6 Aug
2014
6 Aug
'14
2:56 a.m.
Interesting that they had both - I don't remember
hearing about the 37
but that doesn't mean much. :-)
The only model 33 on any PDP11 in Bell Labs research was the console.
Otherwise all terminals were ASCII devices. Model 37's predated Unix.
doug
6 Aug
6 Aug
6:45 a.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
Doug McIlroy <doug(a)cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
So the model-33 wasn't ASCII?
Thanks for the info.
Arnold
Interesting
that they had both - I don't remember hearing about the 37
but that doesn't mean much. :-)
The only model 33 on any PDP11 in Bell Labs research was the console.
Otherwise all terminals were ASCII devices. Model 37's predated Unix.
doug 
9:09 a.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
So the model-33 wasn't ASCII?
Nope; it was 5-bit Baudot (technically ITA2). Upper case only, and there
were codes to shift between letters and figures. Grep thee the net for
"ASR33". 
8:43 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
On Aug 6, 2014, at 3:47 AM, Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014, arnold(a)skeeve.com wrote:
Nonsense. The Model 33 as ASCII but Upper Case only. It definitely was not Baudot.
The Baudot version of the same thing was a model 28.
So the model-33 wasn't ASCII?
Nope; it was 5-bit Baudot (technically ITA2). Upper case only, and there
were codes to shift between letters and figures. Grep thee the net for
"ASR33". 
9:40 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
On the model 33 (ASCII) teletype, control G, the BEL character, rang a
metal bell inside the box, and it went "ding".
I had a friend who came across an older, Baudot teletype (I think he
said it was a model 27.) It also had a BEL character. He said
instead of going "ding", it went "splat", and a printed character
appeared on the paper in the shape of a bell!
Quoting Ronald Natalie <ron(a)ronnatalie.com>om>:
On Aug 6, 2014, at 3:47 AM, Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014, arnold(a)skeeve.com wrote:
Nonsense. The Model 33 as ASCII but Upper Case only. It
definitely was not Baudot.
The Baudot version of the same thing was a model 28.
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So the model-33 wasn't ASCII?
Nope; it was 5-bit Baudot (technically ITA2). Upper case only, and there
were codes to shift between letters and figures. Grep thee the net for
"ASR33". 
7 Aug
7 Aug
6:44 a.m.
New subject: Baudot/ASCII (was Re: terminal - just for fun)
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014, Dave Horsfall wrote:
Eek! For some reason I was thinking of Amateur RTTY (I happen to be an
Amateur "ham" radio operator). Computers are mostly used now, with both
Baudot and ASCII, both FSK and AFSK, but you do see the occasional
die-hard using a boat-anchor.
-- Dave (vk2kfu)
So the
model-33 wasn't ASCII?
Nope; it was 5-bit Baudot (technically ITA2). Upper case only, and
there were codes to shift between letters and figures. Grep thee the
net for "ASR33". 
6 Aug
6 Aug
1:22 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
arnold(a)skeeve.com scripsit:
So the model-33 wasn't ASCII?
The keyboard could send all of ASCII except lower-case letters, grave,
braces, and vertical bar (i.e. excluding x60 to x7E). The high-order
bit was always set. Using the paper tape reader and punch, you could
transmit arbitrary 8-bit characters.
It was the model 32 that was Baudot.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan(a)ccil.org
Dream projects long deferred usually bite the wax tadpole.
--James Lileks
1:44 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014, John Cowan wrote:
arnold(a)skeeve.com scripsit:
Sounds like an Apple ][+ keyboard.
-uso.
So the model-33 wasn't ASCII?
The keyboard could send all of ASCII except lower-case letters, grave,
braces, and vertical bar (i.e. excluding x60 to x7E). The high-order
bit was always set. Using the paper tape reader and punch, you could
transmit arbitrary 8-bit characters. 
3:26 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014, John Cowan wrote:
I guess it was common to use the Teletype Model 33 independently without
any video display. (I read that it could accommodate a modem too.) Did
it automatically print to paper everything typed to keyboard in
real-time? Or maybe only when LINE FEED or RE-TURN key was pressed?
How would RUB OUT be used when using the sh shell? (I tried looking
through the code and manual for some old 32V and previous versions but
didn't see code for it yet.)
When did the sh shell provide intra-line editing?
Were the early Unix versions case insensitive? (Like could I run "DaTe"
from shell?) If not, how to get the model-33 to work with it?
What about the model-33 printer? Did it print lowercase?
How was the "HERE IS" key programmed? Was it used in Unix?
What was the "REPT" key used for?
I also noticed there wasn't any tilde key. So I looked at some old Unix
code and didn't see tilde used for home directory until 1980 csh. But
how was tilde entered for previous uses? (Maybe I just overlooked on
keyboard.)
Was there any concept of intra-line editing when using a model-33 -- but
without seeing what is being typed or having it print over (and over)
same line content? (I should assume that intra-line editing can only
happen on video terminals.)
(My book in progress explains a lot about the history of ex/vi but
the earliest version I have is 1.1 which included the support for
intra-line editing and even visual mode for HP 2645 and LSI ADM-3A
cursor-addressible terminals. I am hoping my book can also introduce the
basic usage concepts for readers who have no familiarity with the
hardware around then. One of the TUHS list participants and termcap/vi
developer already told me some about the hjkl arrow keys, for example.)
So the
model-33 wasn't ASCII?
The keyboard could send all of ASCII except lower-case letters, grave,
braces, and vertical bar (i.e. excluding x60 to x7E). The high-order
bit was always set. Using the paper tape reader and punch, you could
transmit arbitrary 8-bit characters. 
4:15 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
My answers, embedded though I'm sure millions will reply. From my recollection....
aps
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Jeremy C. Reed"
<reed(a)reedmedia.net>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] terminal - just for fun
Date: August 6, 2014 at 8:26:22 AM PDT
To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014, John Cowan wrote:
I guess it was common to use the Teletype Model 33 independently without
any video display. (I read that it could accommodate a modem too.) Did
it automatically print to paper everything typed to keyboard in
real-time? Or maybe only when LINE FEED or RE-TURN key was pressed?
The 33 was capable of full-duplex so this depended upon what it was talking to (or how it
was optioned). Teletype did have an OEM acoustically coupled modem on 33's (and
32's??). In the "barebones" version, they were current-loop machines
(make-brake contacts to represent the 1's and 0's for the code). There was also
an OEM option for RS232.
So the
model-33 wasn't ASCII?
The keyboard could send all of ASCII except lower-case letters, grave,
braces, and vertical bar (i.e. excluding x60 to x7E). The high-order
bit was always set. Using the paper tape reader and punch, you could
transmit arbitrary 8-bit characters. How would RUB OUT be used when using the sh shell? (I
tried looking
through the code and manual for some old 32V and previous versions but
didn't see code for it yet.)
When you pressed RUBOUT, the 'deleted' character was printed on the paper by the
system to which the 33 was connected and removed from the butter (pointer moved backwards,
etc.).
When did the sh shell provide intra-line editing?
I first experienced this with the CSH but maybe there were others before.
Were the early Unix versions case insensitive? (Like
could I run "DaTe"
from shell?) If not, how to get the model-33 to work with it?
I recall that there was an STTY command that would allow case to be ignored. Remember,
the shell would look for a file name in a set of directories (later, $PATH) for the file
name to fork/exec.
What about the model-33 printer? Did it print
lowercase?
I do not believe so.
How was the "HERE IS" key programmed? Was it
used in Unix?
32's and 33's were focused on Telex and TWX services. Hence the "HERE
IS" (popular with Telex or TWX call initiations) and REPT (I can't recall its
meaning but, geez, looks like a request to repeat last transmission or indicating that
what follows is a repeat transmission).
What was the "REPT" key used for?
See above.
I also noticed there wasn't any tilde key. So I
looked at some old Unix
code and didn't see tilde used for home directory until 1980 csh. But
how was tilde entered for previous uses? (Maybe I just overlooked on
keyboard.)
I thought the tilde (~) was used in the C language. I remember seeing tildes as home
directories in V7 or certainly in CSH. Again, my recollections...
Was there any concept of intra-line editing when using
a model-33 -- but
without seeing what is being typed or having it print over (and over)
same line content? (I should assume that intra-line editing can only
happen on video terminals.)
As implied before, I don't recall any intraline editing (beyond backspacing or
erasing-the-last-character commands for those "glass tty's" that could
support it) until CSH.
(My book in progress explains a lot about the history
of ex/vi but
the earliest version I have is 1.1 which included the support for
intra-line editing and even visual mode for HP 2645 and LSI ADM-3A
cursor-addressible terminals. I am hoping my book can also introduce the
basic usage concepts for readers who have no familiarity with the
hardware around then. One of the TUHS list participants and termcap/vi
developer already told me some about the hjkl arrow keys, for example.)
_______________________________________________
TUHS mailing list
TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org
https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
8:16 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
When did the sh shell provide intra-line editing?
I first experienced this with the CSH but maybe there were others before.
8:32 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
Cooked mode (or ICANON for later drivers) did the ERASE, KILL, (and later) WERASE.
The later TCSH, KSH, BRL 5R2 version of the (with editing turned on) Bourne Shell, etc...
ran the shell in raw (-icanon) mode to do fancier editing including moving the cursor back
over already entered text and to insert/delete at the cursor.
4:37 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
Jeremy C. Reed scripsit:
I guess it was common to use the Teletype Model 33
independently without
any video display.
Yes, it was. The first video terminal I ever saw was the DEC VT05.
Did it automatically print to paper everything typed
to keyboard in
real-time? Or maybe only when LINE FEED or RE-TURN key was pressed?
No. It was a full-duplex device, so echoing was normally provided by
the remote system, just like today.
How would RUB OUT be used when using the sh shell? (I
tried looking
through the code and manual for some old 32V and previous versions but
didn't see code for it yet.)
RUB OUT transmitted the character DEL (0x7F), which was the default
"intr" character (typically ^C today).
When did the sh shell provide intra-line editing?
With @ and #, from the beginning.
Were the early Unix versions case insensitive? (Like
could I run "DaTe"
from shell?) If not, how to get the model-33 to work with it?
The stty settings iuclc and olcuc lowercased input and uppercased output,
and they still work today. If you tried to log in in all upper case,
login would downcase your username and turn on these settings, a feature
not present today.
What about the model-33 printer? Did it print
lowercase?
No. IIRC, it printed lower case as upper case, but I may be wrong.
How was the "HERE IS" key programmed? Was it
used in Unix?
I think it was done in the hardware of the teletype. By default it
sent a string of NUL characters.
What was the "REPT" key used for?
It was a shift key which, when held down, caused other keys to be
repeated. The Model 33 did not provide auto-repeating keys.
I also noticed there wasn't any tilde key. So I
looked at some old Unix
code and didn't see tilde used for home directory until 1980 csh. But
how was tilde entered for previous uses? (Maybe I just overlooked on
keyboard.)
None of `, ~, {, |, or } were present on the keyboard. If there was
a way to type them to Unix, I don't know what it was.
Was there any concept of intra-line editing when using
a model-33 -- but
without seeing what is being typed or having it print over (and over)
same line content? (I should assume that intra-line editing can only
happen on video terminals.)
On DEC OSes, the RUBOUT key echoed as \, and you had to count them to
see what you had, or push ^R to get the line re-echoed cleanly. The
modern uses of ^R, ^U, ^O, and ^Z on Windows all come from DEC.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan(a)ccil.org
All "isms" should be "wasms". --Abbie
5:53 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
While on this thread, I have to share my favorite Model 37 TYY story.
The Model 37 was a mechanical marvel--under the hood it was filled with
levers and cams and all manner of strange mechanisms. Dennis Ritchie had
one at home long after most of the rest of us had moved on to glass
teletypes. It mostly worked, although as it aged the mechanical systems
got a bit rickety and had a tendency to insert an extra blank character
into the line you were typing, especially if you were typing fast.
The last straw for Dennis happened late one evening when he was doing the
usual housekeeping after compiling a large program:
rm *.o
(after all, disc space was very limited in those days) and he got back the
message:
.o not found
7:44 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
On Aug 6, 2014 12:54 PM, <scj(a)yaccman.com> wrote:
While on this thread, I have to share my favorite Model 37 TYY story.
The Model 37 was a mechanical marvel--under the hood it was filled with
levers and cams and all manner of strange mechanisms. Dennis Ritchie had
one at home long after most of the rest of us had moved on to glass
teletypes. It mostly worked, although as it aged the mechanical systems
got a bit rickety and had a tendency to insert an extra blank character
into the line you were typing, especially if you were typing fast.
The last straw for Dennis happened late one evening when he was doing the
usual housekeeping after compiling a large program:
rm *.o
(after all, disc space was very limited in those days) and he got back the
message:
.o not found
ouch.
Another Model 37 classic:
"values of beta will give rise to dom!"
[ http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/odd.html]
8:36 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
Actually, I had a Model 37 (ASR) in my house for a while (originally property of Rocky
Flats Weapons Center). It had a big NEWLINE key on it and it's one of the few
terminals where you didn't have to turn on cr/nl mapping. It also dealt with all
those ESC-8 and ESC-9 characters and the like that nroff put out by default. It also put
had a big green PROCEED light that came on with DSR or CD on the serial interface. Mine
didn't have the greek type box that you switched in and out with SHIFT IN / SHIFT OUT
characters and yes, an unprogrammed HERE IS drum.
One neat feature about the RUBOUT (or DELETE) character is that it was "all
ones" in binary. The way you'd correct errors in off-line generated paper
tape was to backspace the punch and then hit rubout. The input device would subsequently
ignore any such characters.
8:38 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
At the University of Maryland all the teletypes were given unique "site
id's" encoded on the here-is drum. The UNIVAC port multiplexors would send ENQ
to them to get the site id to record in the login sequence on EXEC 8,
4:49 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
I used v6 on an 11/45 -- my comments refer to my recollections from the mid-late 1970s.
On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:26 AM, Jeremy C. Reed <reed(a)reedmedia.net> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014, John Cowan wrote:
I guess it was common to use the Teletype Model 33 independently without
any video display. (I read that it could accommodate a modem too.) Did
it automatically print to paper everything typed to keyboard in
real-time? Or maybe only when LINE FEED or RE-TURN key was pressed?
What video? I don't recall ever seeing a TTY have video displays.
Terminals could operate in either Full Duplex or Half Duplex. The former required every
character to be echoed in order to be printed. In HDX mode every character typed was both
sent down the wire and printed.
Yes, some TTYs had an attached acoustic coupler and/or a paper tape reader-punch.
So the
model-33 wasn't ASCII?
The keyboard could send all of ASCII except lower-case letters, grave,
braces, and vertical bar (i.e. excluding x60 to x7E). The high-order
bit was always set. Using the paper tape reader and punch, you could
transmit arbitrary 8-bit characters.
How would RUB OUT be used when using the sh shell? (I tried looking
through the code and manual for some old 32V and previous versions but
didn't see code for it yet.)
It wasn't really used. Most often rubout was used on systems where a "text"
would be prepared offline and punched on paper tape as it was being typed. Hitting rubout
would punch holes in all positions on the tape effectively obliterating whatever had been
typed. Once the offline text was complete the tape could be transmitted to a host for
further processing. This was the Automatic Send part of the ASR-33. I recall doing this in
the early 70s at a community college I went to -- but this wasn't connected to a UNIX
system.
When did the sh shell provide intra-line editing?
From the beginning if you count @
and #
Were the early Unix versions case insensitive? (Like could I run "DaTe"
from shell?) If not, how to get the model-33 to work with it?
How early are asking about. V6 was case sensitive. The ASR-33 was folded to lower case on
input by default.
What about the model-33 printer? Did it print lowercase?
Upper case only as previous posters have mentioned.
How was the "HERE IS" key programmed? Was it used in Unix?
No idea; I never saw it used.
What was the "REPT" key used for?
ditto.
I also noticed there wasn't any tilde key. So I looked at some old Unix
code and didn't see tilde used for home directory until 1980 csh. But
how was tilde entered for previous uses? (Maybe I just overlooked on
keyboard.)
probably as \- I'd have to look at the terminal driver code.
Was there any concept of intra-line editing when using a model-33 -- but
without seeing what is being typed or having it print over (and over)
same line content? (I should assume that intra-line editing can only
happen on video terminals.)
Not really. You had @ and # and that was about it. You could always manually advance the
paper in the TTY if things got to smudged up from overprinting.
(My book in progress explains a lot about the history of ex/vi but
the earliest version I have is 1.1 which included the support for
intra-line editing and even visual mode for HP 2645 and LSI ADM-3A
cursor-addressible terminals. I am hoping my book can also introduce the
basic usage concepts for readers who have no familiarity with the
hardware around then. One of the TUHS list participants and termcap/vi
developer already told me some about the hjkl arrow keys, for example.)
--
Milo Velimirović
Network Specialist - ITS Network Services
608.785.6618 Office - 608.386.2817 Cell
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W
6:26 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
Quoting "Jeremy C. Reed" <reed(a)reedmedia.net>et>:
When did the sh shell provide intra-line editing?
I don't think sh ever did line editing, unless sh is a link to bash or ksh.
I first saw this in csh around 1978, ed-style. David Korn added EMACS
editing to ksh in the early 80s, and Alan Hewitt wrote a mini-vi version
which Korn also included. Once I had access to vi in the shell, I switched
from csh to ksh and never went back.
How was the "HERE IS" key programmed? Was it
used in Unix?
HERE IS was intended for two teletypes connected to each other via modem.
There was a short ID string hardcoded somehow into the teletype - I think
the limit was 8 or 16 characters, and if not null, typically was a short
ID of whose teletype it was (e.g. the organization name or site in the org.)
If you press HERE IS, it was as if you had typed those characters.
More interesting was that if one side of the link sent the ASCII ENQ
(enquiry, control E) character, the other side would respond with its
HERE IS string.
You were supposed to type a message offline onto paper tape (editing
with the "back space" button on the tape punch, which rewound the tape
reel one character so the most recent char was ready to be punched again)
and then type RUB OUT, which obliterated the typo.) Then you would put
the tape in the reader, dial the number of another teletype, and press
Start on the tape reader. Your tape would read and be transmitted to the
other side. Sort of a primitive email system, it was widely used by news
media. There was even a "Telex" network of these things - the Wikipedia
entry for Telex has some background and a few vintage photos.
I think if you put an ENQ at the beginning of your tape, the other side
would identify itself, so you were sure it went to the right place.
Of course, the tape kept reading, so you'd better have several NULL
characters after the ENQ.
I never tried this, my ASR33 days were spent dialing up computers, not
other teletypes. I actually bought one of these things as a college
sophomore so I could access the computer center from my dorm room!
UNIX didn't
use HERE IS.
Mary Ann
6:48 p.m.
New subject: terminal - just for fun
I just discovered that Wikipedia has a nice article "teleprinter" that
goes into detail about these devices.
About "HERE IS" they state this:
Some teleprinters had a "Here is" key, which transmitted a fixed
sequence 20 or 22 characters, programmable by breaking tabs off a
drum. This sequence could also be transmitted automatically upon
receipt of an ENQ (control E) signal, if enabled.[19][20] This was
commonly used to identify a station; the operator could press the key
to send the station identifier to the other end, or the remote station
could trigger its transmission by sending the ENQ character,
essentially asking "who are you?".
Quoting Mary Ann Horton <mah(a)mhorton.net>et>:
Quoting "Jeremy C. Reed"
<reed(a)reedmedia.net>et>:
When did the sh shell provide intra-line editing?
I don't think sh ever did line editing, unless sh is a link to bash or ksh.
I first saw this in csh around 1978, ed-style. David Korn added EMACS
editing to ksh in the early 80s, and Alan Hewitt wrote a mini-vi version
which Korn also included. Once I had access to vi in the shell, I switched
from csh to ksh and never went back.
How was the "HERE IS" key programmed?
Was it used in Unix?
HERE IS was intended for two teletypes connected to each other via modem.
There was a short ID string hardcoded somehow into the teletype - I think
the limit was 8 or 16 characters, and if not null, typically was a short
ID of whose teletype it was (e.g. the organization name or site in the org.)
If you press HERE IS, it was as if you had typed those characters.
More interesting was that if one side of the link sent the ASCII ENQ
(enquiry, control E) character, the other side would respond with its
HERE IS string.
You were supposed to type a message offline onto paper tape (editing
with the "back space" button on the tape punch, which rewound the tape
reel one character so the most recent char was ready to be punched again)
and then type RUB OUT, which obliterated the typo.) Then you would put
the tape in the reader, dial the number of another teletype, and press
Start on the tape reader. Your tape would read and be transmitted to the
other side. Sort of a primitive email system, it was widely used by news
media. There was even a "Telex" network of these things - the Wikipedia
entry for Telex has some background and a few vintage photos.
I think if you put an ENQ at the beginning of your tape, the other side
would identify itself, so you were sure it went to the right place.
Of course, the tape kept reading, so you'd better have several NULL
characters after the ENQ.
I never tried this, my ASR33 days were spent dialing up computers, not
other teletypes. I actually bought one of these things as a
college sophomore so I could access the computer center from my dorm
room! UNIX didn't
use HERE IS.
Mary Ann
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TUHS mailing list
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3558
days inactive
3559
days old
20 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
A. P. Garcia -
Armando Stettner -
arnold＠skeeve.com -
Dave Horsfall -
Doug McIlroy -
Jaap Akkerhuis -
Jeremy C. Reed -
John Cowan -
Mary Ann Horton -
Milo Velimirović -
Ronald Natalie -
scj＠yaccman.com -
Steve Nickolas