21 Jul
2025
21 Jul
'25
11:04 a.m.
Hi All.
As a back burner project, I have the sources for a book, given to me
by the author, from around 1981. It was originally formatted using
the device independent troff suite. It used the -ms macros plus an
additional set of custom macros. I have the additional macros.
The book used tbl and pic. A quick grep does not find any instances
of .EQ, so it looks like eqn isn't needed.
I would like to be able to format the book and generate PDF.
What's the best way to go about this? Using groff in compatibility
mode? Or the Heirloom troff suite? If the latter, what's the
canonical location for it?
I will be working on Linux, Ubuntu 24.04.
Any and all advice will be welcome.
Thanks,
Arnold
21 Jul
21 Jul
11:39 a.m.
Hi Arnold,
Or the Heirloom troff suite? If the latter,
what's the canonical
location for it?
I think it's https://n-t-roff.github.io/heirloom/doctools.html
Could you use a late-edition Unix as an alternative?
--
Cheers, Ralph.
11:52 a.m.
Ralph Corderoy <ralph(a)inputplus.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Arnold,
Much thanks. I will try to give this a spin. My round tuits are
on the way from Amazon and should arrive in about two weeks.
Or the Heirloom troff suite? If the latter,
what's the canonical
location for it?
I think it's https://n-t-roff.github.io/heirloom/doctools.html Could you use a late-edition Unix as an alternative?
No, I don't have any kind of SimH setup and that's overkill. In
particular I want to be able to use Git so that I can make changes
if necessary.
Thanks!
Arnold
12:15 p.m.
Hi Arnold,
I was thinking the native makefile would update a disk image, then have
the simulated system mount that ‘disk’, run the hosted make, and
unmount. Or any other means to sync the native files to the old system
just for the build step.
But I agree that could be a faff if you just want to get the book built.
Heirloom's a good starting place.
--
Cheers, Ralph.
Could you use
a late-edition Unix as an alternative?
No, I don't have any kind of SimH setup and that's overkill.
In particular I want to be able to use Git so that I can make changes
if necessary.
1:16 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 01:15:30PM +0100, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
Hi Arnold,
I was thinking the native makefile would update a disk image, then have
the simulated system mount that ???disk???, run the hosted make, and
unmount. Or any other means to sync the native files to the old system
just for the build step.
But I agree that could be a faff if you just want to get the book built.
Heirloom's a good starting place.
Have you just tried groff? I'm guessing you have, it produced something,
but you are not sure it is correct?
For me, groff tends to just work.
Could you
use a late-edition Unix as an alternative?
No, I don't have any kind of SimH setup and that's overkill.
In particular I want to be able to use Git so that I can make changes
if necessary.
3:10 p.m.
Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 01:15:30PM +0100, Ralph
Corderoy wrote:
For me too. I haven't tried anything yet. My gut feel is that using
original troff will be the fastest path, but I may try groff.
As to Plan 9 troff, I don't have a Plan 9 system, and don't want to
spend the time right now to climb that learning curve.
Thanks everyone,
Arnold
Hi Arnold,
I was thinking the native makefile would update a disk image, then have
the simulated system mount that ???disk???, run the hosted make, and
unmount. Or any other means to sync the native files to the old system
just for the build step.
But I agree that could be a faff if you just want to get the book built.
Heirloom's a good starting place.
Have you just tried groff? I'm guessing you have, it produced something,
but you are not sure it is correct?
For me, groff tends to just work. Could you
use a late-edition Unix as an alternative?
No, I don't have any kind of SimH setup and that's overkill.
In particular I want to be able to use Git so that I can make changes
if necessary.
4:39 p.m.
Hi Arnold,
My gut feel is that using original troff will be the
fastest path
Mine too; less discrepencies to first notice, and then resolve.
As to Plan 9 troff, I don't have a Plan 9 system
Russ Cox's Plan 9 from User Space? It includes troff and friends.
https://9fans.github.io/plan9port/
--
Cheers, Ralph.
22 Jul
22 Jul
7:21 a.m.
Ralph Corderoy <ralph(a)inputplus.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks Ralph (and Dan C.). I'd forgotten about that.
Arnold
As to Plan 9
troff, I don't have a Plan 9 system
Russ Cox's Plan 9 from User Space? It includes troff and friends.
https://9fans.github.io/plan9port/ 
21 Jul
21 Jul
4:41 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 11:17 AM <arnold(a)skeeve.com> wrote:
For me too. I haven't tried anything yet. My gut
feel is that using
original troff will be the fastest path, but I may try groff.
Heirloom is certainly a viable way to go to start.
As to Plan 9 troff, I don't have a Plan 9 system,
and don't want to
spend the time right now to climb that learning curve.
I can appreciate that, but just a quick reminder about and a small
plug for "Plan 9 from Userspace", where most of the libraries and
tools have been ported to Unix-y style systems, including troff and
the associated pieces: https://github.com/9fans/plan9port/
- Dan C.
1:44 p.m.
Maybe plan 9 troff?
aap
On 21/07/25, arnold(a)skeeve.com wrote:
Hi All.
As a back burner project, I have the sources for a book, given to me
by the author, from around 1981. It was originally formatted using
the device independent troff suite. It used the -ms macros plus an
additional set of custom macros. I have the additional macros.
The book used tbl and pic. A quick grep does not find any instances
of .EQ, so it looks like eqn isn't needed.
I would like to be able to format the book and generate PDF.
What's the best way to go about this? Using groff in compatibility
mode? Or the Heirloom troff suite? If the latter, what's the
canonical location for it?
I will be working on Linux, Ubuntu 24.04.
Any and all advice will be welcome.
Thanks,
Arnold
2:10 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 7:04 AM <arnold(a)skeeve.com> wrote:
I will be working on Linux, Ubuntu 24.04.
Can't speak for Linux, but the original ditroff kit from AT&T troff
toolchest and the original Adobe transcript just compiled on macOS the last
time I tried.
That said, I have mostly switched to groff as Larry mentioned, but I have a
couple of things that I don't want to introduce artifacts, and when I did
that, I always used the real thing.
One thing to be careful of is that if you are creating PS (or later PDF),
you might want to consider transcript, although later versions of ditroff,
AT&T included dpost(1troff). Depending when the book was built, the
original AT&T ditroff tables only supported the Meganthaler, the APS5 and
/C/A/T and you needed to purchase Transcript from Adobe to get the psdit()
command and the tables [At Masscomp to cut down on support at the time, we
ate the binary redistribution for both and just included them both as our
standard troff kit].
Groff added -Tpdf, which is lacking in Transcript, but PS was de rigre in
those days, particularly with Display PostScript, so systems like macOS's
"preview" could open them directly [not so today]. You need Acrobat or a
replacement to convert [again today, I use ps2pdf from Ghostscript, but
again for things that I want as close to the original as possible, I leave
them as -Tps from ditroff and psdit.
Clem
5
days inactive
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days old
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6 participants
participants (6)
-
Angelo Papenhoff -
arnold＠skeeve.com -
Clem Cole -
Dan Cross -
Larry McVoy -
Ralph Corderoy