the
kernel having labels but the standalone utilities lacking them
4.3-Reno did have disklabels (the first 4.3BSD to do so) BUT the
standalone programs still had compiled in partitions.
> >First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
> >would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
> >between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
Can't be any version of Ultrix I ever used. At the time 4.3-Reno
came out Ultrix was still a warmed over 4.2BSD that DEC had corrupted
with System V(anilla) bolted on contamination. Affectionately known
as Buglix ;-) That was the same era that DEC had Ultrix-11 and that
was a mucked up 2.9BSD. Of course you have to realize DEC had "Mr.
Ken (Unix is Snake Oil) Olsen" around at the time 8-) UNIX is still
around - but DEC? No, I don't like Compaq confusers thank you ;)
4.3-Reno was a transitional experiment that happened just as the CSRG
and DEC had a serious falling out - and DEC support (Vaxen) vanished
at that point. Any further work (4.4BSD) totally and completely
ignored all DEC machines.
> Gees, looking at the install docs there are some very real improvements
> in Reno, especially in the filesystem and the speed of recompiled
Yep - you get NFS (which no 4BSD had prior to Reno). NFS doubles
the size of the kernel though (at least) so there's a memory penalty
to pay. It also brought many of the POSIX features (termios for
> code. I'm willing to live with a bit more disk space usage, especially
> for the promised speed benefits. It's not like KA630's or KA650's are speed
> demons, and big cheap disks are readily available these days.
Disk is cheap. Especially for older drives (but you run the risk
that an old drive will die soon ;-(). Best to invest in a modern
SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and use current drives (that's what I did for
my 11/73 - adaptor is $$$ but the drives are cheap).
Boy, you're not just whistling Dixie (apologies to those outside the
US for which the reference is obscure). "Not a speed demon" doesn't
begin to describe it. I went, believe it or not, thru the work of
getting a newer GCC-2 (at the time I think 2.3.x was "new") to build
and run on a uVax-II under 4.3-Reno. The biggest problem was that
4.3-Reno was neither "old" (V7ish) Unix or "POSIX" (just getting off
the standard's writers desks). Getting GCC to build was a stop/go
effort for several days but in the end the build would work: about
23 hours (or so)!! Sheesh - a 11/73 can *completely* regenerate
itself from sources (all programs, manpages, etc) in about 28 hours.
It was an interesting experiment but the uVax-II has sat here for 2+
years without being powered up. At one time the thought was to port
4.4BSD over but everyone that _could_ do the work lost interest - I've
my PDP-11s and PPro systems to keep me busy so I haven't the time or
inclination to do much with a KA630 system. For "slow" I have a PDP-11
(lots of fun, keeps you humble with the address space limits ;)). For
'fast' I have a couple dual cpu PPro systems (running BSD/OS) that
can give a quad processor SUN Enterprise Server-4500 a run for their
money. I have no need of a "slow" computer that attempts to run
current day (bloated) software.
I've toyed with the idea of swapping the innards of the 11/93 and
the uVax. The KDJ11E would be a lot happier in a BA-123 than a BA-23;)
But that's as far as it's gone (thinking about it). So - if anyone
out there wants a uVax-II (9mb of memory but lots of disks and a 9-track
tape drive to go with) drop by my place (shipping's out of the
question). If you're more hardware capable than I perhaps we could
swap the stuff into a BA23 (smaller enclosure to drive home, ...).
Yikes and gadzooks - I was a bit verbose tonight (but my typing skills
are much improved! ;-)).
sms at moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA14865
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:31:53 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
More information about the TUHS