20 May
2017
20 May
'17
10:46 a.m.
On 2017-05-20 04:00, Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
https://ia601901.us.archive.org/10/items/bitsavers_decpdp11ulLTRIX112.0SPDS…
Looks like it requires MMU, but not split I/D space as it lists the
following as compatible: M11, 11/23+, 11/24, 11/34, 11/40 and 11/60. It
does require 256kb of memory. See table 2, page 6 for details.
Uh...? Where do you see that there is any TCP/IP support in Ultrix-11?
If any was done by someone else, there is no saying that it would be
usable on a machine without split I/D. To be honest, I've never seen any
mention of TCP/IP on any machine without split I/D space. I guess it
could be done, but it would be a rather big headache...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
20 May
20 May
5:39 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
There is absolutely TCP/IP in Ultrix-11. This is an emulated 11/23+:
--
hrb11# uname -a
ULTRIX-11 hrb11 3 0 PDP-11/23
hrb11# ifconfig qe0
qe0: 192.168.1.199 netmask ffffff00
flags=263<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING>
broadcast: 192.168.1.255
hrb11# netstat -rn
Routing tables
Destination Gateway Flags Refcnt Use Interface
74.42.148.138 192.168.1.1 UGH 0 0 qe0
192.168.1 192.168.1.199 U 1 0 qe0
default 192.168.1.1 UG 0 0 qe0
192.168.5 192.168.1.1 UG 0 0 qe0
hrb11# ftp 192.168.1.63
Connected to 192.168.1.63.
220 aelfric FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
Name (192.168.1.63:root):
...
--
It has trouble talking to the outside world, probably not a big surprise,
but works just fine on my local network. I am working on getting it
installed in a real 11/23 but the Ultrix RL02 driver doesn't seem to like
my Dilog emulation board.
-Henry
On 20 May 2017 at 06:46, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> wrote:
On 2017-05-20 04:00, Warner Losh
<imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
https://ia601901.us.archive.org/10/items/bitsavers_decpdp11u
lLTRIX112.0SPDSep84_870730/AE-X370C-TC_ULTRIX-11_2.0SPD_Sep84.pdf
Looks like it requires MMU, but not split I/D space as it lists the
following as compatible: M11, 11/23+, 11/24, 11/34, 11/40 and 11/60. It
does require 256kb of memory. See table 2, page 6 for details.
Uh...? Where do you see that there is any TCP/IP support in Ultrix-11? If
any was done by someone else, there is no saying that it would be usable on
a machine without split I/D. To be honest, I've never seen any mention of
TCP/IP on any machine without split I/D space. I guess it could be done,
but it would be a rather big headache...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
6:18 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> wrote:
On 2017-05-20 04:00, Warner Losh
<imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
https://ia601901.us.archive.org/10/items/bitsavers_decpdp11u
I read the sources to see the TCP/IP support was there (that's the bit
about adding Berkeley Sockets). I see nowhere that it's excluded for the
non I/D machines, but haven't tried it first hand. I got interested not
because of the PDP-11, but because I have an old Rainbow that recently
started running Venix (v7-based version) and was trolling around for some
way to do TCP/IP to it (though w/o readily available ethernet cards, I'm
not sure it is a viable project).
Warner
lLTRIX112.0SPDSep84_870730/AE-X370C-TC_ULTRIX-11_2.0SPD_Sep84.pdf
Looks like it requires MMU, but not split I/D space as it lists the
following as compatible: M11, 11/23+, 11/24, 11/34, 11/40 and 11/60. It
does require 256kb of memory. See table 2, page 6 for details.
Uh...? Where do you see that there is any TCP/IP support in Ultrix-11? If
any was done by someone else, there is no saying that it would be usable on
a machine without split I/D. To be honest, I've never seen any mention of
TCP/IP on any machine without split I/D space. I guess it could be done,
but it would be a rather big headache... 
7:05 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
I read the sources to see the TCP/IP support was there
(that's the bit
about adding Berkeley Sockets). I see nowhere that it's excluded for the
non I/D machines, but haven't tried it first hand. I got interested not
because of the PDP-11, but because I have an old Rainbow that recently
started running Venix (v7-based version) and was trolling around for some
way to do TCP/IP to it (though w/o readily available ethernet cards, I'm
not sure it is a viable project).
Boy is the memory going. What was the TCP/IP implementation people
ran on DOS to do connections over serial lines? Could that be found
and revived for such a system?
Thanks,
Arnold
8:29 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 1:05 PM, <arnold(a)skeeve.com> wrote:
Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
That would be mTCP with CSLIP. And under DOS people have that running
already, but there's limitations and it's not designed for a Unix kernel....
Warner
I read the sources to see the TCP/IP support was
there (that's the bit
about adding Berkeley Sockets). I see nowhere that it's excluded for the
non I/D machines, but haven't tried it first hand. I got interested not
because of the PDP-11, but because I have an old Rainbow that recently
started running Venix (v7-based version) and was trolling around for some
way to do TCP/IP to it (though w/o readily available ethernet cards, I'm
not sure it is a viable project).
Boy is the memory going. What was the TCP/IP implementation people
ran on DOS to do connections over serial lines? Could that be found
and revived for such a system?
8:40 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
On 2017-05-20 19:39, Henry Bent wrote:
There is absolutely TCP/IP in Ultrix-11. This is an
emulated 11/23+:
Cool. But obviously not the version the SPD was for then. Which version
of Ultrix-11?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
8:40 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
On 2017-05-20 20:18, Warner Losh wrote:
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se
<mailto:bqt@update.uu.se>> wrote:
On 2017-05-20 04:00, Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com
<mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
https://ia601901.us.archive.org/10/items/bitsavers_decpdp11ulLTRIX112.0SPDS…
<https://ia601901.us.archive.org/10/items/bitsavers_decpdp11ulLTRIX112.0SPDSep84_870730/AE-X370C-TC_ULTRIX-11_2.0SPD_Sep84.pdf>
Looks like it requires MMU, but not split I/D space as it lists the
following as compatible: M11, 11/23+, 11/24, 11/34, 11/40 and
11/60. It
does require 256kb of memory. See table 2, page 6 for details.
Uh...? Where do you see that there is any TCP/IP support in
Ultrix-11? If any was done by someone else, there is no saying that
it would be usable on a machine without split I/D. To be honest,
I've never seen any mention of TCP/IP on any machine without split
I/D space. I guess it could be done, but it would be a rather big
headache...
I read the sources to see the TCP/IP support was there (that's the bit
about adding Berkeley Sockets). I see nowhere that it's excluded for the
non I/D machines, but haven't tried it first hand. I got interested not
because of the PDP-11, but because I have an old Rainbow that recently
started running Venix (v7-based version) and was trolling around for
some way to do TCP/IP to it (though w/o readily available ethernet
cards, I'm not sure it is a viable project).
You do know that the Rainbow is not a PDP-11, right?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
8:44 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
That was Ultrix-11 3.1, which I believe was the final version. Full source
is available on tuhs.org.
-Henry
On 20 May 2017 at 16:40, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> wrote:
On 2017-05-20 19:39, Henry Bent wrote:
There is absolutely TCP/IP in Ultrix-11. This is
an emulated 11/23+:
Cool. But obviously not the version the SPD was for then. Which version of
Ultrix-11?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
9:05 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> wrote:
On 2017-05-20 20:18, Warner Losh wrote:
Only since '84 when I bought mine... They are both small memory boxes,
though, and something that can run in a 256kB machine should be able to run
on a 892kB machine... I have bits of mch.c/low.s from Venix that I can
leverage for the port to the Ultrix kernel to the 8088 that's inside the
Rainbow it would be running on.
Warner
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se
<mailto:bqt@update.uu.se>> wrote:
On 2017-05-20 04:00, Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com
<mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
https://ia601901.us.archive.org/10/items/bitsavers_decpdp11u
lLTRIX112.0SPDSep84_870730/AE-X370C-TC_ULTRIX-11_2.0SPD_Sep84.pdf
<https://ia601901.us.archive.org/10/items/bitsavers_decpdp11
ulLTRIX112.0SPDSep84_870730/AE-X370C-TC_ULTRIX-11_2.0SPD_Sep84.pdf>
Looks like it requires MMU, but not split I/D space as it lists
the
following as compatible: M11, 11/23+, 11/24, 11/34, 11/40 and
11/60. It
does require 256kb of memory. See table 2, page 6 for details.
Uh...? Where do you see that there is any TCP/IP support in
Ultrix-11? If any was done by someone else, there is no saying that
it would be usable on a machine without split I/D. To be honest,
I've never seen any mention of TCP/IP on any machine without split
I/D space. I guess it could be done, but it would be a rather big
headache...
I read the sources to see the TCP/IP support was there (that's the bit
about adding Berkeley Sockets). I see nowhere that it's excluded for the
non I/D machines, but haven't tried it first hand. I got interested not
because of the PDP-11, but because I have an old Rainbow that recently
started running Venix (v7-based version) and was trolling around for
some way to do TCP/IP to it (though w/o readily available ethernet
cards, I'm not sure it is a viable project).
You do know that the Rainbow is not a PDP-11, right?
9:34 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
On 2017-05-20 23:05, Warner Losh wrote:
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se
<mailto:bqt@update.uu.se>> wrote:
On 2017-05-20 20:18, Warner Losh wrote:
I read the sources to see the TCP/IP support was there (that's
the bit
about adding Berkeley Sockets). I see nowhere that it's excluded
for the
non I/D machines, but haven't tried it first hand. I got
interested not
because of the PDP-11, but because I have an old Rainbow that
recently
started running Venix (v7-based version) and was trolling around for
some way to do TCP/IP to it (though w/o readily available ethernet
cards, I'm not sure it is a viable project).
You do know that the Rainbow is not a PDP-11, right?
Only since '84 when I bought mine... They are both small memory boxes,
though, and something that can run in a 256kB machine should be able to
run on a 892kB machine... I have bits of mch.c/low.s from Venix that I
can leverage for the port to the Ultrix kernel to the 8088 that's inside
the Rainbow it would be running on.
Good. Just wanted to make sure you wouldn't get surprised/confused
later. :-)
No offense intended.
That said, I suspect it is not that easy to move over, as this probably
ties very closely in to how the hardware works, and more specifically
the MMU. Thus, an 8088 have to do things rather differently than a PDP-11.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
9:41 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
On 21 May 2017, at 05:05, arnold(a)skeeve.com wrote:
Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
ka9q?
d
I read the sources to see the TCP/IP support was
there (that's the bit
about adding Berkeley Sockets). I see nowhere that it's excluded for the
non I/D machines, but haven't tried it first hand. I got interested not
because of the PDP-11, but because I have an old Rainbow that recently
started running Venix (v7-based version) and was trolling around for some
way to do TCP/IP to it (though w/o readily available ethernet cards, I'm
not sure it is a viable project).
Boy is the memory going. What was the TCP/IP implementation people
ran on DOS to do connections over serial lines? Could that be found
and revived for such a system? 
9:59 p.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
Also MIT PC/IP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTP_Software
Erik Fair
21 May
21 May
5:13 a.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
On Sat, May 20, 2017, at 17:34, Johnny Billquist wrote:
That said, I suspect it is not that easy to move over,
as this probably
ties very closely in to how the hardware works, and more specifically
the MMU. Thus, an 8088 have to do things rather differently than a
PDP-11.
Also, x86 is totally "split I/D" by any relevant definition, and has a
20-bit physical address space.
11:04 a.m.
New subject: Unix with TCP/IP for small PDP-11s
Also, x86 is totally "split I/D" by any
relevant definition, and has a 20-bit physical address space.
The physical address space isn't the issue. The PDP-11's (well the later
ones) had 22 bits of address space.
Even the amount of virtual address space wasn't the problem. The problem was really
the lack of segments The PDP11, only had 8 for code and 8 for the combined stack/data
(on the split I/D) machine.
While we were able to "thunk" in a code overlay system without any real hardware
support, there's no way to do that practically for data.
As I stated earlier, using the BSD networking code, we ran out of the combined code/data
registers when it came to having ot have one to map the mbufs. I supposed you could have
added more magic (and perhaps th is is what the later Ultrix did), to carefully unmap one
of the data segements to get to the network data, but boy, we never figured out a good way
to do that when we tried. We retired all but the 11/70's (which we had three of)
at the time as the Vaxes and other machines were beginning to roll in. In fact, I did
eventually also turn one of the 11/70's into a router using my LOS (little operating
system...no time for sharing, uniprocessor system) gateway OS. Each driver ran in
it's own little program so it was a lot easier.
2541
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13 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
arnold＠skeeve.com -
David Arnold -
Erik E. Fair -
Henry Bent -
Johnny Billquist -
Random832 -
Ron Natalie -
Warner Losh