<Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporar
<operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (an
<still are...)
yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in
that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used
multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80,
NS*dos<z80>, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to
look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time.
<Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-
If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is
more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the
time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a
microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989.
Allison
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On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
> I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot
> it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it
> be to bootstrap as follows:
>
> hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
> sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
> then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Well I've started to use this approach allready and have written most of
the code. My scenario is that I have an 11/34 with one RK05, and no other
operating systems. I have access to almost unlimited number of PDP-11
serial cards, and other unix boxes.
The PDP 11 is configured with two serial ports, one the standard serial
console, the other a 9600 baud serial line. These go to the two serial
ports on my PC running (which incendtally runs linux). First I send a
program (binary) as console emulator instructions to the PDP on the
console line. This program is basically a hacked version of
/mdec/tboot.s (TU10 boot) which provides getc() and putc() and other bits
and bobs. It reads in from console a number (rather than a file name)
which is the length of the program to load. This is read in from the
second serial port and loaded into memory. I then jump to this and start
going.
So the procedure is (1) Load tboot.s via console (2) load RKF to format
RK-05 (this works fine) (2) load the copy program whose name escapes me at
the moment, and transfer the tape image to the RK-05. (3) Boot the RK-05.
This seemed to work, and progress was only interupted by the need to move
the PDP-11 from Cambridge to home! I have copies of all the programs
which need a little finishing off, but I could let people have copies if
they are interested. Incidentally I assembled the on Supnik's emulator
and then punched them out to the virtual PTP.
In fact I also have a longish document which goes through the entire
process with all the code (and some new comments) to try and explain how
it all works.
All this was done using V5 unix code btw.
>
> Flaws: need different bootstraps for different disks
> need different bootstraps for different serial hardware
> how to deal with bad blocks?
> very slooow
>
> Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably
> build images for different drives.
> 7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if
> bad blocks were ever dealt with.
>
> Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be
> put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives
> would be required.
It is slow -- but that doesn't matter if you can go somewhere else while
it happens (as long as your RK-05 doesn't catch fire)
Alan
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>All,
> I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot
>it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it
>be to bootstrap as follows:
>
> hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
> sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
> then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Well, for what it's worth here's my contribution. I have been able to
set up working v5 and v6 systems on my 11/34c (which uses an RK05
drive) uisng the distributed images (thanks Warren).
The key here I think is to make use of the excellent work that has
been already done on the various PDP-11 emulators. The emulator I use
is that of Bob Supnic, which runs wonderfully on my Linux box.
v6 is available as an image of a tape. The docs helpfully say:
This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent
to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the
first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr
RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image.
It is trivial with the UNIX command dd to split the tape image into
its constituent parts:
1) Tape bootstap (useless for me)
2) RK05 root image
3) RK05 /usr image
4) RK05 /doc image
I can then start the Supnic emulator, attach the three RK05 images to
drives 0, 1 and 2 and boot. My system has only a single RK05 drive. As
a result I had to mess around in the emulator to create a fresh RK05
image containing a useful subset of the root and /usr images. In
practice it's not too hard to get v6 onto a single RK05 pack -- I
think it's only necessary to lose stuff like the spell disctionary and
so on.
I also wanted support for a second DL11 serial line, so I used the
emulator (and some extra emulated disk space) to rebuild the kernel.
Once I was happy with the disk image I'd created, it was time to
transfer it to real hardware. My 11/34c runs RT11 and I was able to
get hold of a small stripped down Kermit server-only program from John
Wilson. I forget the name of this utility, but it's available from
ftp.dbit.com. The stardard RT11 Kermit that I have is unable to
transfer entire disk images, the Wilson implementation can do so.
Booting the 11/34c from RX01 floppy (one RK05 drive only, remember) I
ran the Kermit server. From the PC end it was straightforward to
transfer the image: "PUT imagefile.img RK01:". Aside from a
spectacular RK05 head crash that put my machine out of action for a
while, all was well.
For v7, I started with a single RL02 image. That would boot on the
simulator. I added a couple of emulated RK05s to the emulator set up
and proceded to build a single RK05 which would (just!) hold a
bootable v7 image. I warn you that v7 on a 2.5Mb disk is tight, but it
can be done. Having built the image, I rebuilt the kernel to enable
RK05 support (and a second serial line, again) and disable the other
disk drivers. That kernel went onto my new image. Again, the same
Kermit trick enabled the image to be transferred to the 11/34a.
If anyone wants these RK05 bootable image files, please let me know
(rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk - not this address)!
A few points though:
1) RK05s packs _can not have_ bad blocks. There is no bad block
revectoring on these drives. A bad block on a pack suggests the pack
is ready for the dumpster. This makes life a little easier. I'm not
sure how you'd deal with bad block revectoring on an RL01/RL02 for
example. I guess it's not too hard, but I shan't speculate there.
2) My 11/73, on the other hand, uses an RD53 (last time I looked). I'm
not sure if the emulator can deal with these kind of drives. In any
case, support for MSCP drives only came with 2BSD, which I've not
played with. Maybe the same emulator tricks can be employed to get
RDxx images, modulo the bad blocks problem.
3) If you don't have a PDP-11 operating system running, the Kermit
approach won't be much use. There may be a stand-alone file transfer
program that can write to raw devices. No idea -- perhaps someone
needs to write this (both for the PDP and the PC ends).
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Bob
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Manners (My REAL address is: rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk)
BOB'S COMPUTER MUSEUM: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
<Allison, you got a copy? I emailed Dan Ts'o to get a copy, but haven't hear
<back from him yet.
I got it off the net in one of the archive sites. I have the sources (in C)
for it.
<The early Unixes didn't have a concept of bad blocks. This will always
<be a pain.
Not true. They all did as bad blocks have been a fact of life for all
computers since day one. Some of the ealy unixes used crude methods
from a perfomance standoint but, the bad block replacement was there.
Do read LIONS commentary. I was able to get a copy from the local library
here in eastern MA (USA) along with several books on BSD design. Unix was
really ahead of the pack on many things.
Allison
Hi,
RE: booting
< hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
< sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
< then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Depending on the hardware many of the qbus 11s have ODT, MOP(serial line),
MOP(sync line), TU58, rx01/2 and tu58 boots in rom. It's handy to untilize
this. I will not comment on unibus machines as I'm not experinced on those.
I favor the MOP boot with a mop responder on a PC to load a loader. The key
is to load small program by hand that loads a more complex loader.
<Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably
< build images for different drives.
There lies two problems, the drivers expect RK05. The other is the images
may already expect bad block to either not exist or have been remapped off
the source device (meaning the BB map copies too).
< 7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if
< bad blocks were ever dealt with.
There is s difference between an install and starting up a coped image that
is an already installed system.
<Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be
<put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives
<would be required.
There is already a program out there that emulates the serial interfaced
TU58 and while limited by the serial line speed the emulation seeks faster
than tape as it used ram or file space on disk.
<I've used this method on another hardware platform to move disk images
<in/out. It is slow, but it works.
Same here for non-pdp systems.
Allison
<From djenner(a)halcyon.com Thu Sep 11 16:01:12 1997
<It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't
<help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a
<CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to
<have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard
<distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that
<possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system
<running on many machines.
The sysboot certainly can be floppy and the system can be broken down to
multiple floppy volumes for installation. I may also be possible to use a
vax to read the CDrom and cut a tape(9track or tk50) from that as well.
This of course is predicated on the cdrom.
The V6 and V7 binaries however already exist and are available, getting
one of them onto a 11/73 and written out as non-image files would help
greatly.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 12 09:13:31 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709112313.JAA08771(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?
To: pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <swordfish.873966148(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk> from "pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk" at "Sep 11, 97 09:21:25 am"
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In article by pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk:
> Warren wrote:
> > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions
> > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition',
>
> If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is
> running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was
> build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space,
> such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There
> are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these
> are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a
> makefile to configure and build for a small machine.
>
> It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff
> is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is
> modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'.
>
> I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and
> also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised.
>
> Pete
Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
off those RL02s?
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709112331.JAA09209(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Bootstrap Idea
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:31:22 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot
it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it
be to bootstrap as follows:
hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Flaws: need different bootstraps for different disks
need different bootstraps for different serial hardware
how to deal with bad blocks?
very slooow
Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably
build images for different drives.
7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if
bad blocks were ever dealt with.
Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be
put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives
would be required.
I've used this method on another hardware platform to move disk images
in/out. It is slow, but it works.
Warren
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Warren,
<assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already
This is the tough part as PDP-11s run a wide variety of OSs. If you have
RT-11 (most common) you likely ok. But even then it can influence you
choice of devices. IE: RTv4 knows nothing of TK50 and RQDXn controllers
and v5.1 does. This is true for RSTS and RSX too.
The other is how to get it onto the required media. CDrom is largely PC
hardware. If the disk is readable using dos/linux it's fairly easy, though
the right supplied utility can help if not. PCs with the right hardware and
software can create RX50 and RX33 media, TU58 has been done, RX01 with more
effort. SCSI disk are not common on PDP-11s so that is a low yeild path
though they also can be done. The PDP-11 world peripheral wise divides
across what bus you have Q or U and that influences what peripherals you
likely to have.
The how of taking one of those binaries and moving to the PDP-11 has eluded
me for a while. I have been told it is not possible as they are image files
and if you copy an image of an RL02 to an RL02 you better have then same or
fewer bad blocks as the image may land on one making it useless.
I have been going through some of these gyrations with netBSD for the VAX
and they have set of problem that would be common to PDP-11. Check out
their FAQs on this for hints and solutions.
Allison
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Sep 12 02:01:12 1997
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To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>
CC: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
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Warren,
I think you are exactly correct when you say these are the first two
eminent, and imminent questions about PDP-11 Unix. They have frequently
occurred to me as I drool in anticipation over the possibility of
running 2.11BSD on an 11/73!
Maybe you or a 2.11BSD expert (Steve Schultz?) could find the "release
notes" for 2.11BSD and post them, if that's legal now. That would
answer a lot of questions about how to configure a machine or whether a
particular machine could handle it. Maybe the release notes from two or
three different versions could cover a great majority of potential
users; your survey might answer that.
It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't
help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a
CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to
have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard
distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that
possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system
running on many machines.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Allison J Parent:
> >
> > <See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
> >
> > I've done the petition.
> >
> > <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
> > <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
> > <on the same web page.
> >
> > I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
> >
> > What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
> > 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
>
> Sorry for the misunderstanding Allison!
>
> Actually, that's a very good question. As I'm not a hardware person, I'll
> pass this over to the other PUPS mailing list members. If/when SCO start
> selling licenses & we make CD-ROMs or FTP sites available, this question
> is going to come up an awful lot:
>
> Question 1
> ----------
>
> How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
>
> - a tape, because I have a tape drive
>
> - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
>
> assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
>
> Question 2
> ----------
>
> I have [ this particular CPU and this list of other peripherals ].
> What version(s) of Unix can I run on this PDP-11?
>
> Can anybody help out with answers to Question 1? Bits & pieces of Question 2
> are answered on the PUPS web pages, but they need expanding.
>
> Thanks in advance for any information, and any programs (boot code etc)
> that I can add in to the PUPS archive!!
>
> Warren
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Mahlzeit
According to Warren Toomey:
> Question 1
> ----------
>
> How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
>
> - a tape, because I have a tape drive
>
> - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
>
> assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskimage.
I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
but it worked.
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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All,
While I'm thinking of it, does anybody have any old Usenix, EUUG,
AUUG etc. newsletters, papers, conference proceedings? Some of these have
details about fitting various UNIX flavours onto various PDP-11s, plus other
useful information. Anyone care to scan stuff in?
I've got some AUUG newsletters dating from 1980 onwards. One of them mentions
a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition', which looks like it comes from
Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, UK. Does anybody have any knowledge of
this version of 7th Edition?
Warren
<See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
I've done the petition.
<Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
<You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
<on the same web page.
I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Sep 11 14:49:53 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709110449.OAA17004(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:49:53 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199709110441.AA09464(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Sep 11, 97 00:41:08 am"
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In article by Allison J Parent:
>
> <See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
>
> I've done the petition.
>
> <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
> <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
> <on the same web page.
>
> I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
>
> What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
> 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
Sorry for the misunderstanding Allison!
Actually, that's a very good question. As I'm not a hardware person, I'll
pass this over to the other PUPS mailing list members. If/when SCO start
selling licenses & we make CD-ROMs or FTP sites available, this question
is going to come up an awful lot:
Question 1
----------
How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
- a tape, because I have a tape drive
- a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
Question 2
----------
I have [ this particular CPU and this list of other peripherals ].
What version(s) of Unix can I run on this PDP-11?
Can anybody help out with answers to Question 1? Bits & pieces of Question 2
are answered on the PUPS web pages, but they need expanding.
Thanks in advance for any information, and any programs (boot code etc)
that I can add in to the PUPS archive!!
Warren
