9 Dec
2015
9 Dec
'15
10:16 p.m.
estabur (who thought these names up, I know 8
characters is limiting,
but c'mon)
'establish user mode registers'
the 411 header is read by a loader
Actually, it's read by the exec() system call (in sys1.c).
Noel
9 Dec
9 Dec
10:31 p.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc(a)mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:
Actually, it's read by the exec() system call (in sys1.c).
To be fair UNIX was the naming sinner here IMO. Unix's ld command is the
"link editor", and exec(2) is the "program loader" in the pure
OS/academic
naming sense. I never asked Dennis or Ken why those names were not used.
I suspect like creat(2) it made sense at the time and then by the time the
functions leveled out, it was embedded too deep the change it.
BTW: the DEC (vms) link editor runs on Ultrix (PDP-11 and Vaxen). The
binaries are part of the Fortran kit. I'm not sure if it will run on V7
but it might work on BSD 2.x. It's author sits a few feet from me these
days. When DEC finally went to support DEC standard Fortran on UNIX it
was just easier to make the VMS link know how to output an a.out (and macho
files) and the end, then it was to try to add the features they needed for
Fortran to ld and a.out.
It's interesting hearing from Paul his issues over the years between, Unix,
NT, Apple etc., a.out, COFF, and other formats.
Clem
10:47 p.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
Clem Cole scripsit:
To be fair UNIX was the naming sinner here IMO.
Unix's ld command is the
"link editor",
I thought "ld" stood for Link eDitor. :-)
I never asked Dennis or Ken why those names were not
used.
FWIW, DEC transitioned from "loader" to "link editor". On OS/8 there
were four linkers, one for each compiler: ABSLDR, LOAD, LOADER,
and LINK. LINK was for the macro assembler, the last one published.
I don't remember the story on the various PDP-11 DEC OSes; by VMS days
it was exclusively LINK. The ABSLDR actually did loading rather than
linking (it was "absolute" in the sense that it did no relocation, so
if parts of your program overwrote other parts, that was your problem).
When it terminated, the executable program was in core (the ABSLDR's
last act was to arrange for the executable to overwrite it) where you
could save it or start it up as you were so minded.
--
"Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org>
11:39 p.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, John Cowan wrote:
...so yeah. CP/M got a lot of its terminology from DEC.
Clem Cole scripsit:
I thought it stood for "load", as that nomenclature is used on other OSes
(I think CP/M maybe?)
To be fair UNIX was the naming sinner here IMO.
Unix's ld command is the
"link editor",
I thought "ld" stood for Link eDitor. :-) I never asked
Dennis or Ken why those names were not used.
FWIW, DEC transitioned from "loader" to "link editor". On OS/8
there
were four linkers, one for each compiler: ABSLDR, LOAD, LOADER,
and LINK. LINK was for the macro assembler, the last one published. I don't remember the story on the various PDP-11
DEC OSes; by VMS days
it was exclusively LINK. The ABSLDR actually did loading rather than
linking (it was "absolute" in the sense that it did no relocation, so
if parts of your program overwrote other parts, that was your problem).
When it terminated, the executable program was in core (the ABSLDR's
last act was to arrange for the executable to overwrite it) where you
could save it or start it up as you were so minded.
-uso.
12:23 a.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 5:47 PM, John Cowan <cowan(a)mercury.ccil.org> wrote:
I thought "ld" stood for Link eDitor. :-)
I have never heard that justification. It's always been talked about as
the "loader" communications I had with different folks including Dennis.
In the early/mid '70s the person that introduced me to Unix (tjk) always
called it the loader. Ted was (like many of us in those days) coming
from either IBM's TSS or MTS, and influenced by IBM's terminology as well
as DECs.
On OS/8 there
were four linkers, one for each compiler: ABSLDR, LOAD, LOADER,
and LINK. LINK was for the macro assembler, the last one published.
I used TSS/8 and I've forgotten what is was called there, never used
OS/8. In TOPS and Tenex land it was called a linker, as it was on TSS and
MTS.
I don't remember the story on the various PDP-11
DEC OSes;
RT-11, DOS-11 and RSX all called it a linker.
by VMS days
it was exclusively LINK.
As the author of VMS's link and later versions, I'll try to ask Paul
tomorrow what he knows/remembers. In my presence, he has b*tched about
Unix calling it a 'loader.
'
Clem
1:08 a.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 at 19:23:07 -0500, Clem Cole wrote:
On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 5:47 PM, John Cowan
<cowan(a)mercury.ccil.org> wrote:
My understanding, which predates my contact with Unix, is that the
original toochains for single-job machines consisted of the assembler
or compiler, the output of which was loaded directly into core with
the loader. As things became more complicated (and slow), it made
sense to store the memory image somewhere on drum, and then load that
image directly when you wanted to run it. And that in some systems
the name "loader" stuck, even though it no longer loaded. Something
like the modern ISP use of the term "modem" to mean "router". But I
don't have anything to back up this version; comments welcome.
Greg
--
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I thought "ld" stood for Link eDitor.
:-)
???I have never heard that justification. It's always been talked about as
the "loader" communications I had with different folks including Dennis.
In the early/mid '70s the person that introduced me to Unix (tjk) always
called it the loader.??? Ted was (like many of us in those days) coming
from either IBM's TSS or MTS, and influenced by IBM's terminology as well
as DECs. 
9:42 a.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
This is easily the greatest thread on this list in years. LOVE!
1:19 a.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
Clem Cole scripsit:
That's because I made it up this very day, hence the smiley.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan(a)ccil.org
Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
--Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God"
I thought
"ld" stood for Link eDitor. :-)
I have never heard that justification. 
10:06 a.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
John Cowan <cowan(a)mercury.ccil.org> wrote:
Clem Cole scripsit:
You are completely wrong! It is the load mnemonic for Z8/Z80/Z8000 Assembler
to load the operand into the destination
ld r1,r2
;)
Oliver
To be fair UNIX was the naming sinner here IMO.
Unix's ld command is the
"link editor",
I thought "ld" stood for Link eDitor. :-) 
7:50 p.m.
New subject: v6tar from v7 on v6, too large?
On 12/10/15 4:06 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:
John Cowan <cowan(a)mercury.ccil.org> wrote:
As a newb who doesn't know any better than what it seems they do, in
keeping with the original minimalism:
"as" should have been "me" for mnemonic encoder
"ld" should have been "la" for link and assemble
and some obscure function in /usr/sys/ken/sys1.c or maybe even
/usr/sys/dmr/sys1.c, because one guy's folder is as good as the next,
should have been called pldr(), for program loader, which would have
been the program 'loader'.
-Will
Clem Cole scripsit:
You are completely wrong! It is the load mnemonic for Z8/Z80/Z8000
Assembler
to load the operand into the destination
ld r1,r2
;)
Oliver To be fair UNIX was the naming sinner here IMO.
Unix's ld command
is the
"link editor",
I thought "ld" stood for Link eDitor. :-)
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10 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
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Clem Cole -
Greg 'groggy' Lehey -
Jacob Ritorto -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
John Cowan -
Oliver Lehmann -
Steve Nickolas -
Will Senn