11 Jan
2022
11 Jan
'22
6:36 p.m.
I've been meaning to ask about this for a while....
"... The reason why is because there was tremendous antagonism between New
York and L.A. L.A. was, you know, full of color, full of acid, full of
hippies, and we were not like that.
We dressed in black and white. We did not like free love. ..... We took
amphetamine; they took LSD. They were, you know, sort of loving and happy,
and we were - we weren't really evil, we were more intellectual, more about
art."
[Mary Woronov, in an interview with NPR's Terry Gross on "Fresh Air",
talking about New York City, Warhol's Factory and shows in Los Angeles
while touring with the Velvet Underground:
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=241437872]
Note: I am not suggesting that anyone involved with Unix ever took
amphetamines, nor, despite the usual crack about LSD and BSD, that anyone
on the west coast was taking acid, though Markov's "What the Dormouse
Said"
would indicate that many of you WERE tripping.
It seems like Unix is largely a child of the coasts. Notable work in Utah,
Colorado and Chicago aside, it seems the bulk of early Unix work happened
in either the greater New York metro area in northern New Jersey or the
greater Bay area around San Francisco. Notable work was also done in
Massachusetts, but again, that's a coastal state and I think it's fair to
say that most of that was inside the route 128 corridor. Of course work was
done internationally, but I'm particularly curious about differences in US
culture here, and how they influenced things.
The question is, to what extent did differences in coastal cultures
influence things like design aesthetics? I think it's is accurate to
characterize early BTL Unix by it's minimalism, and others have echoed this
(cf. Richard Gabriel in the "Worse is Better" papers). But similarly, BSD
has always felt like a larger system -- didn't Lions go as far as to quip
about the succinctness of 6th Edition being "fixed" by 4BSD?
Anyway, I believe it is fair to say that early Unix has a rather distinct
feel from later BSD-derived systems and the two did evolve in different
geographic locations. Furthermore, the world was not as connected then as
it is now.
So to what extent, if any, was this a function of the larger cultural
forces at play near where that work was taking place?
- Dan C.
11 Jan
11 Jan
6:45 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 01:36:27PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
It seems like Unix is largely a child of the coasts.
Notable work in Utah,
Colorado and Chicago aside, it seems the bulk of early Unix work happened
in either the greater New York metro area in northern New Jersey or the
greater Bay area around San Francisco.
There is a reason that a ton of the kernel group at Sun were from Wisconsin,
well, UW-Madison grads. UW did some porting work, added NFS to BSD, they
were quite active in the 1980s.
6:50 p.m.
On Tuesday, January 11th, 2022 at 10:36 AM, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The question is, to what extent did differences in
coastal cultures influence things like design aesthetics? I think it's is accurate to
characterize early BTL Unix by it's minimalism, and others have echoed this (cf.
Richard Gabriel in the "Worse is Better" papers). But similarly, BSD has always
felt like a larger system -- didn't Lions go as far as to quip about the succinctness
of 6th Edition being "fixed" by 4BSD?
I've usually attributed BSD's larger size to the enthusiasm of students who
delight in adding nifty little toys and tools and options. Although "the Unix
Philosophy" gets invoked in hushed tones today, there was presumably fewer fingers
being wagged at the Berkeley kids for daring to experiment (except when they filled up the
disk).
john
7:34 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:37 PM Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It seems like Unix is largely a child of the coasts.
We can add the eastern coast of Australia, where the original Wollongong
group made the first V6 port to the Interdata 7/32 (not to be confused with
the Labs port to the 8/32). The Western U.S. company of the same name was
formed to sell it, but I don't know if any of the Ozites moved to Palo Alto.
8:17 p.m.
I see a stylistic connection between the style of writing of the manuals
and the New York journalism, especially that of the New Yorker. When I
arrived at Bell Labs, I was a little taken aback by the change of culture
in writing, dressing, and entertainment compared to my years as a grad
student in California. I mean, I fit in - I subscribed to the New Yorker -
but I felt like a bum in a room full of high society folk.
That feeling never really left.
-rob
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 6:35 AM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:37 PM Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It seems like Unix is largely a child of the coasts.
We can add the eastern coast of Australia, where the original Wollongong
group made the first V6 port to the Interdata 7/32 (not to be confused with
the Labs port to the 8/32). The Western U.S. company of the same name was
formed to sell it, but I don't know if any of the Ozites moved to Palo Alto.
8:25 p.m.
Bit of this in ietf too. Inner cohort of vint and similar background wear
three piece suits.
Three: vest not optional.
A west coast mob wear tie-dye tees.
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022, 6:18 am Rob Pike, <robpike(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I see a stylistic connection between the style of
writing of the manuals
and the New York journalism, especially that of the New Yorker. When I
arrived at Bell Labs, I was a little taken aback by the change of culture
in writing, dressing, and entertainment compared to my years as a grad
student in California. I mean, I fit in - I subscribed to the New Yorker -
but I felt like a bum in a room full of high society folk.
That feeling never really left.
-rob
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 6:35 AM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:37 PM Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It seems like Unix is largely a child of the coasts.
We can add the eastern coast of Australia, where the original Wollongong
group made the first V6 port to the Interdata 7/32 (not to be confused with
the Labs port to the 8/32). The Western U.S. company of the same name was
formed to sell it, but I don't know if any of the Ozites moved to Palo Alto.
8:44 p.m.
Similar. Everyone at Bell Labs was so *proper*. (Except Ken, of course.
Ken is *sui generis*, and a Californian).
I'm sure it wasn't really me, but it felt like I was the first person to
utter a curse word in the Unix room.
-rob
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:26 AM George Michaelson <ggm(a)algebras.org> wrote:
Bit of this in ietf too. Inner cohort of vint and
similar background wear
three piece suits.
Three: vest not optional.
A west coast mob wear tie-dye tees.
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022, 6:18 am Rob Pike, <robpike(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I see a stylistic connection between the style of writing of the manuals
> and the New York journalism, especially that of the New Yorker. When I
> arrived at Bell Labs, I was a little taken aback by the change of culture
> in writing, dressing, and entertainment compared to my years as a grad
> student in California. I mean, I fit in - I subscribed to the New Yorker -
> but I felt like a bum in a room full of high society folk.
>
> That feeling never really left.
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 6:35 AM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:37 PM Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It seems like Unix is largely a child of the coasts.
>>>
>>>
>> We can add the eastern coast of Australia, where the original Wollongong
>> group made the first V6 port to the Interdata 7/32 (not to be confused with
>> the Labs port to the 8/32). The Western U.S. company of the same name was
>> formed to sell it, but I don't know if any of the Ozites moved to Palo
Alto.
>>
>
8:57 p.m.
Rob Pike writes:
Similar. Everyone at Bell Labs was so *proper*.
(Except Ken, of course.
Ken is *sui generis*, and a Californian).
I'm sure it wasn't really me, but it felt like I was the first person to
utter a curse word in the Unix room.
That might be a technicality. I discovered the Unix room late one night
when blood sugar was running low so I hit the candy machines on the sixth
floor of building 2. While I was getting my snack, I heard a robotic
voice coming from down the hall saying "fuck fuck fuck fuck". I had to
investigate. Found a small door with a frosted glass window that had an
8.5x11 piece of paper taped to in on which was spelled out the word UNIX
in block letters in I believe black electrical tape. Opened the door to
discover that a Votrax had been acquired and that Ken and Dennis were
teaching it to swear. So they must have at least known those words.
On another technicality, I bicycled to the labs every day, naturally uphill
in both directions. Not possible to avoid sweating when pushing up Glenside
Road. And no showers available; those were for the security guards only.
Turned out that dress code was up to supervisors, and Joe Condon was fine
with me wearing shorts to work. I often got glared at when walking down the
hall and had to explain myself to the "proper" folks.
10:17 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 3:45 PM Rob Pike <robpike(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Similar. Everyone at Bell Labs was so *proper*. (Except Ken, of course.
Ken is *sui generis*, and a Californian).
Perhaps (probably maybe) I misunderstand. There was nothing "proper" about
the Peter face on the water tower, or lock-picking a boot to move it to a
patrol car, of Scott Knaur wandering the halls in a Darth Vader costume, or
Jellicat wearing a Cats costume, or a thousand other examples. There was a
lot of playfulness in the Labs (at least in the early days), and I think it
was wonderful.
10:41 p.m.
i would add the general atmosphere of the Unix room, especially the very heavy mobile hung
from
the ceiling for a while (until someone noticed the cable supporting it was visibly
stretching).
also the bowling alley (the corridor that rob, ken, denis, doug and my offices were on) —
the pins
were under the printer table at the end. i also recall the time the bowling ball got away
from the
Unix room rolling down the main corridor towards a group of visitors led by peter
weinberger.
luckily, dave presotto grabbed the ball before anyone got hurt (but it was close).
i would also mention labscam; its not often we see a prank involving rob pike, Penn and a
Noble Prize winner.
On Jan 11, 2022, at 2:17 PM, John P. Linderman
<jpl.jpl(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 3:45 PM Rob Pike <robpike(a)gmail.com
<mailto:robpike@gmail.com>> wrote:
Similar. Everyone at Bell Labs was so proper. (Except Ken, of course. Ken is sui
generis, and a Californian).
Perhaps (probably maybe) I misunderstand. There was nothing "proper" about the
Peter face on the water tower, or lock-picking a boot to move it to a patrol car, of Scott
Knaur wandering the halls in a Darth Vader costume, or Jellicat wearing a Cats costume, or
a thousand other examples. There was a lot of playfulness in the Labs (at least in the
early days), and I think it was wonderful.
12 Jan
12 Jan
12:15 a.m.
Yes, but most, if not all of things were after I arrived, among the first
of a brace of fresh hot blood imported to grow 127. Things definitely felt
looser by the mid-80s.
Look, I'm not complaining. I absolutely loved working in the CS research
group. But culturally, at least upon my arrival, I felt like a fish out of
water.
-rob
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 9:42 AM Andrew Hume <andrew(a)humeweb.com> wrote:
i would add the general atmosphere of the Unix room,
especially the very
heavy mobile hung from
the ceiling for a while (until someone noticed the cable supporting it was
visibly stretching).
also the bowling alley (the corridor that rob, ken, denis, doug and my
offices were on) — the pins
were under the printer table at the end. i also recall the time the
bowling ball got away from the
Unix room rolling down the main corridor towards a group of visitors led
by peter weinberger.
luckily, dave presotto grabbed the ball before anyone got hurt (but it was
close).
i would also mention labscam; its not often we see a prank involving rob
pike, Penn and a Noble Prize winner.
On Jan 11, 2022, at 2:17 PM, John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 3:45 PM Rob Pike <robpike(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Similar. Everyone at Bell Labs was so *proper*. (Except Ken, of course.
Ken is *sui generis*, and a Californian).
Perhaps (probably maybe) I misunderstand. There was nothing "proper" about
the Peter face on the water tower, or lock-picking a boot to move it to a
patrol car, of Scott Knaur wandering the halls in a Darth Vader costume, or
Jellicat wearing a Cats costume, or a thousand other examples. There was a
lot of playfulness in the Labs (at least in the early days), and I think it
was wonderful.
11 Jan
11 Jan
10:14 p.m.
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 06:25:52AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote:
Bit of this in ietf too. Inner cohort of vint and
similar background wear
three piece suits.
Three: vest not optional.
A west coast mob wear tie-dye tees.
I can remember plenty of east coast IETF'ers (including for example,
Jeff Schiller, the Security Area Director, who was based out of MIT
and grew up in New York) sporting hot pick "Nerds in Paradise"
T-shirts commerating the 15th IETF meeting held in Honolulu. Vint was
very much the exception with his three-piece suit. I can't think of
anyone else who would even wear a tie.
- Ted
13 Jan
13 Jan
3:44 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 3:18 PM Rob Pike <robpike(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I see a stylistic connection between the style of
writing of the manuals
and the New York journalism, especially that of the New Yorker.
Oh that's really interesting; as a New Yorker who subscribes to the New
Yorker, this makes so much sense and is certainly more sensible than my
hypothesized connection with Warhol and the Factory.
- Dan C.
12 Jan
12 Jan
11:15 p.m.
On Tuesday, 11 January 2022 at 14:34:16 -0500, John Cowan wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:37 PM Dan Cross
<crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
To be fair, in the case of Australia almost everybody is on the east
coast, though we have had our share of FreeBSD core team members from
the "west coast" (which is really only Perth).
Greg
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It seems like Unix is largely a child of the
coasts.
We can add the eastern coast of Australia, where the original
Wollongong group made the first V6 port to the Interdata 7/32 (not
to be confused with the Labs port to the 8/32). 
13 Jan
13 Jan
1:34 a.m.
Moving to COFF, but Brian Dear's "The Friendly Orange Glow", about Plato,
talks a lot about some of the cool stuff happening in the middle of the
country.
https://www.amazon.com/Friendly-Orange-Glow-Untold-Cyberculture/dp/11019736…
And later, of course, NCSA Mosaic.
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 4:15 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 January 2022 at 14:34:16 -0500, John
Cowan wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:37 PM Dan Cross
<crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
To be fair, in the case of Australia almost everybody is on the east
coast, though we have had our share of FreeBSD core team members from
the "west coast" (which is really only Perth).
Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php
It seems like Unix is largely a child of the
coasts.
We can add the eastern coast of Australia, where the original
Wollongong group made the first V6 port to the Interdata 7/32 (not
to be confused with the Labs port to the 8/32).
3:37 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 2:34 PM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:37 PM Dan Cross
<crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Oh certainly. I didn't mean for my list of locations other than Berkeley
and Murray Hill to be exhaustive, nor to disregard the important work done
elsewhere (including of course Australia).
- Dan C.
It seems like Unix is largely a child of the
coasts.
We can add the eastern coast of Australia, where the original Wollongong
group made the first V6 port to the Interdata 7/32 (not to be confused with
the Labs port to the 8/32). The Western U.S. company of the same name was
formed to sell it, but I don't know if any of the Ozites moved to Palo Alto.
4:32 p.m.
On Jan 11, 2022, at 11:34 AM, John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:37 PM Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com
<mailto:crossd@gmail.com>> wrote:
It seems like Unix is largely a child of the coasts.
We can add the eastern coast of Australia, where the original Wollongong group made the
first V6 port to the Interdata 7/32 (not to be confused with the Labs port to the 8/32).
The Western U.S. company of the same name was formed to sell it, but I don't know if
any of the Ozites moved to Palo Alto.
This port to Interdata 7/32 was done by Richard Miller @ the University of Wollongong.
AFAIK he is a Canadian (now living in the UK). No idea if any Canadian coastal cultures
were involved! Much later he also did the plan9 port to the first RaspberryPi &
subsequent models. His coding style is certainly quite minimal.
4:48 p.m.
What about Jim Culp and IIASA? Didn't he do the first BSD job control
stuff? What else did they provide?
5:20 p.m.
On Jan 13, 2022, at 8:48 AM, Richard Salz <rich.salz(a)gmail.com> wrote:
What about Jim Culp and IIASA? Didn't he do the first BSD job control stuff? What
else did they provide?
Indeed he did. IIASA is in landlocked Austria! I read about this a very long time ago so
don't recall if there was anything else as significant. ^Z was very useful when we
didn't have a graphics display and multiple windows. Even now I have a few ^Z'ed
processes lying about!
7:56 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 12:20 PM Bakul Shah <bakul(a)iitbombay.org> wrote:
Even now I have a few ^Z'ed processes lying
about!
So do I. The mysql client process is one I need occasionally and I don't
want to dedicate another tab to it, but it's a pain in the ass to log in
every time I do need it. So I keep it in the background of my "general
purposes" tab, and fg it whenever I need it. The trick is to remember to
type ^Z instead of ^D when I'm finished.
835
days inactive
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19 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
Adam Thornton -
Andrew Hume -
Bakul Shah -
Dan Cross -
George Michaelson -
Greg 'groggy' Lehey -
John Cowan -
John Floren -
John P. Linderman -
Jon Steinhart -
Larry McVoy -
Richard Salz -
Rob Pike -
Theodore Ts'o