31 Aug
2017
31 Aug
'17
5:49 p.m.
If Unix was written in Pascal I would've happily
continued using Pascal!
Amusing in the context of Brian's piece, which essentially says if Unix
could have been written in Pascal, then Pascal wouldn't have been Pascal.
doug\
31 Aug
31 Aug
11:36 p.m.
New subject: Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language Unearthed!
On Aug 31, 2017, at 10:49 AM, Doug McIlroy
<doug(a)cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
My point being that perhaps the success of Unix had more to do
with the success of C than anything else. And I believe Unix
success had more to with the set of s/w tools it came with
than C.
For most user programs either language would be been fine.
Given its evoltion C had the necessary features to implement
an OS kernel but I believe Pascal could've been easily (&
minimally) extended to something equivalent. Note that Per
Brinch Hansen & his students did write an OS (Solo) in
Concurrent Pascal[1].
Also note that C itself went through a few iterations while
Pascal was basically the same language that prof. Wirth
defined until 1985.
--bakul
[1] Solo was a university project + it lacked the greatest
strength of Unix (a set of s/w tools). So it stayed a uni
project. Concurrent Pascal was a significant extension over
sequential Pascal but PBH explained his rationale by way of
his excellent book on Operating System Design!
If Unix was written in Pascal I would've
happily continued using Pascal!
Amusing in the context of Brian's piece, which essentially says if Unix
could have been written in Pascal, then Pascal wouldn't have been Pascal.
doug\ 
1 Sep
1 Sep
12:19 a.m.
New subject: Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language Unearthed!
No, such a Pascal would've been more of an Ada if developed like C++; more of an
Oberon or Modula-2
if minimalist.
I (officially) learned programming with Turbo Pascal. However, I'd already read both
Comer's and
Tanenbaum's books on operating system design and implementation, and likewise Brinch
Hansen's
book on Solo and Concurrent Pascal.
It didn't take long to work out that you could put together larger projects even with
Turbo C than you
could with Turbo Pascal, and the Turbo Pascal efforts towards handling large projects were
a fudge.
I liked Oberon - I think Wirth came closer to the minimalism of C with Oberon.
Wesley Parish
Quoting Doug McIlroy <doug(a)cs.dartmouth.edu>du>:
"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
Goldwyn
If Unix was
written in Pascal I would've happily continued using
Pascal!
Amusing in the context of Brian's piece, which essentially says if Unix
could have been written in Pascal, then Pascal wouldn't have been
Pascal.
doug\
12:47 a.m.
New subject: Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language Unearthed!
I liked Oberon - I think Wirth came closer to the
minimalism of C with Oberon.
I went and looked it up and left when I say BEGIN END. Really?
IF (expr)
BEGIN
blah
blah
blah
END
I'm sorry but I'm with whoever it was that said { } are better than
BEGIN END. Seems trivial but it's not to me.
2:45 a.m.
New subject: Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language Unearthed!
On 2017-08-31 17:47, Larry McVoy wrote:
IF (expr)
BEGIN
blah
blah
blah
END
I'm sorry but I'm with whoever it was that said { } are better than
BEGIN END. Seems trivial but it's not to me.
IMO, that's taking 1 part of a large coherent whole and judging by that.
I am terrible with metaphors and similes, but maybe a bit like saying "I
don't like the GPL because it restricts what I can do with my code."
Here's another construct from C:
for (i = n; i > 0; --i) {
blah();
}
In a language like Pascal (really Algol), that is
FOR i = n TO 0 DO
Blah()
DONE
That's much closer typing-wise, isn't it? That's because of the melding
of the brackets with the control structure keywords. But you can't do
that _and_ have braces.
--
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
Do obvious transformation on domain to reply privately _only_ on Usenet.
3:53 a.m.
New subject: Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language Unearthed!
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz(a)very.loosely.org> wrote:
On 2017-08-31 17:47, Larry McVoy wrote:
Today I might agree with you because of the fancy IDEs coupled with the
huge screen size makes this a little easier to read.
When I learned, screen space was at a premium (24x80) so I had to make
every line count and pack in as much as I could. And any short cut to
typing also helped me write things faster, so I gravitated to C as soon as
it was available at an affordable price... It also was easier to do via
dialup at 1200 or 2400 baud.
But then again, I still write in 'C' because I find it easiest to grok
after 35 years of use... I'm also teaching python to my son and haven't
introduced C and compilers and makefiles. python just runs and the
indenting thing, though it offends my aesthetic, isn't a big deal with a
decent editor.
Warner
IF (expr)
BEGIN
blah
blah
blah
END
I'm sorry but I'm with whoever it was that said { } are better than
BEGIN END. Seems trivial but it's not to me.
IMO, that's taking 1 part of a large coherent whole and judging by that.
I am terrible with metaphors and similes, but maybe a bit like saying "I
don't like the GPL because it restricts what I can do with my code."
Here's another construct from C:
for (i = n; i > 0; --i) {
blah();
}
In a language like Pascal (really Algol), that is
FOR i = n TO 0 DO
Blah()
DONE
That's much closer typing-wise, isn't it? That's because of the melding
of the brackets with the control structure keywords. But you can't do
that _and_ have braces.
3:56 a.m.
New subject: Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language Unearthed!
+1
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 09:53:15PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Ian Zimmerman
<itz(a)very.loosely.org> wrote:
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
On 2017-08-31 17:47, Larry McVoy wrote:
Today I might agree with you because of the fancy IDEs coupled with the
huge screen size makes this a little easier to read.
When I learned, screen space was at a premium (24x80) so I had to make
every line count and pack in as much as I could. And any short cut to
typing also helped me write things faster, so I gravitated to C as soon as
it was available at an affordable price... It also was easier to do via
dialup at 1200 or 2400 baud.
But then again, I still write in 'C' because I find it easiest to grok
after 35 years of use... I'm also teaching python to my son and haven't
introduced C and compilers and makefiles. python just runs and the
indenting thing, though it offends my aesthetic, isn't a big deal with a
decent editor.
Warner IF (expr)
BEGIN
blah
blah
blah
END
I'm sorry but I'm with whoever it was that said { } are better than
BEGIN END. Seems trivial but it's not to me.
IMO, that's taking 1 part of a large coherent whole and judging by that.
I am terrible with metaphors and similes, but maybe a bit like saying "I
don't like the GPL because it restricts what I can do with my code."
Here's another construct from C:
for (i = n; i > 0; --i) {
blah();
}
In a language like Pascal (really Algol), that is
FOR i = n TO 0 DO
Blah()
DONE
That's much closer typing-wise, isn't it? That's because of the melding
of the brackets with the control structure keywords. But you can't do
that _and_ have braces.
4:45 a.m.
New subject: Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language Unearthed!
On Aug 31, 2017, at 8:53 PM, Warner Losh
<imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
But then again, I still write in 'C' because I find it easiest to grok after 35
years of use... I'm also teaching python to my son and haven't introduced C and
compilers and makefiles. python just runs and the indenting thing, though it offends my
aesthetic, isn't a big deal with a decent editor.
Wasn't Logo supposed to be the teaching language for the young ones? "to
turtle" still sticks in my mind, even though I never actually used the language.
--lyndon
2:19 p.m.
New subject: Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language Unearthed!
Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon(a)orthanc.ca> wrote:
|> On Aug 31, 2017, at 8:53 PM, Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
|>
|> But then again, I still write in 'C' because I find it easiest to \
|> grok after 35 years of use... I'm also teaching python to my son \
|> and haven't introduced C and compilers and makefiles. python just \
|> runs and the indenting thing, though it offends my aesthetic, isn't \
|> a big deal with a decent editor.
|
|Wasn't Logo supposed to be the teaching language for the young ones? \
| "to turtle" still sticks in my mind, even though I never actually \
|used the language.
Never really having used it, but turtle and Smalltalk come
together in my mind?
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
2428
days inactive
2429
days old
8 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Bakul Shah -
Doug McIlroy -
Ian Zimmerman -
Larry McVoy -
Lyndon Nerenberg -
Steffen Nurpmeso -
Warner Losh -
Wesley Parish