23 Jun
2019
23 Jun
'19
11:10 p.m.
Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25"
floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have
historical interest.
First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not mine.
Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The
floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are
ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII
Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to
be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or
what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based
Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just
fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would
have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS
2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything
live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.
I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that
fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for
the early ASCII ones.
Thanks,
Mary Ann
23 Jun
23 Jun
11:52 p.m.
Does the AT&T have a serial port?
Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing with
serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port might
be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or earlier
machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old Commodore
64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive.
http://retrofloppy.com/
On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran
across a 5.25"
floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have
historical interest.
First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not
mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up.
The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which
are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are
ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to
be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or
what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based
Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just
fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would
have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS
2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have
anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with
the GRF file.
I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that
fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for
the early ASCII ones.
Thanks,
Mary Ann
24 Jun
24 Jun
12:02 a.m.
On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
Does the AT&T have a serial port?
Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing with
serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port might
be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or earlier
machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can
run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial port?
I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't
know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.
I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read
my old Commodore
64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive.
http://retrofloppy.com/
If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a recovery
service might not be necessary. IMHO it's a question of getting one or
more copies onto something else so that the existing floppy isn't the
only copy.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
12:35 a.m.
These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial (and even
USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible DB-25
plugs on the back of the PC. I'll have to figure out how to fiddle with
the baud rates and such.
I solved the GRF file puzzle. It turns out it's a text file - a Usenet
article. And the same article is in the Google archive.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal…
There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on
the floppy file, but that may be intentional. I'll have some fiddling
to do.
Mary Ann
On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
Does the AT&T have a serial port?
Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing
with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial
port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or
earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can
run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial
port?
I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't
know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.
I used a floppy recovery service a while back to
read my old
Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very
responsive.
http://retrofloppy.com/
If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a
recovery service might not be necessary. IMHO it's a question of
getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing
floppy isn't the only copy.
12:53 a.m.
Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be "DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment -
ala terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) -
you'll need a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if
not using hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;)
On 6/23/2019 8:35 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial
(and even
USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible
DB-25 plugs on the back of the PC. I'll have to figure out how to
fiddle with the baud rates and such.
I solved the GRF file puzzle. It turns out it's a text file - a
Usenet article. And the same article is in the Google archive.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal…
There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on
the floppy file, but that may be intentional. I'll have some fiddling
to do.
Mary Ann
On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
Does the AT&T have a serial port?
Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing
with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial
port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or
earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you
can run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the
serial port?
I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't
know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.
I used a floppy recovery service a while back to
read my old
Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very
responsive.
http://retrofloppy.com/
If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a
recovery service might not be necessary. IMHO it's a question of
getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing
floppy isn't the only copy.
12:56 a.m.
Arthur's comments bring back some memories. I probably still have this,
a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and
a breadboard in the middle. I could hook anything to anything :)
That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial ports.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 08:53:19PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be
"DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment - ala
terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) - you'll
need
a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if not using
hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;)
On 6/23/2019 8:35 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial (and even
>USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible DB-25
>plugs on the back of the PC.?? I'll have to figure out how to fiddle with
>the baud rates and such.
>
>I solved the GRF file puzzle.?? It turns out it's a text file - a Usenet
>article. And the same article is in the Google archive.
>
>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal/net.news.map/lhqyD7MOFe8/v0CQFMZyGboJ
>
>
>There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on the
>floppy file, but that may be intentional.?? I'll have some fiddling to do.
>
>?????? Mary Ann
>
>On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>>On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>>>Does the AT&T have a serial port?
>>>
>>>Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing
>>>with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port
>>>might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or
>>>earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not
>>>supported)
>>>
>>>The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
>>
>>Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can
>>run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial
>>port?
>>
>>I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't
know
>>if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.
>>
>>>I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old Commodore
>>>64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive.
>>>
>>>http://retrofloppy.com/
>>
>>If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a recovery
>>service might not be necessary.?? IMHO it's a question of getting one or
>>more copies onto something else so that the existing floppy isn't the
>>only copy.
>>
>>
>>
>
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
1:12 a.m.
On 6/23/2019 8:56 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
Arthur's comments bring back some memories. I
probably still have this,
a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and
a breadboard in the middle. I could hook anything to anything :)
That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial ports.
I did a lot of work with RS232 in the 80's to the point where my friend
said I had coined a new phrase - basically sounds like
"Are-Ess-too-turdy-too" said really fast ;) (I'm from NY)
From serial lines that were slow, going to parallel interfaces for
printers, parallel SCSI, and a few other parallel interfaces, I thought
were nice, now we've gone back to SATA, SAS and PCI-E lanes that are
basically serial interfaces.
I have an RS232 breakout box I use for situations like this. Still
having to deal with DTE-DCE issues to this day with Cisco, Nortel/Avaya,
and other network, telecom or even SAN equipment. A recent Dell
Compellent SC7xxxx I installed came with a USB cable, but it's really a
USB to RS232 interface built into the controllers. SMH.
ak
1:31 a.m.
On 6/23/2019 9:12 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
On 6/23/2019 8:56 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
I'm still partial to having machines with real serial ports on 'em
although I have all the USB serial/parallel cables as well.
Still have a couple of desktops with Real RS232 ports just in case. My
old K6-2 has both the 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch floppies -- just in case.
Bill
Arthur's comments bring back some memories.
I probably still have this,
a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and
a breadboard in the middle. I could hook anything to anything :)
That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial
ports.
I did a lot of work with RS232 in the 80's to the point where my
friend said I had coined a new phrase - basically sounds like
"Are-Ess-too-turdy-too" said really fast ;) (I'm from NY)
From serial lines that were slow, going to parallel interfaces for
printers, parallel SCSI, and a few other parallel interfaces, I
thought were nice, now we've gone back to SATA, SAS and PCI-E lanes
that are basically serial interfaces.
I have an RS232 breakout box I use for situations like this. Still
having to deal with DTE-DCE issues to this day with Cisco,
Nortel/Avaya, and other network, telecom or even SAN equipment. A
recent Dell Compellent SC7xxxx I installed came with a USB cable, but
it's really a USB to RS232 interface built into the controllers. SMH.
ak
1:51 a.m.
On 6/23/2019 9:31 PM, William Pechter wrote:
I'm still partial to having machines with real
serial ports on 'em
although I have all the USB serial/parallel cables as well.
Still have a couple of desktops with Real RS232 ports just in case.
My old K6-2 has both the 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch floppies -- just in case.
Oh, so do I - one notable thing recently, a few Dell T7910 workstations
(huge mothers, dual Xeons, plumbed x16 PCI-E interfaces to the second
CPU, etc) actually had a male DB9 on the back.
I was somewhat impressed.
ak
1:40 a.m.
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 20:53:19 -0400 Arthur Krewat <krewat(a)kilonet.net> wrote:
Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be
"DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment -
ala terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) -
you'll need a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if
not using hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;)
Since mid 80s I have used Dave Yost's wiring scheme that
converts a DB-25 or DB-9 adapter to an RJ-45 socket:
http://yost.com/computers/RJ45-serial/
You wire any DB-25 or DB-9 DCE or DTE male or female adapter
so that the RJ-45 socket has the above pinout. You figure
out which device needs what kind of adapter and permanently
attach the adapter. Now you can use a standard "half-twist"
phone cable with 4, 6 or 8 wires and connect anything to
anything.
My last device with a real RS-232 interface (a CP-290 X10
controller) where I used this died 4-5 years ago. I still use
serial ports on RaspberryPis but talk to them via serial<->USB
adapters (these are 3.3V uarts).
3:20 a.m.
On 6/23/19 7:40 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:
Since mid 80s I have used Dave Yost's wiring
scheme that converts a
DB-25 or DB-9 adapter to an RJ-45 socket:
http://yost.com/computers/RJ45-serial/
You wire any DB-25 or DB-9 DCE or DTE male or female adapter so
that the RJ-45 socket has the above pinout. You figure out which
device needs what kind of adapter and permanently attach the adapter.
Now you can use a standard "half-twist" phone cable with 4, 6 or 8
wires and connect anything to anything.
+10 for Yost wiring scheme.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
12:50 a.m.
Another thing to think about, and that's only because I'm a
dumpster-diver, is what's in the unallocated sectors? ;)
On 6/23/2019 8:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
Of course, but in some cases, a few $'s thrown at the problem is easier
than messing around with something you don't want to mess around with ;)
I would be happy to contribute.
On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
Not that I'm aware of. Things like NULs, and ^S can really ruin your
day. Not to mention ^Z which a DOS copy might interpret as EOF. I only
ever wrote programs to access the UART directly, but I remember my
attempts at COPY or other DOS-specific ways of dealing with serial ports
were never very successful. But that might have had more to do with
buffer overruns (or in the case of the 8250 in the XT, a lack of a FIFO
ala-16550 in the first place). Redirecting LPT1 to COM1 using MODE, I
used to print to an LA100 using hardware handshaking.
Does the AT&T have a serial port?
Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing
with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial
port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or
earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can
run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial
port? I used a
floppy recovery service a while back to read my old
Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very
responsive.
http://retrofloppy.com/
If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a
recovery service might not be necessary. IMHO it's a question of
getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing
floppy isn't the only copy. 
9:07 p.m.
On 23 Jun 2019 18:02 -0600, from tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via TUHS):
I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK &
INTERSVR. I don't know if
they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.
The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network redirector was added in
3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if
that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0
versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support
may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were
introduced depending on which exact features are used.
Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1 user's manual and user's
reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in
the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than
that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were
introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4]
simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant.
So, almost certainly not that easy, unfortunately.
[1] http://www.os2museum.com/wp/dos/dos-3-0-3-2/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DOS_commands#INTERSVR_and_INTERLNK
[3] http://www.easydos.com/interlink.html
[4] http://www.easydos.com/intersvr.html
--
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael(a)kjorling.se
“The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)
9:30 p.m.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019, Michael Kjörling wrote:
The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network
redirector was added in
3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if
that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0
versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support
may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were
introduced depending on which exact features are used.
A prototype was introduced in 3.0; it wasn't exactly usable until 3.1
iirc.
Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1 user's
manual and user's
reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in
the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than
that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were
introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4]
simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant.
I can confirm the presence of Interlnk in PC DOS 5.02 as well as MS-DOS
6.00 (and this is why I specifically mentioned those versions). I've done
a lot of research on MS-DOS/PC DOS history. ;p
Interlnk does have a way, as I mentioned, to copy itself over a serial
cable. I suppose it probably relies on CTTY and DEBUG or something.
-uso.
9:59 p.m.
Hello!
And I can confirm that it does work on DOS 3.30. I wasn't aware that
it had that sort of history, but such are things. I've used it to send
things from a small portable to a laptop the laptop ran DOS 6.22, and
the portable was running 3.30
Mary Anne you own an AT&T PC 6300? Wow, I got my start along the
regular desktop market with one. And their 80286 version as well.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 5:31 PM Steve Nickolas <usotsuki(a)buric.co> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019, Michael Kjörling wrote:
The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network
redirector was added in
3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if
that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0
versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support
may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were
introduced depending on which exact features are used.
A prototype was introduced in 3.0; it wasn't exactly usable until 3.1
iirc.
Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1
user's manual and user's
reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in
the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than
that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were
introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4]
simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant.
I can confirm the presence of Interlnk in PC DOS 5.02 as well as MS-DOS
6.00 (and this is why I specifically mentioned those versions). I've done
a lot of research on MS-DOS/PC DOS history. ;p
Interlnk does have a way, as I mentioned, to copy itself over a serial
cable. I suppose it probably relies on CTTY and DEBUG or something.
-uso.
23 Jun
23 Jun
11:57 p.m.
On 6/23/19 5:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran
across a 5.25"
floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have
historical interest.
Intriguing.
First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on
the disk. It's not mine.
Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The
floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are
ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII
Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to
be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or
what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based
Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
Hum.
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity.
They read on DOS just
fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would
have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS
2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything
live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.
I wonder if you could get away with something as simple as a null modem
cable and the following commands:
Source:
copy a:\file COM1
Destination:
copy COM1 c:\file
Does the source machine have a hard drive?
Do you have a blank (sacrificial) floppy disk?
Can you copy the files anywhere so that they are in more than one place?
Do you have a printer that you could create a (hexadecimal) printout?
Do you have a machine that can accept a USB-to-Serial adapter?
What about something like a Raspberry Pi? It has a serial port (though
it needs a level shifter).
I took some photos of the screen with the earliest
maps (the ones that
fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for
the early ASCII ones.
I'd be interested in seeing them. Do you have a place that you can
upload them to?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
24 Jun
24 Jun
12:40 a.m.
I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone) here:
http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/
Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I
have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2
years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81.
Mary Ann
On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
I took some photos of the screen with the
earliest maps (the ones
that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at
least for the early ASCII ones.
I'd be interested in seeing them. Do you have a place that you can
upload them to?
1:37 a.m.
On 6/23/2019 8:40 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone)
here:
http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/
Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I
have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2
years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81.
Mary Ann
On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>
>> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones
>> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at
>> least for the early ASCII ones.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing them. Do you have a place that you can
> upload them to?
>
>
>
I checked my maps and have a version from 1996 and 2000...
Ah for the days of being one hop from the house to !pyramid and the rest
of the world.
Bill
3:17 a.m.
I found the posting reference here:
http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/010180.MAP.jpg
https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/usenet/news005f1/b12/net.general/1501…
http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/032183.BBM.jpg
https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/usenet/news004f1/b11/net.news/541.txt
http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/040581.MAP.jpg
The map is mentioned in here:
http://www.ais.org/~ronda/new.papers/articles/earlyversion.arpanet.txt
As far as BBM files I just find this:
Name: Graphics Display System (GDS)
Purpose: Image display, conversion, thumbnail catalogs
Version: 3.1e
Author: Photodex Corporation <photodex(a)netcom.com>
FTP: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ph/photodex
CIS: GO PHOTODEX, GDS Viewing Software (Lib 3)
Imports: ANS (ANSI text), BBM, BMF, BMP, CUT/PAL (Dr. Halo), DIB, DL,
FLC, FLI, FLX, GDS, GIF, GL, HAM, ICO, IFF/ILBM, IMG, JFI,
JPG (JFIF), LBM, MAC, MP2 & MPA (MPEG Audio), MPG, PCC,
PCX, RAX, RFX, RLE, SC? (ColoRIX), TGA, TIFF and TXT (text).
Exports: ANS (ANSI text), BBM, BMP, CUT/PAL (Dr. Halo), GDS, GIF,
IFF/ILBM, IMG, JFI, JPG (JFIF), LBM, PCC, PCX, RAX, RFX,
RLE, SC? (ColoRIX), TGA, and TIFF.
Features: File viewing, batch conversions, easy thumbnail catalog
creation with many options, slide shows, automatic
configuration. Includes 5000+ lines of hypertext help
and prints 98 page cross referenced manual. Supports HGC,
CGA, EGA, S-EGA, VGA, SVGA, XGA, TIGA and VESA. Registered
versions print to HP PCL & 100% compatible laser and inkjet
printers.
Comments: Used by CompuServe sysops to catalog over 40,000 images
regularly. ASP approved shareware.
No idea if it survives at all.
If you can screen shot the headers of the posts it’s easier to find them in old usenet
archives. The UTZOO stuff is an AMAZING resource. It’s been incredibly valuable looking
for old stuff. Of course the real fun is in searching it.
Feel free to wget the BZ2 files from:
https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/
Just don’t spider into the /usenet directory as it’s all the files extracted and you’ll no
doubt be pulling several million files… much easier to get the .tar.bz2 ‘s.
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 8:40 AM
To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone) here:
http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/
Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I
have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2
years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81.
Mary Ann
On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
I took some photos of the screen with the
earliest maps (the ones
that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at
least for the early ASCII ones.
I'd be interested in seeing them. Do you have a place that you can
upload them to?
1:57 a.m.
There's always the option of Interlnk if one has PC DOS 5.02 or later, or
MS-DOS 6. I think it has a way to send itself over serial to a machine
with DOS 3.3 or later and I want to say the 6300 came with 3.3.
2:09 a.m.
The 6300 came with 2.11 and there was an upgrade to 3.2.3 IIRC.
Bill
Sent from MailDroid
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nickolas <usotsuki(a)buric.co>
To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 22:06
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
There's always the option of Interlnk if one has PC DOS 5.02 or later, or
MS-DOS 6. I think it has a way to send itself over serial to a machine
with DOS 3.3 or later and I want to say the 6300 came with 3.3.
12:03 a.m.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 04:10:22PM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity.
They read on DOS just fine.
Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would have guessed
I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 2.11 (not much
serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything live with a serial
port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.
Maybe this?
http://www.deviceside.com/fc5025.html
- Ted
12:19 a.m.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, at 4:11 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity.
They read on DOS just
fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would
have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS
2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything
live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.
If you can't find a more expedient way, I'd be happy to help read off the files
if you're willing to part with the disk for a few days. I have experience reading
many old diskette formats, and a PC dedicated to the task running DOS 6.22 and Windows for
Workgroups 3.11.
I definitely agree it would be good to save these files for posterity.
Thanks,
Mary Ann
-Seth
--
Seth Morabito
Poulsbo, WA
web(a)loomcom.com
12:33 a.m.
I'd look around for an external floppy drive, plug it into a modern machine,
download knoppix, boot that and it will read the disk.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 04:10:22PM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran
across a 5.25" floppy
drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have historical interest.
First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not mine.
Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The
floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are ASCII
Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII Usenet
backbone maps up to 1987.
There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to be a
graphical Usenet map.?? Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or what this
map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based Usenet geographic
map in 84 or 85.
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just fine.
Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would have guessed
I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 2.11 (not much
serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything live with a serial
port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.
I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that fit
on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for the early
ASCII ones.
Thanks,
?????? Mary Ann
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
25 Jun
25 Jun
3:54 a.m.
I'd use something like imagedisk or teledisk or anadisk for reading the
diskette; this will also preserve the deleted/unused sectors, the boot
sector and the disk filesystem/metadata, while just copying the files
off will lose most of this data.
On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran
across a 5.25"
floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have
historical interest.
First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not
mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up.
The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which
are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are
ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to
be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or
what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based
Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just
fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would
have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS
2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have
anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with
the GRF file.
I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that
fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for
the early ASCII ones.
Thanks,
Mary Ann
--
Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
jgevaryahu(a)gmail.com
jgevaryahu(a)hotmail.com
11:21 a.m.
Kermit used to exist for a great many systems, including DOS. A Pi might get that
installed via apt-get, or compiled from scratch (might have to do that soon for some other
project). As far as connectivity goes, places like Frys sell USB-RS232 Adapters and
null-modem cables, means one can avoid messing with the Pi’s IO bits.
Alternatively you could try uucp, but that requires more configuration.
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 24.06.2019 um 22:54 schrieb Jonathan Gevaryahu
<jgevaryahu(a)hotmail.com>om>:
I'd use something like imagedisk or teledisk or anadisk for reading the
diskette; this will also preserve the deleted/unused sectors, the boot
sector and the disk filesystem/metadata, while just copying the files
off will lose most of this data.
On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail
wrote:
Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25"
floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have
historical interest.
First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not
mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up.
The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which
are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are
ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to
be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or
what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based
Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just
fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would
have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS
2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have
anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with
the GRF file.
I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that
fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for
the early ASCII ones.
Thanks,
Mary Ann
--
Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
jgevaryahu(a)gmail.com
jgevaryahu(a)hotmail.com
9 Jul
9 Jul
4:28 p.m.
I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for
the great suggestions!
I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial
tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even
dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files
(although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first
file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each
file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the
files.
I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/
I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week.
Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
thing described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Mary Ann
On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran
across a 5.25"
floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have
historical interest.
First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not
mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up.
The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which
are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are
ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to
be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or
what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based
Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just
fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would
have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS
2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have
anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with
the GRF file.
I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that
fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for
the early ASCII ones.
Thanks,
Mary Ann
4:53 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:28:04AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy.
Thanks to everyone for the
great suggestions!
I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial
tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even dug
out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files (although
the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first file got copied).
I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each file to be copied
over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the files.
I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/
I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week.
Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" thing
described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Hi,
if nobody has a "leroy" at hand, I could give it a go using a slightly
more modern graph drawing stuff (starting from the same files). Just
shout.
HND
Enzo Nicosia
--
[ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ]
[ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ]
[ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ]
[ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ]
5:12 p.m.
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah(a)mhorton.net> wrote:
Does anyone have anything put together that can easily
do the "leroy"
thing described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Mary Ann
I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files
through it. It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to
plot(1G). That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything
useful with it. I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got
garbage. I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else
can easily produce readable output from this file.
-Henry
5:25 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail
<mah(a)mhorton.net> wrote:
I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen minutes of
searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it
with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.
-Seth
--
Seth Morabito
Poulsbo, WA
web(a)loomcom.com
Does anyone have anything put together that can
easily do the "leroy"
thing described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Mary Ann
I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files through it.
5:34 p.m.
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web(a)loomcom.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
files through
it.
I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen
minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't
mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.
It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz
It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from
the docs:
--
The plot stream leroy emits is intended for, and must
be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter. These filters
recognize a number of commands not included in the vanilla
seventh edition filters, mostly dealing with the Hershey
fonts. The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
their predecessors and have been implemented in a fashion
which makes tailoring new devices filters very straightfor-
ward. The source code is available on request. Filters
currently exist for the Tektronix 4014, the Versatec, the
HP7221A, and the Qume.
--
-Henry
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton
Gmail <mah(a)mhorton.net>
wrote:
Does
anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
thing described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Mary Ann
I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached
7:19 p.m.
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito
<web(a)loomcom.com> wrote:
I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to
running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that
UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 output
which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here are links to the
raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for this sort of
display.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=…
-Henry
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent
wrote:
files through
it.
I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen
minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't
mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.
It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz
It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from
the docs:
--
The plot stream leroy emits is intended for, and must
be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter. These filters
recognize a number of commands not included in the vanilla
seventh edition filters, mostly dealing with the Hershey
fonts. The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
their predecessors and have been implemented in a fashion
which makes tailoring new devices filters very straightfor-
ward. The source code is available on request. Filters
currently exist for the Tektronix 4014, the Versatec, the
HP7221A, and the Qume.
--
-Henry
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton
Gmail <mah(a)mhorton.net>
wrote:
Does
anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
thing described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Mary Ann
I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached 
7:41 p.m.
I remember doing something similar for the "NNTP backbone," with the help
of Brian Reid and his mapmaking postscript tools. I don't have any or data.
8:09 p.m.
On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so
I switched to
running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that
UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014
output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here are
links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for
this sort of display.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=…
Impressive.
Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used?
I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and
learn along the way.
Please and thank you.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
8:58 p.m.
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 16:10, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:
On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=…
Impressive.
Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used?
I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and
learn along the way.
Please and thank you.
My apologies, I am sometimes not as careful with documentation as I should
be. I'm not up for transcribing every last command, but I can walk you
through the basic idea. This assumes that you have extracted the necessary
files from http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt , which you
have to do by hand because this is before shar.
This was all done in SIMH, using a simulated PDP-11/70 running Ultrix 3.1,
but I believe that what I did would work just as well on 2.xBSD. The 1981
Usenix tape (
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz )
was attached to a virtual TK-50 drive (SIMH can now attach .tar files
directly, with no conversion!) and extracted. The "ucol" directory
contains the sources for leroy. The first step is to rebuild the plot
library in leroy/plotsrc. Remove plib and *.o and run make, then back to
the leroy directory, clean and make. The makefile installs /bin/leroy for
you after building. Run "/bin/leroy < map.leroy" and it gives you
leroy.out, which is in the special extended plot format that UCol
developed. You need to convert this to Tek 4014, and there is a program
for doing that in ucol/plot. But first you have to build the modified
libt4014, which is in ucol/libplot. "make lilbt4014.a" will get you what
you need there. Back to ucol/plot, edit the makefile to use your newly
built libt4014 instead of the system's, clean out everything there and
build tek. But wait! You still need the Hershey fonts in the right place,
so move the contents of ucol/vroff to be /usr/src/cmd/vroff (or you could
modify the source to put it wherever you want, I guess). Then finally you
can pipe leroy.out through tek to get a 4014 file, which will be readable
by a modern tek2plot.
-Henry
I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a
VAX, so I switched to
running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that
UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014
output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here are
links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for
this sort of display.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=…
8:54 p.m.
Thank you, Henry!
I was able to download the SVG and render it (mostly) legible for the
map packet for the event tomorrow.
Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt
Thanks!
Mary Ann
On 7/9/19 12:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com
<mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web(a)loomcom.com
<mailto:web@loomcom.com>> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
attached files
through it.
I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did
about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to
find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd
enjoy playing with it.
It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz
It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of
plot; from the docs:
--
The plot stream leroy emits is intended for, and must
be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter. These filters
recognize a number of commands not included in the vanilla
seventh edition filters, mostly dealing with the Hershey
fonts. The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
their predecessors and have been implemented in a fashion
which makes tailoring new devices filters very straightfor-
ward. The source code is available on request. Filters
currently exist for the Tektronix 4014, the Versatec, the
HP7221A, and the Qume.
--
-Henry
I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to
running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries
that UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix
4014 output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here
are links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most
useful for this sort of display.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=…
-Henry
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton
Gmail
<mah(a)mhorton.net <mailto:mah@mhorton.net>> wrote:
> Does anyone have anything put together that
can easily do
the "leroy"
thing
described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Mary Ann
I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the
9:30 p.m.
On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Any chance you could do the same for this file? It
looks smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt
I don't think that file is all of what's needed.
I looked at it and saw the following:
…Also this
news submission is broken
into two articles, with the graph(1G) compatible stuff separated from that
which is specific to leroy.
The files and descriptions of their contents are as follows:
First article:
--- This message
map.leroy command file for leroy to plot map
gmap.leroy command file for leroy to plot map with gnodes file
nodes leroy commands to draw circles at site locations
gnodes leroy commands to draw graphic characters at site
locations
sites leroy commands for labeling nodes with site names
Second article:
usa.outline USA outline (graph(1G) format)
usa.states USA state boundaries (graph(1G) format)
net news connections between sites (graph(1G) format)
As such, I think the usa.outline, usa.states, and net are missing. :-(
I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
9:35 p.m.
On 7/9/19 3:30 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in
Usenet archives.
There's no time like the present.
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR…
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
9:37 p.m.
On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Any chance you could do the same for this file? It
looks smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
articles:
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEP…
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR…
The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
9:46 p.m.
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:
On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow
in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
output.
-Henry
Any chance you could do the same for this file?
It looks smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
articles:
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEP…
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR…
The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
10:02 p.m.
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:
OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form.
The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script,
seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=…
I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered as
they are. The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though, is
that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to.
-Henry
On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow
in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
output.
-Henry
Any chance you could do the same for this file?
It looks smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
articles:
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEP…
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR…
The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
11:23 p.m.
Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.
I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the
date in the map is September. Would you please rerun that one? :)
The extra icons in the legend are nice!
Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian
Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I
had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find
it. Now I know where he got his data...
Thanks,
Mary Ann
On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com
<mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Any chance you could do the same for this file?
It looks
smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's
possible it's somehow better.
While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the
following
articles:
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEP…
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR…
The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away.
Somehow in going back over what I used to build a working setup I
managed to break my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to
get the next set of files output.
-Henry
OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG
form. The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the
gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=…
I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally,
cluttered as they are. The nice thing about them being in a vector
format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster size if you
wanted to.
-Henry 
10 Jul
10 Jul
12:06 a.m.
Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, are
you in Renton right now?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah(a)mhorton.net>
wrote:
Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.
I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the date
in the map is September. Would you please rerun that one? :)
The extra icons in the legend are nice!
Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian Reid
doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I had
such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find it. Now I
know where he got his data...
Thanks,
Mary Ann
On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via
TUHS <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:
OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form.
The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script,
seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=…
I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered
as they are. The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though,
is that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to.
-Henry
On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow
in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
output.
-Henry
Any chance you could do the same for this file?
It looks smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
articles:
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEP…
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR…
The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
12:38 a.m.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:
On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an
executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it.
- Dan C.
Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a
modern(ish) system.
Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means. OS &
version,
architecture, etc.
12:49 a.m.
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:38:05PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:
Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it
worked. It's cool when it does though, reminds me of bringing up X11
back in the day.
On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an
executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it. Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a
modern(ish) system.
Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means. OS &
version,
architecture, etc.
12:57 a.m.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:49 PM Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it
isn't surprising that it
worked.
I'd modify that to say, that old programs often ask less of *the system* -
although they tend to have assumptions about the environment (like the
target processor) embedded/implied in the code. I think the single
enhancement to C was adding strong typing and explicit typing in the
function calls. By adding those two things to old code, I have brought
them forward.
Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the preprocessor
be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition without real
hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got pseudo C to compile
back on V0.
It's cool when it does though,
Indeed - very cool.
1:26 a.m.
New subject: V0 B Compiler
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful
use of the
preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition
without real hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got
pseudo C to compile back on V0.
Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0
system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back.
Cheers, Warren
1:29 a.m.
New subject: V0 B Compiler
Thanks Robert, sorry for the error ;-)
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:27 PM Warren Toomey <wkt(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole
wrote:
Similarly, I have taken modern code and my
careful use of the
preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition
without real hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got
pseudo C to compile back on V0.
Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0
system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back.
Cheers, Warren
1:32 a.m.
New subject: Plot 10 Sources
Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of
the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and
found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
2:51 a.m.
New subject: Plot 10 Sources
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does
anyone know if any version of
the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and
found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7
-- Charles
3 a.m.
New subject: Plot 10 Sources
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:51 PM Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
I found it at bitsavers:
http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/
-- Charles
Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does
anyone know if any version
of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and
found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7
3:01 a.m.
New subject: Plot 10 Sources
Cool many thanks.
FYI: it's a great start. It just the Terminal Control System part, there
was about 5 or 6 subsystems, IIRC. That's a fairly early version (1974)
also, since its Fortran-IV. Later versions in the late 70's/early 80s
were in MORTRAN, BTW. I remember an internal argument of the folks in the
terminal group about if Plot 10's GKS system should be done in C - but
FORTRAN still rules the day so, MORTRAN was the compromise.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 10:51 PM Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does
anyone know if any version
of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and
found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7
-- Charles
12:51 p.m.
New subject: Plot 10 Sources
Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400:
> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix
Plot 10 sources has survived?
In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later
science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find
these files:
% ls -log
total 3768
-rw-rw-r-- 1 145899 May 16 1985 agii.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 245190 May 16 1985 ezgr27.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16 1985 igl.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 289730 May 16 1985 p4663.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 129276 May 16 1985 p4663.ver
-rw-rw-r-- 1 149038 May 16 1985 ploter.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 210033 May 16 1985 plt10.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 470 May 16 1985 plt10t.for
% wc -l *
1815 agii.for
7251 ezgr27.for
26011 igl.for
3577 p4663.for
1596 p4663.ver
1845 ploter.for
2763 plt10.for
27 plt10t.for
44885 total
% head -16 agii.for
C***********************************************************************00000010
C* *00000020
C* 4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II *00000030
C* LEVEL 1 *00000040
C* *00000050
C* 062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH *00000060
C* 062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING *00000070
C* *00000080
C* C COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000090
C* ALL RIGHTS RESERVED *00000100
C* *00000110
C* TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000120
C* P. O. BOX 500 *00000130
C* BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077 *00000140
C* *00000150
C***********************************************************************00000160
The Bitsavers code at
http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn
has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer.
The question is, what is the copyright status of this code? Has
Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing
it to the public?
I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10
code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe(a)math.utah.edu -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe(a)acm.org beebe(a)computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Plot 10 Sources
Nelson. Good question. The status is unknown last I knew. I’ve personally lost track of
anyone at Tek that might have able to help.
Also your version seems to be pure FORTRAN-IV not the mortran sources. Part of my
question is I’m not sure if they shipped the pre or post processed version. Somebody like
Ed Post (of the old “Real Programmers don’t write Pascal, they use FORTRAN”) might
remember.
Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite.
On Jul 10, 2019, at 5:51 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe
<beebe(a)math.utah.edu> wrote:
Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400:
> does anyone know if any version of the
Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?
In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later
science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find
these files:
% ls -log
total 3768
-rw-rw-r-- 1 145899 May 16 1985 agii.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 245190 May 16 1985 ezgr27.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16 1985 igl.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 289730 May 16 1985 p4663.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 129276 May 16 1985 p4663.ver
-rw-rw-r-- 1 149038 May 16 1985 ploter.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 210033 May 16 1985 plt10.for
-rw-rw-r-- 1 470 May 16 1985 plt10t.for
% wc -l *
1815 agii.for
7251 ezgr27.for
26011 igl.for
3577 p4663.for
1596 p4663.ver
1845 ploter.for
2763 plt10.for
27 plt10t.for
44885 total
% head -16 agii.for
C***********************************************************************00000010
C* *00000020
C* 4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II *00000030
C* LEVEL 1 *00000040
C* *00000050
C* 062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH *00000060
C* 062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING *00000070
C* *00000080
C* C COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000090
C* ALL RIGHTS RESERVED *00000100
C* *00000110
C* TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000120
C* P. O. BOX 500 *00000130
C* BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077 *00000140
C* *00000150
C***********************************************************************00000160
The Bitsavers code at
http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn
has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer.
The question is, what is the copyright status of this code? Has
Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing
it to the public?
I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10
code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe(a)math.utah.edu -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe(a)acm.org beebe(a)computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1:19 a.m.
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:02:50PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
Indeed. Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was,
um, interesting. It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code
that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me
later in life. Things don't have to be perfect, a working window
system that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than
nothing by a long shot.
reminds me of bringing up X11
back in the day.
Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee.... 
1:34 a.m.
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:
Indeed. Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about
graphics drivers was,
um, interesting. It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code
that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me
later in life. Things don't have to be perfect, a working window system
that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than nothing by a
long shot.
Back in the 80s, our idiot of a manager just dumped an Xterm on us,
expecting us to get it to work ASAP for a demo..
Oh the fun we had, seeing as our knowledge of "X" at the time was confined
to knowing how to spell it... I even told him that, and he wasn't amused
:-)
-- Dave
12:28 a.m.
Hi, Dan,
My plane gets into SeaTac at 11 AM Wed. I'm still at home and can still
print these tonight.
Thanks,
Mary Ann
On 7/9/19 5:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish)
system. Mary Ann,
are you in Renton right now?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah(a)mhorton.net
<mailto:mah@mhorton.net>> wrote:
Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.
I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that
the date in the map is September. Would you please rerun that one? :)
The extra icons in the legend are nice!
Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall
Brian Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at
one Usenix. I had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week
but I can't find it. Now I know where he got his data...
Thanks,
Mary Ann
On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com
<mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Any chance you could do the same for this file?
It
looks smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's
possible it's somehow
better.
While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found
the following
articles:
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEP…
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR…
The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working
away. Somehow in going back over what I used to build a
working setup I managed to break my working setup, so I'm
trying to fix that to get the next set of files output.
-Henry
OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and
SVG form. The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with
the gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few
graphical icons.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=…
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=…
I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally,
cluttered as they are. The nice thing about them being in a
vector format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster
size if you wanted to.
-Henry
9 Jul
9 Jul
10:01 p.m.
Thank you, Grant!
I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps. I will
add images from Henry as well.
Mary Ann
On 7/9/19 2:37 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Any chance you could do the same for this file?
It looks smaller, but
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
articles:
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEP…
Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
-
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR…
The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
10:44 p.m.
On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Thank you, Grant!
You're welcome.
I have added these to the archive on
stargatemuseum.org/maps. I will
add images from Henry as well.
I'm doing some digging on this. I'm curious to learn how the data gets
used. My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data from
the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if it's
possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from. }:-)
I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help with
this. :-D
I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at. Maybe it
will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it
to pseudo #L lines that can be used. }:-)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
11:14 p.m.
Well, my intent is to print a packet of Usenet maps to hand out at
Wednesday night's 50th UNIX Anniversary event in Seattle. I have 15
copies and a link to the PDF file on stargatemuseum.org. If possible,
I'd like to add 1 or 2 or 3 of these graphical maps to the packet.
It would also be helpful to have an archived copy of the full UUCP map.
Stan Barber sent me one some time ago but I misplaced it, and it's not
coming to his fingertips either. That would obviously be a project for
later, not a paper handout, but to save on the museum web site.
However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet
map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :)
Thanks,
Mary Ann
On 7/9/19 3:44 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Thank you, Grant!
You're welcome.
I have added these to the archive on
stargatemuseum.org/maps. I will
add images from Henry as well.
I'm doing some digging on this. I'm curious to learn how the data
gets used. My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data
from the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if
it's possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from. }:-)
I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help
with this. :-D
I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at. Maybe it
will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it
to pseudo #L lines that can be used. }:-)
10 Jul
10 Jul
12:24 a.m.
On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map,
or even a Usenet
map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :)
Why do you say that?
Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the map
data that I'm looking at from '98.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
1:13 a.m.
On 7/9/19 5:24 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
Well, there are 320 node names in the 3/83 graphic, and it's already
bordering on illegible. 7 times as many, especially with the
concentrations in NJ, Chicago, Boston, etc, it would have to be pretty
creative. The Shannon map of 7/84 had over 900 hosts (just on Usenet,
not including UUCP only) and they divided it into 9 sections. I suspect
there were a lot more than 2100 UUCP hosts at its peak.
I haven't had much luck doing searches on Google Groups - it often just
gives me the first page and refuses to sort by date. Is there a good way
to mine all the postings to a particular newsgroup, or all of them in a
particular year?
Mary Ann
However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP
map, or even a
Usenet map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece
of paper :)
Why do you say that?
Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the
map data that I'm looking at from '98.
9 Jul
9 Jul
5:33 p.m.
Henry - what did you try for your parameters to plot? and did you try: plot
-T png which should create a more modern png file.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail
<mah(a)mhorton.net>
wrote:
Does anyone have anything put together that can
easily do the "leroy"
thing described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Mary Ann
I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files
through it. It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to
plot(1G). That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything
useful with it. I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got
garbage. I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else
can easily produce readable output from this file.
-Henry
15 Jul
15 Jul
3:21 a.m.
New subject: Historical Usenet maps
Thanks to everyone who came to the celebration in Seattle!
If you missed it and want your own copy of historical (old) Usenet maps,
you can download it now.
I have updated the PDF online to include everything that was in the
display copy. The full copy is at http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ .
ThisPDF is intended to be printed, because most of the pages are in
landscape.
Mary Ann
On 7/9/19 9:28 AM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy.
Thanks to everyone
for the great suggestions!
I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual
serial tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem).
I even dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing
BAT files (although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after
the first file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script
separately for each file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's
scrolling history to save the files.
I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/
I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this
week.
Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
thing described here:
http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
and produce the graphical map it contains?
Mary Ann
On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25"
> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have
> historical interest.
>
> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not
> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
>
> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up.
> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which
> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which
> are ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
>
> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims
> to be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is
> or what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based
> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
>
> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just
> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would
> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS
> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have
> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with
> the GRF file.
>
> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones
> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at
> least for the early ASCII ones.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mary Ann
>
>
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25 participants
participants (25)
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Arthur Krewat -
Bakul Shah -
Charles Anthony -
ckeck＠texoma.net -
Clem Cole -
Clem cole
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Dan Cross -
Dave Horsfall -
Grant Taylor -
Gregg Levine -
Henry Bent -
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Larry McVoy -
Mary Ann Horton Gmail -
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Theodore Ts'o -
Warren Toomey -
William Pechter