3 Jul
2022
3 Jul
'22
12:15 a.m.
As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing
discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they are
relevant.
Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the Unix
style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. Add
a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or
'Copyrights+Licenses'.
Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that area.
Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10,
anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - such as
something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a
subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a
sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and add a
copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs.
Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the
contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered by
different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can be
found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected
together in the top-level directory: ...*."
I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical
values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be less
ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the practical,
a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had pointed them
at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say look in
this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are
considering as examples.
Thoughts?
3 Jul
3 Jul
1:07 a.m.
I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing stuff is
quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not directly
relevant to any of its actual content or function.
=====
nygeek.net
mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home>
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed
in some licensing
discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they are
relevant.
Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the Unix
style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. Add
a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or
'Copyrights+Licenses'.
Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that area.
Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10,
anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - such as
something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a
subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a
sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and add a
copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs.
Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the
contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered by
different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can be
found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected
together in the top-level directory: ...*."
I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical
values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be less
ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the practical,
a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had pointed them
at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say look in
this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are
considering as examples.
Thoughts?
2:57 a.m.
Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and
metadata..... there already is a standard for this.
Warner
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I would call that top level directory
"metadata" ... the licensing stuff
is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not directly
relevant to any of its actual content or function.
=====
nygeek.net
mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home>
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
As part of some of simh work, I've been
immersed in some licensing
discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they are
relevant.
Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the Unix
style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. Add
a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or
'Copyrights+Licenses'.
Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that area.
Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10,
anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - such as
something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a
subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a
sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and add a
copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs.
Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the
contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered by
different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can be
found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected
together in the top-level directory: ...*."
I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical
values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be less
ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the practical,
a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had pointed them
at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say look in
this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are
considering as examples.
Thoughts?
3:02 a.m.
If I were looking for licenses "Copyrights+Licenses" would make me
find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in.
But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left.
On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just
add spdx tags and
metadata..... there already is a standard for this.
Warner
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing stuff
> is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not directly
> relevant to any of its actual content or function.
> =====
> nygeek.net
> mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing
>> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they are
>> relevant.
>>
>> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the Unix
>> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. Add
>> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or
'Copyrights+Licenses'.
>> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that area.
>> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10,
>> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - such as
>> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a
>> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a
>> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and add a
>> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs.
>>
>> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the
>> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered by
>> different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can be
>> found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected
>> together in the top-level directory: ...*."
>>
>> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical
>> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be less
>> ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the practical,
>> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had pointed them
>> at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say look in
>> this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are
>> considering as examples.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>
--
---
Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
5:54 a.m.
Agreed
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:03 PM Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
If I were looking for licenses
"Copyrights+Licenses" would make me
find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in.
But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left.
On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
Before we go inventing our own thing, let's
just add spdx tags and
metadata..... there already is a standard for this.
Warner
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing
stuff
> is quite relevant to the owner and operator
of the system, but not
directly
> relevant to any of its actual content or
function.
> =====
> nygeek.net
> mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing
>> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they
are
>> relevant.
>>
>> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the
Unix
>> style bits, I propose a small change to
Waren's top-level directory.
Add
>> a new dir called something like
'Legal Docs' or 'Copyrights+Licenses'.
>> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that
area.
>> Then add copies of anything we can
collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10,
>> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world -
such
as
>> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might
have added. Maybe add a
>> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a
>> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and
add
a
>> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even
the two GPLs.
>>
>> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the
>> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered
by
>> different licenses depending on the
specific IP. Copies of these can
be
>> found with the source code itself, but
have also been all collected
>> together in the top-level directory: ...*."
>>
>> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical
>> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be
less
>> ignorant if they could find it all
easily. In the case of the
practical,
>> a for instance, in an email with some
lawyers last week, I had
pointed them
>> at the Caldera document. I'ld have
loved to have been able to say
look in
>> this directory. The Caldera and later
Nokia Licenses are what we are
>> considering as examples.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>
--
---
Larry McVoy Retired to fishing
http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
8:03 a.m.
With spdx it would go in neither place.. spdx is prescriptive about where
the bom and such resides.
But one of the big issues with thus stuff is things like USENIX tapes and
other similar artifacts that have unclear or no license data still extant
from the time, if there ever was. Or licenses that are poorly crafted. Some
items have good and clear title, but many do not. Unix itself has an
unclear chain of ownership at the time the ancient licenses were granted,
especially in light of rulings in some court cases (some of which conflict
in their finer points). We likely do not want to be in the business of
judging things beyond "we have a good faith basis to think we can
distribute this"
So anything that goes beyond the simple spdx stuff, with our own extensions
makes me nervous.
Warner
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 5:54 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
Agreed
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:03 PM Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
If I were looking for licenses
"Copyrights+Licenses" would make me
find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in.
But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left.
On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
Before we go inventing our own thing, let's
just add spdx tags and
metadata..... there already is a standard for this.
Warner
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing
stuff
> is quite relevant to the owner and operator
of the system, but not
directly
> relevant to any of its actual content or
function.
> =====
> nygeek.net
> mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing
>> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they
are
>> relevant.
>>
>> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the
Unix
>> style bits, I propose a small change to
Waren's top-level
directory. Add
>> a new dir called something like
'Legal Docs' or
'Copyrights+Licenses'.
>> Then move the Caldera document and
Warren's current note into that
area.
>> Then add copies of anything we can
collect like the Dan Cross's
V8-10,
>> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or
anything we from the UNIX world -
such as
>> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might
have added. Maybe add a
>> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a
>> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community
and add
a
>> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even
the two GPLs.
>>
>> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the
>> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is
covered by
>> different licenses depending on the
specific IP. Copies of these
can be
>> found with the source code itself, but
have also been all collected
>> together in the top-level directory: ...*."
>>
>> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical
>> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be
less
>> ignorant if they could find it all
easily. In the case of the
practical,
>> a for instance, in an email with some
lawyers last week, I had
pointed them
>> at the Caldera document. I'ld have
loved to have been able to say
look in
>> this directory. The Caldera and later
Nokia Licenses are what we are
>> considering as examples.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>
--
---
Larry McVoy Retired to fishing
http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
8:27 a.m.
So I have to say "who cares?" If we were talking about a modern multi
threaded, scaled SMP, NUMA aware, knows all about the latest PCI, etc,
OS, yes, whoever owns that might care.
I love the early Unix releases because they were so simple, processors
were simple then as well.
Other than as a learning tool, which is a big deal but not a financial
big deal, the early Unix versions have no value. Nobody cares other
than us and we're, I dunno, but I would guess in the low thosands of
people.
I get that we all want the licenses to be above board but really, does
it matter? Is anyone going to do anything with these early releases?
I worked on SCO, it was early when SunOS was around and it was not
friendly compared to SunOS and SunOS is long dead. I can promise you
the number of people who care about SCO source are under 100. As in
the people who would actually compile it, I bet it is under 10.
I'm all for doing the right thing but some of the time when people talk
about the licenses, I fail to see where a lawyer or a corporation is
going to care. For them to care, they would need to see a way to make
money. Nobody is going to make money off of 50 year old Unix releases.
Heck, nobody is going to make money off of 20 year old Unix releases.
As Rob Gingell said, bits rot.
On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 08:03:12PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
With spdx it would go in neither place.. spdx is
prescriptive about where
the bom and such resides.
But one of the big issues with thus stuff is things like USENIX tapes and
other similar artifacts that have unclear or no license data still extant
from the time, if there ever was. Or licenses that are poorly crafted. Some
items have good and clear title, but many do not. Unix itself has an
unclear chain of ownership at the time the ancient licenses were granted,
especially in light of rulings in some court cases (some of which conflict
in their finer points). We likely do not want to be in the business of
judging things beyond "we have a good faith basis to think we can
distribute this"
So anything that goes beyond the simple spdx stuff, with our own extensions
makes me nervous.
Warner
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 5:54 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
> Agreed
>
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:03 PM Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> If I were looking for licenses "Copyrights+Licenses" would make me
>> find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in.
>>
>> But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
>> > Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and
>> > metadata..... there already is a standard for this.
>> >
>> > Warner
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>> >
>> > > I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the
licensing
>> stuff
>> > > is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not
>> directly
>> > > relevant to any of its actual content or function.
>> > > =====
>> > > nygeek.net
>> > > mindthegapdialogs.com/home
<https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some
licensing
>> > >> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes -
they
>> are
>> > >> relevant.
>> > >>
>> > >> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case
of the
>> Unix
>> > >> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level
>> directory. Add
>> > >> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or
>> 'Copyrights+Licenses'.
>> > >> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note
into that
>> area.
>> > >> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan
Cross's
>> V8-10,
>> > >> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world
-
>> such as
>> > >> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a
>> > >> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add
a
>> > >> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community
>> and add a
>> > >> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs.
>> > >>
>> > >> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to
the
>> > >> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website
is
>> covered by
>> > >> different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these
>> can be
>> > >> found with the source code itself, but have also been all
collected
>> > >> together in the top-level directory: ...*."
>> > >>
>> > >> I think these all have both historical values, as well as
practical
>> > >> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would
be
>> less
>> > >> ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the
>> practical,
>> > >> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had
>> pointed them
>> > >> at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able
to say
>> look in
>> > >> this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we
are
>> > >> considering as examples.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thoughts?
>> > >>
>> > >
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing
>> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
>>
> --
> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
>
--
---
Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
2:11 p.m.
On 3 Jul 2022, at 12:27, Larry McVoy
<lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
I love the early Unix releases because they were so simple, processors
were simple then as well.
Bell’s Observation on Computer Classes has brought surprises
- we’ve had some very popular new devices appear at the bottom end of the market and sell
in the billions.
Even 10yrs ago, I’d not have expected Apple to build their own Silicon & certainly not
to make a high-performance system based on ARM.
I’d expect more surprises will come, selling in huge numbers.
An obvious application area is Networking + Storage, but many other possibilities exist.
$10 interface for SATA drives to Ethernet would solve a lot of SOHO / SME storage
problems, if only a local backup to the Cloud.
MIT has produced ports of v6 for x86 & RISC-V - used for teaching purposes.
<https://github.com/mit-pdos/xv6-public>
<https://github.com/mit-pdos/xv6-riscv>
Could a version of v6 or v7 run on a microcontroller? Perhaps.
Not many versions of Linux run so leanly.
If a product based on a microcontroller & v6/v7 became a very popular product,
Copyright & Ownership might become an issue :(
Even after the “SCO v IBM” case someone might see a payday.
But why would anyone use "Version Zero" in what turned out to be quite a line of
OS’s from Dept 1127 / CSRC??
Plan 9 or Inferno - born multi-processor, network aware and embedding 30+ years experience
-
would be the obvious platform for a “new small thing”.
You’ve already covered on-list the Plan 9/ Inferno licensing, and there’s no impediment.
While Vintage Cars are fascinating to gawk at and may be rewarding to repair &
rebuild,
they don’t include modern materials, designs, performance and safety.
Fun for a hobby & special event, but not 1st choice for daily use.
I think v6 on different platforms will have a very long life in a few areas,
but is not what I’d choose for a commercial product.
steve j
--
Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design
0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA
mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin
4 Jul
4 Jul
3:38 a.m.
I think it makes sense to place standalone documents like the Caldera
license in a central location. However I don't see a lot of value in
placing copies of non-standalone license/copyright notices in a place
other than their original locations, because all these texts have
context ("/This /software is copyright ...."), which I think is
important both historically and practically.
Perhaps it would be better to create an index of license/copyright
notices that appear in the source tree, including pointers to their
containing files. Extra points for an historical analysis of the
evolution/commonality of license texts as they appear over time and
across Unix versions.
--Jay
On 7/2/2022 11:15 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed
in some licensing
discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they
are relevant.
Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the
Unix style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level
directory. Add a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or
'Copyrights+Licenses'. Then move the Caldera document and Warren's
current note into that area. Then add copies of anything we can
collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10, anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or
anything we from the UNIX world - such as something Sun, DEC or HP or
like might have added. Maybe add a subdirectory with the AT&T/USL
case details. And maybe add a sub-directory with known FOSS licenses
used by the UNIX community and add a copy of the 3-clause BSD and
maybe even the two GPLs.
Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the
contents something like "/the IP contained on this website is covered
by different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these
can be found with the source code itself, but have also been all
collected together in the top-level directory: .../."
I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical
values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be
less ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the
practical, a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I
had pointed them at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have
been able to say look in this directory. The Caldera and later
Nokia Licenses are what we are considering as examples.
Thoughts?
686
days inactive
687
days old
8 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Clem Cole -
Jay Logue -
Larry McVoy -
Marc Donner -
steve jenkin -
Warner Losh