v7 uucp debugging help requested

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Adam Thornton

3 Jul 2020 3 Jul '20

8:52 p.m.

(if this is better suited for COFF, that'd be fine too) I've been trying to set up UUCP on my V7 system and its raspberry Pi host. This plus the "s" editor (already working) are really all that's needed to make this something pretty close to a daily driver, if all I wanted to do was write text files (which in some sense is all my job _is_, but to be fair I get a much more immediate feedback loop in my current environment). I was following https://github.com/jwbrase/pdp11-tools/blob/master/howtos/V7%20UUCP%20Insta… more or less--I had already rebuilt v7 with the DZ terminal driver and was using it for interactive sessions (albeit, before I started trying to get UUCP running, with 7-bit line discipline--but I've since changed that). I have 16 DZ lines, I've set them to 8-bit mode. They're working fine, because I can use them for terminal sessions. I've built UUCP, set a node name, and set it up on the pi. I can execute uucico to send files, and it, frustratingly, almost works.

...

From the Pi side, I see (with uulog):

uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:11:34.97 23106) Calling system v7 (port TCP) uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:11:42.25 23106) Login successful uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:11:44.44 23106) Handshake successful (protocol 'g' sending packet/window 64/3 receiving 64/7) uucico v7 adam (2020-07-03 08:11:51.61 23106) Sending /home/adam/git/simh/sim_scsi.h (6780 bytes) uucico v7 adam (2020-07-03 08:16:21.79 23106) ERROR: Timed out waiting for packet uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:16:21.80 23106) Protocol 'g' packets: sent 86, resent 6, received 1 uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:16:21.80 23106) Errors: header 2, checksum 0, order 0, remote rejects 0 uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:16:22.51 23106) Call complete (283 seconds 5440 bytes 19 bps) So it's clearly logging in, and if I telnet in directly, the v7 end is starting uucico as expected: login: pi-uucp Password: Shere uulog -x on the v7 side has no output, and nothing ever appears in the spool directory, which I suspect is a direct result of the timeout waiting for packet. So my question is, what else do I do to debug this? Clearly the pi (Taylor UUCP) side is expecting something else--maybe an acknowledgement?--from the v7 side to let it know the transmission was successful. Any help would be appreciated. Adam

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Clem Cole

3 Jul 3 Jul

9:26 p.m.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 4:54 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

As a long time UUCP person on PDP-11's, "Danger Will Robinson." Just for grins and giggles on the V7/PDP-11 side, try it over a DH (VH driver in simh) emulation (or even a KL/DL - although the simulated interrupts will be a mother). That said, the VH driver is a not exactly a DH as I understand it, its the later QBUS version which was similar but different. It's been on my list of things I want to chase down at some point to make work to get it closer to the original. FYI: Running UUCP over real DZ's was always troublesome. There were a ton of updates/patches done post the original V7 release in the DZ drivers to make them play better. Most of us that ran large UUCP set up in the old days, installed ABLE DMAX (DH/DM) that were a single board DH replacement - they are DMA, and buffered (and supported proper modem control which the DZ's don't - although later UCB work on the driver sort of faked it enough to make to it work for basic dial-up use reasonably reliably).

Grant Taylor

10:38 p.m.

On 7/3/20 2:52 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:

...

I've built UUCP, set a node name, and set it up on the pi. I can execute uucico to send files, and it, frustratingly, almost works.

Which system are you referring to here? The Pi or V7?

...

From the Pi side, I see (with uulog): uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:11:34.97 23106) Calling system v7 (port TCP) uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:11:42.25 23106) Login successful uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:11:44.44 23106) Handshake successful (protocol 'g' sending packet/window 64/3 receiving 64/7) uucico v7 adam (2020-07-03 08:11:51.61 23106) Sending /home/adam/git/simh/sim_scsi.h (6780 bytes) uucico v7 adam (2020-07-03 08:16:21.79 23106) ERROR: Timed out waiting for packet uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:16:21.80 23106) Protocol 'g' packets: sent 86, resent 6, received 1

I'm a little surprised that you're trying to use the 'g' protocol to talk to v7. I thought the 'g' protocol came out later for TCP over Ethernet connections. As such I wonder if UUCP on v7 supports the 'g' protocol. I think that Clem knows a LOT more about this than I do. I'm ignorantly asking questions.

...

uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:16:21.80 23106) Errors: header 2, checksum 0, order 0, remote rejects 0 uucico v7 - (2020-07-03 08:16:22.51 23106) Call complete (283 seconds 5440 bytes 19 bps) So it's clearly logging in, and if I telnet in directly, the v7 end is starting uucico as expected: login: pi-uucp Password: Shere

Shouldn't that be something more like the following? Shere=v7 What does 'uuname -l' (or '--local') show? (I'm much more familiar with Taylor UUCP than I am the UUCP in v7.

...

uulog -x on the v7 side has no output, and nothing ever appears in the spool directory, which I suspect is a direct result of the timeout waiting for packet. So my question is, what else do I do to debug this? Clearly the pi (Taylor UUCP) side is expecting something else--maybe an acknowledgement?--from the v7 side to let it know the transmission was successful. Any help would be appreciated.

I've not messed with this particular problem in probably 2 years and I've forgotten more than comments above. -- Grant. . . . unix || die

Clem Cole

4 Jul 4 Jul

12:28 a.m.

Grant - The g (greg’s protocol) is correct. IIRC that’s the only line protocol Dan distributed in the V7 original code base. On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 6:46 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

...

On 7/3/20 2:52 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:

I've built UUCP, set a node name, and set it up on the pi. I can execute uucico to send files, and it, frustratingly, almost works.

Which system are you referring to here? The Pi or V7?

Shouldn't that be something more like the following? Shere=v7 What does 'uuname -l' (or '--local') show? (I'm much more familiar with Taylor UUCP than I am the UUCP in v7.

I've not messed with this particular problem in probably 2 years and I've forgotten more than comments above. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --

Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

Clem Cole

12:31 a.m.

Grant. I wrote e for Ethernet based ( ip/ tcp ) connections at Masscomp so we didn’t have hack the mailer at time. On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 6:46 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

...

On 7/3/20 2:52 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:

I've built UUCP, set a node name, and set it up on the pi. I can execute uucico to send files, and it, frustratingly, almost works.

Which system are you referring to here? The Pi or V7?

Shouldn't that be something more like the following? Shere=v7 What does 'uuname -l' (or '--local') show? (I'm much more familiar with Taylor UUCP than I am the UUCP in v7.

I've not messed with this particular problem in probably 2 years and I've forgotten more than comments above. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --

Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

Adam Thornton

7:33 p.m.

v7 UUCP has no uuname command: I get uucp, uux, uuxqt, uucico, uulog, and uuclean. The makefile also includes uurecover but it's not part of the default targets. uucp, uulog, and uux go in /bin, the others in /usr/lib/uucp. It does look like there are debug statements in cico.c; I'll try connecting from the pi side manually and invoking uucico -x 7 and seeing what happens. Adam On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 3:46 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

...

On 7/3/20 2:52 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:

I've built UUCP, set a node name, and set it up on the pi. I can execute uucico to send files, and it, frustratingly, almost works.

Which system are you referring to here? The Pi or V7?

Shouldn't that be something more like the following? Shere=v7 What does 'uuname -l' (or '--local') show? (I'm much more familiar with Taylor UUCP than I am the UUCP in v7.

I've not messed with this particular problem in probably 2 years and I've forgotten more than comments above. -- Grant. . . . unix || die

Clem Cole

8:02 p.m.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 3:34 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

v7 UUCP has no uuname command: I get uucp, uux, uuxqt, uucico, uulog, and uuclean.

Yep - that was BSDism, the version 3BSD -- uuname.c <https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3BSD/usr/src/cmd/uucp/uuname.c> should just recompile and manpage is very google-able.

Adam Thornton

9:58 p.m.

Yup, and the output is exactly what I would expect: # ./uuname Format 16bitpi # ./uuname -l v7 That is, locally I am v7, and the only remote host I know about is 16bitpi. Adam On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:02 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:

...

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 3:34 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

v7 UUCP has no uuname command: I get uucp, uux, uuxqt, uucico, uulog, and uuclean.

Yep - that was BSDism, the version 3BSD -- uuname.c <https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3BSD/usr/src/cmd/uucp/uuname.c> should just recompile and manpage is very google-able.

Adam Thornton

5 Jul 5 Jul

5:42 a.m.

Jon Brase on the PiDP-11 list solved the problem for me. For future reference, you need to dedicate a tty line/host TCP port to the UUCP line, and tell simh to use it notelnet. e.g.: set dz en set dz lines=16 att -m dz 1107 # UUCP needs 8 bits set dz 8b att dz -am line=4,1729;notelnet And then on the Taylor UUCP side, point the UUCP port at localhost:1729 (rather than 1107). Adam On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 2:58 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 3:34 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

v7 UUCP has no uuname command: I get uucp, uux, uuxqt, uucico, uulog, and uuclean.

Yep - that was BSDism, the version 3BSD -- uuname.c <https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3BSD/usr/src/cmd/uucp/uuname.c> should just recompile and manpage is very google-able.

John Cowan

3 Jul 3 Jul

10:50 p.m.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 4:54 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I've been trying to set up UUCP on my V7 system and its raspberry Pi host. This plus the "s" editor (already working)

What is this "s" editor? The v7 man pages say nothing about it, and of course Dr. Google is equally unhelpful. John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan(a)ccil.org We call nothing profound that is not wittily expressed. --Northrop Frye (improved)

Adam Thornton

4 Jul 4 Jul

4:33 p.m.

The "s" editor is written by Webb Miller and appears in his book "A Software Tools Sampler." There was a discussion about it...here, or COFF, or cctalk, or the PiDP-11 mailing list....a few months ago. Someone had already done the lifting to make it classic v7-compatible, but I don't remember who. Its interface is very close to vi, but it is quite compact and works well on v7. I have a fork of it that has the needed tweaks for PDP-11 v7 up at https://github.com/athornton/s . Since I find ed thoroughly unpleasant to use, having a screen editor was a must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role rather nicely. Adam On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 3:50 PM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:

...

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 4:54 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I've been trying to set up UUCP on my V7 system and its raspberry Pi host. This plus the "s" editor (already working)

John Cowan

6:34 p.m.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 12:33 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote: The "s" editor is written by Webb Miller and appears in his book "A

...

Software Tools Sampler."

Wow, I never knew about this book, though I know ST and STP well, and used ST on RSX-11/M+ and VAX/VMS for $EMPLOYER in the 1980s. Is the rest of the source code for the book available online anywhere? Jez Higgins is rewriting the STP tools into modern C++. His blog posts are at <https://www.jezuk.co.uk/tags/software-tools-in-c++.html> and the code is at <https://github.com/jezhiggins/stiX>. He's rewritten the tools in chapters 1 and 2 and part of 3. Since I find ed thoroughly unpleasant to use, having a screen editor was a

...

must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role rather nicely.

Gotcha. I actually like line editors (you can't mung your file so thoroughly with a single stray keystroke), but I'm willing to trade a little standardosity for additional convenience, so I do almost all my editing of prose and programs in `ex`, occasionally dropping into vi-mode for matching open and close markers in Lisp and XML. John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan(a)ccil.org If you have ever wondered if you are in hell, it has been said, then you are on a well-traveled road of spiritual inquiry. If you are absolutely sure you are in hell, however, then you must be on the Cross Bronx Expressway. --Alan Feuer, New York Times, 2002-09-20

Jon Forrest

6:44 p.m.

On 7/4/2020 11:34 AM, John Cowan wrote:

...

The "s" editor is written by Webb Miller and appears in his book "A Software Tools Sampler." Wow, I never knew about this book, though I know ST and STP well, and used ST on RSX-11/M+ and VAX/VMS for $EMPLOYER in the 1980s.

As I mentioned last time this topic came up, I have a copy of this book for sale. Please contact me offlist if you're interested. Jon

Adam Thornton

7:34 p.m.

I don't know of the other tools being available, but...it does look like I will have this book on Interlibrary Loan for .... quite a while longer. No promises, but if I get bored this summer..... Adam On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 11:34 AM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:

...

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 12:33 PM Adam Thornton <athornton(a)gmail.com> wrote: The "s" editor is written by Webb Miller and appears in his book "A

Software Tools Sampler."

must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role rather nicely.

Dave Horsfall

6 Jul 6 Jul

4:12 a.m.

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, Adam Thornton wrote:

...

Since I find ed thoroughly unpleasant to use, having a screen editor was a must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role rather nicely.

A boss of mine insisted that we all learned "ed", because one day it might be the only editor available to you after a crash; he was right... -- Dave

Warner Losh

4:18 a.m.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2020, 10:14 PM Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:

...

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, Adam Thornton wrote:

Since I find ed thoroughly unpleasant to use, having a screen editor was a must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role rather nicely.

A boss of mine insisted that we all learned "ed", because one day it might be the only editor available to you after a crash; he was right...

I should do that... So far I've managed to get by with sed :) Warner

...

arnold＠skeeve.com

6:51 a.m.

Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:

...

On Sun, Jul 5, 2020, 10:14 PM Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, Adam Thornton wrote:

Since I find ed thoroughly unpleasant to use, having a screen editor was a must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role rather nicely.

A boss of mine insisted that we all learned "ed", because one day it might be the only editor available to you after a crash; he was right...

I should do that... So far I've managed to get by with sed :) Warner >

If you know the ex subset of vi, you know most of what you need to know to use ed ... Arnold

Michael Usher

7:11 a.m.

I actually like ed and sam. I find it "soothing" to be able to manipulate text almost "programmatically".... As an undergrad at USyd EE Dept, the VT100s in the computer lab were often all taken, but there were a few LA30s still hooked up and no-one wanted to use them. I learned how to optimally enter, compile and debug code through a paper interface. It was VMS of course at EE, but when I started using the Unix systems at CS a year later, the 11/750 was so heavily loaded that "ed" was the best choice for getting assignments done quickly. Line editors were also much more pleasant to use over slow modem connections. I had a 28.8k modem but the dialup pool rarely got you a high speed connection... But back to the original topic... Has the MHSnet code made it into the public domain? Michael On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 11:52 PM <arnold(a)skeeve.com> wrote:

...

Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:

On Sun, Jul 5, 2020, 10:14 PM Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote: > On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, Adam Thornton wrote: > > > Since I find ed thoroughly unpleasant to use, having a screen editor

was

> > a must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role > > rather nicely. > > A boss of mine insisted that we all learned "ed", because one day it

might

be the only editor available to you after a crash; he was right...

I should do that... So far I've managed to get by with sed :) Warner >

If you know the ex subset of vi, you know most of what you need to know to use ed ... Arnold

-- Michael Usher Senior Wireless Network Engineer University of California, Santa Cruz musher(a)ucsc.edu 831-459-3697

Clem Cole

1:57 p.m.

I always recommend doing the exercises in Rob and Brian's UPE on ed because then everything else makes sense, like sed or any other editor. Plus you get the advantage you point out, and the reality is that so many simpler editors (like edlin) have similar functionality, it means you can get something done, just about anywhere. On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 12:14 AM Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:

...

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, Adam Thornton wrote:

Since I find ed thoroughly unpleasant to use, having a screen editor was a must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role rather nicely.

A boss of mine insisted that we all learned "ed", because one day it might be the only editor available to you after a crash; he was right... -- Dave

John Cowan

6:51 p.m.

I fall back to ed or tr when I hit the bug in vim that prevents you from inserting a newline with the s command (it inserts a NUL instead). On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 9:59 AM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:

...

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, Adam Thornton wrote:

Since I find ed thoroughly unpleasant to use, having a screen editor

was

a must for me to use v7 for any length of time, and s fills that role rather nicely.

A boss of mine insisted that we all learned "ed", because one day it might be the only editor available to you after a crash; he was right... -- Dave

arnold＠skeeve.com

7:19 p.m.

John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:

...

I fall back to ed or tr when I hit the bug in vim that prevents you from inserting a newline with the s command (it inserts a NUL instead).

Huh? I've never seen this, in over 20 years of using vim. To insert a newline just use s/foobar/foo^V^Mbar/ where ^V^M are Control-V Control-M. Arnold

John Cowan

7:36 p.m.

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM <arnold(a)skeeve.com> wrote: Huh? I've never seen this, in over 20 years of using vim. To

...

insert a newline just use s/foobar/foo^V^Mbar/ where ^V^M are Control-V Control-M.

I never thought of that; I've always tried what works in ed, namely: s/foobar/foo\ bar and that gives me foo^@bar I call that a bug. (This is vim 8.1). It certainly wouldn't occur to me to use ^V^M, anyhow: ^V^J would seem more reasonable, but ^V is ignored in that context. Before vim 7 there was a bug so bad I had to use nvi (and, often enough, compile it from source): at that time, undo undid everything back to the last action in vi-mode. If you had never been in vi-mode (as I usually had not) it undid everything back to the last file-loading command! That one made me grind my teeth a lot. Even now I habitually write before undoing, just in case. John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan(a)ccil.org A male Jang appeared at my side. "Get a grip on yourself," he said. "Get a grip on your graks," I suggested. --Tanith Lee, Drinking Sapphire Wine

John Cowan

7:58 p.m.

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:36 PM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote: I call that a bug. (This is vim 8.1).

...

To be precise, this is now https://github.com/vim/vim/issues/6411. Feel free to upvote. John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan(a)ccil.org MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE WUGGUMS

Clem Cole

8:48 p.m.

below... On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:36 PM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:

...

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM <arnold(a)skeeve.com> wrote: Huh? I've never seen this, in over 20 years of using vim. To

insert a newline just use s/foobar/foo^V^Mbar/ where ^V^M are Control-V Control-M.

I never thought of that; I've always tried what works in ed, namely: s/foobar/foo\ bar

need a closing / for ed, but ex/vi accepts the naked version.

...

and that gives me foo^@bar I call that a bug. (This is vim 8.1).

In fairness, early vi did this too. nvi (Bostic's rewrite) which came out around 4.3 or 4.4 fixed it.

...

It certainly wouldn't occur to me to use ^V^M, anyhow: ^V^J would seem more reasonable, but ^V is ignored in that context.

I agree, I have tried to us the ^V^J idiom with different success. Since vim has been forced down my throat, I tend to not try it, and as you say, switch editors when I need to add a newline.

...

Before vim 7 there was a bug so bad I had to use nvi (and, often enough, compile it from source): at that time, undo undid everything back to the last action in vi-mode. If you had never been in vi-mode (as I usually had not) it undid everything back to the last file-loading command! That one made me grind my teeth a lot. Even now I habitually write before undoing, just in case.

Amen ... vim's undo can be ... a ... challenging for original vi user - but that has been debated here a few times and I'd rather not see another war. Clem

arnold＠skeeve.com

7 Jul 7 Jul

6:21 a.m.

Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:

...

It certainly wouldn't occur to me to use ^V^M, anyhow: ^V^J would seem more reasonable, but ^V is ignored in that context.

I agree, I have tried to us the ^V^J idiom with different success. Since vim has been forced down my throat, I tend to not try it, and as you say, switch editors when I need to add a newline.

As I said, ^V^M has worked flawlessly for me for > 20 years. Arnold

Win Treese

10 Jul 10 Jul

5:05 a.m.

...

On Jul 6, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:

I never thought of that; I've always tried what works in ed, namely: s/foobar/foo\ bar

need a closing / for ed, but ex/vi accepts the naked version.

In the mid 1980s, when I was working at MIT’s Project Athena, one day Jerry Saltzer (MIT CS professor, known for work on CTSS and Multics, among other things, and Technical Director for Athena) called me into his office. He was trying to edit a file with ed on his IBM PC/RT workstation, which was running IBM’s variant of 4.2BSD on it, and he wanted to know why his search /foo wasn’t working. I typed /foo/, and everything was fine. He looked at it and muttered, “Oh, you have to end it with a slash? When I wrote this for CTSS, you didn’t need to do that.” - Win

Warner Losh

5:19 a.m.

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 11:13 PM Win Treese <treese(a)acm.org> wrote:

...

On Jul 6, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:

I never thought of that; I've always tried what works in ed, namely: s/foobar/foo\ bar

need a closing / for ed, but ex/vi accepts the naked version.

Kids today.... get off my damn regex... even turning couldn't complete this lot. Bah :) Warner

...

Dave Horsfall

14 Jul 14 Jul

2:52 a.m.

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020, Warner Losh wrote:

...

He looked at it and muttered, “Oh, you have to end it with a slash? When I wrote this for CTSS, you didn’t need to do that.” Kids today.... get off my damn regex... even turning couldn't complete this lot. Bah

I can see that a lot of people havent used CDC gear :-) s:/old//new/ -- Dave

Dave Horsfall

6 Jul 6 Jul

9:47 p.m.

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, arnold(a)skeeve.com wrote:

...

Huh? I've never seen this, in over 20 years of using vim. To insert a newline just use s/foobar/foo^V^Mbar/

I'm surprised that not more people know about the ^V "escape next character" trick. -- Dave

arnold＠skeeve.com

7 Jul 7 Jul

6:23 a.m.

Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:

...

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, arnold(a)skeeve.com wrote:

Huh? I've never seen this, in over 20 years of using vim. To insert a newline just use s/foobar/foo^V^Mbar/

I'm surprised that not more people know about the ^V "escape next character" trick. -- Dave

It's described quite clearly in O'Reilly's book on vi and vim (coauthored by yours truly - plug, plug :-). Arnold

Dave Horsfall

9:45 p.m.

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020, arnold(a)skeeve.com wrote:

...

I'm surprised that not more people know about the ^V "escape next character" trick.

It's described quite clearly in O'Reilly's book on vi and vim (coauthored by yours truly - plug, plug :-).

Never read the book, since I'd already known VI by then :-) I'm not sure where I picked it up; possibly from the manpage? But we know the saying about programmers not reading documentation... -- Dave

Dave Horsfall

6 Jul 6 Jul

9:18 p.m.

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Clem Cole wrote:

...

There was also the client we had in PNG, where access was via a flakey 1200 modem i.e. no error correction, and VI was out of the question. I learned to use ED when V5 first appeared (down-under) in the 70s (it was the *only* editor) and I'm glad that I did. I must grab a copy of UPE and read it again, just for old times' sake. -- Dave

John Cowan

9:47 p.m.

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 5:19 PM Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:

...

There was also the client we had in PNG, where access was via a flakey 1200 modem i.e. no error correction, and VI was out of the question.

The old 'o' command (which does the same as 'vi' in vim) was designed for that situation, provided your terminal isn't a printing one. A one-line window is cheap enough; backspace and carriage-return give you everything you need. John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan(a)ccil.org The Imperials are decadent, 300 pound free-range chickens (except they have teeth, arms instead of wings, and dinosaurlike tails). --Elyse Grasso

Greg 'groggy' Lehey

7 Jul 7 Jul

1:30 a.m.

New subject: Editors (was: v7 uucp debugging help requested)

On Monday, 6 July 2020 at 9:57:49 -0400, Clem Cole wrote:

...

I always recommend doing the exercises in Rob and Brian's UPE on ed because then everything else makes sense, like sed or any other editor...

People (not just Clem), when you change the topic, can you please modify the Subject: to match? I'm not overly interested in uucp, but editors are a completely different matter. I'm sure I'm not the only one, so many interested parties will miss these replies. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

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participants (11)

Adam Thornton
arnold＠skeeve.com
Clem Cole
Dave Horsfall
Grant Taylor
Greg 'groggy' Lehey
John Cowan
Jon Forrest
Michael Usher
Warner Losh
Win Treese