V7 filesystem work
by Jonathan Naylor
Hello All
A couple of weeks ago I hacked the program v7 from the bostic_tools to
work under all sorts of different Unix versions. It worked great and
allowed me to snoop around the V7 file system images from native Linux.
Anyone who wants a copy can send me an e-mail.
Anyway I had a few hours spare today, and decided to try adding the V7
filesystem to the Linux kernel. Results so far are encouraging:
g4klx:/usr/src/linux# ls -l /mnt
total 333
drwxrwxrwx 7 root root 224 Sep 22 1988 .
drwxr-xr-x 19 root root 1024 Feb 14 11:55 ..
drwxrwxr-x 2 3 3 2512 Sep 22 1988 bin
-rwxr-xr-x 1 3 3 8986 Jun 8 1979 boot
drwxrwxr-x 2 3 3 160 Sep 22 1988 dev
drwxrwxr-x 2 3 3 336 Sep 22 1988 etc
-rwxr-xr-x 1 daemon daemon 53302 Jun 8 1979 hphtunix
-rwxr-xr-x 1 daemon daemon 52850 Jun 8 1979 hptmunix
drwxrwxr-x 2 3 3 192 Sep 22 1988 lib
drwxrwxr-x 2 root lp 96 Sep 22 1988 mdec
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root daemon 50990 Jun 8 1979 rkunix
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root daemon 51982 Jun 8 1979 rl2unix
-rwxr-xr-x 1 daemon daemon 51790 Jun 8 1979 rphtunix
-rwxr-xr-x 1 daemon daemon 51274 Jun 8 1979 rptmunix
g4klx:/usr/src/linux# df
Filesystem 1024-blocks Used Available Capacity Mounted on
/dev/hda1 3031184 1920771 953665 67% /
/dev/loop0 1919 1877 42 98% /mnt
g4klx:/usr/src/linux#
I am using the loop block device to allow me to mount a file as a block
device, this saves me having to add a new partition to my disc. There
should be no reason why it won't work with a true disc partition. The V7
filesystem under Linux is read/write.
Anyone interested ?
Jonathan
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<DELQA is not 68k, The DEUNA is. The DELQA is a cost reduced version
<(less buggy too) of the DEQNA and is largely logically the same as the
<DEQNA.
Memory parity exception... Eat foot time.
DELQA M7516 is 68k and lance chip... had to pull mine to check. The M7504
however I am correct as I pulled one down from the shelf before dining on
foot. Oh and the reson I forgot it's 68k, was the DELQA is far more
reliable! that and I only open the BA123 one a year to check the fans and
clean dust. It just don't break. ;)
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA19969
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:36:31 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Feb 19 12:36:11 1999
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA19961
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.OZ.AU>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:36:21 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.OZ.AU;
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:36:11 -0500
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:36:11 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <990218213611.202000b8(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: DEQNA (was was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
><The replacement ethernet controller was the DELQA, which was a complete
><redesign and used a 68000 processor.
>The DELQA was not 68000.
Hate to turn this into a "no it isn't, yet it is" sequence, but all
my DELQA's have prominent 68000's on 'em.
> The board was far to small for that
No, it isn't. The 68000 is the quad pack, and is smaller than either
of the two custom gate arrays that does the Q-bus handshaking.
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20047
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:07:20 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Feb 19 13:06:14 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20040
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:07:11 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA02230;
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:06:14 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199902190306.OAA02230(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
In-Reply-To: <006401be5baa$06ce3da0$33d1b7c7@eric-edwards> from Eric Edwards at "Feb 18, 1999 8:48:59 pm"
To: eekg(a)ix.netcom.com (Eric Edwards)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:06:14 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Eric Edwards:
> I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but you can build a working 2.9
> kernel (sans network) from the sources by just commenting out the references
> to the networking include files. I think there is an offending reference in
> syslocal.c also.
>
> Eric Edwards
> eekg(a)ix.netcom.com
> mag(a)csh.rit.edu
What is happening is that `make depend' invokes a script which finds
#includes in the source code, and builds a make dependency. However,
it's not very intelligent, and doesn't ignore:
#ifdef INET
#include <stuff>
when INET isn't defined. :-) This bites on several C files.
You just have to hand-prune the Makefile after make depend :-)
This is 2.9BSD, BTW, ignore if you're not using it.
Ciao!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA21635
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:20:30 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 19 20:19:31 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA21630
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:20:14 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA26451;
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:19:33 +0100
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:19:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
In-Reply-To: <199902190157.AA29020(a)world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990219111730.26158A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Allison J Parent wrote:
> <You obviously knows more about this than I do. :-)
> <However, as I said, atleast the DELQA have an M68K...
> <And the DEQNA is old, yes...
>
> DELQA is not 68k, The DEUNA is. The DELQA is a cost reduced version
> (less buggy too) of the DEQNA and is largely logically the same as the
> DEQNA.
Really? I have a DELQA sitting right in front of me, and when I look at
it, the large chip definitely says M68000. What could that be then?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA21652
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:23:04 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 19 20:22:35 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA21647
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:22:50 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA26532;
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:22:37 +0100
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:22:35 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEQNA (was was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
In-Reply-To: <199902190214.AA14211(a)world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990219112030.26158B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Allison J Parent wrote:
> <The replacement ethernet controller was the DELQA, which was a complete
> <redesign and used a 68000 processor.
>
> The DELQA was not 68000. The board was far to small for that and had to be
> Qbus dual width and compatable with DEQNA. I have a few of them in my vaxen
> too. The Unibus versions DEUNA and the later DELUA were 68k and very good.
Hate to disagree with you, Alison. The the DELQA really is 68000, take a
peek inside yourself. It is a dual-width too...
And the DEUNA is T-11, while the DELUA is 68000.
I have never bothered plugging in any DEUNAs myself, since DELUAs are
pretty common, and they atleast are pretty good. Never had any problems
with any of them.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong, just that I was.
Not an argument, just posting to the group what went private by error.
<Never looked carefully at RQDX?, but the DELQA uses an M68K, that much I
<*do* know. (As do the DELUA)
Having two Qbus VAXen and several Qbus PDP-11s it's old turf. Also I worked
for DEC Engineering. that and I've done a lot of hardware level work on my
systems (repaired dead boards) so the designs are more familair.
<You obviously knows more about this than I do. :-)
<However, as I said, atleast the DELQA have an M68K...
<And the DEQNA is old, yes...
DELQA is not 68k, The DEUNA is. The DELQA is a cost reduced version
(less buggy too) of the DEQNA and is largely logically the same as the
DEQNA.
<> The DEUNA is quite different.
<
<Obviously. But it is also pretty old. Not as buggy though, which should
<have been a clue. :-)
Also The DELUA.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA19690
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:59:39 +1100 (EST)
>From "Eric Edwards" <eekg(a)ix.netcom.com> Fri Feb 19 11:48:59 1999
Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA19683
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:59:27 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from smap@localhost)
by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4)
id TAA22942; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:58:39 -0600 (CST)
Received: from roc-ny1-19.ix.netcom.com(199.183.209.51) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3)
id rma022871; Thu Feb 18 19:58:23 1999
Message-ID: <006401be5baa$06ce3da0$33d1b7c7@eric-edwards>
From: "Eric Edwards" <eekg(a)ix.netcom.com>
To: "maximum entropy" <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>,
<pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:48:59 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but you can build a working 2.9
kernel (sans network) from the sources by just commenting out the references
to the networking include files. I think there is an offending reference in
syslocal.c also.
Eric Edwards
eekg(a)ix.netcom.com
mag(a)csh.rit.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 11:36 PM
Subject: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
>"make unix" failed:
>Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA19762
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:14:46 +1100 (EST)
>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Tue Feb 16 23:36:00 1999
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19757
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:14:38 +1100 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0)
id VAA07685; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:14:33 -0500 (EST)
Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA14211; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:14:32 -0500
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:14:32 -0500
From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199902190214.AA14211(a)world.std.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEQNA (was was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
<The DEQNA uses a Intel 8751 (an EPROM version of 8051 family). I suspect th
<it may deal with the programming protocol and the ring buffers. The
<chip with the F (with bars top and bottom of the letter) is probably
<Fujitsu.
Correct on both cases.
<These boards had a fairly bad reputation for lockups and dropped packets.
<There was a 20+ wire ECO along with a PAL chip (with 8 of the pins cut off
<soldered on top of another chip.
Actually there were revs A->n and each rev had a step. The last one was
N-11... it was marginal. Good one tended to be good and the bad were PITA.
Also they tended to fail far often than MTBF predictions.
<The replacement ethernet controller was the DELQA, which was a complete
<redesign and used a 68000 processor.
The DELQA was not 68000. The board was far to small for that and had to be
Qbus dual width and compatable with DEQNA. I have a few of them in my vaxen
too. The Unibus versions DEUNA and the later DELUA were 68k and very good.
They were partly the reason why 730s and 750s were used for routers long
after they were replaced for other tasks.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA19811
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:23:12 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: DEQNA (was was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au
| Just for the sake of being picky... the DEQNA is based on an Intel
| microcontroller chip (something 8085-ish, I think). The ethernet chipset
| seems to be Fairchild (it's certainly got a big F on it.)
|
The DEQNA uses a Intel 8751 (an EPROM version of 8051 family). I suspect that
it may deal with the programming protocol and the ring buffers. The
chip with the F (with bars top and bottom of the letter) is probably
Fujitsu.
These boards had a fairly bad reputation for lockups and dropped packets.
There was a 20+ wire ECO along with a PAL chip (with 8 of the pins cut off)
soldered on top of another chip.
The replacement ethernet controller was the DELQA, which was a complete
redesign and used a 68000 processor.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19489
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:41:28 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 19 10:41:03 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19484
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:41:18 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA05467;
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:41:06 +0100
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:41:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
In-Reply-To: <199902190022.AA25325(a)world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990219013735.1502E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi, Alison.
> <You might not be totally out. I also thought the DEQNA was T-11 based,
> <since the DEUNA is. :-)
>
> I have a DEQNA in front of me. There is a micro and that is a 8751 8bitter.
> The big chip is a LSI ASIC that is a linked list DMA controller. No t-11.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong, just that I was.
> The RQDXn(n={1,2,3} uses a t-11. The DELQA also does not use a T-11.
Never looked carefully at RQDX?, but the DELQA uses an M68K, that much I
*do* know. (As do the DELUA)
> Both use lots of logic in PALs and ASICs to perform several state machines
> needed for eithenet. At the time of development there were few complete
> and fast enough chipsets for eithernet. The DEQNA is mid 80s design and
> quite old.
You obviously knows more about this than I do. :-)
However, as I said, atleast the DELQA have an M68K...
And the DEQNA is old, yes...
> The DEUNA is quite different.
Obviously. But it is also pretty old. Not as buggy though, which should
have been a clue. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA19674
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:57:56 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<> I'm going to give up as I seem to remember nothing anymore... sigh.
<> Allison also sent e-mail saying the DEQNA is not T-11 based. I guess
<> I'm thinking of an RQDX3. I've had no place to unpack my old iron in
<> over three years and certainly miss being able to pick up the part in
<> question before foaming at the mouth spouting nonsense. Many apologies
<> for suggesting such major inaccuracies. -- Ken
<>
<> P.S. Allison describe the DEQNA as a state-driven device with PALs
<> (I think) and that "big F" may the the gate array also mentioned.
<
<You might not be totally out. I also thought the DEQNA was T-11 based,
<since the DEUNA is. :-)
I have a DEQNA in front of me. There is a micro and that is a 8751 8bitter.
The big chip is a LSI ASIC that is a linked list DMA controller. No t-11.
The RQDXn(n={1,2,3} uses a t-11. The DELQA also does not use a T-11.
Both use lots of logic in PALs and ASICs to perform several state machines
needed for eithenet. At the time of development there were few complete
and fast enough chipsets for eithernet. The DEQNA is mid 80s design and
quite old.
The DEUNA is quite different.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19476
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:40:24 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
VaxMate
by Erin W. Corliss
My local computer junk store has a VaxMate for sale. I'm not sure of the
model -- It has a DB-25 serial port, 10-base-2 ethernet, and a phone-jack
like printer port on the back, as well as an internal ST-225 hard drive
and a 5.25 inch floppy drive.
Anyway, when I turn it on it tries to boot up -- the graphical slider
thing on the screen gets about 90% of the way across and it displays the
number 83, which I assume is an eeror code since the number changes if you
boot it up with no keyboard. Anyone know what the 83 means or where I can
get a list of VaxMate error codes? Also, how intelligent is this machine
compared to a terminal? Will it actually run a Vax operating system or
does it need a server?
--------------------------------------------------------
"...color flashing thunder crashing dynamite machine..."
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19267
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:25:25 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 19 09:24:43 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19259
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:25:14 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA02756;
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:24:44 +0100
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:24:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
cc: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
In-Reply-To: <199902181846.NAA05766(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990219002351.1502D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> I'm going to give up as I seem to remember nothing anymore... sigh.
> Allison also sent e-mail saying the DEQNA is not T-11 based. I guess
> I'm thinking of an RQDX3. I've had no place to unpack my old iron in
> over three years and certainly miss being able to pick up the part in
> question before foaming at the mouth spouting nonsense. Many apologies
> for suggesting such major inaccuracies. -- Ken
>
> P.S. Allison describe the DEQNA as a state-driven device with PALs
> (I think) and that "big F" may the the gate array also mentioned.
You might not be totally out. I also thought the DEQNA was T-11 based,
since the DEUNA is. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19430
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:22:47 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<As already mentioned in previous messages, I'm working on getting
<2.9BSD onto a Pro 350. I'm using 2.9BSD as a starting point because
<it claims to support machines without split i/d. The 350 uses the
<F-11 chipset, which I have read does not support split i/d.
The F11 does not do I&D split but does have user/system.
<I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
<used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
<says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
<about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
<the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
<in a single 64k segment?
It's my understanding that 2.11 will run on F11 systems (pro350 and 11/23)
if properly configured but the only binaries loose are for split I&D.
So if properly configured you can get 2.11 to utilize the user/system
spaces.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA15404
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:32:52 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Feb 18 11:25:53 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA15399
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:32:38 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA05895
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:25:53 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:25:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902180125.RAA05895(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
> The F11 does not do I&D split but does have user/system.
Correct. Some systems also have an 18bit only MMU which restricts
memory to 248kb max (others have a 22bit MMU and can physically
have more memory).
> It's my understanding that 2.11 will run on F11 systems (pro350 and 11/23)
> if properly configured but the only binaries loose are for split I&D.
Not likely. The kernel won't fit in 48kb that I know of. And there
will be no networking support since that requires supervisor mode
which non-split I/D systems don't have.
> So if properly configured you can get 2.11 to utilize the user/system spaces.
The skeleton of a Makefile for non-split a kernel exists but it
will take much work (it is essentially just a list of file that may
or may not be 100% current) to kick into shape. Also, remember that
programs like 'csh', 'vi' and so on are not only split I/D but
overlaid - they will not run on a non-split machine.
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA15443
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:44:04 +1100 (EST)
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Feb 18 11:43:27 1999
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.216.42])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA15438
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:43:48 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01509;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:43:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902180143.UAA01509(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:43:27 -0500 (EST)
Cc: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <36CAEA1F.D5D7C838(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at Feb 17, 99 08:11:12 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
| I don't have any docs on the DECNA, but they must exist. It's
| probably pretty close to the DEQNA.
The DECNA uses one of the earlier Intel network chips. It lives
on the CTI bus, a bus like no other. I believe the DEQNA is T-11
based and lives on the vastly better known Q-bus... -- Ken
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA18371
for pups-liszt; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 05:47:10 +1100 (EST)
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Fri Feb 19 04:46:35 1999
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.216.42])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA18366
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 05:46:55 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05766;
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:46:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902181846.NAA05766(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
To: simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk (James Lothian)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:46:35 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <01BE5B64.56247680@SONAR> from "James Lothian" at Feb 18, 99 01:14:51 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm going to give up as I seem to remember nothing anymore... sigh.
Allison also sent e-mail saying the DEQNA is not T-11 based. I guess
I'm thinking of an RQDX3. I've had no place to unpack my old iron in
over three years and certainly miss being able to pick up the part in
question before foaming at the mouth spouting nonsense. Many apologies
for suggesting such major inaccuracies. -- Ken
P.S. Allison describe the DEQNA as a state-driven device with PALs
(I think) and that "big F" may the the gate array also mentioned.
| From simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 18 12:27:23 1999
|
| Just for the sake of being picky... the DEQNA is based on an Intel
| microcontroller chip (something 8085-ish, I think). The ethernet chipset
| seems to be Fairchild (it's certainly got a big F on it.)
|
| James
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
<but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
<much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
<binary) to include different drivers, etc.
The UU.SE and gatway.dec.com version of it I ahve running on my PRO-350
for the last year or more.
I'd like to have SLIP/PPP running on it or even be able to tweek it.
< 1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
Oh hand I'd say yes.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15035
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:32:11 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Pro/Venix
by Warren Toomey
In article by David C. Jenner:
> It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
> archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
> covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
> DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
>
> So:
> 1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
> 2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
> aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
> (Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
> to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
> all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
> objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
> which the Ancient Unix license covers...
>
> Dave
If we could get DEC/Compaq to allow access to Pro/Venix by UNIX source
license holders, then yes I would certainly add it to the Archive. If
there's no source code, and SCO are happy, then it could go up for anon ftp.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA14692
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:21:58 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Feb 18 09:18:40 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14687
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:21:50 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18103
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:23:55 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14652
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:16:35 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18083
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:18:40 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199902172318.KAA18083(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Help with regs on Pro serial ports
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:18:40 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm trying to help get the kernel for the version of 2.9BSD ported to the
Pro-350. The patches supplied by Rick Macklem are slightly incomplete, e.g
there is no config shell script which knows about the new device drivers etc.
Anyway, one vital missing file is pcreg.h, which holds the structure
describing the registers of the serial ports on the Pro-350. By perusing
the file dev/pc.c, I've worked out that the struct looks something like:
struct pcdevice {
??? baud;
??? cdb;
??? csa;
??? csb;
??? csr;
??? dbuf;
??? mc0;
??? mc1;
??? mode;
??? stat;
}
where the fields are not in the correct order, and I have no idea what
C type each is. If anybody can help recreate this file, could they
email me?!
I've included below the C comments at the top of dev/pc.c.
If anybody has Rick Macklem's email address, could they pass that on too?
I will email him and see if he's got a more complete set of patches somewhere.
Many thanks in advance,
Warren
/*
* This driver handles the two serial ports on the back of the
* pro3xx system unit. Although not software compatible, they
* are handled as minor device 0 & 1 respectively, for the printer
* and communication port. Modem control is included but no sync
* serial support for the com. port.
* NOTE: The DSR line in the printer port is used for carrier
* detect so terminals or modems should be cabled accordingly.
* Local terminal cables should jumper DTR-CDT so that the carrier
* will appear to be up or PC_SOFTCAR defined and devs or'd with 0200.
* NOTE2: The interrupt service routines are as follows:
* plrint - printer port receive
* plxint - printer port transmit
* cmintr - communication port com. interrupt
* Modem transition interrupts are NOT used.
*/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15025
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:31:53 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
2.9BSD: mbuf.h
by maximum entropy
I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
pups archive.
"make unix" failed:
Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
I looked in the usr.tar from the distribution, and I don't see mbuf.h
anywhere.
Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA11005
for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:17:41 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Feb 17 15:15:02 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11000
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:17:28 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA23159
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:02 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> pups archive.
>
> "make unix" failed:
> Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
>
> I looked in the usr.tar from the distribution, and I don't see mbuf.h
> anywhere.
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA11030
for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:24:28 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Feb 17 15:26:09 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11024
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:24:18 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA14818;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:26:09 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199902170526.QAA14818(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
In-Reply-To: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Feb 16, 1999 9:15: 2 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:26:09 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Hi -
>
> > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > pups archive.
> > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
>
> That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
>
> Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
>
> I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
>
> Steven Schultz
Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
'Night!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11134
for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:01:58 +1100 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Feb 17 16:00:45 1999
Received: from smtp10.nwnexus.com (smtp10.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.53])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA11128
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:01:40 +1100 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66])
by smtp10.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05965;
Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:01:09 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <36CA5B0D.8A2B2629(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:00:45 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>,
Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>,
PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
References: <199902170526.QAA14818(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
binary) to include different drivers, etc.
I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
unusable or missing in the set I have.
It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
So:
1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
(Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
which the Ancient Unix license covers...
Actually, I'm amazed I've gotten as far as I have with this, because
I've been pretty passive about finding it. It's only taken 2 years
so far.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > Hi -
> >
> > > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > > pups archive.
> > > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
> >
> > That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
> >
> > Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> > got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> > compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> > weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> > been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
> >
> > I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> > on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> > painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> > for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> > real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> > the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> > processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> > those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
> >
> > Steven Schultz
>
> Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
> I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
>
> 'Night!
>
> Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11133
for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:01:50 +1100 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Feb 17 16:00:45 1999
Received: from smtp10.nwnexus.com (smtp10.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.53])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA11122
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:01:34 +1100 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66])
by smtp10.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05965;
Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:01:09 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <36CA5B0D.8A2B2629(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:00:45 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>,
Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>,
PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
References: <199902170526.QAA14818(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
binary) to include different drivers, etc.
I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
unusable or missing in the set I have.
It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
So:
1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
(Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
which the Ancient Unix license covers...
Actually, I'm amazed I've gotten as far as I have with this, because
I've been pretty passive about finding it. It's only taken 2 years
so far.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > Hi -
> >
> > > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > > pups archive.
> > > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
> >
> > That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
> >
> > Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> > got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> > compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> > weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> > been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
> >
> > I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> > on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> > painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> > for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> > real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> > the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> > processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> > those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
> >
> > Steven Schultz
>
> Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
> I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
>
> 'Night!
>
> Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA11461
for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:23:34 +1100 (EST)
>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Wed Feb 17 18:22:50 1999
Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA11456
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:23:21 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from entropy@localhost)
by zippy.bernstein.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA24861;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:22:50 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:22:50 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199902170822.DAA24861(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <36CA5B0D.8A2B2629(a)halcyon.com> (djenner(a)halcyon.com)
Subject: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:00:45 -0800
>From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
>
>Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
>to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
>VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
installed (also with original install media and docs).
>Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
>but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
>much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
>binary) to include different drivers, etc.
>
>I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
>disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
>unusable or missing in the set I have.
I have the following archives of Venix-related stuff that I snagged
from the net a few years back. If you think any of them might contain
what you're looking for, let me know and I'll give more detail about
their contents.
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 3833 Oct 17 1997 README
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 532 Oct 17 1997 README.VAX
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 30819 Oct 17 1997 RX50.notes
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 2530759 Oct 17 1997 Venix1.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 2503931 Oct 17 1997 Venix2.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 15817 Oct 17 1997 cathang.txt
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 332543 Oct 17 1997 mopimage.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 443 Oct 17 1997 nbsdrx50.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 897510 Oct 17 1997 nbsdrx50.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 155648 Oct 17 1997 pppd
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 193536 Oct 17 1997 pr0801eng.sys
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 14153 Oct 17 1997 raind112.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 6621 Oct 17 1997 rx50.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 81152 Oct 17 1997 teledisk.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 61440 Oct 17 1997 venix.tar
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 116 Oct 17 1997 venix1.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1119490 Oct 17 1997 venix1s.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1095824 Oct 17 1997 venix1u.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 424 Oct 17 1997 venix2.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1058970 Oct 17 1997 venix2s.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1145720 Oct 17 1997 venix2u.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 332362 Oct 17 1997 vnx2u2u5.zip
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA11492
for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:33:00 +1100 (EST)
>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Wed Feb 17 18:32:05 1999
Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA11487
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:32:47 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from entropy@localhost)
by zippy.bernstein.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA24878;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:32:05 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:32:05 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199902170832.DAA24878(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com> (sms(a)moe.2bsd.com)
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:02 -0800 (PST)
>From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
>
> I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
Sounds like fun. Any hints on the correct upgrade path to avoid this
lossage?
Better yet, would you be willing and able to upload a disk image or
tar file of an upgraded system to the PUPS archive (or directly to me
if it's not of general interest), so I could use that as a starting
point?
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA11533
for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:43:19 +1100 (EST)
>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Wed Feb 17 18:42:40 1999
Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA11527
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:43:06 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from entropy@localhost)
by zippy.bernstein.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA24887;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:42:40 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:42:40 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199902170842.DAA24887(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
As already mentioned in previous messages, I'm working on getting
2.9BSD onto a Pro 350. I'm using 2.9BSD as a starting point because
it claims to support machines without split i/d. The 350 uses the
F-11 chipset, which I have read does not support split i/d.
I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
in a single 64k segment?
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA12587
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:36:09 +1100 (EST)
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Feb 18 00:35:30 1999
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.216.42])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA12582
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:35:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12462;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com (maximum entropy)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199902170822.DAA24861(a)zippy.bernstein.com> from "maximum entropy" at Feb 17, 99 03:22:50 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
| Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
| they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
| for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
| vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
| bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
| installed (also with original install media and docs).
My time playing with Pro's faded out before Venix 2 was available (free)
for me to try. I've played a fair bit with Venix 1.1 on both Pro 350's
and Pro 380's. The Venix 1 series I feel is basically V6 derived while
I understood the Venix 2 series was derived from Sys III.
About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
> The stuff I did went out on a Usenix distribution tape in about 1983/84
> and had to be merged into a 2.9BSD distribution. I did generate floppy
> sets for a few people, because that was the only easy way to get it
> installed. (The first install here was actually done by downloading the
> kernel over the serial port talking to the PDP 11 prom (ODS?).)
I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
-- Ken
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA12654
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:42:25 +1100 (EST)
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Feb 18 00:42:05 1999
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.216.42])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA12649
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:42:16 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15916;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902171442.JAA15916(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com (maximum entropy)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199902170842.DAA24887(a)zippy.bernstein.com> from "maximum entropy" at Feb 17, 99 03:42:40 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
| I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
| used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
| says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
| about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
| the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
| in a single 64k segment?
Have you been able to acquire the documentation for the DECNA card? I
think that is roughly what it is called. The Pro Ethernet card. A few
old timers like myself and Dan Lanciani talked years ago about running
things on a Pro and no-one seems to know much about this relatively
critical bit of documentation. Again referring to Rick Macklem's
correspondence (I believe I was asking him, again, about these docs):
> Well, the short answer is "I'm not sure what the answers are". At one
> point someone mentioned they were putting the Pro stuff into 2BSD, but
> I'm not sure if they actually did it. (The guys that used it the most
> had it running on a lab of Pro380s at Columbia U. (I think. It's the
> one right in NY city.)) His name was Charlie Kim (again, I think?) and
> did some stuff to it so that it worked reasonably well on a Pro380, but
> I have no idea how you might find him now. (It was a real dog on a Pro350
> because it didn't have separate I and D space.)
The rumors we were able to find all pointed to this place and person
WRT documentation for the ethernet card.
-- Ken
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA12725
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:12:16 +1100 (EST)
>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Thu Feb 18 01:11:36 1999
Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA12720
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:12:06 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from entropy@localhost)
by zippy.bernstein.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA25176;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:11:36 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:11:36 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199902171511.KAA25176(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
>
>About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
>me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
>what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
Would you be able to send images (rx50 teledisk, or plain dd dumps) of
these disks to me or to the archive?
>I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
>see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
Those files aren't 100% complete. Excerpt of a mail I sent last night
to Warren Toomey:
#The instructions in boot.doc are mangled.
#The patches included are reversed, and didn't apply cleanly to one of
#the files (/usr/src/net/sys/sys/machdep.c). Also, it looks like the
#guy that produced that set of changes forgot to include his
#modifications to /usr/src/sys/conf/config, but I managed to hack
#together something that might work.
Then there's the fact that the 2.9 distribution won't even compile,
and the 2.9 upgrade patches are a nightmare...
Maybe I'll just stick to venix :-)
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA12848
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:44:50 +1100 (EST)
>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Thu Feb 18 01:44:04 1999
Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA12843
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:44:40 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from entropy@localhost)
by zippy.bernstein.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA25215;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:44:04 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:44:04 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199902171544.KAA25215(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
>
>About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
>me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
>what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
Would you be able to send images (rx50 teledisk, or plain dd dumps) of
these disks to me or to the archive?
>I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
>see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
Those files aren't 100% complete. Excerpt of a mail I sent last night
to Warren Toomey:
#The instructions in boot.doc are mangled.d
#The patches included are reversed, and didn't apply cleanly to one of
#the files (/usr/src/net/sys/sys/machdep.c). Also, it looks like the
#guy that produced that set of changes forgot to include his
#modifications to /usr/src/sys/conf/config, but I managed to hack
#together something that might work.
Then there's the fact that the 2.9 distribution won't even compile,
and the 2.9 upgrade patches are a nightmare...
Maybe I'll just stick to venix :-)
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA12922
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:12:05 +1100 (EST)
>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Thu Feb 18 02:11:24 1999
Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA12917
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:11:54 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from entropy@localhost)
by zippy.bernstein.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA25258;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:11:24 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:11:24 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199902171611.LAA25258(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171442.JAA15916(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST)
>
>Have you been able to acquire the documentation for the DECNA card? I
I haven't looked for it. The DECNA is optional, and my Pro doesn't
have it. All Pro's came with an AUI port, but without the card it
doesn't do anything.
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA12934
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:12:18 +1100 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Thu Feb 18 02:11:12 1999
Received: from smtp04.nwnexus.com (smtp04.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.52])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA12927
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:12:08 +1100 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66])
by smtp04.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21063;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:11:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <36CAEA1F.D5D7C838(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:11:12 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
CC: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
References: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I haven't tried the 2.9 stuff at all on a Pro. I have had it
running on an 11/23+ (w/binary license) for 10 years. The
problem is the networking, as you have found.
Venix/Pro 1.1 and 2.0 run just fine on the Pro 380, and it's
pretty painless to install. I have distribution disks for
Pro/Venix 1.1, but the install disk has apparently been
overwritten with the 2.0 installation disk. And my distribution
for 2.0 is missing a couple of original disks; I have copies of
those disks, but they get read errors.
I guess the 2.9 stuff would be interesting if you got it to
work on the Pro, especially if you got networking to work.
I don't have any docs on the DECNA, but they must exist. It's
probably pretty close to the DEQNA.
Dave
Ken Wellsch wrote:
>
> | Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
> | they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
> | for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
> | vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
> | bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
> | installed (also with original install media and docs).
>
> My time playing with Pro's faded out before Venix 2 was available (free)
> for me to try. I've played a fair bit with Venix 1.1 on both Pro 350's
> and Pro 380's. The Venix 1 series I feel is basically V6 derived while
> I understood the Venix 2 series was derived from Sys III.
>
> About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
> me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
> what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
>
> > The stuff I did went out on a Usenix distribution tape in about 1983/84
> > and had to be merged into a 2.9BSD distribution. I did generate floppy
> > sets for a few people, because that was the only easy way to get it
> > installed. (The first install here was actually done by downloading the
> > kernel over the serial port talking to the PDP 11 prom (ODS?).)
>
> I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
> see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
>
> -- Ken
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA12957
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:17:55 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Feb 18 02:15:01 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA12952
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:17:47 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA02324;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:15:01 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:15:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902171615.IAA02324(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi
> Sounds like fun. Any hints on the correct upgrade path to avoid this
> lossage?
Oh, it's not _completely_ irrecoverable and is "fun" in a perverse
way.
First go thru all of the executable directories (/bin, /usr/bin,...)
and identify all of the overlaid executables and save copies of them.
Shouldn't be too many but the important one is 'ex'/'vi'. A number
of programs rely on using 'ex' scripts to edit generated files (the
kernel makefiles are _good_ examples;)), and so on. Having an older
copy of 'ex'/'vi' is the main thing I remember as saving the day.
> Better yet, would you be willing and able to upload a disk image or
> tar file of an upgraded system to the PUPS archive (or directly to me
Oh, I have no 2.9 systems - this was all done 10 years ago. The
systems I run now use MSCP/TMSCP devices and 2.9 lacks support
for those.
Steve
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13020
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:32:46 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Feb 18 02:32:00 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13014
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:32:36 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA02404;
Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:32:00 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:32:00 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902171632.IAA02404(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
> I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
> used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
> says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
> about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
> the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
> in a single 64k segment?
Oh, support was NOT removed. Non-split executables (magic number
0407 and 0410) will still run.
The kernel will not fit - without split I/D it is impossible to
create a /unix image that fits within a single 64kb (actually 48kb
since the kernel stack takes 1 segment and the 'u' area takes
another) address space.
I actually went thru the exercise once (2.10 era) of creating a bare
bones kernel that would fit in - at least the linker said it would.
That was only done by ripping out lots of stuff - no networking, no
statistics gathering, almost no drivers, etc. Never 'ran' it though
since there seemed to be little point in such a stripped down system.
Even V7 was hard pressed to run on a non-split machine! In fact there
was a paper written about shoehorning V7 onto an 11/40 and the hoops
that needed to be jumped thru. Not sure but that document might be
in the /usr/doc tree of one of the PUPS Distributions hierarchy.
Steven
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Special Agent Michael Sokolov has moved
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
My new address is:
13444 Euclid Ave. Apt. 215
East Cleveland, OH 44112
USA
My new phone # is 216-761-3656 (voice mail not set up yet, will be done in a
couple of days).
I'm still not quite done with all move-related work, so it will be a few more
days before I catch up with my E-mail.
My hardware is laid out a lot better at the new place than at the old one, so
when I'm done hooking everything up, I'll have much better work conditions for
my Project. Also the new place is physically closer to the building where all
Cleveland ISPs are located, reducing the cost of leased lines and increasing
the probability of me getting one some day.
With the hardware taking up most of the space, I originally thought that my
apartment would look like Agent Mulder's, but it actually ended up being more
like Agent Scully's. Oh well, her place is pretty nice too, and so is mine now.
Just a reminder to all Quasijarus Project folks living in the USA, be sure to
watch the X-Files this evening. They'll finally tell us what really happened to
Mulder's sister, who is the cigarette-smoking man, and all the other cool
stuff.
Special Agent Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 216-761-3656
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: MicroVAX I console port question.
by Carl Lowenstein
> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Feb 3 11:35 PST 1999
> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:11:56 -0800 (PDT)
> From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
> To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: MicroVAX I console port question.
> Mime-Version: 1.0
>
> Off-topic, but maybe somewhat related to MicroPDP-11's... I've got a
> MicroVAX I in a BA23 enclosure. I'm presently a bit thrown by the serial
> console port. I'm used to the 9pin MicroVAX II ports. From what I've
> been told, the DB25-M connector for the console requires a special serial
> cable for connecting the MicroVAX I up to a terminal. A null modem cable
> is not adequate.
My MicroVax (I and only) handbook vintage 1984 says the cable is a "BC22D-10".
VAX Systems and Options Catalog Oct 1984 describes the BC22D-10 as
"A fully shielded null modem cable". Two DB25F connectors, 6 wires.
The pins in use are 1,2,3,6,7,20. I would expect that "null modem"
means (from one end to the other) connect 2-3, 3-2, 7-7, 6-20, 20-6.
The implication is that the computer might need to see DTR asserted
before it talks to the terminal.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA08853
for pups-liszt; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:25:02 +1100 (EST)
>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Feb 4 07:24:36 1999
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA08845
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:24:45 +1100 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id QAA11267; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:24:36 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA09409; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:24:36 -0800
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:24:36 -0800 (PDT)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: MicroVAX I console port question.
In-Reply-To: <199902032037.MAA03843(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990203132057.7730C-100000(a)world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote:
> My MicroVax (I and only) handbook vintage 1984 says the cable is a "BC22D-10".
>
> VAX Systems and Options Catalog Oct 1984 describes the BC22D-10 as
> "A fully shielded null modem cable". Two DB25F connectors, 6 wires.
>
> The pins in use are 1,2,3,6,7,20. I would expect that "null modem"
> means (from one end to the other) connect 2-3, 3-2, 7-7, 6-20, 20-6.
>
> The implication is that the computer might need to see DTR asserted
> before it talks to the terminal.
Or given that everything seems to be fine on my end null modem cable-wise,
it's possible that something more serious is wrong with my MicroVAX I.
Does your handbook list what a flashing "1" LED error code means?
I'll double-check my cabling as well.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA13300
for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:08:49 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 5 05:07:56 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA13295
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:08:37 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA06615;
Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:07:58 +0100
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:07:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Memory Management
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990204192532.4375B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Erin W. Corliss wrote:
> The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
> scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
> management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
> segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
> range somewhere)?
I haven't seen anyone answering this, so here I go...
Reg. Addr.
MMR0 777572
MMR1 777574
MMR2 777576
MMR3 772516
UIPAR 777640-777656
UDPAR 777660-777676
UIPDR 777600-777616
UDPDR 777620-777636
SIPAR 772240-772256
SDPAR 772260-772276
SIPDR 772200-772216
SDPDR 772220-772236
KIPAR 772340-772356
KDPAR 772360-772376
KIPDR 772300-772316
KDPDR 772320-772336
xy in xyP?R is:
x: U - User
S - Supervisor
K - Kernel
y: I - Instruction
D - Data
PAR is Page Address Register
PDR is Page Description Register
Okay, so for the layout of the registers...
MMR0:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! \-/ ! \---/ +-- Enable relocation
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! +------ Page number
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! +---------- Page address space I/D
! ! ! ! ! ! ! +------------- Page mode
! ! ! ! ! ! +---------------- Instruction completed
! ! ! ! ! +------------------ Maintenance mode
! ! ! ! +-------------------- Enable memory management trap
! ! ! +-------------------------- Trap-Memory management
! ! +---------------------------- Abort-Read only access violation
! +------------------------------ Abort-Page length error
+-------------------------------- Abort-Non resident
The page info is for when a trap/fault occurs, and tells in which page it
occured.The rest should be pretty obvious.
MMR1:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\-------/ \---/ \-------/ \---/
! ! ! +---- Register number
! ! +------------ Amount changed (2 compl.)
! +-------------------- Register numbe
+---------------------------- Amount changed (2 compl.)
Low byte is written first, and this register tells how much registers have
changed part way through an instruction, which needs to be undone to start
the intruction again.
MMR2:
Virtual address of instruction where fault occured.
MMR3:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! +--- Enable user D space
! ! ! +----- Enable supervisor D space
! ! +------- Enable kernel D space
! +----------- Enable 22-bit mapping
+------------- Enable unibus map
If 22-bit mapping isn't enabled, the machine will be in 18-bit addressign
when MMU is enabled. Unibus-mapping is something I'll skip for now. You
need it for DMA on a 22-bit unibus machine only.
Note that at the end of a MMU trap/abort, MMR0 bit 15-12 must be cleared
for MMR1 and MMR2 to become active again.
>From a virtual address (VA), you get to the physical address (PA) like
this:
APF=VA[15:13]
DF=VA[12:0]
PA=PAR(APF)*64+DF
The PDR looks loke this:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\-----------/ ! ! ! \---/
! ! ! ! +----- ACF
! ! ! +--------- ED
! ! +--------------- W
! +----------------- A
+------------------------- PLF
ACF - Access Control Field
000 - Non resident; abort on all accesses
001 - Read only; abort on write attempt, memory mgmt trap on read
010 - Read only; abort on write attempt
011 - Unused; abort on all accesses - reserved for future use
100 - Read/Write; memory mgmt trap upon completion of read or write
101 - Read/Write; memory mgmt trap upon completion of write
110 - Read/Write; no system trap/abort action
111 - Unused; abort on all accesses - reserved for future use
A - Access to page has been made.
W - Page has been written to since PAR/PDR was loaded
ED - Expansion direction
PLF - Page length field
Now, have fun...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
MicroVAX I console port question.
by Brian D Chase
Off-topic, but maybe somewhat related to MicroPDP-11's... I've got a
MicroVAX I in a BA23 enclosure. I'm presently a bit thrown by the serial
console port. I'm used to the 9pin MicroVAX II ports. From what I've
been told, the DB25-M connector for the console requires a special serial
cable for connecting the MicroVAX I up to a terminal. A null modem cable
is not adequate.
First, I just wanted to verify that this is correct. So far I haven't
been able to access a console prompt using either a null modem cable, or a
straight through cable. So either the system isn't working correctly, or
I need to get the cable right. Secondly, if it does require a special
cable, then what are the pinouts for that cable?
I'm guessing that aside from the processor itself, the MicroVAX I is
probably a lot closer in design to its contemporary MicroPDP-11 systems.
So I'm hoping that the 25pin console port is simillar to what some of you
have worked with on your Q-bus PDP-11's.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Hardware free to a good home
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have got some hardware I have to get rid of by the end of February, and it's
free to any of you guys if you are willing to come and pick it up in Cleveland,
Ohio, USA.
Last November I received a load of equipment from one company here in
Cleveland. It was a complicated network of CPUs and peripherals of all makes
and models put together by Xerox and intended to be used as a dedicated
document processing system. The CPUs included one VAX, three unidentifiable
towers, and a bunch of PCs. I'm using the VAX and all disk and tape drives
myself for my own purposes, and I'm selling the PCs, but still I've got those
three unidentifiable towers and three very funky monitors that were attached to
them. There is also a very funky laser printer attached to one of them. Given
that the VAX and all disk and tape drives have been taken out of the equation,
it's unlikely that the rest of the stuff can still be used for that dedicated
document processing whatever thing, but the towers have some apparently generic
controller boards in them (VME or something like that) and other parts that can
be raided for. Who knows, maybe even the CPUs are standard (probably some 68K),
in which case someone who knows more about this than I do (NULL) may be able to
actually use these machines for something.
The only identification on this equipment are the Xerox model numbers. One of
the towers was called NS8090 File Server. It had an external SCSI hard disk and
an Exabyte tape drive, but I've reused these for my own purposes. The other two
towers were called 6085 workstations, and they were diskless from the beginning
(as far as I can tell they don't have any mass storage controllers). All three
have monitors with very funny connectors. Aside from the Xerox model numbers
which tell me absolutely nothing, there are no hints whatsoever as to what the
CPU architecture is and all that. All towers have AUI Ethernet ports.
The laser printer is called NS8000 Laser CP, and it was attached to the tower
that was called the NS8090 File Server. The connectors are 25-pin like the
serial and parallel ones, but they have slide locks like on AUI. These slide
locks and the fact that the printer was apparently never intended to be
connected to anything except an "NS8090 File Server" suggest that the printer's
interface is not parallel or serial, but something very funny.
It has been suggested to me that I take the boxes apart, ID as many boards as
possible, and try to sell/donate them to whoever finds them useful (and the
cabinets and such would probably have to be scrapped). However, the thing is,
I don't really have time for all this, and it's naive to think that any of this
stuff has any significant cash value.
Right now I'm in the process of moving to another (cheaper) apartment in
another part of Cleveland, and really don't feel like hauling that junk around
with me. I have got these three CPU towers, three monitors, and one laser
printer, all absolutely unidentifiable, that I have to get rid of. Given what a
great job I've done at identifying and describing this stuff, it would be naive
for me to expect to sell it. Therefore, I'm giving it away for free to anyone
who is willing to come and pick it up. I have to vacate this apartment by the
end of February, and if no one picks this stuff up, I will have no choice but
to throw it in the big dumpster, which would be a great pity if this stuff is
actually useful for something.
Once again, I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, USA.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA03045
for pups-liszt; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:53:24 +1100 (EST)
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Wed Feb 3 00:52:35 1999
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA03037
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:53:12 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29320;
Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:52:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902021452.JAA29320(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Old UNIX file system formats
To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:52:35 -0500 (EST)
Cc: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990201095832.20104A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at Feb 1, 99 10:01:14 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I shouldn't have posted without doing the proper research. I took a
gander at PUPS/Tools/Filesys/traverse.c.gz which I'm quite sure is one
of the tools I wrote when I was finally able to figure out the contents
of that V6 tape I had (also with no docs - it was such irony to look
at the setup document on the tape *after* figuring the format out that
clearly describes the block layout 8-). I notice traverse.c.gz does
indeed use the LARG flag, not HUGE. Since few care, I'll not bother
extracting enough of Venix 1.x to see whether that is where I met the
HUGE flag or it is just my faulty memory... -- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Feb 1 13:06:04 1999
|
| Hmm... I wrote a disk image editor in Visual Basic without knowing the
| specs for the filesystem -- I set it up so that if the 9th pointer is zero
| and the filesize is greater than one block, then it assumed the block
| pointed to by the 8th pointer was a list of blocks in the file.
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: low-end vaxen and unix
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
> provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
> All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
> is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that
> unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model.
How is this relevant to NetBSD/vax? Remember, architectures other than VAX do
not exist as far as I am concerned, so when I say "NetBSD", I always always
always mean NetBSD/vax.
> I don't think PUPS
> is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.
It is necessary, however, to protect the innocent novice users from falling
into the claws of that predator.
> To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
> history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
> and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
> It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
> the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's
> graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
> but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
> (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
> etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
> in some of the details.
First of all, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of binary
compatibility between 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, and Ultrix.
Second, the development didn't "split" into PDP-11 and VAX. Instead, the
MAINSTREAM UNIX system _CONVERTED_ from PDP-11 to VAX, and did so at AT&T,
before the torch was turned over to UC Berkeley. 2BSD was not mainstream UNIX.
In fact, it was not UNIX at all, since it didn't contain a kernel, only a
patchkit of userland enhancements. Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA18377
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:50:52 +1100 (EST)
>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 10:50:36 1999
Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18372
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:50:42 +1100 (EST)
Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232])
by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id TAA07147
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id TAA08049 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129195036.A7942(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
>
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
> beautifully.
>
> > There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
>
> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
> you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> diskless peering-at toy.
That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
happen to disagree?
Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
Thor
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA18413
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:07:48 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jan 30 11:09:36 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA18408
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:07:40 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA09808
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901300109.MAA09808(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <19990129195036.A7942(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jan 29, 1999 7:50:36 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> > diskless peering-at toy.
>
> That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
> responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
> in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
> can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
> time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
>
> Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
> express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
> happen to disagree?
>
> Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
> mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
> Thor
Ok, this is a warning to anybody who posts a reply to the thread above
in the mailing list. If you say something which is religious, zealous
or inflammatory, then I will issue a warning to you in the list. 2nd
time I issue a warning, I will start to moderate your postings.
This whole issue is like Linux vs. FreeBSD. The BEST answer to the
question: which is the best? is to get the user to try both out, and
they can make their own choice. As several people have explained, the
choice is a combination of technical issues AND aesthetics. And we all
have different tastes.
So respect each others tastes, and don't hassle them.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA18468
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:19:40 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jan 30 11:21:28 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA18463
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:19:32 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA09827
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901300121.MAA09827(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Is 2.xBSD `approved'?
In-Reply-To: <199901300010.TAA04883(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 29, 1999 7:10:23 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
> opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
> really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
>2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
> I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.
I hate to say this, but 2.xBSD, where x was 8, 9 and 10, was developed with
the involvement of several people at the CSRG, e.g Keith Bostic, Mike Karels,
Kirk McKusick. I'm sure Steven Schultz could give me some more names.
Although 2.xBSD is definitely not the branch which got the most attention,
I wouldn't say it was unauthorised, unapproved nor unblessed.
Actually, given that the CSRG is now disbanded, it is fair to say that
both 2.11BSD and 4.3-Quasijarus are in exactly the same boat: side branches
of the main BSD development, maintained by individuals who were not members
of the original CSRG.
Now, let us return to the more important issue of helping each other out,
rather than getting at each other. All UNIXes are worthy topics, and do
not deserve ridicule.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA20270
for pups-liszt; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 02:39:33 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: low-end vaxen and unix
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
> both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
> pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
> chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
Correct.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18090
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:54:52 +1100 (EST)
>From Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Sat Jan 30 08:54:33 1999
Received: from moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk (exim(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk [131.111.24.35])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18085
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:54:42 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost.cam.ac.uk
([127.0.0.1] helo=moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk ident=afrb2)
by moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.03 #1)
id 106Mo6-0001es-00
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:34 +0000
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 EST."
<199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:33 +0000
From: Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <E106Mo6-0001es-00(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Michael Sokolov wrote:
>A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
>diskless peering-at toy.
I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that
unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model. I don't think PUPS
is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.
>4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
>this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
>our team.
>
>> It will also run 4.3BSD
>> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
>> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
>> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
>> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
>
>The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
>since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
>maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
>else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
I don't feel that there is any need to be silly and pretentious
here; techinical arguments may be of interest, but `I'm right and
I know I am' arguments are just childish.
To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's
graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
(especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
in some of the details.
Alan Bain
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18255
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:56:43 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: low-end vaxen and unix
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
beautifully.
> There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
diskless peering-at toy.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
our team.
> It will also run 4.3BSD
> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
will run perfectly atop of an Ultrix kernel.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18025
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:38:19 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: low-end vaxen and unix
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to
disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to
recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed
from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to
routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is
KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any
SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the
drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked.
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the
Quasijarus mailing list.
If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn
to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the
Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall
compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA17536
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:42:17 +1100 (EST)
>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 07:41:53 1999
Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17525
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:42:03 +1100 (EST)
Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232])
by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id QAA01213
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id QAA03883 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000(a)world.std.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>; from Pat Barron on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
>
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. The
people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I
think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck.
There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. It will also run 4.3BSD
binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models
less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60
work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent. For
the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries
may help a bit.
Hope this helps.
THor
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17760
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:08:05 +1100 (EST)
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Sat Jan 30 08:07:36 1999
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17754
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:07:55 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18899;
Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901292207.RAA18899(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000(a)world.std.com> from "allisonp(a)world.std.com" at Jan 29, 99 04:06:28 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
-- Ken
> [...] There are however issues in that the hard disk
> interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
> some performance degrdation. [...]
>
> Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17998
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:36:06 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
low-end vaxen and unix
by Mirian Crzig Lennox
How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD? I'm thinking
about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc. I'd like to set up a
system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
show up in places like eBay. Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?
--Mirian
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA16845
for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 05:45:58 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 3
- 3
Re: low-end vaxen and unix
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> wrote:
> How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD? I'm thinking
> about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc. I'd like to set up a
> system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
> Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
> show up in places like eBay. Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
> use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?
Subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list using standard Majordomo commands and
post your question there. I'll answer it.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Snake Oil (was Re: 4.4BSD)
by Mike Jenkins
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote:
> I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
I got a whole different perspective on that Snake Oil thing after reading
"A Quarter Century of UNIX" by Peter Salus. According to Armando Stettner
(DEC Ultrix Architect) Ken Olsen meant, "Much the way people were peddling
snake oil a century ago, now every vendor is hyping Unix as a cure for
everything". He was only making a analogy but the statement was "taken
out of context". Anyway, the book has been enjoyable.
Mike
P.S. Where is Armando now? Is he still doing Unix stuff?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA05079
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:11:08 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 28 09:10:55 1999
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05073
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:10:59 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA15602;
Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:56 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id JAA04001;
Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030 (CST)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:23:58AM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at 5:23:58 -0800, David C. Jenner wrote:
> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>>
>> At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>>
>> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
>> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
>> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
>> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
>> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
>> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
>> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
>> couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
> honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
> net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
> power failure finally got it.
>
> It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
> factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The
> system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
> usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
> Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
> for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.
I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA05599
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:10:03 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 28 10:07:22 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05586
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:09:54 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA27431;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901280007.QAA27431(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, grog(a)lemis.com
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
Well, it tries its darndest to do so. If the system gets its
knickers sufficiently twisted I've seen it hang part way thru
printing the panic message. 'course then there are the self
inflicted crashes where an errant driver scribbles all over memory,
in which case you may not get a meaningful indication of what
went wrong ;)
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA05647
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:12:21 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jan 28 10:11:56 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05642
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:12:12 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA03086;
Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:58 +0100
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com>
cc: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>,
PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990128011036.2335D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
>
> SURE !!!
> I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
> line printer console ;-))
I have only one things to say to you guys; TECO.
(And besides, EMACS is just a bunch of macros for TECO, GNU-EMACS don't
even count... ;-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA07028
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:25:08 +1100 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Thu Jan 28 13:24:31 1999
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07018
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:24:59 +1100 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21948
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:35 -0800
Message-ID: <36AFD86F.A25AFE2A(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:31 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Yes, and it was almost 2 years between reboots. Otherwise, they were
rather rare, and I can't remember why. I have all the console logs
around somewhere under a pile, and if/when I uncover them, I'll look
through them to see what happened. Maybe I'll suddenly report it here
in 6 months--after my next reboot, err, cleanup.
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
>
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
> finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA09604
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:05:42 +1100 (EST)
>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Jan 28 18:05:26 1999
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA09599
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:05:32 +1100 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id DAA28920; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:05:27 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA14700; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:27 -0800
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:26 -0800 (PDT)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000(a)world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> > encourage you to do it, I suppose.
>
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe,
"Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA11549
for pups-liszt; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:50:45 +1100 (EST)
>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 29 03:54:42 1999
Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA11544
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:50:37 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (erin@localhost)
by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21996
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:42 -0800
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:42 -0800 (PST)
From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000(a)world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990128095053.21935A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Brian D Chase wrote:
> "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
> commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic
Yeah, what kind of sadistic, malicious bastards would create a *free*
version of unix, then port it to nearly every platform imaginable!!?!?
What could have been going through their twisted minds?
----------------------------------------------------------
"...and an eternity, my friend, is a long f*cking time..."
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
UNIX robustness
by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive
a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific
cases where the system did pretty well. The collection of MicroVAX II parts
I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP
routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0).
Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only
for hardware failures. (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the
disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.)
Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these
systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned
in 1990 or 1991.
Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA00311
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:09 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 14:38:23 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00306
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:03 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01836;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270438.PAA01836(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm"
To: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
> Norman Wilson
Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by
power failure.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA00561
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:17 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:12:57 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00553
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:07 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15671
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: UNIX robustness
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
At least it's a different thread... ;-)
I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
couple months after that the disk died ;-)
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA00604
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:15:26 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:15:08 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00597
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:15:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15701
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901270515.VAA15701(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without
reboooting. Then the power went out and spoiled the streak. Started
over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died.
Sigh.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA02469
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:26:08 +1100 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Jan 27 23:23:58 1999
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA02464
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:25:59 +1100 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19391
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:25:37 -0800
Message-ID: <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:23:58 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
power failure finally got it.
It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The
system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.
Dave
"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>
> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
> couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA02732
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:15:08 +1100 (EST)
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Jan 28 01:14:30 1999
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA02724
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:14:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30920;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901271514.KAA30920(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the
University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX
one) just for the *real* troff code. When I say "real" I mean the code
that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think).
We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think,
driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can
check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details
if someone is interested. -- Ken
| In article by alejandro gonzalez:
| >
| > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
| > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
| > the orginial distribution
| >
| > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
| > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
| >
| > Alex
|
| All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
| Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
| they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
| Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
|
| Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA03183
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:23:01 +1100 (EST)
>From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> Thu Jan 28 03:21:11 1999
Received: from spektr.eu.org (spektr.ludvika.se [194.18.168.68])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03175
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:22:52 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]])
by spektr.eu.org (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25728
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET)
From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>
To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.9901271816460.25417-100000(a)spektr.eu.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Thor Lancelot Simon < tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>...or vi versus Emacs.
What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
--
Jorgen Pehrson (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3))
jp(a)spektr.eu.org (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200
spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA03270
for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:42:12 +1100 (EST)
>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 28 03:41:15 1999
Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03265
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:42:04 +1100 (EST)
Received: from p2350 ([208.254.191.195]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net
(Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0)
with ESMTP id AAA5105; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:41:58 -0600
From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: "Jorgen Pehrson" <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>,
"PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi Jorgen,
----------
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>
> To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
> Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM
> What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
SURE !!!
I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
line printer console ;-))
cheers,
emanuel
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The
<is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co
<do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely. Ultrix never drive
every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS. It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS
of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA00284
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:32 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme
<oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr
The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased
with public domain trimmings to anyone. Calling it opression or anything
else is a transparent attempt to evade the law.
<supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o
<non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
<universally agreed to be unethical.
When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem. Copyrighted firmware
is not that.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20395
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:36 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t
<establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f
That is not the problem. You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu
card and that is unreleased copyrighted code.
<Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod
<updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba
<DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful.
Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that
they were grandfatherd. In either case by not doing that your potentially
liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit. Copyright is
a legal issue.
<UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM
Not an issue and that is not the rom image.
<The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and
<to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
<upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw
<upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff
<would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V
<UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin
<support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.
Not true. While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still
their ownership. Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts
are still quite available.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20389
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:29 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
the contents of this mailing list
by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca
My two cents' worth on the latest fuss:
It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete
proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve
the present problem. The real trouble right now is one or two people who
cannot resist waving their antlers around in public. We could eliminate
them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7)
to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7,
that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between
2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?). There's also a
genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI
peripheral devices for a start).
More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to
keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both
of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal
to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting
everything to everyone no matter how peripheral. (Which is not to say that
discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.) For example, I had a handful
of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent
postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them
directly to him.
To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who
once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio
if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail
directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public.
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20323
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:37:09 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 13:38:45 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20318
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:37:02 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01601;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270338.OAA01601(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496(a)krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999 3:50:54 am"
To: joerg(a)krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Joerg B. Micheel:
> > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
> > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
> You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split.
No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them
next week.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20369
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:03 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:
> I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
> PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
> software license.
Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
compressed and uuencoded.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19626
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:36:07 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 10:35:41 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19621
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:35:59 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA13940
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901270035.QAA13940(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> Johnny Billquist
> Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Yeah, it could. So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now.
> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all).
Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented
very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to
read;)).
Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let
the adaptor do the BBR <g>
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA19853
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:36 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 27 11:38:19 1999
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA19848
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:25 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <990126203819.2020009f(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that
it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block
replacement working passably. And there still remain
situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations.
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA19979
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:21 +1100 (EST)
>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:12:31 1999
Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19973
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:08 +1100 (EST)
Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30])
by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06573;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:16:51 +0800 (SGT)
Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175])
by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA23639;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:10:57 +0800 (SGT)
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00603;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
References: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
> development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
> the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
> 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.
Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20001
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:56 +1100 (EST)
>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:16:53 1999
Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19994
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:24 +1100 (EST)
Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30])
by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06726;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:13 +0800 (SGT)
Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175])
by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA24145;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:15:18 +0800 (SGT)
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00610;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
References: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
> oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
> my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
> moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
> software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
> supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
> non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
> universally agreed to be unethical.
As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting.
BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against
other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again
citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting
*BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it
comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate
it's value and impact.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20076
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:37:07 +1100 (EST)
>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:38:21 1999
Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20066
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:36:54 +1100 (EST)
Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30])
by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA07433;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:42:41 +0800 (SGT)
Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175])
by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA26506;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:36:47 +0800 (SGT)
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00622;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
References: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
> of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
> copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
> an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
> compressed and uuencoded.
With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite
willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the
purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely.
If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give
it a try ...
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20167
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:24 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 12:51:07 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20162
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA01515
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few
rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go...
1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to
UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and
their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the
above. It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However....
2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development,
including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers
should create a communications channel to target their own audience.
For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd.
To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus,
quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures.
Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and
announcements about this system can reach them.
In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these
mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and
announcements.
3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There
have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no
single `best' system.
4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone,
then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number
of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive.
If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their
list postings.
I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still
collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if
we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to
the list as it is now.
Thanks all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20302
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:30:14 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
^^^^^^
> > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
>
> FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
> Only VMS does.
See the line of carets up there.
BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would
readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even
MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19598
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:27:38 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by Johnny Billquist
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
here I go again...
> On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> >
> > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> > supposed to be driven.
I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
you have.
> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I
> want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
> about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
> a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
> which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system
> you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree
> about this.
No, Solokov isn't likely to please you.
> > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
> >
> > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
>
> Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
> respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more
or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for
raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones
relief.
Unfortunately he started posting here instead.
Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield.
The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people
actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA17274
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:20 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 06:52:00 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17269
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:10 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25319;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:01 +0100
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990126215000.23686D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
> is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
Only VMS does.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17935
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:31 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 08:23:31 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17927
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:22 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA13198
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi Johnny -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
> here I go again...
Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-(
> I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA
is what is driving Compaq/dec now.
> > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ...
Amen! Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel.
> Unfortunately he started posting here instead.
;-(
> Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have
their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17955
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:58 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:26:24 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17948
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:51 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05633;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262226.JAA05633(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999 8:25:12 pm"
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
>
> > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
>
> The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
> Why not have VAX ones too?
Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive
which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive.
This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute
the archive, and for other sundry stuff.
If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they
must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone.
The same thing applies to the main archive.
I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
software license.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18138
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:55 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:36:27 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18130
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:48 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05730
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262236.JAA05730(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Just my $0.02 worth.
I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to
give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto
the CD set.
I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if
they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most
popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent.
I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
recompensed for his work.
However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see,
and it will be added!
Cheers,
Warren
P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
Thanks.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18201
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:09 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:38:32 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18193
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:01 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05749;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999 8:27:15 am"
To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by alejandro gonzalez:
>
> Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
> distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
> the orginial distribution
>
> The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
> etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
>
> Alex
All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18317
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:50 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:44:19 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18307
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:41 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05790
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
Many thanks,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18975
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:28 +1100 (EST)
>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Jan 27 09:20:17 1999
Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA18970
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:20 +1100 (EST)
Received: from p2350 ([208.254.186.71]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net
(Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0)
with ESMTP id AAA10955; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:21:15 -0600
From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19990126232114.AAA10955@p2350>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi,
----------
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM
> I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly
to
> give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
> He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
> b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases
onto
> the CD set.
That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that.
> I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
> via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
> recompensed for his work.
NO problem with that.
> However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to
see,
> and it will be added!
Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only
wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part
of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing.
> P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
> a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are
my fault.
Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a
flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions.
Sorry about this.
emanuel
So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-))
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19191
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:18 +1100 (EST)
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Jan 27 09:46:16 1999
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19185
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:09 +1100 (EST)
Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk)
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1)
id 105IDD-0002AZ-00; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:48:04 +0000
Message-ID: <Nws0nOAIPlr2EwLA(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:46:16 +0000
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
References: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
In-Reply-To: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 4.01 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
>All,
> Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
>of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
>maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
>way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
>
>Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
>post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
>Many thanks,
>
> Warren
FWITW
I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier. If people feel
as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine,
that makes it easier.
Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts
on one type of OS or whatever.
Cheers
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19541
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:34 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 10:14:00 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19535
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:23 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29902;
Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:03 +0100
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990127010122.29540B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi Johnny -
Hi there, Steven.
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
>
> I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
> is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
> the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA
> is what is driving Compaq/dec now.
Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are
still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect
them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But
there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also,
some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is
the more developed, and supported OS.
While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
relying on a separate, manual program for it.
And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-)
> > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
>
> Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
> although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have
> their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
> posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
> tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".
Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be
info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any*
forum for pdp-11 stuff.
I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than
2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19584
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:26:45 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon.
Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then
we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its
buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the
necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is
the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer
to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to
add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig,
I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up.
Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost
every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close
4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD
ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special
"emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for
4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the
userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better
than pure Ultrix.
> But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.
No, this is not my definition.
> I
> want support for the hardware I own
This will be done if you are willing to cooperate.
> and features like mmap() and NFS.
Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're
> complaining about.
Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only.
4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse.
> You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
> of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release?
I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release,
it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe,
I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either.
> As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the
current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's
all.
> I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
> like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in
> the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
> number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
> did.
I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just
because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't
mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me
himself.
> It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.
Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and
other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds
instead of words.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
> by extension, Mike Karels?
Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against
him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm
assuming that he has nothing against it either.
What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
universally agreed to be unethical.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA17008
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:31:22 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> wrote:
> I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years.
1995 - 1980 = 15
1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an
actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements.
If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years.
> That
> is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
> such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
> You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.
That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.
Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a
contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he
earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in
preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal
maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e.,
maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions.
I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not
assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never
actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging
my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago.
When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I
was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on
their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal
maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If
you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its
maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so
that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words?
> And since the core team of BSDI today
> consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
> keep calling their work BSD ?
No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested,
they have no authority to bar others from doing the same.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16993
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:54 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
> You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.
But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I
suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and
will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been
using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly
decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using
it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in
full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is
still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the
Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer
version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to
modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of
becoming the new principal maintainer.
> > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents
> > of University of California.
>
> Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley
> License.
I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I
can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and
everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these
rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any
agreements that they could terminate.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15079
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:41 +1100 (EST)
>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Jan 26 13:20:46 1999
Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15074
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:22 +1100 (EST)
Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30])
by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA22623;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:25:09 +0800 (SGT)
Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175])
by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA07622;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:19:14 +0800 (SGT)
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA00541;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
> because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
> original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
> twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I
> suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and
> will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been
> using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly
> decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using
> it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in
> full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is
> still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the
> Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer
> version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to
> modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of
> becoming the new principal maintainer.
Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ...
I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of
people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted)
that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That
is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.
BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for
the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system
BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect
the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against
any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the
BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made
contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today
consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody
(including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15148
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:22 +1100 (EST)
>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:42:06 1999
Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15143
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:13 +1100 (EST)
Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232])
by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA00791
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14725 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> supposed to be driven.
>
When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even
run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I
want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system
you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree
about this.
> > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should
> > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> > set is horrifying to contemplate.
>
> Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD
> to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of
> arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like
> 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup
> systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe.
You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I'm just asking
that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to
distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix.
>
> > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
>
> Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As
I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
[...]
> First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and
> authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems
> Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could
> conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely
> confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that.
I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in
the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
did. But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it.
> Check out the Quasijarus features page:
>
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html
>
> So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less
> than a month ago.
It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.
Thor
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15170
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:12 +1100 (EST)
>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:43:58 1999
Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15165
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:03 +1100 (EST)
Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232])
by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA10337
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14928 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
>
> > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.
>
> But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
> because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
> original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
by extension, Mike Karels?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA15631
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:29 +1100 (EST)
>From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Tue Jan 26 23:27:15 1999
Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15626
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:20 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dizzy.cs.fiu.edu (dizzy.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.2]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA04796 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST)
From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518(a)world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
the orginial distribution
The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
etc..
Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
Thanks alot,
Alex
*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu
*********************************
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16980
for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:36 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.
That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even yours. BSDI has
no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents of University of
California. The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted
modification and distribution of modified versions. Incrementing the version
number is one of the most natural operations a developer modifying the system
can do. If I were to use CSRG's final 1995 code as my starting point, I would
indeed call my system 4.5BSD, and I would have the full right to do so. The
only reason I do not and cannot call my system 4.5BSD, 5BSD, or whatever is
because I'm tmachining the SCCS tree back to 1988, nullifying 4.4BSD.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14866
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:29 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 18:49:16 1999
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14861
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:21 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA05782;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:17 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id TAA94514;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 (CST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990126191916.A66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199901260840.DAA03267(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03267(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:40AM -0500
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 3:40:40 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
>
>> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
>> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.
>
> That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even
> yours.
You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.
> BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents
> of University of California.
Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley
License.
> The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted
> modification and distribution of modified versions.
Precisely.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA15026
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:54:41 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> encourage you to do it, I suppose.
You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
supposed to be driven.
> All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should
> a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> set is horrifying to contemplate.
Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD
to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of
arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like
4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup
systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe.
> Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
> History is history.
Yes, history is history, and I respect it as such. I'm not trying to abuse my
write access to the 4BSD collection and maliciously modify some preserved tape
image without anyone's knowledge. However, there is nothing in the world that
prevents a developer from creating a new version of system from an old one. If
there is an SCCS file with deltas ranging from 1.1 to 7.16, there is absolutely
nothing in the world preventing a developer with legitimate authorized write
access to that file from checking in delta 7.17. I am a legitimate authorized
Berkeley UNIX developer (actually the principal one at the present time). My
title as the principal maintainer has been legitimized and blessed by the
previous CSRG maintainer.
> Pretending
> to be an organization which doesn't exist...
First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and
authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems
Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could
conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely
confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that.
> [...] gets very little useful work done.
Check out the Quasijarus features page:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html
So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less
than a month ago.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14823
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:27:01 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
VAX EPROM upgrades
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear VAX users,
Due to the storm of protests, the method of distribution of VAX EPROM upgrades
has changed from the PUPS archive to direct uuencoded E-mail. If you require an
EPROM upgrade for your VAX in order to run a UNIX software distribution
obtained from me, please contant me via ARPA Internet SMTP mail and I will send
you the EPROM image, compressed and uuencoded. I currently have the images for
KA650-B V1.2 and KA42 SCSI/MFM daughterboard.
The VAX odds and ends directory in the PUPS archive will still contain the
soft-loaded microcode files and booters, which have already been freely
distributed with different VAX UNIX systems (either 4.3BSD-* or BSD
derivatives like MIT's Athena-4.3BSD).
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14811
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:42 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to
establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for
every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our
extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run
on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is
below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on
730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also
be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I
haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early
microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs
UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is
UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note
that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage
of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those
who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of
people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work.
Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode
updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of
DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon
UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP
tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself,
but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to
be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or
look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA
and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the
older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software
interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't
support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how
hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you
think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather
than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's
much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface)
and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are
getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network
card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of
all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can
just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a
UNIX-supported DEBNI!
The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want
to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware
upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it
would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX
UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting
support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14104
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:26 +1100 (EST)
>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 14:43:10 1999
Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14099
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:16 +1100 (EST)
Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232])
by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id XAA13322
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:11 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id XAA02557 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.
>
> See my previous posting.
>
> > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> > from CSRG.
>
> You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
> CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
> existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
> tape was pressed.
>
> > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?
>
> You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
> on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
> point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
> matter.
>
> > Is it feasible
> > to do so now?
>
> I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
> 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.
>
> > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> > VAX, using the old VM system?
>
> I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
> definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
> kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
> porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.
>
> > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> > was the primary development platform, right?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?
>
> Yes.
>
> You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
> bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point
My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG". If I were into that kind of thing
I'd just join Jews For Jesus. My interest is pretty much purely historical.
> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
>
> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.
I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
encourage you to do it, I suppose.
All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should
a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
set is horrifying to contemplate.
Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending
to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
done. At least that's my personal take on it.
I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the
"True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were
you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon. But it's a silly
thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that
issue. Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP
versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs. Please don't tempt me with a discussion
of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about
_my_ religious hot buttons. :-)
--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14164
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:16 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 14:56:59 1999
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14158
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:06 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04633;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:27:04 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93369;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 (CST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990126152659.I66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com>; from Thor Lancelot Simon on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:43:10PM -0500
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
>> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
>> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
>> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
>>
>> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
>> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
>> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
>> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
>> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
>> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
>> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.
>
> All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should
> a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> set is horrifying to contemplate.
>
> Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
> nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending
> to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
> done. At least that's my personal take on it.
Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA14191
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:14 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 15:01:02 1999
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14186
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:04 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04650;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93393;
Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image)
Message-ID: <19990126153102.J66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199901260450.XAA03161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901260450.XAA03161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:50:33PM -0500
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK?
I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that
there are laws relating to proprietary code. It's not practical to
break these laws, no matter what you may think of them.
> One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest
> available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX
> system.
Fine. Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode. I'd guess
that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses. But don't
endanger others with your views on legality.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA14415
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:56 +1100 (EST)
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Wed Jan 13 16:13:50 1999
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [209.210.251.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA14409
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:47 +1100 (EST)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA16989;
Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:25:39 -0800 (PST)
X-SMTP: helo rick from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac2-110.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.110 user=rickgc
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990112221347.006a9f90(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:13:50 -0800
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
No problem!
At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
>
>Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
>of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick
Copeland
>has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.
>
>Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
>_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If
not,
>please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
>take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).
>
>Michael Sokolov
>TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
>4.3BSD-* Maintainer
>Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
>Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
>ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
>TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
>Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA14579
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:31:22 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.
See my previous posting.
> What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> from CSRG.
You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
tape was pressed.
> Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?
You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
matter.
> Is it feasible
> to do so now?
I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.
> I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> VAX, using the old VM system?
I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.
> I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> was the primary development platform, right?
Yes.
> Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?
Yes.
You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point
in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.
BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned
this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous
maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and
architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and
others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private
E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected.
I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain
what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear
about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line.
The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this:
V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD
(UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael
Sokolov).
For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are
several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True
UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is
because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the
True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s
UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating
from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the
torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of
December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm
carrying it into the next millennium.
Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13519
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:20 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
<
<The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
<not have VAX ones too?
Yes but, not copyrighted firmware. The KA650 B V1.2 firmware is not
released or granted publication that I know of and the straw horse of,
"well, PDP-xx is here" is not the issue.
<BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Jus
<look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at t
There is a distinct difference between DEC contributed and the KA650 rom
image.
<fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's
<copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX an
<Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our gro
<(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care
<Ancient DEC.
It is neither the point nor applicable. It's a specious arguement in an
attempt to not respect the copyrighted firmware on the CPU card that is
not distributed. The fact that DEC and unix go well is not the issue
either.
<And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally
<recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which desp
<its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BS
<distributions).
I doubt that the KA650 bootrom image was in there as original distribution.
If the system is a KA650 it would be available on the system and if it is
not it's meaningless. My comment earlier was directly and specifically
aimed at the KA650 B V1.2 Eprom image.
The problem is that failure to respect the copyrights and ownerships of
any code, especially firmware could lead to vendors taking a future
hostile stance to the work of PUPS. That would be very undesireable.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14043
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:37:02 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.4BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland
has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.
Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not,
please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13461
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:09:52 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. Why
not have VAX ones too?
But if too many people start complaining, I'll just move the entire odds-ends
directory to one of my friend's _anonymous_ FTP site.
BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Just
look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at the
fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's
copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX and
Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our group
(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care for
Ancient DEC.
And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally
recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which despite
its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BSD
distributions).
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA13004
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:35 +1100 (EST)
>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Tue Jan 26 11:21:38 1999
Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12999
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:27 +1100 (EST)
Received: from p2350 ([208.250.164.80]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net
(Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0)
with ESMTP id AAA24603 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>;
Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:22:21 -0600
From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: 4.4BSD
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:38 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi all,
why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
cheers,
emanuel
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13171
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:32 +1100 (EST)
>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 12:05:12 1999
Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13165
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:22 +1100 (EST)
Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232])
by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id VAA17162
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id VAA23416 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990125210512.A22884(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>; from emanuel stiebler on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> Hi all,
> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
>
> cheers,
> emanuel
It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.
What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
from CSRG.
Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? Is it feasible
to do so now? I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
VAX, using the old VM system? I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
was the primary development platform, right? Had the LBL SPARC port
been integrated?
--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13220
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:38 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware
<collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive.
Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA12960
for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:11:38 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware
collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
26 years, 3 months
- 1
- 0
DEC odds and ends
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just created a new directory in the 4BSD area of the PUPS archive,
Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends.
This directory contains various DEC odds and ends: microcodes, ROM images,
diags, VMS/Ultrix booters and bits, etc.
The following items are currently available:
rabads.core Ultrix rabads program, pure core version for putting onto
console media and loading via console commands.
rabads.a.out Ultrix rabads program, a.out version for putting onto a UNIX
filesystem and loading via UNIX boot.
scsimfm.bin EPROM image from the SCSI/MFM daughterboard for KA42.
This list is certain to grow very soon.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Quasijarus Project WWW page set update and change in passwd plans
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page set, adding the features
page listing all features added to the master source tree since the currently
shipping release. You can find this new page at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html
I have also changed my plans regarding the shadow and shared passwords. See:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/passwd.html
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Old pic of ken and dmr
by Warren Toomey
In article by Tom Ivar Helbekkmo:
> Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:
>
> > Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
> > Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970.
>
> That's neat! I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson
> color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the
> expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it
> on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my
> ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?
Dennis is the one, bearded, on the left. Ken is sitting at the
terminal.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA21478
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:57:09 +1100 (EST)
>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Fri Jan 22 08:56:42 1999
Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21473
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:56:59 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from cdl@localhost)
by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA16254;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199901212256.OAA16254(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST)
>
> In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> >
> > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> >
> > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
> > get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
>
> The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte
> records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for
> Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you
> giving to the emulator?
But the tape image also contains bootstraps for two kinds of tape drives
in the first 100 blocks. Followed by 3 x 4000-block RK05 images. More
than this I don't remember offhand, but I do have the "Setting up Unix"
document on a bookshelf somewhere in another office.
> P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in
> Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in
> Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz,
> unless you really do want to install V6 from tape.
The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from
tape is probably pretty small. But I am one of them, for better or worse.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA21792
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:07:41 +1100 (EST)
>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Fri Jan 22 10:03:31 1999
Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA21787
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:07:30 +1100 (EST)
Received: (qmail 6007 invoked from network); 22 Jan 1999 00:08:09 -0000
Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115)
by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 22 Jan 1999 00:08:09 -0000
Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m103U3c-0002fpC; Fri, 22 Jan 99 11:02 AEDT
Received: from localhost (dave@localhost)
by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id LAA04565
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:31 +1100
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:31 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
X-Sender: dave@fgh
To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <199901212256.OAA16254(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221102270.3559-100000@fgh>
X-No-Archive: Yes
X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk"
X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote:
> The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from
> tape is probably pretty small. But I am one of them, for better or worse.
Me too :-) But I've long since forgotten the details...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA21973
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:31:53 +1100 (EST)
>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 22 10:36:01 1999
Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21968
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:31:44 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (erin@localhost)
by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA01606
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:36:01 -0800
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:36:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Memory Management
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
range somewhere)?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA22017
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:38:06 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jan 22 10:39:04 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22012
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:37:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA11544
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:39:04 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901220039.LAA11544(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:39:04 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
Here is how to install 6th Edition from the tape image v6.tape.gz
in Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6, onto Bob Supnik's emulator 2.3d:
I found makesimtape.c in Trees/2.11BSD/usr/src/sys/pdpstand in the
PUPS Archive.
Warren
/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ls -l
total 14822
-rwx------ 1 wkt wheel 6018 Jan 22 11:18 makesimtape
-rwx------ 1 wkt wheel 117728 Jan 11 14:02 pdp
-rw------- 1 wkt wheel 42 Jan 22 11:27 v6
-r-------- 1 wkt wheel 6195200 Jan 22 11:20 v6.tape
-r-------- 1 wkt wheel 2494464 Jan 15 14:14 v6root
-rw------- 1 wkt wheel 14 Jan 22 11:23 z
/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat z # Input to makesimtape
v6.tape 1
* 1
/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./makesimtape -i z -o v6tape
v6.tape: block 0, file 0
# Output is file v6tape, not shown
/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat v6 # Supnik sim config file
set cpu 18b
att rk0 v6root
att tm0 v6tape
/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./pdp v6 # Run simulator
PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> id 10000-10012 # Toggle in boot code
10000: 012700 # as per V6 install
10002: 172526 # instructions
10004: 010040
10006: 012740
10010: 060003
10012: 000777
sim> g 10000 # Run above boot code
# After a while, enter ctrl-E
Simulation stopped, PC: 010012 (BR 10012)
sim> g 0 # Restart CPU at location 0
=tmrk
disk offset # Follow instructions as per
0 # V6 install notes
tape offset
100
count
1
=tmrk
disk offset
1
tape offset
101
count
3999
= # Enter ctrl-E
Simulation stopped, PC: 137274 (TSTB @#177560)
sim> b rk # Boot RK device 0
@rkunix # Choose correct kernel image
login: root
# ls -l
total 244
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 1104 May 14 00:47 bin
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 1824 Aug 14 22:04 dev
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 496 Oct 10 12:29 etc
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root 29074 Oct 10 12:28 hpunix
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 464 May 13 23:35 lib
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 32 May 13 20:01 mnt
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root 28836 Oct 10 12:22 rkunix
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root 29020 Oct 10 12:25 rpunix
drwxrwxrwx 2 bin 272 Jul 18 09:19 tmp
-rw-rw-rw- 1 root 28684 Jul 18 09:18 unix
drwxrwxr-x 14 bin 224 May 13 20:16 usr
# sync
# # Enter ctrl-E again
Simulation stopped, PC: 016022 (SOB R4,15746)
sim> q
Goodbye
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA22539
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:22:41 +1100 (EST)
>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Fri Jan 22 13:18:36 1999
Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA22534
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:22:33 +1100 (EST)
Received: (qmail 9283 invoked from network); 22 Jan 1999 03:23:13 -0000
Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115)
by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 22 Jan 1999 03:23:13 -0000
Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m103X6K-0002fpC; Fri, 22 Jan 99 14:17 AEDT
Received: from localhost (dave@localhost)
by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id OAA06957; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:18:37 +1100
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:18:36 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
X-Sender: dave@fgh
To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Memory Management
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221417120.3559-100000@fgh>
X-No-Archive: Yes
X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk"
X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Erin W. Corliss wrote:
> The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
> scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
> management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
> segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
> range somewhere)?
I'll check my PDP-11 manuals when I get home; if I have a spare one I'll
send it to you. What was the model again? An 11/70 or something?
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA23450
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:13:47 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
UNIX V6.TAPE
by alejandro gonzalez
Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
Any help would be appreciated.
*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu
*********************************
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA16173
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:14:40 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 08:15:24 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16167
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:14:27 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA08028;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901202215.JAA08028(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901201708340.26596-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999 5:10:51 pm"
To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by alejandro gonzalez:
>
> Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA16308
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:46:46 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 08:47:37 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16298
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:46:32 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA08078;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:47:37 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901202247.JAA08078(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Early UNIX dates
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:47:37 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
After some reading though papers and books, I've come up with the
following brief timeline of very early UNIX development. I just thought
some of you might find it interesting.
Warren
Early dates of UNIX Development
As accurately as we can tell, anyway! References given where possible.
1969
Unknown: Ken creates `Space Travel'. It was first written on Multics,
then transliterated into Fortran for GECOS, then Ken and
Dennis rewrote Space Travel to run on the PDP-7
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]
Mid-year: Bell Labs withdraws from the Multics project
[QCU pg 8]
April, May, June: Ken is interested in writing a file system
[QCU pg 8]
Mid-year: Ken brings the file system to life on the PDP-7 in a month
[QCU pg 10]
Unknown: Ken develops the B language
[QCU pg 34],
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]
1970
Unknown: Peter Neumann coins the term `Unics', which is
subsequently changed to `Unix'
[QCU pg 9]
Unknown: Alternatively, Brian Kernighan suggests the name `Unix'
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]
Mid-year: The PDP-11/20 is purchased, with no disk drives
[QCU pg 35],
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]
3 months later: The disks arrive
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]
Unknown: Ken recodes the Unix kernel and some commands in PDP-11
assembly code
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]
1971
January-March: PDP-11 version largely rewritten during this period
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html]
February: PDP-11 Unix beccomes ``operational''
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]
Unknown: Dennis extends B to be NB
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]
Spring: roff rewritten in PDP-11 assembler language, starting from
the PDP-7 version that had been transliterated from
McIlroy's BCPL version on Multics, which had in turn been
inspired by J. Saltzer's runoff program on CTSS
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]
November: First Edition manuals were published
[QCU pg 43]
1972
January: The Labs issues a technical memorandum, written by Ken,
describing the B language on the PDP-11
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html]
March: First manual for cc(1)
[QCU pg 48]
March: UNIX is running on at least 5 PDP-11/20s
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html]
June: DEC starts to ship the PDP-11/45. The Labs purchases one
sonn after this
[http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/11model.html]
June: Second Edition manuals were published. 10 UNIX installations
[QCU pg 43]
Unknown: Ken adds pipes to the assembly-language version of the kernel
[QCU pg 51],
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]
1973
January: the `nsys' kernel in the PUPS archive, written in C
[timestamps on the files]
February: Third Edition manuals were published. 16 UNIX installations
[QCU pg 43]
Kernel is still the assembly-language version
[private email from dmr dated 7 Jan 1999]
September: The C version of the kernel is adopted over the
assembly-language version
[private email from dmr dated 18 Jan 1999]
October: First UNIX paper, presented by Ken at the Fourth
ACM Symposium on Operating Systems Principles
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]
November: Fourth Edition manuals were published
[QCU pg 43]
1974
June: Fifth Edition manuals were published
[QCU pg 43]
July: Ken's SOSP published in Communications of the ACM, 17, No. 7
[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA16677
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:59:04 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 21 10:58:47 1999
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16672
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:58:54 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA13907;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:48 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id LAA18399;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:47 +1030 (CST)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:47 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr
Message-ID: <19990121112846.N15785(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>; from Mike Jenkins on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:49:27AM -0600
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wednesday, 20 January 1999 at 10:49:27 -0600, Mike Jenkins wrote:
>> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg
>
> There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page:
>
> http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html
>
> The URL for the gif is:
>
> http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif
The original .jpeg could do with re-saving; with xv you can get it
down to 10% of the original volume.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA16767
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:28:50 +1100 (EST)
>From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Thu Jan 21 11:28:31 1999
Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16762
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:28:41 +1100 (EST)
Received: from sdb1.cs.fiu.edu (sdb1.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.15]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA07861; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)
From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <199901202215.JAA08028(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
Thanks for the help,
Alex
*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu
*********************************
On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> >
> > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at:
>
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html
>
> Cheers,
> Warren
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA17122
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:09 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 13:50:59 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA17117
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:00 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA09253;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901210350.OAA09253(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999 8:28:31 pm"
To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST)
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by alejandro gonzalez:
>
> Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
>
> I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
> get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte
records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for
Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you
giving to the emulator?
Thanks,
Warren
P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in
Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in
Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz,
unless you really do want to install V6 from tape.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA17833
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:42 +1100 (EST)
>From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Jan 21 15:23:56 1999
Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17827
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:30 +1100 (EST)
Received: from athene.nhh.no (athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16])
by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28828;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:28:18 +0100 (CET)
Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost)
by athene.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA03794;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:20:14 +0100 (CET)
Received: (from tih@localhost)
by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07716;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:23:58 +0100 (CET)
To: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu>
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
References: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:23:56 +0100
In-Reply-To: alejandro gonzalez's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)"
Message-ID: <8667a1ci6r.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 19.34
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> writes:
> I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when
> I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
You're following the wrong instructions. :-) Or, at least, you're
taking them too literally. You're trying to use the tape the way it
would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it
into disk images under the host UNIX. Looking in my V6 directory,
I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote,
in a text file accompanying the tape image:
"This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent
to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the
first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr
RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image."
So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was
to run these commands under the host UNIX:
% gunzip v6.tape.gz
% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100
% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100
% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100
Then, I made a script file for the simulator:
% cat > v6.script
attach rk0 V6.root.rk05
attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05
attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05
boot rk0
^d
%
...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus:
% pdp11 v6.script
PDP-11 simulator V2.3
@unix
login:
I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to
mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall. You'll figure it out.
Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt
the kernel from sources on it. Fun!
Good luck!
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA17828
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:34 +1100 (EST)
>From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Jan 21 15:28:07 1999
Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17821
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:22 +1100 (EST)
Received: from athene.nhh.no (athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16])
by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28825;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:28:17 +0100 (CET)
Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost)
by athene.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA03795;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:20:14 +0100 (CET)
Received: (from tih@localhost)
by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07720;
Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:28:10 +0100 (CET)
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr
References: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:28:07 +0100
In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)"
Message-ID: <863e55chzs.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 19.34
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:
> Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
> Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970.
That's neat! I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson
color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the
expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it
on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my
ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA19503
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:20:54 +1100 (EST)
>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Fri Jan 22 01:19:45 1999
Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA19497
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:20:40 +1100 (EST)
Received: from p2350 ([208.254.194.59]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net
(Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0)
with ESMTP id AAA2583; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:20:33 -0600
From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Tom Ivar Helbekkmo" <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Cc: "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:19:45 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19990121152024.AAA2583@p2350>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi,
----------
> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:28 PM
> on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my
> ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?
Dennis is the one with the glasses & beart ... ;-))
cheers,
emu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA20117
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 04:14:38 +1100 (EST)
>From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Fri Jan 22 03:14:02 1999
Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA20112
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 04:14:24 +1100 (EST)
Received: from sdb1.cs.fiu.edu (sdb1.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.15]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA04037; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:02 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:02 -0500 (EST)
From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu>
To: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <8667a1ci6r.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901211213500.18250-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Thanks a lot. It works now.
*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu
*********************************
On 21 Jan 1999, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote:
> alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> writes:
>
> > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when
> > I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
>
> You're following the wrong instructions. :-) Or, at least, you're
> taking them too literally. You're trying to use the tape the way it
> would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it
> into disk images under the host UNIX. Looking in my V6 directory,
> I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote,
> in a text file accompanying the tape image:
>
> "This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent
> to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the
> first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
> 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr
> RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image."
>
> So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was
> to run these commands under the host UNIX:
>
> % gunzip v6.tape.gz
> % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100
> % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100
> % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100
>
> Then, I made a script file for the simulator:
>
> % cat > v6.script
> attach rk0 V6.root.rk05
> attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05
> attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05
> boot rk0
> ^d
> %
>
> ...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus:
>
> % pdp11 v6.script
> PDP-11 simulator V2.3
> @unix
> login:
>
> I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to
> mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall. You'll figure it out.
>
> Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt
> the kernel from sources on it. Fun!
>
> Good luck!
>
> -tih
> --
> Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA20383
for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:22:49 +1100 (EST)
>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 22 04:26:54 1999
Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA20378
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:22:35 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (erin@localhost)
by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA30600
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:54 -0800
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: here's a dumb question
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121101819.30461A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
OK, so I was at my ISP the other day and after a talk with the owner I
walked home with a bunch of pieces from a microvax II, which I used to
completely pimp out my PDP-11/73... One of the new pieces is a hard
drive, which allows me to write assembly code with the RSTS/E Macro
Assembler, write them to the hard drive, and boot the system up in
non-RSTSish ways...
I'm new to PDP-11 assembly language, however, and I don't have a really
complete manual... The general purpose registers are all 16 bits.
Addresses stored in these registers can only point to the first 32K words
of memory. My PDP has a 512K words of memory. The only reference I've
seen to this problem was one sentence in one of my manuals that says the
rest of the memory can be addressed through "memory management". When it
says this, does it mean that there is a separate memory management unit
that I have to control to flip between pages or banks of memory, or are
there extended registers in the CPU itself that allow me to do this? I
crashed the machine the other day and I noticed that the monitor listed
some registers that started with M... Could that be what these are for?
(The computer claims to have 22-bit addressing, BTW.)
-- Erin Corliss
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel
by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Some answers to Warren's queries:
mknod(II) first shows up in the Fourth Edition; the manual entry is dated
8/5/73. (That having been typed in the US, presumably it means 5 Aug 1973.)
getgid(II) shows in the same manual, but with an older date: 3/15/72.
This is also the edition in which the documentation for stat(II) first
admits a group ID as well as a user ID.
Both my hazy memory (made worse by lack of sleep right now) and the clues
in the manual suggest that 3e/4e was the period when the system was rewritten
in C; e.g. 4e is the first to show C interfaces in section II, complete with
structs as well as pure byte-offset descriptions for objects like that filled
in by stat, though the structs are nameless, presumably because there were no
standard header files yet. Evidently the file system upheaval occurred in
the same period.
Reading the description of the 3e file system, I see it has been too long since
I've read it. A summary:
Blocks 0 and 1 are the super-block, consisting of
size of free-storage bitmap
the map itself
size of free-i-node map
the map itself
Block 2 begins the i-list; data blocks follow.
I-nodes 1-40 are reserved for special (device) files,
and don't appear in the map. I-node 41 is the root.
I-nodes have flags, a link count, a userid, a 16-bit
size, creation and modification times, and eight block
pointers. Flag bits inclode `allocated', `large file'
(the pointers are to indirect blocks), read and write
permissions for user and other, set-userid, a single
`executable' flag, a `directory' flag (if clear, regular
file).
BUGS
Two blocks are not enough to handle the i- and free-
storage maps for an RP02 disk pack, which contains
around 10 million words.
The 4e file system is more or less that in the more-familiar V6 system:
Block 0 reserved for boot block
Block 1 is the super-block: file-system and i-list sizes,
caches of free block and i-node numbers. The free-block
list is now the familiar chain of blocks list free block
numbers; the free-inode list is abolished because the
i-nodes all have `allocated' flags anyway.
Block 2 begins the i-list. I-node 1 is the root.
I-nodes differ from 3e in having a group ID,a 24-bit
size, access time instead of creation time; the `directory'
flag becomes a two-bit `file type' flag; group permissions
appear, there are three separate `executable' flags, and
set-group-ID appears.
No BUGS yet, perhaps because the code was new.
Notice how history repeats: 4e replaced the free-block bitmap with
a list, which made it simpler to cope with huge file systems but
harder to allocate blocks in a simpler order; sundry replacement
file systems in the early 1980s (Berkeley FFS, Weinberger's cheap
hacks in V8) restored the bitmap, because it's easier to pick a good
block when you can see all the blocks available, and because by then
computers had enough memory and disks were big enough that a large
bitmap wasn't a burden.
An anecdote may be (barely) relevant here. I remember once in the
late 1980s having a chat with Lee McMahon about group IDs, and how
they didn't seem to have done quite what people wanted (hence the
multiple-groups-per-process stuff in most current systems, and the
special semantics for the set-group-id flag on directories, and
various other features that have seemed to me never to quite hit
the mark). Lee told me that when Ken first put group IDs into the
system, he asked Ken what they were for. Ken allegedly shrugged
and said `I dunno.'
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA15137
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:49:52 +1100 (EST)
>From Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Thu Jan 21 02:49:27 1999
Received: from carp.gbr.epa.gov (carp.gbr.epa.gov [204.46.159.110])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15131
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:49:37 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from mjenkins@localhost)
by carp.gbr.epa.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08238;
Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0600 (CST)
(envelope-from mjenkins)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>
Message-Id: <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg
There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page:
http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html
The URL for the gif is:
http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif
Mike
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel
by Warren Toomey
In article by Eric Fischer:
> Congratulations on getting the nsys kernel running! I have
> a couple of random comments on what you posted to the list:
>
> > Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5:
> > ---------------------------------
> > 1, &quit, /* 26 = quit */
> > 1, &intr, /* 27 = intr */
> > 1, &cemt, /* 29 = cemt */
> > 1, &ilgins, /* 33 = ilgins */
> > 1, &fpe, /* 40 = fpe */
> >
> > These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE
> > to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals.
>
> I think this is backwards -- these system calls don't deliver
> signals, they trap them. That is, they're the predecessors
> of signal(), not kill().
Eric is quite correct, and I realised this after reading some comments
on the V2 kernel. The nsys kernel also has a sig() system call which
allows a process to trap an arbitrary signal. This is why the syscalls
above were removed: there was a more general system call available.
>
> > Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys':
> > ---------------------------------
> > 0, &getpid, /* 20 = getpid */
> > 1, &smdate, /* 30 = smdate */
> > 0, &nice, /* 34 = nice */
> > 0, &pipe, /* 42 = pipe */ !!!
> > 4, &profil, /* 44 = prof */
>
> This part seems really weird. Since it has fpe() but not nice() and
> pipe(), that would have to mean it's somewhere intermediate between
> v2 and v3, at least if the details in Doug McIlroy's "Research Unix
> Reader" are all accurate. And I *really* don't understand why there
> would be space reserved in the system call table for nice and pipe
> but no implementations of the functions.
>
> The other weird part is that McIlroy says that smdate() was in v1
> through v3 but disappeared after that. I don't have the v5 kernel
> source at hand right now, so I can't check up on that, but it's
> strange that smdate should be missing here if this is an early v3.
>
> Actually, on further inspection this must be a *late* v3, since it
> has mknod(), getgid(), and setgid(), which aren't supposed to have
> shown up until v4. (No signal(), though, so it's not quite v4.)
> That's still very odd that pipes would be left out, unless this
> version was crunched to run in an especially small memory or something.
>
> And yet, v3 was supposed to have been released in February, 1973, and
> this is earlier than that, so what are any v4 features doing there at
> all? This just gets stranger and stranger...
> eric
I've had some chat with Dennis about this kernel, and how it fitted into
development. The summary is: Ken tried to rewrite the assembly version of
the kernel in B (or NB) in 1972, but gave up because structures didn't
exist. Once B -> NB -> C and got structures, they tried again. Apparently,
the `new' kernel (aka nsys) was developed in parallel with the `old'
assembly kernel during early to mid-1973. Then, Dennis says:
I'm pretty sure that we didn't adopt [the C version of the kernel]
as the standard "production" system until about September 1973.
It is very likely that the real "sys" was still in assembler.
Pipes were probably added first to [the sys] version, given the
evidence in "nsys."
Dennis also says:
During 1972, Ken finally puts pipes into Unix at McIlroy's urging.
which would explain why there is a reserved syscall in `nsys', but no
code as yet.
I can't explain the existence of the mknod(), getgid(), and setgid()
system calls. Norman and Bob Keys, I think one/both of you have got the
old manuals, can you look through them and find out when these syscalls
appeared?
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA12788
for pups-liszt; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:45:43 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 20 13:46:41 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA12783
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:45:35 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA06481
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. It's at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA14984
for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:45:02 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
James Lothian's /usr/src tarball
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just uploaded James Lothian's /usr/src tarball. You can find it in the
Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3/James_Lothian_mods directory in the PUPS
archive.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
University of Wisconsin's hacked 4.3BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just uploaded the distribution images for the University of Winconsin's
hacked 4.3BSD contributed by James Lothian. You can find them in the
Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3 directory in the PUPS archive.
I haven't uploaded James' own changed /usr/src yet, will probably do it later
at night.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA06758
for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:07:24 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 19 12:08:22 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06753
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:07:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA02324
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:22 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901190208.NAA02324(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Co-authors for Unix history paper?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:22 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi all,
I recently approached the IEEE Annals of Computing History journal
to see if they would be interested in a paper on our efforts to find and
preserve the old versions of Unix. They said yes, so I was wondering if
anybody might want to be co-author. This is what I suggested:
> I'd like to write an article which describes the efforts to find and
> preserve historical material which is related to UNIX. This includes
> finding tapes, reading them, decoding their formats etc.
>
> The article would also discuss the mechanisms available for running
> these old UNIX systems: by using old hardware (and the difficulties
> of maintaining such equipment), by using software emulators (and
> possibly a discussion of what they provide).
>
> In other words, the actual history of UNIX and its influence would not
> be covered, but the `archaeology' and preservation of artifacts from
> the early days of UNIX would be.
Given that there are people on the list who deal with old hardware, reading
ancient tapes, etc., I thought they might like to add some input to the
paper.
I think the paper size is limited to around 25-30 pages, and has be formal
in tone. If anybody has any suggestions as to what should go in (or even
wants to write a section), then I would welcome some email!
Cheers all,
Warren
P.S I'm giving a similar, but much more informal, paper at a local
conference next month. The paper is at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Seminars/Saving_Unix/
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA08164
for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:33:12 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Quasijarus Project Status Report
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just finished SCCS-reconstructing /usr/src/sys. Amazingly (and to CSRG's
credit) the history has been preserved very well, and I have SCCS-recostructed
almost every file in the kernel. There are only a few lost SCCS files. For the
list see:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/sccs.html
If you know anything about these files, please contact me ASAP!
Also when I SCCS-reconstructed the /usr/src/sys/tahoe* subdirs, I had to take a
step back. In the currently shipping release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, these subdirs
are identical to the ones on the 4.3BSD-Tahoe+HCX-9 tape. However, in the
current master source tree they have been stepped back to the original
4.3BSD-Tahoe tape. For the explanation of this decision, see:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/arch.html
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA22468
for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:50:07 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jan 15 13:51:04 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22456
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:49:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA21707
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:51:04 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901150351.OAA21707(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Success in Compiling Nsys Kernel
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:51:04 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
After several days of frustration and enlightenment, I have been
able to compile and boot the `nsys' kernel source code on top of a 5th
Edition RK05 root filesystem.
The `nsys' kernel code corresponds to a time around the 3rd Edition of UNIX,
i.e. Jan 1973. Dennis Ritchie donated this to the PUPS Archive a few days ago.
I have placed the modifications to `nsys', plus some documentation, in the
PUPS Archive in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA22804
for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:19:14 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jan 15 15:20:12 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA22798
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:19:07 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA22113
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:20:12 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901150520.QAA22113(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Success in Compiling Nsys Kernel
In-Reply-To: <01be4045$e3b28080$f2681081(a)collinse-home.tyson.com> from Efton Collins at "Jan 14, 1999 11: 8:35 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:20:12 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Efton Collins:
> I wonder how long it has been since that version of the kernel ran? Could be
> 25 years. Surely that will now be the earliest bootable kernel bar none. It
> must give Ken and Dennis a smile.
>
> It is nice to see such interesting things continue to find their way into
> the archive. With the help of so many of the pioneers PUPS is fulfilling its
> charter very well indeed.
>
> E-
Hi Efton. I had been keeping Dennis informed of my progress, and a few
days ago he passed on some email from Bob Keys:
[Dennis wrote:]
Keys said (when I mentioned your tries)
> Ohhh, neato! Let us keep fingers crossed, knock on wood 3 times,
> cow-tow as appropriate, rub the rabbit's foot, throw salt before
> the sumo ring, .... and anything else?.....(:+}}....
Dennis then went on to suggest some debugging ideas, when I was stuck:
Astonishing. When booting it might be best to start
with an init that just does
open(something);
open(something);
write(1, "Hello\n", 6);
It might even be appropriate to try first with just abort();
to see if /etc/init can be read,
He must be out today, because I haven't got a reply back from my email
indicating success.
The `nsys' files were dated Jan 22, 1973. I definitely wanted to get the
kernel working by Jan 22, 1999 so that it was only 25 years ago, not 26!
I've also made some notes about the differences between `nsys' and V5,
attached below. Thanks for your encouraging email.
Cheers,
Warren
Differences in available syscalls between `nsys' and V5.
========================================================
Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5:
---------------------------------
1, &quit, /* 26 = quit */
1, &intr, /* 27 = intr */
1, &cemt, /* 29 = cemt */
1, &ilgins, /* 33 = ilgins */
1, &fpe, /* 40 = fpe */
These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE
to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals.
0, &prproc /* 63 = special */
For each of the 50 entries in the proc array, if there is
a valid process entry there, print the array index and the
following fields from the proc structure:
p_stat, p_flag, p_pid, p_ppid,
p_addr, p_size, p_wchan, p_textp
Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys':
---------------------------------
0, &getpid, /* 20 = getpid */
1, &smdate, /* 30 = smdate */
0, &nice, /* 34 = nice */
0, &pipe, /* 42 = pipe */ !!!
4, &profil, /* 44 = prof */
Other Differences
-----------------
/* 21 = mount */ has 2 arguments in `nsys', 3 in V5
/* 37 = kill */ has 0 arguments in `nsys', 1 in V5
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Quasijarus Project WWW page update
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have finally updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page so that now it's much
more useful. You can find it at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 11/730 question
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)McKusick.COM> wrote:
> I applaud your desire not to break old 4.2/4.3 machines.
> I would be very resistant to losing support for a popular
> machine like the 11/750. However, I think that losing support
> for the 11/730 would be acceptable.
You are not the first person I hear this from, and I wouldn't completely
disagree. However, it always pains me very much when a system really ought to
run on a machine and has all the necessary ingredients, but fails because of
some tiny nit. This is exactly the case here. The CPU is supported, the console
storage device is supported, all bootstrap scripts are already written, even
the IDC is supported, but the standalone programs refuse to load because of a
ucode botch!
Now, I did look more carefully, and the boot.730 program does fit into 12.5 KB
after all in 4.2 and 4.3 (copy.730 fits in 4.2 but not in 4.3, and format.730
doesn't fit even in 4.2). So I guess it would be possible after all to massage
up the Makefile and the ifdefing in the sources to make the 4.3-Quasijarus
standalone system build a small boot.730.
However, the objections to this approach are:
1. Instead of tidying up the standalone system, this would make it an even
worse mess.
2. In future Quasijarus releases I plan to retire the current standalone
drivers for U/Q and BI MSCP and make the standalone system call DEC's own
VMB for I/O from/to all MSCP devices, making it possible to support MSCP on
more than just U/Q and BI. However, this means that all big VAX users with
MSCP disks will now need a copy of DEC's VMB.EXE in addition to UNIX's
native boot code. It will also have to be a recent enough version, and I'm
sure as hell that the version that came with 11/730 is too old. A newer
version of VMB can be pulled out of almost any VMS or Ultrix distribution,
but the one I have seen was 40 KB long. Thus even if I manage to make a
boot.730 that fits within 12.5 KB, you would still need the 40 KB VMB.EXE if
your disk is RAxx (the most common type), and this obviously makes boot.730
squeezing an exercise in futility.
Resolution: I will pitch the *.730 programs and add a note to the documentation
that installation on a 730 requires a ucode upgrade that fixes this botch. If
someone asks me where to obtain one (or how to write one if it doesn't exist),
I'll redirect them to this list, as I have no idea. :-)
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
11/730 question
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I wonder if any of you has some input on this issue. As I'm preparing for
making my planned disk labeling improvements (making it possible to install the
system on a fresh unlabeled disk in a more or less straightforward way), I
first want to clean up some mess in the standalone system. One thing that
annoys me in there is that for every standalone program that's supposed to go
on the console media there are two versions built, a normal one and a "730"
one. The comments say that 11/730 has a microcode botch that prevents it from
loading programs larger than 12.5 KB, so supposedly all "730" standalone
programs must be smaller than that. However, right now all standalone programs
are around 30 KB, and the difference between the normal and "730" versions is
only about 3 KB, even though the "730" versions do have the MASSBUS and BI code
compiled out. Wondering if there is a way to make them smaller, I looked at
older versions, and guess what, even in 4.2 the "730" versions are a little bit
over the alleged 12.5 KB limit! That's right, 4.2BSD is the first release with
11/730 support, and its standalone programs are already over the alleged 11/730
microcode limit!
This raises quite a few questions. First of all, does the 11/730 microcode
really have this limitation, or is it just a hoax? If this limit does exist,
when exactly does it apply? The BSD distribution TU58 cassette always used the
full versions of the programs, not the "730" ones (the distribution cassette is
also used for 750s), and yet apparently 730s could be bootstrapped from it.
Maybe this limitation applies only to automatic bootstrap and not to manual
loading? And if this is indeed a microcode botch, are there any patches
available for it?
I would appreciate it if someone here can provide some answers to these
questions. I would really like to get rid of those "730" standalone programs,
but I can't do it if this would break 11/730 support. (It's my responsibility
as the 4.3BSD-* maintainer to only add features, but never break anything that
works in plain 4.3 or 4.2.)
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA13144
for pups-liszt; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:00:18 +1100 (EST)
>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Jan 13 06:18:13 1999
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA13139
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:00:10 +1100 (EST)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10534;
Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:18:13 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199901122018.MAA10534(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Subject: Re: 11/730 question
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:18:35 EST."
<199901122318.SAA04873(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:18:13 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I applaud your desire not to break old 4.2/4.3 machines.
I would be very resistant to losing support for a popular
machine like the 11/750. However, I think that losing support
for the 11/730 would be acceptable. It was a very feeble
processor (0.3 of a 780) and very few of them were ever sold.
We had only one at Berkeley (for porting purposes), and it was
so slow that we were not even able to pawn it off on the
undergrad CS organization when we were done with it.
Kirk
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA13915
for pups-liszt; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:15:54 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Confirming machine hardware.
by BeLFrY
G'day all...
I have a DEC-PRO/350.
I believe it is a PDP8.
Is there any way of confirming this?
Thanks.
Michael.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA11300
for pups-liszt; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:27:45 +1100 (EST)
>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Jan 13 00:26:39 1999
Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11295
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:27:36 +1100 (EST)
Received: from p2350 ([208.254.195.48]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net
(Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0)
with ESMTP id AAA22519; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:27:30 -0600
From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: "BeLFrY" <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au>,
"\"\\\"PUPs\\\" PDP11 Unix Preservation group\"" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Confirming machine hardware.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:26:39 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19990112142726.AAA22519@p2350>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi Michael,
----------
> From: BeLFrY <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au>
> To: "\"PUPs\" PDP11 Unix Preservation group" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
> Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:34 PM
> I have a DEC-PRO/350.
which is nice ;-))
> I believe it is a PDP8.
> Is there any way of confirming this?
Sorry, there is no way to confirm this ;-)) (sorry, couldn't resist)
the nearest "brother" of the pro/350 would be the pdp11/23, pdp11//23+ or
pdp11/24, because the use the same CPU. (DCF11)
hope it helps,
emanuel
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA12405
for pups-liszt; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 06:43:32 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 13 05:43:04 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA12400
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 06:43:22 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA09742;
Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:43:06 +0100
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:43:04 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: BeLFrY <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au>
cc: "\"\\\"PUPs\\\" PDP11 Unix Preservation group\"" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Confirming machine hardware.
In-Reply-To: <369AECFA.87A55C4(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990112204229.9487A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, BeLFrY wrote:
> G'day all...
Hi there.
> I have a DEC-PRO/350.
>
> I believe it is a PDP8.
>
> Is there any way of confirming this?
No.
However I can confirm that it is a pdp-11.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Re: EDU MAGAZINE
by Warren Toomey
In article by Lawrence Reinish:
> I am looking for several issues of 'EDU MAGAZINE' from mid-1975 to 1976.
> It was published by Digital Equipment Corporation. Any assistance would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Lawrence Reinish
Lawrence, I don't have any copies. I'll forward this on to some people
who might be able to help you.
Cheers,
Warren
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Earliest UNIX source!
by Warren Toomey
All,
Dennis has just passed to me the source to a UNIX kernel around
the 3rd Edition (i.e around 1973). He says this is the oldest
machine-readable UNIX source he has. I've just placed it in the PUPS
archive at:
Distributions/research/Dennis_v3
Cheers,
Warren
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
My mail screw-up
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Hello everyone,
Sorry for being away from the list lately, the machine I was doing my E-mail on
(harrier.Uznet.NET) has been down for several days, and I have to assume that
it's down forever. I have moved my mail back to my old address
<mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>.
If any of you have sent any mail to msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET in the past
several days, please resend it to mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu, since
harrier.Uznet.NET is probably down forever and everything in my mailbox is
lost. (I have recovered the missed pups mail via the archive.)
Sorry for this screw-up, but it's not my fault, I'm not that machine's admin.
(The admin is Stacy Minkin, whom I can't contact because his address is also
obviously on that machine.)
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16866
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:39:00 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 7 13:39:39 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16861
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:38:52 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA27637
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:39:39 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901070339.OAA27637(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: V8's roots? (fwd)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:39:39 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
----- Forwarded message from dmr -----
I also got mail from Norman Wilson today about the discussion.
This is mainly to confirm and fill out details of Wilson's account.
The Eighth Edition system started with (I believe) BSD 4.1c and
the work was done on VAX 11/750s -- our group did not get
a 780 until a while later.
Most of the operating system superstructure of BSD was retained
(in particular no one (even the indefatigable Norman)
wanted to get much into the paging code. Norman is also
right that the competitor was John Reiser's (and Tom London's)
32V descendant from another group at the Labs. In structure
this system had a lot to offer (in particular the buffer cache and the page
pool were unified, but it was clear that their work was not being
supported by their own management. It was used for a while on
our first 750 and also our first 11/780 ("alice", a name that lives
in netnews fame preceding the reach of Dejanews).
The big change leading to V8 was the scooping-out and replacement of
the character-device and networking part by the streams mechanism. Later,
Peter Weinberger added the file-system switch that enabled
remote file systems and prescient things ideas like /proc). Weinberger,
as Norman said, also did a simple-minded FFS.
The TCP/IP stack wasn't very important to us then and it has a mixed and
murky history. Much of it came from early CSRG work, but it was converted
to a streams approach by Robert Morris and subsequently fiddled over a lot.
Likewise, as Norman said, the applications (/bin and whatnot) were somewhat
of a mixture. Many were the locally-done versions, some were taken
from BSD in some incarnation, some from System V.
Dennis
----- End of forwarded message from dmr -----
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V8's roots?
by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca
The operating system kernel on the V8 distribution tape (which was sent
to less than a dozen places, under special license) was indeed descended
from one of the 4.1 BSD releases; I have a vague memory that it was 4.1a,
but I wasn't there at the time, and don't know just what was in each of
the intermediate 4.1s. As I understand the history (again, I wasn't there
when this part happened), when the Computing Science Research Center
decided to move its main computing world to VAX in the early 1980s,
they wanted a reasonably stable, reasonably fast system with paging,
and 4.1x (for whatever value of x it was) seemed the best available choice.
The only real competitor was the paging descendant of 32/V done by John
Reiser (who did the original 32/V port to the VAX, I believe), but that
system seemed to have lost the evolutionary battle and was judged a bad
bet.
It may help to identify the kernel in question to know that it probably
didn't have sockets yet, and certainly didn't have FFS.
The 4.1x kernel was just used as a base, however. By the time I arrived
at the Center in late 1984, a good bit had been added and replaced: the
V7-heritage terminal IO subsystem had been kicked out in favour of Dennis
Ritchie's stream I/O system; Peter Weinberger's simple disk file system
speedups (4KB blocks and a bitmapped free list, nothing more) and network
file system code and the corresponding file system switch had been added;
Tom Killian's process file system had appeared.
The commands in /bin and /usr/bin and whatnot had less obvious BSD influence,
and I suspect they were mostly carried over from the system used internally
on the PDP11s when the VAXes first arrived.
Norman Wilson
(six years in New Jersey drove me out of the country)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15731
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:29:31 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Twist of Fate...
by Erin W. Corliss
So get this -- Matt Kjaer, a friend of a friend of mine and the person who
originally got me interested in PDP's, works at the University of Oregon
computing center. He claims that if he can dig it up, the University of
Oregon has an original Unix license for PDP-11's. I'm not sure what
version of Unix it is or if it's even from SCO, but assuming it is, where
do we fax/mail/deliver/etc a copy of it to get access to the legendary
protected FTP directory with the source codes?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15372
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:19:53 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 7 08:20:25 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15367
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:19:45 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA19617;
Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:20:25 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901062220.JAA19617(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Twist of Fate...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106125635.20195A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Jan 6, 1999 1: 6:48 pm"
To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:20:25 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Erin W. Corliss:
>
> So get this -- Matt Kjaer, a friend of a friend of mine and the person who
> originally got me interested in PDP's, works at the University of Oregon
> computing center. He claims that if he can dig it up, the University of
> Oregon has an original Unix license for PDP-11's. I'm not sure what
> version of Unix it is or if it's even from SCO, but assuming it is, where
> do we fax/mail/deliver/etc a copy of it to get access to the legendary
> protected FTP directory with the source codes?
Fax a copy to me (the pages giving the license owner, the license number,
the list of operating systems covered, the list of CPUs covered, and the
signatures), and then get Matt to email me!
As per usual, I need to send back access details securely. A fax number
or a means of obtaining a PGP key will allow me to do this.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15403
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:20 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 7 08:26:54 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15398
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:12 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA19685;
Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:54 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901062226.JAA19685(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Twist of Fate...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106142501.20945A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Jan 6, 1999 2:26:32 pm"
To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:54 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Erin W. Corliss:
> On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> > Fax a copy to me (the pages giving the license owner, the license number,
> > the list of operating systems covered, the list of CPUs covered, and the
> > signatures), and then get Matt to email me!
>
> What's your fax number?
Damn, I knew I'd forget to put that in!
Warren: +61 2 6268 8581
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15593
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:00:00 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 7 09:00:40 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15588
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:59:53 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19815
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:00:40 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901062300.KAA19815(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Bob Manners: new email addr?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:00:40 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Sorry to bother the list. Mail to Bob Manners rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk is
bouncing, and I know he'd like to stay on the PUPS list. Has anybody got
a new address for him?
Thanks,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15622
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:04:51 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.
Will run my latest OS release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, like a charm.
> Tape Drive: TK70
Great! 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 bootstraps from TK70s beaufifully.
> Hard Drive: RA70
Also great! You are incredibly lucky here that 4.3BSD-* already knows about
RA70 and thus you can install 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 on this disk directly even
when it's unlabeled. If you had third-party MSCP disks, you would have to
install Ultrix first to label the disk. This is due to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0's
inability to install on unknown unlabeled disks. This limitation will be lifted
in the next Quasijarus release, which I'm already working on.
> 1 KA650 -BA
A very nice CPU, rated at 2.8 VUPs. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 fully supports it
(better than CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases). KA650 support is present in the
GENERIC kernel, so it will Just Boot (tm).
The "-BA" part means that it has bit 1 set in the second longword of the EPROM,
causing DEC proprietary OSes to treat it as a "single-user" machine. Research
OSes like 4.3BSD-* ignore this bit. But if you do want to convert your machine
to "multiuser" status, clear bit 1, set bit 0, and recalculate the checksum
(you'll need an EPROM blaster). This will turn your CPU into a KA650-AA.
You also have the option of upgrading this CPU to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660
(5 VUPs). KA655 is also fully supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, and KA660
support is coming soon (100% guarrantee that I'll get it before NetBSD does).
> 2 MS650 -AA
> 3 MS650 -AA
-AA is a 8 MB board, so you have a total of 16 MB of RAM.
Note, though, that -AAs are old boards, and they work only with KA650 and
KA640. If you decide to upgrade to KA655 or KA660, you'll need either DEC
MS650-Bx or third-party MS650-compatible memory. These work with all KA650
series CPUs.
> 4 DELQA -SA
Ethernet. Fully supported by Berkeley UNIX since 4.3BSD.
> 5 VCB02
> 6 VCB02
> 7 VCB02
QDSS video. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 should support this (untested), but since you
don't have a VAXstation monitor or keyboard anyway, pull these three boards out
and move everything else to the right (you can't leave empty Q-bus slots in the
middle).
> 8 CXY08
8-line asynchronous multiplexer (8-port serial interface). Not sure if 4.3BSD-*
has a driver for it (I haven't touched this area and left it as it was in
CSRG's Tahoe release). It has some drivers for DEC asynchronous multiplexers,
but DEC made a lot of different ones, and I don't know where does CXY08 stand
with respect to everything else DEC has produced.
Ultrix supports it for sure, though.
> 9 TQK70
Controller for TK70.
> 10 KDA50
> 11 KDA50
Controller for RA70 (or any other SDI disks you may want to connect).
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
Hmm, it looks like you have already been brainwashed by one NutBSDist. Please
don't listen to him. Running NetBSD is conduct unbecoming a PUPS/TUHS member.
NetBSD is the worst OS a VAX can run. Its code is a total mess, and its
"developers" are incompetent morons (I know, I've been on their list for 6
months or so). They have no clue as to how to write VAX OSes, and their list of
supported hardware is as skinny as their brains. NetBSD is extremely flaky, and
it's extremely bloated.
My authoritative advice to you is to run 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, my latest release
made two weeks ago (I'm the maintainer of 4.3BSD-*). It comes with 100%
complete source code, and, picture this, the entire system with all binaries
_and full sources_ fits in 75 MB! It's absolutely True and Pure UNIX, nothing
can be better.
There is also Ultrix. No matter how much those losers insult it, it's one of
the best OSes in the Universe, second only to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Despite what
some incompetent morons may say, it is not a "4.2/4.3 mix", it's 100% 4.3.
True, it has been interDIGITated by DEC, which makes it a little impure and
bloated (and binary-only), but otherwise it's OK. It is bigger than a
binary-only 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 installation, but certainly much smaller than
NutBSD. As for the DEC additions, just ignore them! Just because Ultrix
optionally supports Sun YP, Hesiod, and other crap doesn't mean that you have
to use it! In fact, it's already disabled by default! Just don't enable it,
that's all! When /etc/svc.conf selects "local,bind" for hosts and "local" for
everything else, Ultrix becomes indistinguishable from 4.3BSD! I can bet that
if I show you two VAXen, one running 4.3BSD and the other running Ultrix, you
won't be able to tell easily which is which.
Also some Ultrix-specific features are really nice. Take NFS, for example. I
will certainly add NFS to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus at some point. Also don't forget
that Ultrix runs on almost every VAX ever made. I often run Ultrix instead of
4.3BSD-* when the latter doesn't run on the hardware in question. In fact, this
is what Ultrix is best for: a fallback OS to replace 4.3BSD-* when it doesn't
support the hardware. Of course 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is the best OS in the
Universe, and you should always run it whenever possible, but when you can't
Ultrix is a very good fallback because it's so close.
But since you have a KA650, you don't have to worry about this, as
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 will run on it like a charm.
Best of luck with it. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 is in the PUPS archive in the
Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax directory.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14819
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:35:05 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
by Johnny Billquist
On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
> run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
Smile. It's a decent machine.
> Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.
>
> Tape Drive: TK70
>
> Hard Drive: RA70
>
> Boards:
>
> SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION
> ---- ------------ ----------------------------------------------
> 1 KA650 -BA
CPU
> 2 MS650 -AA
> 3 MS650 -AA
Both are memory boards. Don't know for sure how much. 8 or 16 megs apiece,
I'd guess.
> 4 DELQA -SA
Ethernet.
> 5 VCB02
> 6 VCB02
> 7 VCB02
Sounds like a graphic subsystem.
> 8 CXY08
Plotter interface?
> 9 TQK70
Controller for the TK70 tape drive.
> 10 KDA50
> 11 KDA50
Controller for the RA70 disk. (The controller can have up to four disks
attached).
> What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
CPU and memory minimum.
I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the
peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the
middle.
> How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
Turn on the power.
> I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
> a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
> If not, I am at ground zero with it.
It's a pretty easy machine to play around with.
> I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
> Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't
> have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
> What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
> Will a plain terminal work OK?
Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.
> What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
Protocols? That's software!
As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!
> What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
You can netboot it to get started.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA11143
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:54:54 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 07:47:55 1999
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA11138
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:54:44 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28061;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199901052147.QAA28061(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990105205913.2044A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Jan 5, 99 09:07:11 pm"
To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>
> > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
> > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
>
> Smile. It's a decent machine.
I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent!
> > Hard Drive: RA70
What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our
play purposes. Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might
want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too
choosy. A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box. A pair of
2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server.
> > What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
>
> CPU and memory minimum.
> I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the
> peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the
> middle.
OK. What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open?
Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes?
> > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
>
> Turn on the power.
I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything
strange in the callup from a dumb terminal. Someone mentioned setting
a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU?
> > I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
> > a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
> > If not, I am at ground zero with it.
>
> It's a pretty easy machine to play around with.
I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there
were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them.
He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes. If they turn out to be
unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good
boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps. If they are, indeed Ultrix,
would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such?
I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds
of things, as long as they don't get too strange. I don't think I
would like a VMS.
> Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
> The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
> RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
> know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.
Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end,
an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter. Would that be usable
for a console or is that some kind of printer cable? He thought it was
plain serial, but was not sure.
> > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
>
> Protocols? That's software!
> As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
> the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!
Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque.
That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew
which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring
everything, instead. Software or non-shake protocol always worked,
if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end. One of my friends said that
DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking
for sure.
> > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
>
> I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
I must rub the right rabbit's food today. Another friend gave me a DEC dongle
box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?). That is a good
find, or the right find, perhaps?
> > Any suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
> You can netboot it to get started.
My problem is getting it up to a network. My home net is mostly down
or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time.
Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes. Proper
netbooting on them is a bit wierd.
I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere.
That may be the easiest thing to do, practically.
Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common
denominator boot when all else may fail. That way, everything is covered.
What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or
backplane? I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it,
if possible. Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting
the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose?
> Johnny
Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}....
Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight. Now to feed the
Reddy Kilowatt meter man. I hear these VAXen things make him very
happy.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA11273
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:18 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 6 08:33:57 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA11268
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:09 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA12801
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901052233.JAA12801(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: V8's roots?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Just got this email from a friend...
----- Forwarded message from David Blackman -----
Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram]
You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but
i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD
version, probably 4.1.
----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman -----
Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis.
Ta,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA11605
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:36:31 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 6 10:37:10 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA11600
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:36:23 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15385
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901060037.LAA15385(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Apout: new version + freeze
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I've put yet a new version of the Apout PDP-11 a.out simulator in
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout
and now I'm going to stop working on it for a while. This means you won't
get these annoying emails any more :-)
Current version is apout2.2alpha6. The latest changes are:
+ Runs 2.11BSD binaries, including overlay binaries
+ Runs shell scripts
+ Can exec native binaries as well as PDP-11 a.out binaries
+ Has floating point operations
+ Still emulates V5/V6/V7 UNIX binaries
+ On a Pentium Pro 350MHz, compiles the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel
in 4 minutes 16 seconds.
+ Now uses u_int* throughout
+ Finally, a man page exists
Enjoy!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA12041
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:56:09 +1100 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 6 12:54:31 1999
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA12035
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:55:56 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA12954;
Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:33 +0100
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <199901052147.QAA28061(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990106033734.12114A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent!
I'd say so.
> What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our
> play purposes. Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might
> want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too
> choosy. A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box. A pair of
> 2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server.
Fit as in physically fit. The RA7x series will fit. However, only the RA70
as far as I know have a switch pack for setting unit numbers. Any other
type of drive will default to unit zero unless you have a proper front
panel.
All RA-drives will work however. Me I have one RA72 in the box, two RA90
and one RA92 lying on the floor. :-)
Also remember that VAX binaries are *smaller* than what you might be used
to see. This is a CISC.
> OK. What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open?
If you have blank covers, put them there. It improves the air flow in the
box. But you should be able to run it as is.
> Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes?
Nope. Just keep al the cards next to each other.
> > > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
> >
> > Turn on the power.
>
> I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything
> strange in the callup from a dumb terminal. Someone mentioned setting
> a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU?
Ok.
To boot the machine, try "B <device>", where disks are DUAx, tape is MUA0
and ethernet XNA0 (I think...)
If you open up the front you'll notice that the CPU fron panel cover has,
in addition to the connector for the console, a small display, a three
position dial switch and a two-position switch. If you look at the back of
the panel, you have thumbweel.
The thumbweel sets the baudrate for the console. There should be a sticker
beside it with the key.
The three-position switch selects power-up action. Language menu, boot or
eternal selftest. The two-position switch selects whether booting to
console prompt, or booting all the way with OS.
There are a number of commands you can give at the ">>>" prompt. Useful
is (among others) "SHOW ETHERNET" which tells your ethernet address.
> I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there
> were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them.
Try booting them.
> He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes. If they turn out to be
> unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good
> boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps. If they are, indeed Ultrix,
> would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such?
Ultrix is definitely not something you want to run. It's okay to have
around, but it's not that much fun. It's more or less a mix between 4.2
and 4.3.
> I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds
> of things, as long as they don't get too strange. I don't think I
> would like a VMS.
VMS is nice. :-)
> > Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
> > The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
> > RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
> > know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.
>
> Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end,
> an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter. Would that be usable
> for a console or is that some kind of printer cable? He thought it was
> plain serial, but was not sure.
The cable should be usable. If you have a VT220 or newer, the cable can be
used without any adapter at all.
> > > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
> >
> > Protocols? That's software!
> > As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
> > the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!
>
> Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque.
Ah. Intelligent opinion. Since the CXY08 is a serial interface, that's
your answer. (If the CXY08 has a driver for the OS of your choise.)
> That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew
> which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring
> everything, instead. Software or non-shake protocol always worked,
> if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end. One of my friends said that
> DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking
> for sure.
DEC has very seldom done strange things. It's rather the other way
around...
Most likely your friend might have heard of DECs refusal to use modem
signals for handshake, since neither a computer, nor a printer is a modem.
(And by the book they are right, it's just that most other people like to
violate this fact. :-)
DEC always uses XON/XOFF.
> > > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
> >
> > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
>
> I must rub the right rabbit's food today. Another friend gave me a DEC dongle
> box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?). That is a good
> find, or the right find, perhaps?
Probably. I don't know offhand what the DEC transciever is called, but I
doubt there are any others with the right kind of looking connectors.
> > > Any suggestions are appreciated.
> >
> > Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
> > You can netboot it to get started.
>
> My problem is getting it up to a network. My home net is mostly down
> or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time.
> Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes. Proper
> netbooting on them is a bit wierd.
Well, it isn't *them* you are about to netboot, but the VAX. :-)
> I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere.
> That may be the easiest thing to do, practically.
Maybe.
> Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common
> denominator boot when all else may fail. That way, everything is covered.
Well, if you have VMS or Ultrix, you can write out tapes...
> What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or
> backplane? I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it,
> if possible. Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting
> the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose?
Getting the dust out is always a Good Thing (tm).
If you are a hardware junkie, you'll start by disassembling the power
supply into small bits and check it out througly before reassembling it
and allowing it to feed the system. Me, I'd just power the thing on. :-)
> Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}....
> Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight. Now to feed the
> Reddy Kilowatt meter man. I hear these VAXen things make him very
> happy.
Nah. A 3500 is a small thing. Try an 8650 instead. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA12768
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:37:38 +1100 (EST)
>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Jan 6 15:46:58 1999
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12763
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:37:15 +1100 (EST)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26800;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:47:34 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199901060547.VAA26800(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: V8's roots?
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100."
<199901052233.JAA12801(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:46:58 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: V8's roots?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Just got this email from a friend...
----- Forwarded message from David Blackman -----
Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram]
You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but
i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD
version, probably 4.1.
----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman -----
Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis.
Ta,
Warren
There was a big infusion of 4.1BSD into the research group system
between V7 and V8. Dennis could give you more details.
~Kirk
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14605
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 05:14:10 +1100 (EST)
>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Thu Jan 7 04:07:15 1999
Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA14600
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 05:14:01 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from cdl@localhost)
by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA24704;
Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199901061807.KAA24704(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:07:11 +0100 (MET)
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>
> > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
> > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
>
> I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
For short runs of AUI cable (a couple of feet) you can cheat by using
crimp-on IDC connectors and flat ribbon cable. Frequently that is more
available than real AUI cables.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14757
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:27:50 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Why is csh `restricted'?
by Warren Toomey
I've got a questions that's been niggling me, and perhaps someone might
be able to answer it.
The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
/*
* C Shell
*
* Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
* October, 1978
*/
But my memory tells me that, back in the late 80s, people were saying
that the sources to csh were not freely available. And in the tcsh FAQ
(taken from tcsh version 6.00), I see:
4. Where can I get csh sources?
Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
source licence or better, you are stuck.
So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
Many thanks in advance!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08168
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:26:55 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:26:35 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08163
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:26:46 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA19409;
Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren -
> The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
> /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
> /*
> * C Shell
> *
> * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
> * October, 1978
> */
> Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
> source licence or better, you are stuck.
>
> So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted
because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
For a long time you either had a multi-kilodollar source license
or you didn't run UNIX at all. The binary distributions came a bit
later. Initially when 'csh' was being written you had to have a
source license. Typically you'd pay (if memory serves) $25k or so
(quite a chunk of cash in 1979) for a WesternElectric license, park
the tapes in a rack and send a copy of the license and a check for a
few hundred dollars off to UCB to get the software you really intended
to run ;)
You'll note that the copyright lacks the "may be redistributed ..."
clauses that we typically associate with UCB software. The famous
UCB style of copyright ("copyrighted but redistributable") came
later.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08185
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:29:51 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 15:30:25 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08180
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:29:44 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA11231;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 9:26:35 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Warren -
>
> > The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
> > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
> > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
>
> It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted
> because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
> you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
>
> Steven
I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and
the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.
What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
Thanks!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08404
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:49:27 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 15:50:06 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08398
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:49:18 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA11350
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901050550.QAA11350(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jan 5, 1999 4:30:25 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Warren Toomey:
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
> >
> > It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted
> > because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
> > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
> >
> > Steven
Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
Bourne shell in 7th Edition.
Hmm, I'll have to go and update my UNIX family tree now.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08434
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:58:07 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:57:01 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08429
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:57:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA19580;
Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren -
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
> AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and
Indeed they were. ALL sources were considered "contaminated" or
restricted - that's why for years and years the only 2.x (and 4.x) BSD
sites were universities or other companies that had source licenses.
> the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.
>
> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.
A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
(is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I
grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the
"sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline
applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>
That's why the SCO "Ancient Unix" license is such a milestone event and
is so important (perhaps more so than some folks realize).
Up until this point you had to have a US$100K budget to gain access
to the software we can legally obtain for $100 (no 'K') now.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08456
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:18 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 16:01:49 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08451
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:11 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11467;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901050601.RAA11467(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Contaminated srcs
In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 9:57: 1 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
> contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
> but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
> (is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
> had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I
> grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the
> "sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline
> applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
> I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>
>
> Steven
Just a thought: much of the stuff in 16-bit Minix was written by people
on Usenet and donated to Minix. The core stuff of course is owned by
Prentice-Hall, but there are some freely-available programs.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08490
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:10:15 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:09:48 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08485
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:10:07 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA19671;
Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren -
Quite a busy night, eh?
> > > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
> > > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
It might also be a good time to clarify that the sources are still
'restricted'. Legally we can share the sources only with other
license holders. However the cost of obtaining the license is vastly
more affordable now than in a previous era.
> Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
> is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
> Bourne shell in 7th Edition.
Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not
completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08513
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:07 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 16:13:39 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08502
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:12:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11557;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901050613.RAA11557(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 10: 9:48 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not
> completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).
> Steven
No, from what I heard Bourne nearly started from scratch. I did have
a copy of some old Usenet news from John Mashey about the v6 shell; I'll
try to dig it up.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08520
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:17 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5 16:12:41 1999
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08508
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:01 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA06234;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:35 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id QAA79334;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:42 +1030 (CST)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:41 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <19990105164241.E78349(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:57:01PM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 21:57:01 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
>> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
>
> Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.
>
> A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
> contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
> but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
> (is?) contaminated.
There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
almost only stuff written by contributors, though there was, indeed,
some code which had obviously grown out of Seventh Edition code. I
think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
lawsuit. I took a look at one (kern_clock.c?), and confirmed that
yes, it looked as if it was derived rather than written from scratch.
On the other hand, there was nothing which AT&T (or the opponent of
the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could
have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08605
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:54:25 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:45:35 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08599
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:54:16 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA19977
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:35 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:35 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Greg -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>
> There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
> ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion
does lead to disagreement eventually ;)
> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
couldn't use.
> the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could
> have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
> were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.
I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's
how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time
was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.
The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
(FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been
a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original"
sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA08664
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:17:15 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5 17:16:39 1999
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA08659
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:17:05 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA06480;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA79676;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:40 +1030 (CST)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <19990105174639.G78349(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 10:45:35PM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 22:45:35 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>>
>> There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
>> ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
>
> Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion
> does lead to disagreement eventually ;)
We can agree (or is that defuse?) about that.
>> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
>
> I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
> small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
> time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
> files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> couldn't use.
Well, here's an extract from BSDI's announcement dated 8 Feb 1994:
> This broadcast message addresses many of the questions that have arrived
> in my mailbox in the last few days.
>
> Q: After this lawsuit resolution, is BSDI still in business?
> A: You bet. And we're shipping 1.1 early next week.
>
> Q: The press release was unclear, do I get to keep my current copy
> of BSD/386?
> A: The answer is yes! BSDI is not recalling prior versions.
> Any USA domestic customer whose support was valid through December,
> 1993 will be shipped the new V1.1 release. I will be mailing a paper
> letter to each USA domestic customer detailing their service contract
> status and verifying the V1.1 shipping address.
>
> Q: What's all this about `binary-only files'? Will BSDI continue to
> ship source code?
> A: For Version 1.1 only, BSDI will ship the following kernel files
> in binary format:
>
> kern/init_main.c kern/subr_rmap.c ufs/ufs_bmap.c
> kern/kern_clock.c kern/sys_generic.c ufs/ufs_disksubr.c
> kern/kern_exit.c kern/sys_process.c ufs/ufs_inode.c
> kern/kern_physio.c kern/tty.c ufs/ufs_vnops.c
> kern/kern_sig.c kern/tty_subr.c
> kern/kern_synch.c kern/vfs_syscalls.c
OK, so it was 16, not 13. And yes, they didn't say that these were
the ones, but I did look at one and saw the similarities.
> Q: I noticed your signature changed. Did you get promoted?
> A: Yes, we now have a full-time president. Me!
>
> Rob Kolstad
> President, BSDI
Well, some things just keep changing.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA10066
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:30:57 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:24:00 1999
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10061
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:30:47 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27132;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199901051524.KAA27132(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 99 10:45:35 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> > think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
>
> I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
> small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
> time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
> files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> couldn't use.
INet Dunce Cap firmly attached, in case my greymatters are vaporware....
I though I remembered seeing in one of the varieties of the 386BSD-0.0,
386BSD-0.1, FreeBSD-1.1, FreeBSD-1.1.5.1 (don't ask where, because I
really don't remember exactly), a subtree with a README and the original
7 files (yes, I counted them and it was 7). Now, that makes me want to
backtrack to find that and see what exactly was different. Vague memory
suggests it may have been in the 1.1.5.1 suite, since that was about the
time of the great territorial Unix Wars of old......
> I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's
> how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time
> was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
> a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.
That was where the shift from the 1 release level to the 2 release level
came in. Sadly, I was not really paying much attention to it all going
by on the net back then, since I was tied up in AIX boxen. But, I did
run across that interesting subtree and those 7 magic files, one time.
Now, where DID I see them......
> The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
> (FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been
> a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original"
> sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").
>
> Steven
I am glad it all came to pass. But, it is still fun to peruse the odd
bits here and there, and sometimes real history or insights pop up.
If all goes well, another minor bit of history may pop up shortly.
With the graces of Dennis Ritchie, I rekeyed in the V1 manuals in
roff source, in case anyone still has a model KSR37 sitting around
with a box full of paper, roff, and too much time to burn. It is complete,
now, but needs some editorial fixings since the OCR came through rather
bad. I made the suggestion that he allow us to put a copy in the UHS
archives. It may appear on his web page when the editorial fixings
get done, and hopefully, minnie, too.
Bob
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA10122
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:48:35 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:41:47 1999
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10117
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:48:25 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27177;
Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199901051541.KAA27177(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST)
Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.
Tape Drive: TK70
Hard Drive: RA70
Boards:
SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION
---- ------------ ----------------------------------------------
1 KA650 -BA
2 MS650 -AA
3 MS650 -AA
4 DELQA -SA
5 VCB02
6 VCB02
7 VCB02
8 CXY08
9 TQK70
10 KDA50
11 KDA50
12 (empty)
What are the above boards, for reference?
What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
If not, I am at ground zero with it.
I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't
have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
Will a plain terminal work OK?
What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Bob Keys
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Ancient SunOS source
by Erin W. Corliss
On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
> sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm
> curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm
> enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
> SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA02037
for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:53:45 +1100 (EST)
>From Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> Mon Jan 4 07:52:16 1999
Received: from trantor.cosmic.com (xensei-PPP-0227.xensei.com [207.31.197.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02032
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:53:33 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from mirian@localhost)
by trantor.cosmic.com (8.8.7/8.8.4)
id QAA18338; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:52:17 -0500
From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com>
To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103134337.31034A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com
Organization: The Cosmic Computing Corporation of Alpha Centauri
Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500
In-Reply-To: "Erin W. Corliss"'s message of "Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:48:20 -0800 (PST)"
Message-ID: <m3lnjk81nz.fsf(a)trantor.cosmic.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
"Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> writes:
> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
>
> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm
> > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm
> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
>
> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?
Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure... I'm just looking
forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS.
Call it nostalgia, or something like that. :)
--
Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
"There's a New World Order coming every minute.
Make mine extra cheese."
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA02089
for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:09:47 +1100 (EST)
>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Mon Jan 4 08:11:30 1999
Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02084
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:09:38 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (erin@localhost)
by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA31265
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0800
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0800 (PST)
From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: ...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103140148.31189A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify
the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52
drive like an array of six RL drives?
I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two
drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar... I
assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble
or modify the kernel, tho.
I also recently solved the disk image dilemma -- I made a utility in
Visual Basic that lets you examine, import, and export files on various
disk images. The disk-specific parts are in interchangeable ActiveX
modules -- right now I only have code for RK06 disk images with Unix 6 or
RSTS file systems, but the model is easily expandable to any
drive/filesystem combination. I'll put it on my web site if anyone's
interested...
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA02281
for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:19:04 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Jan 4 09:18:07 1999
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02276
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:18:38 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA29033;
Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:05 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA70032;
Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030 (CST)
Message-ID: <19990104094807.X66110(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Yet Another Apout Version
References: <199901031151.WAA26388(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199901031151.WAA26388(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 10:51:45PM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 3 January 1999 at 22:51:45 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm,
> The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing,
> and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop.
> I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in:
>
> ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
>
> Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was
> able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of
> the binaries in /bin.
How long did it take, on what kind of machine?
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA02475
for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:26 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jan 4 10:18:11 1999
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02469
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:16 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA18722
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:18:11 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:18:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901040018.QAA18722(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: ...
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
>
> Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify
> the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52
> drive like an array of six RL drives?
Not likely at all. Completely different controllers - the only
similarity between an RL controller and an MSCP (RQDX3 for example)
controller lies in their both being Qbus cards and disks are attached
to them. The RL is about as smart as a rock - it can't even do
spiral reads/writes (even the RK05 could do that), so there's code
present to break transfers up into multiple pieces if cylinder and side
boundaries are crossed. Also the RL is a "traditional" device in
that the driver calculates sector/track/cylinder and stuffs those
values into registers. With MSCP you have to build command and response
ring buffers, fill in a packet with rather badly documented values,
and then poke the controller to go look for its new packet. The
geometry calculations are done in the controller not the driver.
The only concept of geometry that MSCP drivers have is "how many
sectors does the drive have" (and even then that value's only used to
pretty print something when the drive is first accessed) - somewhat
like SCSI in that aspect.
Then too the RD52 is 30MB (sect/trak = 18, tracks/cyl = 7, cyl = 480).
The RD53 is ~70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb.
It'd be easier to add an MSCP driver to V7 than it would be
to try and do binary edits on the RL driver to support non-RL devices.
Ick.
> I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two
> drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar... I
They're about as different as can be. I think you were lulled into
thinking they're similar by the fact that most of the bootblock is
"boiler plate" (the filesystem search code to look for /boot). The
part that deals with the device is small but quite dissimilar.
The bootblock is the least/smallest part of the problem. All the boot-
block does is load /boot - and that's where you need a more fullfeatured
(but still not as full as the kernel's) driver. Then once there's
a standalone driver for a device in /boot then, and only then, does
the kernel become involved (at which time a full driver is needed).
> assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble
> or modify the kernel, tho.
The A.U. license provides full up source - no need to disassemble
anything - that can be modified to whatever extent is desired. That
won't solve the problem of getting a MSCP driver into V7 unless one
can do the development work using a simulator.
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA06247
for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 06:48:52 +1100 (EST)
>From Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Tue Jan 5 05:47:03 1999
Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA06242
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 06:48:42 +1100 (EST)
Received: from Corp.Sun.COM ([129.145.35.78]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id LAA18859; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:02 -0800
Received: from vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM by Corp.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3)
id LAA14535; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:01 -0800
Received: from vrytekai (vrytekai [129.145.71.165])
by vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA05888;
Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:47:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199901041947.LAA05888(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:47:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source
To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net, mirian(a)xensei.com
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-MD5: 7SK+ImZBXKMmaeX/roFFdg==
X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
These efforts aren't dead. :) They just took vacation with me, for the
last week and a half or so. I'll try to report some news sometime during
the following week or two, though with the mess of work that popped
up in my absence, I'm not sure whether I'd be that optimistic. :/
--Billy
>From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com>
>To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
>Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source
>Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com
>Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500
>
>"Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> writes:
>
>> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
>>
>> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
>> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm
>> > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm
>> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
>> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
>>
>> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?
>
>Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure... I'm just looking
>forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS.
>Call it nostalgia, or something like that. :)
>
>--
>Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
> "There's a New World Order coming every minute.
> Make mine extra cheese."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a
"Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Yet Another Apout Version
by Warren Toomey
Hmm,
The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing,
and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop.
I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was
able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of
the binaries in /bin.
I've even (nearly) been able to build the GENERIC 2.11BSD kernel
in /sys/GENERIC, but I get:
# make
....
ld -X -i -o unix scb.o mch_backup.o mch_click.o mch_copy.o .....
sys_process.o syscalls.o ufs_mount.o -Z hk.o init_main.o kern_prot.o
tty_pty.o quota_kern.o quota_subr.o quota_ufs.o vm_swp.o vm_swap.o
vm_proc.o -Z ht.o tm.o ts.o -Z tmscp.o tmscpdump.o -Z rl.o
mch_fpsim.o ingreslock.o ufs_disksubr.o -Z rx.o kern_sysctl.o
vm_sched.o vm_text.o -Z kern_pdp.o kern_xxx.o ufs_syscalls2.o mem.o
ufs_subr.o rk.o sys_pipe.o kern_sig2.o toy.o subr_log.o -Z -Z
-Z -Z -Z -Z -Y vers.o -lkern param.o
Undefined:
_proc
_file
_text
*** Exit 1
Stop.
# ls -l unix
-rw------- 1 root 195480 Jan 3 03:41 unix
Steven, any ideas as to the problem? I had to do two operations manually
(using 32-bit native tools):
sh ../conf/newvers.sh
/bin/ed - param.s < ../conf/:comm-to-bss
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA01186
for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 04:17:03 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Mon Jan 4 03:16:23 1999
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA01181
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 04:16:50 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm7-94.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.94])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA04342
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:16:30 +0500
Message-Id: <199901031716.WAA04342(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 3 Jan 1999 17:16:23 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Time machine
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
Have you ever wished to have a time machine? Have you ever wished to travel
back to 1988, to the time when 4.3BSD-Tahoe was the latest release and the SCCS
deltas corresponding to it were the most recent deltas? Well, at least I do.
Although unfortunately real time travel is still limited to the X-Files, I have
come up with a pretty good approximation, a time machine program. This program
turns the Universe clock backwards on a given SCCS file, pruning it down to a
given delta, specified either as an SID or as a delta serial number. The bulk
of the work is done by the SCCS rmdel command. This command, however, can only
delete one delta at a time and still leaves an audit trail in the delta table.
My package consists of a shell script and two C programs that compensate these
deficiencies. The result is that the SCCS file becomes byte-for-byte identical
to the one that existed at the time you have chosen, just like with a real time
machine!
I include this package below as a uuencoded gzipped tarball. See the README
file inside.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Enclosure: uuencoded tmachine.tar.gz:
begin 644 tmachine.tar.gz
M'XL(`)3,CS8``.T9:V_;-K!?S5]Q29TFSN+8DE]`TQ08DA8HT&Y`TWY*@U66
M:)NS)`HD'<];\]]W1UJVE*1MMB(QMN@`P]+I>&^2=^2[8,I'(N9/[A$`H-_M
M`O[[[7:;_@%ZGOLG\+L^4O2[G4&[WQETZ6NOYS^!^]2I`@=!'#^'9!KQV`2Q
MT`:,$HE],\.8L<*7$MEAR&IA",U?H2E+P\LTK,CM>8EWB4/QPW6J37OH_PWO
M7_U\^N[5_<KXSOSW/42Z^8^/O0ZBNH-!MYK_#P$?)AR,2#@D03@1*8<L"*?!
MF$,H4XV36(,<@2&BG$!/>!R##I7(#`1I!&8NX81E2HY5D.B#TG)@OQ?G,Z!`
MS>$$<GH(%`>1&IY&'&DE##D3Z:6<XMMP8467),HT7AQ`*@U$0O'0Q(N<;*:Y
M.F3LM5`H.)1)AMN:_5`0AJ1JEJ8B'<-N@EO?KE4H!1X)<XN9S`D]`)WQ4(P6
M-(ZH0JE(-L0R#(Q`3\%(*C<>G3$4::`$U["0,Y@$EQQ^GVG#0L4#@U:13W+R
M($I$:C&*?`1G)R=GI'N"*&UUNSTZ0K-4S@$Y1@MR&MJ^Q=@'7$EG*K6</Z;B
MDBMT=8A*3F&(`^>!BC">*`_&^#%UTFCW/R"O/,?E>BW'3%I&MI!3BZA:^I#H
M(`ZT^<T&D['YA*LB9NDD,IP4H`_@/I`?YD%J2-,IY]DAO,&=`GU"P<Y'H6,T
M<(%#%335V9M30!\U@S-\W<.P$8+\A(]+:5R)((9TE@RY.F"*$R.#=L6+AO/<
MRCR8"TR@(;I11DM1(88PPG#&"TNKUC08099(1-!(#<NH8<H%B4O)(**!<#@,
MIA[I2`\^F69*,HG>\F88[`2M$)CK&-MLD4\IJ<084R4NQL%.&.L]8VX9P];\
M@Q$1X/[M4F?7S:1(ILAE."/7CL@*8N8<9H)A3)F#LV&6\NB0G?*8&TNA<VL=
M4XH7,=.8W-KZ:XYQ6<T-%(7>GL5&'U:[\W\<2O7:/<GXSO[?\;Q5_3_P!STB
M[WN=:O]_"'@JTC">11Q>:!,)>3AYR=BE%+A#!2+>2_2XP<))H&`?'X_87ZPV
MRF9&TP?<%$W$E6H<L1K_0Y@]#Y^N&&[>N+8'(MT+U#C$!4V-+QL62>]'2V[[
MA+;\7K]Y^PKVM5O]]BD/\\>`^&-NTCO*(!;#A1:X%./2CPC'"1'Y<XQKTWG/
M\R^.&)*/P&H`6\?0@R]?K"+G_L5Y^X)0N\W=(M)SR&`7GCV[CE2[#5:K67]L
ME_HA+%/P*<KW:RO_4[I-#EE*S]D<6]X-0'MKU@8XAC:2U=`2?`R,%#DY_`0^
M<;A"K\:X+A>'>':(?2Q06V)6LR[$+R.9\=1Q\RX.8%NM%%I2',,O']^^)9LR
M#)]4.2V1Y?XO\^D0G_F*SYKH=E8=QZH8OS*_[C5^9<K;F7:)J:,?C3FF('G[
M`-<1'_.!!C:^;9E3'!-D&?]/[;9G4\`BEZ&>%$*=1W>UXRY#2Z7;WM&1"Z;-
MN\@L,E0EPLB<^]T+"A(E:V33E%[NIO,M2M]-:VVU_H[:/ZJ%UF&0CI9CMTF/
M"'9"V-&PLU_X1=L'\*S@$'I#/S3@!73NJN66S7?G8">;9LFQ=:CE41MB438E
M<IPEZVEB::UL.^%.[63>TD:%2;9G=2&-&DO&R[GGHE1B:KE>L9O\G`&9PNB.
M]M9+U?:.1O67W(E!*47N[/C;/%]*@.-5`J!=>0(0DN_>=,L56VM:G%^D;F35
M)6]2?HZP0]#<K0XVP=U[;E\1561$>,5MO]&FA7_3.UD%_P;RFOX^96!!-^CU
MOG[^.^AWEO6?U_7Z]ORWWZG.?QX$GFZUAB)MZ0E["KB9I6/7,8YD',LYM;FT
MSFCJ;C,I7`?O^O[5V89K'U<G+/9(A$?,GFP<MV9:M0@5MRR"V5ZUB+:(XCGS
M<6LB$]Y*M)S*6%ZV\@QM%6A*Y\I?'5`^RJX7SZ7J'M1]0-*LM>Y_ZG6'62US
MB&%A9HD]V^Y3*P]4(a)(D4/J.=-SE\9I%DM;H[S6FJ.A'7/49M.4LNUZQ\5B\=
M>J^Y%:5_QFUS20\OB8]*H#FZF]Z31$;0Q;X+A]7=.5/S3WHI54GEP_;[R;'O
M]']>O]W+Y[_O]?M$/NCWJOG_$+#Q_H^^%/JYK_9P_KHR+U\J?:,+N]Y=>:Z'
M6-5B1&/-R5_NL4G0*\NP4"Q86>PA;G0.5E.=:^=JX5OUT_^\'["\HS)O5^-'
M-XK\_6]4^:OZWK]K?5\LYUV);(.PMM.]KW4KU_OKJIR,?5\T%M6GFX%LIG`?
M2V7:5#R1ESQR)Z`Z5Z)<GY?2X<<J[OF$.MB]-4=2<;7:%C*M7#IOL/_;]/I3
M0045;`ZJ^__'#=7]?W7_7]W_5_?_U?W_XX3J_O]QP\;/?ZK[_^K^O[K_K^[_
MJ_O_ZOZ_@@>'ZO[_<4-U_U_=_U?W_X\7-M[_5??_U?U_=?^_L?O_OP%(*:`Y
$`$```/Z_
`
end
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA01508
for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:21:26 +1100 (EST)
>From Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> Mon Jan 4 05:20:02 1999
Received: from trantor.cosmic.com (xensei-PPP-0227.xensei.com [207.31.197.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA01503
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:21:13 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from mirian@localhost)
by trantor.cosmic.com (8.8.7/8.8.4)
id OAA17969; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:20:03 -0500
From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
References: <199812161520.KAA28340(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com
Organization: The Cosmic Computing Corporation of Alpha Centauri
Date: 03 Jan 1999 14:20:02 -0500
In-Reply-To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"'s message of "Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)"
Message-ID: <m31zlccgf1.fsf(a)trantor.cosmic.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm
curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm
enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
--
Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
"There's a New World Order coming every minute.
Make mine extra cheese."
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
New Apout Sim Version
by Warren Toomey
All,
Welcome to 1999, I hope you all had a good Christmas and New Year.
I've just released a new version of my Apout PDP-11 simulator at
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
The 6th/7th Edition stuff is untouched, but the emulator can now run
a significant number of binaries from 2.11BSD: /bin/sh, make, the C
compiler, most of /bin and /usr/bin. I've been able to rebuild both
ls and sh from the sources.
Although the emulated 2.11BSD environment isn't complete, its enough
to be nearly useful!
Cheers all,
Warren
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Bob Supnik Emulator and V6
by alejandro gonzalez
Hi, I am very new to the Old Editions of Unix and PDP. I got licensed
recently, and I have been using the Binary Distrubutions of V6 and V7.
I am having trouble unpacking the v6.tape on Bob Supnik's Emulator.
In the v6 installation guide it says to key in the
012700
172526
010040
012740
060003
000777
Using the Emulator, I deposit the instructions into 100000.
I attach the Tape and Disk using this:
> att tm0 v6.tape
> att rk0 v6root
I then run the instructions:
> run 100000
The Computer hangs, I break out of it. Then I type:
> boot tm0
It gives me a `=` prompt..
The Installation guide tells me to type:
> tmrk.
The emulator just freezes after this.
This may sound like a easy question, but I am very new to this.
Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator
would be very helpful.
Thanks.
*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu
*********************************
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA22473
for pups-liszt; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:51:05 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jan 1 09:53:07 1999
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22468
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:50:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25121; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:53:07 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812312353.KAA25121(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik Emulator and V6
To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:53:07 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9812311838460.20487-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Dec 31, 98 06:46:16 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator
> would be very helpful.
> Thanks.
Right at the bottom of the simh_doc.txt file, there are instructions
on how to boot the v6 image which comes with Bob Supnik's emulator.
That is the easiest way to get v6 up and running!
Cheers,
Warren
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
None
by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca
//GO.SYSIN DD ... is more a clue about what system I packed up
the file on than where I originally found it. It's all rob's fault.
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
rt11 and disk images
by Erin W. Corliss
(writer bites his tongue to keep from ranting about paying $100 for an
operating system for a computer that cost $12 at a second-hand store...
8^)
So I went back to the junk store yesterday and found a TK25 tape drive,
which appears to work fine with my PDP-11/73. It also uses the same
cartriges as my SCSI tape backup drive... Is there a DOS, Linux, or
windows NT program that I can use to save files to tape so I can load them
on the PDP-11? When I initialize a tape, is the format standard among
other computers, or is it specific to PDP's running RSTS?
Is there any way to make Unix 7 use RD hard drives?
...and most importantly...
Everything for PDP's seems to be distributed on disk images for drives I
don't have. I think I saw something somewhere about being able to mount a
.dsk file as a virtual drive under RT11... Anyone know if this is true?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA14527
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:09:29 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 07:07:32 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA14522
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:09:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA11417
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:07:32 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:07:32 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: rt11 and disk images
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
> (writer bites his tongue to keep from ranting about paying $100 for an
> operating system for a computer that cost $12 at a second-hand store... 8^)
If you think $100 for software is worthy of ranting I'd hate to see
what $100k (what it used to cost for UNIX sources) worth of ranting
would sound like :) :) :)
> So I went back to the junk store yesterday and found a TK25 tape drive,
> which appears to work fine with my PDP-11/73. It also uses the same
> cartriges as my SCSI tape backup drive... Is there a DOS, Linux, or
The TK25 (I have one also - worked the last time I checked some time
ago) uses DC600A (the "A" is important) 60mb tapes.
But there the similarity ends.
> windows NT program that I can use to save files to tape so I can load them
> on the PDP-11? When I initialize a tape, is the format standard among
> other computers, or is it specific to PDP's running RSTS?
The TQK25 formats the tape in a 'variable' record mode format that
is (as far as I know) peculiar to DEC (or who ever built the TK25
for them). This makes the TK25 look and feel like a 9-track drive
(record boundaries are preserved) which is nice.
Unfortunately most (all?) QIC drives in the "PC" world end up in a
'fixed record' mode (which loses the concept of record size). So
while you might have a DC600A drive on a Linux system it will, odds are,
only write in fixed record mode which the TQK25 probably won't like.
Have to try it and see what happens.
> Is there any way to make Unix 7 use RD hard drives?
Not easily. MSCP devices weren't around or weren't supported at
the time V7 came out. You'd need a development system running
supported disks first (perhaps the work could be done via an
emulator). Then you could create "boot kits" (and adding RD/RA
support would also entail writing bootblocks, standalone drivers,
updating /boot, in additi0on to the mainline kernel 'ra.c' driver).
2.11BSD supports the RD drives quite nicely - if you've an 11/73
then perhaps using 2.11 instead of V7 might be worth considering.
> ...and most importantly...
>
> Everything for PDP's seems to be distributed on disk images for drives I
> don't have. I think I saw something somewhere about being able to mount a
That's why I (even 6 years ago the older drive types were either
too old or too bulky/powerhungry) bought an Emulex UC08 (MSCP->SCSI)
and started using SCSI peripherals. You should have heard the
ranting - but it was worth in the long haul.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14776
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:37:12 +1100 (EST)
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 08:32:24 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA14771
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:36:56 +1100 (EST)
Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk)
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2)
id 0zv7ku-0003ce-00
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:36:49 +0000
Message-ID: <7OIFxAA4hVi2EwHy(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:32:24 +0000
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear All,
I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main
problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating
boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD.
To do this I've been using the makesimtape program. This hasn't worked
very well. I've had to make individual files for each of the standalone
utilities as I havn't been able to get the emulator to find files beyond
the first one. For instance if I make a standalone file consisting of
the bootstrap, boot, disklabel, mkfs, restor and inode then I can boot
the processor and load and run disklabel but nothing beyond this.
Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs
an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run
but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is
created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73.
I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go
through before I can read the files on the emulator.
Has anybody installed 2.11 on the emulator from scratch. If so, can
they offer any advice.
Regards
Robin
PS, the emulator is compiled with gcc on Solaris 2.6 running on a
sparc2. It runs the rt11 and v7 disks available with the simulator with
no worries.
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14831
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:49:48 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 30 08:51:34 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA14826
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:49:40 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23598; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:35 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812292251.JAA23598(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
To: robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:34 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <7OIFxAA4hVi2EwHy(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 29, 98 10:32:24 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Robin Birch:
> Dear All,
> I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main
> problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating
> boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD.
>
> To do this I've been using the makesimtape program. This hasn't worked
> very well. I've had to make individual files for each of the standalone
> utilities as I havn't been able to get the emulator to find files beyond
> the first one. For instance if I make a standalone file consisting of
> the bootstrap, boot, disklabel, mkfs, restor and inode then I can boot
> the processor and load and run disklabel but nothing beyond this.
The format of a tape image is described in simh_doc.txt in Appendix 1.3,
at roughly line 2,473 of the file. Perhaps the makesimtape program isn't
making the tape correctly. What arguments are you giving it?
On a silly note, if there is only a single thing on the tape you are trying
to restor, you could always save it without the record structure imposed
by makesimtape, attach it as RL00, and then restor it from /dev/rl00 :-)
Best of luck,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14858
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:34 +1100 (EST)
>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Dec 30 08:48:10 1998
Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA14853
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:26 +1100 (EST)
Received: (qmail 11612 invoked from network); 29 Dec 1998 21:55:57 -0000
Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115)
by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 29 Dec 1998 21:55:57 -0000
Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0zv7vT-0003l1C; Wed, 30 Dec 98 09:47 AEDT
Received: from localhost (dave@localhost)
by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id JAA22945; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:48:10 +1100
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:48:10 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
X-Sender: dave@fgh
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
In-Reply-To: <19981229184909.O32696(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812300947020.22664-100000@fgh>
X-No-Archive: Yes
X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk"
X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From
> observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A
> lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But
> there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right
> now.
Do you have thee 6th Edition documentation to tell you what the macros
do? I have them somewhere...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14878
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:55:19 +1100 (EST)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
None
by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Stuff this in the archives somewhere: V6 man macros.
I can't remember where I dug it up, unfortunately.
# To unbundle, sh this file
echo tmac.an6 1>&2
sed 's/.//' >tmac.an6 <<'//GO.SYSIN DD tmac.an6'
-'''\" Pwb Manual Entry Macros - Version 6 (@(#)an6.src 1.6)
-'''\" Nroff/Troff Version @(#)1.6
-.deTH
-.tmwrong version of man entry macros - use -man
-.ab
-..
-.rnbd Bd
-.rndt Dt
-.rnit il
-.nr}I 5n
-.nr}P 0 1
-.de}C
-.ev1
-.po0
-.lt7.5i
-.tl\-\-
-.lt
-.po
-.ev
-..
-.de}E
-.wh-1p }C
-..
-.ift .em }E
-.dei0
-.in\\n(}Iu
-.dt
-..
-.delp
-.tc
-.i0
-.ta\\$2n
-.in\\$1n
-.ti-\\$2n
-..
-.des1
-.sp1v
-.ne2
-..
-.des2
-.ift .sp .5v
-.ifn .sp 1v
-..
-.des3
-.ift .sp .5v
-.ifn .sp 1v
-.ne2
-..
-.de}F
-.ev1
-'ft1
-'ps10
-'sp.5i
-.tl- % -
-'ft
-'ps
-.ev
-'bp
-..
-.deth
-.de}X
-.ev1
-.ift .}C
-'ft1
-'ps10
-'sp.5i
-.tl''THIS MANUAL ENTRY NEEDS TO BE CONVERTED - SEE mancvt(1) and man(7)''
-.tl\\$1\|(\|\\$2\|)PWB/UNIX\| \\$3\\$1\|(\|\\$2\|)
-'ps
-'ft
-'sp.5i
-.ev
-\\..
-.wh-1i }F
-.wh0 }X
-.if\\n+(}P>1 .bp1
-.ft1
-.ft1
-.ps10
-.vs12p
-.ift .po .5i
-.in\\n(}Iu
-.fi
-.dt
-.mc
-.ad
-.ifn .na
-..
-.desh
-.s1
-.ift .ft 3
-.ps8
-.ti0
-\&\\$1
-.ift .ft
-.ps
-.br
-..
-.deit
-.ul
-.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_
-.el\&\\$1
-..
-.debd
-.ift .ft 3
-.ifn .ul
-.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_
-.el\&\\$1
-.ift .ft
-..
-.debn
-.ift .ft 3
-.ifn .ul
-.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_\t\&\c
-.el\&\\$1\t\&\c
-.ift .ft
-..
-.dedt
-.ifn .ta 8n 16n 24n 32n 40n 48n 56n 64n 72n 80n
-.ift .ta .5i 1i 1.5i 2i 2.5i 3i 3.5i 4i 4.5i 5i 5.5i 6i 6.5i
-..
-'dsv \(bv
-'ds' \(aa
-'ds> \(->
-'dsX \(mu
-'ds_ _
-'ds- \-
-'dsG \(*G
-'dsg \(ga
-'dsp \(*p
-'dsa \(aa
-'dsb \(*b
-'dsr \(rg
-'ds| \|
-'dsu \(*m
-.if\nV=1 \{\
-.po4
-.ll80
-.lt80
-.ev1
-.ll80
-.lt80
-.ev\}
-.if\nV>1 \{\
-.ll82
-.lt82
-.ev1
-.ll82
-.lt82
-.ev
-.pl84
-.rmul\}
-.hy14
-.uf2
//GO.SYSIN DD tmac.an6
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA14989
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:04:45 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 09:03:53 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14984
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:04:35 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA12398
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:03:53 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:03:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Robin -
Howdy.
> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
> I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main
2.3d? Hmmm, sounds like a little newer one than I've used in the
past (I've updated selected modules so I'm probably running 2.3d
but the directory is still called 2.3b ;))
> problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating
> boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD.
I don't think that's the case - but read on and see if my new
theory sounds plausible...
> Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs
> an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run
> but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is
> created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73.
Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape'
(or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that
the simulator expects to see.
> I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go
> through before I can read the files on the emulator.
Yes, there is. Not sure why it didn't occur to me earlier when you
mentioned having problems.
I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system
(Sparc) as the simulator is running.
If so then it sounds to be like there's an endianness bug in
makesimtape. That wouldn't surprise me since all I have are
either little or pdp-11 endian systems and never tested makesimtape
on a big endian machine.
There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places
for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description
of the simulated tape format (fairly simply and it's in the docs
somewhere as I recall) and the makesimtape.c source and see where I
"oops"d.
> Has anybody installed 2.11 on the emulator from scratch. If so, can
> they offer any advice.
Yes, I have. But only on little endian systems. The one time (ages
ago) I tried the simulator on a Sparc the program dropped core because
it wasn't bigendian capable. That's been fixed but I've never tried
it again.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15089
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:21:23 +1100 (EST)
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 09:20:18 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15084
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:21:14 +1100 (EST)
Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk)
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2)
id 0zv8Rf-0005cU-00; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:20:59 +0000
Message-ID: <Wta+ZIAyOWi2EwQ$(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:20:18 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
In-Reply-To: <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Robin -
> I don't think that's the case - but read on and see if my new
> theory sounds plausible...
>
I think that I've independantly come up with the same answer but by a
different logical root.
>> Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs
>> an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run
>> but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is
>> created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73.
>
> Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape'
> (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that
> the simulator expects to see.
>
Now this is what I didn't realise at first. All I thought makesimtape
was doing was packaging up the files, not writing some structure around
them.
>> I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go
>> through before I can read the files on the emulator.
>
> Yes, there is. Not sure why it didn't occur to me earlier when you
> mentioned having problems.
>
> I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system
> (Sparc) as the simulator is running.
>
This is the big one, no. I had assumed that as the simulator was
emulating a PDP that it would accept files generated to look like boot
files etc built on a pdp so I'm running makesimtape in the standalone
direcctory of the 11/73. Nieve maybe but at least it was logical :-).
> If so then it sounds to be like there's an endianness bug in
> makesimtape. That wouldn't surprise me since all I have are
> either little or pdp-11 endian systems and never tested makesimtape
> on a big endian machine.
>
What I'll do is build makesimtape on the sun and see what happens then.
> There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places
> for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description
> of the simulated tape format (fairly simply and it's in the docs
> somewhere as I recall) and the makesimtape.c source and see where I
> "oops"d.
Back in a mo.
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15164
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:34:30 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 09:33:50 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15159
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:34:21 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA12655
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:33:50 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:33:50 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812292333.PAA12655(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Robin -
> From robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 29 15:21:08 1998
> > Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape'
> > (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that
> Now this is what I didn't realise at first. All I thought makesimtape
> was doing was packaging up the files, not writing some structure around
It's writing simulated bytecounts and simulated file and tape marks ;)
> > I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system
> >
> This is the big one, no. I had assumed that as the simulator was
Ah, ok - so you're running the makesimtape program on an 11. That
would tend to point the finger at the program not flipping the
'structure' bytes into correct big endian order.
> emulating a PDP that it would accept files generated to look like boot
> files etc built on a pdp so I'm running makesimtape in the standalone
> directory of the 11/73. Nieve maybe but at least it was logical :-).
The "data" is PDP-11 specific, but the "structure" bytes need to be
in a canonical (big endian) form.
I was pretty sure the endianness was ok but I guess not. Another
possibility is that there's an alignment disagreement. The 11 might
be putting something on a 2 byte bound where the Sun expects a 4 byte
alignment.
> > There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places
> > for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description
> Back in a mo.
If you find (and fix ;-)) it let me know and I'll integrate the
changes into makesimtape.c in the 2.11 tree (and eventually in to
the PUPS archive).
Steve
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15193
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:42:04 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 30 09:43:56 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15188
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:41:57 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23709; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:43:56 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812292343.KAA23709(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:43:56 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 29, 98 12:39:52 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much
> with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to
> convert them to the Seventh Edition style?
>
> Greg
Here's a quick hack which is a start. It's a Perl script called fix:
#!/usr/bin/perl
while (<>) {
s/^\.br/.BR/;
if (/^\.bd/) {
if (/\"/) {
s/^\.bd/.B/; print; $_=".br\n";
} else {
s/^\.bd/.B/;
}
}
s/^\.bl/.BL/;
s/^\.it/.I/;
s/^\.sh/.SH/;
s/^\.th/.TH/;
s/^\.s3/.PP/;
s/\\\*/\\/g;
print;
}
I've run the V6 section 1 manuals through it, then nroffed them using
GNU nroff under FreeBSD 2.2.x, and I get only the following error messages:
# for i in *.1
> do perl /tmp/fix $i | nroff -man > /dev/null
> done
<standard input>:428: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:77: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:40: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:119: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:132: normal or special character expected (got a node)
<standard input>:137: a tab character is not allowed in an escape name
<standard input>:83: cannot use a space as a starting delimiter
<standard input>:127: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:93: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:75: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:64: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:36: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:154: a tab character is not allowed before an argument
<standard input>:182: a tab character is not allowed before an argument
<standard input>:182: error: end of file while ignoring input lines
<standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
I haven't eyeballed the output from them all, but ls(1), sh(1), db(1)
and roff(1) look ok.
Send in any improvements!!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15247
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:59:06 +1100 (EST)
>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Dec 30 09:58:25 1998
Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15242
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:58:57 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from cdl@localhost)
by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA16791;
Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:58:25 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:58:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199812292358.PAA16791(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
To: dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au, grog(a)lemis.com
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Dec 29 15:07 PST 1998
> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:48:10 +1100 (EST)
> From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
> X-Sender: dave@fgh
> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
>
> On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> > In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From
> > observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A
> > lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But
> > there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right
> > now.
>
> Do you have thee 6th Edition documentation to tell you what the macros
> do? I have them somewhere...
>
> --
A quick check around some computers that I have on-line shows two sets
of v6 man macros, one for nroff and one for troff. This is on a NeXT
running NeXTstep 3.3. But I suspect that these same macros are
available on anything with a BSD 4.3 flavor.
/usr/lib/tmac/tmac.an6n
/usr/lib/tmac/tmac.an6t
About 200 lines total between them.
With the right macros, [ntg]roff should be able to do everything else.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15274
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:06:51 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 10:06:30 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15267
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:06:42 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA12964
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:06:30 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:06:30 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
In glancing thru Bob's simulator I spotted this:
* Endian independent binary I/O package
For consistency, all binary data read and written by the simulator
is stored in little endian data order. That is, in a multi-byte
data item, the bytes are written out right to left, low order byte
to high order byte. On a big endian host, data is read and written
from high byte to low byte. Consequently, data written on a little
endian system must be byte reversed to be usable on a big endian
system, and vice versa.
Perhaps this sheds some light on why a Sparc can't read a pdp-11
generated (via 'makesimtape') tape.
I know I've read simulated tape files on an Intel system with no
trouble - so it would appear that the endianness was correct.
Good Luck Robin! ;)
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15356
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:53:44 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Dec 30 10:51:48 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15351
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:53:20 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA06005;
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:44 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA35293;
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:48 +1030 (CST)
Message-ID: <19981230112148.C32696(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:48 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: rt11 and disk images
References: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Dec 29, 1998 at 01:07:32PM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tuesday, 29 December 1998 at 13:07:32 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> The TQK25 formats the tape in a 'variable' record mode format that
> is (as far as I know) peculiar to DEC (or who ever built the TK25
> for them). This makes the TK25 look and feel like a 9-track drive
> (record boundaries are preserved) which is nice.
>
> Unfortunately most (all?) QIC drives in the "PC" world end up in a
> 'fixed record' mode (which loses the concept of record size). So
> while you might have a DC600A drive on a Linux system it will, odds are,
> only write in fixed record mode which the TQK25 probably won't like.
> Have to try it and see what happens.
I believe the new CAM driver for FreeBSD 3.0 can do variable block
lengths on QIC drives.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA16818
for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:31:23 +1100 (EST)
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 22:28:31 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA16813
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:31:13 +1100 (EST)
Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk)
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2)
id 0zvKmJ-0002Hl-00; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:31:07 +0000
Message-ID: <qKdBgFAvxhi2EwFc(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:28:31 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator
In-Reply-To: <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
> I know I've read simulated tape files on an Intel system with no
> trouble - so it would appear that the endianness was correct.
>
> Good Luck Robin! ;)
>
> Steven
Steven,
I now have a makesimtape that creates the bootstrap files correctly. I
have found, I think, one bug and partly rewritten another bit just to
put my mind at rest about a couple of things. I still can't create the
root correctly though.
What I have found:
1) Your endianness is correct, it took me a couple of sample programs
and rewrites to prove it. In doing this I have replaced trl with
another bit of code that does the same thing but is easier to play
around with to change the byte orders.
2) There are two bugs in the use of writev. These are:
2.1) When writing the headers and data you are writing a long to the
file where iovec only supports (I think) an unsigned short.
2.2) When writing the tape marks you are writing an integer as though it
was a long.
Of the two 2.2 is the most significant (I think).
After correcting both of these. By changing zero from an int to a long
and by replacing the writevs with writes for the headers, data and
trailers I have a version of makesimtape that creates a bootstrap file
that works.
I can load and run all of the bootstrap programs as though I was looking
at a real pdp which I couldn't before. This makes me think that I have
probably got makesimtape about right.
Now for the bad bit. I have created a root.dump then run it through
makesimtape with the command file:
/usr/root.dump 2
* 1
and it won't load from restor. I get a succession of "missing address
(header) block" errors but I successfully detect the end of the tape and
restor stops running, as it is supposed to do.
So, am I doing something wrong in creating the root file? or is there
something still wrong with makesimtape?. This is probably a red herring
but the distribution tapes are written with a blocksize of 20 for all of
the data after the bootstraps whilst makesimtape only writes multiples
of 512.
Advice please
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA17289
for pups-liszt; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:53:20 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Dec 31 01:52:58 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA17284
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:53:10 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id HAA10714
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:52:58 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:52:58 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812301552.HAA10714(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Robin -
> From robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 04:31:15 1998
> What I have found:
>
> 1) Your endianness is correct, it took me a couple of sample programs
Whew - that's a relief.
> 2) There are two bugs in the use of writev. These are:
>
> 2.1) When writing the headers and data you are writing a long to the
> file where iovec only supports (I think) an unsigned short.
iovec can write as much as it wants to. To write a 'long' one
simply stuffs the _address_ of the long variable into iov_base
and "sizeof long" into iov_len. I'm not sure what you mean by
iovec only supporting a short.
> 2.2) When writing the tape marks you are writing an integer as though it
> was a long.
It isn't? Oops.
On some systms (those where "sizeof long == sizeof int") 'zero'
would be a long.
Sigh - I've been contaminated by machines where that assumption is
true.
> Now for the bad bit. I have created a root.dump then run it through
> makesimtape with the command file:
>
> /usr/root.dump 2
> * 1
>
> and it won't load from restor. I get a succession of "missing address
> (header) block" errors but I successfully detect the end of the tape and
> restor stops running, as it is supposed to do.
> So, am I doing something wrong in creating the root file? or is there
Uh, yes ;)
'dump' tapes *must* consist of 10kb records. 'restore' is expecting
10kb (or 20 sector) records and complaining about the shortness of
what it is reading.
> something still wrong with makesimtape?. This is probably a red herring
> but the distribution tapes are written with a blocksize of 20 for all of
> the data after the bootstraps whilst makesimtape only writes multiples
> of 512.
Correct. The bootblock+boot needs to be 512 byte records so the
boot rom can deal with it. The standalone programs are 1kb records
(because that's the filesystem block size and to make the 'seeking'
in the pseudo-stdio routines possible/simple).
All the _data_ files are 10kb records because that's what 'tar' and
'dump' use.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA17381
for pups-liszt; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:43 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Kraus <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> Thu Dec 31 02:13:57 1998
Received: from m4.c2.telstra-mm.net.au ([24.192.3.19])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA17376
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:36 +1100 (EST)
Received: from m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au [24.192.3.20])
by m4.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06722
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:32 +1100 (EDT)
Received: from nsw.bigpond.net.au (UNKNOWN061179.rev.telstra-mm.net.au [24.192.61.179])
by m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA17024
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:31 +1100 (EDT)
Message-ID: <368A5145.BE11CED3(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:13:57 +1100
From: Michael Kraus <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PDP Free to good home...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
G'day all...
I've got a DEC Pro/350 machine (including Pro OS and manuals, etc), as
well as a serial printer for it.
I've been planning on putting UNIX on it, and tracking down a network
card for it. However, I don't really have enough time or space to do
such.
It is a PDP (unsure if it is a PDP-11 or not... I did find out, but that
was a while ago). I'm pretty sure that you will be able to get it to run
UNIX (v6, I think).
Rather then let it sit useless in my hall, I thought one of you guys (or
girls, as the case may be) may appreciate it more than what I currently
am.
The only cost involved would be the cost of getting yourself here,
picking it up and taking it back home. FYI, I live in Paddington (NSW).
Email me if you are interested.
Michael.
P.s. It is in my posssesion as my father is a doctor and it was in use
for many years in his practice. (Its only recently that they upgraded
as it suited the purpose so well!)
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
Converting Sixth Edition man pages
by Greg Lehey
I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much
with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to
convert them to the Seventh Edition style?
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA12241
for pups-liszt; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:12:50 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 29 18:14:38 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA12236
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:12:44 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA22809; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:14:38 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812290814.TAA22809(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:14:38 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 29, 98 12:39:52 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much
> with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to
> convert them to the Seventh Edition style?
>
> Greg
My off-the-cuff suggestion is to read the man(7) pages for both V6 and V7,
and write a Perl script to make the changes :-) That's probably the `best'
solution, but would take time.
Do you want to preserve the markup, or just want to view the manpages?
Just viewing them would be easier, of course!
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA12285
for pups-liszt; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:19:35 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 29 18:19:09 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA12280
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:19:25 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA02758;
Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:49:07 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA33530;
Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:49:09 +1030 (CST)
Message-ID: <19981229184909.O32696(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:49:09 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
References: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199812290814.TAA22809(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199812290814.TAA22809(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Dec 29, 1998 at 07:14:38PM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tuesday, 29 December 1998 at 19:14:38 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>> I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much
>> with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to
>> convert them to the Seventh Edition style?
>
> My off-the-cuff suggestion is to read the man(7) pages for both V6 and V7,
> and write a Perl script to make the changes :-) That's probably the `best'
> solution, but would take time.
perl? What's perl? :-) But yes, that was one alternative, one I
hadn't thought worth the trouble.
> Do you want to preserve the markup, or just want to view the manpages?
> Just viewing them would be easier, of course!
In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From
observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A
lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But
there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right
now.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release
by Michael Sokolov
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
About three hours ago I have released 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, the latest release of
4.3BSD-*. This release has the 4.3-Tahoe userland and a kernel that supports
all hardware supported by CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases, including KA630 and
KA650 MicroVAXen.
You can find 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 under Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax in the
PUPS archive. It is by far the newest system in the archive, compiled only a
couple of days ago.
I haven't got around to implementing a standalone disk labeling facility yet,
so installing it on a typical MicroVAX with third-party MSCP disks is still a
little bit of a challenge. While working on building this release, I and Tim
Shoppa have come up with a usable solution to this disklabel problem. It
appears in Distributions/4bsd/tips/QTR_disklabel_note. This approach also works
with VAX builds of CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases (QTR stands for Quasijarus,
Tahoe, and Reno).
Have fun with it!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
2.11BSD
by Erin W. Corliss
I know you've all been on the edge of your seats waiting for this, but...
I finally got my PDP-11/73 working, using a wyse terminal instead of my PC
-- for some reason neither of the serial ports were sending on the PC (but
then again, I boughtthe motherboard in an alley in korea three years
ago)... Anyway, it boots up with RSTS/E version 9, which is OK in it's
own little way, I guess, but I'd rather be running Unix on it.
So where can I download the binaries for 2.11BSD?
-- Erin Corliss
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA02429
for pups-liszt; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 15:03:53 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Dec 26 14:03:36 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA02424
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 15:03:42 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU;
Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:03:36 -0500
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:03:36 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <981225230336.206000db(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>I know you've all been on the edge of your seats waiting for this, but...
>
>I finally got my PDP-11/73 working, using a wyse terminal instead of my PC
>-- for some reason neither of the serial ports were sending on the PC (but
>then again, I boughtthe motherboard in an alley in korea three years
>ago)...
There are at least two different standards for the ribbon-cable-to-D-sub
adapters, and of course it's guaranteed that you'll use the wront type :-).
> Anyway, it boots up with RSTS/E version 9, which is OK in it's
> own little way, I guess, but I'd rather be running Unix on it.
> So where can I download the binaries for 2.11BSD?
Easiest way is for you to tell us what sort of load media you can use and
have someone write an install tape for you. Do you have a TK50 or other tape
drive on the system?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA03169
for pups-liszt; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:31:23 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Dec 26 20:32:47 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03164
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:31:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA20488; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:32:47 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812261032.VAA20488(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD (but no src license)
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:32:47 +1100 (EST)
Cc: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net
In-Reply-To: <19981226180625.S12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 26, 98 06:06:25 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Friday, 25 December 1998 at 23:09:48 -0800, Erin W. Corliss wrote:
> > On Sat, 26 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> >> Do you have an Ancient UNIX license? I don't see you in our list.
> >> You'll need one before we can give you a copy of the software.
> >
> > Nope. I have a licensed copy of RSTS/E I could trade, though... 8^) No,
> > actually, I think I found another source for it, but thanks for the
> > concern.
>
> PUPS is very glad to have been able to have created the possibility of
> legally using these old versions of UNIX. Please don't make things
> difficult by abusing somebody's cooperation. You can get it legally;
> see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html for more details.
>
> Greg
What Greg says is true: we can't give you access to any UNIX source
code unless you have a UNIX source license from SCO. However....
I should ask Dion at SCO if we could distribute binary-only distributions
of 2.x BSD without a license. After all, freely distributable binary-only
distributions for v5, v6, v7 and Venix (System III-ish) exist.
Just a thought, but for now you do need a source license.
Cheers,
Warren
26 years, 4 months
- 1
- 0
PDP11/83 qbus layout.
by Jorgen Pehrson
(Sorry for the rather lenghty post)
Hi,
I'd just try to boot my newly aquired PDP11/83 and was planning to install
2.11BSD. But I've run into one (small?) problem. If I just try to boot
from DU0: it says:
Trying DU0
Error 20
Controller Error
And if I boot the install tape from the TK70 drive and run disklabel,
all accesses to the RD53 drive just times out. So I was going to remove
all unwanted QBus boards from the boxes. And that's what I was going to
ask...
Is there something special I have to think about, like there's some slots
that can't be used, some boards must be in a specific slot and so on?
This is the current layout (which is exactly as it was when it was taken
offline, or so I think)
11/83 (173QA-B3, I think this is a normal BA23 enclosure):
(As seen from the back) Also contains one TK70 drive.
____________________________________________
|Dataram 40903 revG | Empty slot | (2mb ram)
---------------------------------------------
| M8637-EH | (2mb ram)
---------------------------------------------
| M8190-AE | (83 CPU)
---------------------------------------------
| M7559 | M7504 | (TK70, DEQNA)
---------------------------------------------
| M8020 | Empty slot | (console?)
---------------------------------------------
| M7957 | (DZV11)
---------------------------------------------
| m3104 | (DHV11)
---------------------------------------------
| M9404 | Empty slot | (1st Qbus conn)
---------------------------------------------
Expansion box (173QA-B3)
(From the back) Also contains one RD53 and one dual floppy.
_____________________________________________
|M9405-YA | Empty slot | (2nd qbus conn)
---------------------------------------------
| m3104 | (DHV11)
---------------------------------------------
| m9047 | m9047 | (grant cont x2)
---------------------------------------------
| m7555 | Empty slot | (RQDX3)
---------------------------------------------
| m7512 | Empty slot | (RQDX1E)
---------------------------------------------
Plus one external disk box with two RD53 drive. (This system only uses one
drive though.)
Now, what I obviously want to keep is:
the two RAM boards, the CPU, the console board, tk70 controller, deqna,
rqdx3.
What I want to loose:
the rest of the serial boards, the rqdx1e board and the floppy drive.
What do I have to do to make this work? I would preferrably want to fit
all those boards in the main CPU enclosure box. Do I have to re-assign any
addresses (or vectors, or what the correct PDP-speak is). Are there any
slots in the enclosure that are a no-no for the dual-sized boards?
Thanks for any input!!
Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3)
jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3)
http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum PDP11/83 (2.11BSD) VAX2000 (NetBSD/vax)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA28023
for pups-liszt; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 01:16:27 +1100 (EST)
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Fri Dec 25 00:10:43 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA28018
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 01:16:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk)
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2)
id 0ztBYh-0002Ra-00; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:16:11 +0000
Message-ID: <sB9s7CAjtkg2EwEL(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:10:43 +0000
To: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
Cc: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PDP11/83 qbus layout.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.05.9812232234500.23424-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <Pine.NEB.4.05.9812232234500.23424-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>,
Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> writes
>
>(Sorry for the rather lenghty post)
>
Don't worry about that.
>Hi,
>I'd just try to boot my newly aquired PDP11/83 and was planning to install
>2.11BSD. But I've run into one (small?) problem. If I just try to boot
>from DU0: it says:
>
>Trying DU0
>
>Error 20
>Controller Error
>
>And if I boot the install tape from the TK70 drive and run disklabel,
>all accesses to the RD53 drive just times out. So I was going to remove
>all unwanted QBus boards from the boxes. And that's what I was going to
>ask...
>
A good plan
>
>Is there something special I have to think about, like there's some slots
>that can't be used, some boards must be in a specific slot and so on?
>
There are rules about where boards can go which is an off shoot of the
BG lines and so on.
>This is the current layout (which is exactly as it was when it was taken
>offline, or so I think)
>
>11/83 (173QA-B3, I think this is a normal BA23 enclosure):
>(As seen from the back) Also contains one TK70 drive.
>
> ____________________________________________
>|Dataram 40903 revG | Empty slot | (2mb ram)
>---------------------------------------------
>| M8637-EH | (2mb ram)
>---------------------------------------------
>| M8190-AE | (83 CPU)
>---------------------------------------------
>| M7559 | M7504 | (TK70, DEQNA)
>---------------------------------------------
>| M8020 | Empty slot | (console?)
>---------------------------------------------
>| M7957 | (DZV11)
>---------------------------------------------
>| m3104 | (DHV11)
>---------------------------------------------
>| M9404 | Empty slot | (1st Qbus conn)
>---------------------------------------------
>
>Expansion box (173QA-B3)
>(From the back) Also contains one RD53 and one dual floppy.
>
>_____________________________________________
>|M9405-YA | Empty slot | (2nd qbus conn)
>---------------------------------------------
>| m3104 | (DHV11)
>---------------------------------------------
>| m9047 | m9047 | (grant cont x2)
>---------------------------------------------
>| m7555 | Empty slot | (RQDX3)
>---------------------------------------------
>| m7512 | Empty slot | (RQDX1E)
>---------------------------------------------
>
>Plus one external disk box with two RD53 drive. (This system only uses one
>drive though.)
>
>Now, what I obviously want to keep is:
>the two RAM boards, the CPU, the console board, tk70 controller, deqna,
>rqdx3.
>
What you are calling the console board probably isn't, or if it is then
you want to use the one from the CPU card rather than the M8020 (DPV11 I
think?).
>What I want to loose:
>the rest of the serial boards, the rqdx1e board and the floppy drive.
>
What I suggest is this. Keep the CPU and the mem, the TK controller and
tape, the deqna, the RQDX3 and a serial card (You never know when a
spare serial port is going to be useful - printers, simple comms to a
PC, spare terminal etc etc etc).
A possible layout would be:
|Dataram 40903 revG | Empty slot | (2mb ram)
---------------------------------------------
| M8637-EH | (2mb ram)
---------------------------------------------
| M8190-AE | (83 CPU)
---------------------------------------------
| M7559 | M7504 | (TK70, DEQNA)
---------------------------------------------
| M7957/M3104 | (DZV11) or (DHV11)
---------------------------------------------
| M7555 | Empty slot |
----------------------------------------------
| Empty slot | Empty slot |
---------------------------------------------
| Empty slot | Empty slot |
---------------------------------------------
>What do I have to do to make this work? I would preferrably want to fit
>all those boards in the main CPU enclosure box. Do I have to re-assign any
>addresses (or vectors, or what the correct PDP-speak is). Are there any
>slots in the enclosure that are a no-no for the dual-sized boards?
>
You would have to check with others which of the serial boards is best
supported under 2.11BSD. Steve Schultz is your best point of contact
for this.
Looking at you aoriginal configuration I think that the empty slot by
your M8020 is your problem (unless there is a bus grant card in there)
as there wouldn't be any BG continuity.
This should work and allow you to ditch all of the rest. (saving it for
a rainy day of course :-)).
Regards
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Problems booting 2.11 on a 11/84
by Steven M. Schultz
Hi -
> From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
> I have connected a Fujisu M2444 9 track to an Emulex TC13 that is in my
> 11/84. The following is what happens when I try to boot a BSD 2.11 tape
> that I made on my uVax3600/TU81+ (@6250 bpi):
What CSR do you have the TC13 set for?
> Enter device name and unit number then press the RETURN key: MS0
> Trying MS0 (tape starts rolling)
>
> Starting ROM boot
>
> 140276 (tape stops)
> @
The Boot ROM did it's job of reading in the 512 byte boot record and
transferring control to location 0.
The bootblock relocates itself to 48kb which is 0140000.
> cables on the M2444 the LED on the TC13 comes on and the M2444 will not do
> anything.
I don't think the problem is cabling in this case.
If you have another system that you can view the sources with the
file you really need to have in front of you at this time is
/usr/src/sys/pdpstand/mtboot.s
The section of code where the system is halting (with added octal
offsets) is:
0262 bne ctlerr
0264 bit $!1000,hter(csr) / any drive errs except HTER_FCE
0272 beq bumpaddr / no, go bump address
ctlerr:
0274 halt
The label 'ctlerr' is shared but it indicates that a controller
error was encountered out of the 'tmtscom' common logic (shared between
the MT and MS drivers):
tmtscom:
bit $100200,(csr) / error or ready?
beq tmtscom / neither, keep looking
bmi ctlerr / error - go halt
The thing to try is when the system halts looking at the registers
(R0 thru R5) _and_ the tape controller registers (starting at 0172520).
It's also possible to look at the command buffer being presented to
the controller by looking at offset 0460 (0140460). Not sure how useful
that will be though.
It might be possible to single step the processor starting at location
0 as long as R0 and R1 are set up correctly (R0 has the unit number
and R1 the control register address which is 172522 for MS and MT
devices).
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA16654
for pups-liszt; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:18:17 +1100 (EST)
>From Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Tue Dec 22 08:17:50 1998
Received: from carp.gbr.epa.gov (carp.gbr.epa.gov [204.46.159.110])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16649
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:18:08 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from mjenkins@localhost)
by carp.gbr.epa.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15443
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:17:50 -0600 (CST)
(envelope-from mjenkins)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:17:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>
Message-Id: <199812212217.QAA15443(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
In-Reply-To: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
There is a diagram at The Internet Operating System Counter which is at
http://www.hzo.cubenet.de/ioscount/. Take the "Unix networking" link.
It was published in iX, a German magazine.
Mike
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA17356
for pups-liszt; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:44:57 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 22 12:44:15 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA17348
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:44:47 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA01429;
Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:14:15 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA08618;
Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:14:16 +1030 (CST)
Message-ID: <19981222131415.A85005(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:14:15 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199812212217.QAA15443(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199812212217.QAA15443(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>; from Mike Jenkins on Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 04:17:50PM -0600
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 21 December 1998 at 16:17:50 -0600, Mike Jenkins wrote:
> There is a diagram at The Internet Operating System Counter which is at
> http://www.hzo.cubenet.de/ioscount/. Take the "Unix networking" link.
> It was published in iX, a German magazine.
As I feared when I heard it came from iX, it's *very* inaccurate.
For example, it claims that 1BSD was derived from 32/V (should have
been 3BSD), derives 1BSD from 1BSD and 4.1BSD (should be 4BSD) from
the second 1BSD (should be 3BSD), derives ``BSDI'' from 4.3BSD, when
in fact BSD/OS is derived from 4.4BSD, doesn't mention System V(.1) or
System V.3, etc. And all this is OS code, not networking code.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA21472
for pups-liszt; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 06:06:48 +1100 (EST)
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Wed Dec 23 05:16:49 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA21466
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 06:06:34 +1100 (EST)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA20458
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:06:23 -0800 (PST)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981222111606.008f4450(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:16:49 -0800
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Emulex TU13 Dip Switch Layout?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear PUPS List,
I have an Emulex TU13 tape drive interface. Does anyone on the list have
the dip switch layout so that I can program them properly?
Thank You,
Merry Christmas,
Rick Copeland
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Moving a RL02..
by Jorgen Pehrson
Hi,
I was given a couple of QBus PDP11 on which I'm going to run 2.11BSD or
some other version of UNIX. One /73 and one /83. Both had RL02 drives, a
couple of RD53's and loads of serial boards and an extra expansion box
each. Now there's that little question of lugging them back to my
apartment. So, is there any particular precaution I should take when it
comes to the RL02's? Are they sensitive to vibrations or something? Do
they have to be in some sort of transport mode?
Is there some information available online which explains how to operate
the RL02? Like how to open the drive, for starters... :) Or how the RL02
controller should be jumpered. (I guess that depends on what else is
present on the QBus though...)
Is there some other UNIX version that I can run on any of these machines?
I already have one PDP11/83 which happily runs 2.11BSD so it would be nice
to run older UNIX versions as well.
Thanks!
--
Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3)
jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3)
http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum PDP11/83 (2.11BSD) VAX2000 (NetBSD/vax)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA12528
for pups-liszt; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:18:04 +1100 (EST)
>From "James E. Carpenter" <jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net> Mon Dec 21 09:17:43 1998
Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12523
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:17:54 +1100 (EST)
Received: from mail-out-1.tiac.net (mail-out-1.tiac.net [199.0.65.12])
by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28527;
Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:17:48 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net)
Received: from zach1.tiac.net (zach1.tiac.net [206.119.129.250])
by mail-out-1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22465;
Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:17:46 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from jimc@localhost)
by zach1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19857;
Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:17:44 -0500
From: "James E. Carpenter" <jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net>
Message-Id: <199812202317.SAA19857(a)zach1.tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore?
To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:17:43 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199812161520.KAA28340(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at Dec 16, 98 10:20:18 am
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> > I just took a quick look at my SunOS 3.2 tapes. The copyright file says:
> >
> > Copyright (c) 1986 by Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> >
> > Most of the files seem to be dated September 1986. Many others are dated
> > July 1986.
>
> Speaking of old SunOS tapes..... I have a friend that dug out a pair
> of SunOS 1.1 tapes that he has had for years. Alas, they are unreadable.
> Is there any way to rewrite those tapes from anyones archival materials?
> Sun has graciously allowed pre-sparc materials to be available on-line
> in the German Sun3 archives. All they have seems to be SunOS-4.1.1,
> though.
I could donate SunOS 3.2, SunOS 4.0 (MC68010), and the 4.0.3 upgrade to the
archive, assuming they want Sun2 material. I also have the SunOS 4.0.3
_upgrade_ for the 68020. All the tape files are tarred and gziped on a CDROM
I burned not too long ago.
> I am wondering if there is any interest in some of the early
> Sun tapes?
Well I'd sure love to see SunOS 1.x running on my 2/120. :-)
> Are the 1.1 tapes basically a 4.2BSD port? Are they in
> QIC-11 or QIC-24 format?
It would be 4-track QIC-11. SunOS 3.2 also came on four QIC-11 tapes. But
SunOS 4.x _probably_ only came on two QIC-24 tapes. (I say "probably"
because my SunOS 4.x tapes are in 9-track QIC-11 format. I _assume_ this was
done by somebody other than Sun so that it could be installed on a Sun2 with
older ROMs.)
- Jim
--
James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net
6 Munroe Drive
Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W
PGP: 7ADE9D99 Fingerprint: 8D AF 63 EC D3 51 14 3E F1 59 8A 68 32 63 3F 8E
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16037
for pups-liszt; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:08:18 +1100 (EST)
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Dec 22 05:18:19 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA16032
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:08:09 +1100 (EST)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA04125
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:08:02 -0800 (PST)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981221111758.00905100(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:18:19 -0800
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Problems booting 2.11 on a 11/84
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear PUPS List,
I have connected a Fujisu M2444 9 track to an Emulex TC13 that is in my
11/84. The following is what happens when I try to boot a BSD 2.11 tape
that I made on my uVax3600/TU81+ (@6250 bpi):
Enter device name and unit number then press the RETURN key: MS0
Trying MS0 (tape starts rolling)
Starting ROM boot
140276 (tape stops)
@
The boot programs that are available are quite extensive on this 11/84, it
does tapes, disks, just about everything. The M2444 is checked out by
doing the test (01 start, etc)and passes all the tests. If I reverse the
cables on the M2444 the LED on the TC13 comes on and the M2444 will not do
anything.
Rick Copeland
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Ancient SunOS Tapes for UHS archives?????
by Warren Toomey
In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys:
> I went to the archive site http://sun3arc.krupp.net
> and it attributes the permission to archive materials to a
> Mr. Knieriem of SUN Germany, Research and Education.
>
> One of the UHS folks might try to contact said Mr. Knieriem
> to see if adding some of our other early stuff would be feasible.
> The sun3arc site only has binaries, though.
> I would assume the PUPS/UHS archives might work out some kind
> of binary and source arrangement, perhaps?
I've emailed the webmaster at the site which the above query. I've
also added a link from the TUHS page to this site, so we don't lose
the reference.
Cheers,
> Mebbie we has started somethin' 'ere, methinks....(:+}}.....
> Bob Keys
Also we also have people inside Sun too! Sounds hopeful.
Thanks all,
Warren
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks
by Michael Sokolov
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> What specifically would one look for to exactly differentiate
> a vanilla 4.3, from a Tahoe, from a Reno, from a 4.4, from a 4.4Lite,
> on non-standard hardware?
Telling between pre-Reno and post-Reno is trivial. If you see
directories like /usr/ucb, /usr/doc, /usr/man, binaries in /etc and in
/usr/lib, and so on, it's pre-Reno. If you see all docs, manpages, etc.
moved into /usr/share, /usr/ucb gone, no binaries in /etc or in /usr/lib,
strange critters appearing like /sbin, /usr/sbin, /usr/libexec, and
/usr/libdata, it's post-Reno.
Distinguishing between plain-4.3-based and Tahoe-based non-UCB systems
can be tough, and, frankly, pointless. Aside from hardware issues, the
noticeable differences between 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe are the location of
source-form manpages (/usr/man/man[1-8] on 4.3, /usr/src/man/man[1-8] on
Tahoe), MX record support in Sendmail (present in Tahoe but not in 4.3),
and the Olson timezone implementation, i.e., that big pile of zoneinfo
files (again present in Tahoe but not in 4.3).
The reason exercises like this are pointless is because when some brave
vendor takes BSD sources and tries to make a vendor release from them, they
usually have their own mind about what the system should look like,
different from CSRG's. Vendors often take different pieces from different
systems on a subjective basis. A vendor release can have the feature set of
one system and the look and feel of another. For example, Ultrix V4.0 has
the classical pre-Reno look and feel, but yet is POSIXized to about the
same extent as Reno. Thus the blurb above about telling between pre-Reno
and post-Reno systems refers to the look and feel of a system, not to its
feature set. The plain 4.3 vs. Tahoe distinction doesn't really hold in
vendor systems either. Ultrix V4.0 has MX record support in Sendmail, but
its man mechanism is plain 4.3 vintage. Don't remember if there were
zoneinfo files there or not.
/var also has an interesting story. In the BSD line it appears in Reno,
but it originates in SunOS and Ultrix, systems with pre-Reno look and feel
on which a number of directories were moved from /usr to the newly-created
/var. Thus on 4.3 or 4.3-Tahoe you have /usr/spool/mail, on SunOS and
Ultrix you have /var/spool/mail, and on Reno and later you have /var/mail.
Oh, I forgot to mention that the filesystem format changed slightly and
disk label support was added between 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe. Again this is
certainly meaningless for vendor systems because they always tweak the
filesystem format themselves and have their own disk label implementations
that are not compatible with the one in Tahoe and later BSD releases.
> The dating seems to be 1987 or 1988. Was Tahoe around then?
The Tahoe tape shipped in the summer of 1988, but of course the work at
CSRG was going all the time.
> Salus suggests straight 4.3 was June of 1986, and Tahoe was June
> of 1988 (Salus, p. 165).
Correct.
> but, a VAXStation 3500 just appeared
> in surplus.... maybe the bidding force will be with me.
Good luck. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1 will run like a charm on it. If the force
is really with you, you may even be able to run it with the graphical
console, but if not, it's trivial to pull the QDSS boards out and run the
machine as a standard VAX.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA20397
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:11:43 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 06:05:16 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA20392
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:11:34 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27002;
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:05:16 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199812152005.PAA27002(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981215141724.4474C-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com> from Pat Barron at "Dec 15, 98 02:34:00 pm"
To: pat(a)transarc.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:05:16 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> No, the ROMP (the RT's CPU) is a RISC CPU.
OK.
> > Yes, there was an IBM'er that said he had some original tapes. I was
> > hoping he would check with someone at IBM to see what the status was.
>
> That would probably be me. I'm still looking - I have a call in right now
> to someone who might be able to help.
Oh, now that might be interesting. Maybe the old AOS BSD will roll again!
> > There was a group at Carnegie-Mellon that had some machines with AOS,
> > but I don't have any pointers to anyone up there, for sure.
>
> Best bet would probably be someone at the ITC or the CS department, or the
> Andrew Consortium. Don't really know many of those folks anymore, though,
> and not sure if anyone from the right time period is still around.
All I could find was one more recent fellow that had a ROMP board and
a set of BSD tapes for it, but he had not apparently gotten it running.
Also, most of the original folks seemed to be gone. Most everyone
I have run into has wanted to run AIX on the RT hardware instead of BSD.
I am beginning to feel like the odd man out if I shun AIX on the RT.
> I have one in my living room....
Gee, that make 3 extant boards and 1 real live machine! Neato!
Have you had yours up with a BSD? Anyone for a BSD rolling party?
Sounds like a little interest, maybe?
I wish Blue would donate that to the PUPS archives, yup, yup, yup.
That would be a nice gesture, and ought to be worth some PR brownies
for them. Technically, would that not fall under the Ancient Unix,
umbrella, anyway? That would be a legalese mumbo jumbo to sort out,
though, and not my forte.
Bob
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA20667
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:17:30 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 07:10:49 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA20662
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:17:22 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27141;
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:10:50 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199812152110.QAA27141(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks
In-Reply-To: <199812152005.BAA10743(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Michael Sokolov at "Dec 15, 98 08:04:56 pm"
To: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:10:49 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> > What specifically would one look for to exactly differentiate
> > a vanilla 4.3, from a Tahoe, from a Reno, from a 4.4, from a 4.4Lite,
> > on non-standard hardware?
>
> Telling between pre-Reno and post-Reno is trivial.
..... Lotsa neat info for us lesser newbie types.
My main reason for asking was to try to place the AOS historically.
It is definitely pre-Reno, and the manpages are in user/man/manX
as to source pages. I was thinking it had timezones, though.
The compiler was still pcc, and a custom Hi-Tech C thing called hc.
> The reason exercises like this are pointless is because when some brave
> vendor takes BSD sources and tries to make a vendor release from them, they
> usually have their own mind about what the system should look like,
> different from CSRG's.
Granted, but the AOS system felt very unmodified, subjectively. So,
I was not thinking it was almost Reno, or somewhere close to that.
Knowing anything of the detailed structure helps me to place it
developmentally.
> Oh, I forgot to mention that the filesystem format changed slightly and
> disk label support was added between 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe. Again this is
> certainly meaningless for vendor systems because they always tweak the
> filesystem format themselves and have their own disk label implementations
> that are not compatible with the one in Tahoe and later BSD releases.
OK, the AOS seemed to have a disklabel, but of a different format from
later releases. fsck has a field day if an update to one of the later
after-AOS builds is installed.
What would one use to differentiate the Lite from earlier systems?
The last build was in the 4xx range, and dated 1996, IFF I am remembering
right. It is running gcc at the 2.5.8 level. Are there key file system
dates or revision levels that would help to indicate how late it is?
......
> > but, a VAXStation 3500 just appeared
> > in surplus.... maybe the bidding force will be with me.
>
> Good luck. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1 will run like a charm on it. If the force
> is really with you, you may even be able to run it with the graphical
> console, but if not, it's trivial to pull the QDSS boards out and run the
> machine as a standard VAX.
It is so ugly, noone in their normal PCish minds locally should bid on
it. So, maybe I will have a chance at it in a reasonable sort of way.
The machine is just the main tower box, and nothing else. It does have
a TK70 tape, but I was unable to open it up on the pallet and see what
was inside. There were no other bits and pieces with it. I was thinking
I could run it with a VT100ish terminal of some sort, as a bare-bones
system in the basement. How would the front/back cover open up, so
I could do a quick spot check and see what actually was inside?
If it has been gutted, I would probably pass, but if it was mostly
there, it might be worth looking at.
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
Thanks!
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA20871
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:16:32 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 16 08:17:01 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA20866
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:16:26 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA06715 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:17:01 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812152217.JAA06715(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:17:01 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
Goodness, that was a lot of email :-) I spent the night playing with
the Graphviz tools, and my first drawing of the UNIX family tree is now on
the web page I mentioned yesterday
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/
I've fixed the broken HTML so that Lynx will read the pages. I haven't
had a chance to convert all the version/date information that was sent in,
and I probably won't get to it before January.
Mind you, if people convert it into the file format I'm using, and mail it
to me, then it will be included immediately :-)
Anyway, thanks for all the feedback, and I'll get to it eventually.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA20983
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:32:08 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Wed Dec 16 08:31:08 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA20978
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:31:55 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm8-123.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.123])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA10882
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:31:16 +0500
Message-Id: <199812152231.DAA10882(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:31:08 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> [...] the manpages are in user/man/manX
> as to source pages.
This is definitely plain 4.3 vintage, not Tahoe vintage. This does not
necessarily mean that other parts of the system are straight 4.3, though,
they could easily be Tahoe vintage. What version of Sendmail does it ship
with?
> I was thinking it had timezones, though.
Well, every UNIX system has some kind of timezone system, the question
is what kind. On plain 4.3 it just remembers "OK, I'm 8 hours behind
Greenwich" or so. On Tahoe it has a pile of zoneinfo files trying to
describe the timezone and daylight saving time rules for every city in the
world. I think these files are in /etc/zoneinfo, or maybe
/usr/lib/zoneinfo, something like that.
> Granted, but the AOS system felt very unmodified, subjectively. So,
> I was not thinking it was almost Reno, or somewhere close to that.
Well, that's good.
> Knowing anything of the detailed structure helps me to place it
> developmentally.
Then why don't you take its source and the sources for 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe,
or whatever you suspect it is, and see for yourself? In my directory on
minnie (Distributions/4bsd) you can find the full sources for 4.3 (both
plain and Rev 2), but unfortunately not for Tahoe (Rick Copeland hasn't
been able to read that part of the Tahoe tape due to media defects).
However, the CSRG Archives CD-ROMs have the full sources for everything,
including Tahoe.
> OK, the AOS seemed to have a disklabel, but of a different format from
> later releases.
Is the command actually called disklabel, or is it called something like
format or chpt? (This is how it's called under SunOS and Ultrix,
respectively, and they are indeed incompatible.)
> What would one use to differentiate the Lite from earlier systems?
If you are trying to tell between 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite, don't bother.
If you system boots, it can't be Lite. "Lite" means that there are no
binaries, only sources, and the sources won't build because about one half
of them is deleted. Now, it's true that there had been some changes to the
source tree between the 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite releases. If you want to see
if these changes have been incorporated into your vendor release, check the
Sendmail version number. For 4.4BSD it's 8.1. For 4.4BSD-Lite it's
8.6.something aka 8.7 Beta Rev something.
> It is running gcc at the 2.5.8 level.
Since I generally don't do gcc, I don't know anything about its version
numbers. However, just because it's gcc the system has to belong to Class
3. This is my own classification. Class 1 is True UNIX(R). Everything I
develop under Quasijarus Project will also belong to Class 1. It includes
everything from the original PDP-11 UNIX to 4.3BSD-Tahoe. Class 2 is
4.3BSD-Reno. In some respects it's still True UNIX (the compiler is pcc and
the kernel is 90% pure), but in other respects it's fallen (the directory
hierarchy is turned upside down and the evil spirit of POSIX starts to
creep in). Class 3 is Net/2, 4.4BSD-*, and Free/Net/OpenBSD. These are 100%
fallen (the evil spirit POSIX runs the sinful world, VAX support in the
kernel permanently broken, the compiler is gcc).
> The machine is just the main tower box, and nothing else. It does have
> a TK70 tape [...]
What else do you need? The disks are internal, and you do have a tape
drive. In fact, not just "a" tape drive, but a TK70, one of the best.
Unfortunately it can't write TK50 tapes, but it can read them, and its
native format is 3 times denser than the TK50 one and much faster too.
> I was thinking
> I could run it with a VT100ish terminal of some sort [...]
Sure! You say it's badged as a VAXstation, so you'll probably need to
pull two or three boards out to make it use the serial console.
> [...] as a bare-bones system [...]
What do you mean "bare-bones"? It's a VAX! What can be more powerful? It
has a KA650 CPU, which is not bad at all (2.8 VUPs), and you can upgrade it
to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660 (5 VUPs) with a single board swap (the
memory is the same for all). KA650/655 is already supported by 4.3BSD-Reno
and Ultrix, and will be supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1 as soon as I
release it. KA660 is not supported yet, but it will only take a dozen lines
or so to add this support.
> How would the front/back cover open up, so
> I could do a quick spot check and see what actually was inside?
There is nothing interesting in the back. The front door opens
trivially, just push the handle and swing the door open. You'll a 12-slot
backplane with a cover over each slot. The covers are supposed to have
labels on them. Reading them from right to left, you should see the CPU
(KA650-BA), memory (some variant of MS650), Ethernet (DELQA-SA), a disk
controller (probably KDA50 or KFQSA), and the TK70 controller (TQK70). If
all these pieces are there, you are all set! Of course if there is more
stuff there you are even more lucky.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA21142
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:12:56 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 09:06:19 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA21137
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:12:47 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27350;
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:19 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199812152306.SAA27350(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: VAXen funzies.... (gotta start somewhere).
In-Reply-To: <199812152231.DAA10882(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Michael Sokolov at "Dec 15, 98 10:31:08 pm"
To: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:19 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> > How would the front/back cover open up, so
> > I could do a quick spot check and see what actually was inside?
>
> There is nothing interesting in the back. The front door opens
> trivially, just push the handle and swing the door open. You'll a 12-slot
> backplane with a cover over each slot. The covers are supposed to have
> labels on them. Reading them from right to left, you should see the CPU
> (KA650-BA), memory (some variant of MS650), Ethernet (DELQA-SA), a disk
> controller (probably KDA50 or KFQSA), and the TK70 controller (TQK70). If
> all these pieces are there, you are all set! Of course if there is more
> stuff there you are even more lucky.
This one does not have a handle that I can find. There is a sliding
door over the tape drive, and then a plastic key sticks out the front
of the panel kind of like the keylock on a pc. If that key is the
handle, then, I will open it up tomorrow when I visit surplus again
to pick up a postscript printer, and see what is there. If that key
is not the handle, then it was not obvious what was on that side of
the box that should be the ``handle'' to open it up.
Bob
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA21280
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:54:57 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Wed Dec 16 09:54:10 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA21274
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:54:42 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm6-22.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.22])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA10978
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:54:21 +0500
Message-Id: <199812152354.EAA10978(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 15 Dec 1998 23:54:10 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: VAXen funzies.... (gotta start somewhere).
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> There is a sliding
> door over the tape drive, and then a plastic key sticks out the front
> of the panel kind of like the keylock on a pc.
The sliding window (yes, the DEC docs call it a window and not a door)
and the key are there to control access to the tape drive, to the disk
drive control buttons, to the HALT button, to the power switch, and to the
handle that opens the front door (the one you are looking for). The key has
3 positions: top. middle, and bottom. When the key is in the top position,
the window cannot be lowered at all, and the machine is secure. When the
key is in the middle position, the window can be lowered partially, and you
can access the tape drive, the disk drive control buttons, and the halt
button, but not the power switch or the front door handle. When the key is
in the bottom position, the window can be lowered completely and you can
access everything.
> If that key is the
> handle, then, I will open it up tomorrow when I visit surplus again
> to pick up a postscript printer, and see what is there. If that key
> is not the handle, then it was not obvious what was on that side of
> the box that should be the ``handle'' to open it up.
Turn the key to the bottom position. Lower the window all the way down.
Near the bottom of the opening you'll see the power switch and the handle
I'm talking about. This handle moves horizontally (left and right). I don't
have one of those boxes in front of me and I don't remember whether you
need to push it to the left or to the right, but I'm sure you can figure it
out experimentally.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA22380
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:26:03 +1100 (EST)
>From "James E. Carpenter" <jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net> Wed Dec 16 15:25:32 1998
Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA22375
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:25:53 +1100 (EST)
Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13])
by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24172;
Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:25:41 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net)
Received: from zach1.tiac.net (zach1.tiac.net [206.119.129.250])
by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26527;
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:26:35 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net)
Received: (from jimc@localhost)
by zach1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19173;
Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:25:34 -0500
From: "James E. Carpenter" <jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net>
Message-Id: <199812160525.AAA19173(a)zach1.tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
To: kahn(a)tholian.net (Joey KAHN)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:25:32 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <36766225.6955995B(a)tholian.net> from "Joey KAHN" at Dec 15, 98 08:20:37 am
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> All I recall about pre 4.0 was that we were using SunOS 3.5 in '88. I'd
> like to think 3.2 came out in '85 or '86--but memory isn't what it used
> to be...
I just took a quick look at my SunOS 3.2 tapes. The copyright file says:
Copyright (c) 1986 by Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Most of the files seem to be dated September 1986. Many others are dated
July 1986.
- Jim
--
James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net
6 Munroe Drive
Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W
PGP: 7ADE9D99 Fingerprint: 8D AF 63 EC D3 51 14 3E F1 59 8A 68 32 63 3F 8E
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA24140
for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:28:03 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Dec 17 01:20:18 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA24134
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:27:53 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28340;
Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199812161520.KAA28340(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore?
In-Reply-To: <199812160525.AAA19173(a)zach1.tiac.net> from "James E. Carpenter" at "Dec 16, 98 00:25:32 am"
To: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net (James E. Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)
Cc: kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> > All I recall about pre 4.0 was that we were using SunOS 3.5 in '88. I'd
> > like to think 3.2 came out in '85 or '86--but memory isn't what it used
> > to be...
>
> I just took a quick look at my SunOS 3.2 tapes. The copyright file says:
>
> Copyright (c) 1986 by Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> Most of the files seem to be dated September 1986. Many others are dated
> July 1986.
Speaking of old SunOS tapes..... I have a friend that dug out a pair
of SunOS 1.1 tapes that he has had for years. Alas, they are unreadable.
Is there any way to rewrite those tapes from anyones archival materials?
Sun has graciously allowed pre-sparc materials to be available on-line
in the German Sun3 archives. All they have seems to be SunOS-4.1.1,
though. I am wondering if there is any interest in some of the early
Sun tapes? Are the 1.1 tapes basically a 4.2BSD port? Are they in
QIC-11 or QIC-24 format?
Thanks
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA24206
for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:35:36 +1100 (EST)
>From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Thu Dec 17 01:33:06 1998
Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA24201
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:35:27 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22901; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199812161533.JAA22901(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
In-Reply-To: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Organization: The University of Chicago
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> I was thinking of trying to update my `History of UNIX' diagram at
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, to bring it up
> to date and make it more accurate.
Here are a few dates I was able to find, in the format from your
web page:
sysV
Name: System V
Date: 1983-01
Reference: System V Release Description, title page
sysVr2
Name: System V Release 2
Date: 1984-04
Reference: System V manual for 3B2, title page
sunos2
Name: SunOS 2.0
Date: 1985-05-15
Reference: SunOS 2.0 manual, title page
sunos3
Name: SunOS 3.0
Date: 1986-02-17
Reference: SunOS 3.0 manual, title page
pwb1.0
Name: PWB/UNIX 1.0
Date: 1977-07-1
Reference: /usr/news/pibs in the archived PWB distribution
# prerelease test versions: 1977-06-6, 1977-06-13
eric
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA24733
for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:01:55 +1100 (EST)
>From Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Thu Dec 17 03:59:44 1998
Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id FAA24728
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:01:45 +1100 (EST)
Received: from Corp.Sun.COM ([129.145.35.78]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id KAA15352; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:00:28 -0800
Received: from vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM by Corp.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3)
id KAA18213; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:00:27 -0800
Received: from vrytekai (vrytekai [129.145.71.165])
by vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA02912;
Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:59:44 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199812161759.JAA02912(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:59:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore?
To: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Cc: kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-MD5: jVHzocTqqQz3Joe9NWAsQQ==
X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hey, Robert-
do you know if anybody from Sun Legal ever officially gave the okay
for that, because, as I was telling Warren, I have most SunOSes from
the very first V7 variant that they shipped, through the present day,
and it'd be a fairly simple matter to spool all of the sun1, sun2, and sun3
ones that are readable (should be a lot, they've been stored in carefully
climate-controlled and proper containers) to disk, and set the archives up
with them. There are some really neat innovations in older SunOS, and it'd
be neat to compare them, and try to track the tech-crossfeeding with the
4BSD trees, and early SunOSes. There's a lot of actual hands-on mucking
around by Bill Joy in some of the earliest releases.
--Bill
>From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore?
>To: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net (James E. Carpenter)
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)
>Cc: kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>> > All I recall about pre 4.0 was that we were using SunOS 3.5 in '88. I'd
>> > like to think 3.2 came out in '85 or '86--but memory isn't what it used
>> > to be...
>>
>> I just took a quick look at my SunOS 3.2 tapes. The copyright file says:
>>
>> Copyright (c) 1986 by Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>
>> Most of the files seem to be dated September 1986. Many others are dated
>> July 1986.
>
>Speaking of old SunOS tapes..... I have a friend that dug out a pair
>of SunOS 1.1 tapes that he has had for years. Alas, they are unreadable.
>Is there any way to rewrite those tapes from anyones archival materials?
>Sun has graciously allowed pre-sparc materials to be available on-line
>in the German Sun3 archives. All they have seems to be SunOS-4.1.1,
>though. I am wondering if there is any interest in some of the early
>Sun tapes? Are the 1.1 tapes basically a 4.2BSD port? Are they in
>QIC-11 or QIC-24 format?
>
>Thanks
>
>Bob Keys
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a
"Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA24883
for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:36:19 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Dec 17 04:29:27 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA24878
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:36:10 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28899;
Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:29:28 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199812161829.NAA28899(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore?
In-Reply-To: <199812161759.JAA02912(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> from Billy Stivers at "Dec 16, 98 09:59:44 am"
To: alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:29:27 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net, kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> Hey, Robert-
>
> do you know if anybody from Sun Legal ever officially gave the okay
> for that, because, as I was telling Warren, I have most SunOSes from
> the very first V7 variant that they shipped, through the present day,
> and it'd be a fairly simple matter to spool all of the sun1, sun2, and sun3
> ones that are readable (should be a lot, they've been stored in carefully
> climate-controlled and proper containers) to disk, and set the archives up
> with them. There are some really neat innovations in older SunOS, and it'd
> be neat to compare them, and try to track the tech-crossfeeding with the
> 4BSD trees, and early SunOSes. There's a lot of actual hands-on mucking
> around by Bill Joy in some of the earliest releases.
>
> --Bill
>
> >Speaking of old SunOS tapes..... I have a friend that dug out a pair
> >of SunOS 1.1 tapes that he has had for years. Alas, they are unreadable.
> >Is there any way to rewrite those tapes from anyones archival materials?
> >Sun has graciously allowed pre-sparc materials to be available on-line
> >in the German Sun3 archives. All they have seems to be SunOS-4.1.1,
> >though. I am wondering if there is any interest in some of the early
> >Sun tapes? Are the 1.1 tapes basically a 4.2BSD port? Are they in
> >QIC-11 or QIC-24 format?
I think there is great potential in all of this.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT.....
Sun apparently gave the OK to a German archive site to put the the stuff
on-line. That is, in fact, where I picked up my sun3 tapes to resurrect
my old box. It only seems be be pre-sparc related 68000 based stuff.
The details were given on the web site, and were discussed on one
of the Sun newsfeeds.
Try the http://doener.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/ site, and it is explained
there. The guy actually got Sun to OK it, as far as I know, but
I have no idea of the exact legalese involved, but memory tells
me it was Sun Germany that gave the go-ahead on it.
The site may have moved to http://sun3arc.krupp.net, since I was
thinking a move was in progress a couple of months back.
I think I got to it via a link from www.sunhelp.com or www.sunfreeware.com.
The idea occurred to me that IFF Sun has gone that far, we should check
into putting the older releases there, too, as they may still exist.
Also, perhaps, as they would fit under the Ancient Unix umbrella, I would
think, then PUPS/UHS should likewise take an interest in such potential.
I would be of the opinion that any of the pre-SysIII/SysV related stuff,
in addition to the purist ATT/Berkeley releases ought to be put back for
archival use, too, as it should be covered under the Ancient Unix umbrella.
If I am too far off on that, let me know. I am but a very minor newbie
bit player in all of this.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA24923
for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:50:29 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Dec 17 04:43:43 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA24918
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:50:21 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28957;
Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:43:44 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199812161843.NAA28957(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS Tapes for UHS archives?????
In-Reply-To: <199812161759.JAA02912(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> from Billy Stivers at "Dec 16, 98 09:59:44 am"
To: alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:43:43 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net, kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> Hey, Robert-
>
> do you know if anybody from Sun Legal ever officially gave the okay
> for that, because, as I was telling Warren, I have most SunOSes from
> the very first V7 variant that they shipped, through the present day,
> and it'd be a fairly simple matter to spool all of the sun1, sun2, and sun3
> ones that are readable (should be a lot, they've been stored in carefully
> climate-controlled and proper containers) to disk, and set the archives up
> with them. There are some really neat innovations in older SunOS, and it'd
> be neat to compare them, and try to track the tech-crossfeeding with the
> 4BSD trees, and early SunOSes. There's a lot of actual hands-on mucking
> around by Bill Joy in some of the earliest releases.
>
> --Bill
It would be fun to see some of Bill Joy's hacks....(:+}}.....
I went to the archive site http://sun3arc.krupp.net
and it attributes the permission to archive materials to a
Mr. Knieriem of SUN Germany, Research and Education.
One of the UHS folks might try to contact said Mr. Knieriem
to see if adding some of our other early stuff would be feasible.
The sun3arc site only has binaries, though.
I would assume the PUPS/UHS archives might work out some kind
of binary and source arrangement, perhaps?
Someone other than the tailwagging newbie here, should persue
this and see where it goes?
Mebbie we has started somethin' 'ere, methinks....(:+}}.....
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA25126
for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:45:26 +1100 (EST)
>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Thu Dec 17 05:47:37 1998
Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)[12.7.121.245])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA25121
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:45:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (erin@localhost)
by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA24022
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:47:39 -0800
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:47:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
Reply-To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PDP-11/73
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981216113259.23904B-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
So get this...
I downloaded the machine emulators package and the binaries for Unix
version 7 from the PUPS ftp site, hoping that I could use it to create a
bootable disk image to put on my PDP-11/73 that would run getty on one of
the serial ports besides the console... I compiled the emulators on a
Slackware Linux 2.0.30 machine, and they seemed to compile OK. From the
emulator I followed the instructions for booting Unix 7. I had the
following error every time I tried booting:
Trap stack push abort, PC: 004567 (MOV R3,(SP))
Anybody have a clue why this is happening?
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
nondisclosure clause in SCO license
by Eric Fischer
Does anyone know how serious SCO is about enforcing the nondisclosure
clause from the Ancient Unix license? I'm referring to this one:
8.4 (a) LICENSEE agrees that it shall hold all parts of the
SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement in confidence for
SCO. LICENSEE further agrees that should it make such disclosure
of any or all of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS (including methods or
concepts utilized therein) to anyone to whom such disclosure is
necessary to the use for which rights are granted hereunder,
LICENSEE shall appropriately notify each such person to whom any
such disclosure is made that such disclosure is made in
confidence and shall be kept in confidence and have each such
person sign a confidentiality agreement containing restrictions
on disclosure substantially similar to those set forth herein.
So if I mention to someone that (for instance) the Sixth Edition
version of ed didn't have the "j" command but it was in PWB and the
Seventh Edition, and I know this from reading the source code, are the
SCO police going to come after me?
eric
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15475
for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:23:08 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 15 08:23:22 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15470
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:23:02 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04880; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:23:22 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812142223.JAA04880(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: nondisclosure clause in SCO license
To: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:23:22 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199812142217.QAA03614(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Dec 14, 98 04:17:04 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Eric Fischer:
> Does anyone know how serious SCO is about enforcing the nondisclosure
> clause from the Ancient Unix license? I'm referring to this one:
>
> 8.4 (a) LICENSEE agrees that it shall hold all parts of the
> SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement in confidence for
> SCO. LICENSEE further agrees that should it make such disclosure
> of any or all of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS (including methods or
> concepts utilized therein) to anyone to whom such disclosure is
> necessary to the use for which rights are granted hereunder,
> LICENSEE shall appropriately notify each such person to whom any
> such disclosure is made that such disclosure is made in
> confidence and shall be kept in confidence and have each such
> person sign a confidentiality agreement containing restrictions
> on disclosure substantially similar to those set forth herein.
>
> So if I mention to someone that (for instance) the Sixth Edition
> version of ed didn't have the "j" command but it was in PWB and the
> Seventh Edition, and I know this from reading the source code, are the
> SCO police going to come after me?
>
> eric
I hope not Eric. I'll ask SCO for their impressions, and will pass them
back on to the mailing list.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15495
for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:28:32 +1100 (EST)
>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Tue Dec 15 08:31:14 1998
Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)[12.7.121.245])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15490
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:28:24 +1100 (EST)
Received: from localhost (erin@localhost)
by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA00117
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:31:14 -0800
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:31:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: PDP-11/73 problems
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981214140751.32409C-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
I recently bought a PDP-11/73. It has one RD-52A MFM hard drive that
boots up to RSTS, eight serial ports (besides the console), and what looks
like a SCSI connector on the back (labeled TK25, so I assume this is the
tape drive connector).
I have connected it to my PC and I am able to either boot it up from the
hard drive or start up into the ROM monitor. Unfortunately, at this point
I can't continue because the PDP won't receive anything through the
console serial port.
Does anybody know if there are any quirks about the serial port on this
machine that would cause this (if, for instance, the PDP-11 required some
sort of handshaking that my PC doesn't do). Also, there is a block of dip
switches on the CPU card that appear to affect booting and serial port
stuff. Does anyone know where there is a list of what these switches
control? Furthermore.... Between the cryptically labeled switch that
chooses monitor or boot mode and the knob that changes the baud rate is a
knob with three settings labeled with an arrow, a talking head, and an
uppercase T with an arrow orbiting it. What does this knob do?
Finally, assuming that the UART on the CPU board is fried and the entire
CPU board needs to be replaced before it will work again, what are the
chances I could get someone who has the Unix source code to compile me a
kernel that uses one of the other serial ports as the console?
Thanks in advance for all of the help that I know you people will send me.
8^)
-- Erin Corliss
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15515
for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:30:03 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 15 08:30:20 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15504
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:29:56 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04928; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:30:20 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812142230.JAA04928(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 problems
To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:30:20 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981214140751.32409C-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Dec 14, 98 02:31:14 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Erin W. Corliss:
> Finally, assuming that the UART on the CPU board is fried and the entire
> CPU board needs to be replaced before it will work again, what are the
> chances I could get someone who has the Unix source code to compile me a
> kernel that uses one of the other serial ports as the console?
> -- Erin Corliss
What version of UNIX are you running on it?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15610
for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:00:16 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 15 08:59:53 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA15605
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:00:03 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU;
Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:59:53 -0500
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:59:53 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <981214175953.2f000656(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 problems
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>I have connected it to my PC and I am able to either boot it up from the
>hard drive or start up into the ROM monitor. Unfortunately, at this point
>I can't continue because the PDP won't receive anything through the
>console serial port.
Am I correct in assuming that up until RSTS/E is started, the console
serial port seems to work fine? i.e. you can talk to ODT?
>Does anybody know if there are any quirks about the serial port on this
>machine that would cause this (if, for instance, the PDP-11 required some
>sort of handshaking that my PC doesn't do).
RSTS/E might be picky about parity bits in some cases. (Heaven knows
that it's incredibly picky about some other things!)
On the other hand, your PC might not be seeing the RTS/CTS (I forget
which one it'll actually be looking for) and this is the reason your
keystrokes never go out. Or it might not be seeing DSR and refusing
to send keystrokes because of this. Have you configured your comm
software for XON/XOFF and *not* hardware flow control?
> Also, there is a block of dip
>switches on the CPU card that appear to affect booting and serial port
>stuff. Does anyone know where there is a list of what these switches
>control?
>From a list that John Wilson supplied to me once:
dip switch near handle
1 on disables console terminal (factory use only)
2-4 off off off boot auto according to the dialog mode settings
off off on boot dev. # 1 in dialog mode settings.
off on off " " 2 "
off on on " " 3 "
on off off " " 4 "
on off on " " 5 "
on on off " " 6 "
on on on if sw. 1 off, power up into ODT
if sw. 1 on , run self-test disg. in a cont loop
5 off enters dialog mode on power up
6-8 on on on 38400 baud rate console.
on on off 19200
on off on 9600
on off off 4800
off on on 2400
off on off 1200
off off on 600
off off off 300
All of these s/b turned OFF if you have the console patch panel rotary
switch connected to the cpu.
rotary switch positions definitions.
switch pos.s v v
baud rate auto boot dialog mode
38400 0 8
19200 1 9
9600 2 10
4800 3 11
2400 4 12
1200 5 13
600 6 14
300 7 15
> Furthermore.... Between the cryptically labeled switch that
>chooses monitor or boot mode and the knob that changes the baud rate is a
>knob with three settings labeled with an arrow, a talking head, and an
>uppercase T with an arrow orbiting it. What does this knob do?
It selects power-on mode. I think arrow means to boot straight from the
default device, talking head means to go to interactive console dialog,
and the T with the circle around it means infinite test loop.
>Finally, assuming that the UART on the CPU board is fried and the entire
>CPU board needs to be replaced before it will work again, what are the
>chances I could get someone who has the Unix source code to compile me a
>kernel that uses one of the other serial ports as the console?
I'm sure it can be done, but I don't know of any that are easily persuaded
to do this! It'd be far easier to disable your CPU board's console
port and drop in a separate DLV11-type interface.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15820
for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:44:03 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 15 09:44:25 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15815
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:43:55 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05594 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:44:25 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Unix History Diagram
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:44:25 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I was thinking of trying to update my `History of UNIX' diagram at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, to bring it up
to date and make it more accurate. The current status of my update is at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/
I'm missing details on many of the commercial versions of UNIX:
+ SunOS/Solaris
+ SysVR4.x
+ Ultrix
+ Xenix
+ Unixware :-)
+ BSDI stuff
+ lots more
If anybody can supply release dates and relationships for systems that I
don't have yet, could you email them to me with a reference where possible.
This is going to be a back-burner project, I'll do a bit here and there, but
hopefully by sometime next year we'll have a large wall-sized family tree
for UNIX.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16605
for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:23:51 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Tue Dec 15 13:23:10 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16600
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:23:39 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm9-155.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.155])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA09225
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:23:16 +0500
Message-Id: <199812150323.IAA09225(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 15 Dec 1998 03:23:10 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> The current status of my update is at:
>
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/
I have looked at it. Note that the data files are not hyperlinked. I
don't think this is intentional, is it?
Being the TUHS 4BSD Coordinator :-), I feel obligated to do some work on
the 4bsd data file. Quoting:
> 3bsd
> Name: 3BSD
> Date: 1980-03
> Reference: last-mod timestamps in Distributions/ucb/3bsd.tar
> Successor to 32V
> Code taken from 2bsd
> # virtual memory, page replacement,
> # demand paging
>
> 4bsd
> Name: 4BSD
> Date: 1980-10
> Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 164
> Successor to 3bsd
Are you sure that virtual memory appears first in 3BSD? I have always
thought that it's a 4BSD milestone. Page replacement and demand paging
probably go with it.
> 4.2bsd
> Name: 4.2BSD
> Date: 1983-09
> Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 164
> Successor to 4.1cbsd
I would add the following comment:
> # Landmark filesystem change.
> # VAX hardware support extended to 11/730.
> # Now runs on 11/780, 11/750, 11/730.
Further:
> 4.3bsd
> Name: 4.3BSD
> Date: 1986-06
> Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 165
> Successor to 4.2bsd
I would add:
> Code taken from DEC Ultrix with DEC's blessing
> # DNS added to the standard libc
> # (no MX records in Sendmail, though).
> # Added DEC's VAX 8600 and TMSCP support code
> # with DEC's blessing.
> # Added kernel-only support for MicroVAX II
> # (KA630). Without DEC's help!
> # It's unusable, though.
Sorry, I don't know the Ultrix version (don't even know if it's a
release and not some DEC internal code), but it's obviously among the very
first.
Further:
> 4.3tahoe
> Name: 4.3BSD Tahoe
> Date: 1988-06
> Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 165
> Successor to 4.3bsd
I would add:
> Code taken from CCI's 4.2BSD-based vendor release
> # tahoe architecture support added.
> # VAX hardware support enhancements:
> # MicroVAX II (KA630) support made actually
> # usable and extended to support QVSS and
> # QDSS graphics.
> # VAX 8200 support added by Chris Torek.
> # New drivers for disk MSCP (U/Q and BI).
> # No distribution tapes for VAX ever shipped,
> # though.
> # MX record support in Sendmail!
Further:
> 4.3reno
> Name: 4.3BSD Reno
> Date: 1990-06
> Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 165
> Successor to 4.3tahoe
I would add:
> Influenced by Sun and DEC vendor systems (NFS and /var)
> # experimental hp300 architecture support added.
> # MicroVAX support extended to KA650 (MicroVAX III)
> # everywhere except the tmscp bootblock.
Back to Warren:
> I'm missing details on many of the commercial versions of UNIX:
>
> + SunOS/Solaris
> [...]
> + Ultrix
I know that SunOS and Ultrix played key roles in the history of BSD
(huge bidirectional exchange of code and ideas between CSRG, Sun, and DEC),
but I don't know anything about versions and such.
> + BSDI stuff
Just like 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD, it's based on Net/2, 4.4BSD-Lite,
and 4.4BSD-Lite2. That's all I know.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA17068
for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:11:10 +1100 (EST)
>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Tue Dec 15 15:10:48 1998
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17063
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:11:01 +1100 (EST)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06982;
Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:10:49 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199812150510.VAA06982(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "15 Dec 1998 03:23:10 GMT."
<199812150323.IAA09225(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:10:48 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 15 Dec 1998 03:23:10 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
...
Are you sure that virtual memory appears first in 3BSD? I have always
thought that it's a 4BSD milestone. Page replacement and demand paging
probably go with it.
The first virtual memory release was 3BSD. It's performance was
significantly improved in 4BSD.
Kirk
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA17294
for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:36:33 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 15 17:36:15 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA17289
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:36:24 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA29268;
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:14 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA16328;
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:15 +1030 (CST)
Message-ID: <19981215180615.H15815(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:15 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 10:44:25AM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
X-Mutt-References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tuesday, 15 December 1998 at 10:44:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
>
> I was thinking of trying to update my `History of UNIX' diagram at
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, to bring it up
> to date and make it more accurate. The current status of my update is at:
>
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/
>
> I'm missing details on many of the commercial versions of UNIX:
>
>> SunOS/Solaris
>> SysVR4.x
>> Ultrix
>> Xenix
>> Unixware :-)
>> BSDI stuff
>> lots more
>
> If anybody can supply release dates and relationships for systems that I
> don't have yet, could you email them to me with a reference where possible.
OK, I've dragged out some old tapes which may be of some interest:
Tandem NonStop UX for Tandem LXN (68020), effectively System V.2, 10
April 1987.
Tandem NonStop-UX B00 for Tandem LXN (68020), effectively System
V.3.0, dated 22 August 1989.
Tandem NonStop-UX B10 for Tandem LXN (68020), effectively System
V.3.1, dated 20 September 1989.
Consensys UNIX System V.4.2.1.0, in PaCkAgE DaTaStReAm mode (yup,
that's what it says). I'm not sure how reliable this is, but the
first package has the PSTAMP destiny921114141358, which presumably can
be interpreted as a date; certainly it's plausible.
BSD BSD/386, version 0.3.2. The tar archive has the date Feb 28 09:18
1992 on the first few files; presumably this is US MST.
Univel Unixware 1.0, also this funny PaCkAgE DaTaStReAm. This one has
a PSTAMP=SVR4.2 11/02/92. I'd assume that they really meant 2
November 1992.
I've got a number of old CDs which I haven't looked at yet. I'd guess
that I have most FreeBSD releases, and we can find the rest.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA18317
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:22:36 +1100 (EST)
>From Joey KAHN <kahn(a)tholian.net> Tue Dec 15 23:20:37 1998
Received: from illustrious (illustrious.concentric.net [207.155.252.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA18312
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:22:26 +1100 (EST)
Received: from tholian.net ([207.155.186.37])
by illustrious (8.9.1/)
id IAA20278; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:22:15 -0500 (EST)
[ConcentricHost SMTP Relay]
Message-ID: <36766225.6955995B(a)tholian.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:20:37 -0500
From: Joey KAHN <kahn(a)tholian.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19981215180615.H15815(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Found this on a sun web page:
SunOS Solaris FCS Comments
OpenWindows
----------- ------- ------- ---------------------------
-----------
3.2
3.3
3.4
3.5
4.0
4.0.2 Sept 89 (386i Roadrunner)
4.0.3 May 89 (Sun2, Sun3/3x, Sun4)
4.0.3c June 89 (SPARC Sun4c only)
4.0.3 PSR_A July 89 (SPARC 470/490 only)
4.1 Mar 90 (3/3x/4/4c except 470/490)
4.1 PSR_A May 90 (SPARC only for 390/490)
4.1.1 1.0 Nov 90 (All Sun3/4's)
OW2.0/3.0
4.1.1B Feb 91 (SPARC only)
OW2.0/3.0
4.1.1.1 July 91 (CTE patches for Sun3/3x)
4.1.1_U1 Nov 91 (Last Sun3/3x release)
4.1.2 1.0.1 Dec 91 (SPARC + Sun4m/600MP Ross)
OW2.0/3.0
4.1.3 1.1A Aug 92 (All SPARC+MP,Viking S10) OW3.0
4.1.3c 1.1C Nov 93 (LX and Classic only) OW3.0
4.1.3_U1 1.1.1 Dec 93 (SPARC,LX,Classic/no-sun4d) OW3.0
4.1.3_U1b 1.1.1B Feb 94 (SPARC3.5/S10,4mm & all 1.1s) OW3.0
4.1.4 1.1.2 Sep 94 (SPARC4m [Colorado CPUs]+new
WS)
5.0 2.0 July 92 (Desktop Sun4c only) OW3.0
5.1 2.1 Dec 92 (All SPARC/no-1000/2000) OW3.1
5.2 2.2 May 93 (All SPARC + 1000/2000) OW3.2
5.3 2.3 Nov 93 (All SPARC + SS10SX) OW3.3
5.3 2.3 5/94 Mar 94 (SS5-audio & Voyager) OW3.3
5.3 2.3 8/94 Sep 94 (All SPARC+SSA+S24 fb)
5.4 2.4 Dec 94 (All SPARC + Intel) OW3.4
5.4 2.4 3/95 Mar 95 (All SPARC+SSA) OW3.4
5.5 2.5 Nov 95 (All SPARC+Fusion-[NO SUN4/SUN4E]+SSA)
OW3.5
All I recall about pre 4.0 was that we were using SunOS 3.5 in '88. I'd
like to think 3.2 came out in '85 or '86--but memory isn't what it used
to be...
More research: first patch in Sun patch library:
Patch-ID# 100001-01
Keywords: cc stack overflow local variable
Synopsis: C compiler: stack overflow: too many local variables
Date: 20-Apr-88
SunOS release:
3.4, 3.5
Sun's bug database still contains bug reports going back to 3.2 (heck,
even 2.2 and 1.0) but none of them have dates ;(((
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA18903
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:10:43 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 01:04:11 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA18895
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:10:33 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26443;
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:04:12 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199812151504.KAA26443(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram
In-Reply-To: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Dec 15, 98 10:44:25 am"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:04:11 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> All,
>
> I was thinking of trying to update my `History of UNIX' diagram at
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, to bring it up
> to date and make it more accurate. The current status of my update is at:
>
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/
>
> I'm missing details on many of the commercial versions of UNIX:
>
> + SunOS/Solaris
> + SysVR4.x
> + Ultrix
> + Xenix
> + Unixware :-)
> + BSDI stuff
> + lots more
A couple of lesser known BSDish oddities from Big Blue....
Add IBM's AOS. That was a straight 4.3BSD port dating from 1987 or 1988.
This was the only official port for the RT-PC hardware.
Add IBM's unofficial ``Reno'' port. That was a somewhere between 4.3/4.4
port dating from 1991 or 1992. It was apparently done by IBM or IBM
contractors. It looks very straight 4.4, in appearance.
Add IBM's unoffical ``4.4Lite'' port. That was a somewhere between 4.4
and the real Lite dating from 1994 or 1995. It was apparently done by
IBM or IBM contractors, with source trees from two development streams
combined together to resolve developmental divergences.
They all were used on the RT-PC hardware (ROMP Risc processor).
The 4.3 is very nice. Code size about 75 megs binary. It runs fine
on a small machine with 8 megs ram and 115 megs HD, or the biggest
RT class machine. The C compilers are slightly broken, but usually
can be worked around (good old pcc seems the best).
The Reno is fair to good, but missing things like working tape I/O.
You can tar or dump, but no other tape functions work correctly.
Code size about 150 megs binary. It needs 16M ram and 300mb HD.
I dunno exactly how ``Reno'' it really is.
The 4.4Lite is fair to good, but still missing working tape I/O.
Code size about 300 megs binary. It needs 16M ram and 300mb HD.
Bloat seems to have set in on this one, since the whole system is
well over 1 gig in size. It barely will run on two 300mb HD.
The login says it is 4.4Lite and not straight 4.4. There is no
indication of how pure ``Lite'' it really is.
I dunno anything about how these originated developmentally, but
the AOS seems to be vanilla 4.3BSD and all else may have developed
from that, possibly after the RT line became back-burner stuff.
I would be very interested in any history from anyone on the list
that was around IBM at the time on these.
.......
Add Xenix for the Radio Shack 16B machines on 8 inch floppers.
That seems to date from around 1982 or 1983, although I have
misplaced my disks on that one, and don't have the machine anymore.
I was thinking someone on the list had one of those beasts running?
That is all I can think of offhand to add.....
Bob Keys
p.s. Anyone got a spare V7ish Xenix they would part with for x86
hardware? I would like to try a native suite rather than
an emulator, if possible. There were one or two such ports
I am thinking like Xenix, Microport, or PC-IX maybe? I just
missed one a few days ago at out state surplus house, when I
picked it up, looked at it, set it down, and then someone
else grabbed it... oh, well....(:+{{.....
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA19970
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:43:04 +1100 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 04:36:37 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA19965
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:42:55 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26799;
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:36:37 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199812151836.NAA26799(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks
In-Reply-To: <19981215122947.B11834(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Dec 15, 98 12:29:47 pm"
To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:36:37 -0500 (EST)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> > A couple of lesser known BSDish oddities from Big Blue....
> >
> > Add IBM's AOS. That was a straight 4.3BSD port dating from 1987 or 1988.
> > This was the only official port for the RT-PC hardware.
>
> I have a paper about this port which claims that it's in fact tahoe or so,
> and has an independent implementation of mmap(). I'll try to dig it up --
>
> I think it was in one of the old Waite Group books.
Please do! I would like to see that. I did see at one time Tahoe
mentioned, but I did not understand how the IBM ports were related
through that. There are so few folks around that know anything about
these IBM critters, even on the old RT newsfeed. Most of the stuff
has become dumpster fodder, sadly, although I had the good fortune
this past week to resurrect two RT's from the dumpster, and get one
up by combining sufficient parts to get it to boot.
What specifically would one look for to exactly differentiate
a vanilla 4.3, from a Tahoe, from a Reno, from a 4.4, from a 4.4Lite,
on non-standard hardware? The books get somewhat obscure on this
unless running VAXen or HP300's or such. The RT is a little bit
non-standard. I was thinking it was a 68000ish machine in IBM's
wrappers, but others have said it was distinctly different from a
68000 based line. Also, I can't find anyone that was in on the
AOS project enough to know from whence it was originally derived.
The dating seems to be 1987 or 1988. Was Tahoe around then?
Salus suggests straight 4.3 was June of 1986, and Tahoe was June
of 1988 (Salus, p. 165). Anyone around CSRG then that remembers
when IBM got what code? Salus does not mention any IBM AOS stuff,
only the mainframe stuff. AOS seems to be mostly a sleeper, almost
forgotten in time.
.....
> > Add IBM's unoffical ``4.4Lite'' port. That was a somewhere between 4.4
> > and the real Lite dating from 1994 or 1995. It was apparently done by
> > IBM or IBM contractors, with source trees from two development streams
> > combined together to resolve developmental divergences.
>
> Someone here had a tape of this, yes?
There is a Finnish repository that has some of it relating to the 4.3
port, and one or two other RTish archives. Try something like jumo.luti.fi,
or jumi.luto.fi, or something like that, but I don't have the url exactly,
and can't find the stick'em note where I ran across it.
Yes, there was an IBM'er that said he had some original tapes. I was
hoping he would check with someone at IBM to see what the status was.
There was a group at Carnegie-Mellon that had some machines with AOS,
but I don't have any pointers to anyone up there, for sure. I would
hope the old RT boxes and AOS would fall under the Antique Unix umbrella,
and thus, be amenable to the PUPS archives scope of things. But, I
am only a newbie voice in the crowd.....
>From what I have found out, there were two install tapes and two boot
floppies.
The main boot floppy is the sautils disk (stand alone utilities).
That then loads a miniroot floppy that does the scripted install.
The scripts don't work unless you have the original tapes, and
the orignal hardware configuration which was a pair of 70mb esdi
drives. The installation needs to be done manually, instead, if
the hardware differs from that. It should be a straight 4.3 style
restore process. I guess they expected only to have dual 70mb
esdi drives in the old RT tower machines, as AOS platforms.
The first tape is the combined root and user dumps to hd0a and hd0g.
The second tape is the source tree dump to hd1g.
> The AOS releases I saw all came with source. I wish IBM would donate the
> bits they wrote -- much information on ROMP processor bugs, etc. simply
> doesn't exist anywhere else.
That is how I understand it. There were some manuals for it, but
noone seems to know anything about those anymore, and what info I
have is more sketchy than for sure. There was also some other machine
called an ``Academic Machine'' that was a siamesed ROMP processor
on a Model 60 PS/2 MCA bus machine. I have not exactly understood
how that thing actually worked, and noone on the net seems to have
one, although there are two ROMP boards that are reputed to still
exist that plug into the MCA Model 60 PS/2 box. Apparently the
Model 60 was the terminal/disk IO system and the ROMP board ran
the BSD.
> Patches to fix this circulated widely -- I recall one _very_ late night
> in Bill Cattey's office at Athena waiting for someone in Stockholm to
> send us a patch so we could make some tapes I needed the next morning.
The thing will tar/dump to the tape, but won't retension or erase
correctly. If you know what that patch was, I would be interested
in it, for sure. I assume it has to do with something like twiddling
the right hardware ports with the right bit patterns, maybe, to run
the retension and erase functions on the hardware. I am curious,
though, and wonder if something like the 4.3 mt, which does work,
would work correctly in the Lite suite. I was of the impression
that there was some binary compatibility between 4.3 and 4.4/4.4-Lite,
but I am not sure.
.....
> > The 4.4Lite is fair to good, but still missing working tape I/O.
> > Code size about 300 megs binary. It needs 16M ram and 300mb HD.
> > Bloat seems to have set in on this one, since the whole system is
> > well over 1 gig in size. It barely will run on two 300mb HD.
> > The login says it is 4.4Lite and not straight 4.4. There is no
> > indication of how pure ``Lite'' it really is.
>
> Wow, I wonder if it really is "Lite". Again... I wish IBM would free
> the relevant bits, we've wanted for a long time to make NetBSD run on
> these beasts. One major obstacle is that nobody at IBM seems to even
> know where the "official" sources are, or who would have authority to
> turn them over.
I have no idea how pure or impure the code is. I came along so late
in the song and dance act that I don't know enough of the internals
to compare, yet. So much to learn..... Years ago I bounced this
off our IBM rep, but went to AIX on the PS/2, instead of the RT BSD.
I did not know very much then, nor now....(:+{{.....
> > I dunno anything about how these originated developmentally, but
> > the AOS seems to be vanilla 4.3BSD and all else may have developed
> > from that, possibly after the RT line became back-burner stuff.
> > I would be very interested in any history from anyone on the list
> > that was around IBM at the time on these.
>
> Me too.
Who all on the list were IBM'ers in that era that might still remember
enough of this to fill us in? The history is half the fun, and sure
makes the perspective on the rest more interesting and well rounded.
Anyone on the list actually playing around and running an RT?
I am beginning to feel very lowendian that I am not on a PDP11, VAX,
HP300 or such.....{:+{{... but, a VAXStation 3500 just appeared
in surplus.... maybe the bidding force will be with me.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA20122
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:15:11 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Wed Dec 16 05:14:23 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA20114
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:14:57 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm8-143.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.143])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA10682
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:14:31 +0500
Message-Id: <199812151914.AAA10682(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:14:23 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: A program to read tapes in a snap
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
While exchanging tapes and tape images with a number of people on this list, I
have mentioned the existence of this program to a number of people, but so far
I haven't given it to anyone. Now I'm posting it to the list for everyone's
benefit. This program can read a tape on a UNIX box without the user having to
know anything about its format. This program automatically determines how many
files are on the tape, what is the record size for each, and whether there are
any oddities such as partial records. It saves each tape file into a separate
disk file and produces a log of everything found on the tape.
It's a simple C program and should compile and run on virtually any UNIX or
UNIX-like system. The original version was written by one guy I met on another
list once and then it was significantly enhanced by me. I include it below as
a uuencoded gzipped tarball.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Enclosure: uuencoded cptape.tar.gz:
begin 644 cptape.tar.gz
M'XL("`ZQ=C8``V-P=&%P92YT87(`[5AM4QLW$.:K]2L$-(,-QOC`.!D[ID,(
MM&D)S$#2-YKIB#N=?<-9<N_D&)KPW[N[.OGN'%+:SD`^Y'8FPTE:[<NS;W)>
MBRL91K%<>D#RVNUNI\.7./?:W1W\RSN[M+;D=9YRWNWN[.[NM+>];6)K[R[Q
M]D,:Y6B:&I%POC2^3CO=?^![.PS.'\.>1Z95M@H1>)UE`0]UPOV)$1/)5AD[
M??'#H#86D6II=GYVD'W[C!T<'>]_=SZH;9XR9ME[M6_JP-Y@-=_G]I-O:B>+
M?6DW*_H,G1WNOWQ]^+`Z[JE_K[-=J/^=I\C6WNU6]?\89`N4)U($*1><%I'B
M6DF>CK1I\DDL_$@-N13^R!Y3HXB4T<"?RHE(A)$\B-(K1B="!3S6PR%>,B/D
MA*8R%B;2BHM+/36@S-=)P-/H+YFV7`,A13+]-WKLB1)C&?`U_&XIM=;DLY%,
M)%.*1RDI-C.]&43#R,#M/Z=2F4C$7$W'ES+A.B06$@1V$3OJK(/O@?2CL8@9
M)H9!+V:1&?&VUVCQ-R.9VEL`5B*Y#[@9L"*R(OQIDH`>,!)<-#JY:?$C:*AF
M%*4,.%.MR$I%<*-DP96<D>8F03[3TSC@"O&*XYM,/'#-!5*#CDR3^0$'8."+
M\$ZF*FNU/$ST&(U))$![,I=D#R&DJ.!2T@V1@K@XUK.T-X_"9DSF6!>?IQ/`
M0L1[C!&X^8;#&(/@P$R$=04`?!_YH,SR$EQ-+EO#5I-MP=F62L:FC6""D%D4
MQ[F?=P667*:L6(P60]?+E^:VK]FH"1Y'J4$+`88\K5)[2E;GR<B<IM;7,Z_L
M1']8'??T_]W=;KO0_]O(MMWUJO[_&+2USOBZ:P^;W->3FV*90.%,U972,^4*
M)99J:$9P:8NQU4CY\33`OF""2+=&>X6MT%<F+F_))%$+7.E-ND65#KML-8#B
MA39X\N+M48V>!J@CI#7?@U7Y7J3]3(-4010R!L."#Z71$\/KC3Z3UT8FT!A'
M$.!UV!3)<+Z)K+`5J:")?\&R?JX?U)V_^NW0FM#=>=:I;:WS?1_]IZFF^1C&
M6;W3:/*QN+9X7<;:O[)MI`8$H&(W.3\X?T7GJ6M</^W_@LW3Z_[8RABWR'`6
M:`2_COT[!*-@A"(N#7+*;O;9T:OC0[Z>'?79!X860@*;R(<XI=%001,D?R^G
M82B3B\R3=WWBG+/$&MRP`57:GI$:D*HG,)\&O+UP`X\@H'#BY?Q&HU&X(IVP
M!"[LQ!?/[M1(\]%'C`!L/$:(ZOW^W)2-C0;_P&K$?'EC9(J#$GAKE#G6K-K\
M`-;X9PZ9];GIP@<94(/DJ>?\SWF;Y*/J"8C427UE_OQ907X\2:290H9X?5I!
MY'%^8\R$XG0)0U:[Y3*&MT!9P6!0T(!'#M&&W8(3,LF/=2KK"%\#3FJX7;0)
M'DF3J0U'CQ,O&4<\\CHR=8^6M_!ODD`@POK*&W!C+)(K&+0P%*%L:2JN/FEO
M3W]7*TT7/[J7?6]LN$4><U)Q:_^@?[G98%!ZAQJ$SQJ7P580DD&4P0%`$D:I
MAB=#((QP[08>:`CHI^E"N,Z2R!BI,`D<J,MWH.IP.'>/MMS_9G'&]_B3N(1(
M,\,5:!Y'\@<US8O0\H29EFR[R5>._KN6.U2EF=R\@$`T=464O!`]S!H(%KV9
M2C?:W6YW;KGE&O!-[_X$0TF?3;!"?G@VS+94LWRIY34-.X6:_323%HIQ>5#H
M!R4CLU#^+!(%D>PY8%<!TW)F8U'B)(a)E%N,LH.U/S*"S@[A*J$.;:IS'^'W;<
MK_HVR^=B8YLG1I;SL(U?ME'D[:TDR+E0NK=<B$3#EL==@2?AI>+U^K90\S;G
M2IG:]2V>A?:$935]<OKF['#_X/O#E[AKW:)YAB_+.HQ<'WZB),/W=I#ANL_L
M1%[';3?$\-`OS!(WY.@'QH"?O#T^MJ>E$5@ZL?=H&-QU,9^C',LBWP1GPWAH
M8T";LQ&*KM=]V+//B8(?D!!Q;Z710)`/3X\(WA1^3<#OD[I/*U]`TUN+UWH6
MO;(C[AEB@PT!NH)O>':(:6QZ[NZW[JXUC1IUD3^+AK46HY^Y\/%C]J9!X]!D
M:+$>V>2R&MYIP`L^3%,QQ-JW#[\+^-F7V?F.0((DQKR@7K#=Z"_J*_B4#6P7
MCA![1?$<=,U6W"A>SBNM/(:+`C-G\SY4<G<AOAB2"^OTNWZ!(R"LP90B?Y.?
M_G'V\O3D^%?HEIE7-*6S&]0NT9]YN8`$>O'9_Q9QI9-CXY6QR<KH,T^Y/I3'
BEW[O5U1111555%%%%5544445551115\?_0UI&$I7`"@``)6Q
`
end
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA20201
for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:34:19 +1100 (EST)
>From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Wed Dec 16 05:34:00 1998
Received: from fw0.transarc.com (xfw.transarc.com [192.54.226.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA20196
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:34:09 +1100 (EST)
Received: from mailhost2.transarc.com (mailhost2.transarc.com [158.98.14.14]) by fw0.transarc.com (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10918; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:32:58 -0500 (EST)
Received: from smithfield.transarc.com (smithfield.transarc.com [158.98.16.10]) by mailhost2.transarc.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id OAA01327; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:34:00 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:34:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com>
Reply-To: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks
In-Reply-To: <199812151836.NAA26799(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981215141724.4474C-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> [...] The RT is a little bit
> non-standard. I was thinking it was a 68000ish machine in IBM's
> wrappers, but others have said it was distinctly different from a
> 68000 based line.
No, the ROMP (the RT's CPU) is a RISC CPU. I have a processor reference
for the C-ROMP (the CMOS version that was on the 6152 Academic
Workstation), but I only have hardcopy.
> Yes, there was an IBM'er that said he had some original tapes. I was
> hoping he would check with someone at IBM to see what the status was.
That would probably be me. I'm still looking - I have a call in right now
to someone who might be able to help.
> There was a group at Carnegie-Mellon that had some machines with AOS,
> but I don't have any pointers to anyone up there, for sure.
Best bet would probably be someone at the ITC or the CS department, or the
Andrew Consortium. Don't really know many of those folks anymore, though,
and not sure if anyone from the right time period is still around.
> [...] There was also some other machine
> called an ``Academic Machine'' that was a siamesed ROMP processor
> on a Model 60 PS/2 MCA bus machine. I have not exactly understood
> how that thing actually worked, and noone on the net seems to have
> one, although there are two ROMP boards that are reputed to still
> exist that plug into the MCA Model 60 PS/2 box. Apparently the
> Model 60 was the terminal/disk IO system and the ROMP board ran
> the BSD.
I have one in my living room.... Yes, your description is pretty much
correct. The C-ROMP co-processor plugs into the Model 60 (though I don't
know why it couldn't be used with another type of Microchannel PS/2). The
co-processor card has the C-ROMP CPU, support hardware, and memory. To
IPL the thing, you run a DOS program on the PS/2 that loads the boot
program into the C-ROMP memory, and twiddles some bits that start the
processor. The C-ROMP board pretty much takes over the machine, and uses
the PS/2 itself as an I/O processor.
--Pat.
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: John Lions
by Dave Horsfall
It's possible that my incoherent outburst may have offended a few people,
in which case I apologise. In my defence, I would like to say that Dr.
John Lions was my lecturer at Uni of NSW, and I still remember him saying
that he and Ken Robinson (anyone know how he's doing?) saw this article in
CACM, and were going to write off for it. Thus from little acorns do
mighty oak trees grow, or however the aphorism goes...
Requiescat In Pace.
PS: In the "2nd Book," look under the "Acknowledgements" section; I helped
him with the NROFF layout (I printed chapters on an LA36 Duckwriter (as we
called them!) to see how they were formatted).
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 9-track tape interfaces
by David C. Jenner
Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
> A lot, so I snipped it out!
>
As long as this thread is red hot, how about these questions:
I have an M4 Data 9914 tape drive with Pertec and SCSI interfaces.
It will do 800, 1600, 6250. I want to set up and run 2.11BSD on a
Q-Bus system.
1) I'd rather not spend a lot to get a SCSI interface. I now have
Emulex TC02 and Dilog DQ130 Q-Bus controllers. Is there
any way these controllers are going to enable 6250 BPI?
2) Is there another Q-Bus, Pertec controller that will do 6250?
3) If I had a Q-Bus SCSI controller, would it enable 6250?
4) (Already asked in thread) Supposing I get the hardware to work
at 6250, will 2.11BSD handle it?
Thanks,
Dave
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA15025
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:27:55 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 8 06:27:09 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA15020
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:27:28 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU;
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:27:09 -0500
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:27:09 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <981207152709.2f0000e2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>1) I'd rather not spend a lot to get a SCSI interface. I now have
> Emulex TC02 and Dilog DQ130 Q-Bus controllers. Is there
> any way these controllers are going to enable 6250 BPI?
Sure - I use them at 6250 BPI all the time. The controller
doesn't have to know what density the data is at - the formatter
takes care of that. If you absoultely insist on the computer
being able to switch the drive between 1600 and 6250 BPI modes,
you won't be able to achieve this with a TC02 or DQ130 under 2.11BSD,
but this is purely a frill as you can always select the mode from
the drive's front panel.
One thing you do have to worry about is data rate. Pertec
formatted interfaces on "fast" buffered modern drives may want to suck
or spew data at rates that are often too fast for a lowly TC02 or
DQ130's capability to push data over the Q-bus. Most modern Pertec-
formatted drives will let you throttle the rate to something reasonable.
And some more modern Q-bus controllers - like the Dilog DQ152 - have
internal buffers for handling such cases without having to throttle
the drive itself.
>4) (Already asked in thread) Supposing I get the hardware to work
> at 6250, will 2.11BSD handle it?
Absolutely. I use a Fuji 2444 and a Storagetek 2925 with a TC02
and 2.11BSD all the time in 6250 BPI mode. I had to throttle the
data rates on both, but that's not such a big deal.
On the other hand, my Storagetek 2920, which is pretty much a 2925
without the cache option, doesn't let me throttle the data rate
at 6250 mode because there is no effective buffer. These don't
work with my TC02 on a Q-bus machine, but they do work with a TC13
on a Unibus 11/44 or with a DQ152 on a Q-bus -11.
Also keep in mind that some third-party controllers don't interact
well with the fast polling that the most recent Q-bus CPU's can
do. For example, my TC02 won't work at all with
a loaned Mentec M100 (roughly comparable with a 11/93) that I have.
I've never had this problem with 11/83's and slower CPU's.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15470
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:40:18 +1100 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Dec 8 08:33:57 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15465
for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:40:09 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA07800;
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:33:57 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:33:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812072233.OAA07800(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Tim -
Howdy.
> I'm pretty sure that 2.11BSD properly handles TU81 density select
> in its TMSCP driver. (Steve, can you confirm this? I know you've
> made some effort to get write caching to work with TU81's over the years!)
Indeed it does. However TMSCP only defines 800,1600 and 6250 so
on the quad density drive I have the 3200 setting must be selected
manually on the front panel of the tape drive.
Also the 'enable cache' works fine and makes a dramatic difference
on a TU81+ attached to an 11/44. The 'cache enabled' setting is
sticky across open/close cycles so that you set it once manually
when the first reel is loaded. This was done to avoid having to
modify dump/restore/tar/etc
> In any event, remote density selection/reporting is largely a
> frill, as any drive/controller combination that I ever used let you
> explicitly select it with a physical button or a switch and displayed
> the current selection in some useful way on the drive.
Quite so. Eons ago the one Cipher drive supported 800/1600 operation
but the controller (TM11 clone) did not - you just made sure to
select the density on the front panel when loading the tape
Steve
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16643
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:49:04 +1100 (EST)
>From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au> Tue Dec 8 13:48:27 1998
Received: from swag.sw.oz.au (firewall-user(a)gw.softway.com.au [203.31.96.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16638
for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:48:47 +1100 (EST)
Received: from swarm.sw.oz.au (swarm.sw.oz.au [192.41.203.66])
by swag.sw.oz.au (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12733
for <@smtp.sw.oz.au:PUPS@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:48:41 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from peterc@localhost) by swarm.sw.oz.au (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA50560; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:48:27 +1100 (ADST)
From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <13932.41355.645423.303757(a)swarm.sw.oz.au>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:48:27 +1100 (ADST)
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: John Lions
Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023.
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Associate Professor John Lions, who was instrumental in UNIX's
acceptance in Australia, and in its popularity (through his two
books) world wide, died last Saturday morning, after long
illness.
Peter C
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16671
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:52:06 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 8 13:54:59 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16665
for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:51:59 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09118; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:54:59 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812080354.OAA09118(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: John Lions
To: peterc(a)softway.com.au (Peter Chubb)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:54:59 +1100 (EST)
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <13932.41355.645423.303757(a)swarm.sw.oz.au> from Peter Chubb at "Dec 8, 98 02:48:27 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Peter Chubb:
> Associate Professor John Lions, who was instrumental in UNIX's
> acceptance in Australia, and in its popularity (through his two
> books) world wide, died last Saturday morning, after long
> illness.
Gee, that's very bad news.
Thanks for the email, Peter.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA17323
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:20:42 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Tue Dec 8 17:19:34 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA17317
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:20:24 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm6-41.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.41])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA16509
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:19:42 +0500
Message-Id: <199812080719.MAA16509(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 8 Dec 1998 07:19:34 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear Tim,
You write:
> Hmm - you said it has a 40-pin connector.
Yes. A straight flat ribbon cable connects it to the bulkhead, which has
a female 37-lead D-sub connector on the outside.
> Any obvious buffers (or banks of buffers) near the external connector?
I have just spent a couple of hours tracing the etches on this board,
and here is what I have found out. One side of the 40-pin connector is all
ground (well, that's pretty obvious). On other side we have the following.
4 pins are permanently connected to pull-up resistors, and one pin is
permanently connected to a pull-down resistor. The other 15 pins are
connected through jumpers so that the user can connect or disconnect them
on an individual basis. Some of these go to different outputs of a 74S241
(dual 4-bit 3-state buffer), some go to a 7437 (unfamiliar with this IC),
and some go to a missing IC.
Both halves of the 74S241 are permanently enabled. All 8 outputs of this
half are connected to different pins on the connector. 7 of them are
connected in the obvious way, but one is also connected to a pull-up
resistor (purpose non-understood, since the 3-state buffer is always
enabled). The jumpers for all 8 are ON. Then there are 3 pins that go to
the 7437. Although 3 pins of the connector are used for this, 4 pins of the
7437 are used. Two of the connector pins go through simple jumpers, and
both are OFF. The third pin is connected to two different 7437 pins through
different jumpers. One of them is ON and the other is OFF. Finally, there
are 4 pins that connect to a missing IC. The jumpers for all 4 are OFF.
Now, does this tell you anything? :-)
> What are the date codes on the chips?
The most recent dates are mid-1988.
> [Explanation of the mess with host-side density control]
OK, from now on I'll only use the front panel switch for density
selection. :-)
> other times they're used to put the drive into streaming
> vs non-streaming mode, other times it's used to change the speed on
> a streaming drive.
Hmm, this is another big gap in my knowledge. What does streaming vs.
non-streaming mean?
> The QT13 will support either IDEN-style density select or CDC-style
> density select [...]
How does it determine which one to use? Is there a switch on the board?
> Yep, the RC25 also used the LESI bus. (LESI="Low End Storage
> Interconnect".)
Hmm, so then KLESI can do disk MSCP as well as TMSCP, right? Can it do
both simultaneously or only one at a time?
> They all look similar, and have similar mechanics, but the 81's
> electronics can do 6250 BPI, something an 80's can't.
But they are all different CDC Keystones, right? This means that my
Keystone may or may not support 6250 BPI, right? How can I tell?
> No, the Keystone and the Kennedy 9300 are not the same beast. The
> Keystone is a cute little streaming tape drive, while the 9300 is
> a humongous [...]
"Cute little"?!?! I mean, I'm still amazed how I was able to get it
inside my apartment without knocking a couple walls down first! It's
certainly huge compared to the REALLY cute little Cipher we had at CWRU. (I
really miss that Cipher, BTW. Not only is it much smaller, according to
what I have been able to glean from the docs, it's much easier to load
tapes into than the Keystone. But then of course if this Keystone does 6250
BPI I will be much more than happy with it.)
But hey, if the Keystone is a cute little baby, poor CSRG fellows! I
think Kennedy 9300 was their primary machine, and I can just imagine what
it is like if the Keystone is "cute little". Does the 9300 do 6250 BPI?
> [...] vacuum-column 125IPS machine.
Yet another gap in my knowledge. I remember seeing the term "vacuum
columns" in the BSD documentation and having no idea what are they. Could
you enlighten me?
> (I'm sure someone will
> now chime in about the days when Univac UniServo drives ruled the
> earth...)
Just out of curiosity, what are they?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA17591
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:52:37 +1100 (EST)
>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Dec 8 18:49:40 1998
Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA17586
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:52:29 +1100 (EST)
Received: (qmail 17458 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1998 08:00:32 -0000
Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115)
by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Dec 1998 08:00:32 -0000
Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0znIp4-0003mgC; Tue, 8 Dec 98 19:48 AEDT
Received: from localhost (dave@localhost)
by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id TAA14339; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:49:40 +1100
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:49:40 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
X-Sender: dave@fgh
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces
In-Reply-To: <199812080719.MAA16509(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812081928170.14240-100000@fgh>
X-No-Archive: Yes
X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk"
X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On 8 Dec 1998, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> on an individual basis. Some of these go to different outputs of a 74S241
> (dual 4-bit 3-state buffer), some go to a 7437 (unfamiliar with this IC),
>From my TTL Data Book: Quadruple 2-input positive-NAND buffer (Y=AB bar).
Outputs are 3, 6, 8, 11. Corresponding inputs are 1/2, 4/5, 9/10, 12/13.
Vcc is 14, GND is 7.
> Hmm, this is another big gap in my knowledge. What does streaming vs.
> non-streaming mean?
Streaming means that data can be supplied to the tape (or read from) fast
enough to keep it moving, as opposed stop/start (or more likely, stop
backspace start). Requires double-buffering somewhere.
> Yet another gap in my knowledge. I remember seeing the term "vacuum
> columns" in the BSD documentation and having no idea what are they. Could
> you enlighten me?
ROTFL :-) Look at an old Sci-Fi movie some time, in particular the
obligatory IBM tape drives spinning back and forth. The vacuum columns
were buffers; columns into which bits of the tape were sucked so as to
keep the tape moving past the heads at constant velocity (not sure how
good the clock recovery was in those days) whilst the reels did their
thing. The column has various pairs of pressure sensors, between which
the tape was kept for that particular mode; if it crept past one hole,
it upset the pressure differential, and the pumps came into play...
Remember, folks; this real-time stuff was *before* micro-chips! I still
remember looking at the old Cipher (I have the magic codes somewhere, that
allowed it to load with the door open etc) aghast that it had no vacuum
columns, but swing-arms instead...
> > (I'm sure someone will
> > now chime in about the days when Univac UniServo drives ruled the
> > earth...)
>
> Just out of curiosity, what are they?
Big BIG tape drives - real Sci-Fi material :-)
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA17635
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:06:48 +1100 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 8 19:06:34 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA17630
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:06:39 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA02406;
Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:36:35 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id TAA29044;
Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:36:34 +1030 (CST)
Message-ID: <19981208193634.A29025(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:36:34 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>,
Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces
References: <199812080719.MAA16509(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812081928170.14240-100000@fgh>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812081928170.14240-100000@fgh>; from Dave Horsfall on Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:49:40PM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tuesday, 8 December 1998 at 19:49:40 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On 8 Dec 1998, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>>> (I'm sure someone will now chime in about the days when Univac
>>> UniServo drives ruled the earth...)
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, what are they?
>
> Big BIG tape drives - real Sci-Fi material :-)
UniServo was UNIVAC's name for all its tape drives, at least as long
as I was involved with them. They were all vacuum column jobs, but
some were definitely ``cheap'' ones, such as the UniServo 6 and 12,
which were intended for smaller machines. IIRC the latest ``big''
ones were the UniServo 16 and 20, at least when I was still involved
with UNIVAC.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA18425
for pups-liszt; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:02:41 +1100 (EST)
>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Dec 8 23:59:53 1998
Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA18420
for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:02:33 +1100 (EST)
Received: (qmail 18804 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1998 13:10:39 -0000
Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115)
by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Dec 1998 13:10:39 -0000
Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0znNf8-0003mmC; Wed, 9 Dec 98 00:58 AEDT
Received: from localhost (dave@localhost)
by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id AAA28663
for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:59:54 +1100
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:59:53 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
X-Sender: dave@fgh
cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: John Lions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812081523440.10402-100000@fgh>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812090031300.14240-100000@fgh>
X-No-Archive: Yes
X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk"
X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Thanks for letting us know. Damn...
Sic transit gloria mundi.
Damn.
John, why did you have to die? You taught me everything that I knew.
Shit.
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA18465
for pups-liszt; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:13:54 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Wed Dec 9 00:13:08 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA18460
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:13:41 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm10-206.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.206])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA16834
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:13:22 +0500
Message-Id: <199812081413.TAA16834(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 8 Dec 1998 14:13:08 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> wrote:
> From my TTL Data Book: Quadruple 2-input positive-NAND buffer (Y=AB bar).
> Outputs are 3, 6, 8, 11. Corresponding inputs are 1/2, 4/5, 9/10, 12/13.
> Vcc is 14, GND is 7.
Looks trivial, except that the author of the digital design textbook I'm
using has chosen to omit it. :-) Anyway, I have looked at the board again,
and all pins that go to the connector are outputs. This means that at least
in this form, with the U10 chip omitted, there are NO inputs on that
connector, only outputs.
That missing chip could very well have to do with inputs, though. Hmm,
there are 4 lines going to that missing chip, and that sounds like the
number of input lines in some flavor of Centronics. On the output side, 8
pins go to the 74S241 and 3 pins go to the 7437, again suggesting 8-bit
output and some control signals.
All this sounds very much like Centronics or some similar interface.
Figuring out what the host interface is and what do those myriads of
switches and jumpers mean would be harder, though.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Some nice progress with hardware and Ultrix in the PUPS archive
by Michael Sokolov
Dear Tim,
You write:
> I'd be glad to run off TK50's from images
> for you, though I think your earlier idea, about installing from
> the miniroot image that's commonly put on 4.2- and 4.3BSD derived
> distributions, is a *far* better idea as it avoids using a TK50
> tape drive at all.
I will need to boot from a tape at some point in any case. I have to
boot from SOMETHING. Since none of the disks in this machine is bootable, I
have to boot either from a tape or over the network. Since the only two
computers in my apartment are the VAX in question and my DOS machine,
netbooting is not an option. Well, I could attach another disk to the PC,
download FreeBSD, and install it, but this is _WAY_ too much pain. Also
there is no guarantee of success with this approach, since there are all
kinds of traps waiting to catch me. The spare disk I'm talking about may
turn out to be toast, FreeBSD may not like something about this PC, the
DELQA in the VAX may turn out broken, etc., etc., etc. OTOH, the labor
investment in just trying it out is enormous (this PC has a VERY special
configuration, and adding another disk may turn out to be a royal pita,
plus downloading FreeBSD or some other PeeCee UNIX clone over my 14400 BPS
modem is going to be a nightmare). On the other hand, I know that the TK50
boot path is working, since I have been able to boot from some VMSish tape
(see my previous messages), thus all I need is a good Ultrix tape.
Another friendly PUPS member has promised to send me copies of his
Ultrix tapes, so hopefully I'll get something going.
> It's not that tape copies are bad ideas - it's just that TK50's
> are so slow. If you were coming from 9-track or DLT or something
> fast, that wouldn't be so bad.
Are 9-track tapes faster than TK50s? In addition to the TK50 I also have
the CDC Keystone and the QT13 which seems to work after all, but I
_STRONGLY_ doubt that it's going to be any easier. This big beast is very
dirty, it has been exposed to a little rain, and it has been dropped on
concrete pavement a couple times, so before I even try plugging it in, I
would have to perform a very careful cleaning and inspection procedure, and
I currently don't have anywhere near the resources and knowledge needed for
that operation.
> If you can get just about any OS running on your
> Q-bus machine, under any CPU - i.e. NetBSD, RT-11, 2.11BSD, RSX,
> whatever you might have - then you can just write the miniroot
> straight to a "scratch" disk.
Again, regardless of what approach I take, I'll need to boot from some
device first. See above.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13664
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:29 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Tue Dec 8 02:49:46 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13659
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:04 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm8-105.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.105])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15637
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:50:03 +0500
Message-Id: <199812071650.VAA15637(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:49:46 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: 9-track tape interfaces
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear Tim,
Your explanation of 9-track tape interfaces is extremely helpful!
Thanks! This area has always been a huge gap in my hardware knowledge.
What I still don't understand is how do all these interfaces handle the
issue of recording density (800 BPI vs. 1600 BPI vs. 6250 BPI). You are
saying that the Pertec unformatted interface is very low-level. Do you mean
that it gives the controller the raw stream from the heads without trying
to separate data and clock bits? It is my understanding (please correct me
if I'm wrong) that the difference between 1600 and 6250 BPI is the data
encoding (PE vs. GCR) and that the actual magnetic density (flux
transitions per inch) is the same. If so, does this mean that a Pertec
unformatted transport can be made 1600 or 6250 BPI at the formatter's
discretion without the transport knowing or caring about the density? I
mean, is it like the ST-506/412 MFM vs. ST-506/412 RLL thing?
And how does the Pertec formatted interface address this issue? In this
case the controller has to tell the transport what density it wants with
the transport being able to accept or deny the request depending on its
capabilities, right?
You write:
> Yep, Pertec formatted. The QT13 is nice because it'll emulate
> either MU: or MS:-type devices.
This brings me to the following question. Assuming that the Pertec
formatted interface does carry explicit density control information, which
software interface would be a better choice in terms of density control,
TS-11 or TMSCP? It is my understanding that the original UNIBUS TS-11 is a
formatter for Pertec unformatted transports that supports 1600 BPI only,
right? If so, the TS-11 interface doesn't give the OS any control over the
density, does it? If so, what density does the QT13 choose in this mode?
And what about TMSCP? How much control does it give to the OS in terms of
density selection?
> Yep, a TS05 is a rebadged Cipher F880 (with some slightly-different
> firmware).
And where does it stand density-wise? According to DEC, TS05 is a 1600
BPI only transport, and as far as I can remember, the Cipher at CWRU had
"1600 BPI" printed on the back somewhere. However, it had a switch on the
front panel labeled "HI DEN" or something like that. What the hell is this?
According to DEC docs, on TS05 this switch is labeled "ENTER" and the docs
call it "reserved".
> It probably had 4 50-pin edge connectors [...]
Yes.
> [...] so that multiple drives could
> be chained on the same Pertec-formatted-bus. (There are terminators at
> each end of the bus, much like SCSI.) There's provisions for at least
> 4 formatters per bus, with each formatter potentially running multiple
> drives.
Huh! I have never thought about it this way.
> (again, with slightly different firmware - for instance a DEC TU80
> controller
> will only work with TU80 drives or their CDC equivalent, the Keystone.)
CDC Keystone is exactly what I have here. The interface coming out of
the (incredibly huge) cabinet is Pertec formatted. Does it have a Pertec
unformatted interface lurking inside or not? Which densities does it
support?
> TU80's and TS(V)05's are simple
> Pertec formatted interfaces. Other times they convert to some other
> interface (Massbus, LESI, etc.) before the cables come out to the "real
> world".
Hmm, the only DEC tape transport with LESI I know of is TU81+. Are there
any others? And what about that plus? Has there ever been a TU81 without
the plus? My manuals are at my main VAX farm from which I'm currently away,
but I remember the picture of the TU81+ in there looked similar to the
Keystone I have here. Since you say above that TU80 is Keystone in
disguise, does it mean that TU80, TU81, and TU81+ are all the same beast
with different interface converters tacked on?
And what is LESI anyway? I have heard somewhere that the KLESI
controller can drive more than just a TU81+, so is LESI actually more than
just a tape interface?
Oh, what about that leading edge strobe vs. trailing edge strobe? Your
vmsnet.pdp11 posting with the QT13 switch settings says that Kennedy 9300
uses trailing edge strobe while all others use leading edge strobe. Mine,
however, is set for trailing edge strobe, and it was connected to the
Keystone. Does this mean that the Keystone and Kennedy 9300 are the same
beast, or is it simply that the 9300 is not the only transport using
trailing edge strobe?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13678
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:55 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Tue Dec 8 02:51:09 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13671
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:39 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm8-105.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.105])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15642
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:51:19 +0500
Message-Id: <199812071651.VAA15642(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:51:09 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Sigma unidentified flying board
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear Tim,
You write:
> Any chance it's a simple parallel I/O?
>
> Could also be the bus interface for a Sigma and/or DSD MFM drive
> controller (if so, it probably emulates RL02's). The assembly number
> sounds vaguely DSD-like.
From looking at the board I see that the BDMGI and BDMGO fingers are
simply shorted and not connected to any circuitry. This means that the
board is non-DMA, right? If so, it can't emulate RL-11 or any other DEC
disk controller because they are all DMA, right? The BIAKI and BIAKO
fingers ARE connected to some circuitry, though, so at least this board
interrupts, right?
And what's DSD? What MFM controller are you referring to? The "SIGMA
INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." label and the assembly number are etched, not
silk-screened, stamped, or stickered, so it suggests that Sigma is the
original designer.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14057
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:32:10 +1100 (EST)
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Dec 8 04:41:59 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA14052
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:32:00 +1100 (EST)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA09365
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:31:55 -0800 (PST)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981207104119.00926100(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:41:59 -0800
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Rugged 1182
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear PUPS list,
I recently picked up a rack mounted computer that is called a "Rugged
11/82". One individual I know has suggested that it is a pdp 11/82 is a
ruggedized box. Has anyone on this list seen one of these. Is there any
software in the PUPS archive that might run on one of these?
Sincerely,
Rick Copeland
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14248
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:53:26 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 8 04:53:01 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id FAA14243
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:53:13 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU;
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:53:01 -0500
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:53:01 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <981207135301.2f0000e2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: Rugged 1182
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>I recently picked up a rack mounted computer that is called a "Rugged
>11/82". One individual I know has suggested that it is a pdp 11/82 is a
>ruggedized box. Has anyone on this list seen one of these.
I have seen ruggedized 11/83's, as well as "Industrial 11/83"'s, but
it's not clear yet exactly what you have. The obvious solution
is to look inside and see what Q-bus and/or Unibus boards are present.
> Is there any
>software in the PUPS archive that might run on one of these?
Some ruggedized PDP-11 systems didn't have a real Q-bus or Unibus backplane
at all, making it very difficult (if not impossible) to use them
with a standard disk controller. That's why it's vital that you figure
out what exactly is in your machine.
Assuming that the guts are indeed a Q-bus or Unibus KDJ-based CPU,
you'll be able to run 2.11BSD once you get a compatible disk, load,
and console system up and going on it.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14657
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:42:52 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 8 05:42:28 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA14652
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:42:35 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU;
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:42:28 -0500
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:42:28 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <981207144228.2f0000e2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> Are 9-track tapes faster than TK50s?
In every reasonable case that I know of, yes.
>In addition to the TK50 I also have
>the CDC Keystone and the QT13 which seems to work after all, but I
>_STRONGLY_ doubt that it's going to be any easier. This big beast is very
>dirty, it has been exposed to a little rain, and it has been dropped on
>concrete pavement a couple times, so before I even try plugging it in, I
>would have to perform a very careful cleaning and inspection procedure, and
>I currently don't have anywhere near the resources and knowledge needed for
>that operation.
You're lucky - there's an incredible scarcity of moving parts on
a TU80/CDC Keystone: two reel motors and a blower are all you've
got. There's also two metallic "hub" sensors used to sense tape
motion/tension. Clean these and the heads, load a scratch tape with
write ring, power it up, close the door, make sure the logic is on,
and hit "TEST" followed by "EXECUTE". It'll go into a self-test mode,
including some maximum-Maytag gymnastics, which will run for 15
minutes or so on a 2400-foot tape.
[Unknown Sigma board]
> From looking at the board I see that the BDMGI and BDMGO fingers are
>simply shorted and not connected to any circuitry. This means that the
>board is non-DMA, right? If so, it can't emulate RL-11 or any other DEC
>disk controller because they are all DMA, right? The BIAKI and BIAKO
>fingers ARE connected to some circuitry, though, so at least this board
>interrupts, right?
Hmm - you said it has a 40-pin connector. Given that it doesn't
do DMA, I'm guessing that it's either a DLV11-type clone (a single
serial line) or a parallel interface (either a DRV11-C type or a
line-printer driver, possibly either Data Products or Centronics
interface.)
> And what's DSD?
Data Systems Design - they made some disk controller subsystems.
> The "SIGMA
>INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." label and the assembly number are etched, not
>silk-screened, stamped, or stickered, so it suggests that Sigma is the
>original designer.
Any obvious buffers (or banks of buffers) near the external connector? What
are the date codes on the chips?
> What I still don't understand is how do all these interfaces handle the
>issue of recording density (800 BPI vs. 1600 BPI vs. 6250 BPI). You are
>saying that the Pertec unformatted interface is very low-level. Do you mean
>that it gives the controller the raw stream from the heads without trying
>to separate data and clock bits?
At least at 800 and 1600 BPI, the Pertec Unformatted interface does
do the data recovery. There's a line from the formatter that puts
the drive into either PE (1600 BPI) or NRZI (800 BPI) mode, and some
optional lines that set the thresholds of the analog comparators used
for data recovery.
I'm not too sure about Pertec Unformatted drives at 6250 BPI.
> It is my understanding (please correct me
>if I'm wrong) that the difference between 1600 and 6250 BPI is the data
>encoding (PE vs. GCR) and that the actual magnetic density (flux
>transitions per inch) is the same.
6250 BPI is definitely higher flux density on the tape (in addition to
the different encoding.)
> And how does the Pertec formatted interface address this issue? In this
>case the controller has to tell the transport what density it wants with
>the transport being able to accept or deny the request depending on its
>capabilities, right?
There are a couple "spare" lines on the Pertec formatted interface
so that the host can tell the formatter such "optional" information.
The interpretation of these spare lines was never perfectly standardized:
sometimes they're used to select 800 vs 1600 or 1600 vs 6250 BPI
operation, other times they're used to put the drive into streaming
vs non-streaming mode, other times it's used to change the speed on
a streaming drive. The IDEN line was the most commonly used line
on the Pertec formatted interface to choose these options, but some
CDC drives implemented a scheme where density/speed negotiation were
done in a much more complex way.
> This brings me to the following question. Assuming that the Pertec
>formatted interface does carry explicit density control information, which
>software interface would be a better choice in terms of density control,
>TS-11 or TMSCP?
It depends on what your OS's driver is capable of. In most cases
TMSCP gives you more control.
> It is my understanding that the original UNIBUS TS-11 is a
>formatter for Pertec unformatted transports that supports 1600 BPI only,
>right?
Right.
> If so, the TS-11 interface doesn't give the OS any control over the
>density, does it?
The "official DEC" TS-11 interface didn't. The DEC TSV05 interface
(which was upward-compatible with the TS11's)
gave the software control over the "high speed" vs "low speed" bit.
And as I pointed out, some drives could be set to interpret this
bit as a density select. I don't think the ability to set/clear
this bit ever made it into 2.11BSD (looking at the ts driver
code there I don't see it, at least) and I have no idea if it ever
made it to the 4.xBSD's.
> If so, what density does the QT13 choose in this mode?
The QT13 will support either IDEN-style density select or CDC-style
density select, and I believe in MS: mode this choice is made through
the TSV05 speed-select bit.
>And what about TMSCP? How much control does it give to the OS in terms of
>density selection?
TMSCP is much more flexible, and supports at least two different schemes
for selecting and reporting density. Here's what I've figured out about
possible reported-back density values in the TMSCP packets (as
excerpted from my DUSTAT.MAC):
DENTBL: TBLENT 1 ,<NRZI 800 BPI>
TBLENT 2 ,<PE 1600 BPI>
TBLENT 4 ,<GCR 6250 BPI>
TBLENT 10 ,<Cartridge (TK50)>
TBLENT 401 ,<NRZI 800 BPI>
TBLENT 402 ,<PE 1600 BPI>
TBLENT 404 ,<GCR 6250 BPI>
TBLENT 420 ,<TU82 special high density>;according to RSTS/E
TBLENT 1001 ,<Cartridge (TK50)>
TBLENT 1002 ,<Cartridge (TK70)>
; 20xx entries are supposed to be RV80, whatever that is,
; according to RSTS/E sources.
I'm pretty sure that 2.11BSD properly handles TU81 density select
in its TMSCP driver. (Steve, can you confirm this? I know you've
made some effort to get write caching to work with TU81's over the
years!)
In any event, remote density selection/reporting is largely a
frill, as any drive/controller combination that I ever used let you
explicitly select it with a physical button or a switch and displayed
the current selection in some useful way on the drive.
>> Yep, a TS05 is a rebadged Cipher F880 (with some slightly-different
>> firmware).
> And where does it stand density-wise? According to DEC, TS05 is a 1600
>BPI only transport, and as far as I can remember, the Cipher at CWRU had
>"1600 BPI" printed on the back somewhere. However, it had a switch on the
>front panel labeled "HI DEN" or something like that. What the hell is this?
Some Cipher's (I think F890's) supported a special 3200 BPI mode. It
was never in real wide use, but it was supported on some other
manufacturer's drives (some Kennedy 96xx's, for example.)
I know that some F880's had a button that said "HI DEN" but was for
all normal purposes non-functional (I think it did become useful
for selecting diagnostics.)
> CDC Keystone is exactly what I have here. The interface coming out of
>the (incredibly huge) cabinet is Pertec formatted. Does it have a Pertec
>unformatted interface lurking inside or not? Which densities does it
>support?
1600 BPI only, it's an "embedded-formatter" drive, so there is no
internal Pertec unformatted interface.
> Hmm, the only DEC tape transport with LESI I know of is TU81+. Are there
>any others?
Yep, the RC25 also used the LESI bus. (LESI="Low End Storage Interconnect".)
> And what about that plus? Has there ever been a TU81 without
>the plus?
Hmm - the non-plus may have been the version without write-caching.
Not real sure.
>Keystone I have here. Since you say above that TU80 is Keystone in
>disguise, does it mean that TU80, TU81, and TU81+ are all the same beast
>with different interface converters tacked on?
They all look similar, and have similar mechanics, but the 81's electronics
can do 6250 BPI, something an 80's can't.
> And what is LESI anyway? I have heard somewhere that the KLESI
>controller can drive more than just a TU81+, so is LESI actually more than
>just a tape interface?
It was CDC's attempt at a SCSI-like universal interface.
> Oh, what about that leading edge strobe vs. trailing edge strobe? Your
>vmsnet.pdp11 posting with the QT13 switch settings says that Kennedy 9300
>uses trailing edge strobe while all others use leading edge strobe. Mine,
>however, is set for trailing edge strobe, and it was connected to the
>Keystone. Does this mean that the Keystone and Kennedy 9300 are the same
>beast, or is it simply that the 9300 is not the only transport using
>trailing edge strobe?
Hmm - some combinations of drives may not be sensitive to this. (It's
also possibly a misprint in my QT13 manual, as I remember having to
futz with this switch's setting in some cases to get everything to work.)
No, the Keystone and the Kennedy 9300 are not the same beast. The
Keystone is a cute little streaming tape drive, while the 9300 is
a humongous vacuum-column 125IPS machine. (I'm sure someone will
now chime in about the days when Univac UniServo drives ruled the
earth...)
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Some nice progress with hardware and Ultrix in the PUPS archive
by Warren Toomey
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> As I was thinking about how else can I get correctly written Ultrix
> tapes, the following idea sneaked into my mind. The PUPS archive already
> contains PDP-11 Ultrix. How about VAX Ultrix? With Warren's permission, I
> would be more than happy to upload my VAX Ultrix tape images (I have them
> sitting as files on my DOS disk). Once that is done, would someone
> volunteer to download them, write them to two TK50 cartridges, and send
> them to me? TIA for any help.
We have to be careful with 3rd party UNIXes. We would have to get approval
from DEC (or whoever they are) to allow us to add their product into the
archive. I did this with V7M and the later Ultrix-11s before DEC got bought
out.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA04900
for pups-liszt; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:36:15 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sun Dec 6 00:33:16 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA04895
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:36:03 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 9:33:16 -0500
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 9:33:16 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
CC: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <981205093316.2de002c3(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> I have just tried configuring the board as you have suggested and it
>works! Thanks! You have saved the Project!
"It has to be simple or I can't do it :-)". In this case (like just
about all), it's a matter of getting rid of unknowns.
> When I tried starting WOMBAT, it also worked. However, there are tons of
>configuration parameters you can set there.
Oh yeah - the Webster controllers are wonderfully configurable. It's
incredibly useful, as one physical disk can be partitioned up many ways
into "virtual" MSCP units - especially useful for OS's which don't deal
well with large units (or when it's desirable to have many different
versions of many different OS's on the same disk.)
>Do you have a full manual for this controller? Would you mind sending me a
>xerox copy?
Sure, for the cost of copying and postage. Or I'd trade you for some
surplus of yours.
> What about VAXen? Can you still call 1-800-DIGITAL with a _BIG_ credit
>card in hand and order a VAX?
Yep - high end 3100 and 4000 units are still available.
(It looks like someone has already pointed you towards the Emulex QD21
and QT13 docs available around the net.)
> And while we are at it, I have a question about 9-track tape transports
>and controllers in general. I often hear about something called Pertec.
>What is it? Is it some kind of standard interface that nearly all tape
>transports use?
Nearly all non-SCSI, non-proprietary interface tape drives will have
either (or both) Pertec formatted and Pertec unformatted interfaces.
Pertec unformatted drives have three cables; one carries read data,
another carries write data, and the third carries control signals. It's
a rather low-level interface - the controller tells the drive to go
forward, then reads or writes data, with the controller responsible
for all the timing. The controller gets to do the nitty-gritty work
of repositioning and spacing forward and backward over tape marks.
Pertec formatted drives have two 50-pin cables. It's a higher-level
interface, where the "formatter" does a lot of the nitty-gritty work, and
the controller in the backplane just has to spew out data bytes (or
take them in).
Many times you'll see a Pertec unformatted drive with a formatter bolted
onto it with two 50-pin cables coming out. (In most cases, a formatter
could control multiple physical drives.) Other times you'll find
"embedded formatter" drives, where there is no 3-cable unformatted
interface lurking inside.
> It is what this QT13 controller is for? (It has 2 50-lead
>connectors.)
Yep, Pertec formatted. The QT13 is nice because it'll emulate
either MU: or MS:-type devices.
> I remember at CWRU there was a very neat-looking tape
>transport called Cipher. It looked EXACTLY like DEC TS05, suggesting that
>it's what the TS05 really is.
Yep, a TS05 is a rebadged Cipher F880 (with some slightly-different
firmware).
> That one also had a two-50-lead-cables
>interface as far as I could tell (it was disconnected). It also appeared to
>be dual-ported.
It probably had 4 50-pin edge connectors, so that multiple drives could
be chained on the same Pertec-formatted-bus. (There are terminators at
each end of the bus, much like SCSI.) There's provisions for at least
4 formatters per bus, with each formatter potentially running multiple
drives.
> Does this mean that DEC also used this Pertec interface?
Yep. Actually, the DEC TS05/TSV05/TU80 controllers are rebadged Dilog boards
(again, with slightly different firmware - for instance a DEC TU80 controller
will only work with TU80 drives or their CDC equivalent, the Keystone.)
>Then why are there different DEC controllers for different DEC 9-track tape
>transports (TSV05 for TS05, KLESI for TU81+, etc.)? If they were all Pertec
>one controller would fit all, wouldn't it? Or is that some DEC 9-track tape
>hardware uses Pertec and other DEC hardware doesn't?
At the guts of most DEC tape drives, you will often find either a Pertec
formatted or unformatted interface. TU80's and TS(V)05's are simple
Pertec formatted interfaces. Other times they convert to some other
interface (Massbus, LESI, etc.) before the cables come out to the "real
world".
> Moving on to the next and last unidentified flying board. This one is a
>total mystery. The board is labeled "SIGMA INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." and
>"ASSY NO 400135 REV A". There are NO microprocessors, ROMs, or any other
>LSI chips on the board, only SSI/MSI chips, resistors, and capacitors. It's
>a dual-height board. It has 3 8-switch packs. There is one 40-lead shrouded
>header connector on the board, and a straight 40-lead ribbon cable connects
>it to a bulkhead which has a female 37-lead D-sub connector on the outside.
>Any ideas on what in the world is this?
Any chance it's a simple parallel I/O?
Could also be the bus interface for a Sigma and/or DSD MFM drive controller
(if so, it probably emulates RL02's). The assembly number sounds vaguely
DSD-like.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA04942
for pups-liszt; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:44:43 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sun Dec 6 00:42:42 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA04937
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:44:33 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU;
Sat, 5 Dec 1998 9:42:42 -0500
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 9:42:42 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <981205094242.2de002c3(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: Some nice progress with hardware and Ultrix in the PUPS archive
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> As I was thinking about how else can I get correctly written Ultrix
>tapes, the following idea sneaked into my mind. The PUPS archive already
>contains PDP-11 Ultrix. How about VAX Ultrix?
As Warren pointed out, there might be a problem with putting such
tapes on the PUPS archive. I'd be glad to run off TK50's from images
for you, though I think your earlier idea, about installing from
the miniroot image that's commonly put on 4.2- and 4.3BSD derived
distributions, is a *far* better idea as it avoids using a TK50
tape drive at all.
It's not that tape copies are bad ideas - it's just that TK50's
are so slow. If you were coming from 9-track or DLT or something
fast, that wouldn't be so bad.
If you can get just about any OS running on your
Q-bus machine, under any CPU - i.e. NetBSD, RT-11, 2.11BSD, RSX,
whatever you might have - then you can just write the miniroot
straight to a "scratch" disk. You can also write the root
dump and tar savesets straight to another scratch disk, in "raw"
format, if you desire.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem
by Michael Sokolov
Dear Tim,
I have just tried configuring the board as you have suggested and it
works! Thanks! You have saved the Project!
When I tried starting WOMBAT, it also worked. However, there are tons of
configuration parameters you can set there. All 4 disks connected to this
controller are already configured and formatted, so for now I'd just leave
it alone and install Ultrix on these disks as they are. For the future,
however, I would really appreciate being able to configure all that stuff.
Do you have a full manual for this controller? Would you mind sending me a
xerox copy?
> What else are commercial developers left to do now that
> DEC (after over a decade of trying to) has finally abandoned their
> PDP-11 product line?
What about VAXen? Can you still call 1-800-DIGITAL with a _BIG_ credit
card in hand and order a VAX?
> You might be a bit hasty in casting these off, as you aren't having
> the best of luck with the rest of the peripherals, either!
Well, now that the WQESD works and while I'm waiting for the TQK50 (one
very friendly PUPS member is providing me with a working one), I can turn
my attention to these two. Let's start with the 2-drive ESDI one. The
Emulex logo and copyright appear in a lot of places, so there is no problem
with identification. The board is labeled "ASSY QD2110402 REV G", and just
like every other Emulex board I have ever seen, it has a 40-pin chip with
an Emulex SUB-ASSY sticker. In this case it's "QD2110202-00G". Do you know
anything about this board? It has two switch packs, one of 4 and one of 8.
What are the switch settings?
Now let's turn to the 9-track tape controller. Again there is no problem
with identification (straight Emulex). The board is labeled "ASSY
QT1310401-00 REV E" and the 40-pin chip is labeled "QT1310201-02 REV K".
Again it has one 4-switch pack and one 8-switch pack. There is something
seriously wrong with this board, since when it's present in the backplane
the CPU refuses to power up. It stalls at that infamous 9 very early in the
power-up sequence, before any console tests or displays, suggesting that
something is HORRIBLY wrong with Q-bus (maybe a short or something?).
And while we are at it, I have a question about 9-track tape transports
and controllers in general. I often hear about something called Pertec.
What is it? Is it some kind of standard interface that nearly all tape
transports use? It is what this QT13 controller is for? (It has 2 50-lead
connectors.) I remember at CWRU there was a very neat-looking tape
transport called Cipher. It looked EXACTLY like DEC TS05, suggesting that
it's what the TS05 really is. That one also had a two-50-lead-cables
interface as far as I could tell (it was disconnected). It also appeared to
be dual-ported. Does this mean that DEC also used this Pertec interface?
Then why are there different DEC controllers for different DEC 9-track tape
transports (TSV05 for TS05, KLESI for TU81+, etc.)? If they were all Pertec
one controller would fit all, wouldn't it? Or is that some DEC 9-track tape
hardware uses Pertec and other DEC hardware doesn't?
Moving on to the next and last unidentified flying board. This one is a
total mystery. The board is labeled "SIGMA INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." and
"ASSY NO 400135 REV A". There are NO microprocessors, ROMs, or any other
LSI chips on the board, only SSI/MSI chips, resistors, and capacitors. It's
a dual-height board. It has 3 8-switch packs. There is one 40-lead shrouded
header connector on the board, and a straight 40-lead ribbon cable connects
it to a bulkhead which has a female 37-lead D-sub connector on the outside.
Any ideas on what in the world is this?
> I'm willing to bet that you have severe Q-bus continuity problems,
> especially now that you've told us that you have an expansion Q-bus
> cabinet and that you've been randomly moving Q-bus cards around.
I am perfectly aware of the fact that Q-bus requires grant continuity
and, no, I was NOT moving cards around "randomly". I have them in the order
DEC recommends in all of its manuals. There is no problem with the
expansion backplane either, the WQESD is quite happy sitting there right
now.
> Is the "BA23" indeed a real DEC BA23, and not the Sigma "clone"?
A real DEC one, of course. While I have never been a DEC engineer or
anything like that, I have certainly seen and used enough BA23s to tell one
from a third-party box.
The expansion backplane is Sigma, though.
> The sigma 5.25" 9-slot backplanes have very different backplane
> wirings (and, indeed, putting a DEC dual-wide Microvax CPU into
> it will very likely cause damage.)
Yes, I know. The yellow sticker on the expansion backplane says:
"CAUTION! Do not install MicroVAX or KDJ11-B series CPUs into this
backplane."
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA27264
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:36:51 +1100 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Dec 4 07:35:51 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA27258
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:36:42 +1100 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25750
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:36:22 -0800
Message-ID: <36670437.966A4527(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:35:51 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem
References: <199812032008.BAA08080(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> > The sigma 5.25" 9-slot backplanes have very different backplane
> > wirings (and, indeed, putting a DEC dual-wide Microvax CPU into
> > it will very likely cause damage.)
>
> Yes, I know. The yellow sticker on the expansion backplane says:
> "CAUTION! Do not install MicroVAX or KDJ11-B series CPUs into this
> backplane."
I have a box with one of these. I noticed the bussing appeared to
be non-standard, but exactly what is the problem here?
I also have a couple of Netcom HV1148 backplanes that
appear to be non-standard. Any experience with these?
What can you do with these backplane? What sort of Q-Bus system
can you use them in?
Thanks,
Dave
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA28393
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:45:17 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Fri Dec 4 11:44:38 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28387
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:45:04 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm9-180.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.180])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA08380
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 06:44:46 +0500
Message-Id: <199812040144.GAA08380(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 4 Dec 1998 01:44:38 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Emulex QT13 and related questions
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear Tim and other Q-bus gurus,
Emanuel Stiebler has pointed me to a message posted to vmsnet.pdp11 by
Tim a while ago, and there I have found the info on Emulex QT13. Thanks!
Since none of my two non-working TQK50s is currently installed, I have
tried configuring the QT13 as the primary TMSCP controller and plugging it
in. Guess what, this time it powered up without that ugly 9! Nice! I
probably won't do much with it, though, since although I do have a 9-track
tape transport here in my apartment, I want to leave it alone for now. It's
enormous, by far the biggest piece of equipment here, and I don't feel like
playing with it now. Some time later maybe.
This exercise does raise a few questions, though. Suppose some time
later I decided to use this beast. Suppose I wanted to make this QT13 a
secondary TMSCP controller. This and other very similar exercises require
knowing the rules for floating CSR and vector assignments. What can I find
the complete rules for this? My ancient UNIBUS DZ11 manual only lists the
earliest floating devices, no MSCP or DHUs or anything like that. I once
had some MicroVAX manual that included a table for "common configurations",
but I don't have it any more, plus I'm really looking for the complete
rules and not just "common configurations". Any ideas? Of course if I had a
KA655 or a KA660 I would just type "CONFIGURE" at the ">>>" prompt, but I
only have a plain 650 which doesn't have this luxury.
Also looking at the configuration of this QT13 board, I noticed that it
was originally configured for trailing edge strobe. Tim's notes indicate
that this is for Kennedy 9300 only and that the rest should use leading
edge strobe. The tape transport I have here is labeled as CDC KEYSTONE. Is
this another name for Kennedy 9300 or a different beast? Does anyone know
anything about this transport?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA28457
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:14:10 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Fri Dec 4 12:13:33 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA28452
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:13:57 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm11-9.dial.qual.net [205.212.3.9])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA08416
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:13:41 +0500
Message-Id: <199812040213.HAA08416(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 4 Dec 1998 02:13:33 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
David C. Jenner <djenner(a)halcyon.com> wrote:
> I have a box with one of these. I noticed the bussing appeared to
> be non-standard, but exactly what is the problem here?
I don't think it's non-standard. It's probably just a different
standard. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a Q-bus backplane.
There are Q/Q, Q/CD, and other types of Q-bus'ish backplanes. Generally,
you call something a "Q-bus backplane" if it has Q-bus in rows A and B.
Rows C and D may be used for lots of different things. In theory you can
have these rows used for something REALLY weird. Allison J. Parent tells me
that once upon a time you could get a special version of BA11 where rows C
and D were customer-wired, i.e., you could have absolutely anything you
want in there.
In practice, however, there are only two types of row C&D wiring. On
some backplanes you have Q-bus in both A&B and C&D, with the grant
continuity going in a serpentine. Some BA11 versions are like this. Such
backplanes are called Q/Q. On other backplanes Q-bus goes straight down the
A&B rows without ever touching rows C and D. In these backplanes rows C&D
are connected in a daisy chain, i.e., the fingers on the solder side of the
board in slot 1 connect to the fingers on the component side of the board
in slot 2, the fingers on the solder side of the board in slot 2 connect to
the fingers on the component side of the board in slot 3, and so on. This
way immediately adjacent boards can use rows C&D as a totally private
interconnect that has zero effect on or relationship with anything else in
the system, just like an over-the-top cable. The best example of this is
RLV11, although the most common example is MicroVAX II and III memory. Such
backplanes are usually called Q/CD, and the examples are some versions of
BA11 and all BA2xx and BA4xx backplanes.
Finally, there are mixed backplanes that have several Q/CD slots
followed by many Q/Q slots. These are specifically designed for MicroVAXen
and other CPUs using rows C&D as a private memory interconnect. These
backplanes are BA23 (3 Q/CD slots and 5 Q/Q slots) and BA123 (4 Q/CD slots
and 8 Q/Q slots).
Getting back to the Sigma backplanes, the inability to put a MicroVAX
CPU in there suggests that they are Q/Q.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA29379
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:19:44 +1100 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Dec 4 15:21:40 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA29374
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:19:36 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03261; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:21:40 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812040521.QAA03261(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: New Apout PDP-11 simulator
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:21:40 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <19981204154443.E38307(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 4, 98 03:44:43 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
[greg] Looks good. When are you going to add support for 2.11BSD? :-)
[warren] I've just started. Emulating all 150+ syscalls is going to take a
while. I'll try to modify the V7 syscall support for 2.11BSD; that should
get most simple programs working. After that, one syscall at a time....
[greg] Hmm. I suppose the networking will cause you the most headaches
(maybe... maybe, of course, you can pass them through to FreeBSD
almost unchanged). Most of the things I use the PDP 11 for are
networking (letting people dial in, etc), but I'll certainly try
things out as soon as you think it would be worthwhile.
I'm thinking sometime early next year for an initial release with
just the `V7' syscalls in the 2.11BSD emulation. As you said, many of
the syscalls will be a pass-thru, with just args and return values to
be mapped.
I'll let the list know as I go...
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA00320
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:32:38 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Fri Dec 4 20:31:01 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA00315
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:32:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm7-62.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.62])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA09422
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:31:28 +0500
Message-Id: <199812041031.PAA09422(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 4 Dec 1998 10:31:01 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Some nice progress with hardware and Ultrix in the PUPS archive
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
Emanuel Stiebler has graciously provided me with a reference to a freely
downloadable copy of the Emulex QD21 manual. Using that manual, I have got
mine configured correctly and ran firmware diagnostics on it. It looks like
the Emulex card is OK, but for some reason it isn't seeing the drive
attached to it. Probably a defective drive reporting not ready or maybe
just a connection problem (the drive is mounted in some very weird way so
that I can't even check the connection, let alone see the jumpers or
anything). Oh well, I'll figure it out later. Right now i have the WQESD
controller configured as the primary one, and it has 4 working 320 MB disks
attached to it, so it should be enough for me to build and release 4.3BSD-
Quasijarus1.
But there is something even more interesting. I got the TK50 to work!
Yay! It turned out that one of the TQK50 boards was working after all, it
was simply being screwed up by the rest of the system standing on its ears.
After I got the VAX to boot from some VMSish tape I have (it boots, asks
for date and time, prints something about some "standalone backup" and
gives me a "$" prompt, but I'm absolutely NULL in VMS, so this doesn't do
me much good), I realized that I couldn't boot from my Ultrix tapes because
there is something wrong with the way I wrote them. I wrote them on a TZ30
(half-height native-SCSI TK50 clone) connected to a 386 with an Adaptec
1520A running FreeBSD booted from a floppy (the 386's big ESDI hard disk is
filled with DOS stuff only). In fact, when I tried reading that tape back
on this very same FreeBSD thing it didn't read! Something is clearly wrong.
As I was thinking about how else can I get correctly written Ultrix
tapes, the following idea sneaked into my mind. The PUPS archive already
contains PDP-11 Ultrix. How about VAX Ultrix? With Warren's permission, I
would be more than happy to upload my VAX Ultrix tape images (I have them
sitting as files on my DOS disk). Once that is done, would someone
volunteer to download them, write them to two TK50 cartridges, and send
them to me? TIA for any help.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
New Apout PDP-11 simulator
by Warren Toomey
All,
I've just spent the week tidying up my Apout program. This runs
PDP-11 user-mode programs (specifically 7th Edition binaries), and
translates V7 syscalls to native syscalls.
I've tidied the program up and optimised it a bit too. Over the summer
break (it's summer down here) I want to add floating-point and start
work on emulating 2.11BSD user-mode binaries.
The program runs on FreeBSD 2.2.x and 3.0 systems: porting to other 32-bit
little-endian Unix systems should be relatively easy. Porting to big-endian
systems might be harder :-) I'll have a look at that too.
Anyway, an alpha of the new 2.2 version is at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA24007
for pups-liszt; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:51:17 +1100 (EST)
>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Thu Dec 3 14:48:30 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA23997
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:50:45 +1100 (EST)
Received: from dosdev (pm8-114.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.114])
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA06898
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:48:58 +0500
Message-Id: <199812030448.JAA06898(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 3 Dec 1998 04:48:30 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> This sounds a lot like the Webster WQESD, which was repackaged
> and sold by many different folks (Sigma, DSD, Qualogy, American
> Digital, etc.)
Quite possible, since this funny Xerox system has a lot of Sigma
components. The outer box in which the BA23 is mounted is made by Sigma,
the funny way the ESDI drives are mechanically mounted is clearly a Sigma
invention, the card connecting the BA23 backplane to the expansion
backplane in the outer Sigma box is made by Sigma, and so is another
totally unmarked card of unknown purpose (its presence or absence appears
to have absolutely no effect on anything). The system is not 100% Sigma,
though. There also another 2-drive ESDI controller (that's the one that was
at 172150 from the beginning) and a 9-track tape controller, both made by
Emulex (QD21 and QT13, respectively) and both appear toast (I want to get
rid of both).
> If it is a repackaged WQESD, SW9 on the 10-switch pack was originally
> on, with SW10 and SW5-8 off, to put the CSR at 160334.
> To set it to be 172150, you put SW10 on, and SW5-9 off.
Before I got your E-mail, SW5 and SW8 were ON and the rest were OFF
(don't remember if it was the original position). I also tried SW10 ON and
the rest OFF. In both cases the effect is exactly the same. At power-up the
CPU screams, but then gives the ">>>" prompt. Trying to read different
locations with the E/P/W command (the Q-bus I/O page is mapped at
0x20000000 in the VAX address space), I see that the card responds somehow
to 160334 and to 160400, but not to 172150. (I know that it's this card and
not something else, since when I pull it out the CPU is happy and no one
responds to these addresses.)
> Then again, it might not be a repackaged WQESD, but instead a Dilog
> or Emulex.
I'm 99% sure that it's neither Dilog nor Emulex. I have seen quite a few
Dilog and Emulex cards, and I think I should be able to detect them easily.
> Is there a 10-pin header on the card edge? Can you describe the
> positions and types of "big chips" on the board?
This is a quad-height board. All components are thru-hole and all chips
are in DIP packages. There are no 4-sided chips or surface-mounted
components. Hold it with the component side up, the fingers to the right
and the handles to the left. On the left (handle) side there is a row of
shrouded header connectors. From top to bottom, they are: 10-pin (connected
to something, but purpose unknown), 34-pin (ESDI control and status), 20-
pin (drive 0 data), 20-pin (drive 1 data), 20-pin (drive 2 data). Directly
behind the bottom 20-pin header there is another 20-pin header for drive 3
data. The biggest chip is a 48-pin DIP labeled DP8466AN (National
Semiconductor as far as I can tell), and it's right behind the drive 3 data
connector. There are two AM2901CPCs behind the 34-pin connector. There is
one 28-pin EPROM right about in the center, shifted downward a little. The
ROM size is obscured by the sticker saying "ESDI V2.41 9901-8918 REV.A".
There is a stack of narrow 24-pin DIP chips going from the top of the board
to right above the EPROM. All have stickers, suggesting that they are
programmable. The stickers have different 6-character codes on them, all
starting with "1583". Directly to the right from the last one there is one
more such chip labeled "SYS IND 1583W3".
Actually, I was wrong about there being 2 switch packs. There are 3 of
them, one of 10 and two of 4. The 10-switch one is right above the chip
labeled "SYS IND 1583W3". In the top right corner (right next to row A
fingers) there is a 4-switch pack. All switches are ON. Directly behind it
there is a 16-pin DIP chip labeled "1583I1" (the only chip with a sticker
not mentioned before). At the top of the board directly to the left from
the 10-chip stack there is a 10 MHz oscillator, the only clock on the
board. Directly to the left from it there is the last 4-switch pack. All
switches are ON. Finally, there are 3 LEDs between the top handle and the
10-pin header. The top one is red and the other two are green.
> Some
> other switches also set the interrupt priority, and this being
> off can also confuse some tests and OS's.
What's the correct priority for disk MSCP? Should it be different
between primary and secondary?
> As to your power-on self-test woes, you're going to have to tell
> us what's in the system and what slot it lives in, as well as what
> sort of backplane it's all in.
The outer box is Sigma. It provides funny mounting for 4 ESDI drives, an
expansion Q-bus backplane, and a big bay for a BA23. The BA23 contains the
CPU, the memory, and all peripherals except the controller in question.
First comes the KA650 CPU. Then two MS650 memory modules. Then DELQA,
DZQ11, TQK50, and the Sigma Q-bus extender card. The latter takes the Q-bus
into the expansion backplane, where the controller in question is the only
device. It's in the expansion backplane instead of the BA23 because that's
where the actual drives are. I have tried pulling the Sigma Q-bus extender
card out and putting the ESDI controller right in the BA23 backplane, but
this didn't change anything, so there is nothing wrong with the Q-bus
expansion.
You know what, I just looked a little closer and noticed that in this
configuration (both 4-switch packs all ON, SW1-9 on the 10-switch pack OFF,
and SW10 ON) the controller responds not only to 160334 and 160400, but to
just about any address in the Q-bus I/O page (except 172150)! No wonder the
CPU screams about it! What the hell is going on? How can it possibly do
this? Is someone trying to port Plug-n-Pray to Q-bus? Is it something like
KFQSA with a separate address for each drive and everything soft-
configured?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA25817
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 01:27:17 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Dec 4 00:25:04 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA25812
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 01:27:04 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU;
Thu, 3 Dec 1998 9:25:04 -0500
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 9:25:04 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
CC: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Message-Id: <981203092504.2de002c1(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>> This sounds a lot like the Webster WQESD, which was repackaged
>> and sold by many different folks (Sigma, DSD, Qualogy, American
>> Digital, etc.)
> Quite possible, since this funny Xerox system has a lot of Sigma
>components.
I regularly work with "PDP-11 systems" now that don't have a single
DEC component in them. CPU by Mentec ( http://www.mentec.com/ ),
disk controller by Andromeda ( http://www.andromedasystems.com/ ),
async and parallel I/O by the Logical Company ( http://www.logical-co.com ),
etc. What else are commercial developers left to do now that
DEC (after over a decade of trying to) has finally abandoned their
PDP-11 product line? At least the other companies named are still
doing active support and (at least in Mentec's case) development!
> The outer box in which the BA23 is mounted is made by Sigma,
>...
>though. There also another 2-drive ESDI controller (that's the one that was
>at 172150 from the beginning) and a 9-track tape controller, both made by
>Emulex (QD21 and QT13, respectively) and both appear toast (I want to get
>rid of both).
You might be a bit hasty in casting these off, as you aren't having
the best of luck with the rest of the peripherals, either!
>> If it is a repackaged WQESD, SW9 on the 10-switch pack was originally
>> on, with SW10 and SW5-8 off, to put the CSR at 160334.
>> To set it to be 172150, you put SW10 on, and SW5-9 off.
> Before I got your E-mail, SW5 and SW8 were ON and the rest were OFF
>(don't remember if it was the original position). I also tried SW10 ON and
>the rest OFF. In both cases the effect is exactly the same. At power-up the
>CPU screams, but then gives the ">>>" prompt. Trying to read different
>locations with the E/P/W command (the Q-bus I/O page is mapped at
>0x20000000 in the VAX address space), I see that the card responds somehow
>to 160334 and to 160400, but not to 172150. (I know that it's this card and
>not something else, since when I pull it out the CPU is happy and no one
>responds to these addresses.)
>> Is there a 10-pin header on the card edge? Can you describe the
>> positions and types of "big chips" on the board?
> This is a quad-height board. All components are thru-hole and all chips
>are in DIP packages. There are no 4-sided chips or surface-mounted
>components. Hold it with the component side up, the fingers to the right
>and the handles to the left. On the left (handle) side there is a row of
>shrouded header connectors. From top to bottom, they are: 10-pin (connected
>to something, but purpose unknown), 34-pin (ESDI control and status), 20-
>pin (drive 0 data), 20-pin (drive 1 data), 20-pin (drive 2 data). Directly
>behind the bottom 20-pin header there is another 20-pin header for drive 3
>data. The biggest chip is a 48-pin DIP labeled DP8466AN (National
>Semiconductor as far as I can tell), and it's right behind the drive 3 data
>connector. There are two AM2901CPCs behind the 34-pin connector. There is
>one 28-pin EPROM right about in the center, shifted downward a little. The
>ROM size is obscured by the sticker saying "ESDI V2.41 9901-8918 REV.A".
That clinches it - it's a Webster WQESD, running Wombat V2.41.
9901-8918 is evidently the SI part number for the complete system.
It's a bit confusing to go from the SI part number because they all
begin with "9900" or "9901"!
> What's the correct priority for disk MSCP? Should it be different
>between primary and secondary?
A summary of the WQESD switch settings, and the various ways in which
you can invoke Wombat, lives at:
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware
as the file "WQESD.txt".
>> As to your power-on self-test woes, you're going to have to tell
>> us what's in the system and what slot it lives in, as well as what
>> sort of backplane it's all in.
> The outer box is Sigma. It provides funny mounting for 4 ESDI drives, an
>expansion Q-bus backplane, and a big bay for a BA23. The BA23 contains the
>CPU, the memory, and all peripherals except the controller in question.
>First comes the KA650 CPU. Then two MS650 memory modules. Then DELQA,
>DZQ11, TQK50, and the Sigma Q-bus extender card. The latter takes the Q-bus
>into the expansion backplane, where the controller in question is the only
>device. It's in the expansion backplane instead of the BA23 because that's
>where the actual drives are. I have tried pulling the Sigma Q-bus extender
>card out and putting the ESDI controller right in the BA23 backplane, but
>this didn't change anything, so there is nothing wrong with the Q-bus
>expansion.
I'm willing to bet that you have severe Q-bus continuity problems,
especially now that you've told us that you have an expansion Q-bus
cabinet and that you've been randomly moving Q-bus cards around.
You have to tell us exactly which slot each card is in, and preferably
the original configuration as well (the Sigma backplanes have different
wirings than the common DEC ones.)
Is the "BA23" indeed a real DEC BA23, and not the Sigma "clone"?
The sigma 5.25" 9-slot backplanes have very different backplane
wirings (and, indeed, putting a DEC dual-wide Microvax CPU into
it will very likely cause damage.)
As a start, work just with the BA23. Put the CPU in slot 1, with
the two memory boards in slots 2 and 3. Put the WQESD in slot 4.
Have nothing else plugged in at all - especially not the boards
that jumper the two backplanes together.
Set the DIPswitches on the WQESD as follows:
10-switch pack: Switches 1-2 off, 3 on, 4-9 off, 10 on.
4-switch pack near the edge connector: 1-3 on, 4 off.
4-switch pack near the handles: 1-4 on.
Then try to start up wombat with the following sequence of console commands:
Microvax II:
Halt the processor
U
I
D/P/W 20001F40 20
D/L 20088008 80000002
D/W 20001468 AC
S 400
If this doesn't start Wombat, tell us *exactly* what the error message
produced is.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
System Industries MSCP disk controller problem
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
I wonder, is anyone here familiar with System Industries (SI) Q-bus MSCP
controllers for ESDI disks? The VAX I'm working has one. It's quad-height
board with connectors for 4 ESDI drives. I couldn't find a model number or
anything like that, but there is a sticker on one of the chips that says
"SYS IND" on it (that's how I deduced that it's SI). The problem I'm having
is that I have no idea how to configure it. It has two DIP switch packs,
one with 4 switches and one with 10. Originally it was configured to be the
secondary disk MSCP controller at 160334. I want it to be the primary one
at 172150. I tried every reasonable switch combination I could think of,
but no luck.
What's even worse is that I can't leave it as secondary either. For some
reason its configuration makes the CPU (KA650) unhappy. When I pull it out,
the CPU passes all power-up tests beautifully. When I put it in, I still
get to the ">>>" prompt eventually, but first I get a load of error
messages from the self-tests. Then when I try to boot from DUB0, it tells
me "DEVASSIGN", suggesting that it doesn't recognize the second disk MSCP
controller at all. All docs I have suggest that 160334 is the correct
address for secondary disk MSCP. It's in the floating address range,
though, so I suspected that it's the side effect of adding or removing
other cards. I tried making the configuration as close to the original as I
could. No luck still. The only card I had to pull out is the secondary
TMSCP (Emulex QT13 9-track tape controller), because it appears totally
toast (the CPU refuses to power up with that infamous 9 when this card is
present). But then secondary TMSCP should be AFTER secondary disk MSCP in
the floating address space, right? I tried some more investigation and by
pure accident I discovered that the SI controller also responds somehow to
160400. What the hell is that address for? Could this be what makes the CPU
unhappy?
Does anyone have any clues? Is anyone here familiar with SI MSCP disk
controllers? TIA for any help.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA12137
for pups-liszt; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:27:04 +1100 (EST)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 1 13:24:21 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA12127
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU>; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:26:35 +1100 (EST)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU;
Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:24:21 -0500
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:24:21 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <981130222421.2de00129(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> I wonder, is anyone here familiar with System Industries (SI) Q-bus MSCP
>controllers for ESDI disks? The VAX I'm working has one. It's quad-height
>board with connectors for 4 ESDI drives. I couldn't find a model number or
>anything like that, but there is a sticker on one of the chips that says
>"SYS IND" on it (that's how I deduced that it's SI). The problem I'm having
>is that I have no idea how to configure it. It has two DIP switch packs,
>one with 4 switches and one with 10. Originally it was configured to be the
>secondary disk MSCP controller at 160334. I want it to be the primary one
>at 172150. I tried every reasonable switch combination I could think of,
>but no luck.
This sounds a lot like the Webster WQESD, which was repackaged
and sold by many different folks (Sigma, DSD, Qualogy, American
Digital, etc.)
If it is a repackaged WQESD, SW9 on the 10-switch pack was originally
on, with SW10 and SW5-8 off, to put the CSR at 160334.
To set it to be 172150, you put SW10 on, and SW5-9 off.
Then again, it might not be a repackaged WQESD, but instead a Dilog
or Emulex.
Is there a 10-pin header on the card edge? Can you describe the positions
and types of "big chips" on the board?
>pure accident I discovered that the SI controller also responds somehow to
>160400. What the hell is that address for? Could this be what makes the CPU
>unhappy?
It might be because you've enabled the on-board PDP-11 bootstrap,
a very big no-no when used in a Microax system. (This
bootstrap effectively tries to jam code by DMA into main memory,
and can wreak all sorts of havoc on a Microvax.) Some
other switches also set the interrupt priority, and this being
off can also confuse some tests and OS's.
As to your power-on self-test woes, you're going to have to tell
us what's in the system and what slot it lives in, as well as what
sort of backplane it's all in.
Incidentally, I happen to use a Webster WQESD in my 4.3BSD-Reno
machine, and am very happy with it there.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
2.9BSD/DZ-11 clone screw
by Daniel A. Seagraves
I got my hands on a Aviv DZ-11 clone. 16-line MUX. So, I go about
shoving it in the 83. It boots 2.9BSD off a RL02. Shove device in,
set CSR and interrupt vector, and fire up BSD.
I screwed with the dtab line - With it using dzdma in place of dzou, I can't
make the MUX go. The kernel attaches it, but I can't seem to be able to talk
to it. So, I switched to dzou. Now, upon boot, I get the message:
dz 0 csr 160100 vector 320 no address found for dzou
SERIOUS CONFIGURATION ERROR^G^G^G
I've tried other vectors and other bus slots, and get no improvements
with either method (dzdma or dzou). Any ideas?
(Oh, and if you've got another SDZV11, the DIP switches are BACKWARDS of their
labels! 1=0 and 0=1. Cute, eh?)
I also have a DHV11, but no idea how to tell BSD it's there.
All I ever get from it is
dh ? csr 160020 vector 370 didn't interrupt
I think I need to set the DM address, but have no idea what to set it to.
-------
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA28694
for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:11:23 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Nov 28 10:56:52 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28689
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:11:09 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA23331
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:56:52 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:56:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811280056.QAA23331(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD/DZ-11 clone screw
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
>
> I got my hands on a Aviv DZ-11 clone. 16-line MUX. So, I go about...
> shoving it in the 83. It boots 2.9BSD off a RL02. Shove device in,
> I screwed with the dtab line - With it using dzdma in place of dzou, I can't
> make the MUX go. The kernel attaches it, but I can't seem to be able to talk
> to it. So, I switched to dzou. Now, upon boot, I get the message:
How are you trying to talk to it? If the line is marked as "modem
controlled" you will see/hear nothing until there is 'CD' (carrier
detect) present.
Typically the /dev nodes are "modem controlled" unless you add 0200
(128 dec) to the minor device number.
For 2.9 the major device number of the DZ is 21 so /dev/tty00 would
be "mknod /dev/tty00 c 21 0" and expect modemcontrol while
"mknod /dev/tty00 c 21 128" would be a "hardwired" line w/o modem
control.
> dz 0 csr 160100 vector 320 no address found for dzou
> SERIOUS CONFIGURATION ERROR^G^G^G
That's not surprising since there is no such symbol in the DZ driver ;)
'dzdma' is a replacement for the transmit interrupt routine - the
xmit interrupt goes to 'dzdma' (IF 'DZ_DMA' is enabled in the kernel
config file). 'dzdma' calls 'dzxint' at the end of dzdma's processing.
Thus if you change 'dzdma' to anything it should be to 1) a symbol
which exists <grin> and 2) 'dzxint'.
I think something bad happens if DZ_DMA is enabled but dzxint is
called directly - it probably won't work since there are two different
'dzxint' routines (one for use with dzdma and one without and the
args are different). So if the symbol 'dzdma' is present in the
kernel you probably want to least the "xmit field" in /etc/dtab
as 'dzdma'. If 'dzdma' is not present in the kernel then use 'dzxint'.
> I've tried other vectors and other bus slots, and get no improvements
> with either method (dzdma or dzou). Any ideas?
Try remaking the device nodes to indicate no modem control. Or perhaps
create a cable that asserts the necessary signals.
> I also have a DHV11, but no idea how to tell BSD it's there.
> All I ever get from it is
> dh ? csr 160020 vector 370 didn't interrupt
Quite so. The original 2.9BSD didn't support the DHV or DHU devices.
Later on there were drivers created but the original distributions
lack (according to the CSRG archive CDs) 'dhv' and 'dhu' support. The
closest 2.9 came was the venerable DH/DM.
2.11BSD does have DHV support but the silo handling of those devices
is *terrible*. If you have any choice in the matter at all get a
DHQ-11 and set it for 'DHU' mode. The DHQ can run in DHV or
DHU modes with the latter being far preferable (its behaviour is that
of the older DH-11 with regard to silo alarm level selectability).
> I think I need to set the DM address, but have no idea what to set it to.
Not for a DHV. An older DH/DM you would have needed to but that is
one of the differences (and why the DHV isn't compatible with the DH
driver) is how modem signals are handled. On a 2.11BSD system there
is a single line:
dhv ? 160440 310 5 dhvrint dhvxint # dhv terminal mux
for the DHV-11. Where the CSR/Vector were set to whatever didn't
conflict with something else.
Good Luck.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
List of licensees
by Warren Toomey
In article by Kelwin Wylie:
> I am curious to see who else has a source code license.
> I imagine there might be privacy concerns, but if there isn't,
> I would like to see the list.
> Kelwin
I can't see any harm, and it's good to know who you can share stuff with.
Here are the names I have. There are obviously more people/organisations
with licenses.
Warren
James A. Capp Greg Lehey
Ali Bahrami Oleg Levanidov
Pat Barron Yi Li
Harald Barth Andrew Lynch
Craig Bevans Douglas M. Wells
Joseph Bickel James MacKeivitch
Stefan Bieschewski Keizo Maeda
Robin Birch Masahiro Matsumoto
Hartmut Brandt Doug McIntyre
Matthias Bruestle Kristen McIntyre
W. C. Bulte Kirk McKusick
Jozc Capkyn Giegrich Michael
Brian Chase Shuji Mochida
Atindra Chaturvedi Andreas Muller
Peter Chubb Dieter Muller
Efton Collins Joseph Myers
Peter Collinson Gregory Neil Shapiro
Rick Copeland Lyndon Nerenberg
Matthew Crosby Peter Nikolaev Zhivkov
Donald Cruikshank Ray Nouell
Mrian Crzig Lennox Kevin Ogden
J. D. Knaebel Joergen Pehrson
Carlo Dapor Carl Phillips
Eric Delgado Paul Pierce
Erick Delios James R. Willing
Barry Dobyns Charles Retter
John Dodson Bruce Robertson
Anthony Duell Chang Sang-Thong
Alexander Duerrschnabel Michael Schmitz
Kevin Dunlap Steven Schultz
Hendrik Dykstra Daniel Seagraves
Charles E Owen Michael Shalayeff
Eric Fischer Gregg Sigfried
Gregor Fismer Barry Silverman
Robert G. Van Herick Michael Sokolov
David Galloway Chris Steinke
Glenn Geers Jason Stevens
Edmund Goppelt Mark Thompson
Brent Graveland Warren Toomey
Arno Griffioen Jennine Townsend
John Harvard Pete Turnbull
Martin Heller Christopher Vance
Michael Homsey Paul Vixie
Michael J. Haertel Jason Wells
Jay Jaeger Ken Wellsch
Martin James Crehan Jim Williams
David Jenner John Wilson
Neil Johnson Norman Wilson
Soren Jorvang Kelwin Wylie
Moto Kawasaki Thomas Yanuklis
Eugene Kim Thomas Zenker
Kern Koh Leendert van Doorn
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA23319
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:26:59 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Nov 27 08:28:31 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA23313
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:26:51 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13602; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:28:31 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811262228.JAA13602(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:28:31 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <981126115034.2a2004dc(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Nov 26, 98 11:50:34 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Tim Shoppa:
> The following exchange recently took place on comp.sys.dec.micro/
> vmsnet.pdp-11/alt.sys.pdp11. In it, I made the guess that PRO Venix
> is based on 2.9BSD - does anyone know more details about its heritage?
I understand that Venix is a cut-down SysIII in binary-only format. We have
SysIII in the archive in source form, if that's of any help. I doubt it will
have the device handler for the PRO 380 Time-Of-Year clock.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA23443
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:56:13 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Nov 27 08:57:56 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA23438
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:56:07 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13789; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:57:57 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811262257.JAA13789(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:57:56 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <19981127092329.U67961(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 27, 98 09:23:29 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Friday, 27 November 1998 at 9:28:31 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > I understand that Venix is a cut-down SysIII in binary-only format. We have
> > SysIII in the archive in source form, if that's of any help.
>
> Interesting. How did we get that? Or is it a 16 bit version?
> Greg
It's a PDP-11 version donated by Kirk. We also have SysV for the PDP-11,
donated by John Holden, but I can't put it in the archive because the SCO
license specifically doesn't cover SysV.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA23485
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:02:15 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Nov 27 09:03:50 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA23480
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:02:08 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA13818; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:03:50 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811262303.KAA13818(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: List of licensees
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:03:50 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <19981127092818.V67961(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 27, 98 09:28:18 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> There seem to be some obvious omissions, such as Dennis and Tim
> Shoppa. I also have the feeling that a number of others should be
> there, but I can't put a name to them.
I can only give the details of the people for whom I actually have
license numbers (both SCO, AT&T and Western Electric). If you _are_
covered by a UNIX source license, and would like access to the archive,
then please fax your license to me at +61 6268 8581. I only require the
pages with the signatures, the license numbers, and the list of UNIX
versions covered.
Thanks,
Warren
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Over 100 Ancient UNIX Licenses
by Warren Toomey
All,
I've just received another 5 SCO Ancient UNIX license details in the
mail, bringing the total purchased from SCO to 101. I think that's pretty
impressive. Just thought you'd like to know.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA22073
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:52:43 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Nov 27 02:50:34 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA22068
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:52:29 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU;
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:50:34 -0500
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:50:34 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <981126115034.2a2004dc(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Pro/Venix and Y2K
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
The following exchange recently took place on comp.sys.dec.micro/
vmsnet.pdp-11/alt.sys.pdp11. In it, I made the guess that PRO Venix
is based on 2.9BSD - does anyone know more details about its heritage?
Donato B. Masaoy III wrote:
>
> Came into a Pro 380 and loaded Venix as a means of tyring out Unix.
> Noticed that at 2000 it sets itself back to 1970. Is there fix for this?
> Should I bother?
The PRO 380 Time-Of-Year clock has two modes:
1. BCD mode, where the year is stored in two decimal digits.
2. Binary mode, where the year is stored as at least 7 bits (more
likely 8 bits - it's been a couple of months since the changes
were implemented the fix in RT-11's PI.SYS, PIX.SYS, and
SETUP.SAV to make it Y2K compliant.)
When in BCD mode, 31-Dec-99 rolls over into 1-Jan-00, and the
clock keeps accurately ticking. Venix evidently chokes on this
and doesn't interpret "00" as "2000".
As Unix is incapable of representing times internally outside
the range 1970-2038, the obvious fix is to interpret BCD years
in the range 70-99 as being in the 1900's, and the BCD years
in the range 00-38 as in the 2000's. This is, for example,
how BSD2.11 interprets the two-digit 11/93 or 11/94 clock year.
Of course, finding the sources to Pro 380 Venix to implement
the changes may be difficult. The PUPS archive has a version of 2.9BSD
patches for the Pro, and if you're lucky Venix may be close
enough that you can use the Pro-specific clock sources to patch
your kernel binary. In the 2.9BSD Pro patches, the clock
code is in "/sys-dev/prostuff.c", and begins:
/* These two fuctions handle the pro 300's clock
* This code is defunct at the end of the century.
* Will Unix still be here then??
*/
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA22435
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 05:49:47 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Nov 27 04:48:45 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA22430
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 05:49:37 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from djenner(a)halcyon.com)
Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03033;
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:48:52 -0800
Message-ID: <365DA28D.5C541C8C(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:48:45 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
CC: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K
References: <981126115034.2a2004dc(a)trailing-edge.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
There probably isn't much BSD lineage in Version 1 of Venix,
but there is some in Version 2. Probably mostly in the form
of the usual add-ons like VI.
There's some confusion about this (at least in my mind), so any
authoritative info would be interesting.
First of all there's:
"Venix/Pro" from Venturecom, which is definitely of AT&T lineage,
probably V7/SysIII for V1 of Venix/Pro, and perhaps a bit of
BSD stuff mixed in for V2 of Venix/Pro. This is what you find at
Internet archives.
Then there's:
"Pro/Venix" from DEC, which is a repackaging of Venix/Pro. Again,
there are Versions 1 and 2 of this. I have V1 and docs for V2,
but no disks for V2.
I'd really like to find a copy of the distribution of DEC
Pro/Venix V2, if it's legal (and having the Ancient Unix license
would seem to make it OK for at least the AT&T side).
For Pro/Venix, V2, the manual entry for
"clock(7) - time-of-day clock" is:
/dev/clock refers to a time-of-day, battery-backed-up clock. This
device node is provided primarily for the benefit of the date com-
mand, which will read from it given the -l flag (usually done on
system start-up), and write to it if a new date is set.
...
struct clkbuf {
int clk_sec; /* second (0-59) */
int clk_min; /* minute (0-59) */
int clk_hour; /* hour (0-23) */
int clk_mday; /* day of month (1-31) */
int clk_mon; /* month (0-11) */
int clk_year; /* year (00-99) */
int clk_wday; /* day of the week (Sunday = 0) */
int clk_yday; /* day of the year (0-365) */
int clk_dst; /* non-zero if daylight savings applies */
};
So, it looks bad at least from the internal representation of the
year. Since I don't have this version, I can't comment on exactly
what happens.
Dave
Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
> The following exchange recently took place on comp.sys.dec.micro/
> vmsnet.pdp-11/alt.sys.pdp11. In it, I made the guess that PRO Venix
> is based on 2.9BSD - does anyone know more details about its heritage?
>
> Donato B. Masaoy III wrote:
> >
> > Came into a Pro 380 and loaded Venix as a means of tyring out Unix.
> > Noticed that at 2000 it sets itself back to 1970. Is there fix for this?
> > Should I bother?
>
> The PRO 380 Time-Of-Year clock has two modes:
>
> 1. BCD mode, where the year is stored in two decimal digits.
> 2. Binary mode, where the year is stored as at least 7 bits (more
> likely 8 bits - it's been a couple of months since the changes
> were implemented the fix in RT-11's PI.SYS, PIX.SYS, and
> SETUP.SAV to make it Y2K compliant.)
>
> When in BCD mode, 31-Dec-99 rolls over into 1-Jan-00, and the
> clock keeps accurately ticking. Venix evidently chokes on this
> and doesn't interpret "00" as "2000".
>
> As Unix is incapable of representing times internally outside
> the range 1970-2038, the obvious fix is to interpret BCD years
> in the range 70-99 as being in the 1900's, and the BCD years
> in the range 00-38 as in the 2000's. This is, for example,
> how BSD2.11 interprets the two-digit 11/93 or 11/94 clock year.
>
> Of course, finding the sources to Pro 380 Venix to implement
> the changes may be difficult. The PUPS archive has a version of 2.9BSD
> patches for the Pro, and if you're lucky Venix may be close
> enough that you can use the Pro-specific clock sources to patch
> your kernel binary. In the 2.9BSD Pro patches, the clock
> code is in "/sys-dev/prostuff.c", and begins:
>
> /* These two fuctions handle the pro 300's clock
> * This code is defunct at the end of the century.
> * Will Unix still be here then??
> */
>
> --
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA22497
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:05:10 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Fri Nov 27 05:04:36 1998
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA22489
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:05:00 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22036;
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:04:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199811261904.OAA22036(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:04:36 -0500 (EST)
Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-Reply-To: <981126115034.2a2004dc(a)trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 26, 98 11:50:34 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi Tim,
| The following exchange recently took place on comp.sys.dec.micro/
| vmsnet.pdp-11/alt.sys.pdp11. In it, I made the guess that PRO Venix
| is based on 2.9BSD - does anyone know more details about its heritage?
There are several folks with vastly better knowledge on this than I, but
should they not speak up, I'll mumble on what little I know.
Venix is an outgrowth of V6 UNIX I believe - from my fadding memory of
the little I played with it, the file system is definitely V6 based (with
the notion of "huge" files, i.e. the index pointers would switch from
direct to indirect, while I believe V7 took a much better approach).
The 2BSD branch I believe took a much later fork, V7 or later? It also
played a more central role than Venix I expect, contributing a goodly
amount of later PDP-11/UNIX based things that others borrowed (e.g. Ultrix
3 from DEC took csh and vi among other goodies).
| As Unix is incapable of representing times internally outside
| the range 1970-2038, the obvious fix is to interpret BCD years
| in the range 70-99 as being in the 1900's, and the BCD years
| in the range 00-38 as in the 2000's. This is, for example,
| how BSD2.11 interprets the two-digit 11/93 or 11/94 clock year.
Gee, I didn't think there was one "UNIX" in the world 8-) How big are
your integers? Do you use signed or unsigned values for the epoch since
Jan 1 1970? It seems hard to believe anything in the UNIX world of today
has this limitation.
I'll agree there is likely just the one "RT-11" though 8-)
-- Ken
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA22536
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:17:19 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Nov 27 05:15:17 1998
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA22531
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:17:10 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU;
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:15:17 -0500
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:15:17 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <981126141517.2a2003cb(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>There's some confusion about this (at least in my mind), so any
>authoritative info would be interesting.
I agree - and would love more definitive information (Or, even
better, the sources to Pro/Venix.) I've
learned an amazing amount about segments of the Unix lineage
just from the comments in the past week, but the gaps in
my knowledge still loom large!
It's entirely possible that Pro/Venix uses the Pro
clock in BCD mode - it looked to me that the 2.9BSD version
does it in binary mode.
>struct clkbuf {
> int clk_sec; /* second (0-59) */
> int clk_min; /* minute (0-59) */
> int clk_hour; /* hour (0-23) */
> int clk_mday; /* day of month (1-31) */
> int clk_mon; /* month (0-11) */
> int clk_year; /* year (00-99) */
> int clk_wday; /* day of the week (Sunday = 0) */
> int clk_yday; /* day of the year (0-365) */
> int clk_dst; /* non-zero if daylight savings applies */
>};
>
>So, it looks bad at least from the internal representation of the
>year.
It depends on what you want to call "bad". It's quite possible
to build a Y2K compliant system out of non-Y2K compliant
components!
2.11BSD's date(1) was patched for Y2K in such a way that "00" in
the two-digit year would be interpreted as the year 2000. (See
patch #327 for the details.)
Would similar fixes for more historic Unices be useful to the general
folk here?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA22638
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:50:39 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Nov 27 05:49:47 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA22633
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:50:31 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from djenner(a)halcyon.com)
Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03155;
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:49:55 -0800
Message-ID: <365DB0DB.CD18A664(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:49:47 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
CC: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K
References: <981126141517.2a2003cb(a)trailing-edge.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
It's "bad" in the sense that the evidence available (empirical,
and sparse code) suggests that the software (and probably the
hardware) is working with only two-digit years.
You could, of course, try to remedy the Y2K problem by properly
handling the clock. But the evidence suggests that the
problem may be spread over lots of code. As you say, it would
be nice to have the Pro/Venix code (as opposed to the Venix/Pro
code).
DEC's Pro/Venix is more flexible than Venturecom's Venix/Pro.
You can write and link custom device drivers with the kernel
in Pro/Venix. There is some hope you could actually "fix"
/dev/clock, but this probably isn't enough to solve the whole
Y2K problem.
Again, any knowledge about the whereabouts of even the binary
distribution disks of DEC's V2 Pro/Venix would be great.
Dave
Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
> >There's some confusion about this (at least in my mind), so any
> >authoritative info would be interesting.
>
> I agree - and would love more definitive information (Or, even
> better, the sources to Pro/Venix.) I've
> learned an amazing amount about segments of the Unix lineage
> just from the comments in the past week, but the gaps in
> my knowledge still loom large!
>
> It's entirely possible that Pro/Venix uses the Pro
> clock in BCD mode - it looked to me that the 2.9BSD version
> does it in binary mode.
>
> >struct clkbuf {
> > int clk_sec; /* second (0-59) */
> > int clk_min; /* minute (0-59) */
> > int clk_hour; /* hour (0-23) */
> > int clk_mday; /* day of month (1-31) */
> > int clk_mon; /* month (0-11) */
> > int clk_year; /* year (00-99) */
> > int clk_wday; /* day of the week (Sunday = 0) */
> > int clk_yday; /* day of the year (0-365) */
> > int clk_dst; /* non-zero if daylight savings applies */
> >};
> >
> >So, it looks bad at least from the internal representation of the
> >year.
>
> It depends on what you want to call "bad". It's quite possible
> to build a Y2K compliant system out of non-Y2K compliant
> components!
>
> 2.11BSD's date(1) was patched for Y2K in such a way that "00" in
> the two-digit year would be interpreted as the year 2000. (See
> patch #327 for the details.)
>
> Would similar fixes for more historic Unices be useful to the general
> folk here?
>
> --
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Wortner, Frank (RSCH) <Frank_Wortner(a)ml.com> writes to me:
> P.S. You might want to forward this to the PUPS list, since I'm no longer
> an active member (emal address changes, etc.)
Doing so.
Forwarded message:
>From Frank_Wortner(a)ml.com Wed Nov 25 11:31 EST 1998
Return-Path: <Frank_Wortner(a)ml.com>
>From "Wortner, Frank Thu Nov 26 02:27:07 1998
Received: from hudutilgw.ml.com by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4)
id LAA16359; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:31:34 -0500
Received: from mail1.ml.com ([199.201.57.137])
by hudutilgw.ml.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/MLgwo-4.02) with ESMTP id LAA25304
for <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:27:52 -0500 (EST)
Received: from ewfd12.exchange.ml.com (ewfd12.exchange.ml.com [146.125.111.6])
by mail1.ml.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/MLml5-4.03b) with ESMTP id LAA00612
for <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:27:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: by EWFD12 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9)
id <XJFJ99ZK>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:27:13 -0500
Message-ID: <B27EB33BAB29D2119ABF0001FA7EF28911B0D4@EWFD04>
From: "Wortner, Frank (RSCH)" <Frank_Wortner(a)ml.com>
To: "'mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu'" <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:27:07 -0500
This one I know the answer to. "Tahoe" was the internal name for a computer
called the "Compter Consoles Inc. 632." (At least that's what I recall."
The machine itself was a light grey cube about the size of a VAX 750 CPU.
The cube housed the CPU, the disk drives (Fujitsu "Super Eagles" I think)
and an auto-loading tape drive. If I recall correctly, the manufacturer
was located in Rochester, New York, USA.
I used to sys admin one of these beasts -- a *long* time ago. They were
pretty durable: mine not only survived an air condioner failure during
which the temperature rose to more than 100 degrees Fahrenheit, it actually
kept on working without a break for several hours!
It was a good box, an attempt at a "VAX-killer," but it never really
managed to grab a substantial base from DEC's boxes.
Frank
P.S. You might want to forward this to the PUPS list, since I'm no longer
an active member (emal address changes, etc.)
26 years, 5 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Net2 Status: likely outcome
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Therefore, once SCO reads through the legal documents (which they now
> own), I'd be pretty sure that they will still treat Net/2 as
> contaminated, and people will need a 32V license in some form in order to
> legally acquire a copy of the Net/2 tape.
Then until/unless Warren tells me otherwise, I'll keep Net/2 together
with the real 4BSD distributions in Distributions/4bsd/net2, readable by
the members of the pupsarc group only.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA15311
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:22:17 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
4BSD distributions
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
All 4BSD distributions formerly in my home directory on minnie are now
in the Distributions/4bsd directory. This directory is now owned by me, and
from now on I will be maintaining PUPS's 4BSD collection.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA17141
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:48:09 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Net/2: still at ftp.uu.net
by Warren Toomey
In article by J. Joseph Max Katz:
> They may have the sources rm'd that aren't supposed to be there.
As far as I can tell (at a quick glance), the distribution is intact.
I'm just comparing cksums between the Net/2 on the CSRG CD#2 and from
the ftp site. I'm only doing sys/kern and sys/ufs.
Absolutely no difference. diff on all file pairs gives no output.
cksum gives the same checksums for each file pair (CD vs ftp).
Hmm.....
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA14564
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:24:57 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Nov 25 12:20:41 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA14559
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:24:49 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06820; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:20:41 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811250220.NAA06820(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Net/2: still at ftp.uu.net
To: simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk (James Lothian)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:20:41 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <01BE1817.1E6F2EF0@SONAR> from James Lothian at "Nov 25, 98 01:58:33 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by James Lothian:
> In the UK, sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk has a directory
> /computing/systems/unix/4.3bsd-net2, which
> seems to be all the unencumbered bits of net/2.
> James
It appears that several files from sys/kern and sys/ufs
have been removed. All files still in these directories
are intact. I haven't examined any other directories.
They're in a safer legal position.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA15323
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:22:44 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
4.3BSD Rev 2 Foreign
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have analyzed Rick's 4.3BSD Rev 2 Foreign images in
Distributions/4bsd/43rev2 and converted them into the standard BSD release
format used by me as the maintainer of 4.3BSD. I didn't change the contents
of any files, I just gave the directory and all files their systematic
names (being systematic and punctual in packaging and naming is essential
to maintaining an archive of many different versions of software). I also
uncompressed and recompressed all files so that the names stored inside the
gzip headers are correct. Finally, I have created a tar tvf listing for
every tarball. The result is in /usr/home/msokolov/43rev2_f. Warren, please
put this into the main PUPS archive.
Note, though, that usr.tar (file 4) is cut short. I have indicated this
in the BROKEN.TXT file. Also this is a "foreign" tape, meaning that it has
a slightly crippled crypt(3) and missing crypt(1). Given that this tape is
both a little broken and "foreign", CWRU's 4.3BSD tape images in
/usr/home/msokolov/43.vax may be a better choice for some people. They have
normal crypt(3) and crypt(1) and have absolutely no defects. (That's the
advantage of 1600 BPI over 6250 BPI. Rick seems to be having a really hard
time reading 6250 BPI 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe tapes, while CWRU's 1600 BPI 4.3BSD
tapes read fine on the first attempt.) Rick's ones are Rev 2, though, and
CWRU's are not.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA10697
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:46:42 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Tue Nov 24 20:46:15 1998
Received: from moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk (exim(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk [131.111.24.35])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA10692
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:46:27 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from a.f.r.bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk)
Received: from localhost.cam.ac.uk
([127.0.0.1] helo=moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk ident=afrb2)
by moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.03 #1)
id 0ziFz6-0001EI-00
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:46:16 +0000
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Version 7 for the PERQ
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:46:15 +0000
From: Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <E0ziFz6-0001EI-00(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
A question which I have been meaning to ask for a while and which I
was reminded of by the discussion of the AMD 2900 bit slice processors
was a version of AT&T V7 unix for the ICL PERQ computer. This was so
similar to the original that the manual was an original AT&T
one with instructions on which pages to pull out and throw
away and some new ones to insert. [basically all PDP11 hardware
specific ones go; and there are some new bits such as chatter as
simple serial comms program]. I have several binary only
distributions of this -- it was called PNX.
What I'd be really interested to know is how it evolved from V7;
in particular the new version of `m40.s'. In particular it seems
to run on top of a rather weird instruction set which isn't
very like that of the PDP11 (which would have seemed like an obvious
choice at first sight for a soft-microcodeable machine). The
use of as and cc with options to write out assembler is considered
as `not a user option' in the manual; although it still works.
I have to say that in general the port seems quite bad and in
need of lots of work to make it correctly functional. However
it's nice to have V7 readily available on a graphics workstation
with 1Mb RAM and 768x1024 display :-)
I'd be very interested to find out more of the source to PNX
or especially the microcode
Alan
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA12215
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:53:20 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Nov 25 02:19:01 1998
Received: from knecht.Sendmail.ORG (knecht.sendmail.org [209.31.233.160])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA12210
for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:53:10 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178])
by knecht.Sendmail.ORG (8.9.2.Alpha2/8.9.2.Alpha2) with ESMTP id JAA08533;
Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:53:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07519;
Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:19:01 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199811241619.IAA07519(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:05:52 EST."
<981123110552.2a200243(a)trailing-edge.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:19:01 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
From: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:05:52 -0500
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
>for their Power 6/32 processor.
That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
ports?
And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com)
The 4.3-Reno distribution was named after the city of that name
in Nevada. We picked that name because the 4.3-Reno distribution
was an interim release on the way to 4.4BSD and hence was not as
fully polished or tested as our production releases. The idea was to
remind recipients that it was more of a "gamble" to run Reno than
our production releases.
Kirk McKusick
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA13346
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:03:30 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Nov 25 09:05:02 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA13341
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:03:22 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05334 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:05:03 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811242305.KAA05334(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Net2 Status: likely outcome
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:05:02 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I haven't heard back from SCO re the Net/2 status, but given that USL
was sold to Novell & then to SCO, and they have copies of all the legal
documents, I'm sure that SCO will quickly find out the details of the
USL vs UCB settlement.
Kirk has told me that the settlement explicitly stated that a set of
files from Net/2 was not to be distributed, and that this set of files
was not to be revealed: this was done to prevent a subset of Net/2
from being freely redistributed. CSRG made changes to about 70 files
and deleted three files outright.
Kirk is legally unable to reveal the list of affected files in Net/2.
I've just had a poke around the SCCS files on CD#4 on the CSRG CD set.
Several of the SCCS comments for the kernel files have the word USL in
them:
add USL's copyright notice
changes for 4.4BSD-Lite requested by USL
There's also a list of binary-only files in BSD/386 1.1 at
http://www.bsdi.com/info/lawsuit/940208.update
I assume, therefore, that it wouldn't be too hard to find out the set of
files in Net/2 affected by the settlement.
Therefore, once SCO reads through the legal documents (which they now own),
I'd be pretty sure that they will still treat Net/2 as contaminated, and
people will need a 32V license in some form in order to legally acquire
a copy of the Net/2 tape.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA13502
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:54:36 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Nov 25 09:56:09 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA13497
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:54:29 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05513 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:56:10 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811242356.KAA05513(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Also: PUPS digest mail list
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:56:09 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I should also say that there's a digest form of the PUPS/TUHS mail list
which comes out twice weekly. If you'd rather be on that list, please
send me some email.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA13797
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:58:43 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Nov 25 11:00:17 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA13790
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:58:36 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05738 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:00:17 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811250100.MAA05738(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Net/2: still at ftp.uu.net
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:00:17 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Just FYI, net/2 afficionados might care to look around in
ftp://ftp.uu.net/systems/unix/bsd-sources
I assume that they are in a legally dubious situation.
Warren
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
When I wrote in a previous message:
> Actually, gcc is even worse than a mere mortal,
> since it's GNU. It comes directly from the Inferno.
I didn't know that Lucent has a product named Inferno, as some people
have pointed out to me. In any case, I meant the actual Inferno, also known
as Hell, i.e., the fifth dimension of the Universe inhabited and ruled by
Satan, not the Lucent product.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA06745
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:27:45 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Nov 24 13:27:57 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA06740
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:27:36 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04039; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:27:57 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811240327.OAA04039(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: BSD Network Version 2 upload
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:27:57 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199811240218.VAA17230(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 23, 98 09:18:03 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> > I'll check with SCO [what their stance is on the Net/2 tape]
>
> That's a good idea. Please let us know what they say.
Dion at SCO doesn't even know what Net/2 is. I've sent him some details.
He wants to know exactly what the settlement was between USL and UCB in
regards to the Net/2 tape. I don't have the exact particulars here
(just a News article from Keith Bostic), so I've asked Kirk if he could
give me the exact ruling. I'll pass on any words from SCO to the mailing
list as I receive them.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA06960
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:50:10 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Nov 24 13:47:41 1998
Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA06955
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:50:01 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au)
Received: (qmail 31771 invoked from network); 24 Nov 1998 02:53:55 -0000
Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115)
by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 24 Nov 1998 02:53:55 -0000
Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0zi9RP-0003pFC; Tue, 24 Nov 98 14:47 AEDT
Received: from localhost (dave@localhost)
by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id OAA06899
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:47:42 +1100
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:47:41 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
X-Sender: dave@fgh
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
In-Reply-To: <199811231820.NAA16912(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9811241432560.399-100000@fgh>
X-No-Archive: Yes
X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk"
X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> I have noticed that the Tahoe architecture is big-endian (I use this to
> easily tell between VAX and Tahoe binaries and filesystem dumps). Is this
> what you mean? Or is there any more backwardness?
It's basically a big-endian Vax. When disassembling code, I never knew
whether to wear my Vax hat or my Motorola hat :-) I believe that the
Harris 7, the ICL Clan etc were just badge-engineered. Nice machine,
and no relation to the CCI 5/32 and the 5/32X (680x0) other than the
manufacturer.
> At least the FPU card was optional, since the Tahoe code in BSD has a
> emulator for it.
And the Ethernet card cost AU$10,000 (ca. 80s). It had a STUPID ribbon
cable connector to the D15 socket; misalign it by one pin (easy to do),
since there was no key; you had to count 13 pins down) and you blew the
card. I did, once...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA09053
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:50:38 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: BSD Network Version 2 upload
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I'll check with SCO
That's a good idea. Please let us know what they say.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA06533
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:07:12 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: BSD Network Version 2 upload
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> writes:
> I have just put BSD Network Version 2 up on Minnie in the incoming
> directory.
Warren, I think this one should go into minnie's anonymous FTP area,
since it does not require a UNIX license and was specifically designed to
be publicly distributable. I didn't do any repacking on it in my home
directory, since it's just one big tarball. I've done a tar tvf on the
tarball, though, and the listing produced is in /usr/home/msokolov/NET2.lst
on minnie.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05240
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:16:26 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Nov 24 08:17:39 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA05234
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:16:14 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03246; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:17:39 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811232217.JAA03246(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:17:39 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199811231709.MAA09886(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Nov 23, 98 12:09:28 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys:
> I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
> I have uncovered three discrete distributions, one labelled IBM,
> and two non-labelled, but which were apparently out of IBM or related
> to IBM in some way, maybe after IBM dropped AOS, but I am not sure.
> The background of it all is a mystery.
>
> Is there any interest on the list to archive the ports that I have?
> Warren?
I tell you what, Bob. I'll mirror whatever you've got :-)
But you'll have to organise it and write the READMEs!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05265
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:18:02 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Nov 24 08:19:29 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA05260
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:17:55 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03263 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:19:30 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811232219.JAA03263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: 4BSD bloat
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:19:29 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <199811231747.MAA16896(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 23, 98 12:47:58 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
>I have heard jokes that CSRG got Microsoft to rewrite 90% of the code for them.
>Seriously, though, the bloat starts in Reno and really gets out of hand in 4.4.
>The sources are bloated just as much as the binaries, so I wouldn't blame it
>just on the compiler or the libraries.
I can hear Steven Schultz say that the address space limitations of a
16-bit architecture help to minimise software bloat :-)
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA05725
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:44:18 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Nov 24 09:53:48 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05720
for <pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:44:03 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from rickgc(a)calweb.com)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA01899;
Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:43:52 -0800 (PST)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981123155338.00935c40(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:53:48 -0800
To: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Upload BSD4.3 Rev. 2, Foreign Master
Cc: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear PUPS list,
I have up loaded to Minnie the "BSD4.3 Revision 2 for VAX, Foreign Master"
passed to me by
Mr. Kirk McKusick. This tape image is zipped with WinZip 6.22 and includes
a readme file.
Sincerely,
Rick Copeland
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA06184
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:03:08 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Nov 24 11:04:26 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA06179
for <pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:02:58 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03819; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:04:26 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811240104.MAA03819(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Upload BSD4.3 Rev. 2, Foreign Master
To: rickgc(a)calweb.com (Rick Copeland)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:04:26 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981123155338.00935c40(a)pop.calweb.com> from Rick Copeland at "Nov 23, 98 03:53:48 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Rick Copeland:
> Dear PUPS list,
>
> I have up loaded to Minnie the "BSD4.3 Revision 2 for VAX, Foreign Master"
> passed to me by Kirk McKusick.
> Rick Copeland
It's now available in Distributions/4bsd/43rev2 in the PUPS Archive.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA06315
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:21:31 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Tue Nov 24 11:15:24 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA06309
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:21:22 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk)
Received: from [212.228.120.103] (helo=SONAR)
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.053 #1)
id 0zi7AG-0001Y2-00
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:21:12 +0000
Received: by SONAR with Microsoft Mail
id <01BE1748.F7E9EE60@SONAR>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:22:57 -0000
Message-ID: <01BE1748.F7E9EE60@SONAR>
From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk>
To: "pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: 4.3-VAX distributions
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:15:24 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Just thought I'd throw my oar in: my 11/750 is currently running a version
of 4.3 taken off a set of tapes I saved from being thrown out by a Uni
department I used to work for. The labels on the tapes say:
Ultrix
4.3+NFS Wisconsin UNIX 1/15/87
And another label says:
* The contents of this tape are distributed to UNIX/32V,
System 3 or System 5, and SUN 3.0 NFS licencees only,
subject to your software agreement with AT&T (Western
Electric), your license agreement with the Regents of the
University of California, and your license agreement with
SUN Microsystems.
* The University of Wisconsin - Madison Computer System
Laboratory assumes no responsibility for unauthorized use
of these contents by non-licensed entities.
RCS strings seem to indicate that the code was maintained by
someone called Tad Lebeck.
As far as I can tell, it's mainly a fairly stock early 4.3 with no disk-labels,
with all the sun rpc/yp/nfs stuff grafted on and a whole lot of bugs that
I've had no end of fun fixing.
Does anybody know anything about the history of this version? In particular,
does it bear any real relation to Ultrix, or is the tape just mis-labelled?
If anybody else out there is running this thing and wonders why ptrace(2) causes
such mayhem, or why portmap crashes when they try to run YP, I'd be happy to
supply patches....
James
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA06440
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:49:02 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Eric Edwards" <eekg(a)ix.netcom.com> Tue Nov 24 11:40:51 1998
Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA06435
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:48:44 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from eekg(a)ix.netcom.com)
Received: (from smap@localhost)
by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4)
id TAA20720 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:48:00 -0600 (CST)
Received: from roc-ny1-13.ix.netcom.com(199.183.209.45) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3)
id rma020559; Mon Nov 23 19:47:10 1998
Message-ID: <002e01be174b$8a9ec6c0$2dd1b7c7(a)#eekg.ix.netcom.com>
From: "Eric Edwards" <eekg(a)ix.netcom.com>
To: <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:40:51 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
The Power 6/32 Tahoe was a product of Computer Consoles Inc. (CCI). The
internal codename was "Tahoe", as all the CCI processors were named after
lakes in the US (others I can remember were Erie and Huron). It was
originally intended to compete with the VAX-11/780 - depending on the
benchmark it was 5 to 10 times faster than the VAX and much smaller and
cheaper.
The base processor consisted of 5 boards - implemented with AMD 2900 series
bit slice processors, PLAs and 74F series parts. Surprisingly the bit-slice
processors were used in the MMU - the actual ALU was 74F181s. It was a big
endian machine that was sort of a cross between a VAX and a Motorola 68K.
As mentioned elsewhere, it is rumored that if you swap the nibbles in the
instruction bytes they end up the same as the VAX...
I think it also had some odd features: the cache was on the processor side
of the mmu -- so it was indexed by virtual address and instructions were
cached in microcode form.
As guessed from the lack of boot blocks, there was another board in the
system -- the Console Processor (CP). It was a 68000 based Versabus single
board computer. The boot monitor understood BSD filesystems on both tape
and disk. It basically loaded the microcode into the CPU, loaded the boot
image (/boot?) into memory, and then started the main CPU.
CCI ported 4.2BSD to run on the Tahoe and the changes were rolled into the
4.3-Tahoe version. They also ran System V (including a dual processor
version) and CCI's own fault-tolerant Unix - Perpos.
I think the last of the Berkeley Tahoe machines ended up at Rochester
Institute of Technology's Computer Science House (http://www.csh.rit.edu)
Some guys up there were attempting to do some work with 4.4BSD and the
Tahoe.
I can probably dig up more information if anyone needs it...
-----Original Message-----
From: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>
Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 6:47 PM
Subject: What *was* the Tahoe?
> What is the "Tahoe"?
>Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com)
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA06491
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:04:41 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sun Nov 22 18:47:00 1998
Received: from cornelius.INS.CWRU.Edu (root(a)cornelius.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.216])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06486
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:04:32 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu)
Received: from k2.cwru.edu (k2.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.50]) by cornelius.INS.CWRU.Edu with SMTP (8.8.8+cwru/CWRU-3.4)
id VAA13725; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:04:27 -0500 (EST) (from mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>)
Received: from skybridge.scl.cwru.edu by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4)
id VAA27293; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:08:09 -0500
Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
id VAA17227; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:17:16 -0500
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:17:16 -0500
From: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811240217.VAA17227(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: BSD Network Version 2 upload
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
J. Joseph Max Katz <jkatz(a)cpio.net> writes:
> Does Net/2 produce a completely working binary system?
No. It contains only the sources, and if you try to build it, you'll get
stuck immediately because about half of the source files were simply
deleted.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA06512
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:05:26 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
by allisonp＠world.std.com
< U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we alre
< have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
< "renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pret
< damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
Tahoe is Lake Tahoe California, Reno is in Nevada. The connection is
the two of the cities are connected by I80, The same road you'd take to
get from Boston to Berkeley. Lake Tahoe is a resort area in the mountains
about 50miles (or so) west of Reno.
In those cities sawing the branch your sitting on may well be a paying
bet or a reason to party.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA04837
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:25:36 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Nov 24 06:34:05 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA04832
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:25:22 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from rickgc(a)calweb.com)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA02213;
Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:24:11 -0800 (PST)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981123123403.0091b220(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:34:05 -0800
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
At 02:37 PM 11/23/98 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote:
>< U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we alre
>< have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
>< "renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pret
>< damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
>
>Tahoe is Lake Tahoe California, Reno is in Nevada. The connection is
>the two of the cities are connected by I80, The same road you'd take to
>get from Boston to Berkeley. Lake Tahoe is a resort area in the mountains
>about 50miles (or so) west of Reno.
>
>In those cities sawing the branch your sitting on may well be a paying
>bet or a reason to party.
>
>Allison
Well since I live so close to Lake Tahoe and Reno (Sacramento is half way
between Tahoe and Berkeley) I have got to get my two cents in here. My
guess is that Berkeley is well known as a pro party University and Reno and
Tahoe are the main party spots on the west cost! Sounds right to me!
Rick
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA04939
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:04:14 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
> the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
> these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
> ports?
Well, they have to be compatible somehow, since the same BSD tape was
used for all of them. Actually, there is much more to it. The Tahoe
architecture was specifically designed for BSD. CCI first made a vendor
release for their machines, kinda like SunOS and Ultrix, based on 4.2BSD.
Then some time after the 4.3BSD release CSRG designed to integrate CCI's
changes into the mainstream BSD tree. The result was named 4.3BSD-Tahoe.
What's interesting is that 4.3BSD-Tahoe does not have any bootblocks for
the Tahoe architecture, and the documentation often refers to the BSD
kernels being loaded by the system ROM on Tahoe. As you can imagine, having
the system ROM load your OS's kernels is one hell of a requirement, and the
Harris and Unisys machines would have to REALLY compatible with the CCI for
this to work. My guess would be that they were identical clones, just like
the PC clones that run unmodified PC-DOS.
> And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
If I'm not mistaken, there is a city somewhere on the west side of the
U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we already
have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
"renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pretty
damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA04486
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 05:49:13 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Nov 24 04:42:50 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA04481
for <pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 05:49:04 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10244;
Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:42:50 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199811231842.NAA10244(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981123125810.17938D-100000(a)grant.transarc.com> from Pat Barron at "Nov 23, 98 01:05:13 pm"
To: pat(a)transarc.com (Pat Barron)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:42:50 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> I think there were some additional licensing restrictions on AOS (e.g.,
> only available to educational institutions), so it might not be
> includable in the archive. I can probably track down folks in Palo Alto
> who worked AOS, and find out.
It might be good to find out any info or history or whatever, if anyone
still knows anything. If IBM does not particularly want it, it might
be nice to add to the archives, as an educational one-up on Gates.
> As far as I know, there was never an "official" ACIS release beyond the
> 1988 4.3BSD release. I have actual distribution tapes around somewhere,
> and could probably make tape images available if it's determined that
> that's OK.
Then what are the `Reno' and `Lite' builds that I have. I was assuming
they were all related, or were there other ports done outside IBM?
Now I am less clear on what it is I actually have......
> P.S. We just dumpster-ized about 6 or 8 RTs from our storage facility
> in the last couple of weeks - I had tried to give them away, but
> the person who was lined up to take them didn't move quite fast
> enough, and the person assigned to storage clean-up got tired of
> having them around ... :-(
Darn! Always one step behind and two weeks late.....
If there are any leftover AOS docs, or any leftover boards, particularly
the external ESDI, SCSI, TAPE, or ethernet boards, or any leftover mice,
that would be nice to locate. Also, a spare tape drive would not hurt.
Dupster fodder......(:+{{.....
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA04591
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:17:42 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Nov 24 05:27:21 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA04586
for <pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:17:33 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from rickgc(a)calweb.com)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA10904
for <pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:17:27 -0800 (PST)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981123112715.0092ed20(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:27:21 -0800
To: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: BSD Network Version 2 upload
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
PUPS List,
I have just put BSD Network Version 2 up on Minnie in the incoming
directory. This is from a
tape passed to me from Mr. Kirk McKusick. The file includes a readme and
is zipped with WinZip
version 6.22.
Sincerely,
Rick Copeland
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA04712
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:37:33 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> writes:
> And, as I recall (I used to work for STC Australia who sold 'em) it
> had the instruction set of a Vax [...]
Aha! I always suspected that the Tahoe architecture was somehow related
to VAXen, I just didn't know how. Now we all know...
> [...] but backwards, if you know what I
> mean...
I have noticed that the Tahoe architecture is big-endian (I use this to
easily tell between VAX and Tahoe binaries and filesystem dumps). Is this
what you mean? Or is there any more backwardness?
> The CPU was five boards, something like integer card plus
> FPU card plus priority arbitrator card etc.
At least the FPU card was optional, since the Tahoe code in BSD has a
emulator for it.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA04317
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 05:07:56 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> GCC2 on a 9mb machine isn't a pretty sight so pcc is actually a "good
> thing" ;)
It's _ALWAYS_ a good thing, because it's DIVINE (written by Bell Labs
Gods themselves), while gcc and others are mere mortals. Actually, gcc is
even worse than a mere mortal, since it's GNU. It comes directly from the
Inferno.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA04343
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 05:09:07 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> writes:
> I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
The University of California at Berkeley has never made any releases for IBM RT
and nor will I, so there are no BSD releases for IBM RT.
> There really is
> a large bloat between the 4.3 and 4.4 levels in my stuff, too. What
> is responsible for the differences in the bloat?
I have heard jokes that CSRG got Microsoft to rewrite 90% of the code for them.
Seriously, though, the bloat starts in Reno and really gets out of hand in 4.4.
The sources are bloated just as much as the binaries, so I wouldn't blame it
just on the compiler or the libraries.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA04299
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 05:06:39 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Tue Nov 24 04:05:13 1998
Received: from mailhost2.transarc.com (mailhost2.transarc.com [158.98.14.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA04294
for <pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 05:06:23 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from pat(a)transarc.com)
Received: from grant.transarc.com (grant.transarc.com [158.98.16.11]) by mailhost2.transarc.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id NAA05380; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:05:14 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:05:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
In-Reply-To: <199811231709.MAA09886(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981123125810.17938D-100000(a)grant.transarc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I think there were some additional licensing restrictions on AOS (e.g.,
only available to educational institutions), so it might not be
includable in the archive. I can probably track down folks in Palo Alto
who worked AOS, and find out.
As far as I know, there was never an "official" ACIS release beyond the
1988 4.3BSD release. I have actual distribution tapes around somewhere,
and could probably make tape images available if it's determined that
that's OK.
--Pat.
P.S. We just dumpster-ized about 6 or 8 RTs from our storage facility
in the last couple of weeks - I had tried to give them away, but
the person who was lined up to take them didn't move quite fast
enough, and the person assigned to storage clean-up got tired of
having them around ... :-(
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA04329
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 05:08:33 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com
>Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
>for their Power 6/32 processor.
That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
ports?
And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA04103
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:15:51 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Nov 24 03:09:28 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA04098
for <pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:15:43 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09886;
Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:09:28 -0500 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199811231709.MAA09886(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
In-Reply-To: <199811220509.AAA16197(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 22, 98 00:09:52 am"
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:09:28 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > We all know now that Michael's on a crusade for 4.3-Tahoe, so would it be
> > completely unreasonable to build 4.3-Tahoe from sources under 4.3-Reno?
> > It's the most reasonable approach I can think of at the moment.
>
> That's close to what I'm doing. There are two differences, though.
> First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
> would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
> between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
> UNIX(R) and a bloated and POSIXized fallen one.) Second, what I will be
> building won't be plain Tahoe, it will be Quasijarus1, i.e., Tahoe plus
> KA650 support and shadow passwords from Reno and other improvements from
> both later CSRG code and my own brain. SCCS will be the #1 tool in the
> process.
Speaking of crusades.....(:+}}.... I sometimes feel like the orphan
child running BSD on the old IBM RT (I know, not a biggie vaxen iron,
but that is what I have and the cap that I don). It is not too
bad running 16M ram and a 20'' megapel color monitor, but the RISC
processor is running around 12mhz on an ISA bus which is not very fast.
I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
Few on the net know anything about them anymore, and docs are nil.
I asked around IBM, and sort of drew dumb quizzled looks, as if
it had vaporized long ago.
I have uncovered three discrete distributions, one labelled IBM,
and two non-labelled, but which were apparently out of IBM or related
to IBM in some way, maybe after IBM dropped AOS, but I am not sure.
The background of it all is a mystery.
The first is a ``build 0'' thing called AOS or AOS/4.3, and it
appears to be a somewhat vanilla 4.3BSD, or possibly might be
as late as Tahoe. It has pcc and a Metaware C compiler, and is not
very strange. Other than the compilers being somewhat broken and
the time never correct, it runs well, and feels like 4.3.
The second is a ``build 16'' and labelled Reno, but is running gcc
and related things. My suspicion is that it is a 4.4, but I am not
sure. It seems fairly plain and following the 4.4 docs pretty well.
I don't think it is really Reno, but was named that by someone back
in time for some developmental reason maybe having been started from
a Reno tree, although I am not sure.
The third is a ``build 433'' and labelled Lite, and seems to be somewhat
straight 4.4 and somethat Lite (has two intermixed source trees), and
is gigabyte in size, and rather strangely laid out. It may have been
the last build for the RT.
Unfortunately, original tapes and documents for these are long gone,
and I have only been able to pick up bits and pieces here and there.
I don't find mention of these ports anywhere in the usual docs, other
than a slight hint that they existed at one time. Supposedly, bits
are on a mystical CD that is reputed to exist, and I have heard of
two actual CD's that may have survived.
I have spent the last 6 months resurrecting the ports, and basically
have a reliable 4.3 running, a running but somewhat broken ``Reno''
or whatever it is (of all things vi is only 99% operational because
of terminal driver problems), and a broken but somewhat running
``4.4/4.4Lite'' or whatever that really is (it boots and barely
stays up, but I have been working on making it stay up).
Does anyone on the PUPS list remember what these things actually are,
and what level they are actually at? My historical curiosity is
getting the better of me, and like Michael, I tend to like the plain
model-T spartan simplicity of a 4.3 style machine. There really is
a large bloat between the 4.3 and 4.4 levels in my stuff, too. What
is responsible for the differences in the bloat? I get binaries about
half the size in 4.3 compared to the 4.4whatevers I have. Is that just
a function of gcc and how it codes things or libraries? Anyway, it
has been a most refreshing learning experience getting these things up
and running again.
Is there any interest on the list to archive the ports that I have?
Warren?
Out of curiosity, again, anyone else on the PUPS list running RT iron
or am I the last holdout? The few RT folks that I am familiar with
are all running AIX still, although they remember the BSDs. So much
seems to have been lost, already, or most of the machines have become
dumpster fodder.
Any insights, history, or horror stories about the old RT BSD ports are
most welcome.
Thanks
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA04175
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:35:28 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> Reno came with GCC though.
Wrong. Reno uses pcc for both VAX and Tahoe architectures, just like
4.2, 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, and all other True UNIX(R) releases. gcc is included
in the Reno distribution _as a compressed tarball_, and it's used only for
the experimental and unsupported hp300 port, and that's only because there
is no pcc support for it.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA01241
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:40:15 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Nov 23 12:26:14 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA01235
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:40:05 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id SAA20820
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:26:14 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:26:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811230226.SAA20820(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
> Wrong. Reno uses pcc for both VAX and Tahoe architectures, just like
> 4.2, 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, and all other True UNIX(R) releases. gcc is included
Oops - I actually fired up the uVax-II (first time in almost 3 years)
and typed 'gcc' and it told me 2.5.8
But as it turns out that was something I'd added later (with much work).
GCC2 on a 9mb machine isn't a pretty sight so pcc is actually a "good
thing" ;)
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA02007
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:05:00 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Mon Nov 23 16:05:13 1998
Received: from knecht.Sendmail.ORG (knecht.sendmail.org [209.31.233.160])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA02001
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:04:51 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178])
by knecht.Sendmail.ORG (8.9.2.Alpha2/8.9.2.Alpha2) with ESMTP id XAA28300;
Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:04:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03948;
Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:05:14 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199811230605.WAA03948(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 EST."
<199811230114.UAA16563(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:05:13 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 -0500
From: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
> available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
> simple question:
>
> What is the "Tahoe"?
I have been pondering over the same question for a LONG
time, and I would love to know the answer to it, as would
Rick Copeland. The ex-CSRG folks are probably the only
people on the planet who know the answer, and it looks like
Marshall Kirk McKusick is the only one of them on this list.
Kirk, do you have any insight?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
for their Power 6/32 processor. Many of their early changes to BSD
were labelled:
#ifdef tahoe
to identify the 6/32 specific code. So, when we did the port we
just called it Tahoe because its prime purpose was to add support
for the CCI 6/32 machine.
Kirk McKusick
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA02069
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:19:19 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Mon Nov 23 17:16:50 1998
Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA02064
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:19:11 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au)
Received: (qmail 4403 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1998 06:22:48 -0000
Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115)
by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 23 Nov 1998 06:22:48 -0000
Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0zhqEJ-00002RC; Mon, 23 Nov 98 18:16 AEDT
Received: from localhost (dave@localhost)
by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id SAA05724
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:16:50 +1100
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:16:50 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
X-Sender: dave@fgh
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
In-Reply-To: <199811230605.WAA03948(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9811231813070.22354-100000@fgh>
X-No-Archive: Yes
X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk"
X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Kirk McKusick wrote:
> Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
> for their Power 6/32 processor. Many of their early changes to BSD
> were labelled:
> #ifdef tahoe
> to identify the 6/32 specific code. So, when we did the port we
> just called it Tahoe because its prime purpose was to add support
> for the CCI 6/32 machine.
And, as I recall (I used to work for STC Australia who sold 'em) it
had the instruction set of a Vax, but backwards, if you know what I
mean... The CPU was five boards, something like integer card plus
FPU card plus priority arbitrator card etc.
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA03974
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:38:04 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
> available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
> simple question:
>
> What is the "Tahoe"?
I have been pondering over the same question for a LONG time, and I
would love to know the answer to it, as would Rick Copeland. The ex-CSRG
folks are probably the only people on the planet who know the answer, and
it looks like Marshall Kirk McKusick is the only one of them on this list.
Kirk, do you have any insight?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA01021
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:01:58 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: booting 4.3-reno without a tape drive
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> For a quick work-around to make a bootable 4.3 miniroot without a
> tape drive, Michael, you might consider the following (similar
> tricks will work on NetBSD distributions too):
>
> Ingredients:
> [...]
> Some other operating system to write the disk from
> (for example, VMS, NetBSD, BSD2.11 and a PDP-11/73/83/93 CPU,
> RT-11 and any PDP-11 CPU, etc.)
The last part is the problem. At this location I have only one DEC
machine, and that's the KA650 I'm trying to get Ultrix on.
The guy with the MV3400 (and the TK70/TQK70 pair inside it) is still out
for the weekend, should hear something later this evening. If that falls
through and no one helps me with a spare TQK50, I'll have to come up with
another disk for this PC I'm typing this on, install FreeBSD on it, netboot
NetBSD/vax, and use that to load Reno over the net onto another disk (the
VAX has 5 of them). Much more painful, but still better than nothing.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA00612
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:30:19 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Minnie's new domain name
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Over the summer break [...]
I was first thrown off by this (yesterday was officially the first snow
day here in Cleveland), but then I remembered that Australia is in the
southern hemisphere, so your summer is our winter, right?
> I'll add some smarts to
> minnie's web server and other services to remind people to make the
> switch in their bookmarks, hotlinks etc.
OK, will change the HostName line in my .ssh/config. I'm already using
the new domain name when posting.
> P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
> back now. I hate PC hardware.
Then why do you use it? Why not run the PUPS/TUHS server on a VAX
running 4.3BSD-Quasijarus (or 4.3BSD or 4.3BSD-Reno if you can't wait), or
maybe a PDP-11 running 2.11BSD?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
P.S. Your Sendmail is still putting .oz.au in the outgoing mail headers.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA00720
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:40:08 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Nov 23 09:31:04 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA00713
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:40:00 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA18529
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:31:04 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:31:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811222331.PAA18529(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> The lifting of the filesystem limits is in Tahoe, not in Reno. When you
> talk about the speed of Reno's binaries, what are you comparing it to? I
> know for sure that there are no significant changes in the C compiler
> between plain 4.3, Tahoe, and Reno.
UH, not quite so. Unless 4.3 and Tahoe used GCC (which they did
not). I'd say that there is a big difference between the 4.3
C compiler (pcc or whatever it started out as) and GCC. Tahoe,
while adding support for the CCI line of computers (tried to
get folks to buy one but they wouldn't go for it) did NOT use
GCC (which wasn't out yet or if it was had just started making
an appearance). Reno came with GCC though.
The older pre-Reno compilers (being straight K&R) didn't handle
prototypes - that's what you had "lint" for.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)Moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA00729
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:41:02 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Minnie's new domain name
by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Re Warren's postscript:
P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
back now. I hate PC hardware.
Perhaps it's time to dig up an old PDP-11?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA00626
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:31:02 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
booting 4.3-reno without a tape drive
by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com
Michael Sokolov wrote:
> How soon will this happen? I'm all ready to go, but unfortunately
>hardware problems are holding me back. I have solved the KA650 problem I
>was having, but now I'm stuck because neither of the two TQK50 boards I
>have works. (The drive SEEMS to work, though.) Thus the sooner I find a
>working TQK50 board (or, alternatively, a working TK70/TQK70 pair), the
>sooner will I make 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1.
For a quick work-around to make a bootable 4.3 miniroot without a
tape drive, Michael, you might consider the following (similar
tricks will work on NetBSD distributions too):
Ingredients:
Microvax II
Honest-to-goodness DEC disk or *fully* compatible 3rd-party disk.
*Fully* compatible means that it must have the same MSCP media
ID code and same number of tracks, sectors, and cylinders as
a drive already hardwired into vaxuba/uda.c. These are the
ones hardwired in:
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 60), "ra60", ra60_sizes, 42, 4, 2382 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 70), "ra70", ra70_sizes, 33, 11, 1507 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 80), "ra80", ra80_sizes, 31, 14, 559 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 81), "ra81", ra81_sizes, 51, 14, 1248 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 82), "ra82", ra82_sizes, 57, 14, 1423 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'C', 25), "rc25-removable",
rc25_sizes, 42, 4, 302 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE3('R', 'C', 'F', 25), "rc25-fixed",
rc25_sizes, 42, 4, 302 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'D', 52), "rd52", rd52_sizes, 18, 7, 480 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'D', 53), "rd53", rd53_sizes, 18, 8, 963 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'X', 50), "rx50", rx50_sizes, 10, 1, 80 },
Note that "rd54" is conspicuously missing, and I think the tabulated
rd52/53 sizes are as appropriate on a RQDX2, *not* a RQDX3.
Some other operating system to write the disk from
(for example, VMS, NetBSD, BSD2.11 and a PDP-11/73/83/93 CPU,
RT-11 and any PDP-11 CPU, etc.)
The tape distribution of 43reno_vax from the PUPS archive. Specifically,
you need these files:
miniroot
mdec/rdboot, from usr.tar
mdec/bootra, from usr.tar
etc/etc.tahoe/disktab, from src.tar
Cooking directions:
The miniroot wants to live in the swap ("b") partition of the drive. So
your first task is to find the starting block number of the swap
partition from the extracted "disktab". For example, for an
RA81, the offset ("ob=") for an RA81 is 16422 blocks. So copy
the miniroot onto the target drive starting at block 16422
(i.e. if you're under 2.11 BSD and you've partitioned the
target drive, ra0, so that partition a covers the entire disk,
do a "dd if=miniroot of=/dev/rra0a seek=16422 bs=512")
In the "a" partition of the output drive you need a copy of "boot". The
miniroot already has a filesystem with this in it, so the lazy
thing to do is to just plop another copy of the miniroot, starting
at block 0 on the output disk (i.e. "dd if=miniroot of=/dev/rra0a")
You need the secondary bootstrap in blocks 1-15 of the target
disk. Put this down with "dd if=bootra of=/dev/rra0a seek=1 bs=512"
You need a block-0 boot block on the output disk. For a Microvax,
this is rdboot. (I believe raboot is appropriate on a Unibus
or BI-bus VAX). Lay this down with "dd if=rdboot of=/dev/rra0a"
Now move the output disk to your Microvax II configuration, and boot:
>>> b dua0/r5:1
2..1..0..
loading boot
ra0: unlabeled
Boot
: ra(0,0,1)vmunix
ra0: unlabeled
338756+108644+131004 start 0x238c
4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #1: Sat Jul 28 15:19:06 1998 PDT
trent@kerberos.berkeley.edu:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.vaxminiroot
REAL MEM=16773120
und so weiter.
Now, one obvious improvement to this would be to lay down a fake
4.3-ish disk label at the start of the output disk as well. This
way the reliance on a fully-geometry-compatible disk might be avoided.
I'll work on this in my Copious Free Time (TM).
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA00512
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:14:17 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> All caps? Must be using a V(erbose)M(essage)S(system) confuser - didn't
> know there were any left :-) :-)
I'm sure you know that domain names are case-insensitive. Also note that
in the InterNIC records everything is all uppercase. As far as the mail
user names go, they CAN be case-sensitive, but most OSes, even UNIX
(Sendmail), try to be on the safe side and ignore the case in this context.
> the base 4.3 system up to and including Tahoe couldn't be cold started
> on a KA630 (much less a 650 since that didn't exist yet ;)). You _had_
> to have the Ultrix 'boot' bits&pieces to work with. The 4.3 kernel
> had uVax support in it but the boot stuff did not.
>
> With 4.3-Reno that changed but... As others have noticed the
> cold start kit didn't create tapes suitable for a uVax.
This change occurred in Tahoe, NOT in Reno. Trust me. If you don't, look
at /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci/srcsys.tar.gz and see for yourself.
> 4.3-Reno did have disklabels (the first 4.3BSD to do so) BUT the
> standalone programs still had compiled in partitions.
The disk label support first appears in Tahoe. Again, if you don't
believe me, look at /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci.
> At the time 4.3-Reno came out Ultrix was still a warmed over 4.2BSD [...]
Ultrix v4.00, which I used to run on my main production VAX when my farm
was on the net, has _ALL_ enhancements from 4.3BSD (including DNS and DBM
passwd files) and most enhancements from Tahoe (including MX record support
in Sendmail). Its disk label mechanism is rumored to be incompatible with
Tahoe's, though (haven't had a chance to test this for myself).
> [...] that DEC had corrupted
> with System V(anilla) bolted on contamination.
Here I agree wholeheartedly! But hey, just ignore all SysVile and DEC
additions and pretend it's 4.3BSD! That's what I did.
> 4.3-Reno was a transitional experiment that happened just as the CSRG
> and DEC had a serious falling out - and DEC support (Vaxen) vanished
> at that point. Any further work (4.4BSD) totally and completely
> ignored all DEC machines.
This pulled the thread that was holding everything together. Reno was
the beginning of the destructive process that eventually and inevitably led
to the disbanding of CSRG. Reno is the beginning of the end. One of the
main reasons I don't do Reno.
> Yep - you get NFS (which no 4BSD had prior to Reno).
True. I will have to hack NFS into Quasijarus somehow at some point.
This is not for Quasijarus1, though.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA00216
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:30:34 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> Exactly. The details are all in tmscpboot.c. Prepend this to the
> "tape directory", write it to TK50, B MUA0, and you're at the "="
> prompt, from which you can execute the standalone images.
I know this.
> "format" seems to crash badly [...]
Of course! The documentation says clearly that it's for hp (780/750/8600
MASSBUS and clones) and up (RH-11 and clones) disks.
> [...] but one probably doesn't need that on a Q-bus
> machine :-).
Has nothing to do with Q-bus, it's the distinction between SMDish disks
and MSCP. But yes, for MSCP you are supposed to use the controller-specific
diagnostics for formatting. For DEC ones it's a pain, but most (all?)
third-party MSCP controllers have formatting utilities in their ROMs.
> There are other ways to start it up. For example, using an already-
> running OS (some other Unix or VMS) and copying the miniroot from tape
> to the swap area of an unused disk.
Here is my preferred way. It requires at least two disks. First boot
from an Ultrix tape. That's the easiest thing in the world probably
(assuming working hardware, of course, which I don't have right now). When
you get a choice between quick installation, custom installation, and
maintenance, choose the last one. This will drop you into the shell. Now
you have Ultrix running in a RAM disk, you can do anything you want with
your disks, and you can pull the Ultrix tape out and do anything you want
with the tape drive. Then you put the BSD tape in, advance to the second
file (the miniroot) with mt fsf, and dd it to partition c on one of the
disks. Why partition c and not partition b? Why need two disks in the first
place? Because I can bet that Ultrix and BSD will have different ideas
about the default location of partition b. Then extract mdec/rdboot and
mdec/bootra from the /usr tar image on the tape, cat them together, and dd
them to the beginning of partition c (the miniroot as shipped doesn't have
a bootblock). Then reboot from that disk. Now you have BSD running!
Disklabel the other disk the way you want. This will put the bootblocks on
it automatically. Then create the root and /usr filesystems on it and
restore them from the tape. You are all set!
True, this method imposes additional requirements (two disks and an
Ultrix tape). It's also a little cumbersome (the part about the miniroot
bootblocks). However, it has two advantages over the method with the
tmscpboot tape. First, you can use the stock BSD tape, not a hacked one.
Second, even in Reno tmscpboot supports only KA630 and not KA650. If you
know VAX assembly language (I don't yet) and have a machine where you can
rebuild it, you can fix this, but again you have extra requirements.
Of course, the proper solution is to significantly redesign BSD's
installation mechanism and make it a little more like Ultrix's. That's my
plan for Quasijarus2, although Quasijarus1 will still be like Tahoe/Reno.
> The compiled-in partition tables used during an install are a real
> pain compared to, say, a 2.11BSD installation, where disklabel is
> a standalone utility! (That's a real win, Steven!)
I agree wholeheartedly! A standalone disklabel program is part of my
plan for Quasijarus2. Again, Quasijarus1 will still be like Tahoe/Reno.
> Gees, looking at the install docs there are some very real improvements
> in Reno, especially in the filesystem and the speed of recompiled
> code.
The lifting of the filesystem limits is in Tahoe, not in Reno. When you
talk about the speed of Reno's binaries, what are you comparing it to? I
know for sure that there are no significant changes in the C compiler
between plain 4.3, Tahoe, and Reno.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA00292
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:40:18 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Nov 23 08:41:31 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA00282
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:40:08 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29811; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:41:31 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811222241.JAA29811(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Minnie's new domain name
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:41:31 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199811220300.WAA16161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 21, 98 10:00:59 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Dear Warren,
>
> I see you started changing *.adfa.oz.au to *.adfa.edu.au. Should we all
> start changing this in our notes, aliases, links, etc? And just out of
> curiosity, what's changing? What did OZ.AU mean? Did it mean Australian
> universities or what? Are you changing to EDU because that's what everyone
> else uses?
>
> And while we are at it, what's ADFA? I thought the school's name is
> UNSW, isn't it?
Hi Michael, yes I should put some email out. History lesson following....
Before the Internet reached Australia, the universities had a UUCP-based
mail/news system called ACSnet, where addresses were not bang-paths but
@-based. The ACSnet software did the route lookups. Anyway, all ACSnet
computers had a `domain' name ending in .oz, e.g kre(a)munnari.oz was a valid
email address.
When we finally got Internet-connected, our country suffix was .au. To
make the transition easier, we just tacked it on to the end of the existing
domain names, thus kre(a)munnari.oz became kre(a)munnari.oz.au
More recently, to bring Australia in line with Internet conventions, .oz.au
became .edu.au. Unfortunately, ADFA never bothered to do this switch until
mid-way through this year. Over the summer break, I'll add some smarts to
minnie's web server and other services to remind people to make the
switch in their bookmarks, hotlinks etc. I'll keep it running indefinitely.
ADFA is the Australian Defense Force Academy: it has military cadets as
undergrads and civilians as postgrads. One half is run by the University of
New South Wales and teaches normal civilian university stuff. I belong to
this half. The other half is run by Defence, and teaches military history,
how to shoot with guns etc. I'm not involved with that side at all :-)
Cheers all,
Warren
P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
back now. I hate PC hardware.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA00331
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:49:26 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
What *was* the Tahoe?
by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com
I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
simple question:
What is the "Tahoe"?
It seems - based on the documentation supplied in the Tahoe-specific
installation docs - that "Tahoe" generically refers to any of several
VERSAbus machines in the Berkeley EECS department.
The CCI (Computer Consoles Inc.) Power 6/32 is frequently mentioned
as the CPU, but the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7
are also mentioned. Are these all the same architecture
and instruction set, or are they different? How was the CPU implemented -
on a chip? On a chipset? On a board? On multiple boards?
The information regarding peripherals is a bit clearer. There
appear to be many different supported VERSABus SMD-drive controllers
and at least one supported VERSABus 9-track controller.
Are any of the Berkeley EECS Tahoe machines still up and running?
How many were there? How many were outside Berkeley?
Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA01013
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:01:32 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> That would explain why I couldn't boot it, yep.
Partially. You wouldn't be able to boot it on a MicroVAX by typing "B
MUA0" even if it were complete. The reason is that the standard tape-making
script writes the VAX-11 bootstraps on the tape, not the MicroVAX ones. The
two are completely different. The big VAXen with front-end processors,
microcode consoles and such can't boot from a tape by themselves. The
bootstraps that appear on standard BSD distributions are designed to be
loaded by manually typing in a little program from the console in hex and
manually transferring control to it. The hex codes for 4 such programs (for
different tape drives and controllers) appear in the installation docs.
They cannot be ported to MicroVAXen, however, because they use some
features that exist only on big VAXen.
MicroVAXen, however, have tape boot capabilities built right into their
ROMs. Much easier for the installer, needless to say. Also needless to say,
the protocol the ROM tape boot code uses is completely different from the
one the BSD developers have crafted for their very special purpose.
Therefore, a tape needs a completely different bootstrap in order to be
directly bootable on a MicroVAX. One was written for 4.3BSD-Tahoe, and it
appears in the distributed /usr/mdec. There are two problems, however.
First, the standard tape-making scripts don't put it on the tape. Second,
it only supports KA630. When KA650 support was added, everything else was
updated accordingly, but this one was apparently forgotten. In theory, the
code looks generic enough to run on KA650 out of the box, but in practice
it has a check for SID and refuses to run if it's not 08 (MicroVAX ii).
Right now I don't know enough VAX assembly language to remove this check or
extend to accept 0A (CVAX) as well.
> In any event, I am now very happy to now have a bootable copy of
> 4.3-Reno. (Installing as I type, AAMAF.)
Do you mean the one in /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax? How did you get it
to boot on a MicroVAX? Did you pull /usr/mdec/tmscpboot out of the tarball
and make a MicroVAX boot tape?
> We all know now that Michael's on a crusade for 4.3-Tahoe, so would it be
> completely unreasonable to build 4.3-Tahoe from sources under 4.3-Reno?
> It's the most reasonable approach I can think of at the moment.
That's close to what I'm doing. There are two differences, though.
First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
UNIX(R) and a bloated and POSIXized fallen one.) Second, what I will be
building won't be plain Tahoe, it will be Quasijarus1, i.e., Tahoe plus
KA650 support and shadow passwords from Reno and other improvements from
both later CSRG code and my own brain. SCCS will be the #1 tool in the
process.
> And what stands in the way of reading around the bad blocks on Kirk
> McKusick's 43tahoe_cci distribution? Even though I know that Rick
> Copeland doesn't have all the fancy tape recovery equipment I have in my
> lab, is there some fundamental problem preventing the use of "mt fsr"
> commands to skip the bad block(s) and recover the rest of the "src" and
> "usr" tree?
If you do this you will still miss something. OTOH, if you go to the
4.3tahoe directory on Kirk's 2nd CD-ROM, you won't miss anything, since all
of /usr and /usr/src is there. I can bet that the files on that CD-ROM
match the ones on the tape byte for byte.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA14402
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:04:17 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 2
- 1
Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com
>> In any event, I am now very happy to now have a bootable copy of
>> 4.3-Reno. (Installing as I type, AAMAF.)
> Do you mean the one in /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax? How did you get it
>to boot on a MicroVAX? Did you pull /usr/mdec/tmscpboot out of the tarball
>and make a MicroVAX boot tape?
Exactly. The details are all in tmscpboot.c. Prepend this to the
"tape directory", write it to TK50, B MUA0, and you're at the "="
prompt, from which you can execute the standalone images. "format"
seems to crash badly, but one probably doesn't need that on a Q-bus
machine :-).
There are other ways to start it up. For example, using an already-
running OS (some other Unix or VMS) and copying the miniroot from tape
to the swap area of an unused disk.
The compiled-in partition tables used during an install are a real
pain compared to, say, a 2.11BSD installation, where disklabel is
a standalone utility! (That's a real win, Steven!)
>First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
>would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
>between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
>UNIX(R) and a bloated and POSIXized fallen one.)
Gees, looking at the install docs there are some very real improvements
in Reno, especially in the filesystem and the speed of recompiled
code. I'm willing to live with a bit more disk space usage, especially
for the promised speed benefits. It's not like KA630's or KA650's are speed
demons, and big cheap disks are readily available these days.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA14819
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:10:10 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Nov 22 19:00:06 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA14808
for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:10:00 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id BAA06484
for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:00:06 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:00:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811220900.BAA06484(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
All caps? Must be using a V(erbose)M(essage)S(system) confuser - didn't
know there were any left :-) :-)
> Exactly. The details are all in tmscpboot.c. Prepend this to the
> "tape directory", write it to TK50, B MUA0, and you're at the "="
Since PUPS is on a uVax kick at the moment I'll chime in with my
(not so fond) memories of trying to jack 4.3-Reno onto a uVax-II.
It was a perverse sort of fun but not something I'd willingly do
again. Burnout? Perhaps.
the base 4.3 system up to and including Tahoe couldn't be cold started
on a KA630 (much less a 650 since that didn't exist yet ;)). You _had_
to have the Ultrix 'boot' bits&pieces to work with. The 4.3 kernel
had uVax support in it but the boot stuff did not.
With 4.3-Reno that changed but... As others have noticed the
cold start kit didn't create tapes suitable for a uVax.
> prompt, from which you can execute the standalone images. "format"
> seems to crash badly, but one probably doesn't need that on a Q-bus
> machine :-).
What I ended up doing was using my 2.11BSD 11/73 to create a bootable
4.3-Reno tape for the uVax - all the pieces are there, just need a
system to 'dd' the files out with the right blocking factors, usw.
Then the fun really began. The SPL "probing" logic in the kernel
had a small problem when probing for MSCP controllers. As I recall
(and this is going back quite a few years) some 3rd party adaptors
ran at a different (lower) SPL than the probing logic expected - thus
the autoconfig routines raised the SPL higher than the interrupt
of the (Dilog I think) controller and the whole system hung. So,
to install the system you HAD to use DEC controllers - ok, I had a
RQDX3 and a couple RD53 drives present (the Dilog had a 319mb Miniscribe
disk). BUT 4.3-Reno had a bug in the MSCP driver and would not
recognize an honest to DEC RD53 drive! This was rapidly getting to be
unfun. I think the workaround (it's been a __long__ time so memory
is fuzzy) was to lie and call the drive an RA60 and then correct the
problem later. But to get the lie thru to the kernel I had to
use the standalone 'copy' program to copy a file (created on a PDP-11)
to the first couple sectors of the uVax's RD53. Sheesh!
> The compiled-in partition tables used during an install are a real
> pain compared to, say, a 2.11BSD installation, where disklabel is
> a standalone utility! (That's a real win, Steven!)
You're quite welcome. Actually 4.3-Reno served as inspiration and
reminder of pain to avoid when it came time to implement 2.11BSD's
disklabel capabilities. I swore I'd never go thru the pain of the
kernel having labels but the standalone utilities lacking them
4.3-Reno did have disklabels (the first 4.3BSD to do so) BUT the
standalone programs still had compiled in partitions.
> >First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
> >would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
> >between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
Can't be any version of Ultrix I ever used. At the time 4.3-Reno
came out Ultrix was still a warmed over 4.2BSD that DEC had corrupted
with System V(anilla) bolted on contamination. Affectionately known
as Buglix ;-) That was the same era that DEC had Ultrix-11 and that
was a mucked up 2.9BSD. Of course you have to realize DEC had "Mr.
Ken (Unix is Snake Oil) Olsen" around at the time 8-) UNIX is still
around - but DEC? No, I don't like Compaq confusers thank you ;)
4.3-Reno was a transitional experiment that happened just as the CSRG
and DEC had a serious falling out - and DEC support (Vaxen) vanished
at that point. Any further work (4.4BSD) totally and completely
ignored all DEC machines.
> Gees, looking at the install docs there are some very real improvements
> in Reno, especially in the filesystem and the speed of recompiled
Yep - you get NFS (which no 4BSD had prior to Reno). NFS doubles
the size of the kernel though (at least) so there's a memory penalty
to pay. It also brought many of the POSIX features (termios for
example).
> code. I'm willing to live with a bit more disk space usage, especially
> for the promised speed benefits. It's not like KA630's or KA650's are speed
> demons, and big cheap disks are readily available these days.
Disk is cheap. Especially for older drives (but you run the risk
that an old drive will die soon ;-(). Best to invest in a modern
SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and use current drives (that's what I did for
my 11/73 - adaptor is $$$ but the drives are cheap).
Boy, you're not just whistling Dixie (apologies to those outside the
US for which the reference is obscure). "Not a speed demon" doesn't
begin to describe it. I went, believe it or not, thru the work of
getting a newer GCC-2 (at the time I think 2.3.x was "new") to build
and run on a uVax-II under 4.3-Reno. The biggest problem was that
4.3-Reno was neither "old" (V7ish) Unix or "POSIX" (just getting off
the standard's writers desks). Getting GCC to build was a stop/go
effort for several days but in the end the build would work: about
23 hours (or so)!! Sheesh - a 11/73 can *completely* regenerate
itself from sources (all programs, manpages, etc) in about 28 hours.
It was an interesting experiment but the uVax-II has sat here for 2+
years without being powered up. At one time the thought was to port
4.4BSD over but everyone that _could_ do the work lost interest - I've
my PDP-11s and PPro systems to keep me busy so I haven't the time or
inclination to do much with a KA630 system. For "slow" I have a PDP-11
(lots of fun, keeps you humble with the address space limits ;)). For
'fast' I have a couple dual cpu PPro systems (running BSD/OS) that
can give a quad processor SUN Enterprise Server-4500 a run for their
money. I have no need of a "slow" computer that attempts to run
current day (bloated) software.
I've toyed with the idea of swapping the innards of the 11/93 and
the uVax. The KDJ11E would be a lot happier in a BA-123 than a BA-23;)
But that's as far as it's gone (thinking about it). So - if anyone
out there wants a uVax-II (9mb of memory but lots of disks and a 9-track
tape drive to go with) drop by my place (shipping's out of the
question). If you're more hardware capable than I perhaps we could
swap the stuff into a BA23 (smaller enclosure to drive home, ...).
Yikes and gadzooks - I was a bit verbose tonight (but my typing skills
are much improved! ;-)).
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA14865
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:31:53 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
4.3-VAX distributions (was Re: The files Tim Shoppa has just uploaded)
by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com
> I have just logged into minnie and diffed the files Tim Shoppa has just
>uploaded against the 43reno.vax distribution in my home directory. They are
>identical byte for byte,
Darn. And the label said it was a Tahoe distribution :-). You'll also
remember that I'm the one who found the V6 RL02 packs at UBC which, despite
all indications, are actually some sort of V7 system that has all the
internal labels reading "V6"!
> except that Tim's first file is severely
>truncated.
That would explain why I couldn't boot it, yep.
In any event, I am now very happy to now have a bootable copy of 4.3-Reno.
(Installing as I type, AAMAF.)
We all know now that Michael's on a crusade for 4.3-Tahoe, so would it
be completely unreasonable to build 4.3-Tahoe from sources under 4.3-Reno?
It's the most reasonable approach I can think of at the moment.
And what stands in the way of reading around the bad blocks on Kirk McKusick's
43tahoe_cci distribution? Even though I know that Rick Copeland doesn't have
all the fancy tape recovery equipment I have in my lab, is there some
fundamental problem preventing the use of "mt fsr" commands to skip the
bad block(s) and recover the rest of the "src" and "usr" tree?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14239
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:57:23 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
The files Tim Shoppa has just uploaded
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just logged into minnie and diffed the files Tim Shoppa has just
uploaded against the 43reno.vax distribution in my home directory. They are
identical byte for byte, except that Tim's first file is severely
truncated. The first file contains the bootstraps and the standalone
programs, and for Reno it's about 140 KB. Tim's first file is only 512
bytes, although these bytes exactly match the first 512 bytes in the
correct first file.
Resolution: the files Tim has uploaded are completely superseded by the
authentic 4.3BSD-Reno/VAX distribution in /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax and
/usr/PUPS/Distributions/4bsd/43reno.vax.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13933
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:04:29 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3BSD Tahoe binaries for uVax
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> Some further clues, for anyone who's following this bit or
> archeology:
This is clearly a 4.3BSD-Reno tape (for VAX). I'll look at it when it's
fully uploaded (you're saying it won't be until 19:00 EST, so it'll be
after the X-Files I guess), but I can bet that it's identical to the one in
/usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax on minnie (read by Rick Copeland from the
CSRG master provided by Marshall Kirk McKusick).
> The second file on the tape has the following string in it:
>
> 4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #1: Sat Jul 28 15:19:06 PDT 1990
> trent@kerberos.berkeley.edu:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.vaxminiroot
The second file is the dd image of the miniroot filesystem. This string
appears in the /vmunix file inside (the kernel). kerberos.berkeley.edu was
a VAX. The tape in /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax has also been pressed from
kerberos.berkeley.edu.
> The third file has this string in it:
>
> 4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #4 Sat Jul 28 13:24:08 PDT 1990
> trent@kerberos.berkeley.edu:/nbsd/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.allvax.
The third file is the dump of the full root filesystem. Again, this
string appears in the /vmunix file inside.
> Additionally, in the third file, there appears to be some printf-type
> strigns for configuring in the different possible CPU's supported:
>
> VAX 8600, serial# %d(%d), hardware level %d(%d)
> VAX 82%c0, hardware rev %d, ucode patch rev %d, sec patch %d, ucode rev %d
> VAX 11/78%c, serial# %d(%d), hardware ECO level %d(%d)
> VAX 11/750, hardware rev %d, ucode rev %d
> VAX 11/730, ucode rev %d
> MicroVAX-II-MicroVAX 3000, ucode rev %d
This is also obviously inside /vmunix. The set of supported CPUs is the
one for Reno.
> So the tape sticker says "Tahoe", the miniroot and Generic root claim
> to be Reno, and the fourth file (the tar archive) has the following
> mentions of Tahoe and Reno:
>
> [names on manpage directories mentioning tahoe]
It is Reno. Trust me. "tahoe" appears in the names of some manpage
directories because some manpages are architecture-specific (tahoe is the
name of a computer architecture, just like vax, hp300, i386, etc.). The
tape is mislabeled, that's all.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA13713
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:47:28 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3BSD Tahoe binaries for uVax
by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com
Some further clues, for anyone who's following this bit or
archeology:
The second file on the tape has the following string in it:
4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #1: Sat Jul 28 15:19:06 PDT 1990
trent@kerberos.berkeley.edu:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.vaxminiroot
The third file has this string in it:
4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #4 Sat Jul 28 13:24:08 PDT 1990
trent@kerberos.berkeley.edu:/nbsd/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.allvax.
Additionally, in the third file, there appears to be some printf-type
strigns for configuring in the different possible CPU's supported:
VAX 8600, serial# %d(%d), hardware level %d(%d)
VAX 82%c0, hardware rev %d, ucode patch rev %d, sec patch %d, ucode rev %d
VAX 11/78%c, serial# %d(%d), hardware ECO level %d(%d)
VAX 11/750, hardware rev %d, ucode rev %d
VAX 11/730, ucode rev %d
MicroVAX-II-MicroVAX 3000, ucode rev %d
So the tape sticker says "Tahoe", the miniroot and Generic root claim
to be Reno, and the fourth file (the tar archive) has the following
mentions of Tahoe and Reno:
$ sear file4.tar_list tahoe
755 0 Jul 29 06:26:47 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/
444 2488 Jul 29 06:26:43 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/ace.0
444 3563 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/autoconf.0
444 1321 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/cons.0
444 6446 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/cy.0
444 4074 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/dr.0
444 2331 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/enp.0
444 4121 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/ik.0
444 2498 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/intro.0
444 386 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/lp.0
444 4427 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/mtio.0
444 9321 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/vd.0
444 3816 Jul 29 06:26:46 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/vx.0
444 2271 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/mem.0
444 2271 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/kmem.0
---> share/man/cat4/tahoe/mem.0
755 0 Jul 4 18:49:29 1990 share/man/cat6/tahoe/
$ sear file4.tar_list reno
%SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched
If someone who is more aware of the 4.3BSD histories than I am
(and I'm certain that I'm one of the least-aware folks around!)
can pinpoint where in the hierarchy this tape belongs, it'd help
settle a lot of my confusion!
In the meantime, the FTP connection to minnie seems to be holding
up admirably, and folks will be able to inspect the files for themselves
sometime around 7 PM EST tonight (Saturday here - that's either
tomorrow or yesterday in Australia, I can never remember which)
in the directory
/usr/home/shoppa/43bsd_tahoe
on minnie.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA13145
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:13:57 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3BSD Tahoe binaries for uVax
by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com
> The problem is that we (PUPS/TUHS) haven't been able to find a Tahoe
>tape with VAX binaries.
I think I *might* be able to provide part of the solution to this. I have
in my posession here a TK50 tape hand-labeled "4.3 Tahoe BSD". Let me upload
it to my directory on Minnie, and maybe with some help from you guys
we'll figure out what's in it.
It has been at least a year since I've looked at the contents of this
tape, but I was under the impression that it consisted mainly of binaries,
and had very little in the way of sources on it. I'll put images of
the tape files on Minnie (hmm - a full TK50 will probably be an overnight
job) and with a little luck we'll figure out how to
make the next step. (I didn't know that this was a sought-after tape
in the first place!)
I honestly don't know if this is a VAX Tahoe distribution or for something
else (MIPS, maybe?). It did fail to boot on my KA650 when I tried it, but
your notes indicate that this was to be expected because it wasn't a KA630.
And browsing through the contents of the tape does seem to indicate that it
might be for the VAX.
The tape has 4 files on it, about 50 Megabytes uncompressed, organized as
follows:
File 1: 1 record, 512 bytes.
File 2: 205 records, 10240 bytes each.
File 3: 320 records, 10240 bytes each.
File 4: 2135 records, 20480 bytes each.
The first block has no obvious text in it. Obvious guess is a boot block :-)
The second file appears to be an executable of some sort. Running
"strings" against it turns up evidence that this is some sort of standalone
utility that knows how to write to devices with names like "ra1", "hp3",
etc.
The third file is, I would guess, the dump of a root file system.
The string "/dev/ra1a" and machine name "kerberos.berkeley.edu" turn
up near the beginning, and the dump of what appears to be the "/dev"
directory has names such as tu0, tu1, hp0a-hp0g, rhp0a-rhp0g, etc.
The fourth file is a tar archive, and appears to contain mainly binaries,
with little in the way of sources. The are links in the tar archive
to things like "/sys/vaxuba", "/sys/vax", etc., but the /sys directory
itself isn't in the tar archive. (Would this possibly be in the third
file, which I guessed is a dump of the root filesystem? The other BSD-
derived distributions that I'm familiar with do not have "/sys" or
"/usr/src/sys" in the root filesystem!)
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA12866
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:41:48 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: 4.3BSD Installation (probably off-topic)
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com writes:
> I've been looking over the recent 4.3-ish BSD distributions
> now available from the PUPS archive. Thought I'd spin off
> a copy for booting on one of my spare uVax II's [...]
The most important thing here is to choose the right version of BSD.
Plain 4.3 CANNOT boot on a MicroVAX II. Later versions, starting with
Tahoe, can. The patches provided in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions are nothing
more than pieces taken out of Tahoe. If you are going to use those, you
might want to use the whole Tahoe system just as well, it has some very
nice improvements, such as disk labels, better man mechanism, and MX record
support in sendmail.
The problem is that we (PUPS/TUHS) haven't been able to find a Tahoe
tape with VAX binaries. I'm not sure if CSRG ever bothered to even make
one, although it's as simple as executing one script on a running system
(which they obviously had). Thus in order to run Tahoe, one would have to
cross-compile it first. It's a pain and takes a lot of expertise, so I
would strongly advise you to avoid effort duplication and wait until I do
it and put the product up in my home directory on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au.
Actually since KA650 is all I have right now and Tahoe doesn't support it
(but the support code appears later in the SCCS tree), I'll go directly
from Ultrix (my cross-compilation base) to Quasijarus1, my first release,
and won't bother with Tahoe. But for all practical purposes Quasijarus1
will be Tahoe plus KA650 support, shadow passwords, and bugfixes.
Hmm, maybe your have never heard of Quasijarus Project, so I'll explain
briefly what it is. I'm taking over UCB CSRG in terms of shepherding and
maintaining pure Berkeley UNIX(R). I will first re-create it by taking
their final SCCS tree and building my initial one, deciding piece by piece
what belongs to pure Berkeley UNIX(R) and should be kept, and what is POSIX
evil spirit or bloat and should be tossed. In general I draw the line right
around the Tahoe release (summer of 1988), but I'll include anything from
Reno and later code that's worth having, such as KA650 support and Reno's
DBM-based shadow password model. Basically, I want to create a system with
a classical (pre-Reno) look and feel which at the same time has all the
quality improvements and bugfixes ever made by Berkeley, even if they are
as late as 4.4BSD. The last classical release is Tahoe, so that's my base.
I will be using Tahoe to decide what should be included and what should the
look and feel be. Once I know from Tahoe that a given piece should be
included, I'll go to the SCCS file(s) for that piece and decide which post-
Tahoe deltas should be kept (because they are bugfixes or quality
improvements) and which deltas should be tossed (because they introduce the
evil spirit of POSIX or bloat).
How soon will this happen? I'm all ready to go, but unfortunately
hardware problems are holding me back. I have solved the KA650 problem I
was having, but now I'm stuck because neither of the two TQK50 boards I
have works. (The drive SEEMS to work, though.) Thus the sooner I find a
working TQK50 board (or, alternatively, a working TK70/TQK70 pair), the
sooner will I make 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1.
> If there's a more appropriate forum for these questions, I'd
> appreciate being redirected to them!
Right now there isn't, because my main VAX farm is currently off the
net. When I get it back on the net (no time estimate, at least several more
months), I'll set up a set of mailing lists for Quasijarus Project and
Berkeley VAX UNIX in general.
> OK, Before Step I, as doucmented in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions, is:
Totally disregard these instructions, they are for plain 4.3 ONLY. If
you are using Tahoe or Quasijarus1, the distribution already supports
MicroVAXen as shipped. If you don't want to use Tahoe or Quasijarus1 and
want to use plain 4.3, you are on your own.
> Is this an actual limitation on the 43reno.vax distribution currently
> in the archive, or not?
Reno doesn't have any limitations, it already supports KA630 and KA650,
just like Quasijarus1. I personally don't use it, though, because it is not
really True UNIX any more. With the evil spirit of POSIX and a bloat by a
factor of 2 in both binaries and sources, Reno is the beginning of the
destructive process that eventually (and necessarily) culminated with the
disbanding of CSRG.
> what non-
> microvax machines will the 43reno.vax distribution boot on? 11/750?
> 11/730?
Of the big VAXen, plain 4.3 supports 11/780, 11/750, 11/730, and Venus
(should have been called 11/790, but was unfortunately named 8600). Tahoe
adds, and Quasijarus1 and Reno retain, the support for 8200.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA12654
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:42:18 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
4.3BSD Installation (probably off-topic)
by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com
I've been looking over the recent 4.3-ish BSD distributions
now available from the PUPS archive. Thought I'd spin off
a copy for booting on one of my spare uVax II's, but I'm stuck
at (literally) before step one, and don't know where to go from here.
If there's a more appropriate forum for these questions, I'd
appreciate being redirected to them!
OK, Before Step I, as doucmented in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions, is:
YOU MUST ALREADY HAVE A WORKING VAX! These instructions are useless on
a cold machine. You must have a 4.3 machine and a working uVax (probably
Ultrix!) with a tk50 drive.
Apparently, this is because the distributions don't boot on a
Microvax, and the KA630 Microvax/MSCP/TMSCP patches must be installed
and many things rebuilt on a 4.3 machine before a distribution tape can
be built to put on a VAX.
Is this an actual limitation on the 43reno.vax distribution currently
in the archive, or not? If it is a real limitation, what non-
microvax machines will the 43reno.vax distribution boot on? 11/750?
11/730?
Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA12354
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 06:15:56 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
KA650 problem
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
I'm trying to build my first release (4.3BSD-Quasijarus1), and I have
the following problem. I'm currently away from my main VAX farm, and so I
have rounded up a new VAX for this task from an independent source. It's a
KA650-based MicroVAX specially made for Xerox. The outer cabinet is made by
Xerox, but it has a BA23 mounted inside. There is no video, just a serial
terminal.
My first problem was that the beast refused to power up. I turn on the
power, but there is nothing on the console and the hex LED display on the
back says 9. I power-cycled it several times with zero effect, and then I
took the CPU board out to look at it. It looked perfectly normal, and I put
it back in. Then imagine my joy when I power up the VAX and this time it
works! After that I worked with it for a while, and in the process I turned
it on and off a couple of times and it didn't have any problem powering up.
My next step was installing Ultrix, which is the platform I have chosen
to use for putting together the initial Quasijarus SCCS tree and cross-
compiling the very first Quasijarus build. However, when I tried to boot
from the Ultrix tape, I got a "?4B CTRLERR" (after an _extremely_ long wait
with a lot of retries), which according to my docs means some hardware
error. I reasoned that it has to be either the TK50 drive or the TQK50
controller. I don't have any spare TK50s at this location, but I do have
one spare controller, and so I tried swapping it. I turned the machine off,
swapped the board, and turned it back on. And guess what, that ugly 9 came
back! I haven't been able to power up the VAX since then.
I started investigating. I don't have any docs for KA650, but I do have
some for KA655. According to these docs, the KA650 series CPUs have very
elaborate ROM diagnostics organized in the form of scripts, some of which
are executed at power-up. The manual lists all scripts, indicating the
order of the tests and the hex LED display codes. According to this manual,
the only tests which display a 9 are fairly late in the sequence and are
fairly benign (shouldn't stall the power-up even if failed). The problem
I'm seeing, OTOH, appears to be very early. For example, the console line
loopback test appears to be one of the very first, and yet my VAX always
stalls on the 9, even if I put the switch in the T-in-the-circle position.
I have also watched the hex LED display very carefully right as I flip the
power switch, and as far as I can tell it goes directly from F (waiting for
DCOK) to 9. Finally, disconnecting the bulkhead and the memory interconnect
produces absolutely no effect, suggesting that the culprit is the CPU board
and nothing else. Also pushing the RESTART button on the front panel
produces absolutely no effect, if the 9 was there it just stays there,
there is no F appearing for a short time or anything like that. What does
the RESTART button do, anyway?
Does anyone here have a clue as to what's going on? Does anyone have a
KA650 manual? Can anyone tell what the hell does the 9 stand for? Any ideas
on how this can be fixed (other than replacing the CPU board)? TIA.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA06383
for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:08:01 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Fri Nov 20 18:07:44 1998
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA06373
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:07:51 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from bdc(a)world.std.com)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id DAA11514; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 03:07:45 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA01332; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:07:44 -0800
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:07:44 -0800 (PDT)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Cc: NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax(a)netbsd.org>
Subject: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay.
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981120000517.28198A-100000(a)world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC"
under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11
docs.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA09000
for pups-liszt; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:58:30 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Nov 21 08:57:40 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA08995
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:58:21 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from grog(a)freebie.lemis.com)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA27497;
Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:27:46 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA05923;
Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:27:40 +1030 (CST)
Message-ID: <19981121092740.F1005(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:27:40 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>,
PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Cc: NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax(a)netbsd.org>
Subject: Re: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay.
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981120000517.28198A-100000(a)world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981120000517.28198A-100000(a)world.std.com>; from Brian D Chase on Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 12:07:44AM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Friday, 20 November 1998 at 0:07:44 -0800, Brian D Chase wrote:
> Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC"
> under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11
> docs.
What's Ebay?
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA09072
for pups-liszt; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:32:18 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sat Nov 21 09:31:51 1998
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA09067
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:32:10 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from bdc(a)world.std.com)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id SAA23532; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:31:51 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA16761; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:31:51 -0800
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:31:51 -0800 (PDT)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>,
NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax(a)netbsd.org>
Subject: Re: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay.
In-Reply-To: <19981121092740.F1005(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981120153054.16667A-100000(a)world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Friday, 20 November 1998 at 0:07:44 -0800, Brian D Chase wrote:
> > Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC"
> > under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11
> > docs.
>
> What's Ebay?
Sorry about that... I'd thought everybody knew by now. It's the world's
largest and most popular on-line auction service. http://www.ebay.com/
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA12024
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:51:52 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
4.2BSD and 4.3BSD
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just uploaded the images from the 4.3BSD tapes I had read on
CWRU's MVS mainframe back in June. They are perfect (the 1600 BPI tapes
were read without any errors and the format is absolutely correct). Note,
though, that this is the June 1986 4.3BSD release, and I remember Kirk
saying that among the tapes Rick is reading there is one with 4.3BSD
revision 2, which is presumably 4.3BSD with some bugs fixed.
I have also put an honest effort into reconstructing the 4.2BSD tape
images from the files in Distributions/4bsd/Per_Andersson_4.2. The latter
have the boot/standalone system file (1st on the tape) broken, the tarball
with /usr/src also broken, and the tarball with /usr/lib/vfont simply
missing. I have manually repaired the boot/standalone system file (using my
brain and a hex editor), but unfortunately /usr/src is broken beyond repair
(so I didn't include it in my repackaging). I see no reason for the
Varian/Versatec fonts to change between BSD releases, so /usr/lib/vfont
from 4.3BSD will probably do fine. It would still be nice if Rick could
read Kirk's 4.2BSD tapes, though. For practical use 4.3BSD completely
supersedes it, but for historical purposes we should preserve 4.2BSD as
well.
This stuff is in:
/usr/home/msokolov/42.vax (4.2BSD)
/usr/home/msokolov/43.vax (4.3BSD)
on minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. (Warren, if you want to put this in the main
PUPS archive, go ahead and do it for 43.vax, as it should be ready to be
frozen, but I would hold on with 42.vax. Hopefully Rick will have some luck
reading Kirk's tapes, and then I'll update the 42.vax directory by filling
the missing pieces.)
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA15543
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:04:29 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Nov 17 05:14:44 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA15538
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:04:19 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from rickgc(a)calweb.com)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA06615;
Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:04:05 -0800 (PST)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981116111440.00922460(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:14:44 -0800
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren,
I am unable to login to minnie, I keep getting back "user rickgc access
denied!". Why?
Thanks,
Rick Copeland
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA05416
for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:57:22 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno
by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have converted the 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno tape images Rick has recently
uploaded into a more convenient format. I haven't changed anything in the
images themselves, I have simply repacked them from a single .zip into a
collection of .gz's, one per tape file. I have also prepared a listing for
every tarball. This stuff is in:
/usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci (4.3BSD-Tahoe with CCI binaries)
/usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax (4.3BSD-Reno with VAX binaries)
That's on minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. The permissions are set up so that pupsarc
group members (UNIX source license holders) can read them, but no one else can.
With Warren's permission, I would like to keep this stuff there until I set up
my own FTP site, at which time I'll announce its location.
The Reno images are perfect, but for Tahoe usr.tar.gz and src.tar.gz are bad
(everything else is fine). Apparently Rick wasn't able to read past a tape
defect (we are handling this in private E-mail).
Have fun with this stuff!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA04992
for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:37:26 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Nov 12 14:51:32 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04987
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:36:57 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05125 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:51:32 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811120451.PAA05125(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:51:32 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199811120455.XAA09098(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 11, 98 11:55:23 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
>I have converted the 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno tape images Rick has recently
> uploaded into a more convenient format. I haven't changed anything in the
> images themselves, I have simply repacked them from a single .zip into a
> collection of .gz's, one per tape file. I have also prepared a listing for
> every tarball. This stuff is in:
>
> /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci (4.3BSD-Tahoe with CCI binaries)
> /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax (4.3BSD-Reno with VAX binaries)
I'll move copies of Michael's 43tahoe.cci and 43reno.vax directories
into the main PUPS archive area, in the Distributions/4bsd area.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA01355
for pups-liszt; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:58:33 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Thoughts...
by gq696＠cleveland.Freenet.Edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever
> machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages.
Actually there is no MX record. blackwidow.CWRU.Edu is an alias (CNAME
record) for blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, which has IP address 129.22.50.4.
This IP address belongs to my VAX running Ultrix. Some time last week it
stopped responding to ping, and because I'm off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 I
can't do anything about it right now. If everything works out OK, I should
be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming
Monday, 17-AUG-1998.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579
*TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696(a)cleveland.freenet.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04850
for pups-liszt; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:54:26 +1000 (EST)
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Fri Aug 14 09:03:04 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04845
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:54:20 +1000 (EST)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA28451
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:54:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-SMTP: helo isd from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac12-81.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.81 user=rickgc
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980813160254.0091bbe0(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:03:04 -0700
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: PDP-1103
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear List,
I am trying to work with a PDP 1103 that has been removed from a Vax
11/785. The goal is to be able to write RX01's with the required boot
blocks required by NetBSD Vax to boot the 11/785. I figured that since I
had several of these 1103's that I could set one up specifically to write
RX01's by running some kind of operating system on one that would talk to
one of my other machines(Sun 3/80 running NetBSD, Sparc 2 running Solarus
2.51, Vax 3600 running NetBSD, i86's running FreeBSD, NetBSD, Windows 95)
via rs232 or what ever.
Anyone got any ideas how I might do this?
Thanks,
Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
(916) 568-6744 x36
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28571
for pups-liszt; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:32:06 +1000 (EST)
>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Wed Aug 19 00:31:38 1998
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28566
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:31:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03051;
Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:39 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id PAA19142; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:38 +0100
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:38 +0100
Message-Id: <199808181431.PAA19142(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
In-Reply-To: <199808052115.RAA12664(a)shell.monmouth.com>
References: <199808052115.RAA12664(a)shell.monmouth.com>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* Carolyn Pechter wrote:
> One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
> universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
> Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
> non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.
I may well have acces to tapes for RTUs of 1988-89 vintage, as there
were several masscomps here (in fact there still is at least one in
the basement, not working). No source though of course, and without
source they are probably less interesting. I remember RTU as being
deeply unpleasant, but that may have been more due to the HW which was
extremely flaky, at least on the bigger of our machines.
--tim
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01833
for pups-liszt; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:04:43 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 19 13:06:45 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01828
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:04:39 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12804 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808190306.NAA12804(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Yet More SCO Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
A whole bunch of SCO licenses have arrived on my desk, bringing the total
of Ancient UNIX licenses to 67.
Joseph Bickel, Atindra Chaturvedi, Peter Chubb, J. D. Knaebel, Eric Delgado,
Hendrik Dykstra, Glenn Geers, Michael Homsey, Michael J. Haertel, Andrew Lynch,
Keizo Maeda, Giegrich Michael, Lyndon Nerenberg, and Jim Williams
are all now licensed.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24019
for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:47:31 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Sep 2 00:42:20 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24014
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:47:24 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15214;
Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:42:23 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199809011442.KAA15214(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys),
bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I am curious as to the rationale and reasoning behind:
1) fs naming conventions
2) fs space allocation conventions
3) fs to partition mapping conventions
4) partition conventions
historically in unix (particularly the BSD's).
Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var?
Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to the contrib sections?
Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand
the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild,
with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it,
originally?
Why the sizes of the various fs?
I am trying to understand historically the hows and whys things developed
as they did. The SMM's don't really cover it very well.
Thanks
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24452
for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:20:52 +1000 (EST)
>From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Wed Sep 2 03:19:07 1998
Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA24447
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:20:40 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA15499; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:19:07 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:19:07 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199809011719.MAA15499(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <199809011442.KAA15214(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <199809011442.KAA15214(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Organization: The University of Chicago
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
I don't think I really have all the background necessary to answer
these questions, but I'll give it a shot anyway:
> Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var?
I believe /var originated in SunOS at a time when Sun was heavily
promoting network-mounted file systems. In order to allow /usr to be
mounted read-only across the network from a shared server, it was
necessary to move all the files that would need to be modified by a
running system from their traditional locations in /usr onto a file
system that would be writable (and probably not shared with other
systems). The rearrangement was then widely copied by other systems,
including 4.4BSD.
> Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand
> the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild,
> with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it,
> originally?
It looks like this one really originated with the Seventh Edition,
where "hp" disks were permanently partitioned as follows:
partition start length
0 0 23 -> a
1 23 21 -> b
2 0 0 -> c
3 0 0 -> d
4 44 386 -> e
5 430 385 -> f
6 44 367 -> g
7 44 771 -> h
(the start and length are in cylinders of 418 blocks apiece)
A generic installation, according to the manual, would put root on
partition 0, swap on partition 1, and /usr on partition 4 or 7.
Partitions 2 or 3 could be used to access an entire disk.
Clearly if partition 4 was used for /usr then partition 5 could be used
for something else, while if 7 was used it would take up the entire
rest of the disk. I'm not sure what the motivation was for the size of
partition 6, even though partition g now seems to be the standard one
for /usr, but presumably the space between cylinders 411 and 430 could
be put to use somehow.
The Sixth Edition also had fixed-size partitions, but of different
sizes than the Seventh Edition used:
partition start length
0 0 9614 -> a
1 18392 65535 -> b
2 48018 65535 -> c
3 149644 20900 -> d
4 0 40600 -> e
5 41800 40600 -> f
6 83600 40600 -> g
7 125400 40600 -> h
(these numbers are in blocks, not cylinders). The manual explains
the motivation for partitioning:
This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks
and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536
blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be
broken up into more managable pieces.
I don't understand why these particular sizes were chosen, though,
because they don't seem to add up in any sensible way without wasting
space or overlapping.
> Why the sizes of the various fs?
The original reason for root to be small and /usr to be large was, I
believe, so that the most commonly-used files could be kept on a small,
fast, and expensive, head-per-track disk, while the less-frequently used
files would be on the larger, slower, but cheaper conventional disk,
and the division was maintained even when systems put both file systems
on the same disk. As for the exact sizes chosen, I don't know.
eric
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24641
for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 04:21:24 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Sep 2 04:16:04 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24636
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 04:21:18 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15796;
Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:16:06 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199809011816.OAA15796(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm"
To: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:16:04 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys),
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my
woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover
this sort of thing in one place?
So much to learn....
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24730
for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:02:01 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Sep 2 04:56:49 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24725
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:01:55 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15872;
Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:56:51 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm"
To: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:56:49 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
> > Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var?
>
> I believe /var originated in SunOS at a time when Sun was heavily
> promoting network-mounted file systems. In order to allow /usr to be
> mounted read-only across the network from a shared server, it was
> necessary to move all the files that would need to be modified by a
> running system from their traditional locations in /usr onto a file
> system that would be writable (and probably not shared with other
> systems). The rearrangement was then widely copied by other systems,
> including 4.4BSD.
OK. Now it is beginning to make sense.
IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting
or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts
of particular reasons to even have a /var fs? For example, on my FBSD
boxes (yeah, I know new stuff and not Ancient Unixes, but I have to run
it at the office --- at home is another story), I find that I use var
mostly for temp stuff, spooling prints and mail, and little else.
The ftp user is off on another fs with regular users, where space is
not critical (since my ftp archives can vary widely, across time) and
I don't want to take up a lot of space with a mostly empty var.
That leads to the question of whether or not it is workable to put
var as a tree within the root fs? And, then, what did the earlier
systems like 32V or V7 use as the mail or print spooling areas?
I don't have much info on the earlier systems, except for bits and
pieces that I have run across. Sadly, our library here at MOO U,
has little from earlier days. Is any of this around on-line?
> > Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand
> > the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild,
> > with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it,
> > originally?
>
> It looks like this one really originated with the Seventh Edition,
> where "hp" disks were permanently partitioned as follows:
>
> partition start length
> 0 0 23 -> a
> 1 23 21 -> b
> 2 0 0 -> c
> 3 0 0 -> d
> 4 44 386 -> e
> 5 430 385 -> f
> 6 44 367 -> g
> 7 44 771 -> h
>
> (the start and length are in cylinders of 418 blocks apiece)
Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related,
or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or
code design limits?
> A generic installation, according to the manual, would put root on
> partition 0, swap on partition 1, and /usr on partition 4 or 7.
> Partitions 2 or 3 could be used to access an entire disk.
Is the 2 and 3 partition ever used, or was that just something
that came along for the ride with the hardware, and not used by
unix?
> Clearly if partition 4 was used for /usr then partition 5 could be used
> for something else, while if 7 was used it would take up the entire
> rest of the disk. I'm not sure what the motivation was for the size of
> partition 6, even though partition g now seems to be the standard one
> for /usr, but presumably the space between cylinders 411 and 430 could
> be put to use somehow.
>
> The Sixth Edition also had fixed-size partitions, but of different
> sizes than the Seventh Edition used:
>
> partition start length
> 0 0 9614 -> a
> 1 18392 65535 -> b
> 2 48018 65535 -> c
> 3 149644 20900 -> d
> 4 0 40600 -> e
> 5 41800 40600 -> f
> 6 83600 40600 -> g
> 7 125400 40600 -> h
>
> (these numbers are in blocks, not cylinders). The manual explains
> the motivation for partitioning:
>
> This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks
> and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536
> blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be
> broken up into more managable pieces.
OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due
to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?).
It is interesting that here it seems that partitions 1 and 2 were
co-addressed, or overlapping, while 4/5/6/7 were sequentially laid
out across the disk, perhaps. It would seem that 4/5/6/7 were just
simple divisions of the disk into 4 pieces. Was something like this
done to accommodate whether the drive was used a a boot drive or
a secondary drive?
> I don't understand why these particular sizes were chosen, though,
> because they don't seem to add up in any sensible way without wasting
> space or overlapping.
>
> > Why the sizes of the various fs?
>
> The original reason for root to be small and /usr to be large was, I
> believe, so that the most commonly-used files could be kept on a small,
> fast, and expensive, head-per-track disk, while the less-frequently used
> files would be on the larger, slower, but cheaper conventional disk,
> and the division was maintained even when systems put both file systems
> on the same disk. As for the exact sizes chosen, I don't know.
Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era
of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture?
> eric
Again... Thanks!
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24871
for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:46:21 +1000 (EST)
>From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Wed Sep 2 05:45:53 1998
Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24866
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:46:14 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16702; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199809011945.OAA16702(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Organization: The University of Chicago
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
[snip]
> IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting
> or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts
> of particular reasons to even have a /var fs?
There's no urgent need for it if you don't mind having it as part of
root or /usr. On some systems it's nice to have /var on a separate
partition so that large mail spools or log files that fill up the /var
partition won't also break root or /usr, but this works both ways,
because if you had allowed it to be part of a larger partition it might
not have filled up in the first place.
> That leads to the question of whether or not it is workable to put
> var as a tree within the root fs?
Lots of systems set it up as just a regular directory within the
root directory. Others (like SGIs) make it really be /usr/var
and put a symlink from /var to there.
> And, then, what did the earlier systems like 32V or V7 use as the
> mail or print spooling areas?
V7 mail keeps files in /usr/spool/mail; earlier systems did not have an
equivalent directory and delivered mail files directly to users' home
directories. UUCP in v7 spooled files to /usr/spool/uucp. The v6
manual (in the manpage for opr) refers to printer spool directories
/lib/dpr, /lib/lpr, and /lib/npr; the lpd manpage also lists /usr/lpd.
> I don't have much info on the earlier systems, except for bits and
> pieces that I have run across. Sadly, our library here at MOO U,
> has little from earlier days. Is any of this around on-line?
The v1 manual (as TIFF-format scans and OCRed PostScript), as well as
much other historical material, is available from Dennis Ritchie's web
page,
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/
The v7 manual is also at the same site but in
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/
The v6 manual can be extracted from the binary v6 distribution that you
can run on a PDP-11 emulator, though troff changed a bit between v6 and
v7 so you have to work a bit to get it to format with a modern ditroff.
> Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related,
> or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or
> code design limits?
I think they were specifically there for convenience. The smaller
disks that were also supported did not all have partitions.
> Is the 2 and 3 partition ever used, or was that just something
> that came along for the ride with the hardware, and not used by
> unix?
I imagine it would be used if you devoted an entire disk to a single
file system, or as a way of copying the entire contents of the disk
regardless of the partitioning to another device for backup.
> OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due
> to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?).
The v6 C compiler does not have long integers and the PDP-11 is a 16-bit
machine, so that's why everything was limited to 65536 blocks. If you
want *real* weirdness, check out the v1 manual, in which the seek call
had not yet been made to deal with anything over 65536 *bytes*, so seeking
on disks worked very strangely.
> Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era
> of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture?
If I'm reading the First Edition manual right, the fixed-head disk was
the DEC RF11, with 1024 256-byte blocks -- yes, 256K bytes for the
entire hard disk. Dennis Ritchie's paper "The Evolution of the Unix
Time-sharing System" refers to a 512K disk, though, so I don't know
which to believe.
eric
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24981
for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:29:54 +1000 (EST)
>From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Wed Sep 2 06:28:24 1998
Received: from mailhost2.transarc.com (mailhost2.transarc.com [158.98.14.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24976
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:29:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: from smithfield.transarc.com (smithfield.transarc.com [158.98.16.10]) by mailhost2.transarc.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id QAA01769; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:28:26 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com>
Reply-To: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980901155532.16237I-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting
> or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts
> of particular reasons to even have a /var fs?
Sure, as long as you make the root filesystem large enough, you can just
have /var be part of the root filesystem (or do like small SunOS/Slowaris
systems do, and have /var be a symbolic link to /usr/var - reasonably
safe, since SunOS and Slowaris both tend to assume that /usr is always
mounted).
> [...] And, then, what did the earlier
> systems like 32V or V7 use as the mail or print spooling areas?
Mail is dropped into /usr/spool/mail, or /usr/mail, depending on what
system you're talking about. Don't remember where printing went (I
actually don't remember if V7 even had a print-spooling system; I did a
lot of printing by doing "pr filename > /dev/lp"....
> Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related,
> or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or
> code design limits?
The partition sizes were compiled into the driver, not stored in a disk
label such as with more modern Unixes (and that was actually the case
until fairly recently - I don't think that disk labels made it into the
Berkeley code until at least the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release). If you wanted to
change a partition boundary, you had to edit some constants in the driver
and recompile your kernel (or do what I used to do a lot - use "adb -w"
to change the driver tables on-the-fly, and then try to remember to make
the same changes to the source code so you didn't get a surprise next time
you rebuilt the kernel.....).
> > This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks
> > and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536
> > blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be
> > broken up into more managable pieces.
>
> OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due
> to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?).
This was a filesystem limitation; the filesystem code could not handle
more than 64K blocks in a filesystem, probably because it was using 16 bit
unsigned integers internally.
--Pat.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02145
for pups-liszt; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:45:08 +1000 (EST)
>From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Sep 3 06:14:56 1998
Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA02122
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:44:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16])
by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21643;
Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:43:36 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost)
by athene.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id WAA04031;
Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:20:17 +0200 (CEST)
Received: (from tih@localhost)
by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14724;
Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:14:58 +0200 (CEST)
To: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
References: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> <199809011945.OAA16702(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 02 Sep 1998 22:14:56 +0200
In-Reply-To: Eric Fischer's message of "Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (CDT)"
Message-ID: <8690k2z2yn.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> writes:
> There's no urgent need for it if you don't mind having it as part of
> root or /usr. On some systems it's nice to have /var on a separate
> partition so that large mail spools or log files that fill up the
> /var partition won't also break root or /usr, [...]
Another good reason to keep /var (and, for that matter, /tmp) off the
root partition is to keep that file system mostly quiescent. You
really don't want more writing activity than is absolutely necessary
on the file system you have to have intact to even get to single user
to run 'fsck', 'restore' and friends.
On some systems, having the root file system mounted read-only during
normal operation would be a nice security improvement.
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05528
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:46:06 +1000 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Sep 4 06:45:37 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05520
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:45:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29001;
Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:45:39 +0200
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:45:37 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <199809011945.OAA16702(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980903224315.28685A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Eric Fischer wrote:
> > Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era
> > of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture?
>
> If I'm reading the First Edition manual right, the fixed-head disk was
> the DEC RF11, with 1024 256-byte blocks -- yes, 256K bytes for the
> entire hard disk. Dennis Ritchie's paper "The Evolution of the Unix
> Time-sharing System" refers to a 512K disk, though, so I don't know
> which to believe.
Are you sure that was 256-byte blocks? DEC usually talked about words when
it came to the pdp-11, and one word is 2 bytes, meaning the block is 512
bytes. Almost all DEC disks have 512 byte blocks on the pdp-11. Anybody
know any exceptions? (Is the RF-11? That disk is before my time...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05772
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 07:50:42 +1000 (EST)
>From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Fri Sep 4 07:50:11 1998
Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05767
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 07:50:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09714; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:50:11 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:50:11 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199809032150.QAA09714(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980903224315.28685A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980903224315.28685A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Organization: The University of Chicago
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> Are you sure that was 256-byte blocks? DEC usually talked about words when
> it came to the pdp-11, and one word is 2 bytes, meaning the block is 512
> bytes. Almost all DEC disks have 512 byte blocks on the pdp-11. Anybody
> know any exceptions? (Is the RF-11? That disk is before my time...)
Oh! You're right -- I looked at the line in the manual that says
The disk contains 1024 256-word blocks, numbered 0 to 1023 ...
and misread 256-word as 256-byte because it was such a strange concept
that Unix would ever be doing word-oriented I/O. That makes a lot
more sense.
eric
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06405
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:01:49 +1000 (EST)
>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Fri Sep 4 10:25:15 1998
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06400
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:01:43 +1000 (EST)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11780;
Thu, 3 Sep 1998 17:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199809040025.RAA11780(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
cc: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 01 Sep 1998 14:16:04 EDT."
<199809011816.OAA15796(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:25:15 -0700
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499(a)fudge.uchicago.edu>
from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm"
To: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:16:04 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys),
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my
woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover
this sort of thing in one place?
So much to learn....
Bob Keys
The `diskpart' utility was used in 4.4BSD to organize disk partitions.
Its manual page tries to rationalize the use of partitions. I enclose
it below in case you do not have access to it.
Kirk McKusick
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
DISKPART(8) BSD System Manager's Manual DISKPART(8)
NAME
diskpart - calculate default disk partition sizes
SYNOPSIS
diskpart [-p] [-d] [-s size] disk-type
DESCRIPTION
Diskpart is used to calculate the disk partition sizes based on the de-
fault rules used at Berkeley.
Available options and operands:
-p Tables suitable for inclusion in a device driver are pro-
duced.
-d An entry suitable for inclusion in the disk description file
/etc/disktab is generated; for example, disktab(5).
-s size The size of the disk may be limited to size with the -s op-
tion.
On disks that use bad144(8) type of bad-sector forwarding, space is nor-
mally left in the last partition on the disk for a bad sector forwarding
table, although this space is not reflected in the tables produced. The
space reserved is one track for the replicated copies of the table and
sufficient tracks to hold a pool of 126 sectors to which bad sectors are
mapped. For more information, see bad144(8). The -s option is intended
for other controllers which reserve some space at the end of the disk for
bad-sector replacements or other control areas, even if not a multiple of
cylinders.
The disk partition sizes are based on the total amount of space on the
disk as given in the table below (all values are supplied in units of
sectors). The `c' partition is, by convention, used to access the entire
physical disk. The device driver tables include the space reserved for
the bad sector forwarding table in the `c' partition; those used in the
disktab and default formats exclude reserved tracks. In normal opera-
tion, either the `g' partition is used, or the `d', `e', and `f' parti-
tions are used. The `g' and `f' partitions are variable-sized, occupying
whatever space remains after allocation of the fixed sized partitions.
If the disk is smaller than 20 Megabytes, then diskpart aborts with the
message ``disk too small, calculate by hand''.
Partition 20-60 MB 61-205 MB 206-355 MB 356+ MB
a 15884 15884 15884 15884
b 10032 33440 33440 66880
d 15884 15884 15884 15884
e unused 55936 55936 307200
h unused unused 291346 291346
If an unknown disk type is specified, diskpart will prompt for the re-
quired disk geometry information.
SEE ALSO
disktab(5), bad144(8)
BUGS
Most default partition sizes are based on historical artifacts (like the
RP06), and may result in unsatisfactory layouts.
When using the -d flag, alternate disk names are not included in the out-
put.
HISTORY
The diskpart command appeared in 4.2BSD.
4th Berkeley Distribution June 6, 1993 2
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06477
for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:18:48 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 4 11:19:01 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06472
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:18:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04168 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:19:01 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199809040119.LAA04168(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:19:01 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my
> woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover
> this sort of thing in one place?
>
> Bob Keys
As with much of early Unix, you have to Use the Source, Luke. Small disks
like the RK05s and RL02 were not typically partitioned, except to put a
swap space at one end. However, bigger disks like the RP04s were. In V6
and V7, this was done by the device driver, and the device minor number
represented the particular partition, e.g from v6 hp.c
struct {
char *nblocks;
int cyloff;
} hp_sizes[] {
9614, 0, /* cyl 0 thru 23 */
/* cyl 24 thru 43 available */
-1, 44, /* cyl 44 thru 200 */
-1, 201, /* cyl 201 thru 357 */
20900, 358, /* cyl 358 thru 407 */
/* cyl 408 thru 410 blank */
40600, 0,
40600, 100,
40600, 200,
40600, 300,
};
. . .
hpstrategy(abp)
struct buf *abp;
{
register struct buf *bp;
register char *p1, *p2;
bp = abp;
p1 = &hp_sizes[bp->b_dev.d_minor&07];
Here, each of the 8 minor device numbers selected a different set of
cylinders on the disk, and note also that some of the sets overlapped.
The V6 manual on hp(4) says:
Since the disk is so large, this allows it to be broken
up into more manageable pieces. The origin and size of the
pseudo-disks on each drive are as follows:
disk start length
0 0 9614
1 18392 65535
2 48018 65535
3 149644 20900
4 0 40600
5 41800 40600
6 83600 40600
7 125400 40600
It is unwise for all of these files to be present in one
installation, since there is overlap in addresses and
protection becomes a sticky matter.
Early versions of BSD followed this compile-time partition selection.
I'm note sure when disklabels appeared, perhaps in 4.2BSD. Kirk or
Steven might be able to tell us.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA19059
for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:16:01 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Sep 8 04:10:42 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA19054
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:15:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29122;
Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:10:45 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199809071810.OAA29122(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <199809040025.RAA11780(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> from Kirk McKusick at "Sep 3, 98 05:25:15 pm"
To: mckusick(a)mckusick.com (Kirk McKusick)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:10:42 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> The `diskpart' utility was used in 4.4BSD to organize disk partitions.
> Its manual page tries to rationalize the use of partitions. I enclose
> it below in case you do not have access to it.
>
> Kirk McKusick
Thanks!
A couple of more questions, so I get the entire picture.....since you
were there.... as the old TV show went.....
> In normal opera-
> tion, either the `g' partition is used, or the `d', `e', and `f' parti-
> tions are used. The `g' and `f' partitions are variable-sized, occupying
> whatever space remains after allocation of the fixed sized partitions.
What are d,e, and f partititions typically used for or originally designed
for, as opposed to g? I see some of the historical carryovers in how they
were arrived at, but I sense there was probably some reasoning or design
advantages one way over another, back in time, or else there would not
have been the distinctions.
> Partition 20-60 MB 61-205 MB 206-355 MB 356+ MB
> a 15884 15884 15884 15884
> b 10032 33440 33440 66880
> d 15884 15884 15884 15884
d is a small partition, so what would it have been designed to be used for?
It seems the same as root in size, so would it have been, for example, a
spare root copy?
> e unused 55936 55936 307200
e is variable in size, and the only use I have seen of it is for the /var fs,
so, what was e designed for, or typically used as?
> h unused unused 291346 291346
Likewise for h.
In my limited exposure, I have seen in 4.3BSD that g was typically used for
the /usr partition as the rest of the disk. On 4.4BSD, /var was hung on e
and g was the usr partition for the rest of the disk, on one setup, and on
another things were really confused and var was hung on h, with all different
kinds of other fs hung out here and there across the disks. The rationale
for it was, at best, confusing to the newbie.
Is it particularly important to worry about how it is laid out, or in the
Berkeley tradition, are there particular advantages or economies to laying
it out with d/e/f/ as opposed to just g? I see the fs loading table in
the 4.4 install guide, but was wondering if there was more to it than that.
> BUGS
> Most default partition sizes are based on historical artifacts (like the
> RP06), and may result in unsatisfactory layouts.
This is what I am seeing, it would appear.
Maybe the advantages of earlier layouts vs disks are becoming lost with the
modern megadisks, in many instances. Also, I tend to see things from the
point of view of a single user workstation as opposed to a big multiuser
server of some kind. Thus, my frame of refernce is a little skewed.
Thanks
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24382
for pups-liszt; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:27:21 +1000 (EST)
>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Sep 9 07:16:11 1998
Received: from knecht.Sendmail.ORG (knecht.sendmail.org [209.31.233.160])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24376
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:27:15 +1000 (EST)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178])
by knecht.Sendmail.ORG (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA14038;
Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:27:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19252;
Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:16:11 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199809082116.OAA19252(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Sep 1998 14:10:42 EDT."
<199809071810.OAA29122(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:16:11 -0700
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Most commonly, d was used for /tmp (before the days of
memory-based filesystems). The e partition was used for
/var, and f was used for /usr. The e partition was the
same size as the root filesystem so that it could be used
as a backup root filesystem.
Kirk McKusick
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03259
for pups-liszt; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:53 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 11 09:54:51 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03253
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02038 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:51 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199809102354.JAA02038(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: CSRG CDs now available
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:51 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
Kirk McKusick is back from his 3-week trip and is now shipping
the 4CD set of BSD releases from the Computer Systems Research group.
It covers all BSD versions from 1BSD to 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite2 (but not
2.11BSD, unfortunately). As well, the last disk holds the final sources
plus the SCCS files.
Details at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12474
for pups-liszt; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:23:59 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Sep 19 21:12:17 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12469
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:23:55 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01670 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:24:03 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12438
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:12:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01633 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:12:17 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199809191112.VAA01633(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Help Save 4BSD Boot Tapes!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:12:17 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Many kudos to Kirk McKusick for making the entire BSD releases from the
Computer Systems Research Group available on CD. However, many people are
going to buy the CD set so they can install 4.3BSD on their personal Vax.
Unfortunately, the 4CD set from Kirk does not contain any tape images
(bootable or otherwise) which would allow any of the 4BSDs to be installed.
Therefore, I'm asking anybody who might have old 4BSD tapes lying in a
corner, or knows someone who might have old 4BSD tapes (or has heard a
rumor about old 4BSD tapes etc.) to e-mail me with the details.
If we can unearth any old 4BSD tapes, then I am sure there will be
volunteers around who will be very happy to read the tapes, and I will
make space for them alongside the other files and tape images in the
PUPS archive.
While I'm here, I might as well say that I'm still looking for any old
PDP-11 versions of UNIX, or any applications written for early versions
of UNIX, or anything machine-readable which is generally related to
early versions of UNIX. Debbie Scherrer has just donated the Software Tools,
and both Dennis Ritchie and Norman Wilson are slowly scanning in their
paper copies of man pages for UNIX Editions 1 to 5.
Many thanks in advance for your help in preserving the history of Unix.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04014
for pups-liszt; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:14:38 +1000 (EST)
>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sat Oct 3 04:14:22 1998
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04009
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:14:31 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id OAA14142; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:14:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA24749; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:14:22 -0700
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:14:22 -0700 (PST)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CSRG CDs now available
In-Reply-To: <199809102354.JAA02038(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981002111200.28977B-100000(a)world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Kirk McKusick is back from his 3-week trip and is now shipping
> the 4CD set of BSD releases from the Computer Systems Research group.
> It covers all BSD versions from 1BSD to 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite2 (but not
> 2.11BSD, unfortunately). As well, the last disk holds the final sources
> plus the SCCS files.
>
> Details at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/
FYI, these are a *really* nice set of CDs. I was completely amazed at how
professionally they'd been put together.
Any progress on the BSD binary images for VAX?
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26021
for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:54:33 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Oct 8 08:55:04 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26016
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:54:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA22782 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:55:04 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199810072255.IAA22782(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Found 4BSD tapes at last
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:55:04 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey
Subject: Found at Last
My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes
containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have
found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi
3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from
about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape
drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am
willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that
wants to take a crack at it.
~Kirk
----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the
tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send
the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?!
Many thanks in advance for the help.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03040
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:37:56 +1000 (EST)
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Fri Oct 9 00:46:54 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03035
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:37:50 +1000 (EST)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA10516;
Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac12-67.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.67 user=rickgc
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981008074651.008fe690(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 07:46:54 -0700
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Where is Kirk located? If it is near California, I can do the work.
Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
>
>To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey
>Subject: Found at Last
>
>My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes
>containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have
>found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi
>3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from
>about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape
>drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am
>willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that
>wants to take a crack at it.
>
> ~Kirk
>
>----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
>
>Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the
>tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send
>the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?!
>
>Many thanks in advance for the help.
>
>Cheers,
> Warren
>
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03308
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 01:54:18 +1000 (EST)
>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Fri Oct 9 02:03:21 1998
Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03303
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 01:54:12 +1000 (EST)
Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA02188;
Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:54:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac15-90.calweb.com ip 207.211.87.90 user=rickgc
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981008090318.0090f520(a)pop.calweb.com>
X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren,
Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so shipping or pickup
on the week end is not a problem. Please contact Kirk and have him contact
me.
Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
(916) 568-6744 x36
At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
>
>To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey
>Subject: Found at Last
>
>My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes
>containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have
>found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi
>3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from
>about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape
>drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am
>willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that
>wants to take a crack at it.
>
> ~Kirk
>
>----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
>
>Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the
>tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send
>the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?!
>
>Many thanks in advance for the help.
>
>Cheers,
> Warren
>
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03360
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:15:10 +1000 (EST)
>From "J. Joseph Max Katz" <jkatz(a)cpio.net> Fri Oct 9 02:21:56 1998
Received: from corinne.cpio.org (corinne.cpio.org [209.218.145.10])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA03355
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:15:05 +1000 (EST)
Received: (qmail 9126 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Oct 1998 16:21:56 -0000
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "J. Joseph Max Katz" <jkatz(a)cpio.net>
X-Sender: jkatz(a)corinne.cpio.org
To: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981008090318.0090f520(a)pop.calweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.02.9810080921230.16361-100000(a)corinne.cpio.org>
X-Silly-Sender: Mr. Potatoe Head
Organization: CPIO Networks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
We may have some equipment at my workplace we can use. We're in
San Jose, he's in Berkeley, 50-70 miles in the other direction. I
need to get clearence from the boss, first, though.
-Jon
Jonathan Katz, CEO CPIO Networks, Inc.
(408) 569-7092 [ ] jkatz(a)cpio.net
http://www.cpio.net [ ] "offering OpenBSD
technical support, on-site Unix and
network security services and training."
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Rick Copeland wrote:
:Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700
:From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
:To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au,
PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
:Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
:
:Warren,
:
:Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so shipping or pickup
:on the week end is not a problem. Please contact Kirk and have him contact
:me.
:
:Rick Copeland
:Information Systems Manager
:InterMag, Inc.
:(916) 568-6744 x36
:
:
:At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
:>----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
:>
:>To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey
:>Subject: Found at Last
:>
:>My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes
:>containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have
:>found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi
:>3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from
:>about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape
:>drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am
:>willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that
:>wants to take a crack at it.
:>
:> ~Kirk
:>
:>----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
:>
:>Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the
:>tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send
:>the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?!
:>
:>Many thanks in advance for the help.
:>
:>Cheers,
:> Warren
:>
:>
:
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03449
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:50:07 +1000 (EST)
>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Fri Oct 9 02:34:48 1998
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03444
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:50:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09797;
Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199810081634.JAA09797(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
To: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 PDT."
<3.0.32.19981008090318.0090f520(a)pop.calweb.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:34:48 -0700
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Warren,
Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so
shipping or pickup on the week end is not a problem. Please
contact Kirk and have him contact me.
Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
(916) 568-6744 x36
Hi,
I am located at:
Kirk McKusick
1614 Oxford Street
Berkeley, CA 94709-1608
I could mail you the tape, but I would prefer to find a way to get it
to you that would minimize its being bounced around. Any ideas?
Kirk McKusick
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04624
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:10 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Oct 9 08:42:46 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04619
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:05 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA24785 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:46 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199810082242.IAA24785(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: 4BSD tapes to be read
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:46 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
Rick Copeland has arranged to pick the 4BSD tapes up from Kirk
and read them this or next week. Thanks to all the people who volunteered,
and hopefully copies of the tapes will be in the archive soon.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA00493
for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:51:20 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Nov 12 12:57:45 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00382
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:43:07 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04829 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:57:46 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811120257.NAA04829(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Upgrade of PUPS List server
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:57:45 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All, I have just upgraded the server where the PUPS mailing list resides, to
a newer operating system version. This email is just to test that the
MajorDomo software is still working.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA04919
for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:28:57 +1100 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
I'm still alive...
by gq696＠cleveland.Freenet.Edu
Dear TUHS members,
Sorry for my sudden disappearance. There was nothing I could do about
it. I am off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 and some time last week my machine
(blackwidow) stopped responding to ping. I have also been away from
computers in general until yesterday. If everything works out OK, I should
be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming
Monday, 17-AUG-1998.
For now I'm using my ancient Cleveland Free-Net account for mail. The
address is in my signature. It's screwed up in a number of ways, starting
with the funny way my name is written, but that's all I have for now. I
originally wanted to follow the PUPS/TUHS list via the WWW archive, but it
appears to be updated in a digest-like fashion (the normal practice for
Majordomo), so that probably won't work out well. Warren, would you please
add my temporary address to the list?
From what I can see in the WWW archive (right now goes up to 5-AUG-1998
morning), the decision as to the future of the society has already been
made. Oh well. Warren, as far as a WWW page or something describing my VAX
UNIX work goes, a little later, OK?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579
*TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696(a)cleveland.freenet.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25374
for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:38 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 12 09:43:56 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25369
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00744 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808112343.JAA00744(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Aug 12, 98 01:36:42 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Johnny Billquist:
> (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
> into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)
Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever
machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Therefore
I can't contact him to fix it.
Looks like the Unix Heritage Society page at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS
is getting some attention. Does anybody have any more hotlinks to add? I know
that there's a 3B2 group somewhere, if I had a URL I'd add it. Ditto for any
other Unix-related heritage pages.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01853
for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:58:42 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: A Decision :-)
by Greg Lehey
On Wednesday, 5 August 1998 at 9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
> name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
> now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
> chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
> maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
> licences, too.
>
> Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
> Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
> Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
> Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.
OK. Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25348
for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:11:56 +1000 (EST)
>From Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Thu Aug 6 01:11:21 1998
Received: from IAEhv.nl (root(a)iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25343
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:11:49 +1000 (EST)
Received: from 194.151.78.1 (pm3d00.IAEhv.nl [194.151.78.1])
by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26558
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST)
From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>
Message-Id: <199808051511.RAA26558(a)IAEhv.nl>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: TUHS web page: version #0
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST)
wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:
wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/
wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions,
wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to
wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?
Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated
to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware
info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information
on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this
mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run
2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often.
(Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO,
but that won't take too long anymore.)
The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org
I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site,
there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and
let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed,
so I can make the site more complete.
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
http://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26516
for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:08 +1000 (EST)
>From Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com> Thu Aug 6 07:15:52 1998
Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26511
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA12664 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com>
Message-Id: <199808052115.RAA12664(a)shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting
to study. This may be because of my history major background -- or that
I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors
of these boxes.
One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.
Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which
was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty
and 3 UUCP's). It was kind of the Universal Unix system.
Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there.
AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them.
I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since
I could mix and match features on the fly.
Both of these versions are pretty dead today. I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid
even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant
SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff). The main drawback to getting
these systems are they were was all implemented on SysIII or
SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need
a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee."
Bill
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26958
for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:36 +1000 (EST)
>From Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Thu Aug 6 09:46:20 1998
Received: from IAEhv.nl (root(a)iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26953
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:30 +1000 (EST)
Received: from 194.151.78.4 (pm3d03.IAEhv.nl [194.151.78.4])
by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA21053
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST)
From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>
Message-Id: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major
pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
pe>Edition VII.
8< snip >8
Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?
I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that
should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a
Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to
be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years.
I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth
telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very
incomplete set on the OS.
Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about
the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I
copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it
copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.)
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28239
for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:24:14 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Aug 6 15:23:54 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28234
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:24:07 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA23554;
Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:55 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA09593;
Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980806145354.H9468(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
References: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl>; from Kees Stravers on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:46:20AM +0200
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote:
> pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
> pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
> pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
> pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major
> pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
> pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
> pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
> pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
> pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
> pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
> pe>Edition VII.
>
> 8< snip >8
>
> Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?
I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver",
by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document. It's
possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25327
for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:37:25 +1000 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Aug 12 09:36:42 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25322
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:37:18 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14600;
Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:45 +0200
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <199807311344.AA23930(a)world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:
> < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the
> < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali
> < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
>
> They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s.
(Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)
Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster
pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there
are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the
VAXen.
> Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making
> all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This
> place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting.
> We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the
> code and preserved it from loss.
Amen.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25351
for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:40:09 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: The Unix Society
by allisonp＠world.std.com
How about a direct approach.
Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems. PUPs would
then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums. the key
is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best
fit forum. Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and
NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix. there are also 8bit
flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19897
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:53 +1000 (EST)
>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Wed Aug 5 06:09:41 1998
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19892
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08847
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:42 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id VAA11887; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100
Message-Id: <199808042009.VAA11887(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
References: <9808030314.AA18496(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
> Yes!
No no no! This is really bad. We should not try and sit down and say
who or what we exclude and who or what we include. There are hundreds
of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of
hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is
also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're
running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to
*us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah').
Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is
interested in older Unixoid systems be involved. The only logical
dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger
system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the
interdata port, or ?).
It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people
trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have
their own lists and are quite happy there. If people ask
inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite
pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate).
As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix
preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues.
Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually
talk about real interesting stuff! Here's a question I'd actually
like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like
systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange'
(by modern standards) machines?
--tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
code in it on something that isn't even a Vax.
And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22129
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:20 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:11:53 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22124
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18650 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042311.JAA18650(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: A Decision :-)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
licences, too.
Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.
If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up
other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists.
Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed
to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or
whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion.
I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same
time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more
specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged.
Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually
get back to DOING things :-)
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22163
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:54 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:21:28 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22158
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:51 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18748 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042321.JAA18748(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD
releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/
Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is
just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back
until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page,
but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22319
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:31 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:56:04 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22311
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18931 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042356.JAA18931(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: TUHS web page: version #0
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/
Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks,
background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX
web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?
Thanks,
Warren
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets
by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca
The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of
a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to
type. Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with
little religious zeal.
The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is
`devoted to the preservation of all information related to the
versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.' It seems pretty
clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep
historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support
Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast. (No slur
intended on those who do want to do those things.) Certainly
that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on
which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in.
It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix
systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding
them into the same society or just having several groups that
share. I would suggest that a single society (even if run as
several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the
long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name.
(Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a
duplication of USENIX.) Those who think `heritage' and
`preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point;
see the paragraph above.
All of this is likely to involve more work for someone. I don't
know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to
me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he
did the single hardest part, that of getting things started.
Those of us who think the society should do more things should
be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths
are.
In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for
the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping
my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form
will soak up most of my spare cycles. (Apologies to all that the
samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't
up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and
trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a
lot more effort than expected.) It may be possible in my new
world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian
mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the
already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment.
If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use
another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash.
I encourage others who can help out to speak up. Judging by the
amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently
(almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare
energy out there somewhere.
It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support;
preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and
their current president has some history of preservation work.
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19772
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:28 +1000 (EST)
>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Aug 5 05:24:11 1998
Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19762
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27])
by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09338;
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id NAA16324; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199808041924.NAA16324(a)hydrus.USask.Ca>
To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with
source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source
licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is
to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has
to be set for inexpensive. A second, and more important objection is
that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11
unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal,
binary only licences would be excluded.
Neil
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19830
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:32 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: The UNIX Heritage Society
by allisonp＠world.std.com
< Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate
^^^
has
Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present
tense for the future.
Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may
have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete
sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but
little of the code.
< as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact
< we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.
True.
The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially
viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.
Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS
that is not free or shareware.
Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call
archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building
upon it.
The patriot stuff, pure poof.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14295
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:33 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mon Aug 3 23:42:53 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14290
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17517
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:55 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
> >
> > Greg
>
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of
discussion, maybe that is good.
What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income.
What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like
the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would
consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe).
One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same
quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially,
it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect
them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might
consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware.
I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be
suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that
SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am
reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.
Is this reasonable?
Just thinking out loud.....
If nothing else, the discussion is good.....
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14465
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:35 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Aug 4 00:11:52 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14460
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17764;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:54 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199808031411.KAA17764(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am"
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may
> have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete
> sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but
> little of the code.
This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider.
I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred
to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little
was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would
NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help.
The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers
(only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the
passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early
boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes
that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around
by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed
through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or
gone.
Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so
that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all
about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like
the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the
unix flavors alive.
> The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially
> viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.
I would expect that our collective interests center on the former,
even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17033
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:27 +1000 (EST)
>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Aug 4 12:14:43 1998
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA17028
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA20343; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:34:48 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma020334; Tue Aug 4 10:34:31 1998
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA29944;
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
References: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you
are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and
the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy.
They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as
you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes).
Anybody more detailed information on this ?
Joerg
----
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17300
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:06 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Aug 4 14:15:23 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17295
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17823; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808040415.OAA17823(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys:
> Do any of us really want SysV?
Not me :-)
> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
> binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
> What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am
I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries.
> reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
> These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
> for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.
I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc.
Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris.
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17431
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:08 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Aug 4 15:09:47 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17426
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA16006;
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:49 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA00313;
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
References: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
>> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
>> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that
the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only
for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP
machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of
System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the
last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't
discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK
the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly
after.
>> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
>> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
>
> Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of
> discussion, maybe that is good.
>
> What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
> the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
> include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
> a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
> history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's
> income.
In principle, not a bad idea.
> What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things
> like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use
> (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others
> non-commercial maybe).
Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I
wouldn't consider it orphan.
> One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
> Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
> and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same
> quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially,
> it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
> SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort.
I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the
moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although
it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning
more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was.
> I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be
> workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices
> (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others.
> Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby
> licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would
> consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only
> a binary license of some sort would be all that we could
> collectively expect.
What would you do with a binary license.
> What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I
> am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the
> real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to
> keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively
> seem be be heading towards.
FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a
CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD
and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further
developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD
machine.
> If nothing else, the discussion is good.....
Definitely.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18632
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:43 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: The Unix Society
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
> then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.
It is, isn't it?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12785
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:30 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:45:52 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12780
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15453 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030345.NAA15453(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: What to do now with PUPS
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
> the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
> SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
> trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
> license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
> the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
> code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
> PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
>
> Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
> on more than just PDP-11s.
>
> Michael Sokolov
I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11
UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from
Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal
goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons.
Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a
mailing list, web page etc.
Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We
started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals
of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided
by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html,
which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes.
Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result
of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the
mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was
unintentional.
The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal
goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that:
+ There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license
+ For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok
+ 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed
+ System III was also dubious
+ System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed
The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky,
even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO,
for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only
licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly).
Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path
for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought
so hard for it to be included in the license.
Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes
work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit
systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope
for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would
have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's
legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference.
However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases
on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been
saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to
extend what has been achieved. Go for it!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12836
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:57 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 14:04:19 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12831
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15507 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030404.OAA15507(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
Michael writes:
> > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> > system.
>
> I would have a problem being a "Patriot".
>
> Greg
Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate,
as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact,
we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.
My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's
freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan
or fanatic.
I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising,
we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a
name into the PUPS acronym.
I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society.
For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list,
don't forget that you can switch to the digest version.
echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:42 +1000 (EST)
>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 14:00:42 1998
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12980
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA12622; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:20:46 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma012619; Mon Aug 3 12:20:28 1998
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA04106;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:43 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e
In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Mikhail,
On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.
Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already.
I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that
the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own
email again).
The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart
machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler.
Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in
that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not
stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle
of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the
UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not
being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there
at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book
around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might
find it interesting to read, too.
With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX
and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with
renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history
of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page
that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only.
Regards,
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13010
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:35 +1000 (EST)
>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Mon Aug 3 15:00:18 1998
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13005
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id BAA09014; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:00:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA11935; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980802215441.8525C-100000(a)world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
>
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that
they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what
the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on
one of their personal web pages that I read it.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14184
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:15 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: The Unix Society
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
> systems.
You still don't get it. WRONG!
Quoting from the license text:
> 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
>
> The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this
> Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems,
> including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit
> PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating
> systems:
>
> 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
> 32-bit 32V
^^^^^^^^^^^
Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12732
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:26 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: The Unix Society
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
> [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_
cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32-
bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as
West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32-
bit CPUs.
As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
on more than just PDP-11s.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12458
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:14 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:15:35 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12453
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15369 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030315.NAA15369(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
> ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
> we should go tilting at windmills.
> Greg
I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now
that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but
I'm sure it will change over time.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12485
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:35 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:16:57 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12480
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15399 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030316.NAA15399(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing.
>
> It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
> the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
> clones.
If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12572
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:33 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:26:16 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12559
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12218;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25780;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030314.AA18492(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
>> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
>> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
>> system software.
>
> No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> system.
I would have a problem being a "Patriot".
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12628
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:47 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: The Unix Society
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V.
Yes, you are right.
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
Yes!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12448
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:50 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
The Unix Society
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these
> systems.
Yes!
However, later you write:
> My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
Nee, see below.
David C. Jenner <djenner(a)halcyon.com> writes:
> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
> system software.
No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
"preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
system.
> Primordial Unix Preservation Society.
Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society?
> (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)
I agree. Hence my suggestion above.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12441
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:13 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: The Unix Society
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing.
It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
clones.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12427
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:47 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: The Unix Society
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
"retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name The Unix Society
and
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
home for them.
Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
Just my two bits.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12041
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:19 +1000 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 11:28:56 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12036
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:13 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14923;
Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:29:44 -0700
Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I think he has a point here:
Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
(and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
(like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
system software.
As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to
is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence:
Primordial Unix Preservation Society.
(I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)
Dave
Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
>
> Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
> society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
> "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
>
> > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
>
> Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
>
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name The Unix Society
>
> and
>
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>
> I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
> freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
> equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
> cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
> already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
> be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
> using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
> available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
> patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
> home for them.
>
> Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
> thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
> UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
> licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
> preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
> subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
> want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
> mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
> what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
> day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
> such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
> to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
> be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
> should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
>
> Just my two bits.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
> Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
> ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12074
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:46 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 11:43:38 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12069
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA11880;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA25458;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I think he has a point here:
>
> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12100
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:20 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 11:50:42 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12095
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13307 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
> > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
>
> That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12118
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:44 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 11:54:06 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12113
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13334; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030154.LAA13334(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Warren Toomey:
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too.
I forgot to add this sentence.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12252
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:19 +1000 (EST)
>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 12:23:17 1998
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12246
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA11852; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:19 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma011850; Mon Aug 3 10:43:02 1998
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA00392;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, grog(a)begemot.org
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e
In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > In article by Greg Lehey:
> >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ...
> >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> >>
> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> >> not to use it.
> >>
> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
> >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
> >
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
> >
> > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
>
> Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of
> the world wakes up.
Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of
writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could
take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the
feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having
a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with
email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12295
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:43 +1000 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 12:41:58 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12290
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15396;
Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:42:50 -0700
Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
CC: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to
restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
I'm not clear about what I said!?
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
> > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
>
> That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
>
> Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12306
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:16 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 12:44:55 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12301
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:11 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12075;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:15:01 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25665;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:56 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to
> restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
>
> But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
> I'm not clear about what I said!?
>
> Greg Lehey wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
>>> I think he has a point here:
>>>
>>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
>>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12348
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:00 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 12:51:22 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12343
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:50:56 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13502 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>
> Greg
After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12393
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:41 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:06:29 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12388
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12131;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:30 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25734;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
References: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
ago?
> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license,
> and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V
> systems. That's another battle, tho.
Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
we should go tilting at windmills.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12418
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:22 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Thoughts on vaxen....
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> What should one look for in a VAX?
>
> Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that
> regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping
> up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces
> would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of
> homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc.
> [...]
> So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so
> that enough of something might be cobbled together to work?
Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all
kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running
something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and
4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability
of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750
and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts.
If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers),
none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before
4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before
4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS).
If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in
a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and
Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very
rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet!
Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on
MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively
working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and
everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything
from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination!
This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner.
When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running
in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the
sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld,
BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you
can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our
hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to
port-vax(a)netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here.
Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).)
If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of
them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the
other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist
of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely
to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can
realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q-
bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and,
unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape
controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you
also need the disk and tape drives themselves.
Good luck!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09408
for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:19 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Aug 2 21:18:34 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09403
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:14 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11148 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: The Unix Society
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
I nominate the name The Unix Society
Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.
While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
mailing list!!!
My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
days.
Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10218
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:36 +1000 (EST)
>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Mon Aug 3 01:42:14 1998
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10212
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:28 +1000 (EST)
Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24282;
Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:15 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA06412; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100
Message-Id: <199808021542.QAA06412(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov),
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts on vaxen....
In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <9807311740.AA16914(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
<199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote:
> What should one look for in a VAX?
At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which
is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and
usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes. These things run 4.2
& 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the
11/780 (but slower). I'd guess that these things should be still
available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by
now. There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that
the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen...
--tim
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11665
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:10 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 09:25:53 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11658
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA11512;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:54 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA24983;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name The Unix Society
>
> Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
> Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.
>
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
> I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
> ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
> mailing list!!!
>
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
> Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
> days.
>
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as
significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've
already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if
they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the
name. I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
not to use it.
More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I
tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we
need to look a little further if we want to change the name.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11690
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:56 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 09:35:17 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11685
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12929 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name The Unix Society ...
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>
> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> not to use it.
>
> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
/The UNIX Heritage Society/i
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11772
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 09:54:52 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11767
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:07 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA11585;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:53 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA25063;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
>>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
>>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ...
>>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
>>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>>
>> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
>> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
>> not to use it.
>>
>> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
>> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
>> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
>
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
>
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of
the world wakes up.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11922
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:22 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> wrote:
> I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are
> using PDP11 computers.
My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time
soon.
> If
> other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them
> perhaps a name change would be appropriate.
Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting
development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on
PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as
"almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of
2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people
would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the
living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly
suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for
thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same
for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04638
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:27 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Sat Aug 1 08:53:31 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04633;
Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09506;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:34 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807312253.SAA09506(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am"
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
> >> up with a better name :-)
> >
> > PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine!
>
> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd
> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
>
> Greg
No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense
that Warren was not wanting to do that.
For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for
all aboard. If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine.
It was just a thought.....
I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy
behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever.
How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics
or bent feelers involved.
It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04719
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:16 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Sat Aug 1 09:30:35 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04714
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09661;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:37 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Thoughts on vaxen....
In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm"
To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> wrote:
> My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time
> soon.
For the sake of discussion.....
What should one look for in a VAX?
Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that
regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping
up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces
would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of
homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc.
Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me.
Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear.
Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so
the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the
pallet load. I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as
9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things.
So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so
that enough of something might be cobbled together to work?
I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but
am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences. I played with
a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then. I am probably
not the only one.....
As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input''
Thanks
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06196
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:02 +1000 (EST)
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sat Aug 1 21:11:13 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA06191;
Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:12:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109]
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2)
id 0z2Zai-0000tv-00; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:12:48 +0000
Message-ID: <eqRQxBARfvw1Ew98(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>In article by Greg Lehey:
>> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd
>> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
>> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
>>
>> Greg
>
>I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
>and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
>
>If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
>
Yes please. Two reasons. The first is that I have a general interest
as I guess most of us have. The second is that I am interested in
porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it
may have an app on a pdp one
>If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
>
>Cheers all,
>
> Warren
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08367
for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:34 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Thoughts...
by allisonp＠world.std.com
< Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the
< military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali
< that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s.
Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making
all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This
place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting.
We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the
code and preserved it from loss.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03203
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:37 +1000 (EST)
>From shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Sat Aug 1 02:22:23 1998
Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03197
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:30 +1000 (EST)
Received: from erols.com (207-172-243-104.s41.as4.rkv.erols.com [207.172.243.104])
by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04398;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:28:08 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7(a)erols.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400
From: shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com>
Reply-To: shsrms(a)ero_nospam_ls.com
Organization: Holistic Horizons/Waverider Research
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: msokolov(a)blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu, port-vax(a)netbsd.org
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
References: <9807311220.AA16681(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Fellow PUPS Listers,
could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings
here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if
he is an agitation program done by the psychology department?
Thanks
bob
Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote:
> > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are
> > seems to be slowly vaporizing...
>
> Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best
> military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists
> that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
> Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
> ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
--
real address is shsrms at erols dot com
The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST)
>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Sat Aug 1 02:47:07 1998
Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03317;
Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27])
by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04498;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA14549; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199807311647.KAA14549(a)hydrus.USask.Ca>
To: grog(a)lemis.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original
PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11
and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also
provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being
used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects
should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their
questions or comments about their system.
I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are
using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still
using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel
unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If
other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them
perhaps a name change would be appropriate.
Neil
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> Proper Unix Preservation Society!
Yes! I vote for this!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02735
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:09 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Thoughts...
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote:
> Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are
> seems to be slowly vaporizing...
Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best
military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists
that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02441
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:25:32 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
> and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
>
> If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
Yes!
> If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
Yes!
Personally, I think it's a bad idea to have two separate societies/lists. After
all, in many case PDP-11 UNIX and VAX UNIX are the same code compiled for
different CPUs, and these lists are not about binary-only OSes, are they?
If it's all fundamentally the same code, it should be on one list, regardless
of what CPUs people want to compile it for.
I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the
group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is
being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the
impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults.
Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve"
them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave
AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net
competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing
active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes
do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and
create a 1980s world inside!
So, with these ideas in mind, why not call ourselves TUUDS, True UNIX User and
Developer Society?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02203
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:34 +1000 (EST)
>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul 31 21:12:16 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02197
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from stacy@localhost)
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03207
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199807311112.QAA03207(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Thoughts...
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi All!
> From: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
>I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the
>group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is
>being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the
>impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults.
>Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve"
>them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave
>AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net
>competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing
>active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes
>do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and
>create a 1980s world inside!
Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are
seems to be slowly vaporizing... I spent about ten years searching
until I finally got original Digital PDP-11 here in Uzbekistan (xUSSR) !
And I succeeded only because I started working for Digital here.
Stacy.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02334
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:54 +1000 (EST)
>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Jul 31 21:54:50 1998
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02329;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16048;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03301; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100
Message-Id: <199807311154.MAA03301(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey), rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com>
<199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
> If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
I'm on both, I'm interested in stuff about both. I would have thought
that the overlap is fairly large.
--tim
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02319
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:56:18 +1000 (EST)
>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Jul 31 21:55:32 1998
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02314;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:55:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16054;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:33 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03303; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100
Message-Id: <199807311155.MAA03303(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com>
References: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
<35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* David C Jenner wrote:
> I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the
> Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society
> or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective
> that glorifies the olden Unix.
Proper Unix Preservation Society!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02386
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:42 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
by allisonp＠world.std.com
< Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing
Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any
is better than zero.
< 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U
< are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik
< that.
That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000
are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems
while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a
bit large.
Frankly, why not? Anything that competes with MS is good!
< 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI
< clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod
< written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
< "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS
It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious
license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which
were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the
license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible
to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source
code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user.
Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not
saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course
they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses.
Like all gods their feet are of clay.
Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime,
even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people
understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03871
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:54 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:27:12 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03866;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04034;
Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:14 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291727.NAA04034(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
In-Reply-To: <9807291552.AA12576(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 29, 98 11:52:57 am"
To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
> > the rush to NT and SCOish things.
>
> Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing!
No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood
boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the
beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent.
But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen
or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's
machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys
are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box
won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on.
> My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen
> of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
> this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
> which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
> friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
> by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
> VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
> why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
> to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
Clearly yours are more mainstream related.
Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one
on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things.
Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to
Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are
many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there
are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us
to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest
that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their
related unices, even the 32bitters.
> I have two strong and radical views:
>
> 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
> are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
> that.
Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis
of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly
PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to
their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past
10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x).
Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that
most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat,
no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar).
> 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX
> clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code
> written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
> "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
> which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
> latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
> licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
> only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
Well, yes and no.
I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan,
Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their
reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did
the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something
like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance.
As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever
box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with
a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big
dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks.
But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code,
nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss
of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32
bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO.
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
With all due respect.
R.D. Keys
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03980
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:13 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:57:22 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03968;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:04 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04109;
Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:25 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291757.NAA04109(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts (what have we started?)
In-Reply-To: <199807291631.AA16185(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul 29, 98 12:31:06 pm"
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:22 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any
> is better than zero.
Well said, but perhaps we need to frame that with something like,
``all will win, even the least....''
> < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U
> < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik
> < that.
>
> That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000
> are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems
> while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a
> bit large.
Can anyone refresh my memory of what machines specifically were listed
in the V7 and 32V and 2/3/4BSD docs? I would like to get that clear,
for reference purposes. Also, what specific machines were ported out
of these main sources by the odd vendors. The majority was pdp11ish,
but about V7 time the 68000 and Z8000 and other oddities pop up.
> < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI
> < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod
> < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
> < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS
>
> It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious
> license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which
> were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the
> license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible
> to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source
> code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user.
> Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not
> saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course
> they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses.
I would agree on the necessity. Back in '88 I went shopping for an office
machine, and could find nothing under around 25 kilobucks. I opted out
for a peanuts budget machine (PS/2 model 80 with AIX) at around 10K bucks
and the silly thing is still whirring away as my remote tape dumper.
Alas, it is a much maligned PC, but it functions nontheless, and IS a
real unix. Alas, these days, its steam is a little underpowered trying
to scrape the web, so it idles in the background. Technically, it is
a 32 bit abandoned unix, and for hypotheticals, it ought to be something
workable in a BUPS sort of archive, with proper Big Blue nodding. The
same thing should occur for the RT. It would probably be a nightmare
of paperwork between SCO and IBM and us, tho.....
> Like all gods their feet are of clay.
The gods were hacking away fine.... alas the beanyheads upstairs had
their feet stuck, if I am reading my history correctly.
> Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime,
> even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people
> understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed.
The goal is to save it if possible, BEFORE it becomes vaporware, for
purely hobby/historical purposes, with the big player's graces and
consents.
If we don't dream a little and oil some squeeky wheels, it will never
get done.....
> Allison
RDK
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14668
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:18:07 +1000 (EST)
>From "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> Thu Jul 30 16:02:39 1998
Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14663;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:17:49 +1000 (EST)
Message-Id: <199807300606.XAA11564(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org>
From: "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>,
"Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: <bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:02:39 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA14664
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm glad there are people and codebases that compete with Microsoft -- and I work for Microsoft. It keeps us on our toes. :-) I run NT 4.0 and Linux 2.0.30 side-by-side at home, on the selfsame network -- and all on Intel hardware. I am on this mailing list because I am gaining a PDP 11/34 as a new resident in my home, which will be networked together with the Intel hardware (so I don't have to run downstairs all the time -- the PDP is too large for my computer room upstairs). Why? Call it a sense of history....
Why shouldn't UNIX run on everything? The beauty of the UNIX idea -- which has been cloned and transported and transliterated and transmogrified a myriad times a myriad times -- is that it expresses a rich metaphor for computation, which allows us to make use of these metal monsters. I have the greatest respect for "true" UNIX and its parents and godparents. I also have a lot of respect for Linus Torvalds and the incredible piece of work he birthed -- a true UNIX version that makes excellent use of the PC architecture.
The PC architecture has commoditized significant computing power in a manner that Digital could never have done (or at least, never did), and placed that into the hands of many people who would be otherwise financially barred from playing this game. IMHO it's specious to demonize a particular machine architecture and declare that UNIXes running on it are somehow illegitimate.
Cheers -- Ian King
NOTE: this is strictly my personal ramblings, and does not in any way represent the official position of the Microsoft Corporation.
----------
> From: User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
> Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 10:27 AM
>
> > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
> > > the rush to NT and SCOish things.
> >
> > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing!
>
> No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood
> boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the
> beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent.
> But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen
> or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's
> machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys
> are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box
> won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on.
>
> > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen
> > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
> > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
> > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
> > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
> > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
> > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
> > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
> > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
>
> Clearly yours are more mainstream related.
>
> Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one
> on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things.
>
> Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to
> Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are
> many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there
> are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us
> to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest
> that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their
> related unices, even the 32bitters.
>
> > I have two strong and radical views:
> >
> > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
> > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
> > that.
>
> Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis
> of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly
> PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to
> their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past
> 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x).
> Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that
> most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat,
> no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar).
>
> > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX
> > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code
> > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
> > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
> > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
> > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
> > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
> > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
>
> Well, yes and no.
>
> I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan,
> Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their
> reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did
> the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something
> like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance.
> As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever
> box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with
> a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big
> dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks.
>
> But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code,
> nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss
> of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32
> bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO.
>
> > Sincerely,
> > Michael Sokolov
>
> With all due respect.
>
> R.D. Keys
> rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00214
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:22:06 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jul 31 11:20:35 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00201;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:21:49 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08798; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:36 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:35 +1000 (EST)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd
> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
>
> Greg
I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00743
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:22 +1000 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Jul 31 13:24:43 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00738;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:15 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip44.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.244])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07370;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:49 -0700
Message-ID: <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:43 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
References: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the
Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society
or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective
that glorifies the olden Unix.
Almost everything has been cross-posted up to this point,
and I get two copies anyway!
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Greg Lehey:
> > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd
> > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
> > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
> >
> > Greg
>
> I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
> and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
>
> If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
>
> If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
>
> Cheers all,
>
> Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01084
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:32:13 +1000 (EST)
>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul 31 15:29:46 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01078
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:30:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from stacy@localhost)
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01933
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Let'em be one!
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I also vote for one list.
Stacy.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01162
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:58 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jul 31 15:54:00 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01157
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09629 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:01 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807310554.PAA09629(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Let'em be one!
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:00 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Stacy Minkin at "Jul 31, 98 10:29:46 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Stacy Minkin:
>
> I also vote for one list [about old UNIX].
> Stacy.
Looks like most people would like a common list, so I have merged the
two lists. The PUPS list is now for Prehistoric UNIX :-) I'll keep the
PUPS web page about PDP-11 stuff for now, though.
The bups@minnie list is gone, and all mail for the list should
now go to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au.
What next?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02057
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:08:38 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
> the rush to NT and SCOish things.
Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing!
My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen
of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
I have two strong and radical views:
0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
that.
1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX
clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code
written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
"free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03595
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:31:20 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 9 months
- 1
- 0
None
by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca
A postscript to my note on the old manuyals (typed into the
editor but not written out before I sent the mail!):
A note on distributing this stuff: I asked Dennis about it before
I started my project, and he thought there should be no real
problem making the text generally available, but that it would
be appropriate for the official repository to be at Bell Labs
(now a once-again-visible subsidiary of Lucent Technologies).
That seems pretty sensible to me. I doubt there's a problem
putting them in the PUPS archive, but it would be politic to
check with Dennis first.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01345
for pups-liszt; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:27 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 29 13:55:36 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01340
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:23 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05056 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807290355.NAA05056(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS: status report
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi all,
Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society.
Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run
of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so
we can stay informed of the progress.
A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation
society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11
UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project.
If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing
to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying:
subscribe bups
BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
up with a better name :-)
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03282
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:39 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 01:03:47 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03271;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03577;
Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:49 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291503.LAA03577(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
In-Reply-To: <199807290355.NAA05056(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 29, 98 01:55:36 pm"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Hi all,
> Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society.
> Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run
> of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so
> we can stay informed of the progress.
This will be great when it happens. Kudos to Kirk.....and all the unsung
heroes along the path to Nirvana.
> A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation
> society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11
> UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project.
> If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing
> to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying:
>
> subscribe bups
>
> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
> up with a better name :-)
PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine!
I will jump in the hotseat and own up to the heat. My idea was very simple.
Mainly, I was thinking that there are beginning to surface from the bilges
of surplus, a fair number of aging old-time unix toys. Not all of them
are PDP-11ish flavor. For instance, there are sometimes found some of the
ancient Radio Shack Model 16 things with an odd flavor of Xenix on them.
There are maybe some old vaxen going wanting. There are odd bilgewater
sloshers like my old IBM RT that once did ply the waters of the great BSD
(of the 4.3 style flavor). Also, there are older x86 toys that use to
run the very lowendian V7ish, Xenixish, whateverish flavors. From the
purely hobby and historical perspective, I find it rather wasteful to
let such things just vaporize. It seems we have the PDP11 world, then
there is a big black hole until the modern SCOish and Freebieish things.
It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
the rush to NT and SCOish things. Thus, there is a need to maybe fill
that hole with something like the PUPS, but for 32bitish toys, and all
the non-PDP-11 toys.
One thing that PUPS has going, is a good working basis with all the
unixy world, the big players, the historical saints, etc. So, it was
logical to perceive that such a working framework might be expanded
slightly to include not just 32V, but all the odd successors, down to
where SCO claims rightly its territory on the SysV part of the tree.
IF that framework is a BUPS offshoot, so-be-it. But, I still think that
both PUPS and the new BUPS share much common cammaraderie and playground.
Alas, I am not yet of sufficient rank to be called but a lowly journeyman,
in the unixy world. I have run it in earnest for some 10 years, played
some with it on a PDP-11, so long ago, that it is mostly forgotten, and
still keep a set of 8 inch Xenix floppers around, just in case that mystical
Model 16B drops by, again. Thus, there is not a lot I can do. But, I do toss
out the idea, would like to see where it goes. Mebbie some heavyweight
gurus would like to run with it some.....
Let us roll it around a bit, and see where the currents takes us.
The 32BitBiggieUPS should not be forgotten. I think it can only be good
for all to make it play.....
Sincerely
R.D. Keys
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
> Cheers all,
> Warren
Cheers all hands aboard PUPS, BUPS, .... burp!, .... whatever.....
RDK
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03488
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:52:41 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 10 months
- 1
- 0
None
by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca
I hadn't expected Warren to forward my note directly to the list,
so perhaps I'd better fill in some of the missing content.
What I'm trying to do with the old manuals is a mix of different
sorts of historic preservation: it's interesting to be able to
produce something reasonably close to the original in appearance,
including style differences, but I am also interested just in
making the content accessible. That means being able to render
the manual pages into troff -man on modern UNIX systems, or into
nroff /man/man0/naa in the V5 root image, and roff and whatnot;
but also into HTML because that's the right way to make text
available on the web (Postscript is not text), and certainly into
other forms I haven't thought of yet.
To describe it all in utterly pragmatic terms, I want to be able
to put all the old manuals up on the web somewhere in readable
text form (not just page images or Postscript); and to produce
manual data of authentic content and reasonably authentic style
for use with the V5 binary distribution; and to be able to to
print clear reference copies for myself, so I can pack my old
photocopies away in a safe place; and to amuse myself by running
style and diction on the different editions; and I want to be
able to do that even if I don't have a copy of roff or the
appropriate age-authentic macro package.
So the idea is to mark up the text in a sufficiently high-level
form that it can be rendered into any of the forms above (including
the ones I haven't thought of) without undo work. I thought briefly
about using the (V7-era) -man macros as the high-level language,
and in fact much of the simple language I ended up inventing are
obviously drawn from -man (e.g. there are constructs that are
exactly .TH, .SH, and .SS spelled differently); but I wanted to
avoid the temptation just to toss in more and more troff-specific
syntax and semantics whenever some hard-to-represent construct
popped up. (There are too many low-level constructs in the resulting
language as it is.) I also thought about using some existing
document metalanguage like XML or YODL, but those I looked at
were far more ornate than seemed appropriate, and far too free-form;
I don't mind carrying a few medium-sized awk programs around to
render the text, but I object to having to port a language-processing
subsystem larger than the V5 kernel just so I can render V5's manual
pages. (Never mind how large awk and troff are these days.)
There's a name I should also name here: my collaborator in California
to whom the earlier message alludes is Jennine Townsend, who has
photocopies of my photocopies from a sort of earlier collaboration.
More on this in a few days; as I said to Warren, I hope to get
a coherent sample of all this work up on the web shortly so people
can see what I'm doing in more detail and comment, but I am in
the midst of deciding whether to change jobs (it is a coincidence
that the likely job change would put me nearer the OCR setup I've
been using, but it is convenient), and in getting back into the
swing of things at my present job after being out for two weeks
to recover from having corrective maintenance on my sinuses, so
it may not happen till the weekend.
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25486
for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:33 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 10 months
- 1
- 0
Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog
by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu
Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote:
> > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog.
>
> Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they
> were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus
> controllers.
I don't know if it's their only business, but they still sell (and
hopefully make) these controllers. One of their guys was trying to sell me
one just a few months ago. Of course, their prices are way off-base
compared to the used market.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.cwru.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19102
for pups-liszt; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:30 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Jul 12 12:59:31 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19097
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01524; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:32 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807120259.MAA01524(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS
To: jim(a)sco.COM (Jim Sullivan)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:31 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980710080445.00691374(a)mammoth.sco.com> from Jim Sullivan at "Jul 10, 98 11:12:48 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Jim Sullivan:
> Do you know if anyone from PUPS is going to SCO Forum/Usenix in
> August in Santa Cruz?
>
> If so, we'd love to connect, if just to say Hi!
>
> Also, SCO has a quarterly Developer's newsletter, called CoreDump.
> Would anyone within PUPS be interested in submitting an article
> for the next edition? 500 words outlining the goals of PUPS
> and how to join/participate? Seems like a nice way to quietly
> promote your efforts.
>
> What do you think?
Hi Jim, I'll pass this email on to the mailing list. I'll probably take you
up on the article. Thanks!
I'm in Australia & not likely to get to Santa Cruz in any hurry. :-(
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21845
for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:50 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Jul 13 13:47:55 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21838
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07263; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807130347.NAA07263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Recovering old UNIX manuals
To: norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <WAA00038(a)lion.cs.yorku.ca> from "norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca" at "Jul 12, 98 10:20:04 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at
converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into
machine-readable format.
Warren
norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca writes:
> The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is
> all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the
> text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself
> to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front,
> right now there is:
> - a small collection of tools to pre-process what comes out
> of the OCR into something that is easy to mark up.
> Specifically there are a couple of little filters that
> fix up the non-ASCII characters emitted by the Mac, and
> that glue hyphenated words back together; and a rather
> bigger awk script that does some of the easy grunt work
> like spotting and marking up entry titles and section headers.
> - a description of the markup language (written in itself,
> of course).
> - a program (also in awk, and surprisingly long) to render
> the markup language into approximately V7 -man. (I have
> actually done all the work so far on the MicroVAX in my
> basement, which is one of the last remaining V10 systems
> in the world, and it won't surprise me to learn that the
> renderer has accidentally picked up some V10-specific
> assumptions.)
> - a collection of advice on style and known OCR botches
> and whatnot for those who mark up and proof the manuals
> as they go through the pipe. (At the moment `those' means
> me and my collaborator in California.)
>
> The most important missing tools and writings are something to render
> into HTML, and something that explains a little more generally just
> what it is I am doing (and how it differs from what Dennis did, and
> for that matter from just trying to regenerate the original troff
> input) and describes the tools and so on. My current hope is to
> get those done in odd moments this week; once I have a decent
> approximation of each, I want to put copies of all the documents
> and all the tools and a few sample pages from 5e up on the web, so
> people have something to look at and I can get comments from a wider
> group. (Obviously I'll drop a note to the PUPS mailing list when
> things are up there.)
>
> While I'm writing the HTML renderer and the missing document this
> week, my colleague in California has already begun an independent
> proofreading pass over the stuff I've marked up, which is a damn
> good thing because I can't see the errors any more (and she has
> already spotted some).
>
> The other tools I know are missing are
> - some sort of structure to allow the old pre-typesetter manuals
> to be rendered in a good approximation of their original form.
> At the moment I expect this will just be a troff macro package
> with the syntax of V7 -man, so I can just use the existing renderer,
> though I can see some font issues looming that may cause force the
> renderer to change (perhaps in a way general enough that there will
> still be only one renderer).
> - something to allow V6-era -man (or /usr/man/man0/naa, to name it
> properly) macros to work too; the obvious cheap way out is something
> that translates V7 -man to V6, presumably with the knowledge that what
> it is translating came out of my markto7man renderer (which restricts
> the language quite a bit, so the job is a lot simpler). I'm not sure
> how important this is--the obvious short-term goal is to be able to
> have a man command in the V5 environment, and since the macros probably
> aren't in the existing distribution, it's fair game to bring in a copy
> of the V7 ones--but it seems worth having in the long run if only for
> fun.
>
> I'd originally thought to write more of the tools before doing so
> much markup, but I'm glad I didn't--the markup language mutated more
> than I expected as experience showed where it was wrong, and it made
> life simpler to have only one renderer to update. I think it is
> pretty much stable now, and in any case I am champing at the bit to
> be able to display things in HTML.
>
> A final complication in all this: it is all but certain that I'll
> be resigning from York this week, effective in about a month, to
> jump back to a position at the University of Toronto (running
> computers for the Canadian Institute for Theoretical Astrophysics).
> This is not a surprise to anyone concerned (including the folks here
> at York--the real reason for the move is that the eleven-mile commute
> to York is just too long for me), but it will certainly have both
> short- and long-term effects on the time I can spend on the manuals.
> The long-term effects may not be what you think, though: the scanner
> and OCR setup I've been using is located at CITA, so once I've settled
> in there (and especially once I get the tools sorted out well enough
> that it is effectively a pipeline), it should be pretty convenient
> to spend the odd hour scanning in a handful of pages.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23544
for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:16 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mon Jul 13 23:44:42 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23539
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12765;
Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:44 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807131344.JAA12765(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Recovering old UNIX manuals
In-Reply-To: <199807130347.NAA07263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 13, 98 01:47:55 pm"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:42 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> All,
> I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at
> converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into
> machine-readable format.
>
> Warren
>
> norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca writes:
> > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is
> > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the
> > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself
> > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front,
> > right now there is:
On a similar bent, I have been working on roffing Dennis' V1 manuals,
using the earliest roff I could still find some sort of source to.
It is one that was popular in the early CP/M days, that also found
its way into dos and unix. How true to the original it is, I dunno,
but it works. They are about 2/3 done, maybe, but my time to get them
done is not as much as I would like.
What should I do with them once they are done? I was thinking of just
sending the source/output back to Dennis, but if it is OK to put them in
in the PUPS archives, I can bounce them to Warren.
Thanks to Dennis Ritchie for making them available.
Bob Keys
p.s. You know, with all this html thingie, whatever happened to just
a real roff/nroff/troff output? It is only ascii. Why html?
Just curious as to why/wherefore/etc.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25462
for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:59:08 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 10 months
- 1
- 0
Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog
by norman＠cs.yorku.ca
As Steven Schultz says, Dilog used to make a lot of DEC-compatible
peripheral gear. The old company has been gone for years, but there
is a descendant in Switzerland; see http://www.dilog.ch for details
and contacts. There are still people there who can dig up info about
old Dilog Qbus interfaces; I have discovered this empirically.
Perhaps they know about the Vixen box; certainly they can likely
find out about the Dilog disk controller.
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04264
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:34:31 +1000 (EST)
26 years, 10 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On May 10, 9:49, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I
believe
> > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a
few
> > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> > appearant.
>
> It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long
> divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7
> yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to
> FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the
alternative
> is about two pages of code).
> The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
> explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
> and no FP code was needed or used for that.
That bears out what I disovered by accident yesterday -- looking at a 7th
Edition UK source distribution for 11/23's and other small machines. The
READ_ME file lists the programs that have possible floating point problems,
or which might be too big using emulation. I can't remember the details,
but the list had a few surprises.
Most of the C programs have very little FP, and that is mostly due to a
small number of library routines that include FP ops, but one or two
programs are exceptional.
For example, 'factor' has a lot of FP at the beginning, a chunk in the
middle, and a large subroutine near the end, which uses FP to compute
square roots using Newton's method. factor is written in assembler, not C,
and has much more FP than other things I looked at, but several other
programs use a little.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23210
for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:05 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon May 11 08:58:57 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23205
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02896 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23188
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:37:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02806 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805102258.IAA02806(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
We've had a regular intake of new subscribers to the PUPS mailing list, so
I thought I'd say Welcome to all the newcomers. There are now 90 people on
the list, and the quantity of messages is increasing daily.
The mailing list is also available in a digest form, which is distributed
twice a week. If you would rather be on the digest list, send mail to
majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the lines in the body of the mail:
unsubscribe pups
subscribe pups-digest
For more information about old UNIX, see the PUPS web pages at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS, and the FAQ in particular.
The most recent news is that both Bob Supnik and the Begemot team have
released new versions of their PDP-11 emulators. A further bug in Bob's
emulator was found by Steven Schultz, so we might see a patch to the
emulator coming out soon.
The PUPS volunteers have been hard at work burning and mailing out the
first batch of CDs containing the PUPS Archive, which is now about 520Megs
in size. We also have about 30 people with authorised access into the
on-line PUPS Archive.
Dion at SCO has promised another batch of new UNIX licenses, which I
should receive in the next few days. When I do, I'll post the details here.
That's all for now. Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23314
for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:25 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon May 11 09:41:19 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23309
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:21 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02987; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805102341.JAA02987(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
To: jkatz(a)darpanet.net (J. Joseph Max Katz)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980510164539.6267A-100000(a)corinne.cpio.org> from "J. Joseph Max Katz" at "May 10, 98 04:47:31 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by J. Joseph Max Katz:
> Hi,
>
> What's the latest on the 4BSD re-release that Marshal Kirk McKusick
> is doing?
I've sent the list of people interested to Kirk. He's still a bit vague,
but is looking at selling a 4-CD set of all the 4BSD releases for a
price around US$100. That's a ballpark number, and will depend on how many
people want the set: the more the cheaper it will be.
I haven't heard back from him for a week or so. Should I ask him what
he is planning?
Please, none of this is for public consumption just yet.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26253
for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:53 +1000 (EST)
>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Tue May 12 05:01:14 1998
Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26248
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: from exceng1.ako.dec.com (exceng1.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.50])
by mail11.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0e) with ESMTP id PAA07349
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by exceng1.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
id <KRDX27L5>; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:19 -0400
Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920671F48E(a)excmso.mso.dec.com>
From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: vi bug found
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:14 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
For those who want vi to work before V2.3c is released, the problem is
in the divide instruction. Look for:
dst = src / src2;
if ((dst >= 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {
and change the second line to:
if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {
(Thanks to Steve Schultz for finding this.)
The magtape bootstrap is also broken, that will be fixed in V2.3c as
well.
/Bob Supnik
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27617
for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:37 +1000 (EST)
>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Tue May 12 10:55:24 1998
Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27612
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:30 +1000 (EST)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:55:24 -0700
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Just got my license from SCO...
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Message-ID: <13354936165.17.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm number AU-31.
-------
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27849
for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:14 +1000 (EST)
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue May 12 12:21:12 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27844
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0d.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.109]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id WAA16927; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199805120221.WAA16927(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:12 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <19980508194615.O12200(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
> floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
> floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by
> my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
> Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.
I agree: tar doesn't *use* floating point.
However, from what I can determine the floating point ops in tar are
not some weird way of moving data around, nor is floating point
being used to do long arithmetic as some have suggested.
Compare the first few tar floating point ops with a dummy program
consisting of a single call to scanf:
tar, 106 floating point ops:
0: SETD ;170011
20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732
etc.
scanf, 106 floating point ops:
000000: SETD ;170011
002764: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
003014: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
004346: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004350: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004420: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004422: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004560: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004562: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004750: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
004754: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
006410: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
006414: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732
So it would appear that whatever floating point there is in tar comes
from library routines which have been linked in, but which tar does
not use.
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06408
for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:40:06 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 14 10:59:28 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06400
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:39:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08059; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More licenses from SCO
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are:
Craig Bevans, Brian Chase, Efton Collins, Peter Collinson,
David Galloway, Jay Jaeger, Dieter Muller, Daniel Seagraves,
Jason Stevens, Warren Toomey, Christopher Vance, Norman Wilson,
Thomas Zenker.
As always, if you are interested in obtaining access to the on-line PUPS
Archive, or a copy of it on some form of media (CD, tape etc.), then
please mail your request to pupsarchive(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. You will
receive an automated response with more details.
The PUPS Volunteers have sent out about 6 CDs so far, and one tape(?).
Cheers all,
Warren
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVpBm0bObQUa2Z5FAQFe7gP9ERhvXqncCx1U5uyzSBo6n5TYm34XCrmi
gg0KYOHhG1vNdFuXHviXQa3u9fd/8J1eNlw7e7aKAkNbfjb2jilO0XA8yU+b6D1O
LsOwFuoCvgAFpdERIIeIFEmI+/fFEDsSN07/4TOazLkZgyBeWjJ45MYeew1UJZB5
r3lL++opjiA=
=4xMV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06436
for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:48 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 14 11:03:12 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06429
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08094; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:13 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805140103.LAA08094(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More licenses from SCO
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:12 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 14, 98 10:59:28 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Warren Toomey:
> I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are:
I forgot to say: Dion gave me license number AU-0, at the behest of
the members of the PUPS mailing list. Thanks all!!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09954
for pups-liszt; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:54:02 +1000 (EST)
>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Mon May 18 19:54:06 1998
Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09949
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:53:55 +1000 (EST)
Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38])
by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19904;
Mon, 18 May 1998 11:51:48 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
id LAA13628; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:07 +0200
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Exploited by spammers.
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980518114414.13620B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi all!
I want to tell you all how sorry I am for spamming occuring from this site.
Due to several reasons it was possible to exploit the lintilla service
machines.
We hope we have put an end to it now (it was not an easy task since it
involved *cringe* beurocracy).
If anybody receives spams from lintilla.df.lth.se or lintilla2.df.lth.se
from now on please let me know! It should not happen but....
The lintilla services machines does not approve to spam and we try to
fight back as hard as we are able.
Internet used to be a happy place where people helped eachother and where
life was simple and good. Sometimes I long for those days now gone. =(
Today it seems that greed and abuse is the rule...
Again, sorry for the inconvenience that spamming from this site has caused!
Sincerely yours:
Lars Persson, the Lintilla services.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12548
for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:27 +1000 (EST)
>From "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Tue May 19 12:50:09 1998
Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12542
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:18 +1000 (EST)
Message-Id: <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org>
From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org>
To: "PDP Unix Preservation" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:09 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id NAA12544
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....
I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in advance for any experience you can share!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?
Ian King <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15443
for pups-liszt; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:49 +1000 (EST)
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed May 20 05:33:00 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA15438
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109]
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2)
id 0ybs9n-0004Zb-00; Tue, 19 May 1998 20:34:39 +0100
Message-ID: <5Im5JEAs5dY1Ewa$(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:33:00 +0100
To: Ian King <iking(a)killthewabbit.org>
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Question regarding tape drive interface
In-Reply-To: <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org>, Ian King
<iking(a)killthewabbit.org> writes
>OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....
>
>I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some*
>flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to
>interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the
>Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required?
>And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in
>advance for any experience you can share!
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----------------------------------
>24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?
>Ian King <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there.
Wotcher,
You'll need a UNIBUS TS11 card, I don't know the number for this but it
should be relatively easy to get hold of. BSD2 certainly supports this.
Cheers
Robin
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03403
for pups-liszt; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri May 29 13:12:02 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03398
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:11:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01694 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805290312.NAA01694(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More UNIX Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I've just received licenses from SCO for Don Cruickshank and Hartmut Brandt.
Congrats, you two!
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18054
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:55:01 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Jun 18 12:54:57 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18046
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04029; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199806180254.MAA04029(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More UNIX Licenses
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <35887E29.828B78E2(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Jun 17, 98 07:40:41 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by David C. Jenner:
> Warren,
>
> I haven't received any PUPS mailing list since this message.
> (May 28th). Are things that slow?
It's been quiet! However, I'll send in a test message to wake everybody up :-)
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24887
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:50 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Jul 6 13:58:23 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24882
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07988 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix:
Bruce Robertson, Erick Delios, Kelwin Wylie, Kirsten McIntyre, Matthew Crosby
That brings the numbering scheme up to AU-50, but in fact there are 52
SCO source licenses for ancient Unix.
The mailing list has been pretty quiet. Hope you're all well. The only
news I have is that Norman Wilson is still slowly scanning in the manuals
from 2nd to 5th Edition. He now has most (all?) of 5th edition scanned in.
I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD
set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be
around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down.
Software Tools
--------------
I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
I was one of the people who created the Software
Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
be even better ;-)
I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24990
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:43 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Jul 6 14:18:28 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24985
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA07541;
Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:29 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:28 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 01:58:23PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Software Tools
> --------------
>
> I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
> I was one of the people who created the Software
> Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
> mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
> want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
>
> She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
> Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
> Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
> have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
> 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
> RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
> of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
> send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
> be even better ;-)
>
> I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
Registrant:
Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM)
11950 Anderson Valley Way
P.O. Box 939
Boonville, CA 95415
Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM
Administrative Contact:
Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc(a)NETCETERA.COM
707-895-2691
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27259
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:41 +1000 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jul 7 05:15:30 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27254
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:34 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20935;
Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:15:35 -0700
Message-ID: <35A12252.EFEFE2B0(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:15:30 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
CC: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I think having these in the archives would be great. I used the
Software Tools extensively back in the late 70's and early 80's.
I wish I could read the tapes in, but I'm still working on a tape
drive for an 11/73. (see separate mail.)
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > Software Tools
> > --------------
> >
> > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
> > I was one of the people who created the Software
> > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
> > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
> > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
> >
> > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
> > Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
> > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
> > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
> > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
> > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
> > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
> > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
> > be even better ;-)
> >
> > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
>
> Registrant:
> Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM)
> 11950 Anderson Valley Way
> P.O. Box 939
> Boonville, CA 95415
>
> Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM
>
> Administrative Contact:
> Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc(a)NETCETERA.COM
> 707-895-2691
>
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers
> finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27294
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:31:07 +1000 (EST)
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jul 7 05:30:18 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27289
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:30:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21123;
Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:30:23 -0700
Message-ID: <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:30:18 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape
References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir
things up a bit.
I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which
has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I
spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to
any computer.
What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost"
bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel
machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is
cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where
the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface
on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US.
So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel
machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling
block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages
for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US.
There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple
C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD,
SCO UnixWare, etc.
If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate
your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of
these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most
likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape.
Thanks,
Dave
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28013
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:27 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jul 7 10:13:04 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28008
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:21 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA10688;
Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:05 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980707094304.N7792(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:04 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au,
PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Which PC UNIX for old SCSI tape drive? (was: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape)
References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:30:18PM -0700
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 12:30:18 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir
> things up a bit.
>
> I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which
> has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I
> spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to
> any computer.
>
> What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost"
> bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel
> machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is
> cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where
> the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface
> on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US.
>
> So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel
> machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling
> block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages
> for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US.
> There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple
> C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD,
> SCO UnixWare, etc.
Sure, that's the obvious way to go.
> If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate
> your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of
> these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most
> likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape.
I think you'll find that they all support SCSI. I'd recommend FreeBSD
because I'm involved with it and because it's the closest to 2.11BSD.
Next, I'd recommend Linux, because you have the sources. You could
have trouble with UnixWare, in which case there wouldn't be much you
could do about it. If you do have any problems with FreeBSD, let me
know and I'll see what I can do.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00657
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:57 +1000 (EST)
>From Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk> Tue Jul 7 16:20:53 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00649
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:50 +1000 (EST)
Received: from (XPUPPY) [193.237.190.229]
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2)
id 0ytRAe-00009v-00; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:24:09 +0000
Received: by XPUPPY with Microsoft Mail
id <01BDA978.2E5F7760@XPUPPY>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:23:47 +0100
Message-ID: <01BDA978.2E5F7760@XPUPPY>
From: Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk>
To: "'PDP Unix Preservation'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: DEC in the UK and Dilog
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:20:53 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA00650
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market.
In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - however we are not talking laptop here :)
The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81.
I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC part numbers.
Any help or suggestions gratefully received.
Kevin Murrell
Birmingham, England.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02684
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:44 +1000 (EST)
>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jul 8 01:44:14 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02679
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00178;
Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807071544.LAA00178(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Newbie Alert: Which is a ``best'' pdp-11 to look for?????
In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 6, 98 01:58:23 pm"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:14 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> All,
> The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix:
Neato.... I am beginning to think it might be a fun thing to do.
As the newbie aboard, what pdp-11, vax, or other dec machine would be
one to shoot for. Some are largish beasts, but for the Joe Homehobby
type that wants to run one in the basement, what would be a reasonable
combination of parts or units (or a whole machine) to look for?
Occasionally machines float up from the bilges here in central NC, USA,
and usually they wind up dumpster fodder. Rather than see that happen,
if I had a choice, what should I be looking for? For convenience, if
there was something that would fit in half a relay rack or so, that
might be nice. Also, if it could run with standard cartridge tapes
(DC300/450/600) sized things, that would be advantageous, since I have
a number of those things and nil reel to reel drives.
> I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD
> set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be
> around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down.
That would be something worthwhile to have, just for posterity.
> Software Tools
> --------------
......
> I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
I just checked our folks.... nil reel-to-reel drives anymore..... shucks.
One of the technical high schools has the only one left here in NC.
Bob Keys
p.s. Are there any USA NC folks on the list, or just me?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04090
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:13 +1000 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jul 8 10:14:47 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04085
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05047;
Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199807080014.RAA05047(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk>
Linebreaks please? 72-80 columns would be nice ;)
> Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog.
Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they
were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus
controllers.
> Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s.
> Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market.
I never heard of Dilog making entire systems. You'd typically buy
the box from DEC (but without any controllers or as few as you could
order a system from DEC with) and then stuff it with Emulex or Dilog
adaptors.
> In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen.
Sounds like an OEM somewhere was buying bare systems from DEC and
placing Dilog cards in them.
> This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card.
Indeed it is.
> Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product.
> Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 -
>however we are not talking laptop here :)
What are the dimensions? It likely is a BA-23 box. "Transportable"
would be appropriate - unless you've a *huge* (and sturdy) lap ;)
> The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached.
> The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81.
> I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC
> part numbers.
It was/is common for controller cards to call anything over ~150mb
an 'ra81' just to give the software a diskid it knew about.
On the various Dilog cards you should find (either on the spine/handles
or the card's front/back) a name. Something like "DQ696" (a disk
controller) or "DQ132" (tape controller). If you can find any numbers
at all let us know and we can probably id them for you.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04178
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:52:45 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
Re: mkfs on an RL02
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
Hi, Warren.
On May 10, 18:26, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th
> > Edition system disk on an RL02...
> > How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way,
> > what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file
> > for the number of blocks and number of inodes?
>
> The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
> the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.
I should have thought of that! Steven told me the same thing last night.
> Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
> parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:
>
> rl
> tm
> root rl 0
> swap rl 0
> swplo 18000
> nswap 2480
That looks the same as mine.
> In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.
I had a look in the superblock on a couple of bootable RL02s, and found
18,000.
> Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
> set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.
I knew about using digits for the blocks instead of a proto file, but I
thought it might be safer to specify the number for the inodes. I tried to
figure it out from the results of icheck but I'm much happier with your
suggestion.
I'll let you know how I get on. The reason to do this today is two-fold:
One of my packs is getting flaky, so I want to make a good copy, with
a clean install (most of mine have lots of localised junk), and
our department has an Open Day on Wednesday, and I've been coerced
into running a display of old machines. The 11T23 is the easiest PDP
for me to move there.
Thanks for the help!
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21625
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:41 +1000 (EST)
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sun May 10 21:48:23 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21620
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:33 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA29830;
Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:24 +0200
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:23 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980510134657.29637B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
appearant.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22385
for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:30:15 +1000 (EST)
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon May 11 02:49:44 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22380
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:30:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00593
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199805101649.JAA00593(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
> that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
> FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> appearant.
It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long
divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 yet)
because it is much much less code to convert the operands to FP, do
the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative is
about two pages of code). Different CPUs handle a fault during a
double word push to the stack differently, this was a real difficult
problem to track down and fix. If during the FP instruction
"movfi fr0,-(sp)" the stackpointer becomes invalid some PDP-11 CPUs
handle the fault differently. See 2.11BSD update #150 for the details.
The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
and no FP code was needed or used for that.
FP instructions would be clustered together where the libc.a routines
were loaded. The 'ldiv' and 'lrem' routines would have several FP
instructions close to each other but the rest of the program would
have very few. A program such as 'adb' would have a few FP instructions
in the routines that display the FP registers. Oh - there's a bug
dating back to V7 in adb. The FP registers for a traced/running
process do not display correctly (using adb on a core file works fine).
Fixed in 2.11 (see update #405) ;-)
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22952
for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:42:17 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
Re: mkfs on an RL02
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...
and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
exists?"
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21159
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:55:53 +1000 (EST)
>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sun May 10 18:17:06 1998
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21151
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:55:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id EAA12462; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:17:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA29779; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700 (PST)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980510011221.27113A-100000(a)world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
> whether my results hold up. They do.
Is it possible that you're mistakenly disassembling embedded data as if it
were code? And perhaps that those data items contain arrangements of byte
values which translate to FP instructions?
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21206
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:05:09 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun May 10 18:26:23 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21201
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:05:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02363; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805100826.SAA02363(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9805092143.ZM1440(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:43:26 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Pete Turnbull:
> I'm looking for some advice...
>
> For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
> system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk
> has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has
> 256K bytes RAM.
>
> How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what
> magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
> number of blocks and number of inodes?
The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.
Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:
rl
tm
root rl 0
swap rl 0
swplo 18000
nswap 2480
In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.
The mkfs manual says:
If the prototype file cannot be opened and its name con-
sists of a string of digits, mkfs builds a file system
with a single empty directory on it. The size of the file
system is the value of proto interpreted as a decimal num-
ber. The number of i-nodes is calculated as a function of
the filsystem size. The boot program is left uninitial-
ized.
Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.
Hope this helps,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21220
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:29 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun May 10 18:27:43 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21215
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02382; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805100827.SAA02382(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9805092146.ZM1447(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:46:36 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Pete Turnbull:
> On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...
>
> and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
> were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
> exists?"
You'd have to disassemble the kernel. Alternatively, consult the
size of the free block list on the disk's image.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21366
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:41:33 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
mkfs on an RL02
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
I'm looking for some advice...
For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk
has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has
256K bytes RAM.
How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what
magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
number of blocks and number of inodes?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19878
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:24:03 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
Re: First edition Unix manuals
by merlyn＠Geeks.ORG
> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>>> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
>>>> an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
>>>> set of sources for clean copy.
>>>
>>> Great idea. Keep us posted.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
>> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
>> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
>> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
>> html is not so good.
>>
> It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
> could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
> source first of course!)
Or use programs written already to do that, like RosettaMan (at least
I still call it that, the author changed its name). Here's a blurb
from its announcement.
:: PolyglotMan (nee RosettaMan) is a filter for UNIX manual pages. It
:: takes as input man pages for a variety of UNIX flavors and produces as
:: output a variety of file formats. Currently PolyglotMan accepts man
:: pages from the following flavors of UNIX: Hewlett-Packard HP-UX, AT&T
:: System V, SunOS, Sun Solaris, OSF/1, DEC Ultrix, SGI IRIX, Linux, SCO,
:: FreeBSD; and produces output for the following formats: printable
:: ASCII only (stripping page headers and footers), section and
:: subsection headers only, TkMan, [tn]roff, RTF, SGML (soon--I finally
:: found a DTD), HTML, MIME, LaTeX, LaTeX 2e, Perl 5's pod. Previously
:: <I>PolyglotMan</I> required pages to be formatted by nroff prior to
:: its processing; with version 3.0, it prefers [tn]roff source and
:: usually can produce results that are better yet.
::
:: PolyglotMan improves upon other man page filters in several ways: (1) its
:: analysis recognizes the structural pieces of man pages, enabling high
:: quality output, (2) its modular structure permits easy augmentation of
:: output formats, (3) it accepts man pages formatted with the variant
:: macros of many different flavors of UNIX, and (4) it doesn't require
:: modification of or cooperation with any other program.
:: The home location for PolyglotMan is ftp.cs.berkeley.edu:
:: /ucb/people/phelps/tcltk/rman.tar.Z (this is a softlink to the latest,
:: numbered version). If you discover a bug and you obtained PolyglotMan
:: at some other site, first grab it from this one to see if the problem
:: has been fixed.
This is only for man pages, but probably could take the papers in ms
format and give a rough translation, or hack up polyglotman some to do
ms as well..
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19189
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:48 +1000 (EST)
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sun May 10 02:04:55 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19184
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:42 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0f.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.111]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id MAA00978 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199805091604.MAA00978(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Visible Front End-advice?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'd like to write a visible front end for Bob's emulator, but I'm not
sure how to go about doing it. What I'd like is another window that
shows the state of the emulator--PC, SP, MMR etc.--in real time.
Any suggestions/ideas?
TIA
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19863
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:21:19 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
by m＠mbsks.franken.de
Mahlzeit
The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll
look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD
mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD?
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09524
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:41:02 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 09:04:16 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09519
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:40:56 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA02711;
Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
References: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>; from Tim Bradshaw on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:01:21PM +0100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> versions of these at:
>
> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to
view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
page.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09691
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:46 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 10:08:49 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09686
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:40 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02921;
Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:50 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507093849.H396(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:49 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: m(a)mbsks.franken.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
References: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 06:43:56AM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 6:43:56 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Matthias,
> Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working
> with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email.
Hey, I thought you were in freezing Tasmania :-)
> Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator
>
> Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code
> for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu
> directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o.
>
> With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here:
>
> total 16
> -rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help
> -rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf
> -rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom
> -rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot
>
> All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf
> configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made
> a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is:
>
>
> libdir = .
> ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
> end
> ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
> 0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12
> end
> ctrl kl
> 017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002
> 017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003
> end
> ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
> end
> ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
> end
> ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
> end
>
> Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root.
> The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does.
>
> Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory,
> do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require
> any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few
> times. You will see:
In fact, you can use any port from 10000 to 10003. They map to
/dev/console and /dev/ttyl1 through /dev/ttyl3 (though for some reason
/etc/ttys doesn't contain entries for the latter two).
>> telnet localhost 10002
> Trying 127.0.0.1...
> Connected to localhost.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> -----
> <---- Hit Return once or twice here
> : xp(0,0,0)unix
> Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
>
> 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
> root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
>
> attaching lo0
>
> phys mem = 2097152
> avail mem = 1668352
> user mem = 307200
>
> January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system
>
> lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
> rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
> tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
> xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
> cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached
> cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR.
> cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR.
> cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR.
> erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
> #
>
> That's it!!
Well, no, at this point you're in single-user mode. To continue,
enter ^D:
# Fast boot ... skipping disk checks
checking quotas: done.
Assuming NETWORKING system ...
add host 192.109.197.211: gateway 127.1
add net default: gateway freebie.lemis.com
starting system logger
preserving editor files
clearing /tmp
standard daemons: update cron accounting.
starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer.
starting local daemons:.
Wed May 6 10:45:41 CST 1998
May 6 10:45:42 pdp11 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1
2.11 BSD UNIX (pdp11.lemis.com) (console)
login:
I've forgotten what the standard password on root is; I fear it has
*not* been removed. It could be 'begemot' or 'begemot1'. To change
it, you will need to rebuild passwd, which will not work otherwise.
Do that in /usr/src/bin/passwd. If you have trouble, I can send you a
passwd binary.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09714
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:29 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 10:16:40 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09709
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:24 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02935;
Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:41 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507094640.I396(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:40 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Matthias Bruestle <m(a)mbsks.franken.de>, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
References: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <m0yXC0k-000HqiC(a)mbsks.franken.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC(a)mbsks.franken.de>; from Matthias Bruestle on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:45:58PM +0200
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 23:45:58 +0200, Matthias Bruestle wrote:
> Mahlzeit
Mahlzeit (*r�lps*)
> The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll
> look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD
> mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD?
Yes, I think so. The access to the machine goes via the tunnel
driver, and that would need to be completed for Linux. The authors
don't use Linux, so they haven't done the work. They don't use BSD/OS
much any more, so if you are going to install one, FreeBSD is the
obvious choice, especially considering the price differential.
Of course, any old UNIX user should be using BSD anyway, especially if
you want to emulate older BSDs :-)
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09778
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:35 +1000 (EST)
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Thu May 7 10:45:41 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09773
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:28 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-02.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.66]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id UAA04653 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:44 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
As you know, my first approach was to simple-mindedly examine every
word of a given program's disk image to come up with an estimate of
the number of floating point operations used by the program.
I would like to thank those who pointed out the shortcoming of this
approach and offered valuable advice on how to achieve my aim of
accurate counts. Based on these comments, I decided to create a
full fledged disassembler for the PDP-11.
I have tested my program and believe it produces an exact count of
all floating point operations.
In case you're interested in how my initial estimates compare with
the new, precise counts, I list those data below as well.
New Approach.
uv7 bin directory
Programs using 10 or more floating point ops.
graph 674
awk 657
spline 389
sa 300
prof 260
iostat 243
t450 222
t300 222
t300s 212
vplot 187
tek 185
adb 128
units 118
random 116
xsend 106
xget 106
tsort 106
tar 106
refer 106
quot 106
nroff 88
factor 88
ac 88
primes 78
poke6 62
lex 51
roff 32
as 18
Old Approach.
uv7 bin directory
Programs using 100 or more floating point ops.
awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ed 321
mail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
cu 282
diff 277
pr 275
poke6 275
sed 267
find 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
as 152
od 151
look 149
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
dd 141
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
cb 134
mv 134
comm 133
newgrp 133
dcheck 132
factor 132
rmdir 125
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
df 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
nice 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
cat 103
tail 103
sleep 101
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09917
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:32 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 11:37:24 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09912
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA21487;
Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10926
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:33:08 +1000 (EST)
>From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Thu May 7 18:55:29 1998
Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10921
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:32:59 +1000 (EST)
Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost)
by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1)
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
id 0yXMSf-0002FS-00; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk>
X-Sender: afrb2(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on
a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling
say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you
don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be
on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful,
Alan Bain
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10996
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:00:04 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 19:23:06 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10988
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:59:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA14397;
Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:07 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507185306.I12200(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:06 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
References: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk>; from Alan Bain on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:55:29AM +0100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:55:29 +0100, Alan Bain wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>>> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
>>> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
>>> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
>>> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>>
>> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>>
> According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on
> a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling
> say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you
> don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be
> on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful,
The Seventh Edition manuals are available in a number of places,
including of course the PUPS archive, but dmr has also put them on the
web at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/index.html.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11609
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:50 +1000 (EST)
>From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu May 7 23:05:02 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11603
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02117;
Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 7, 98 08:34:16 am"
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> > versions of these at:
> >
> > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
>
> Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to
> view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
> page.
>
> Greg
He put up postscript versions, too.
I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
set of sources for clean copy.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13158
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:43 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri May 8 09:02:36 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13153
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA16737;
Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
References: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from Robert D. Keys on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:05:02AM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>>> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
>>> versions of these at:
>>>
>>> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
>>
>> Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to
>> view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
>> page.
>>
>> Greg
>
> He put up postscript versions, too.
I don't see them at
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html. Where are they?
> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
> set of sources for clean copy.
Great idea. Keep us posted.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14100
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:44 +1000 (EST)
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri May 8 14:14:03 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14094
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:36 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id AAA28438; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:04 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:03 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-293
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
--Message-Boundary-293
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
whether my results hold up. They do.
According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here
are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as
well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete
disassembled code for tar, let me know.
[root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
read 16128 bytes
prog string is 16128 bytes
0: SETD ;170011
20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and
because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged
by the number of floating point ops contained in tar).
The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating
point:
~_filbuf
~_innum
~atof
~cvt
~ecvt
~fcvt
~gcvt
~isatty
~main
~mktemp
The addresses of these routines, as listed in tar's symbol
table--see attached file symlisttar.txt--correspond to those of the
disassembled floating point ops in tar.
I've learned a lot while responding to the criticisms offered by you
and others on this list. Thank you.
Ed
--Message-Boundary-293
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Text from file 'TAR3.TXT'
[root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
read 16128 bytes
prog string is 16128 bytes
0: SETD ;170011
20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732
26676: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762
26710: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
26714: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732
26720: CFCC ;170000
26724: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040
26730: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762
26742: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101
26744: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001
26746: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27006: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
27012: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732
27016: CFCC ;170000
27022: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040
27026: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762
27040: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101
27042: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001
27044: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27304: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762
27314: LDF F0,#40200 ;172427 040200
27320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752
27324: LDF F0,#40640 ;172427 040640
27330: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742
27344: LDF F0,177742(R5) ;172465 177742
27350: MULF F0,F0 ;171000
27352: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742
27366: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752
27372: MULF F0,177742(R5) ;171065 177742
27376: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752
27422: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
27426: DIVF F0,177752(R5) ;174465 177752
27434: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
27440: MULF F0,177752(R5) ;171065 177752
27444: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27462: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
27466: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
27500: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27512: NEGF F0 ;170700
27514: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27520: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
32720: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
32724: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
32764: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
32770: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
33060: CLRF F0 ;170400
33062: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004
33066: CFCC ;170000
33100: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33104: NEGF F0 ;170700
33106: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33120: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33124: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
33136: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33146: CLRF F0 ;170400
33150: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762
33154: CFCC ;170000
33160: CLRF F0 ;170400
33162: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004
33166: CFCC ;170000
33202: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
33206: DIVF F0,#41040 ;174427 041040
33212: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
33224: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752
33230: ADDF F0,43662 ;172067 010426
33234: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040
33240: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400
33252: CLRF F0 ;170400
33254: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762
33260: CFCC ;170000
33276: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752
33302: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33310: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33314: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040
33320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752
33324: CMPF F0,#40200 ;173427 040200
33330: CFCC ;170000
33414: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33420: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040
33424: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33436: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33442: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
33454: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33460: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752
33464: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400
33666: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33672: STEXP F0,R0 ;175000
33700: LDEXP F0,R0 ;176400
33702: CFCC ;170000
33710: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007756
33716: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007750
33722: NEGF F0 ;170700
34112: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
34116: MODF F0,#40200 ;171427 040200
34122: STF F1,@14(R5) ;174175 000014
[root@oskar uv7]#
--Message-Boundary-293
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Text from file 'symlisttar.txt'
~main~usage~dorep~endtape=003004
~getdir~passtap=003414
~putfile=003566
~doxtrac=005656
~dotable=006776
~putempt=007126
~longt~pmode~select~checkdi=007506
~onintr~onquit~onhup~onterm~tomodes=010132
~checksu=010344
~checkw~respons=010560
~checkup=010750
~done~prefix~getwdir=011302
~lookup~bsrch~cmp~readtap=012704
~writeta=013350
~backtap=013644
~flushta=014044
~copy~freopen=014146
~fseek~rewind~fread~fwrite~system~fopen~scanf~fscanf~sscanf~_doscan=016056
~_innum~_instr~_getccl=021242
~fprintf=021376
~printf~sprintf=021532
~ungetc~_filbuf=022002
~gcvt~_strout=024570
~_flsbuf=025130
~fflush~_cleanu=025702
~fclose~_endope=026072
~create~_findio=026516
~atof~atoi~ctime~localti=027716
~sunday~gmtime~asctime=031220
~dysize~ct_numb=031560
~malloc~free~realloc=032422
~ecvt~fcvt~cvt~isatty~mktemp~stty~gtty~strcat~strcmp~strcpy
--Message-Boundary-293--
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14844
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:45 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri May 8 20:16:15 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14839
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:38 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA18750;
Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:16 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980508194615.O12200(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:15 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 0:14:03 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
Content-Description: Mail message body
>> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
> whether my results hold up. They do.
>
> According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here
> are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as
> well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete
> disassembled code for tar, let me know.
>
> [root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
> file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
> read 16128 bytes
> prog string is 16128 bytes
> 0: SETD ;170011
> 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
> 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
> 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
> 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
> 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
> 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
> 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
> 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
> 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
> 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
> 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
>
> I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and
> because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged
> by the number of floating point ops contained in tar).
I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by
my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.
For the fun of it, I took the source of tar from the Seventh Edition
(/usr/src/cmd/tar/tar.c) and compiled it on 2.11BSD. I had some minor
compilation problems due to different directory structures, which I
solved by #ifdefing out the following code:
#if 0
for (j=0; j < DIRSIZ; j++)
*cp2++ = dbuf.d_name[j];
*cp2 = '\0';
close(infile);
putfile(buf, cp);
infile = open(".", 0);
i++;
lseek(infile, (long) (sizeof(dbuf) * i), 0);
#endif
I think we can agree that they don't contain FP code. Here are some
results:
[23] root--> cc -n -s -O tar.c -S
[24] root--> grep -i ldf tar.s
[25] root--> grep -i mul tar.s
> The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating
> point:
>
>> _filbuf
>> _innum
>> atof
>> cvt
>> ecvt
>> fcvt
>> gcvt
>> isatty
>> main
>> mktemp
atof, cvt, ecvt, fcvt and gcvt are conversion routines which use
floating point, so I can agree that they would contain FP code which,
however, would not be used. isatty is a library routine which is
simple enough to quote:
/*
* Returns 1 iff file is a tty
*/
#include <sgtty.h>
isatty(f)
{
struct sgttyb ttyb;
if (gtty(f, &ttyb) < 0)
return(0);
return(1);
}
Evidently there's no FP code there.
It's fun to go looking for things like this. But never trust
anything, especially not your own judgement, until you have a couple
of different ways to prove it. You have the sources there; go ahead
and check them out.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15293
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:26 +1000 (EST)
>From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Fri May 8 23:28:40 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15288
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03767;
Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 8, 98 08:32:36 am"
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
> > set of sources for clean copy.
>
> Great idea. Keep us posted.
>
> Greg
I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
html is not so good.
Bob
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15447
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:48:43 +1000 (EST)
>From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Sat May 9 00:08:38 1998
Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15435
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:47:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost)
by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1)
id 0yXnpG-00028L-00; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk>
X-Sender: afrb2(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk
To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> > > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
> > > set of sources for clean copy.
> >
> > Great idea. Keep us posted.
> >
> > Greg
>
> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
> html is not so good.
>
It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
source first of course!)
Alan Bain
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15594
for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:14:37 +1000 (EST)
>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Sat May 9 00:35:45 1998
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15587
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:13:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from tfb@localhost)
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20682;
Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST)
Message-Id: <199805081435.PAA20682(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com>
<199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* Robert D Keys wrote:
> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
> html is not so good.
I could probably manufacture HTML from roff reasonably rapidly,
assuming the originals are vaguely clean. I used to do this for a
living at one piunt (:).
--tim
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16019
for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:10 +1000 (EST)
>From Jason Stevens <Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com> Sat May 9 03:25:16 1998
Received: from gw.aexp.com (gw.aexp.com [205.138.230.66])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16014
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:03 +1000 (EST)
Received: by gw.aexp.com; id KAA05009; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:24:50 -0700 (MST)
Received: from mailhub1.ec.aexp.com(148.171.243.131) by gw.aexp.com via gwmail (v99)
id xmajh7726; Fri, 8 May 98 10:24:10 -0700
X400-Received: by mta AmexPHXMTA in /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed;
08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700
X400-Received: by /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed;
08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700
X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; 0D35C35533FFC066-AmexPHXMTA]
Content-Identifier: 0D35C35533FFC066
Content-Return: Allowed
X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 )
Conversion: Allowed
Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text
Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited
Alternate-Recipient: Allowed
X400-Originator: Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com
X400-Recipients: non-disclosure;
Message-Id:
<0D35C35533FFC066*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/o=trs/ou=HUB1/ou=AMEX/s=Stevens/g=Jason/@MHS>
Date: 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700
From: Jason Stevens <Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Return requested)
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Could it be possible that all the floating point calls are part of the crt.0
initialization libs?! They may be in there as part of a initialization
routeen to detect a fp, and use it if it's there, although I really doubt tar
would really need an fp call at all.. It sounds like some kind of generic
startup thing.. Unfortunatly I don't have any source to anything at the
moment... If anyone wants to dive check the startup libs... Oh well until
then, I'm just waiting for SCO to send me my no.. :)
TTYL!
Jason
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19024
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:52:46 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
by m＠mbsks.franken.de
Mahlzeit
According to Greg Lehey:
> Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to
> answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am.
Thanks. :)
> > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
> > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
> First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the
The compiler which compiled the emulator is gcc. Log time ago I compiled
someones emulator with gcc 2.5.8 and it did only work without any
optimization.
> nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look
> at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are:
Fine, I will try it this night or tomorrow.
Thanks
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09143
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:53 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 7 06:43:56 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09138
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03625; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST)
Cc: m(a)mbsks.franken.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 6, 98 04:38:21 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Matthias,
Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working
with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email.
Warren
Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator
Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code
for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu
directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o.
With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here:
total 16
-rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help
-rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf
-rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom
-rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot
All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf
configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made
a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is:
libdir = .
ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end
ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12
end
ctrl kl
017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002
017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003
end
ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end
ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end
ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
end
Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root.
The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does.
Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory,
do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require
any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few
times. You will see:
% telnet localhost 10002
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
-----
<---- Hit Return once or twice here
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
attaching lo0
phys mem = 2097152
avail mem = 1668352
user mem = 307200
January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system
lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached
cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR.
cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR.
cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
#
That's it!!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09164
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:14 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 7 06:49:24 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09159
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:11 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03699; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805062049.GAA03699(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Tim Bradshaw:
> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> versions of these at:
>
> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
>
> --tim
Thanks Tim!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09393
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:24:42 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
by m＠mbsks.franken.de
Mahlzeit
I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.
When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
at the end:
./checksys unix
overlay 6 is empty and there are non-empty overlays following it.
System will occupy 156960 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists).
end {0052310} nbuf {0012014} buf {0033654}
nproc {0012002} proc {0042454} ntext {0012004}
text {0051350} nfile {0012010} file {0047370}
ninode {0012006} inode {0012076} ncallout {0012012}
callout {0024562} ucb_clist {0012020} nclist {0012016}
ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0012074} quotdesc {0000000}
namecache {0025242} _iosize {0010030}
**** SYSTEM IS NOT BOOTABLE. ****
*** Exit 1
then I get very often Bus Errors:
# ./config SONJA
./config: 1041 Bus error - core dumped
Copying standard files to ../SONJA.
./config: 1051 Bus error - core dumped
./config: 1052 Bus error - core dumped
./config: ../SONJA/ioconf.c: cannot create
./config: ../SONJA/param.c: cannot create
Setting configuration options for SONJA.
c./config: ../SONJA/loop.h: cannot create
^C# ^C
# mkdir
Bus error - core dumped
# mkdir X
Bus error - core dumped
#
I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
optimization.
Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
[1] The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
filesystem.
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06684
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:59 +1000 (EST)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed May 6 16:38:21 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06678
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:55 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02895; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
To: m(a)mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC(a)mbsks.franken.de> from Matthias Bruestle at "May 6, 98 08:24:49 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Matthias Bruestle:
> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.
[that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license]
> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
> [problems]
>
> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator
> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
>
> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
> filesystem.
Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed
the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here
are some general purpose suggestions from me.
+ Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption,
or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis?
+ Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot?
+ The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11
emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and
installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs.
Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able
to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11
built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work.
I'm off for a short break, but I'll be back Monday. Best of luck with it.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06826
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:53 +1000 (EST)
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed May 6 17:07:10 1998
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06818
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA00723;
Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:11 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980506163710.A329(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:10 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, Matthias Bruestle <m(a)mbsks.franken.de>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
References: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC(a)mbsks.franken.de> <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:38:21PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:38:21 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Matthias Bruestle:
>> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.
>
> [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license]
>
>> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
>> [problems]
>>
>> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
>> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator
>> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
>>
>> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
>> filesystem.
>
> Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed
> the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here
> are some general purpose suggestions from me.
>
>> Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption,
> or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis?
>
>> Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot?
>
>> The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11
> emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and
> installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs.
>
> Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able
> to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11
> built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work.
Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to
answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am.
One point:
> Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
> the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the
address space of a PDP-11. Secondly, I'd guess it's the emulator. I
don't think many people have tried 2.11BSD on the Supnik emulator.
I'm using the Begemot emulator (Emulators/P11-2.3 in the archive). I
get:
[5] root--> cd /usr/src/sys/GRANDPA/
[6] root--> ./checksys unix
System will occupy 295600 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists).
end {0122636} nbuf {0013562} buf {0053542}
nproc {0013550} proc {0077060} ntext {0013552}
text {0121416} nfile {0013556} file {0115726}
ninode {0013554} inode {0013646} ncallout {0013560}
callout {0044274} ucb_clist {0013566} nclist {0013564}
ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0013644} quotdesc {0000000}
namecache {0053150} _iosize {0000000}
[7] root-->
I won't pretend that the documentation of the interpreter is ideal,
nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look
at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 11477 May 6 16:18 README-emu
-rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 1746 May 6 16:18 p11conf
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root lemis 315 May 6 16:19 run_211
README-emu is a brief (and hurried) description of what I did to get
the emulator working, p11conf is my current configuration, and run_211
is the command file I run to actually start the emulator. Note that
what you get when you run the emulator is just the diagnostic console;
to actually use the machine, you need to telnet to ports 10000 to
10003. Anybody interested in so doing can telnet to pdp11.lemis.com
and log in as guest, password "Today only". Don't break anything,
please--I haven't checked security too much.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08014
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:54 +1000 (EST)
>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Thu May 7 01:01:21 1998
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08009
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:45 +1000 (EST)
Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04718
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA08913; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100
Message-Id: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
versions of these at:
http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
--tim
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08241
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:08 +1000 (EST)
>From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu May 7 02:12:37 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08236
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00456;
Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199805061612.MAA00456(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Early unix on simulators --- partial newbie success ---yeah!
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm"
To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I managed to get the Sim23b pdp11 emulator running on the v5 unix.
It is hard to believe a 25K kernel....(:+}}..... so much for code
bloat over the years.
My goal is to try to bring it up on a KSR35 hooked up to a headless
pc (386 board in a closet box) on the dos emulator, or whatever would
be the minimal required to get it going.
Can anyone suggest ways to reach that goal? I am still having no
luck with the Ersatz 2.0 emulator on dos, because I can't seem to
get the incantations right. I get to the @ prompt, but after
entering unix, it just sits for a bit, the HD spins, and after a
few seconds it is back at the @ prompt. There is still some magick
mystical juju required (albeit I am the dummy here....(:+\\.....)
I could port a stripped Linux 0.98 kernel maybe, to get it up,
and try that, but I was hoping the dos emulator would run with it.
Any suggestions and pointers are appreciated.
Thanks, and kudos to all the PUPS crew and Dennis Ritchie for
resurrecting the old v5 image. This kindof makes computing
fun, for a change.....
Now, where did I stash that KSR35.....
Bob Keys.....
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08328
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:15:26 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
Installation of 2.11BSD
by m＠mbsks.franken.de
Mahlzeit
My hardware:
Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot
from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports.
MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS,
MT, MU, SY, DU.
It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown
size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my
controller.)
Kernel:
To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are
these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console
unter RT-11.
Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM?
Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES?
Installation:
I think there are three possible ways of installing it:
1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with
rtkerm.
The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work?
2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the
swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the
usr-data (kermit? write simple program?).
This sould also install the disklabel.
3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data
(kermit? write simple program?).
The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator.
What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better
idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?)
Thanks
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06631
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:59:52 +1000 (EST)
27 years
- 1
- 0
Slightly offtopic...
by Jorgen Pehrson
Hi,
I have a little problem installing 2.11BSD on my PDP11/83. I have a TK50
tape with the distribution and a TK50 drive from a uvaxII. The controller
board is a M7546 that comes from another vax. The original tape drive in
this PDP is an TK25 drive which I have disconnected. How should the
TK50controller be strapped? The TK25 answered at 17772520. Should the TK50
be there as well? (I haven't got a clue howthe QBus works... I know it's
some kind of cascading thing though so I guess it matters in what order
the boards are placed in the machine)
Thanks for any help!
--
Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3)
jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3)
http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16303
for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:00:04 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 18 09:50:25 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16294
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:59:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06940;
Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804172350.QAA06940(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Slightly offtopic...
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Jorgen -
Hello.
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
> I have a little problem installing 2.11BSD on my PDP11/83. I have a TK50
> tape with the distribution and a TK50 drive from a uvaxII. The controller
> board is a M7546 that comes from another vax. The original tape drive in
> this PDP is an TK25 drive which I have disconnected. How should the
> TK50controller be strapped? The TK25 answered at 17772520. Should the TK50
That is the correct address for the first TS controller in the system.
Despite the name ("TK25") the TK25 is a TS device and not a TMSCP
device.
> be there as well? (I haven't got a clue howthe QBus works... I know it's
No. The TK50 should be at the first TMSCP address which is 172150.
You do not have to (indeed, you can not) set the vector on the M7546
because TMSCP devices are 'programmable' - the kernel will assign
a unique vector to the controller at boot time.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16404
for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:38:22 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 18 10:38:02 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16399
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:38:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07251;
Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804180038.RAA07251(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: ERROR in previous mail item (TMSCP)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hello -
I looked at the wrong line in the dtab file earlier.
The primary TMSCP address (where the TQK50 adaptor should go) is
174500. I accidentally gave the address of the first MSCP ('ra')
earlier.
So if you have both a TK50 and a TK25 the boards should be set like
this
TK25 172520
TK50 174500
Sorry for any confusion I caused.
Steven
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. W
<it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one wi
KXT-11 was the t-11 cpu, duart (2 dl lines), PIOs ram and prom on one dual
width card. It was designed as a bus master.
KXT-11+ was also T-11, quad width with peripherals on board but could work
as both bus master and bus slave.
KXJ-11 was the later versionusing the J-11 cpu.
< Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way
<ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set
<do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I exp
<could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes
<DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in
<BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have a
<disks.
The were intended to replace lsi-11/03 and /2 cpus for embedded operation.
They with proper memory would run Rt-11 and could be used for a self
development system. At one time I had one in a BA11-va (showbox) with
a RXV21 and MXV11 and it was a very good 32k RT-11 system.
I also reassembled a MDS-11A a Vt100 with a PDP-11 qbus inside as a
desktop development system for PDP-11.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08043
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:59:16 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> Thu Apr 16 18:58:50 1998
Received: from spektr.ludvika.se (root(a)spektr.ludvika.se [194.18.168.68])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08037
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:59:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]])
by spektr.ludvika.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA09430
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:51 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:50 +0200 (CEST)
From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11?
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi,
What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83?
What I have:
PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation.
A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet.
And I have a spare DEQNA laying about.
What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the
MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there.
Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system?
What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing
2.11BSD.
Thanks for any input!
--
Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3)
jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3)
PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09346
for pups-liszt; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:56:26 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 17 01:47:14 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09341
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:56:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12057
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804161547.IAA12057(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greetings -
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
>
> What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83?
> What I have:
> PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation.
That tape device sounds like it is a TK25. It uses the DC600A
(60mb) cartridges.
> A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet.
> And I have a spare DEQNA laying about.
The DEQNA is supported by 2.11BSD so it would be a good idea to add
that board to the 11/83.
> What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the
> MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there.
Ok - that will work fine. Another possiibility would be to move the
TK25 (QIC) drive to the uVax-II and write the tapes to DC600A tapes.
Then move the TK25 back to the 11/25 and boot
> Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system?
Alas no. The RD52 is only ~30mb (the RD53 is about 70mb and the RD54
is ~159mb). A complete 2.11 system needs about 100mb (~8mb for a
root filesystem, 4mb for a swap partition and ~80mb for sources plus
binaries). A ZIP cartridge will (just) hold a complete 2.11 system
(with about 8mb left over). To hold a complete 2.11 system you'll
need either two RD53 drives or a single RD54.
A minimal system (root filesystem plus selected binaries from /usr)
could be installed on a RD52 but it would definitely not be a complete
system capable of recompiling itself.
> What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing
> 2.11BSD.
2.11 is an excellent match for the 11/83. Earlier versions (2.9 for
example) will have a difficult time because MSCP support did not
arrive until 2.10BSD. TMSCP support was not present until 2.10.1BSD
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10305
for pups-liszt; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:15 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Fri Apr 17 07:12:45 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10300
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109]
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2)
id 0yPvyp-0000Ph-00; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:14:00 +0100
Message-ID: <5kppZIANRnN1EwQW(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:12:45 +0100
To: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>,
Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> writes
>Hi,
>What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83?
>What I have:
>PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation.
>
>A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet.
>And I have a spare DEQNA laying about.
>
>What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the
>MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there.
>
Yes, this will be the simplest way
>Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system?
>
no, an RD54 is probably the best to aim for if you can get your hands on
one.
>What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing
>2.11BSD.
That will do fine
>
>
>Thanks for any input!
>
>--
>Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3)
>jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3)
>PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2)
>
Cheers
Robin
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 16, 0:00, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-)
If I'd been quicker off the mark with my 11/04, you would have :-)
> Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11.
> Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it?
> But it was a board, and not a machine...
That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. Wasn't
it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one with a
J11, too. Was that a Falcon+ ? I think there were three versions altogether.
Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way; the
ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set up to
do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I expect it
could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes
DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in a
BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have any
disks.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06809
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:06:55 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
>
> > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
> > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55
11/60 11/70 11/84...
> Two additions to make the list officially complete:
>
> QBUS: 11/93
> Unibus: 11/94
And one more to make the list officially really complete:
Unibus: 11/04
(which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else).
BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as
11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the
same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O
integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06065
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:57:26 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 07:56:14 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06060
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:56:52 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA12901;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:16 +0200
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:14 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
In-Reply-To: <9804152208.ZM16395(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415234941.9250J-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote:
> > <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
> > <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
> > <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
> > <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
> >
> > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that
> > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I
> > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11
> > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close).
>
> Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design
> features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available
> called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The
> same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is
> one of the big features.
You got to be kidding?!?
<FLAME ON>
The 68K is a miserable beast at the best of times.
Separated address and data registers, PC is a special register, some
addressing modes are not allowed in some instructions, some manipulations
can only be done on data register, not address registers, immediate mode
is just an assembler fake, it's actually another instruction, the
semantics of some instructions differ depending on what type of arguments
you use, writing PIC can be a real pain unless you have the 68K20. The
list is long and sad.
The 68K is what happens if you take a good design (PDP-11) and mungle up
every part of the design. It's like if they never really understood why
the PDP-11 was done they way it was, and copied the parts they though
nifty and continued with adding their own strange ideas on top of it.
<FLAME OFF>
Having said all this, it's still a nice thing compared to Intel stuff, I
guess. :-) (But I've only programmed the Z80...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06096
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:13 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Thu Apr 16 08:00:52 1998
Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06090
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from johnh@localhost)
by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06424
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199804152200.IAA06424(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies...
> Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and
> makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-)
The 11/20 used a switch mode power supply (H720) (I still have a
functional machine!). You would have to go back to something like a PDP8/e
(got one of these two!) for a huge linear power supply. It has a huge SCR for
the overvoltage crowbar in order to dump all the energy in the filter capacitors
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06106
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:19 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 08:00:20 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06088
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA12933;
Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:22 +0200
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:20 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com>
cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
In-Reply-To: <9804152230.ZM16484(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415235648.9250K-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> >
> > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
> > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55
> 11/60 11/70 11/84...
>
> > Two additions to make the list officially complete:
> >
> > QBUS: 11/93
> > Unibus: 11/94
>
> And one more to make the list officially really complete:
>
> Unibus: 11/04
> (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else).
Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-)
Is there anyone who can figure out any more models?
> BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as
> 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the
> same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O
> integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though.
Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11.
Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it?
But it was a board, and not a machine...
What about the VT103?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06285
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:08:21 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote:
> <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
> <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
> <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
> <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
>
> Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that
> is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I
> know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11
> and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close).
Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design
features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available
called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The
same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is
one of the big features.
> Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them.
All right, providing I can have the ones on this side of the Atlantic...
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05994
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:39 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
<> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their app
<> for electricity. :)
None the above systems are tough it really depends on the disks used. The
later of the three in the microPDP-11 format (ba23/123) are very resonable
using MSCP and MFM drives. The QBUS-11s are modest power compared to the
Ubus-11s.
Also the Qbus-11s win in the small sizing as well. I have two BA11n boxen
one with 11/23b and the other 11/73, RX02, RL02, and MSCP disks all in one
50" rack.
<For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be
<required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted
<a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some
<minor C compiling, associated with that.
A qbus 11/73 (or 83) a meg of ram and disks would be comfortably under
500 watts. Adding an RL02 is not painful though it uses more than the
CPU box total. The massbus disks or RK/RMs are high power just for the
spindle motors.
<> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with
<> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
You could if you set up event, ACOK and DCOK. Most of the DEC supplies
are actually lowvoltage switchers (744s) and the later ones are high
voltage swicthers (BA11s/BA32/BA123... all qbus).
<Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate
<20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my
<antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s?
The bigger Ubus machines and some of the bigger (physically too) disks
are killer though most common PDP11s are really quite moderate to small in
their needs.
<I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep
<a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is
Smae here, the CCS2200 with DISCUS 10m and two SA800s challenge the 11/23
for power needed!
<What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11
<There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never di
<get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for th
<CP/M thingie, instead.
The H11 was a LSI11/03 cpu with heath equivelents for DLs and memorys, the
disks however were strange.
<What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember
<the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in abou
<15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up.
<What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles?
I ahve V7 up on an 11/73 on one RL02 pack (10mb) and it's cramped with
about 4mb free. Two RL02s would be pretty good. If I can get 2.11 up
that will talk to the MSCP disks RD52(31mb)/53(71mb) and I'd expect plenty
of space then.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA04969
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:34 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 02:39:56 1998
Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA04964
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:27 +1000 (EST)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:39:56 -0700
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804151550.AA21199(a)world.std.com>
Message-ID: <13348030224.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
[What PDP-11s run Unix...]
I currently run Version 7 on a PDP-11/83 Q-bus box stored under my bed.
(I have a hospital bed, the kind you can crank up and down - Mine's about
3/4 the way up)
The RL02 I boot from is twice the size of the CPU!
I also have an MSCP device that I load RT-11 from.
BTW, there is a setting in the '83 Setup program called allow-alternate-bootblock,
you can directly boot Unix by enabling this. Does that work on an 11/73 as well?
I just turn on the RL, start the disk and the CPU at the same time, and the disk
comes ready just at the 9-step check finishes.
I say unix and off it goes.
Now, I I could just get it to see my DHQ11...
-------
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA05100
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:30 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 02:42:54 1998
Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05095
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:22 +1000 (EST)
Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16])
by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28669;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:26:02 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost)
by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA21659;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:21:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: (from tih@localhost)
by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22652;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:42:56 +0200 (CEST)
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
References: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:42:54 +0200
In-Reply-To: "Ed G."'s message of "Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400"
Message-ID: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
"Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> writes:
> What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
> generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
> out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
> better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
It's simply beautiful. The PDP-11 architecture is the pinnacle of
16-bit computing, as the 6502 (the world's first RISC chip) is the
unchallenged champion of elegance in 8-bit microprocessors. The
cleanliness and orthogonality of the PDP-11 is a wonder to behold.
To top it off, they also knew when to _break_ orthogonality to make
proper use of the addressing mode bit combinations that don't make
sense for use with the program counter.
A good friend of mine, for whom I have much respect, claims that the
PDP-10 is even more beautiful. I can't comment on this, not knowing
that architecture, but myself I've seen nothing to challenge the '11.
Among more modern processors, I'm quite partial to Motorola's MC68K.
I also like the Transputer -- who doesn't? As for microcontrollers,
I've worked quite a bit with the Intel MCS-51 chips, and enjoyed it.
For the definition of "butt ugly", see the Intel i386 and its ilk.
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05275
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:46 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 04:16:24 1998
Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA05268
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:39 +1000 (EST)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:16:24 -0700
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
To: tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO
cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Message-ID: <13348047785.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
[PDP-10 inst. set is nicer than PDP-11...]
Not sure about that, I haven't play with either enough to compare them.
But, judging by the pictures I have, a PDP-11/70 is about 1/2 as cool looking
as a KA-10!
[I *HAVE* to scan these and put them online sometime...]
-------
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05338
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:15 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 04:02:02 1998
Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05332
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16])
by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00359;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:26:02 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost)
by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id UAA21718;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:21:36 +0200 (CEST)
Received: (from tih@localhost)
by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22982;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:02:04 +0200 (CEST)
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
References: <199804151522.IAA22441(a)moe.2bsd.com>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:02:02 +0200
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)"
Message-ID: <86g1jfklph.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
"Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the
> one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here
> doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding
> of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a
> 11/73 (for QBUS).
Do you have the documentation you need for that RA81, Steven? I've
got the user's manual here, which isn't much, of course, but at least
tells you how to hook up a terminal, run diagnostics, and interpret
the results...
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA05651
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:49:32 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 05:48:00 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA05645
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:48:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA08980;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:03 +0200
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:00 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
In-Reply-To: <199804110246.WAA07393(a)renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415214003.8466A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities
> rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact
> "right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough.
>
> At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to
> me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to
> count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar
> utility. What do you all think?
Would probably be a better idea, yes. :-)
> > You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here.
> >
> > 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate?
>
> As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is
> relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file.
> This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the
> runtime image consisted of static data.
But you made an assumption that addrtesses to data don't come in theflt.
op-code range, since few programs have that much data. But, by assuming
that they don't have "that much" data, you must also assume that whatever
little dtaa there is don't start at a high address. Your program can have
as little as one word of data, located at 177776, referenced a zillion
times, and your algorithm will catch it as a zillion flt. ops.
> > 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range
> > 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode.
>
> My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would
> apply.
Oh, it most definitely does.
Tell me, what is the difference between a string of two bytes, a word, and
an instruction in memory?
Nothing. It's just a question of how you look at it.
So when you are talking about a word, how do you know that the programmer
didn't write two bytes there?
The reason I said "odd addres" was because the byte at the odd address is
the high byte of the word you are looking at.
> > 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the
> > high four bits.
>
> This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I
> don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much.
That is a good point. But it's still a problem.
The point is more or less always, but a lot of small errors...
:-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05701
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:07:06 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:06:30 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05696
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:06:49 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA09548;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:31 +0200
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
In-Reply-To: <199804110245.WAA07386(a)renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415215418.9250A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about
> this.
>
> In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch
> instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick
> skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would
> be a problem because:
>
> 1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128,
> 127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at
> the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the
> odd byte.
Correct.
> 2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem
> because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they
> always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never
> be followed by a negative number.
2 wrong.
. Where did you get the idea that jump instructions have to be absolute?
. What about jumps to absolute addresses in the flt. op-code range?
I'm not sure about the 2BSD assembler, but the normal way of coding is to
have *all* addressing relative in the DEC assemblers. That means not just
jumps, but all instructions which takes arguments.
Almost all have word arguments, branch being one of the few exceptions.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05804
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:36 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:33:19 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05798
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10435;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:21 +0200
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:19 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
In-Reply-To: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415223118.9250F-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor
> handbook* states:
>
> "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through
> the eight general purpose registers."
>
> If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and
> addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely
> the PC. I think this is quite cool.
>
> What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
> generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
> out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
> better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
The PDP-11 did it right, all others did it wrong. :-)
Well, at least as long as you're talking about general register machines.
(And points could be made that the M68K isn't very general about its
registers...)
For accumulator machines, I guess the vote goes to the PDP-10.
All with a big :-) of course. This is religion...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05852
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:42:10 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:41:02 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05847
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:41:13 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10538;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:03 +0200
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
cc: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415223736.9250G-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
> Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84...
Two additions to make the list officially complete:
QBUS: 11/93
Unibus: 11/94
The last PDP-11s by DEC.
Then you have the never-11s. (See the FAQ.)
> Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine.
> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite
> for electricity. :)
They are also normally just about the same machine as the next number in
line, but for OEM markets.
11/05 - 11/10
11/15 - 11/20
11/35 - 11/40
> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern
> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
> (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...)
:-)
Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies...
Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and
makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05987
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:11 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<"In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through
<the eight general purpose registers."
<
<If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and
<addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely
<the PC. I think this is quite cool.
Same for stack relative access.
The PDP-11 archetecture was an example of CISC to the max for 16 bit
machines, compared to most micros it has more and richers instruction
set, addressing modes and highlights what can be attained when all
registers are general. Added to a two address structure those registers
and addressing modes make for flexibility and programming power.
...yes a PC relative jump could easily be done with an add r7!
<What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
<generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
<out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
<better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that
is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I
know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11
and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). The
various chip versions of the PDP-11 (lsi11, T11, F11, J11) have achieved
performace exceeding many of the conteporary microprocessors in code
density and execution speed. The PDP-11 and the C language are an
excellent match, both for addressing modes and effienctcy of compilation.
It is also a good foundation for FORTH.
Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA04120
for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:24 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Wed Apr 15 23:17:47 1998
Received: from toes.its.uwlax.edu (toes.its.uwlax.edu [138.49.128.183])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04115
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: by toes.its.uwlax.edu;
id AA04337; NX5.67e/42; Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:50 -0500
Message-Id: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2.RR)
From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:47 -0500
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Reply-To: milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu
References: <199804141844.OAA03748(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
<9804150331.ZM9568(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id XAA04116
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi,
>
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>[snip]
>On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>
[snip]
>
>> Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often.
>> What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7
>> sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and
>> chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some
>> sort of machine together.
>
>There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two
>general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are
>Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to
>be smaller.
QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84...
Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine.
(They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite
for electricity. :)
Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern
switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
(donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...)
>
>As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run,
How about an 11/44?
>as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and
>data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is
>suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are
>quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models.
>
>Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as
>many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better),
>at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation
>software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there
>are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot
>more for BSD.
>
>Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what
>you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice
>you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-)
>
>--
>
>Pete Peter Turnbull
> Dept. of Computer Science
> University of York
>
---
Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
Information Technology Services -- Network Services
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04293
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:03:10 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Apr 16 01:03:00 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04288
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:03:04 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA13468; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0700
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804151403.AA13468(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0800 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from "Milo Velimirovic" at Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern
> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
> (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...)
It's hardly heretical - all Unibus 11's have always had switching
power supplies for the high-current (+5V and - for core machines - +20V)
lines. Depending on the exact model, +15 and/or -15 may have come
from a linear power supply, but these are very low-current lines and
not a major factor in power consumption.
The way to greatly reduce the power consumption of a big Unibus -11
is to go to a more modern CPU and memory in the original backplane.
For an extreme example, a 11/70 with 2 MW of core memory in MJ11 boxes
will draw about 70 Amps at 120 VAC, for over 8kW of power consumption.
But you can replace the 11/70 CPU set with a Quickware replacment
and take the CPU part of power consumption down to 3 or so Amps at
120 VAC, or under 0.4kW.
> >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run,
>
> How about an 11/44?
Yep, does work. (I had always been promising Steven that I would get
the FP emulator working so I could run it on my FP-less 11/44, but
I got a FP board before I got the emulator going. So you need the FP
board for a 11/44, still!)
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04313
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:06:49 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Apr 16 01:06:41 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04308
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:06:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA09801; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0700
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804151406.AA09801(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0800 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9804150331.ZM9568(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 15, 98 02:31:22 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as
> many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better),
> at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation
> software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there
> are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot
> more for BSD.
One important point to note is that if you want support for modern MSCP
disk devices, you want to go with 2.11BSD. The most modern disk devices
supported by 7th Edition are the RL02 and the various Massbus disks.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04414
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:29:07 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Apr 16 00:25:26 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04409
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:28:59 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04925;
Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199804151425.KAA04925(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am"
To: milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> >There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two
> >general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are
> >Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend
> >to be smaller.
>
> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
> Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55
> 11/60 11/70 11/84...
>
> Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine.
Which would be the ones to look out for for practical unix use?
> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite
> for electricity. :)
I have heard that from the computer students around here who chuckle at
the thought that I would attempt to run such a beastie. They are chasing
Alphas and Pentiums, whilst I am chasing pdp11s? Interesting directions.
For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be
required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted
a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some
minor C compiling, associated with that.
> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern
> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
I often use old DEC linear power supplies to run some of my antique radio
equipment. The power supplies themselves are not that much of an efficiency
thing, but the loads probably are. Minimizing unneeded loads on a home
system would be of merit. That is why I was wondering what sort of mininmal
box would do for home use, and still give some kind of reasonable service.
The electicity mongers need to be fed, but I don't need to treat them
to a full 7 course meal every day.
Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate
20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my
antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s?
> (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and
> "Frankenstein"...)
Don't worry, I still keep my ol' net asbestos flak suit hanging up in the
corner, for occasional donning.....(:+}}.... It is a little dusty.
It be faire windes and following seas about the net mostly, these days.
I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep
a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is
always a problem, anymore, especially in the deep south where silicon
valley ain't. You have to make do with what you can cobble together.
I find that I mix and mash parts from old surplus radio equipment,
computers, or whatever until I can make the thing work. That is as
much the fun of it as actually watching the platters whirr and spin.
> >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83
> >to run,
>
> How about an 11/44?
>
> >as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions
> >and data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is
> >suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which
> >are quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models.
What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11s?
There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never did
get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for that
CP/M thingie, instead.
> >Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as
> >many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better),
> >at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation
> >software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there
> >are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot
> >more for BSD.
What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember
the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in about
15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up.
What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles?
> >Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what
> >you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice
> >you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-)
I enjoy all the advice and comments.
Thanks to all for them.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04630
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:34:50 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Apr 16 01:22:57 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04625
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:34:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22441
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804151522.IAA22441(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Milo -
Hi.
> From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
>
> How about an 11/44?
Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the
one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here
doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding
of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a
11/73 (for QBUS).
The 11/84 and 94 will also work very well. Qbus models from the 11/53
on up will also work (the 53 hasn't actually been 'tested' but "should"
work, the 73, 83, 93 are all known to work).
While the 11/45 has the MMU aspects required (split I/D and supervisor
mode) it doesn't support enough memory. The 11/45 can only have 248kb
of memory and a full 2.11 kernel+networking+diskcache+datastructures
setup weighs in at almost 400kb
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04752
for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:50:59 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential
> for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why
> are most of us here?)
> Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie
> sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how
> to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe
> to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via
> a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD
> sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk,
> and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator
> proper, might be feasible, maybe?
Yes, you want one of the emulator packages and a disk image for that. BTW, the
disk images I've seen don't have man pages, so you may want to download those
separately.
> Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often.
> What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7
> sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and
> chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some
> sort of machine together.
There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two
general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are
Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to
be smaller.
As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run,
as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and
data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is
suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are
quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models.
Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as
many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better),
at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation
software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there
are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot
more for BSD.
Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what
you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice
you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02452
for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:43 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 15 13:09:26 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02444
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-00.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.64]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id XAA00267 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:25 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor
handbook* states:
"In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through
the eight general purpose registers."
If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and
addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely
the PC. I think this is quite cool.
What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02467
for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:51 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 15 13:09:26 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02451
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-00.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.64]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id XAA00270; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804150309.XAA00270(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <9804111346.ZM7828(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
References: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> "Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?" (Apr 10, 22:40)
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> What about position-independent code?
Your query got me thinking about the various addressing modes
of the PDP-11 and how they might affect my brute force approach to
estimating floating point ops for C programs. Is this what you meant
when you asked about position independent code?
And yes, these addressing modes could mean the death knell for my
approach.
Index mode is definitely a problem as C programs seem to use r5 as a
frame pointer with both positive and *negative* 16 bit offsets (see
assembly language listing of my square root program below).
I don't think PC relative mode (e.g., clr addr) is a problem
(if the data segment follows the text, then the offsets would all be
positive and all less than the size of the program).
Is there such a thing as PC relative mode for the jmp op
code? In other words, can you make long + or -32K relative jumps on
the PDP-11? If so, this too could potentially confound my estimates.
.globl _absv
.text
_absv:
~~absv:
jsr r5,csv
~n=4
jbr L1
L2:clrf r0
cmpf 4(r5),r0
cfcc
jge L4
movf 4(r5),r0
negf r0
jbr L3
jbr L5
L4:movf 4(r5),r0
jbr L3
L5:L3:jmp cret
L1:jbr L2
.globl _mysqrt
.text
_mysqrt:
~~mysqrt:
jsr r5,csv
~n=4
jbr L6
L7:~g=177762
~err=177752
movf 4(r5),r0
divf $40400,r0
movf r0,-16(r5)
.data
L10000:77777;177776;177777;177777
.text
movf 4(r5),r0
divf L10000,r0
movf r0,-26(r5)
movf -16(r5),r0
movf r0,-(sp)
mov $L9,-(sp)
jsr pc,_printf
add $12,sp
L10:movf -16(r5),r0
mulf -16(r5),r0
subf 4(r5),r0
movf r0,-(sp)
jsr pc,_absv
add $10,sp
cmpf -26(r5),r0
cfcc
jgt L11
movf -16(r5),r0
mulf -16(r5),r0
addf 4(r5),r0
movf $40400,r1
mulf -16(r5),r1
divf r1,r0
movf r0,-16(r5)
movf -16(r5),r0
movf r0,-(sp)
mov $L12,-(sp)
jsr pc,_printf
add $12,sp
jbr L10
L11:movf -16(r5),r0
jbr L8
L8:jmp cret
L6:sub $20,sp
jbr L7
.globl _main
.text
_main:
~~main:
jsr r5,csv
jbr L13
L14:.data
L10001:77777;177776;177777;177777
.text
movf L10001,r0
movf r0,-16(r5)
~n=177762
movf -16(r5),r0
movf r0,-(sp)
jsr pc,_mysqrt
add $10,sp
movf r0,-(sp)
mov $L16,-(sp)
jsr pc,_printf
add $12,sp
L15:jmp cret
L13:sub $10,sp
jbr L14
.globl fltused
.globl
.data
L9:.byte 111,156,151,164,151,141,154,40,147,165,145,163,163,72
.byte 40,45,56,61,66,146,12,12,0
L12:.byte 147,165,145,163,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0
L16:.byte 12,115,171,40,163,161,165,141,162,145,40,162,157,157
.byte 164,40,151,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02612
for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:54:11 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
by m＠mbsks.franken.de
Mahlzeit
According to Warren Toomey:
> I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
> me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
Then you still have the chance to get AU-0. :)
> P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
Because of the AT&T Unix computers?
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04410
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:30:51 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Apr 8 00:29:55 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04405
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:30:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx102-ip41.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.41])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12701;
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:30:25 -0700
Message-ID: <352A3863.279915CF(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 07:29:55 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
References: <199804070551.PAA01173(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hey, maybe you can be AU-0 after all. That's an excellent idea!
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> All,
> I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
> me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
>
> Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias,
> Paul P, Paul V, Steven
>
> Cheers,
> Warren
>
> P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04494
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:12:37 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Apr 8 01:12:14 1998
Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04489
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:12:31 +1000 (EST)
Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27])
by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21964;
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id JAA18391; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:14 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:14 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199804071512.JAA18391(a)hydrus.USask.Ca>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was
a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given
the number of signatures on the petition.
Neil
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05735
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:06:02 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 08:07:19 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05730
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:05:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02178; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:07:20 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804072207.IAA02178(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:07:19 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804071512.JAA18391(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 09:12:14 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Neil Johnson:
> I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was
> a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given
> the number of signatures on the petition.
> Neil
Afert sleeping on it, and inspecting the bundle of 12 from Dion yesterday,
I see the AU-12 license is dated 16th March. Now I know SCO took their
license fee from my account on the 24th of March. Therefore I suspect that
licensing haven't passed the paperwork on to Dion, for those licenses
processed after the 16th March.
This probably indicates that there are more licenses still in the works.
I should get some mail from Dion today, and I'll pass on anything relevant.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05854
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:32:22 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 08:33:46 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05849
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:32:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02379; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:33:46 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804072233.IAA02379(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More licenses in the works
To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:33:46 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980407152602.02045(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 03:26:02 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Dion Johnson:
> I just received 12 more licenses signed by the NJ legal folks.
> But yours was not in this batch.
> I will get these copied and off to you tomorrow (I think).
Thanks Dion, I know you're working hard there. It looks like legal are
the bottleneck.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06652
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:26:08 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 13:25:33 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06642
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0e.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.78]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id XAA26771; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:40 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804080325.XAA26771(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
In-reply-to: <199804070255.MAA00874(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <199804070248.WAA14210(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 10:48:17 pm"
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Yeah, I haven't used the tape stuff much, mainly because of the muck
> around building the pre/postambles per record.
I've got perl scripts that do this. I'd be happy to donate them to
the archive if you're interested.
> An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1
>
> Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-)
Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator.
However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the
emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to
examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work
environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails
around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to
dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem.
Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk:
Ed
sim> att rl1 junk.dsk
RL: creating new file
sim> cont
# pwd
/
# tar cvf /dev/rrl1 *
tar: p: cannot open file
a bin/ac 20 blocks
a bin/ar 20 blocks
a bin/arcv 8 blocks
a bin/at 17 blocks
a bin/basename 4 blocks
a bin/login.old 18 blocks
a bin/cat 8 blocks
a bin/cb 11 blocks
a bin/cc 13 blocks
a bin/checkeq 9 blocks
a bin/chgrp 10 blocks
a bin/chmod 7 blocks
a bin/chown 10 blocks
a bin/clri 7 blocks
a bin/cmp 9 blocks
a bin/col 10 blocks
a bin/comm 10 blocks
a bin/cp 7 blocks
a bin/crypt 10 blocks
a bin/cu 14 blocks
a bin/date 12 blocks
a bin/dcheck 9 blocks
a bin/dd 14 blocks
a bin/deroff 18 blocks
a bin/df 7 blocks
a bin/diff 19 blocks
a bin/du 8 blocks
a bin/dump 17 blocks
a bin/dumpdir 16 blocks
a bin/echo 1 blocks
a bin/ed 22 blocks
a bin/egrep 18 blocks
a bin/expr 17 blocks
a bin/fgrep 11 blocks
a bin/file 13 blocks
a bin/find 22 blocks
a bin/graph 30 blocks
a bin/grep 12 blocks
a bin/icheck 14 blocks
a bin/iostat 22 blocks
a bin/join 12 blocks
a bin/kill 7 blocks
a bin/ld 22 blocks
a bin/ln 8 blocks
a bin/login 19 blocks
a bin/look 10 blocks
a bin/ls 20 blocks
a bin/mail 26 blocks
a bin/mesg 7 blocks
a bin/mkdir 8 blocks
a bin/mv 13 blocks
a bin/ncheck 10 blocks
a bin/newgrp 16 blocks
a bin/nice 9 blocks
a bin/nm 12 blocks
a bin/od 12 blocks
a bin/ps 19 blocks
a bin/passwd 17 blocks
a bin/pr 22 blocks
a bin/prof 22 blocks
a bin/v6sh 11 blocks
a bin/pstat 16 blocks
a bin/ptx 16 blocks
a bin/pwd 7 blocks
a bin/quot 19 blocks
a bin/random 13 blocks
a bin/ranlib 12 blocks
a bin/restor 24 blocks
a bin/rev 7 blocks
a bin/rm 10 blocks
a bin/rmdir 8 blocks
a bin/sa 23 blocks
a bin/size 8 blocks
a bin/sleep 6 blocks
a bin/sort 19 blocks
a bin/sp 5 blocks
a bin/spline 18 blocks
a bin/split 8 blocks
a bin/strip 8 blocks
a bin/stty 11 blocks
a bin/su 22 blocks
a bin/sum 8 blocks
a bin/sync 1 blocks
a bin/tail 4 blocks
a bin/tc 17 blocks
a bin/tee 3 blocks
a bin/test 6 blocks
a bin/time 11 blocks
a bin/tk 11 blocks
a bin/touch 6 blocks
a bin/tr 6 blocks
a bin/tsort 16 blocks
a bin/tty 6 blocks
a bin/uniq 9 blocks
a bin/units 19 blocks
a bin/vpr 16 blocks
a bin/wc 12 blocks
a bin/who 13 blocks
a bin/write 11 blocks
a bin/yes 5 blocks
a bin/1 1 blocks
a bin/calendar 1 blocks
a bin/diff3 1 blocks
a bin/false 1 blocks
a bin/lookbib 1 blocks
a bin/lorder 1 blocks
a bin/man 2 blocks
a bin/nohup 1 blocks
a bin/plot 1 blocks
a bin/spell 2 blocks
a bin/true 0 blocks
a bin/lint 1 blocks
a bin/notavail link to bin/lint
a bin/pcc link to bin/lint
a bin/struct link to bin/lint
a bin/adb 54 blocks
a bin/awk 89 blocks
a bin/bc 26 blocks
a bin/cptree 16 blocks
a bin/poke6 19 blocks
a bin/dc 45 blocks
a bin/em 36 blocks
a bin/enroll 31 blocks
a bin/eqn 56 blocks
a bin/m4 27 blocks
a bin/make 40 blocks
a bin/neqn 51 blocks
a bin/nroff 75 blocks
a bin/prep 14 blocks
a bin/ratfor 27 blocks
a bin/roff 17 blocks
a bin/sed 26 blocks
a bin/sh 34 blocks
a bin/tar 35 blocks
a bin/tbl 60 blocks
a bin/tp 20 blocks
a bin/xget 41 blocks
a bin/xsend 42 blocks
a bin/factor 6 blocks
a bin/primes 6 blocks
a bin/yacc 48 blocks
a bin/lex 57 blocks
a bin/tek 21 blocks
a bin/t300 20 blocks
a bin/t300s 20 blocks
a bin/t450 20 blocks
a bin/vplot 22 blocks
a bin/refer 58 blocks
a bin/as 11 blocks
a bin/ops 16 blocks
a bin/f77 link to bin/lint
a bin/vcopy 8 blocks
a bin/learn 1 blocks
a bin/notmade link to bin/learn
a bin/troff link to bin/learn
a bin/dfOLD 7 blocks
a bin/ls.11 16 blocks
a bin/.profile 1 blocks
a bin/ps.old 18 blocks
a bin/rmail link to bin/mail
a bin/m68k link to bin/false
a bin/u3b2 link to bin/false
a bin/pr.old 16 blocks
a boot 19 blocks
a dev/makefile 6 blocks
tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/tty is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/mem is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/kmem is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/null is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/mt0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/ttya is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/swap is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/ttye is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/nmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/tty2 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/tty3 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/tty4 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/nrmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/rl0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rl1 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rrl0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rrl1 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: etc: cannot open file
tar: global: cannot open file
tar: global.c: cannot open file
tar: global.s: cannot open file
tar: hello: cannot open file
tar: hello.c: cannot open file
tar: hello.s: cannot open file
tar: lib: cannot open file
tar: lost+found: cannot open file
tar: mnt: cannot open file
tar: mysqrt.c: cannot open file
tar: mysqrt.s: cannot open file
tar: normps: cannot open file
tar: nothing: cannot open file
tar: nothing.c: cannot open file
tar: nothing.s: cannot open file
tar: rkunix: cannot open file
tar: rl1unix: cannot open file
tar: stand: cannot open file
tar: tmp: cannot open file
tar: u1: cannot open file
tar: unix: cannot open file
tar: usr: cannot open file
#
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06651
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:26:06 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 13:25:33 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06641
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0e.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.78]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id XAA26777; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:44 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
In-reply-to: <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:42:54PM -0400
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
> the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are
addresses and data words. Have I left anything out?
I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs
would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to
generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest
program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510
bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!)
That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin
with 17 octal?
Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number.
Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability
of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1
in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes.
I examined the run time image of factor. It was 3072 bytes long, of
which 222 bytes or less than 10% appeared to be global data.
Counting immediate operands, I think it is reasonable to assume a
10-1 code to data ratio.
That would mean for factor that 2 of the 132 FPOs would be bogus
(111* 1/64 = 2 approx).
Most programs are bigger than factor, however. cptree and ops are
close to the average size (around 7800 bytes) for an executable in
the bin directory. So for the average program you might expect to
see 7800*.1*1/128 = 6 bogus FPOs.
"there are lies, damn lies and statistics"--Mark Twain (I think)
Ed G.
List of floating point ops by program:
awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ed 321
mail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
cu 282
diff 277
pr 275
poke6 275
sed 267
find 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
as 152
od 151
look 149
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
dd 141
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
cb 134
mv 134
comm 133
newgrp 133
dcheck 132
factor 132
rmdir 125
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
df 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
nice 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
cat 103
tail 103
sleep 101
stty 98
mkdir 98
mesg 96
cp 96
touch 96
strip 96
tty 91
chmod 90
split 90
uniq 89
pwd 86
rev 86
chown 84
chgrp 84
kill 83
arcv 83
yes 79
tr 58
sp 57
test 53
basename 34
tee 24
echo 4
sync 2
finddouble.pl 0
u3b2 0
1 0
f77 0
lint 0
finddouble.pl~ 0
true 0
spell 0
troff 0
notmade 0
nohup 0
diff3 0
learn 0
notavail 0
findfp.pl~ 0
lookbib 0
pcc 0
man 0
plot 0
m68k 0
false 0
findfp.pl 0
struct 0
lorder 0
calendar 0
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06682
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:32:13 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 13:33:29 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06677
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:32:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03044; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:30 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804080333.NAA03044(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Getting Files In/Out of PDP-11 Simulators
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:29 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26771(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 7, 98 11:25:33 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Ed G.:
[getting files in/out of PDP-11 simulators]
> > An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1
> > Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-)
>
> Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator.
>
> However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the
> emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to
> examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work
> environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails
> around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to
> dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem.
Some simulators open a truncated file, and then die once it gets to a
certain size. A solution here is to cp an existing big file over to the
desired disk image. It will, of course, be overwritten as you tar out
to the disk image.
Specific problems are touched on below:
> Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk:
> tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped
V7 tar cannot dump device files.
> tar: etc: cannot open file
Probably your disk image has been corrupted. Use /etc/fsck if it
exists, otherwise icheck, ncheck and dcheck. For instance, the Supnik
RL02 image has got a small, recoverable problem. The Supnik V7 RK05 image
seems to be completely stuffed, and fsck gives up on it.
I do have new images for these, and I should pass them on to Bob.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06782
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:15 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Apr 8 14:03:57 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06777
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:07 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13667;
Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:58 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA12367;
Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:58 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:57 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:25:33PM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 23:25:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>> How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
>> the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
>
> Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
> decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
> some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
>
> Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
>
> (reasoning omitted)
You don't say whether you restricted your search to the text segment.
Anyway, at this point, I would have modified the script somewhat to
display the locations of the words, and then would have looked at the
text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06821
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:10 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 14:12:29 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06815
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:04 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03122; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:29 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804080412.OAA03122(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:29 +1000 (EST)
Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 8, 98 01:33:57 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> Considering that
> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
I know zip all about PDP-11 FP, but I know that when I was getting my
Apout V7 simulator working (which doesn't do FP, by the way), I had to
at least emulate setd, because crt0 in V7 starts with:
start:
setd
mov 2(sp),r0
clr -2(r0)
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06837
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:29 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Wed Apr 8 14:11:22 1998
Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06832
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from johnh@localhost)
by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06388
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:22 +1000
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:22 +1000
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199804080411.OAA06388(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> After some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx
numbers in the text image.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06875
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:28:16 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 14:27:40 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06870
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:28:04 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0a.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.74]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id AAA00145; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:27:40 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804080427.AAA00145(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:27:40 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:25:33PM -0400
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain
library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the
floating point features of the routines are not used.
Consider this:
Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c
contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c
has nothing in its main loop.
Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script
===========================================
nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2
hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115
See what I mean?
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06927
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:47:00 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Apr 8 14:34:43 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06922
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:46:55 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA19850;
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804080434.VAA19850(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
>
> I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
> generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
Not quite 'always'. In some cases yes, relative addressing is
generated but quite frequently you'll see absolute addresses
used. Why? I don't know ;)
On some machines mode 3 is a bit faster than mode 6 but I doubt that
was the reason.
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07030
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:15:27 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Apr 8 15:15:08 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07025
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:15:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13740;
Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:13 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA12608;
Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:08 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980408144508.09240(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:08 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199804080427.AAA00145(a)renoir.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199804080427.AAA00145(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:27:40AM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:27:40 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>> text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
>> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
>> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
>
> My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain
> library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the
> floating point features of the routines are not used.
>
> Consider this:
>
> Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c
> contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c
> has nothing in its main loop.
>
> Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script
> ===========================================
> nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2
> hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115
>
> See what I mean?
I don't see that this proves anything. You really need to look at
those words and see how they are used.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07433
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:54:10 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Apr 8 17:53:37 1998
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07428
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:53:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13459;
Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:53:40 +0200
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:53:37 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980408094723.13372A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> > How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
> > the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
>
> Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
> decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
> some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
>
> Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
>
> It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are
> addresses and data words. Have I left anything out?
>
> I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs
> would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to
> generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest
> program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510
> bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!)
>
> That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin
> with 17 octal?
>
> Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number.
> Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability
> of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1
> in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes.
You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here.
1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not.
2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation
of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1.
3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range
240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode.
4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the
high four bits.
Of these four assumptions, the fourth is the most serious, and probably
the cause of most of your "hits". You'll have to do better...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10162
for pups-liszt; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:36:02 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 9 07:37:36 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10157
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:35:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04236 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:37:36 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804082137.HAA04236(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Have a safe Easter!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:37:36 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Easter's here, I'm off to a friend's wedding. Have a safe & happy break, and
I'll see (hear?) from you all on Tuesday.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10201
for pups-liszt; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:42:08 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 9 07:43:42 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10196
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:42:04 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04280 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:43:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804082143.HAA04280(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Yet more licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:43:42 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
I have 13 more licenses for you, being copied now.
I will mail these off tomorrow or Friday.
Dion
----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16327
for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:19:34 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Fri Apr 10 23:19:59 1998
Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16322
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:19:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40])
by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id JAA27778
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:22 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
id <HSD5TNA2>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:20:09 -0400
Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD917(a)excmso.mso.dec.com>
From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RE: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator - second one found
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:59 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
A second bug has been found in the floating point emulator. The
first (in MODf) caused FACTOR to malfunction. This one causes problems
in AWK.
The bug is in LDEXP. In pdp11_fp.c:
case 015: /* LDEXP
*/
dst = (dstspec <= 07)? R[dstspec]: ReadW (GeteaW
(dstspec));
F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac);
fac.h = (fac.h & ~FP_EXP) | (((dst + FP_BIAS) &
FP_M_EXP) << FP_V_EXP);
newV = 0;
==> if ((dst > 0177) || (dst <= 0177600)) {
Change the indicated line to:
if ((dst > 0177) && (dst <= 0177600)) {
The test case is:
# awk 'END {print 1+2}' < /dev/null
incorrectly produced 0, now produces 3.
/Bob Supnik
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16423
for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:50:38 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Fri Apr 10 23:50:56 1998
Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16418
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:50:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40])
by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id JAA00404
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
id <HSD5TNBG>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:51:09 -0400
Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD91B(a)excmso.mso.dec.com>
From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: "'PUPS'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Question re TM11 boostrap
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:56 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
actually skips the first record and reads the second.
Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
Thanks /Bob Supnik
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA16774
for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:34 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Apr 11 02:35:38 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA16768
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:28 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA06532; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:35:38 -0700
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804101535.AA06532(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
To: Bob.Supnik(a)DIGITAL.com (Bob Supnik)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:35:38 -0800 (PDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD91B(a)excmso.mso.dec.com> from "Bob Supnik" at Apr 10, 98 09:50:56 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
> has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
> jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
> actually skips the first record and reads the second.
It depends on which OS (and version) you're using, but most of
DEC's later OS's made some attempt to have bootable tapes be
ANSI-labeled volumes. This meant that the boot block had to come
after the VOL1 header. See, for example, the source code to
RT-11's DUP utility.
> Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
I certainly have some boot ROM's that I can disassemble. I'll
also check my DEC manuals for the toggle-in bootstraps.
I know that in some cases it was necessary to re-execute the toggle-in
bootstrap if the real boot block was the second file/record.
Also note that it wasn't until the late 70's/early 80's that DEC
adopted the "second block is the boot block" strategy. You're
likely to see different things depending on when a bootstrap was
written.
> What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
> particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
2.11 plays it safe by putting down two copies of the boot block at
the beginning of the tape, each ending with a filemark.
All Q-bus tape bootstraps that might reside in a 11/53's console firmware
would be looking for the boot block to be the second block on tape. But
as the TM11 wasn't a Q-bus device I don't think the 11/53 firmware is
going to resolve this issue.
A side comment on the emulator: Have you ever considered putting the
11/53 firmware into your emulator, so that users can use the bootstraps
and diagnostics built into it? Would there be copyright problems to
resolve before you could do this?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA16834
for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:02:25 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 11 02:01:24 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA16829
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:02:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14552;
Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804101601.JAA14552(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Bob, et al -
> Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
> has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
For booting 2.xBSD that will work fine.
> jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
> actually skips the first record and reads the second.
True - and that's precisely why bootable tapes (at least starting with
2.9BSD, not sure about V7) have two copies of the tapebootblock at
the front. The layout of a boottape is:
tapeboot
tapeboot
boot
<filemark>
standaloneprogram 1
<filemark>
...
> Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
What I use (it's in the 2.11 setup documentation) is:
If no other means are available, the following code can be keyed in
and executed at (say) 0100000 to boot from a TM tape drive (the magic number
172526 is the address of the TM-11 current memory address register;
an adjustment may be necessary if your controller is at a nonstandard
address):
012700 (mov $unit, r0)
000000 (normally unit 0)
012701 (mov $172526, r1)
172526
010141 (mov r1, -(r1))
012741 (mov $60003, -(r1))
060003 (if unit 1 use 060403, etc)
000777 (br .)
This does nothing more than read the first record (much like V2.3a
already does) into location 0. Then a ^E is typed followed by
"g 0".
> What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
> particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
The tape bootblocks for 2.xBSD all know to skip TWO copies of the
tapebootblock in order to find the 'boot' program.
The actual standalone programs present differ between 2.9 and 2.11
but 2.11's is:
tapeboot
tapeboot
boot
<filemark>
disklabel
<filemark>
mkfs
<filemark>
restor
<filemark>
icheck
<filemark>
dump of root fs
<filemark>
For 2.11 the 'tapeboot' is a universal bootblock - it can handle
all 4 tape drive types (MS, MM, MT, TMSCP). 2.9 on the otherhand
has different tapebootblocks at the front of the tape depending on
the drive type (MS or MM/MT, no TMSCP support in 2.9). Thus if you
have a MS bootblock you can't boot from the tape on a MT based system.
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18196
for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:16 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:35 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18185
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:07 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07389 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:45:58 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804110245.WAA07389(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:35 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Bob's Magtape Vindicated-Unix to Blame!
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I described in an earlier post how uv7 tar would fail, extracting the
same file over and over again (see below for example).
It turns out that Bob's magtape works just fine: the problem is in
tar!
uv7 tar has a bug in it--a misplaced assignment--which causes it to
read the first block over and over (see below for example) when
used with the 'f' option.
The bug is indirectly a result of a trick tar uses to determine the
block size on the mag tape: rather than interrogate Unix about the
block size (can someone tell me how do this?), tar first attempts to
read the maximum block size supported by tar (20*512 bytes). The
number of bytes actually returned is taken to be the actual block
size and is used by tar for reads thereafter.
Two simple workarounds for /dev/rmt0 are:
tar vx0
and
tar vxfb /dev/rmt0 1
The problem:
# tar vxf /dev/rmt0
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
etc.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18199
for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:20 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:34 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18186
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07393; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:46:00 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804110246.WAA07393(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:34 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
In-reply-to: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980408094723.13372A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'd like to thank everyone who wrote me on this subject,
and especially those described the weaknesses they saw in my
reasoning.
I have found it useful sometimes to take a step back and reconsider
what it is I am trying do and how I am trying to do it.
My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities
rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact
"right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough.
At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to
me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to
count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar
utility. What do you all think?
> You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here.
>
> 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not.
I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate?
As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is
relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file.
This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the
runtime image consisted of static data.
> 2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation
> of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1.
You are absolutely right. Thank you for pointing this out.
> 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range
> 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode.
My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would
apply.
> 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the
> high four bits.
This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I
don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much.
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18203
for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:23 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:35 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18197
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07386; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:45:54 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804110245.WAA07386(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:35 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199804080411.OAA06388(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
> generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
> earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx
> numbers in the text image.
I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about
this.
In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch
instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick
skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would
be a problem because:
1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128,
127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at
the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the
odd byte.
2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem
because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they
always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never
be followed by a negative number.
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA25622
for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:22:02 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Tue Apr 14 01:21:45 1998
Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA25617
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:21:55 +1000 (EST)
Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27])
by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01657;
Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id JAA21310; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:45 -0600 (CST)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:45 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199804131521.JAA21310(a)hydrus.USask.Ca>
To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I have booted a TMB11 with a simple program to load the first record into block
0. The tape must be rewound to BOT, then the program at location 0 run. I
don't think the 9301 bootstrap actually skips the first record. Hope this
helps.
Neil
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28778
for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:21:13 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 14 20:23:21 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28773
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:21:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA09911 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:23:21 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804141023.UAA09911(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More licenses have arrived!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:23:21 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All, The latest batch of licenses has arrived from Dion at SCO:
Stefan Bieschewski, Robin Birch, W. Bulte, Anthony Duell,
Alexander Duerrschnabel, Kevin Dunlap, Arno Griffioen, Neil Johnson,
Greg Lehey, Kirk McKusick, Joseph Myers, Carl Phillips, Jason Wells
As always, if you want access to the on-line PUPS Archive, or a copy
on tape/CD, then email your request to pupsarchive(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au.
You will receive a form reply, and we will process it as soon as possible.
Note that we won't start burning the first CDs until around the 21st April.
If you want on-line access, I will need a fax number or a PGP key so that
I can mail you the access details, with a moderate amount of security. I
won't accept PGP keys via email. I'll accept keys via finger, web page,
key signing service, etc. Please include the method to obtain your key
in your email request above.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA00785
for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:47:46 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Apr 15 04:44:16 1998
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00780
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:47:40 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys@localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03748;
Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199804141844.OAA03748(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greetings to the list, and thanks to Warren for telling me about it.
I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential
for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why
are most of us here?)
Sadly, my only experiences with PDP-11ish things are so long ago as to
be rather faded. We used one box (two small chassis about 8 inches high
stacked together -- possibly PDP-8 or PDP-11) as some sort of remote job
entry terminal that the grad students would be occasionally allowed to
touch and load their SAS jobs up from (mid 70's) to the mainframe at
Iowa State U. I remember the two DEC boxes and some sort of glass tty,
and a paper tape reader that was used to boot it in some way, should
the woeful grad student crash it late at night. That got me rather
interested in computers and for several years after that time when I
came to NCSU, I tried all kinds of ways to fund and coerce some sort
of Heathkit version of that with some sort of early unix out of the
powers that be, but they tended to think it was computing and not
agronomy, so I wound up doing that with z80's and s-100 bus crates that
could be hooked up to the mainframe remotely via CP/M and paper tape or
81K floppies locally. But, that has always perked my interest in the
old unix beasts. I still have the old pdp-11 Heathkit manual sets and
builders instructions, should I find one in the bilges somewhere....(:+}}...
Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie
sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how
to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe
to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via
a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD
sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk,
and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator
proper, might be feasible, maybe?
Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often.
What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7
sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and
chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some
sort of machine together.
Thanks, and any comments for the newbie are appreciated.
Bob Keys
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02353
for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:39:48 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 6, 9:15, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
> > Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
> > various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
> > post the source.
>
> I'd be interested.
I don't want to clutter everyone's mailbox with a 32K file, so I've put it on
http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/dhrystone.c
and anyone who wants can grab it from there. If there's any problem accessing
that page from that server, please do two things:
1) tell me! so I can complain, and
2) try http://www.personal.u-net.com/~dunnington/public/dhrystone.c
or http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/ and follow the "no intel" link :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27910
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:32:41 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Apr 6 14:25:26 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27905
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:32:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11498;
Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804060425.VAA11498(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog(a)lemis.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca,
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
> I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
> on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
> /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
> /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not
the optimizer or preprocessor
> date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected
thing.
I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the
moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old
and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice
RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if
P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27929
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:38:09 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 14:38:00 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27924
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:38:03 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11029;
Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA03317;
Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980406140800.57401(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804060425.VAA11498(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199804060425.VAA11498(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 09:25:26PM -0700
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, 5 April 1998 at 21:25:26 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>> I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
>> on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
>
>> /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
>> /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
>
> I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not
> the optimizer or preprocessor
Hmm. That's a big difference in favour of Begemot.
>> date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
>
> Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected
> thing.
It's not 100% accurate. On my machine, it loses a few minutes a day.
But all the numbers add up, and it didn't lose noticably more time
during the build.
> I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the
> moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old
> and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice
> RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if
> P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks.
I'll put some stuff together. I've exchanged some mail on the
subjecte today with J�rg Micheel, one of the authors. Hartmut Brandt,
the other, is in Germany and thus probably sleeping. The version I
have him includes images for 2.11BSD, which I can't give to anybody,
though I suppose we can make an exception in your case :-) I'll see
what I can put together.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA00762
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:25:32 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Tue Apr 7 07:25:57 1998
Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00757
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:25:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40])
by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id RAA17311
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:19 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
id <HSD5TL25>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:26:02 -0400
Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE69206683E78(a)excmso.mso.dec.com>
From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RE: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:57 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
There is indeed a bug in the floating point emulator: MODf was setting
the condition codes off the integer result, not the fractional result.
To fix the bug, look for this code fragment in source module pdp11_fp.c
case 3: /* MODf */
ReadFP (&fsrc, GeteaFP (dstspec, lenf), dstspec, lenf);
F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac);
newV = modfp11 (&fac, &fsrc, &modfrac);
F_STORE (qdouble, fac, FR[ac | 1]);
F_STORE (qdouble, modfrac, FR[ac]);
==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, fac.h, newV);
break;
Change the indicated code line to be:
==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV);
and recompile.
Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which
showed the bug.
(I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in
MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the run
time libraries.)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00880
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:04:43 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Apr 7 08:03:34 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00875
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:04:36 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28357;
Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804062203.PAA28357(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com
Subject: modf
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Bob -
> Change the indicated code line to be:
>
> ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV);
>
> and recompile.
>
> Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which
> showed the bug.
The 'primes' program also uses 'modf' so it might encounter the same
problem as FACTOR.
> (I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in
> MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the runtime
'modf' is used in the runtime routines which compute 'long' (and
unsigned long) remainders. So if 'vi' is doing something like
"long % X" or "unsigned long % X" it's possible (likely) that it's
getting a wrong answer and becoming extremely confused.
I'll check this later tonight.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA01023
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:59:25 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Apr 7 08:58:38 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA01018
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:59:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip28.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.128])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06639
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:59:09 -0700
Message-ID: <35295E1E.DD7BB731(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:58:38 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: License AU-1 arrives!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
license: AU-1!
Now, to do something with it.
Dave
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01144
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:55:16 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 09:56:31 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01139
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00432; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:56:32 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804062356.JAA00432(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:56:31 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <35295E1E.DD7BB731(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 03:58:38 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by David C. Jenner:
> I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
> license: AU-1!
>
> Now, to do something with it.
> Dave
You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from
Dion, you'll get access to the archive.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01191
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:06:18 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Apr 7 10:05:21 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01186
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:06:11 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip28.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.128])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07325;
Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:05:52 -0700
Message-ID: <35296DC1.36FFDB54(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:05:21 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
References: <199804062356.JAA00432(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you,
Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put
into it.
But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We
are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by David C. Jenner:
> > I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
> > license: AU-1!
> >
> > Now, to do something with it.
> > Dave
>
> You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from
> Dion, you'll get access to the archive.
>
> Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01206
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:08:30 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 10:09:43 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01201
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:08:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00531; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:09:44 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070009.KAA00531(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:09:43 +1000 (EST)
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <35296DC1.36FFDB54(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 05:05:21 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by David C. Jenner:
> Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you,
> Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put
> into it.
>
> But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We
> are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about.
> Dave
I don't think the licensing section in San Francisco knows me from Adam.
I asked Dion if AU stood for Ancient Unix, Australia or both :-)
I'm so glad at least two people have got licenses (Charles Retter too).
It sets a legal precedent, in case SCO ever change their mind.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01341
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:36:05 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Tue Apr 7 10:35:46 1998
Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01335
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from johnh@localhost)
by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11206
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:46 +1000
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:46 +1000
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199804070035.KAA11206(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01383
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:25 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Apr 7 10:42:54 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01368
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:11 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07206; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:59 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804070042.UAA07206(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Is this another bug? What do you all think?
Ed G.
sim> att tm0 emutar.tap
TM: creating new file
sim> cont
ta: not found
# tar cvf /dev/rmt0 mysqrt.c
a mysqrt.c 1 blocks
# cd tmp
# tar vxf /dev/rmt0
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
...etc.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01382
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:25 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Apr 7 10:42:54 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01367
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07198; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:56 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804070042.UAA07198(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-396
Subject: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
--Message-Boundary-396
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
I wrote a little square root program in "C" to test the floating
point in Bob Supnik's emulator (see attached code). The program
works fine under Linux, but bombs on Bob's emulator, confirming
people's theory that the emulator has a floating point bug.
I used Newton's method for the algorithm and only uses add,
subtract, multiply and divide. The emulator produced identical
incorrect results for two different versions of the program one using
floats, the other doubles.
Here's what the program does on Bob Supnik's emulator:
# cc mysqrt.c
# a.out
Initial guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
Here's what the program does on Linux:
[root@oskar uv7]# gcc mysqrt.c
[root@oskar uv7]# a.out
Initial guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 1.5000000000000000
guess: 1.4166666666666667
guess: 1.4142156862745099
guess: 1.4142135623746899
My square root is: 1.4142135623746899
--Message-Boundary-396
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.
The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
---- File information -----------
File: MYSQRT.C
Date: 6 Apr 1998, 23:50
Size: 413 bytes.
Type: Program-source
--Message-Boundary-396
Content-type: Application/Octet-stream; name="MYSQRT.C"; type=Program-source
Content-disposition: attachment; filename="MYSQRT.C"
Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
I2RlZmluZSBQUkUgZG91YmxlCgpQUkUgYWJzdihuKQogIFBSRSBuOwp7CiAgaWYgKG4gPCAw
KSB7CiAgICByZXR1cm4gLW47CiAgfQogIGVsc2UgewogICAgcmV0dXJuIG47CiAgfQp9CgpQ
UkUgbXlzcXJ0KG4pClBSRSBuOwp7ClBSRSBnLCBlcnI7CgpnID0gbi8yOwplcnIgPSBuLzFl
NjsKCnByaW50ZigiUHJlY2lzaW9uOiAgUFJFXG4iKTsKCnByaW50ZigiSW5pdGlhbCBndWVz
czogJS4xNmZcblxuIiwgZyk7CiB3aGlsZSAoYWJzdihnKmctbikgPj0gZXJyKSB7CiAgIGcg
PSAoZypnK24pLygyKmcpOwogICBwcmludGYoImd1ZXNzOiAlLjE2ZlxuIiwgZyk7CiB9CnJl
dHVybihnKTsKfQoKbWFpbigpCnsKUFJFIG4gPSAyLjA7CgogcHJpbnRmKCJcbk15IHNxdWFy
ZSByb290IGlzOiAlLjE2ZlxuIiwgbXlzcXJ0KG4pKTsKfQo=
--Message-Boundary-396--
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01389
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:29 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Apr 7 10:42:54 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01369
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:11 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07210 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:43:02 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point?
I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code
'17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix
executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather
heavily on floating point.
Are my results in error?
Here's what I found in the bin directory:
awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
diff 277
pr 275
sed 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
od 151
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
mv 134
newgrp 133
factor 132
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
tail 103
sleep 101
stty 98
touch 96
tty 91
split 90
uniq 89
rev 86
chown 84
kill 83
yes 79
tr 58
sp 57
test 53
basename 34
tee 24
echo 4
sync 2
u3b2 0
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01416
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:45:22 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 10:46:42 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01411
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:45:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00659; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070046.KAA00659(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
To: johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:42 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804070035.KAA11206(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> from John Holden at "Apr 7, 98 10:35:46 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by John Holden:
> Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
> with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
> know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail
already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn
in my mail box until Tuesday next week.
For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives.
It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze'
of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then.
Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge
from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to
create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the
volunteers to burn and mail you a CD.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01435
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:49:50 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 10:51:05 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01430
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:49:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00727; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:51:05 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070051.KAA00727(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:51:05 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804070042.UAA07206(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 08:42:54 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Ed G.:
> Is this another bug? What do you all think?
Is your tape just a raw format tape, or are you using the 32-bit
preamble/postambles to indicate the record/block sizes?
Read the tail-end of simh_doc.txt for details.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01897
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:21:27 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Apr 7 14:21:15 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01892
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:21:20 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12310;
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:16 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA07098;
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:15 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980407135115.06874(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:15 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
References: <199804070035.KAA11206(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> <199804070046.KAA00659(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199804070046.KAA00659(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 10:46:42AM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 10:46:42 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by John Holden:
>> Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
>> with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
>> know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
>
> I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail
> already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn
> in my mail box until Tuesday next week.
>
> For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives.
> It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze'
> of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then.
>
> Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge
> from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to
> create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the
> volunteers to burn and mail you a CD.
Anybody who gets a tape from me will get the latest version. The same
will probably apply to CDs if I ever get round to installing a burner.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01912
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:23:27 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Apr 7 14:23:13 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01907
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:23:22 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12314;
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:14 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA07106;
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:13 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:13 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:42:54PM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, 6 April 1998 at 20:42:54 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point?
>
> I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code
> '17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix
> executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather
> heavily on floating point.
>
> Are my results in error?
How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02164
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:49:58 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 15:51:21 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02159
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:49:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01173 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:21 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070551.PAA01173(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Receipt of 12 License Details
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:21 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias,
Paul P, Paul V, Steven
Cheers,
Warren
P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 3, 5:55, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
> > (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE,
etc).
>
> But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI
> (and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type
> of GCR.
Yes, I didn't mean to imply you could have any mixture. It's always irritated
me that I can't read 800bpi tapes on my 1600bpi drive simply because it doesn't
have the (optional) NRZI board.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA19782
for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:30:31 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 4 06:28:54 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19776
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:30:24 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25193;
Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:54 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Tim -
> From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
> On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled
He's in the "dairy business"? :-) :-)
> with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
> 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
> operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
language version) program.
Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real
11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec.
I/O operations are faster but I suspect a some of that is
due to Ultra-Wide Barracuda drives vs. HP 3724 and an Emulex UC08.
> than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
> priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running
the dhrystone program I see:
Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results
Please increase number of runs
EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36
seconds.
> The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about
I recall when the DEC rep here brought in one of the first 150mhz
Alpha systems. Thought it was awesome that a machine could do a
3 phase build of GCC in about 1 hour. Ummm, today a PPro can do it
in about 15 or 20 minutes ;)
Other benchmarks of possible interest:
A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
11/44 9min 20sec
11/73 9min 33sec
11/93 6min 43sec
emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
4 sec)
the 44 and 73 are suprisingly close because the 44 was hobbled with
RA81s on a UDA50 while the 73 had a HP3724S on Emulex UC08. Alas,
the RA81 died so I no longer have a 44 to test with (until I get a RA9x
or something myself since the support department refused to do it).
Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though
the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22011
for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:40:52 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sat Apr 4 23:40:02 1998
Received: from Radha.DoCS.UU.SE (Radha.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.99])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22006
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:40:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Radha.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA10577; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:40:05 +0200
Received: from localhost by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2)
with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA15396; Sat, 4 Apr 98 15:40:03 +0200
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:40:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
In-Reply-To: <199803172059.HAA01365(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980404153822.15388A-100000(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > > P.S. As I suspected and feared,
> >
> > % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11
> >
> > indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu,
> > CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler.
>
> So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
> for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C
compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11
though...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA22903
for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 05:16:13 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Apr 5 05:16:02 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA22898
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.au>; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 05:16:07 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA21693; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:16:03 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804041916.AA21693(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980404153822.15388A-100000(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> from "Johnny Billquist" at Apr 4, 98 03:40:02 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
> > for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
>
> Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C
> compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11
> though...)
Yes, it does run under RT-11 (that's the only version I've used.)
But I've no idea of the lineage of that particular compiler - it wouldn't
surprise me to find out that it was derived from V6/V7 in some way.
(Though clearly with entirely new run-time libraries.)
As long as we're on the subject: has anyone succesfully cross-compiled
using 'gcc' on some non-11 platform to produce PDP-11 object code, which
they than succesfully ran? While the compiler seems to work fine, I've
run into confusion when trying to use the *.h files from 2.11BSD to
do something useful.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23137
for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:43:45 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Apr 5 06:43:25 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA23132
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.au>; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:43:40 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA19446; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:43:25 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804042043.AA19446(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:43:25 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 3, 98 12:28:54 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
> > 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
> > operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
>
> Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
> gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
> language version) program.
>
> Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real
> 11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec.
I suspect that the emulator will be quite slow on any math-heavy
benchmark - and your observations confirm this. Doesn't Bob's
emulator do the FP operations by converting everything to IEEE
and back for each and every operand?
> > than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
> > priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
>
> The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running
> the dhrystone program I see:
>
> Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results
> Please increase number of runs
>
> EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36
> seconds.
On my cow-oreker's Pentium Pro, the line-time clock under Bob's emulator
appears to work fine, but it "misses" a lot of ticks when running on
my 7-year-old Alpha. I've never looked at the logic to figure out exactly
what is going on, but I suspect that I couldn't emulate the interrupt/
priority structure any better than Bob's already done!
> Other benchmarks of possible interest:
>
> A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
>
> 11/44 9min 20sec
> 11/73 9min 33sec
> 11/93 6min 43sec
> emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec
For most "real" PDP-11 emulation uses this is probably a more realistic
benchark than the Dhrystone. I know lots of currently-being-used-and-
maintained PDP-11 applications, and none of them are heavy on FP - all
the FP-specific stuff got migrated to a faster machine the instant
the faster machine became available. (You'd be amazed at the awful
machines that I've seen people use *just* because it did their integral
faster. Farms of I860's and I960's were the rage a couple of years ago,
and boy was that an icky development platform.)
> (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
> 4 sec)
The line-time-clock on Bob's emulator doesn't necessarily have anything
to do with reality. On my cow-orker's 200 MHz pentium Pro, it ticks
about twice as fast as real time, but on my Alpha it'll often not tick
at all if there's something else keeping the (emulated) CPU busy. I
think other emulators (like John Wilson's) put more emphasis on real-time
applications and probably emulate the line-time-clock more faithfully.
> Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though
> the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower.
Again, I think the C recompile is probably a better benchmark - unless
someone's specifically interested primarily in FP emulation, which I think
is likely to be the exception.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23510
for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:29:27 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Apr 5 09:30:24 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23505
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:29:22 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA28084; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:30:24 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804042330.JAA28084(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: licenses mail today
To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:30:24 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980403095446.48700(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 3, 98 09:54:46 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Dion Johnson:
> I think I can get the licenses mailed today to the licensees.
Ta!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27137
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:45:53 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 09:45:32 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27132
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:45:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10674;
Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:34 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA27639;
Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:32 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980406091532.27504(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:32 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com> <19980403172621.30485(a)papillon.lemis.com> <grog(a)lemis.com> <9804031317.ZM14102(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <9804031317.ZM14102(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>; from Pete Turnbull on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 12:17:19PM +0000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>
>>> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
>>> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
>>> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
>>> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
>>> some day as I did with the 11/73).
>>
>> Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
>> slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
>> anybody have some benchmarks?
>
> I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
> Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
> various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
> post the source.
I'd be interested.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27211
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:17:22 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 10:16:56 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27206
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:17:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10698;
Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:58 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA27787;
Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:56 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980406094656.23449(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:56 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 12:28:54PM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:28:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
> gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
> language version) program.
>
> Other benchmarks of possible interest:
>
> A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
>
> 11/44 9min 20sec
> 11/73 9min 33sec
> 11/93 6min 43sec
> emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
> 4 sec)
>
I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
/usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
/usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
/usr/src/lib/cpp 55.6 real 41.9 user 13.3 sys
date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27499
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:59:29 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> > the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> > an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> > 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> > some day as I did with the 11/73).
>
> Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
> slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
> anybody have some benchmarks?
I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
post the source.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18297
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:51 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 3, 15:41, Greg Lehey wrote:
> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
> On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> >> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
> >> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
> >> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
> >> there is a bug.
I'd be very surprised if factor used FP. My 7th Edition system's offline ATM,
so I can't check the source.
> > More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> > Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> > private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> > I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> > are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> > the FP registers?
Dunno, but I'd be surprised.
> applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet
> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is
> unlikely.
Well, it is one of the areas that causes trouble on different flavours of
PDP-11. Both DEC and Unix O/S's had all sorts of games being played in the
trap recovery code, according to which processor the O/S thought it was running
under. But AFAIK, that code only gets called if an instruction is aborted,
which I wouldn't expect would happen exactly the same way every time factor was
run (but again, I'm speculating without having looked at the code).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18305
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:55 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Apr 2, 22:15, Ed G. wrote:
> Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
> Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
> hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
> it were a disk.
Yes, in the sense that you could perform random-access operations on it. I
used a PDP-8 that had twin DECtape instead of disks. It supported 4(?)
teletypes in a multi-user environment. But DECtape was not 1/2" tape, nor did
it use reels like the ones that later became standard.
> How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
> does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> etc.?
Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
(80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc).
There are different standard lengths too: 600' 1200' 2400'.
> I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
> For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
> this possible do you think?
Shouldn't be hard, unless it's suffered from print-through after 18 years.
It's probably 800bpi (NRZI) or 1600bpi (PE). Whether you can understand the
contents depends on the format of the data, of course.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18540
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:50:27 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 23:50:14 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18535
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:50:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA00796; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:50:14 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031350.AA00796(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:50:14 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199804030315.WAA06617(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Apr 2, 98 10:15:08 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > Mag tape has
> > several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
>
> In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape
> drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it
> about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big,
> complicated computer systems?
You have to realize that disk storage on mainframe systems in the
1960's was usually quite small. Almost all "large-scale" processing
was from tape drive(s) to tape drive(s). If you find a really good
reference on sorting and collating (Knuth, for example) a lot of
effort is made on doing things with as little core and disk space
as possible. Most of these methods are still used today on really
large data sets (for example, FFT's on multi-gigabyte data sets
which are never entirely in memory.)
> > the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
> > breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
> > lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
> > backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
> > the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
> > same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
> > timers.
>
> Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
> hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
> it were a disk.
DECtape was very much different from other tape media of the time.
You didn't treat it as a disk in just some ways, you treated it as
a disk in all ways.
At the time of DECtape, the most inexpensive removable disk media was
the RK05 DECpack, which cost about $150-$200 per platter. DECtape was
created as a more affordable "disk-like" removable media so that
each user could carry his files around with him.
> > Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
> > the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
> > used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
> > While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
> > device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
> > capability was available.
>
> How much data can magtape hold?
A 1600 bpi 2400 foot 9-track holds about 40 Megabytes if you use long
blocks. Other more recent magtapes (i.e. DLT's) hold 40-100 Gigabytes per
reel/cartridge. Some specialized optical tape media hold Terabytes
per reel.
> If magtape was a portable media,
> does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> etc.?
Absolutely. There are ANSI standards for all of the above. Despite
what others claim, interchangability was always rather straightforward,
and the worst problems are the "concepts" not supported by some operating
systems (i.e. Unix lacks file support for anything other than a file that's
just a stream-of-bytes).
> I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
> For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
> this possible do you think?
Absolutely. Part of my current profession is reading 9- (and 7-) tracks
that are up to 35 years old.
> > When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
> > involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
> > usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
> > of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
These uses aren't just historical - many of us still deal with datasets
that are Terabytes in size and which cannot be disk (or core) resident.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18575
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:55:45 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 23:55:06 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18565
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:55:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA32661; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:55:06 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031355.AA32661(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:55:06 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9804031301.ZM14090(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 3, 98 12:01:48 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
> > does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> > the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> > etc.?
>
> Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
> (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc).
But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI
(and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type
of GCR.
In the 7-track world, recording was almost always NRZI. One manufacturer
did make a 7-track PE system, but it was never a standard.
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18630
for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:00:54 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Apr 4 00:00:44 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA18625
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.au>; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:00:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA23631; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:00:44 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031400.AA23631(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:00:44 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 2, 98 11:50:23 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> some day as I did with the 11/73).
On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled
with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
works. And speed also depends on whether the MMU
is enabled or not, too.
The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about
a third the speed of a real 11/73 (slow enough that a lot of 60 Hz
line-time-clock interrupts go uncounted under RT-11, for example!)
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA19270
for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 04:25:23 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
<hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
<it were a disk.
Dectape was an attempt to achive moderate amount of storage at low cost
with good reliability. It's stop, turnaround time was poor but the cost
was very low. It was preceeded by linktape which was very much similar.
<How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
varies with the size of the reel and the density it was recorded at.
<does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
<the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
<etc.?
To a point.
<I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
<For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
<this possible do you think?
Highly likely if you can find someone with a drive.
<Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape
<drives?
Thats a typical one. Sometimes 4 drives were used plus maybe a disk
system. Two for source material, one for intermediate results, one or
more for programs and the last for final results. Some machines were
very limited in the local memory they had so programs often were broken
into small modules and loaded (chained) as needed on the fly. Imagine
processing 500k of data in a 16k memory where a portion was also used
for program code.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17456
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:08:58 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Apr 3 16:41:11 1998
Received: from mailext02.compaq.com (mailext02.compaq.com [207.18.199.33])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17451
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:08:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.34]) by mailext02.compaq.com
via sendmail with smtp
id <m0yL0TQ-0005L4C(a)mailext02.compaq.com>
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:01:12 -0600 (CST)
(Smail-3.2.0.93 1997-Apr-12 #2 built 1997-Dec-21)
Received: from papillon.lemis.com(really [202.48.19.19]) by mail.compaq.com
via sendmail with smtp
id <m0yL0ay-00059KC(a)mail.compaq.com>
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 98 01:09:00 -0600 (CST)
(/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.10 built 18-dec-97)
Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12)
id PAA00975; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:41:15 +0900 (JST)
Message-ID: <19980403154111.63328(a)papillon.lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:41:11 +0900
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Cc: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Thu, Apr 02, 1998 at 04:00:40PM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
>> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
>> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
>> there is a bug.
>
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet
unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is
unlikely. vi works as well as vi ever works.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17551
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:50:55 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 3 17:50:23 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17545
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:50:49 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA10664;
Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:50:23 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:50:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog(a)lemis.com, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greg -
> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to.
> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely.
It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause
similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory
wasn't failing ;).
Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy
"hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final
arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :)
I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they
arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler
or kernel recompile troubles)?
Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
some day as I did with the 11/73).
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17660
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:37:02 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Apr 3 18:26:21 1998
Received: from mailext02.compaq.com (mailext02.compaq.com [207.18.199.33])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA17655
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:36:56 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.34]) by mailext02.compaq.com
via sendmail with smtp
id <m0yL1ql-0005DcC(a)mailext02.compaq.com>
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:29:23 -0600 (CST)
(Smail-3.2.0.93 1997-Apr-12 #2 built 1997-Dec-21)
Received: from papillon.lemis.com(really [202.48.19.19]) by mail.compaq.com
via sendmail with smtp
id <m0yL1yM-00059UC(a)mail.compaq.com>
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 98 02:37:14 -0600 (CST)
(/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.10 built 18-dec-97)
Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12)
id RAA01094; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:26:22 +0900 (JST)
Message-ID: <19980403172621.30485(a)papillon.lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:26:21 +0900
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca,
wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Thu, Apr 02, 1998 at 11:50:23PM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
>> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
>
> AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to.
It's the one I've been using all along. I never used an older version.
>> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
>> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
>> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely.
>
> It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause
> similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory
> wasn't failing ;).
Reasonable assumption.
> Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy
> "hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final
> arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :)
Sure, that makes sense. I did too, but I couldn't see anything obvious.
> I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they
> arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler
> or kernel recompile troubles)?
Well, not quite. I finally got back to the real work I should have
been doing, and I haven't had time to look at it again since. But
they went into hiding when I tried to show them to Hartmut :-) I think
we still have a problem somewhere. BTW, Hartmut had already upgraded
to PL 40? before I tried to start, so I'm still not completely
convinced that it's not something I did wrong in upgrading.
> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> some day as I did with the 11/73).
Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
anybody have some benchmarks?
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18306
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:57 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: Early DEC support for UNIX?
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
<> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
<> Is this an early Ultrix?
<
<
< I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely
<done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
<had prebuilt kernels as follows :-
So happens I have a tk50 tape labeled ULRIX-11 X3.1 27-jul-87.
Never looked at it as its apparently a tarball and all my systems with
tk50 to date are rt-11/rsts or VMS. I keep meaning to look at it with
the VAX ULTRIX4.2 VS2000.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA13686
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:40:53 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 08:41:49 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13681
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:40:49 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12757 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:41:49 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804022241.IAA12757(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Ultrix for PDP-11
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:41:49 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Briefly, Jean tells me the stuff I saw on his web page (early DEC support)
is called UNIX V7M RELEASE 2.1. There's a copy of _a_ V7M in the archive, but
I've asked Jean to look at his tape so we can compare contents.
John Holden, as you saw, also has a tape with lots of pre-built kernels.
I've asked John if we can get a copy of this tape too.
A few people mentioned Ultrix for the PDP-11. This is probably a dumb
question, but I assume DEC still owns these systems. Would it be possible
(and/or worth it) to ask DEC to make it freely available to licensees?
I guess we could ask Bob Supnik about it.
Thanks again,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13909
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:58:51 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 09:59:47 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13904
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:58:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12908 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:48 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804022359.JAA12908(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Ultrix: reply from Bob Supnik
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:47 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I've just received this reply from Bob Supnik on PDP-11 Ultrix:
> If you can clear the other license issues (SCO's) Digital would have no
> problem giving a free license to its value add, whatever that was.
>
> That is, if the user can obtain a valid license from SCO, either binary
> or source, Digital will agree to license its portion at no cost under
> existing terms.
I asked him if DEC would permit us to distribute Ultrix to LICENSEES ONLY,
if some license agreement was also distributed. Awaiting a reply....
Warren
P.S Ken, Allison, can you send in some tape images??? Thanks 8-)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA13931
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:02:59 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 10:00:40 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA13926
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:02:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA00122; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:00:40 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:00:40 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Mar 28, 98 11:50:54 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
> there is a bug.
More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
the FP registers?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA13973
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:15:18 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 10:16:15 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13968
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:15:14 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12956 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:16:15 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804030016.KAA12956(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:16:15 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Apr 2, 98 04:00:40 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Tim Shoppa:
> > I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator [breaking factor(6)]
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
Don't know about vi FP, I could go have a look at the source. No, vi
doesn't appear to use any floating point.
I asked Bob about the factor(6) bug in my Ultrix mail, he didn't mention
it, but he might at some stage. I'll keep people informed.
As for vi, what was the abnormal behaviour?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14061
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:52:23 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 3 10:50:26 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14056
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:52:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07798
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:50:26 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:50:26 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804030050.QAA07798(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
To the best of my knowledge 'vi' does NOT use any FP at all (other than
the usual 32 bit arithmetic that all programs do if they do any 'long'
arithmetic).
My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is
a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via
'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand
downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's
the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's
a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems
eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction
restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other
systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered
problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi'
to run would be very problematic.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14110
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:59:44 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 11:00:34 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14105
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:59:40 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13088; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:35 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804030100.LAA13088(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:34 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804030050.QAA07798(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Apr 2, 98 04:50:26 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Steven M. Schultz:
[re bugs in Bob Sunik's PDP emulator]
> My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is
> a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via
> 'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand
> downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's
> the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's
> a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems
> eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction
> restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other
> systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered
> problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi'
> to run would be very problematic.
>
> Steven
The 2bsd distribution in the archive comes with an early non-overlayed vi
which compiles on V7. However, I haven't got it to work correctly yet. I
suspect that the /etc/termcap entry I was using is not recognised by this
early version of termlib.
This is all irrelevant to the emulator bug, BTW.
Steven, have you mentioned your hypothesis to Bob?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14677
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:15:33 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri Apr 3 12:15:08 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14672
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:15:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-06.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.102]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id WAA06617; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:15:08 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199804030315.WAA06617(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:15:08 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
In-reply-to: <199803251433.AA22737(a)world.std.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Mag tape has
> several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape
drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it
about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big,
complicated computer systems?
> the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
> breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
> lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
> backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
> the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
> same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
> timers.
Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
it were a disk.
> Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
> the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
> used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
> While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
> device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
> capability was available.
How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
etc.?
I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
this possible do you think?
> When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
> involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
> usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
> of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape
drives?
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16168
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:44:37 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
SCO Licenses-where are they?
by Ed G.
Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet?
I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard
a thing.
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA10655
for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:13:24 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 2 14:14:09 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10650
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:13:20 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11901; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:14:09 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804020414.OAA11901(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: SCO Licenses-where are they?
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:14:09 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804020315.WAA25507(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 1, 98 10:15:20 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Ed G.:
> Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet?
> I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard
> a thing.
> Ed
This is the word from Dion, as at 1st April:
Well, we have 12 licenses accumulated here and I haven't got any
"system" set up to deal with these. I will probably just send
you a list of the peoples' names and addresses by postal mail.
Hope that's not too primitive.
I asked if he could send me the list via PGP email, but he countered
that they were all on paper, and he didn't have the time to send me the
list. However, he did say:
I will just drop them into a DHL or similar express shipment
thing. Hopefully in a day or two.
Now, I'm not sure if this means:
+ he will ship the licenses in a day or two,
+ he will ship me the list in a day or two,
+ it will only take a day or two for the list to reach me.
However, the worst-case scenario is that the licenses will be posted
in a day or two, and they should reach you quickly after that.
I checked my bank account, and SCO removed $100 on the 24th March.
I take this to indicate that I am now licensed. I don't know if this
is of much help, though.
I am waiting in anticipation, as we all are.
BTW First person to announce their license in the mailing list wins.
Wins what, I haven't a clue ;-)
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10899
for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:35:13 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 2 15:36:04 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10894
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:35:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12273 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:36:04 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804020536.PAA12273(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Early DEC support for UNIX?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:36:04 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I was just browsing for web pages related to PDP-11s and UNIX, and I found:
http://idefix-45.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/museum/pdp/unix-E.html
which has a most interesting paragraph at the bottom:
Officially Digital Equipment did not support Unix. With the
maintenance technicians we made the agreement that the hardware was
OK, when their test programs did not produce error messages.
At the end of 1983 we found out that within Digital there was a
very small group which distributed Unix V7 with support and drivers
for all PDP 11 models and devices. Sources were distributed freely to
all source licensees of Bell labs. From then on we have used that
distribution.
Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
Is this an early Ultrix?
I've mailed the maintainer of the web page in question for more information.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA11109
for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:05:05 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Thu Apr 2 17:04:51 1998
Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11104
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:05:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from johnh@localhost)
by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25088
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:04:51 +1000
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:04:51 +1000
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199804020704.RAA25088(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Early DEC support for UNIX?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
> Is this an early Ultrix?
I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely
done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
had prebuilt kernels as follows :-
CPU Disk Tape
11/23 RL02 TU10
11/34 RK06 TE10
11/40 RK07 TU16
11/60 RM02 TE16
11/44 RM03 TS11
11/45 RP03
11/70 RP04
RP05
RP06
I have a 1600bpi tape, but haven't tried to read it lately.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12448
for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:54:20 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
Hi, Ed.
> I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
> to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
> all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
> is probably to blame?
Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz?
> 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
> PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
Ah, I meant to mail that to the list. No matter, it got to where it was most
needed, obviously :-)
I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some
debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the
debugger, man 1 adb for details).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02487
for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Mar 28 10:50:54 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02482
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:48 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05410; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST)
Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803270628.ZM27283(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 27, 98 06:28:52 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Pete Turnbull:
> Hi, Ed.
>
> > I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
> > to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
> > all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
> > is probably to blame?
>
> Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz?
>
> > 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
> > PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
> I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some
> debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the
> debugger, man 1 adb for details).
I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
there is a bug.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA05778
for pups-liszt; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:52:20 +1000 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Mar 29 09:41:33 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05773
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:52:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA06132 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:52:45 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05734
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:41:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA06110 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:41:33 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803282341.JAA06110(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Digest of PUPS mail available
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:41:33 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
The PUPS mailing list seems to be getting busier. For those `lurkers' who
want to follow the list, but don't want to be pestered by incoming email
every 10 minutes, I've set up a digest form of the list.
The digest will be sent out every Monday and Thursday, or if the incoming
e-mail exceeds 40K in total.
To get the digest version, and to unsubscribe from the normal list, send
e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the commands in the message body:
subscribe pups-digest
unsubscribe pups
You still need to send mail to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au for it to go to
the PUPS list and to be included in the digest.
Warren
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
<be good as it gives better compression results.
The question is why? Generally compression is a diminishing returns for
computational effort with 80% for the first 10% effort. I can see having
it if needed to gain access to software and the current platform is the
only one.
For sim to hardware transfers simple works better...
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23282
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:30 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 07:55:36 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23277
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:27 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03217 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:36 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252155.IAA03217(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:36 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803252150.NAA10104(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Mar 25, 98 01:50:07 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Chris Drake:
> >UNIX on a Microprocessor
>
> I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single-
> address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like,
> pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart
> into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally
> froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though.
> (This was around 76/77, as I recall).
Yep, it's in the archive!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23322
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:04:52 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Thu Mar 26 07:56:05 1998
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [193.195.0.154])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA23317
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:04:44 +1100 (EST)
Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by post.mail.demon.net
id aa1007927; 25 Mar 98 21:57 GMT
Message-ID: <0S+aPCA11XG1EwK5(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:56:05 +0000
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
In-Reply-To: <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>In article by Allison J Parent:
>> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
>> space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
>> decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
>>
>> Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
>> words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
>
>Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
>be good as it gives better compression results.
>
> Warren
I looked at this several years ago and gave up at the save point as
Warren. I looked at compress using 16 bits and hit the same sort of
constructs. After a bit of thinking I believe there may be a way round
it but at the time I didn't know the algorithms used in compress or gzip
so didn't try playing.
The problem is that the compression algorithm needs a 64k space to do
all of its sums in, don't ask me why, if someone could tell us the
algorithm them I would understand a lot better.
These are defined as 64k address spaces which the data page isn't
holding cos they don't fit. If you write a virtual mem system then this
will work. This causes problems in the standalone world obviously but
steve wrote a vm lookalike for 2.11 that uses files, yes a lump of real
mem aka the partition concept with movable windows in RSX would be nice
but we can't have everything, but compress and maybe gip should be able
to be cooked into using such a system for vm. This would be slow but
what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that
would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the
system to install?.
Cheers
Robin
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23342
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:50 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 08:07:35 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23337
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:46 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03305 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:35 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252207.JAA03305(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:35 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <0S+aPCA11XG1EwK5(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Mar 25, 98 09:56:05 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Robin Birch:
[ not being able to run gzip on a PDP-11 ]
> This would be slow but
> what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that
> would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the
> system to install?.
You're right I think. At least compress -b12 works, and as you say, a bit
of extra wait isn't going to hurt too much.
Peter Chubb seems interested in fitting gunzip into 64K. I'll see how he
goes with it.
Thanks all for your comments,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23554
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:29:54 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 08:30:00 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23549
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:29:50 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03395 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:30:00 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252230.JAA03395(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Available: tool to write disk images to PDP-11
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:30:00 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Ok,
I debugged the thing yesterday, it works well. If you want to write
a PDP-11 disk image to a real PDP-11, you might like to look in:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver
and at the file zcat.README there.
Current disk and tapes supported:
hp: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks.
rp: RP03 disks.
rk: RK05 disks.
rl: RL01 and RL02 disks.
ht: TU16 or TE16 tape drive.
tm: TU10 tape drive.
vt: The Virtual Tape drive.
You can download from any tape to any disk. The Virtual Tape drive allows
you to download the image over a KL11 at 9,600 baud. Any type of disk image
can be downloaded, not just Unix ones.
You will need compress(1). And a bit of patience.
Let's hope someone tries this out!
Ciao,
Warren
P.S I plan on migrating to the 2.11BSD standalone stuff, which supports
more tape drives and disk drives. Sometime.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24607
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:21:30 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au> Thu Mar 26 14:21:00 1998
Received: from suede.sw.oz.au (firewall-user(a)gw.softway.com.au [203.31.96.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24602
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:21:23 +1100 (EST)
Received: from bookworm.softway.com.au (root(a)bookworm.sw.oz.au [192.41.203.51])
by suede.sw.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14866
for <pups(a)minnie.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:21:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: by bookworm.softway.com.au (Smail3.1.29.1 #4)
id m0yI3EB-000FlbC; Thu, 26 Mar 98 14:21 +1000
Message-Id: <m0yI3EB-000FlbC(a)bookworm.softway.com.au>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 14:21 +1000
From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Progress on zcat
Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023.
X-Face: .slVUC18R`%{j(W3ztQe~*ATzet;h`*Wv33MZ]*M,}9AP<`+C=U)c#NzI5vK!0^d#6:<_`a
{#.<}~(T^aJ~]-.C'p~saJ7qZXP-$AY==]7,9?WVSH5sQ}g3,8j>u%(a)f$/Z6,WR7*E~BFY.Yjw,H6<
F.cEDj2$S:kO2+-5<]afj@kC!:uw\(<>lVpk)lPZs+2(=?=D/TZPG+P9LDN#1RRUPxdX
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Well...
my cut-down zcat now works under Linux, and compiles and links
cleanly under v7 on the simulator. But the semantics are
wrong!
Big problem is the lack of unsigned char and unsigned long
types.
I'm gradually going through and finding places where left
shifts, or sign extensions are happening, and masking them
explicitly.
I'm almost sure that at UNSW we had a C compiler on Unix V7 that had
an unsigned long data type...
Anyway, there's progress. And if it all goes OK, then
on machines that have separate I&D spaces, the resulting zcat
will be compatible with gzip everywhere.
Peter C
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29445
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:51:52 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri Mar 27 12:51:31 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29440
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:51:43 +1100 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-04.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.68]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id WAA01451 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:51:32 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199803270351.WAA01451(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:51:31 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
As you know, I wrote this list recently about a bug in Bob Supnik's
emulator which manifests when running factor (1).
I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
is probably to blame?
Here's what I've learned so far:
1. factor on Supnik's emulator fails most of the time (see below for
examples).
2. factor works fine on Ersatz-11
2. On the off-chance that I munged the disk images and somehow
corrupted factor, I reextracted virgin images from the tar ball.
factor still fails while running on Supnik's emulator.
3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
Here's what factor does on Supnik's emulator for a variety of values:
factor 6
2
3
17
17 etc.
factor 257
263
263 etc.
factor 263
269
269 etc.
factor 1009 (works correctly)
1009
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29824
for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:28:35 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<There are certain areas of Unix that don't seem quite "done" to me.
<Printing comes to mind (compare Unix benign neglect with Windows'
<universal printer driver).
Most of magtapes short commings under unix are common across most OSs
and are assignable to the characterisitcs of the medium. Mag tape has
several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
timers.
Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
capability was available.
When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
FYI the idea of tar files had spilled over to CP/M (8080, z80) systems
back in the 80s for distribution sets. It was done usually by creating
an archive set of compressed files (.arc, .ark, .lbr). to get the most
out of limited space of floppies (under 300k) of the time and to keep
programs set and sources together.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22183
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:04:46 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Thu Mar 26 02:03:59 1998
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22178
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:04:37 +1100 (EST)
Received: from cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk (cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.50])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10436;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:04:00 GMT
Received: (tfb@localhost) by cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA13855; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:03:59 GMT
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:03:59 GMT
Message-Id: <199803251603.QAA13855(a)cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: haba(a)pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth),
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Re: What's TENIX??
In-Reply-To: <199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <199803190143.CAA28649(a)pancake.pdc.kth.se>
<199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Harald Barth:
>> One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
>> Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
>> LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
>> Controller with
>> 8'' floppy
>> 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
>> Controller with
>> 10 ttys
> Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
> mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
> Any ideas, people??
I remember this. Somewhere I worked as a student there was a
tektronix box which supported some kind of microcontroller development
system and/or and in-circuit emulator (for things like 8048 / 8051,
though I think it had personality modules). It was a box which was
known to be a PDP11, and had a couple of tek terminals on it, probably
another box with stuff to support the emulators/PROM blowers & stuff,
and it ran Tenix. I had an account on it, but all I knew then was
that it was some kind of Unix. V7 sounds right -- perhaps it was
Tek's OEMd version of this, with (I guess) support for whatever HW
they had + some kind of development environment / x-assemblers & so
on. The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to
get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard
because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went
all funny about it.
--tim
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22240
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:30:47 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Thu Mar 26 02:32:14 1998
Received: from toes.its.uwlax.edu (toes.its.uwlax.edu [138.49.128.183])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA22235
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:30:41 +1100 (EST)
Received: by toes.its.uwlax.edu;
id AA01056; NX5.67e/42; Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:20 -0600
Message-Id: <9803251632.AA01056(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2.RR)
From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: oddball versions of Unix
Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hey,
does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to
get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago
on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it
woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord
machine....
Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of
the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful.
Regards,
Milo
---
Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
Information Technology Services -- Network Services
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22307
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:52:27 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se> Thu Mar 26 02:51:55 1998
Received: from pancake.pdc.kth.se (pancake.pdc.kth.se [130.237.221.163])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22302
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:52:20 +1100 (EST)
Received: from pancake.pdc.kth.se (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by pancake.pdc.kth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23470;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:52:00 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199803251652.RAA23470(a)pancake.pdc.kth.se>
To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: What's TENIX??
From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:03:59 GMT"
References: <199803251603.QAA13855(a)cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
X-Mailer: Mew version 1.54 on Emacs 20.2.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:51:55 +0100
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to
> get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard
> because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went
> all funny about it.
Oh yes, very common scenario. Booted just for fun, see below.
Harald.
Welcome to Tnix Version 2.1 (rev b) on an 11/73
We recommend that you check the file system after TNIX has been
restarted. ( Checking the file system takes about 5 minutes for a minimum
system of files, longer for more files. )
Do you want to check the file system at this time?
Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information : y
The standard TNIX syschk command reports any problems with
the file system, but does not fix them.
The Standalone Utilities syschk command reports any problems with the file
system, and queries you on how to fix the problems.
Which file system checker?
1) standard TNIX syschk (reports problems)
2) Standalone Utilities syschk (fixes problems)
Please enter a number: 1
checking /dev/rhd0:
...checking i-nodes and directory entries...
...checking tree structure...
...checking free list...
free list is ok. rebuild free list? (y or n): n
75349 total blocks in filesystem
0 bad blocks (0 percent)
44112 free blocks (58 percent)
22491 free i-nodes (89 percent)
TNIX shows the current date and time as
Sat Mar 22 23:31:31 MET 1997
If date and time is already correct, press RETURN.
Otherwise, you need to reenter the date.
The format for a date entry is [dd-mmm-yy] hh:mm[:ss]
Example: 22-jun-83 14:20
Please enter correct date: 25-mar-98 02:34
Wed Mar 25 02:34:51 MET 1998
Do you want to remain single user?
(Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : y
Now entering single-user mode. To exit from single-user mode,
enter CTRL-D.
#
Do you want to remain single user?
(Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : n
When you see the login prompt, you can enter your login name,
"manager", or "root".
login: your login name Logs you into your personal account. The account
must already have been created by the system
manager.
login: manager Displays information about common system manager
tasks, and information about the "root" account.
login: root Logs you in to the "root" account -- the account
used to maintain system files. As root, you have
full access to all files on the system, and no
restrictions as to what you can do with the files.
We recommend that you limit access to the root account,
and that you assign a password to the root account.
login: root
Password:
********************************************************************************
* *
* WELCOME TO TEKTRONIX *
* *
********************************************************************************
USERS ON THE SYSTEM:
ASSAR
HABA
MHO
IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS, DO NOT ASK HABA IF HE CAN HELP YOU
# ls -ltr
total 499
-rw------- 1 root 58740 Apr 10 1984 tnix.old
-rw------- 1 root 9852 Apr 10 1984 boot
drwxr-xr-x11 bin 176 Apr 10 1984 tek
-rw------- 1 root 57584 Apr 10 1984 TNIX.old
-rw------- 1 root 58740 Jun 20 1985 tnix
-rwx--x--x 1 root 57584 Nov 9 1985 TNIX
drwxr-xr-x 2 bin 736 Sep 23 1986 lib
-rw-r--r-- 1 root 1024 Oct 1 1986 .hp_memory
drwxrwxrwx 2 root 176 Jan 30 1987 lost+found
drwxr-xr-x 5 root 80 Sep 1 1992 home
drwxr-xr-x 7 bin 4336 Sep 1 1992 bin
drwxr-xr-x 2 root 928 Nov 5 1992 dev
drwxr-xr-x 2 root 80 Nov 5 1992 mnt
drwxrwxr-x 4 root 128 Apr 19 1993 vaxboot
drwxr-xr-x 4 bin 480 Mar 25 02:36 etc
drwxr-xr-x25 bin 416 Mar 25 02:36 usr
drwxrwxrwx 2 root 64 Mar 25 02:36 tmp
# shutdown
Wait for the message on the system console
saying it is all right to halt the system.
System may now be safely powered down or rebooted
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA22899
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:45:51 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Thu Mar 26 05:47:24 1998
Received: from toes.its.uwlax.edu (toes.its.uwlax.edu [138.49.128.183])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA22894
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:45:44 +1100 (EST)
Received: by toes.its.uwlax.edu;
id AA01217; NX5.67e/42; Wed, 25 Mar 98 13:47:26 -0600
Message-Id: <9803251947.AA01217(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2.RR)
From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 13:47:24 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
References: <9803251632.AA01056(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id GAA22895
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi,
The system I referred to below was described in:
Lycklama, H.
UNIX on a Microprocessor,
Bell System Technical Journal, Vol. 57, No. 6, July-August 1978, pp. 2087-2101
--Milo
Begin forwarded message:
>
>X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
>Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600
>To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Subject: oddball versions of Unix
>Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
>Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>
>Hey,
>
>does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to
>get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago
>on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it
>woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord
>machine....
>
>Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of
>the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful.
>
>
>Regards,
>Milo
>---
>Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
>Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
>Information Technology Services -- Network Services
>University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
>La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
>
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA23043
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:40 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 06:33:46 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23038
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:37 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03043 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:46 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:46 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803251433.AA22453(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 25, 98 09:33:18 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Allison J Parent:
> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
> space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
> decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
>
> Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
> words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
be good as it gives better compression results.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23256
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:52:38 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Chris Drake <Chris.Drake(a)Corp.Sun.COM> Thu Mar 26 07:50:07 1998
Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA23251
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:52:30 +1100 (EST)
Received: from Corp.Sun.COM ([129.145.35.78]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id NAA24729 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:51:35 -0800
Received: from rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM by Corp.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3)
id NAA20782; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:51:11 -0800
Received: from zatch by rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
id NAA10104; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:50:51 -0800
Message-Id: <199803252150.NAA10104(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:50:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Drake <Chris.Drake(a)Corp.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: Chris Drake <Chris.Drake(a)Corp.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-MD5: 4vG0cZlENp2tqeGyAF8ZKA==
X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.0 CDE Version 1.2 SunOS 5.6 sun4u sparc
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
>UNIX on a Microprocessor
I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single-
address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like,
pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart
into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally
froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though.
(This was around 76/77, as I recall).
- Chris
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23267
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:54:39 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
by allisonp＠world.std.com
I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21915
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:33:52 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator?
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Mar 25, 15:54, Greg Lehey wrote:
> Subject: Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator?
> On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which
> > seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on
> > a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens?
> >
> > On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the
> > prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s.
> I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator.
> In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD:
>
> [55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6
> 2
> 3
> [56] root-->
On my PDP-11/23 running 7th Edition, factor works fine:
$ factor 6
2
3
$
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21903
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:33:32 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 1 month
- 1
- 0
Re: V7 startup
by allisonp＠world.std.com
That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from
console boot dialog? The system boots RSTS and RT-11 packs. Is the boot
block munged/missing? I might add it boots fine using boot/foreign from
rt11.
It's a curiousity as having RT on floppy or HD is not a big thing for me.
But if it can be fixed that would be an improvement.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA26001
for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:17:50 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Mar 19 01:17:18 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA25996
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:17:44 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA25259; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:17:18 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803181517.AA25259(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: V7 startup
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:17:18 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803180459.AA20873(a)world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 17, 98 11:59:06 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from
> console boot dialog? The system boots RSTS and RT-11 packs. Is the boot
> block munged/missing? I might add it boots fine using boot/foreign from
> rt11.
The 11/73 firmware bootstrap expects the boot block to conform to certain
standards specified by DEC in the early/mid-80's. In particular, the
bootstrap must begin with a NOP, but there are some other requirements
I don't recall at the moment.
The toggle-in bootstraps that DEC supplied didn't do any such checks (who'd
want to toggle tha check in everytime, anyway?), they just read block 0 to
location 0 and jump to it (well, some also assume things about the SP
going somewhere reasonable, and sometimes certain register locations set
to certain things.) And RT-11's BOOT/FOR doesn't make any such checks,
either.
> It's a curiousity as having RT on floppy or HD is not a big thing for me.
> But if it can be fixed that would be an improvement.
You can either rewrite the 11/73 firmware to not do the check, or you can
rewrite the V7 boot block so it conforms to DEC's standard. The RL02
is a particularly stupid device and requires an inordinately large bootstrap,
so there may not be a lot of free room in the V7 boot block. You can also
stick a "toggle-in" RL02 bootstrap into RAM via ODT and execute that. But
I've decded that for me, the solution of RT's BOOT/FOR is the best, just
as you seem to have :-).
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28048
for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:26 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 19 12:27:07 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28040
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:21 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04067; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:07 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: What's TENIX??
To: haba(a)pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:07 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199803190143.CAA28649(a)pancake.pdc.kth.se> from Harald Barth at "Mar 19, 98 02:43:13 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Harald Barth:
> One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
> Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
> LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
> Controller with
> 8'' floppy
> 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
> Controller with
> 10 ttys
Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
Any ideas, people??
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28280
for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:44:01 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Sheila H.//Elwood Blues" <shsrms(a)erols.com> Thu Mar 19 13:40:55 1998
Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28275
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:43:43 +1100 (EST)
Received: from LOCALNAME (207-172-239-202.s11.as8.rkv.erols.com [207.172.239.202])
by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA09738;
Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:41:51 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <351093C7.5B96(a)erols.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:55 -0500
From: "Sheila H.//Elwood Blues" <shsrms(a)erols.com>
Reply-To: shsrms(a)erols.com
Organization: Holistic Herbal/&/WaveRider Research
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>,
PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: What's TENIX??
References: <199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Harald Barth:
> > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
> > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
> > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
> > Controller with
> > 8'' floppy
> > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
> > Controller with
> > 10 ttys
>
> Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
> mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
>
> Any ideas, people??
>
> Warren
Tenex was a PDP10 (aka DECSystem 10/20) operating system.
Some 10s had 11s as consoles.
bob
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03459
for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:07:40 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se> Fri Mar 20 21:06:44 1998
Received: from pancake.pdc.kth.se (pancake.pdc.kth.se [130.237.221.163])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03454
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:07:33 +1100 (EST)
Received: from pancake.pdc.kth.se (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by pancake.pdc.kth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00394;
Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:06:51 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199803201106.MAA00394(a)pancake.pdc.kth.se>
To: shsrms(a)erols.com
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, haba(a)pdc.kth.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: What's TNIX (Was: What's TENIX??)
From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:55 -0500"
References: <351093C7.5B96(a)erols.com>
X-Mailer: Mew version 1.54 on Emacs 20.2.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:06:44 +0100
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi,
I wrote to Warren:
> > > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
> > > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
> > > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
> > > Controller with
> > > 8'' floppy
> > > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
> > > Controller with
> > > 10 ttys
Warren wrote:
> > Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
> > mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
shsrms(a)erols.com wrote:
> Tenex was a PDP10 (aka DECSystem 10/20) operating system.
> Some 10s had 11s as consoles.
The Tektronix manuals say "Tektronix Unix" and "TNIX". Looks like I've
to boot the box and have a closer look at the actual software. I'm
quite sure that it is some kind of v7. Unfortunately, it's just
binaries. I don't think this should be confused with Tenex and/or
PDP10s which had PDP11s and PDP8s as I/O processors in different
places.
Harald.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08866
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:45:22 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se> Sun Mar 22 11:44:17 1998
Received: from pancake.pdc.kth.se (pancake.pdc.kth.se [130.237.221.163])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08860
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:45:15 +1100 (EST)
Received: from pancake.pdc.kth.se (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by pancake.pdc.kth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA02181;
Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:44:19 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199803220144.CAA02181(a)pancake.pdc.kth.se>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: bygg(a)sunet.se, thn(a)stacken.kth.se, haba(a)pdc.kth.se
Subject: Two different 2.11?
From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
X-Mailer: Mew version 1.54 on Emacs 20.2.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:44:17 +0100
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Started to get 2.11BSD working on emulator and 11/70. So far:
Started emulator taken from:
ftp://haba@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02/
Made kernel on emulator which supports the actual hardware:
DELUA at non standard addr, RA81, RL02
Moved boot RL02 to 11/70 with RSTS/E
Made bootable RA81 on 11/70
Untar:ed usr from
ftp://haba@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/file6.tar.gz
....And now the binaries from that tar file crash with "unknown system
call" However, the binaries distributed in the disk images work. Any
clues?
Harald.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09210
for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:23:37 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Mar 22 14:23:15 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09204
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:23:31 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA08735
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:23:15 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:23:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803220423.UAA08735(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Two different 2.11?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greetings -
No, there is only 1 2.11BSD (in the sense that there are NOT
competing versions or distributions).
What happened I believe is that the Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 is older
than the files in Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD.
I have not looked at the Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 files to determine
when they were created (what patch level, etc.). On your RL02 system
what do the first two or three lines of /VERSION?
Anyhow, between the time that the 2.11_on_rl02 images were created
(I did not create them) and December-1997/January-1998 several new
system calls were created _AND_ the entire system was recompiled
and relinked. That is why you can NOT use binaries from the
Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD with earlier kernels. There is UPWARD
compatibility (old binaries can run on new kernels) but not backwards
compatibility.
What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
2.11BSD.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
> From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
>
> Started to get 2.11BSD working on emulator and 11/70. So far:
>
> Started emulator taken from:
> ftp://haba@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02/
>
> Made kernel on emulator which supports the actual hardware:
> DELUA at non standard addr, RA81, RL02
>
> Moved boot RL02 to 11/70 with RSTS/E
>
> Made bootable RA81 on 11/70
>
> Untar:ed usr from
>
> ftp://haba@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/file6.tar.gz
>
> ....And now the binaries from that tar file crash with "unknown system
> call" However, the binaries distributed in the disk images work. Any
> clues?
>
> Harald.
>
>
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11410
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:54:56 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 23 07:55:25 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11405
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:54:51 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08277 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:55:25 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803222155.IAA08277(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: SCO processing the new licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:55:25 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi all,
Dion at SCO writes today:
We have about a dozen licenses here, all paid up and signed off.
So you should start receiving your PDP Unix licenses soon. He didn't say who
the first dozen were.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12569
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:02:33 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Mon Mar 23 12:02:10 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12564
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:02:25 +1100 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-09.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.105]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id WAA21783 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:02:11 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199803230302.WAA21783(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:02:10 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Building sim tapes
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
In-reply-to: <199803220423.UAA08735(a)moe.2bsd.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
> need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
> 2.11BSD.
I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't
find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's
emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program?
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12805
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:25 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 23 14:31:19 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12799
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:21 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09463; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:20 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803230431.PAA09463(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Building sim tapes
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:19 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803230302.WAA21783(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Mar 22, 98 10:02:10 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Ed G.:
> > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
> > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
> > 2.11BSD.
>
> I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't
> find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's
> emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program?
I don't think Bob's latest emulator has got this. I've hacked at another
program to do this, and I'll make it available tomorrow.
Bob has asked me to submit this to him for inclusion in his simulator.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12839
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:39:21 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Mar 23 14:38:48 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12833
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:39:12 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27736
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:38:48 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:38:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803230438.UAA27736(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Building sim tapes
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
>
> > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
> > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
>
> I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't
> find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's
> emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program?
It's in /usr/src/sys/pdpstand. Look in file7.tar.gz from the 2.11 part
of the Distributions and it should be somewhere in there.
makesimtape is a hacked up version of 'maketape', the syntax and data
file are the same so if you know how to use 'maketape' to create
bootable tapes you're all set.
The program is short enough I'll include it here. It should compile
and run with minimal tweeking on any 'BSD'ish UNIX system.
Steven
-----------------------
/*
* @(#)makesimtape.c 2.0 (2.11BSD) 1997/8/7
* Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for
* use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape
* driver.
*
* NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out
* the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian
* machine nor a big-endian one.
*/
#include <stdio.h>
#include <errno.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <sys/uio.h>
#define MAXB 30
char buf[MAXB * 512];
char name[50];
long recsz, flipped, trl();
int blksz;
int mt, fd, cnt;
struct iovec iovec[3];
struct iovec tmark[2];
void usage();
main(argc, argv)
int argc;
char *argv[];
{
int i, j = 0, k = 0, zero = 0;
register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL;
FILE *mf;
struct stat st;
while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF)
{
switch (i)
{
case 'o':
outfile = optarg;
break;
case 'i':
infile = optarg;
break;
default:
usage();
/* NOTREACHED */
}
}
if (!outfile || !infile)
usage();
/* NOTREACHED */
/*
* Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or
* 2) Exists but is a regular file.
*/
if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode)))
errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file");
/* NOTREACHED */
mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600);
if (mt < 0)
err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile);
/* NOTREACHED */
mf = fopen(infile, "r");
if (!mf)
err(1, "Can not open %s", infile);
/* NOTREACHED*/
tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long);
tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero;
while (1)
{
if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF)
exit(0);
if (i != 2) {
fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i);
exit(1);
}
if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB)
{
fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz);
exit(1);
}
recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */
iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz);
#ifdef pdp11
iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped;
#else
iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz;
#endif
iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz;
iovec[1].iov_base = buf;
iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len;
iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base;
if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0)
{
if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0)
warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed");
k++;
continue;
}
fd = open(name, 0);
if (fd < 0)
err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name);
/* NOTREACHED */
printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k);
/*
* we pad the last record with nulls
* (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash).
* this allows you to access text files on the
* tape without garbage at the end of the file.
* (note that there is no record length associated
* with tape files)
*/
while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz)
{
j++;
#ifdef pdp11
flipped = trl(recsz);
#endif
if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0)
err(1, "writev #1");
/* NOTREACHED */
}
if (cnt > 0)
{
j++;
bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt);
#ifdef pdp11
flipped = trl(recsz);
#endif
if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0)
err(1, "writev #2");
/* NOTREACHED */
}
close(fd);
}
/*
* Write two tape marks to simulate EOT
*/
writev(mt, tmark, 1);
writev(mt, tmark, 1);
}
long
trl(l)
long l;
{
union {
long l;
short s[2];
} foo;
register short x;
foo.l = l;
x = foo.s[0];
foo.s[0] = foo.s[1];
foo.s[1] = x;
return(foo.l);
}
void
usage()
{
fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n");
exit(1);
}
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12877
for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:16 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 23 15:00:45 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12872
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:12 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09569; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:45 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803230500.QAA09569(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Where ISN'T the PUPS Archive (was building sim tapes)
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:45 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803230438.UAA27736(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Mar 22, 98 08:38:48 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
> >
> > > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
> > > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
> >
> > I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't
> > find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's
> > emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program?
> It's in /usr/src/sys/pdpstand. Look in file7.tar.gz from the 2.11 part
> of the Distributions and it should be somewhere in there.
Ah, I should point out to the readers of the mailing list:
The PUPS Archive is NOT what you get by going to
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
as anonymous. Obviously, the archive has to be password
protected, and so the anonymous ftp on Minnie isn't the Archive.
I suspect Ed has been walking thru the anonymous area, which is why he
could only find Bob Supnik's emulator.
Anyway, Steven has provided a solution. Steven, could you put in
#ifdefs for particular endian architectures???
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA16339
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:49:18 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Mar 24 11:49:02 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16334
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:49:11 +1100 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-06.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.102]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id VAA27961 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:49:03 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199803240249.VAA27961(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:49:02 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: What's magtape good for anyway?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> The program is short enough I'll include it here. It should compile
> and run with minimal tweeking on any 'BSD'ish UNIX system.
Thanks!
I was just a plain old user during my college days, so I've never had
much contact with magtape.
But since magtape seems the easiest way to get data into and out of
Bob Supnik's emulator, I've been fooling around with (simulated)
tape a lot lately.
To me (or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about) it seems
like magtape has a number of deficiencies:
No filenames or directory structure: just an ordered series of
bytes. Which would seem to imply that people must've used tar *a lot*
to get these services. True?
Padding of files to a multiple of the block size. Yuck! If I have
a 312 byte file, I do not want to save it and then retrieve a (to my
eyes anyway) different 512 byte file which has been padded with
200 bytes I didn't put there. Did this padding of files ever have
any bad effects?
So I was wondering, what *did* people use magtape for on these old
Unix systems?
Here are my guesses:
Bad Old Days What we use now
================================
Archival storage (tape, CD-Roms, Zip drives, floppies)
Application Software distribution (WWW, CD-Roms, ftp, email,
floppies)
System software distribution (CD-Roms, ftp)
Backups (tape)
Transfering a little data (Floppies, email).
Transfering a lot of data (CD-Roms, Zip drives, ftp, tape)
Have I left any significant use for tape out?
Ed G.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16572
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:14 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 24 14:34:54 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16567
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:10 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11927 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:54 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803240434.PAA11927(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:54 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803240249.VAA27961(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Ed G.:
> So I was wondering, what *did* people use magtape for on these old
> Unix systems?
Add another one: Xmas decorations.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16598
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:44:36 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 24 14:45:16 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16593
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:44:32 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11961 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:45:17 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803240445.PAA11961(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Moving PDP-11 disk images to disk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:45:16 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I've had a few people ask the question:
I have a PDP-11, you have disk and tape images for old Unixes. How do get
the images onto my actual disk/tape so I can install Unix?
If anybody has sucessfully done:
image -> tape -> install to disk -> working PDP-11 UNIX
image -> install to disk -> working PDP-11 UNIX
or any other variant, using any intermediate system (e.g KSERVE & RT-11),
could they please drop me a note with some _details_ of what they did.
I'd like to add this to the FAQ, as I suspect this is going to be a
popular question as people receive their SCO UNIX licenses.
Thanks in advance!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16670
for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:59:01 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Mar 24 14:58:44 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA16665
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.adfa.OZ.AU>; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:58:52 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA14216; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:58:45 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803240458.AA14216(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:58:44 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803240249.VAA27961(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> To me (or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about) it seems
> like magtape has a number of deficiencies:
>
> No filenames or directory structure: just an ordered series of
> bytes. Which would seem to imply that people must've used tar *a lot*
> to get these services. True?
Most (non-Unix) minicomputer OS's had built-in support for
ANSI labeled files, which do have filenames (and header bytes to
specify record sizes and number of records). Folks who used Unix
either made their own labeled tape facility (e.g. Ultrix and
OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work.
The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem
really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of
the world isn't always just a stream of bytes!
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17996
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:32:09 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Wed Mar 25 00:31:48 1998
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.216.42])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17991
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:32:00 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09618;
Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:31:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199803241431.JAA09618(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:31:48 -0500 (EST)
Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803240458.AA14216(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 23, 98 08:58:44 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Now far for me to be defending 9-track tapes on UNIX systems, and I'm
the first to admit I've not encountered *all* the various methods used
everywhere to write tapes, but it took no time for me years ago to write
a program that would pull blocks off a tape (by trying to read the max
limit block size) and recording the actual block size read. Oddly enough
when matched with a program that read this "raw format" info, it was sure
trivial to reproduce the tape... but I'm sure I'm missing something.
Luckily on my UNIX systems I am unencumbered by someone else's potentially
proprietary or undocumented "file structure" - both by the system and
by the media. -- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 24 00:09:12 1998
|
| Most (non-Unix) minicomputer OS's had built-in support for
| ANSI labeled files, which do have filenames (and header bytes to
| specify record sizes and number of records). Folks who used Unix
| either made their own labeled tape facility (e.g. Ultrix and
| OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work.
|
| The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem
| really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of
| the world isn't always just a stream of bytes!
|
| Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA19183
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:41 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 25 07:18:39 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19178
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:36 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA00742 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:39 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803242118.IAA00742(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:39 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I spent some time last night adding stuff to my virtual tape server.
I have to test it today, but essentially:
Box with serial line PDP-11 with
tape server -----------> uncompress & dd
+ disk_image.Z (bootable)
In other words, you can boot to an uncompressing dd, and suck over
any disk image, without actually requiring an operating system.
With this approach, you obtain an existing disk image that will work,
or you use one of the PDP-11 emulators to create a disk image with a
Unix kernel configured for your system. You then compress it, and
suck/splat it to your real PDP-11 via the serial line.
Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can
someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even
if it could only cope with gzip -1 files.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19562
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:05 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 25 10:23:05 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19557
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:01 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01449 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:05 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803250023.LAA01449(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Compress Disk Image Install works
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:05 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Well,
I'm currently sucking a .Z compress RK05 disk image over a 9600 baud
DL11 port; it seems to be working. Pity -b12 gives such low compression, but
I guess any saving at 9600 baud is worth it.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19586
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:30:26 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Mar 25 10:24:33 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19579
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:30:21 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14701
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:24:33 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:24:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803250024.QAA14701(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren -
>From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can
> someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even
> if it could only cope with gzip -1 files.
If my understanding of 'gzip' is right then the alogrithm works on
32kb blocks of data and the '-N' level has little to do with the
memory consumption. Rather, as the -1, ... -9 level increases the
amount of work that gzip puts into the compression increases (the
difference between -6 and -9 is only a few percent in final output
size but the length of time taken is quite a bit higher).
Of concern would be getting the gzip sources to compile with a non-ANSI
compiler on a non-32bit machine (sizeof (long) == sizeof(int) is an
endemic assumption I wager). Well, ok - there is the worry that
you will grow old waiting for it to compress something ;-) Gzip is a
lot more cpu intensive than compress.
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19600
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:56 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 25 10:32:56 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19595
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:52 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01502 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:56 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803250032.LAA01502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:56 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803250024.QAA14701(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Mar 24, 98 04:24:33 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Warren -
>
> >From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
>
> > Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can
> > someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even
> > if it could only cope with gzip -1 files.
>
> If my understanding of 'gzip' is right then the alogrithm works on
> 32kb blocks of data and the '-N' level has little to do with the
> memory consumption. Rather, as the -1, ... -9 level increases the
> amount of work that gzip puts into the compression increases (the
> difference between -6 and -9 is only a few percent in final output
> size but the length of time taken is quite a bit higher).
>
> Of concern would be getting the gzip sources to compile with a non-ANSI
> compiler on a non-32bit machine (sizeof (long) == sizeof(int) is an
> endemic assumption I wager). Well, ok - there is the worry that
> you will grow old waiting for it to compress something ;-) Gzip is a
> lot more cpu intensive than compress.
I'm only thinking of implementing gunzip on the PDP-11. I've got
uncompress -b12 running standalone right now, but gunzip would be a big
win: you gzip -9 on a 32-bit system (higher compression) and gunzip
on the PDP-11.
I just don't know if the gunzip would fit. Isn't there a gunzip for MS-DOS?
Surely we could leverage something from it?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20196
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:27 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 25 13:36:28 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20191
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:23 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02126 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:28 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803250336.OAA02126(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:28 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <m0yHgvc-000FlVC(a)bookworm.softway.com.au> from Peter Chubb at "Mar 25, 98 02:32:00 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Peter Chubb:
>
> In the Linux kernel, linux/lib/inflate.c and
> arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c there's a set of gunzip routines that
> could probably be adapted -- it runs in 16 bit mode (or ought
> to). inflate.c is K&R C, so it should compile under V7; misc.c is
> ANSI, but is small (just wrappers around gunzip) and in any case would
> bneed changing to make a proper gunzip.
>
> I'll see what I can do.
> Peter C.
I think Steven described the main thing: will it run in 64K? I've popped
some mail off to Jean-loup, who was involved with writing gzip.
If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a
standalone program with minimal effort: the V7 standalone library
provides open, close, read, write, printf, exit.
Cheers!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20401
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:31:45 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 14:31:34 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20396
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:31:39 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21400;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:01:36 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA22891;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:01:34 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980325150133.00427(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:01:34 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
References: <m0yHgvc-000FlVC(a)bookworm.softway.com.au> <199803250336.OAA02126(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803250336.OAA02126(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 02:36:28PM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 25 March 1998 at 14:36:28 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Peter Chubb:
>>
>> In the Linux kernel, linux/lib/inflate.c and
>> arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c there's a set of gunzip routines that
>> could probably be adapted -- it runs in 16 bit mode (or ought
>> to). inflate.c is K&R C, so it should compile under V7; misc.c is
>> ANSI, but is small (just wrappers around gunzip) and in any case would
>> bneed changing to make a proper gunzip.
>>
>> I'll see what I can do.
>> Peter C.
>
> I think Steven described the main thing: will it run in 64K? I've popped
> some mail off to Jean-loup, who was involved with writing gzip.
I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on
16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules
to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of
undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it
in more detail. On the whole, though, it looks as if it could be made
to work, maybe with a little tweaking.
> If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a
> standalone program with minimal effort: the V7 standalone library
> provides open, close, read, write, printf, exit.
Should be doable.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20463
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:49:13 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Mar 25 13:48:33 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20458
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.adfa.OZ.AU>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:49:06 +1100 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.97]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id XAA23265; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:41 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199803250448.XAA23265(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:33 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
In-reply-to: <9803240458.AA14216(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
References: <199803240249.VAA27961(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work.
Is 'dd' Unix's primary tool for dealing with tape drives?
> The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem
> really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of
> the world isn't always just a stream of bytes!
There are certain areas of Unix that don't seem quite "done" to me.
Printing comes to mind (compare Unix benign neglect with Windows'
universal printer driver).
My understanding is that the Unix philosophy was to provide raw and
cooked drivers for all the devices. That way you could have access
to the hardware if you needed it, or cushy operating system services
if you didn't. Only the cooked mode for the tape devices doesn't
seem to do much more than the raw mode.
Seems to me that they could have easily added file system services
for tape drives to the kernel, just like they did for hard disks.
Was support for tape another area that the Wizzards at Bell Labs
neglected in favor of other more urgent needs?
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20456
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:49:02 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Mar 25 13:48:33 1998
Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20451
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:48:56 +1100 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.97]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id XAA23272 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:46 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199803250448.XAA23272(a)renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:33 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Bug in Supnik's emulator?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which
seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on
a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens?
On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the
prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. So, for
example
factor 6
2
3
17
17
....
I might add that I had bc running on the emulator calculate pi to
30 places and the results were identical with gnu bc on my linux box,
right down to the last digit. Very impressive.
Ed
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20530
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:10:24 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Mar 25 15:06:26 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20521
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:10:16 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA16340
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:06:26 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:06:26 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803250506.VAA16340(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greg -
> I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on
Are gzip and gunzip comparable in size? I'm curious if the
decompression is more 'address space' hungry than the act of
compression (or vice-versa).
> 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules
> to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of
> undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it
Which symbols came up missing/undefined?
> > If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a
>
> Should be doable.
It's actually 56kb or less - have to leave room for the stack and
other data (strings, etc)
Steven
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20562
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:24:15 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 15:24:01 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20557
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:24:10 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21440;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:54:02 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA23064;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:54:01 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980325155401.32216(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:54:01 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator?
References: <199803250448.XAA23272(a)renoir.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803250448.XAA23272(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 11:48:33PM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which
> seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on
> a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens?
>
> On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the
> prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. So, for
> example
>
> factor 6
> 2
> 3
> 17
> 17
> ....
I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator.
In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD:
[55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6
2
3
[56] root-->
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20581
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:29:08 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 15:28:46 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20576
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:29:03 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21447;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:58:47 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA23086;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:58:47 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980325155846.17376(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:58:46 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
References: <199803250506.VAA16340(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803250506.VAA16340(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 09:06:26PM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 21:06:26 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on
>
> Are gzip and gunzip comparable in size?
They're links to the same executable.
> I'm curious if the
> decompression is more 'address space' hungry than the act of
> compression (or vice-versa).
I haven't looked at the process images on systems on which they run.
I suspect it wouldn't relate directly to 16 bit platforms anyway,
since they have a slightly modified algorithm.
>> 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules
>> to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of
>> undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it
>
> Which symbols came up missing/undefined?
Various things defined in the program. They relate to the area in
which I was tweaking.
>>> If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a
>>
>> Should be doable.
>
> It's actually 56kb or less - have to leave room for the stack and
> other data (strings, etc)
Yes, I understand. It may of course be that we need separate I and D.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20659
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:48:07 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 15:47:54 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20654
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:48:00 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21467
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:17:55 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA23181;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:17:55 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980325161754.63486(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:17:54 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not encouraging.
It would appear that the undefined references are undefined because
they refer to data which is too large. Here's the preprocessor
output:
uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ];
uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ];
ush d_buf[ 0x8000 ];
uch window[ 2*0x8000 ];
# 194 "gzip.c"
ush prev[ 1<<(16-1)];
ush tab_prefix1[ 1<<(16-1)];
uch and ush are uchar and ushort respectively. Obviously there's no
way of fitting this into a 64 kB address space. Possibly there's a
way of shortening the buffers, but it would take more time than I have
right now. Sorry for raising your hopes.
There are other zip-compatible programs out there, such as unzip.
Maybe somebody should look into them.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20686
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:29 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Wed Mar 25 16:00:21 1998
Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA20681
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:26 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from johnh@localhost)
by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02807
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:21 +1100
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:21 +1100
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199803250600.RAA02807(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
There were several tape handling programs that were standand from edition 5
onwards, including tap, tp, dtp, itp, tar and cpio. The only major tape standard
around at the time (other than IBM) was ANSI, and several programs (not from
Bell) were available to handle these. The ANSI tape structure was very
inefficient with tape usage, since it used small record sizes and lots
of tape marks. TAR did a better job (for Unix) and only lacked labels
to name the tape.
Putting tape filesystem handling into the kernel was definately against the
original 'small is beautiful' philosophy. In any case, tape handling was
very easy via the raw interface.
As a side issue, Plan 9 has the ability to mount a tape as part of the
namespace and only reads the file contents if the file is opened.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20787
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:44:22 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au> Wed Mar 25 17:43:00 1998
Received: from suede.sw.oz.au (firewall-user(a)gw.softway.com.au [203.31.96.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA20782
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:44:12 +1100 (EST)
Received: from bookworm.softway.com.au (root(a)bookworm.sw.oz.au [192.41.203.51])
by suede.sw.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25023;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:43:20 +1100 (EST)
Received: by bookworm.softway.com.au (Smail3.1.29.1 #4)
id m0yHjuC-000FlVC; Wed, 25 Mar 98 17:43 +1000
Message-Id: <m0yHjuC-000FlVC(a)bookworm.softway.com.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 17:43 +1000
From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
In-Reply-To: <19980325161754.63486(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <19980325161754.63486(a)freebie.lemis.com>
X-Mailer: VM 6.35 under Emacs 20.2.2
Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023.
X-Face: .slVUC18R`%{j(W3ztQe~*ATzet;h`*Wv33MZ]*M,}9AP<`+C=U)c#NzI5vK!0^d#6:<_`a
{#.<}~(T^aJ~]-.C'p~saJ7qZXP-$AY==]7,9?WVSH5sQ}g3,8j>u%(a)f$/Z6,WR7*E~BFY.Yjw,H6<
F.cEDj2$S:kO2+-5<]afj@kC!:uw\(<>lVpk)lPZs+2(=?=D/TZPG+P9LDN#1RRUPxdX
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
Greg> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not
Greg> encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are
Greg> undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's
Greg> the preprocessor output:
Greg> uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush
Greg> d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c"
You need to decrease the window size -- try setting it to 8k (instead
of 32k)
There should be a
#define WSIZE 0x8000
somewhere.
It may be worth playing with a decompress only version -- compression
will take more space than decompression (you need two windows rather
than one, for a start). inbuf can be smaller, too. Try 512 bytes to
match the disc record size.
Peter C
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20848
for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:11:48 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 17:11:36 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA20843
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:11:43 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21565;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:41:37 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA23376;
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:41:37 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980325174136.47943(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:41:36 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
References: <19980325161754.63486(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m0yHjuC-000FlVC(a)bookworm.softway.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <m0yHjuC-000FlVC(a)bookworm.softway.com.au>; from Peter Chubb on Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 05:43:00PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 25 March 1998 at 17:43:00 +1000, Peter Chubb wrote:
>>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
>
> Greg> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not
> Greg> encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are
> Greg> undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's
> Greg> the preprocessor output:
>
> Greg> uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush
> Greg> d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c"
>
> You need to decrease the window size -- try setting it to 8k (instead
> of 32k)
>
> There should be a
> #define WSIZE 0x8000
> somewhere.
Correct. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. Here's the
definition:
#ifndef WSIZE
# define WSIZE 0x8000 /* window size--must be a power of two, and */
#endif /* at least 32K for zip's deflate method */
> It may be worth playing with a decompress only version -- compression
> will take more space than decompression (you need two windows rather
> than one, for a start).
Yes, that was really what I was thinking of doing with unzip, rather
than excising the unzip part from gunzip.
> inbuf can be smaller, too. Try 512 bytes to match the disc record
> size.
Sure, once I get into serious modifications I can try a number of
things. The trouble is, I just don't have the time. I thought it was
worth 15 minutes to see what it would do, and the first attempts
looked encouraging. Unfortunately, the second attempts didn't :-(
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21748
for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:20:28 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V7 startup
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but ISTR that the dateset at startup
<just set MM/DD HH/MM and relies on reading the year last written in a fil
<somewhere. If you run 'date' as root once the system is up, you can set
<year as well.
You are correct. I works.
Now I have four systems running some form unix (Linux, Venix, Ultrix, and
V7) and their resemblence at the user level is good but at the sysadmin
they might as well be from different worlds. Granted, they are different
platforms.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA20711
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:02 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 06:59:03 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20706
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:58:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01365 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:03 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172059.HAA01365(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:03 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803171500.KAA03862(a)link.link-systems.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 10:00:36 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Ken Wellsch:
[ Ken confirms that the Xinu distribution for the PDP-11 includes
the sunchip package, which is a C compiler and assembler, all
written in C ]
> Chip is the "Cornell Hypothetical Instructional Processor." It has a
> PDP11-like architecture and supports virtual memory.
> description can be found in the technical report:
>
> To run the simulator for this machine, you need a 4.1bsd (or newer) Unix
> system. The distribution also contains a development environment for CHIP
> containing a C compiler, assembler, loader and various other tools. To
> run the development software, you currently need Digital Equipment Corp.
> VAX computer. However, with minimal effort, all of this software should
> be able to run on any host with UNIX.
>
> [...]
>
> ----------------------------------- end of README --------------------
>
> P.S. As I suspected and feared,
>
> % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11
>
> indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu,
> CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler.
So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21294
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:24 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 07:39:18 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21289
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:19 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01634; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:18 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172139.IAA01634(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Sunchip compiler -- how to get it.
To: Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:18 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9803172136.AA03640(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Mar 17, 98 03:36:20 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Milo Velimirovic:
> Postscript to previous note,
>
> Where might I obtain the sunCHIP C compiler for comparison purposes?
You need to fetch the Xinu distribution. I haven't got time to unpack the
compiler sections right now, but you can get the whole tarball at
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/incoming/DISTR.lsi.tar.gz
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23166
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:54 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 08:41:55 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23161
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:50 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01741 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:55 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172241.JAA01741(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:55 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803172238.RAA24010(a)link.link-systems.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 05:38:12 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Ken Wellsch:
> I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything
> from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong. The DECUS C stuff had a
> special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe
> a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago...
Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong.
Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23726
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:23:13 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 11:22:59 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23721
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:23:09 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02264 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:22:59 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803180122.MAA02264(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:22:59 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
licenses. The front says:
I am
LEGALLY
CONTAMINATED
by UNIX
The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
Sound good?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23861
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:47:59 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 18 11:47:42 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23852
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:47:52 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10115;
Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:17:43 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA09271;
Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:17:42 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980318121742.30724(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:17:42 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
References: <199803180122.MAA02264(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803180122.MAA02264(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 12:22:59PM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 18 March 1998 at 12:22:59 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
> licenses. The front says:
>
> I am
> LEGALLY
> CONTAMINATED
> by UNIX
It's a nice start, but it doesn't really demonstrate the historical nature.
> The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
> Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
That sounds good.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24022
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:23:03 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Mar 18 12:33:46 1998
Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24017
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:22:57 +1100 (EST)
Received: from emusp6 (1Cust202.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net [153.36.233.202])
by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2
release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA19033;
Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:22:51 -0600
From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "PDP Unix Preservation" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:33:46 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19980318022245.AAA19033(a)1Cust202.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi Warren ...
----------
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
> Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 6:22 PM
>
> I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
> licenses. The front says:
>
> I am
> LEGALLY
> CONTAMINATED
> by UNIX
>
> The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
> Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this
*/
Do i need the SCO source license for this t-shirt ???? ;-))))
>
> Sound good?
>
>
yes
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24057
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:36 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 12:42:38 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24052
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:33 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02386 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:39 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803180242.NAA02386(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:38 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980318022245.AAA19033(a)1Cust202.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> from emanuel stiebler at "Mar 17, 98 07:33:46 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
> > licenses. The front says:
> >
> > I am
> > LEGALLY
> > CONTAMINATED
> > by UNIX
> >
> > The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
> > In the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
>
> Do i need the SCO source license for this t-shirt ???? ;-))))
Yes, of course you will. You will also have to kill anybody who attempts
to read the back.
Greg Lehey also commented:
> It's a nice start, but it doesn't really demonstrate the historical nature.
Hmm, how can we rectify this?
How about a list of versions covered by the SCO License, arranged randomly
around the `I am LEGALLY CONTAMINATED by Unix' on the front?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24130
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:07:12 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Mar 18 12:58:21 1998
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24122
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:06:51 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id LAA28549; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:16:38 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma028546; Wed Mar 18 11:16:33 1998
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA02180;
Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:58:21 +0800 (SGT)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:58:21 +0800 (SGT)
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
Message-Id: <199803180258.KAA02180(a)iti.gov.sg>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de
Subject: Re: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler?
Reply-To: joerg(a)begemot.org
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
# In article by Ken Wellsch:
# > I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything
# > from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong. The DECUS C stuff had a
# > special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe
# > a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago...
#
# Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong.
# Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler?
One thing I can tell for sure: the DECUS C Compiler and the K&R CC are
completely different in their origins. I'm about 90% sure the DECUS XCC
is written in MACRO-11.
The reason I'm so sure is because we were looking at a suitable C compiler
to run on our 11/34 back in 1989 and we first mungled with the DECUS XCC.
But this one had several deficiencies, among them I remember lack of blocks
within functions, local variable initialization, difficulties with typedefs/structs.
Maybe, Harti could tell more.
We were looking into Johnson's pcc, but this one turned out to be a too big
piece of work and to slow to run on our 128 KWord machine.
Harti tried to port the Whitesmith CC from RT11, and it ran, but there were
deficiencies with the RT emulation, so we dropped that.
Finally, we took the K&R UNIX CC and reworked it so that it would pass the
DECUS XCC to produce the stage one. We wrote our own unix assembler supporting
the RSX object file format from scratch. Later, we recompiled the K&R CC on
RSX with itself. This system became our workhorse for the next 2 years, the
compiler is still amazingly fast, both in terms of runtime and the code being
produced. (Quoted: Harti)
So here are the 4 different original sources of C compilers for the 11, though,
admittedly, 2 of them would run on DEC's original OS, not on UNIX, which I guess,
makes them somewhat irrelevant to PUPS. Am I right here ? (Where do we draw the
boundary ?)
Joerg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24152
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:09:56 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Mar 18 13:00:59 1998
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24147
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:09:49 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id LAA28594; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:19:42 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma028584; Wed Mar 18 11:19:11 1998
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA02265;
Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:00:59 +0800 (SGT)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:00:59 +0800 (SGT)
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
Message-Id: <199803180300.LAA02265(a)iti.gov.sg>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren writes:
# I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
# licenses. The front says:
#
# I am
# LEGALLY
# CONTAMINATED
# by UNIX
#
# The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
# Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-)
Joerg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24169
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:06 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 13:13:09 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24164
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:03 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02583 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:09 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803180313.OAA02583(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:09 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803180300.LAA02265(a)iti.gov.sg> from Joerg Micheel at "Mar 18, 98 11:00:59 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Joerg Micheel:
> Warren writes:
>
> # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
> # licenses. The front says:
> #
> # I am
> # LEGALLY
> # CONTAMINATED
> # by UNIX
> #
> # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
> # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
>
> Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-)
>
> Joerg
I should say (and Joerg reminds me) that he & Harti sent me a t-shirt
a couple of years ago with a copy of boot/login sequence of V7 on the
front, and the section of the V6 kernel with the comment above on the
back. I wear it quite a bit, and my fiancee likes it too, but probably
for other reasons.
Thanks Joerg!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24256
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:49:47 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Mar 18 13:40:24 1998
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24251
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:49:25 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id LAA29201 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:59:12 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma029192; Wed Mar 18 11:58:37 1998
Received: (from joerg@localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA04283
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:40:24 +0800 (SGT)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:40:24 +0800 (SGT)
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
Message-Id: <199803180340.LAA04283(a)iti.gov.sg>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
Reply-To: joerg(a)begemot.org
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
# > # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
# > # licenses. The front says:
# > #
# > # I am
# > # LEGALLY
# > # CONTAMINATED
# > # by UNIX
# > #
# > # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
# > # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
# >
# > Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-)
# >
# I should say (and Joerg reminds me) that he & Harti sent me a t-shirt
# a couple of years ago with a copy of boot/login sequence of V7 on the
# front, and the section of the V6 kernel with the comment above on the
# back. I wear it quite a bit, and my fiancee likes it too, but probably
# for other reasons.
The /* You are not expected to understand this */ is also on the second
page of Peter Salus' A Quater Century of UNIX, explaining a lot of folklore
behind the UNIX history, including things like "a tape was found on the
street to contain ...".
The "contamination" term is (as far as I can tell) originated at Berkeley.
When USL sued UCB for violating AT&T UNIX copyrights, it became apparent,
that anyone ever having had a look at the original sources would be "infected"
and be disallowed to distribute code that vaguely resembles anything in UNIX.
Kirk McKusick then showed up with "Mentally contaminated" stickers for everyone
attending the 4.4BSD Kernel Internals course at the Winter 1993 USENIX
Conference, since he would present us - guess, what - source code! (of 4.4BSD)
I still have the sticker somewhere in my collection.
Joerg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24298
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:20 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 14:07:23 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24293
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02670 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:23 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803180407.PAA02670(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Mental contamination (was t-shirts)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:23 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803180340.LAA04283(a)iti.gov.sg> from Joerg Micheel at "Mar 18, 98 11:40:24 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Joerg Micheel:
> The /* You are not expected to understand this */ is also on the second
> page of Peter Salus' A Quater Century of UNIX, explaining a lot of folklore
> behind the UNIX history, including things like "a tape was found on the
> street to contain ...".
Yes, I'd love to lay my hands on the `50 bugs' tape. For those who don't
have Peter Salus' book (get out there & buy it!), this tape had fixes to
V6, but the lawyers prevented Bell Labs from distributing it. So, someone
`found' it lying in the street and that's how the patches found their way
out of the Labs.
>The "contamination" term is (as far as I can tell) originated at Berkeley.
>Kirk McKusick showed up with "Mentally contaminated" stickers for everyone
>attending the 4.4BSD Kernel Internals course at the Winter 1993 USENIX
>Conference, since he would present us - guess, what - source code! (of 4.4BSD)
>
> I still have the sticker somewhere in my collection.
I got one of the `Free the Berkeley 4.4' t-shirts. Good stuff.
Kirk's the guy who is working on making the 4.xBSD releases available on CD.
Please don't hassle him about it; I'll do that 8-)
I've informed him that the SCO license covers 32V. Therefore, a lot of
people will soon become eligible to receive 4.xBSD.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24465
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:59:25 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V7 startup
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Mar 16, 22:05, Allison J Parent wrote:
> Subject: Re: V7 startup
>
> Well v7 binary runs seemingly well on my 11/73 with the kitchen sink
> (the extra and unusable accouterments). It doesn't use much though!
> The Rl02 disk does have about 5mb space.
>
> One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the
> one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not
> obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be
> nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2.
I think I have the RX driver somewhere. Might take a while to find, though.
> The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year?
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but ISTR that the dateset at startup does
just set MM/DD HH/MM and relies on reading the year last written in a file
somewhere. If you run 'date' as root once the system is up, you can set the
year as well.
> The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system
> all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running
> do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method
> for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system.
Mine has a script which includes a umount (you won't strictly need that for a
single drive) and a sync or two, and a little message. It might have a 'kill
-1 1' to take it to single-user mode. Other than that, just halt it after a
sync.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA20559
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:07:31 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V7 startup
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<The kernel you got probably doesn't have much else. I could build anoth
<kernel for you. Once you get the source license, you'll be able to do i
<youself!
The probability source license is currently low, that cost is currently
out of my reach. The other problem with only a RL02 I doubt there is
compile space enough. The need to compile to get a bigger device is
hampered by the lack of a bigger device. A built kernal would be
desireable. In the mean time I can do a lot of learning off this one.
My wish list is MSCP disks, RL02, RX02, DLV11j, TK50 support and
networking. That's likely too much.
I'd be happy if I could mount a RX02 or MSCP disk even if I can't boot
off it.
That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from
ODT/console boot? It does boot RSTS and RT-11 packs. the boot block
munged?
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA20234
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 05:05:14 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V7 startup
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<The kernel you got probably doesn't have much else. I could build anothe
<kernel for you. Once you get the source license, you'll be able to do it
<youself!
I believe it's the supnick V7 binary. that should be a known version to
those that have run the emulator (I haven't).
< date [ yymmddhhmm [ .ss ] ]
Date wants to see MM/DD HH/MM and that is it. Anything else causes
error and it asks again.
<What serial devices do you have? I think V7 expected hardwired things
<like KL-11s.
11/73 console DL. I'll look to see of I can lock the console settings.
I know on the 11/23 that can be done. Keep in mind I run Q-bus.
< even allow even parity
< -even disallow even parity
< odd allow odd parity
< -odd disallow odd parity
< 50 75 110 134 150 200 300 600 1200 1800 2400 4800 9600
No selection of number of data bits??
< http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/manpages.html
I've been relying on the linux ones and the Ultrix manuals I have.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA19844
for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:18:08 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V7 startup
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<You might also want to do
<
<STTY -LCASE
<
<when you get in to be able to use mixed-case.
Your kidding, right? %-| I would have assumed mixed unless otehrwise
specified.
In either case I had it up and running though I think I didn't have
timesharing going.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18133
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:00:20 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V7 startup
by allisonp＠world.std.com
Well v7 binary runs seemingly well on my 11/73 with the kitchen sink
(the extra and unusable accouterments). It doesn't use much though!
The Rl02 disk does have about 5mb space.
One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the
one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not
obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be
nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2.
The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year?
Is there any way to get it to stay in 8/n/1 (my system(s) default) rather
than 7/e/1.
The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system
all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running
do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method
for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17672
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:10 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 17 13:15:05 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17667
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:06 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00560 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:06 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803170315.OAA00560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: V7 startup
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:05 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803170305.AA05406(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 16, 98 10:05:52 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Allison J Parent:
> One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the
> one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not
> obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be
> nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2.
The kernel you got probably doesn't have much else. I could build another
kernel for you. Once you get the source license, you'll be able to do it
youself!
> The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year?
# man date
DATE(1) DATE(1)
NAME
date - print and set the date
SYNOPSIS
date [ yymmddhhmm [ .ss ] ]
DESCRIPTION
If no argument is given, the current date and time are
printed. If an argument is given, the current date is
set. yy is the last two digits of the year; the first mm
is the month number; dd is the day number in the month; hh
is the hour number (24 hour system); the second mm is the
minute number; .ss is optional and is the seconds.
> Is there any way to get it to stay in 8/n/1 (my system(s) default) rather
> than 7/e/1.
What serial devices do you have? I think V7 expected hardwired things
like KL-11s.
Anyway, here's some of the stty(1) manual.
SYNOPSIS
stty [ option ... ]
DESCRIPTION
Stty sets certain I/O options on the current output termi-
nal. With no argument, it reports the current settings of
the options. The option strings are selected from the
following set:
even allow even parity
-even disallow even parity
odd allow odd parity
-odd disallow odd parity
50 75 110 134 150 200 300 600 1200 1800 2400 4800 9600
exta extb
Set terminal baud rate to the number given, if
possible. (These are the speeds supported by the
DH-11 interface).
> The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system
> all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running
> do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method
> for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system.
I think that's all you could do.
Warren
P.S Online mans at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/manpages.html
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18069
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:27:38 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V7 startup
by allisonp＠world.std.com
Thanks Warren,
<Have a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html
I'll go back and reread it.
>>>>>< @unix <<<<<<<
THAT'S what I was trying to remember!
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17613
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:06:14 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
V7 startup
by allisonp＠world.std.com
Thanks to a member I now have V7 (supnik) Binary on RL02 to try out.
Several questions:
What hardware does it expect (besides RL02)? This is so I can configure
the 11/73 or 11/23 as it expects.
When I boot it on the 11/73 (1mb ram, RLV21, RX02, RQDX3(rd52/RX33),
DLV11j currently) using RT-11 BOOT/FOREIGN I do get a "@" and it's
not ODT. What commands do I issues to get going from there?
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15720
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:14 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 17 08:49:32 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15715
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:10 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02937 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:32 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803162249.JAA02937(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: V7 startup
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:32 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803162245.AA08767(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 16, 98 05:45:19 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Allison J Parent:
>
> Thanks to a member I now have V7 (supnik) Binary on RL02 to try out.
>
> Several questions:
>
> What hardware does it expect (besides RL02)? This is so I can configure
> the 11/73 or 11/23 as it expects.
Have a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html
> When I boot it on the 11/73 (1mb ram, RLV21, RX02, RQDX3(rd52/RX33),
> DLV11j currently) using RT-11 BOOT/FOREIGN I do get a "@" and it's
> not ODT. What commands do I issues to get going from there?
Instructions are in Bob Supnik's emulator readme:
2.1.3 UNIX V7
UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX:
sim> set cpu 18b
sim> set rl0 RL02
sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk
sim> boot rl0
@unix
login: root
password: pdp
# ls -l
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17274
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:44:31 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
by Greg Lehey
Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
agreement. Can anybody tell me?
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11521
for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:01:49 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 16 15:02:01 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11516
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:01:44 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02064 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:02:01 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803160502.QAA02064(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:02:01 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980316115531.52411(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 16, 98 11:55:31 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
> agreement. Can anybody tell me?
Should I put this in the getlicense web page?
Warren
F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be
executed by their duly authorized representatives.
LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
__________________________________ <--- Greg Lehey Mr
Name Title
__________________________________ <--- Your address
Address
__________________________________
Address
__________________________________
Address
__________________________________
By <---- Ignore, hangover from old
AT&T licences where
__________________________________ organisational license
Print or Type Name and title (named above) is authorised
by an individual (here)
__________________________________
Phone and FAX, please <--- Phone, fax, email address
__________________________________
Email address - required
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12553
for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:40:49 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Mar 16 15:40:15 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12548
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:40:37 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07244;
Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:10:17 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA25226;
Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:10:17 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980316161015.07896(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:10:15 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
References: <19980316115531.52411(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199803160502.QAA02064(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803160502.QAA02064(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 04:02:01PM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
>> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
>> agreement. Can anybody tell me?
>
> Should I put this in the getlicense web page?
A good idea, but...
I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you
saying I should sign where it says "By"?
Greg
> F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________.
>
> IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be
> executed by their duly authorized representatives.
>
> LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
>
> __________________________________ <--- Greg Lehey Mr
> Name Title
>
> __________________________________ <--- Your address
> Address
>
> __________________________________
> Address
>
> __________________________________
> Address
>
> __________________________________
> By <---- Ignore, hangover from old
> AT&T licences where
> __________________________________ organisational license
> Print or Type Name and title (named above) is authorised
> by an individual (here)
> __________________________________
> Phone and FAX, please <--- Phone, fax, email address
>
> __________________________________
> Email address - required
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12594
for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:01 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 16 15:44:09 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12586
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:43:52 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02167 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:09 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803160544.QAA02167(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:09 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980316161015.07896(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 16, 98 04:10:15 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > In article by Greg Lehey:
> >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
> >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
> >> agreement. Can anybody tell me?
> >
> > Should I put this in the getlicense web page?
>
> A good idea, but...
>
> I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you
> saying I should sign where it says "By"?
No, just fill in the top section. Leave the `by' section alone, as you
ARE your own representative.
The only time you'd fill out the bottom section is if you were buying
a license for a company, e.g
Sproggs Inc.
5 Looney road,
SPOTSWOLD. NSW. 2001
by
Warren Toomey
etc etc etc.
Hope this helps.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA12928
for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:58:46 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Mon Mar 16 17:00:16 1998
Received: from asia.Uznet.NET (asia.uznet.net [193.220.92.23])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12923
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:58:30 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from stacy@localhost)
by asia.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00643
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:00:16 +0500
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:00:16 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199803160700.MAA00643(a)asia.Uznet.NET>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RQDX3 problems
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi pdp people!
Few days ago I wrote about my hardware problems and asked
for hardware guru. Now I've solved some of them -
I checked my backplane and it was 18-bits I wired
insufficient A19-A21 signals and my CPU acessed memory and
now it runs ok. But! I still do not know what happens to
my RQDX3!
I know that this question has little relation to UNIX
and apologize for that.
I hardly suspect circuitry fault but may be some
other reasons. It looks like this:
-My RQDX3 is now connected to simple 5-inch floppy drive
when I power up the machine I see no activity on ANY
pin of RQDX3 to RQDX SIG. DIST. 50-pin connector! I mean
there is no triggering signals hence my floppy
also does nothing. When I try to execute bootstrap or
simply debug RQDX3 registers from console it looks like this:
RESET
CLR @#1772150
<checking 1772152 - it holds 5500 - kinda normal>
MOV #100000,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 1
; no ints enabled, no vector specified,
; UDA OWN bit set. Rings are zero length
<checking 1772152 - it holds 10000 - step one passed>
MOV #xxxxxx,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 2
; specifying low address bits
<checking 1772152 - it holds 20000 or something alike -
no error bit is set - I'm sure- step2 passed>
MOV #0,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 3 - specifying
; high address bits>
<here we can wait for eternity!!!!!!!! Step 3 will never complete>
Does anybody know what does it mean? I also have TMSCP TQK70
controller but no tape drive for it. When I try to run it there
is absolutely similar situation - I think this happens each time
[T]MSCP controller tries to powerup without any drives connected to it.
So I'm looking for help from somebody who can give a hint
about which signal should i check to assertain in absence of hardware fault.
I have no drawings for RQDX3 neither user's guide. It can even be caused
by wrong setting of switches/jumpers - I dont know.
Stacy.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA14297
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:41:35 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Mar 17 01:41:14 1998
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA14292
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:41:29 +1100 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (tide22.microsoft.com [131.107.3.32])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17334;
Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:41:17 -0800
Message-ID: <350D481A.DAA7B5A4(a)halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:41:14 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
References: <199803160544.QAA02167(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greg,
Since none of the responses seem to really answer your question,
here's what I did:
I signed my name on the very first line where it says "Name".
I then printed my name on the line where it says "Print or Type Name".
If this is incorrect, I guess I'll get it back!
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Greg Lehey:
> > On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > > In article by Greg Lehey:
> > >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
> > >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
> > >> agreement. Can anybody tell me?
> > >
> > > Should I put this in the getlicense web page?
> >
> > A good idea, but...
> >
> > I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you
> > saying I should sign where it says "By"?
>
> No, just fill in the top section. Leave the `by' section alone, as you
> ARE your own representative.
>
> The only time you'd fill out the bottom section is if you were buying
> a license for a company, e.g
>
> Sproggs Inc.
> 5 Looney road,
> SPOTSWOLD. NSW. 2001
>
> by
>
> Warren Toomey
> etc etc etc.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15691
for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:45:45 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Does anybody have an assembler in C?
by Greg Lehey
I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD
(running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the
assembler's written in, well, assembler. It would be Real Convenient
if I could find an assembler written in C. Does anybody know of one?
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA17387
for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 02:40:44 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Mar 12 01:29:23 1998
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.216.42])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA17375
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 02:39:46 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26566;
Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199803111529.KAA26566(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:23 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19980311163735.37825(a)freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 11, 98 04:37:35 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. I could swear
the assember was in C - I am sure because I recall fighting with all the
code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
the details of precisely which one it matched more closely). If Tim
does not still have the contents I know I've got it archived away and
can fetch that part for you. -- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 01:16:07 1998
|
| I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD
| (running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the
| assembler's written in, well, assembler. It would be Real Convenient
| if I could find an assembler written in C. Does anybody know of one?
|
| Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA17547
for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:36:44 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Mar 12 02:36:33 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA17541
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:36:37 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA08101; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:36:33 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803111636.AA08101(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:36:33 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <199803111529.KAA26566(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> from "Ken Wellsch" at Mar 11, 98 10:29:23 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
> that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.
Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.
> code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
> that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
> C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
> the details of precisely which one it matched more closely).
I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly -
and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but
with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11. Does
this ring a bell? Or am I completely on the wrong track?
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18056
for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:21:10 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Mar 12 04:21:00 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA18051
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:21:04 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA19967; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:01 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803111821.AA19967(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:00 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
> > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.
>
> Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
> sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.
Taking a quick look at the DECUS C package, I see that isn't the answer.
There's an "as"-style assembler there written in MACRO-11, though :-).
I think you were referring to the XINU-11 package available by anonymous
ftp from sunsite:
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu
in particular, if you look in
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/
unpacked/src/cmd/as11
you'll find the "as11" sources in C, specifically written for BSD4.3 on
a VAX.
I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding
the XINU package. If research shows that this is freely distributable,
is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive,
Warren?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18071
for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:23:08 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Mar 12 04:22:47 1998
Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.216.42])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA18066
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:23:02 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost)
by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA31588;
Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:22:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199803111822.NAA31588(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:22:47 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Tim,
No, the DECUS C compiler is a very different kettle of fish. Sorry to
be so vague - I can only go by memory now as all my archived info is on
CD-ROM's at home. Back in the mid to late 80's a few folks made available
a bundle put together by the folks at Purdue I think - I believe it was
related to Dr. Comer (sp?) and the Xinu stuff - but this bundle was
intended to provide a compiler environment on SunOS systems of the mid
80's to teach lower level system stuff - I've forgotten if it related
to simulating an 11 or was instead just for a cross-compiler environment
to build Xinu mini-kernels on faster platforms to then download to the LSI
11 testbed. One place I picked it up (via FTP) called it "sunchip.tar.Z"
or similar, while another I think just called it "chip.tar.Z."
I mentioned you only because I do remember grabbing it from your sunsite
archive while you were still at Caltech and later sending e-mail WRT the
licensing thing.
-- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 11:45:28 1998
|
| > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
| > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.
|
| Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
| sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.
|
| > code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
| > that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
| > C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
| > the details of precisely which one it matched more closely).
|
| I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly -
| and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but
| with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11. Does
| this ring a bell? Or am I completely on the wrong track?
|
| Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18738
for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:24:26 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU> Thu Mar 12 06:25:03 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA18731
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:24:19 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA18417; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:24:06 -0800
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA18211; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:23:49 -0800
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16016 for shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:25:03 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>
Message-Id: <199803112025.HAA16016(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:25:03 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9803111821.AA19967(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 11, 98 10:21:00 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Tim Shoppa:
> I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding
> the XINU package. If research shows that this is freely distributable,
> is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive,
> Warren?
>
> Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Xinu is freely distributable, as long as it's not sold as a competing
product to Doug Comer's book. It's in the archive.
Another solution for a assembler in C is some stuff I've got from a
Russian, who `ported' either cc or pcc to a Sparc, as a cross-compiler.
Greg, have a look in .miscfiles. If someone can make some order out of
this, I'll put it in the archive.
To the PUPS readers, there is a whole lot of stuff I've got but I haven't
added into the PUPS ARchive as yet:
+ System V (SCO license doesn't include it)
+ copyright stuff I haven't cleared it's release yet
+ unsorted jumble Someone has to categorise this
I could put the unsorted jumble into the PUPS Archive. Yes or no?
P.S Woke up to a barrage of email today. Wading thru it....
Warren
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Mar 8, 11:35, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> A non-legal question: the system identifies itself as "v6" when it
> boots, but there is a "v7.h" header file in the /sys directory.
> Is this maybe really a V7 system? Or maybe from an era when the
> trnasition from V6 to V7 was being made? Datestamps on the files
> are from 1982.
That would cerainly put it well into the v7 era 9by thre years). But there
were several differences, as I'm sure Tim knows, and some people didn't change.
I'd guess this one has back-ported some v7 stuff onto what was otherwise a
'legacy' system.
I think the RL02 drivers were written in Boston for v7 (or am I thinking of the
RX02 driver?). Maybe v7.h has something to do with allowing this driver to be
used?
> Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's
> running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems
> to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short
> of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this?
I don't know, but if anyone else does, please tell! My 11/23 system has a
kernel panic if I try to run it on an 11/73 (by swapping out the CPU board).
> # LS GAMES
> ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP
> BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS
Interesting... ADVENT is missing from my v7. Any chance of a copy?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09225
for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:37:15 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Mar 10 03:37:04 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA09220
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:37:08 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA13243; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:37:04 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803091737.AA13243(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:37:04 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803091245.ZM21377(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 9, 98 12:45:16 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> That would cerainly put it well into the v7 era 9by thre years). But there
> were several differences, as I'm sure Tim knows, and some people didn't change.
> I'd guess this one has back-ported some v7 stuff onto what was otherwise a
> 'legacy' system.
>
> I think the RL02 drivers were written in Boston for v7 (or am I thinking of the
> RX02 driver?). Maybe v7.h has something to do with allowing this driver to be
> used?
Well, this is what V7.h says:
#DEFINE V7CODE 7 /* IF COMPILING V7 COMPATIBLE CODE */
#DEFINE V7 (U.U_SYSTEM == V7CODE)
and this is what a config file looks like:
# CAT CONFIG.MLAB
# CONFIGURATION FOR EXTENDED CARE PATHOLOGY SYSTEM WITH RL
CONSOLE
SYS
MEM
RL
RX2
ROOT RL 0
SWAP RL 0 19000 1480
CPU 23
FPU
DL 5
LTC
It also looks like there's support in the sources for 11/34's and 11/45's,
in addition to the 11/23:
# CD CONF
# LS
ADEVS C.C DATA.S L-MLAB.S MAKE-MLAB
BDEVS C.TM F23.O L.S MAKEFILE
CDEVS C23.C F23.S L23.S MKCONF.C
MAKEFILE CONFIG F45.S M23.S SYSFIX
C-MLAB.C CONFIG.AWK KDWORD.S M34.S SYSFIX.C
C-MLAB.O CONFIG.MLAB L-MLAB.O M45.S
> > Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's
> > running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems
> > to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short
> > of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this?
>
> I don't know, but if anyone else does, please tell! My 11/23 system has a
> kernel panic if I try to run it on an 11/73 (by swapping out the CPU board).
Maybe it is the CPU and not the memory that's causing the problem - I was
probably a bit premature in jumping to the conculsion about the memory
(perhaps my 2.9BSD experiences aren't applicable here.)
> > # LS GAMES
> > ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP
> > BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS
>
> Interesting... ADVENT is missing from my v7. Any chance of a copy?
Sure. Warren's already moved the RL02 image to Boot_images in the PUPS
archive, and at some point someone (me? Warren?) might find enough
copious free time to strip out the sources.
The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find
the 'mount' executable. I suspect that the system manager might have removed
or (more likely) renamed it as a security precaution. (Security? Unix?
well, you can try...) I'd like to mount one of the user disks on a
second RL drive, but without 'mount' this is hard. Anyone have any ideas?
"/dev/rl1" is real and works fine, as I can "od /dev/rl1" without a problem.
# MOUNT /DEV/RL0 /MNT
MOUNT NOT FOUND
# CD /
# LS -A
. ETC MNT RX UNIX.RXRL
.. FIXOWNER MNT1 SRC UNIX.TMP
.MAIL HMBOOT MNT2 SYS USR
.PROFILE JUNK NAMES TMP V7BOOT
A.OUT LIB OLDUNIX UNIX X
BIN LIB.OLD OLDUNIX.25.7 UNIX.JONES XLIB
DEV LOOP RLUBOOT UNIX.MLAB
# CAT .PROFILE
V7=YES
UMASK 002
HOME=\'PWD\'
: MAIL=$HOME/.MAIL
B=$HOME/BIN
PATH=:$B:/BIN:/USR/BIN:/USR/BIN/V7:/USR/UCB
PS1="$ "
UPTIME
: 'ECHO -N "FORTUNE: "; /USR/GAMES/FORTUNE'
# LS /BIN
A DB GREP NEWGRP SH.V7
ANVART DC HELP NM SH.YALE
AR DCHECK ICHECK OAS SIZE
AR-NEW DD IF OCC SORT
AR-OLD DF KILL OD STRIP
AS DISKCOPY L OLDCHEF STTY
AT DISKCOPY.OLD LD OLS SU
AWK DSW LINK OPR SUM
BAS DU LIST OXY SYNC
BYE DUMP LN PASSWD TIME
CAT E LOGIN PGS TP
CC ECHO LPR PR TP.OLD
CDB ED LS PS TS
CHGRP EXIT LST RESTOR TTY
CHMOD F MAIL REW UNIQ
CHOWN FC MAKE RM WHO
CLRI FF MENU RMDIR WRITE
CMP FILE MKDIR SH XTP
CP FS MV SH.BELL XY
CSH FTN NCC SH.DEFAULT
DATE GOTO NCHECK SH.TEST
# LS /USR/BIN
! DIFF GSI NCCC SPLIT
STTY DIFFDIR HACK NICE SRCCOM
AC DITTO HEAD NMS STARTLP
ARCV DOSCVT HEX NOHUP STOP
ASA DOSDT IGNORE NOPARITY STRINGS
BANNER DOUBLE INDEX NROFF SYSMON
BASIC DOWN INFO OFFLINE TABEXP
BATCHCARDS DRIBBLE IUL ONLINE TABS
BC DSTAT JOIN PARITY TB
BCD DTC KWT PF TCON
BCPIO DTCOPY LABELS PFE TEE
BCPL DTFS LAST PFSH TOASA
BEEP ENTER LC PFWAIT TOUCH
C EOT LENGTH PG TR
CAL ERASE LIBGEN PLOT TRIM
CAP EXPAND LIBSORT PLOTTER TSET
CCC FDB LINES PP TT
CHDATE FED LINKER PPR TX4010
CHEF FERR LISP PROF TXOFF
CHK FEXPR LOADVFU PT TXON
CKDIR FIELDS LOC PWD TYPO
CLEAR FILDES LOCK QP U2L
COL FIND LONG RADPK UC
COLS FIX LPI RC UNARCV
COMM FIXLEN M2U READPPT V0CVT
COST FMT M2U.OLD REFS V7CVT
CPALL FMT_INDEX M6 ROFF VT125PLOT
CPIO FMTCARD MAN RTDT WC
CREF FMTINDEX MARK RTLD WHERE
CRPOST FMTSORT MESG RULER WIPE
CRYPT FOLD MNTBIN RUN WRAP
CS FORM MPLOT RX2FMT XFS
CS2 FSIZE MPLOT.HIDDEN RXFMT ZERO
CTL GAMES MTS SA
CVTRT GENDATE MTSFS SKULK
DBL GRAB MVDIR SLEEP
# LS /USR/BIN/V7
/USR/BIN/V7 NOT FOUND
# LS /USR/UCB
MAIL DRIBBLE.OUT GREP PIX SSP
APROPOS EX HEAD PRINT STRINGS
ASTAGS EX.OLD IUL PRINTENV TMP
CKDIR EXPAND LAST PTAGS TOD
CLEAR EYACC LOCK PX TRA
CLOCK FLEECE LS PX34 TSET
CR3 FMT.UCB MAKEWHATIS PXP UNTMP
CTAGS FOLD MAN PXP34 VI
CXREF FROM MKSTR PXREF W
DAYTIME FTAGS MSGS RESET WHATIS
DIFFDIR FUNNY NUM SEE WHEREIS
DOUBLE GETNAME PI SETENV WHOAMI
DRIBBLE GETS PI34 SOELIM XSTR
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10124
for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:24:59 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Mar 10 07:24:49 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10119
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:24:52 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA07849; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803092124.AA07849(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <9803091737.AA13243(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 9, 98 09:37:04 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find
> the 'mount' executable.
Many thanks to Pete Turnbull, who pointed me towards /etc/mount.
Some of the "user" disks appear to be corrupted. Anyone care to tell
me where to find fsck?
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10206
for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:48:46 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Tue Mar 10 07:52:20 1998
Received: from toes.its.uwlax.edu (toes.its.uwlax.edu [138.49.128.183])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10200
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:48:36 +1100 (EST)
Received: by toes.its.uwlax.edu;
id AA02902; NX5.67e/42; Mon, 9 Mar 98 15:52:25 -0600
Message-Id: <9803092152.AA02902(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain
Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2.RR)
From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 15:52:20 -0600
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Whither fsck (was: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
References: <9803092124.AA07849(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Tim,
fsck doesn't exist yet in the V6 world. you want icheck and dcheck... they
need at least one argument which should be the name of a raw device
containing the filesystem you want to check. (Using the block device anme
will work but be much, much slower.)
---
Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
Information Technology Services -- Network Services
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
Begin forwarded message:
>
>X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to
owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
>Subject: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
>To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800 (PST)
>In-Reply-To: <9803091737.AA13243(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar
9, 98 09:37:04 am
>Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>
>> The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find
>> the 'mount' executable.
>
>Many thanks to Pete Turnbull, who pointed me towards /etc/mount.
>
>Some of the "user" disks appear to be corrupted. Anyone care to tell
>me where to find fsck?
>
>Tim.
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10827
for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:39:57 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 10 10:40:59 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10822
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:39:52 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA10668 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:40:59 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803100040.LAA10668(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Just in from Dion
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:40:59 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Guys,
Just got this in from Dion re the license. No word as to date of
availability yet, I did say `we're waiting....' though.
I sent Dion a draft set of instructions on how to get the license.
Part of his return email goes:
> 4. For AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, I suggest writing:
>
> All countries not excluded by Section 5.2
Yes, very good. I have no idea how to find that damned
govt list. I think our reference is out of date but who
> 5. You need to list the DESIGNATED CPUs. [Do we? I can't see where
> on the draft to fill this in] If you have PDP-11 hardware,
> list the number and models of PDP-11s, e.g
No, it doesnt say that. It says that on our request, you must
furnish the list, but we dont demand it up front. In practice,
I doubt we will ever ask anyone to furnish this, much less
do an on-site visit. Of course, it might be a fun way to
win a trip to Australia if I volunteer to go on a tour to
see that our highly valuable intellectual property is
being treated right... ;-)
That sounds good to me.
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 11 13:16:06 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15085
for <unixarc(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:14:53 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14910 for unixarc(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:16:06 +1100 (EST)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:16:06 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803110316.OAA14910(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
To: unixarc(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PDP-11 UNIX Src Licenses Available
Hello, you are receiving this mail for one of the following reasons:
+ you signed a petition urging SCO to make source licenses for
PDP-11 UNIX available
+ your filled in a survey detailing what you wanted in such a
source license
+ you are a member of the PUPS mailing list
I am glad to announce that, as a result of the petition, SCO have made
source licenses available for most versions of PDP-11 UNIX. The essential
details of the license are:
Covers research Editions 1 to 7, and 32V.
Covers derived versions of UNIX which ran on PDP-11s.
Specifically excludes System V onwards.
Full source code, binaries and documentation.
Personal, non-commercial use.
Exchange of sources and modifications to other licensees.
Non-disclosure to unlicensed people.
The cost is US$100. Details on how to obtain the license are available at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html
SCO will not ship any media with this license. The PDP-11 Unix Preservation
Society has a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs and tapes
in order to distribute the PUPS Archive of old Unix software to licensed
people. Details about this archive are available at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html
We would like a few more licensed people to volunteer to create CD-ROMs and
tapes, to take the load off the existing volunteers.
Finally, none of this would have been possible without the immense support
which we received from Dion Johnson within SCO. He battled with the legal
eagles over a period of 18 months or so to make the license available. If
you can, please send Dion a thank you card at the address
The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
400 Encinal Street
Santa Cruz, CA 95061-1900
United States of America
Attention: Dion Johnson
This will be a surprise for him, but I'm sure he will appreciate your
thanks.
In turn, I would like to thank you all for your support. Without the
signatures on the petition, none of this would have been possible.
Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15239
for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:50:50 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 11 13:52:01 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15234
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:50:47 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15256 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:52:01 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803110352.OAA15256(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: SCO PDP-11 Licenses Available
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:52:01 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Most of you on the PUPS mailing list should have received notice that SCO
are now selling the PDP-11 Unix source licenses we have been waiting so long
for. If not, details are on the PUPS web page, and at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html
We only have 6 volunteers ready to write media (CDs, tapes) holding the
archive of PDP-11 Unix material. Anybody else want to volunteer?
SCO will let us set up password-protected ftp sites. I will set up the
PUPS archive here for password-protected ftp. Would anybody else be prepared
to mirror this and also provide password-protected ftp? I'd like one
in the US and one in Europe.
Cheers all,
Warren
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Hardware guru needed!
by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com
On Mar 5, 12:59, Stacy Minkin wrote:
> Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok.
> Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and
> RQDX3 and all of that)
You probably don't need to change anyhing on the RQDX3 -- they're usually set
up correctly (because they'e not often changed :-)
> Same story with RQDX3 - currently I have no RDx disks so I thought
> that boot my system from RX50 is not a bad idea... I've plugged
> standard 5 inch floppy to RQDX3 sig. dist. connector labeled "RX50"
> and fired up the machine. Got nothing.
During init, the RQDX3 probes the disk(s) to see what's there. For a floppy,
it checks for an RX50 by selecting the drive, finding track zero, and then
switching the side select. On a real RX50, which actually behaves as two
separate single-sided drives, this turns off the track zero signal; but not on
any normal drive. There's a way to fool it, but you need to modify the drive
or add a little circuitry. However, if you can find an RX33-compatible drive,
that would be more useful anyway.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA20302
for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:43:39 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Mar 6 02:25:43 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA20297
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:43:32 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA03469; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:25:43 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803051625.AA03469(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Hardware guru needed!
To: stacy(a)asia.uznet.net (Stacy Minkin)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:25:43 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <199803050759.MAA00282(a)harrier.asiasys.com> from "Stacy Minkin" at Mar 5, 98 12:59:48 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Those new machine is the
> main reason for joining to this list for me.
> It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option,
> TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc.
> I also have the complete BSD2.9 source distribution
> in tar file and like to run all of the above.
Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70)
controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU.
> Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok.
> Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and
> RQDX3 and all of that) and have very little docs about
> how to set it correctly.
The best place to ask about these things would be the usenet newsgroup
vmsnet.pdp-11.
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA20695
for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:24:04 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Mar 6 04:07:15 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA20690
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:23:53 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22049
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:07:15 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:07:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803051807.KAA22049(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Hardware guru needed!
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
> > Those new machine is the main reason for joining to this list for me.
> > It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option,
> > TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc.
>
> Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70)
> controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU.
That's almost two problems :-)
It might be possible to retrofit [T]MSCP support into 2.9 but it would
be a lot of work and a system with both MSCP and non-MSCP devices
would be required.
Swapping out the cpu card for a KDJ-11AB (M8192 if my memory hasn't
completely faded) wouldn't be too expensive and would speed things
up too. Hmmm, might need a MXV11 bootrom card. Perhaps a KDJ-11BB
would be a better way to go.
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA21408
for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:25:23 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Fri Mar 6 06:23:21 1998
Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA21403
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:25:16 +1100 (EST)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:23:21 -0800
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Just got V7 going on 11/83...
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Message-ID: <13337322993.13.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I just got V7 to load on my 11/83. Killes 2 hours playing wump.
Who says you need grpahics for games?
:)
Anyway, I know there's no source liscense yet, but can I get someone to
build a kernel for me? I wouldn't have to see source... It'd be real neat
to hang this off a termserver and allow telnets... I'm gonna do that
with my RSTS box real soon, the only limitation here is that V7 is only built
with support for the console.
I have the V7 image downloaded from DEC. I kermitted it to the 83, and did
COPY v7.DSK/FILE DL0:/DEVICE
It truncated something, but FSCK says the pack is fine.
I have to load RT-11 from the MSCP, then say BOOT/FOR DL0: to start V7, though
because if I tell the ROM to load DL0, it dies saying the disk isn't bootable.
But at least it runs!
-------
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21527
for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:13:01 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Nickolai Zeldovich <kolya(a)zepa.net> Fri Mar 6 07:12:44 1998
Received: from orion.zepa.net (root(a)orion.zepa.net [205.245.53.12])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21522
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:12:54 +1100 (EST)
Received: from orbit.zepa.net (root(a)orbit.zepa.net [205.245.53.14])
by orion.zepa.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA19731
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:12:46 -0500 (EST)
Received: from orbit.zepa.net (kolya(a)orbit.zepa.net [205.245.53.14])
by orbit.zepa.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA25305
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:12:45 -0500
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:12:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Nickolai Zeldovich <kolya(a)zepa.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PDP Prompt?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980305160751.25074A-100000(a)orbit.zepa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hello,
I'm trying to revive a PDP 11/04, but not having much luck at the moment..
I got a serial terminal hooked up to it, and upon bootup, it gives me the
following on the display:
<triangle sign><triangle sign> 177777 177776
$
apparently, $ is some sort of a prompt. It only accepts two characters,
and after, it seems, any pair of characters, will go on and give me a new
prompt.
Is this some sort of a ROM debugger? What can I tell it? I think I've
tried almost every combination of 2 letters without any success..
Some info about the PDP:
It's a 11/04, with a dual 8" floppy drive and some big cage made by MTS,
with nothing in it but a large number of slots. Has some buttons saying
'STATION 1 DUMP', 'STATION 2 DUMP', and so on.. The floppy drive has two
8" floppies in it, one of them appears to be some sort of a system floppy,
the other has no label.
Does this look like even remotely salvageable? :)
-- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai(a)zepa.net ]
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21757
for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:52:44 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Mar 6 07:52:14 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA21752
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:52:35 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA01812; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:52:15 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803052152.AA01812(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP Prompt?
To: kolya(a)zepa.net (Nickolai Zeldovich)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:52:14 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980305160751.25074A-100000(a)orbit.zepa.net> from "Nickolai Zeldovich" at Mar 5, 98 04:12:44 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> I'm trying to revive a PDP 11/04, but not having much luck at the moment..
> I got a serial terminal hooked up to it, and upon bootup, it gives me the
> following on the display:
>
> <triangle sign><triangle sign> 177777 177776
> $
>
> apparently, $ is some sort of a prompt. It only accepts two characters,
> and after, it seems, any pair of characters, will go on and give me a new
> prompt.
>
> Is this some sort of a ROM debugger? What can I tell it? I think I've
> tried almost every combination of 2 letters without any success..
Commands available at this prompt include:
L<space>nnnnnn<CR> - to set an address
E<space> - to examine the address set with L
D<space>nnnnnn<CR> - to deposit at an address set with L
S<CR> - begin running at the loaded address
The console ROM is very picky; all letters need to be in upper case,
and you need to type <space> and <CR> in exactly the right places.
It's also very stupid, in that if you try to Examine or Deposit to
a non-existent address, the only clue you get is that the RUN light on
the goes out and you have restart it from the front.
> It's a 11/04, with a dual 8" floppy drive and some big cage made by MTS,
> with nothing in it but a large number of slots. Has some buttons saying
> 'STATION 1 DUMP', 'STATION 2 DUMP', and so on.. The floppy drive has two
> 8" floppies in it, one of them appears to be some sort of a system floppy,
> the other has no label.
>
> Does this look like even remotely salvageable? :)
It'll never run a modernish Unix, but it will run RT-11 just fine.
Is the floppy controller a DEC RX211 (M8256) or RX11 (M7846) or some
third-party clone? Are there any boot ROM's on the M9312? The RX01
boot ROM is 23-753A9, and the RX02 boot rom is 23-811A9. If you've
got a third party RX clone controller, it may have the boot ROM on that
board. Try examining addresses 173000, 173200, 173400, 173600, and
171000 to see if a boot ROM might be living at any of these addresses.
As this is very non-Unix related, you might want to ask any other questions
you have on a more general PDP-11 related forum, such as the Usenet newsgroup
"vmsnet.pdp-11".
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26620
for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:33:09 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Mar 6 15:34:38 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (asia.uznet.net [193.220.92.23])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26615
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:32:58 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from stacy@localhost)
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00190
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:34:38 +0500
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:34:38 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199803060534.KAA00190(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Re: Hardware guru needed
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
>What backplane? There are 16, 18 and 22 bit address backplanes and
>using the smaller with the larger memory generally does not work and
>give an address error.
>I prefer to use part/model number like H9273(a backplane) or
>M8259(memory).
How actually distinguish these backplanes?
I can check whether extended address lines are routed to slots, if
it sufficient - ok. If not - are there more differencies?
>What you need is a copy of the dec hand books that list all those details.
>Any of the volumes from the mid to late 80s would help.
No chance to get it in xUSSR!
>Standard floppy? You can use a DEC RX50 or an RX33(teacfd55gfv). If
>using the latter *all* of the jumper must be set up correctly in the
>drive. The RX33 is a 1.2m 5.25" drive with speed select. You cannot
>use a PC 5.25 360k drive or a 3.5" drive(actually it's possible but,
>very non standard and unhelpful to you at this time).
Which logical drive address should be set on floppy?
>Unless the jumpers or switches on the RQDX3 were messed with the defalt
>addresses and config are usually the way they are set and fit for use.
The time I got RQDX3 it's address was set wrong. I've changed it immediately
but there are lots of other switches...
>For the RDxx you can use a ST225(rd31), st251(rd32), QUANTUM D540(rd52),
>micropolus 1325(rd53) or MAXTOR2990(RD54) if they are formatted correctly.
>or any other drive that matches the number of heads and cylinders of those
>listed. Note those are all MFM type drives.
Has anyone formatter?
>Allison
Stacy
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26655
for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:48:40 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Mar 6 15:50:05 1998
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (asia.uznet.net [193.220.92.23])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26650
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:48:29 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from stacy@localhost)
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00239
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:50:05 +0500
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:50:05 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199803060550.KAA00239(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Re: hardware guru needed
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
>Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70)
>controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU.
No problem. I can write this drivers.
Pete Tornbull wrote about triggering
"TRACK0" signal in responce to triggering
"SIDE SEL". Is it the only difference?
Stacy.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA29268
for pups-liszt; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:47:23 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sat Mar 7 05:48:24 1998
Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA29263
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:47:15 +1100 (EST)
Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38])
by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA00160;
Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:47:09 +0100 (MET)
Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
id UAA29597; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:48:25 +0100
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:48:24 +0100 (MET)
From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Re: Hardware guru needed
In-Reply-To: <199803060534.KAA00190(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980306204439.29584A-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
About formatter..
The VAXstation 2000 can format iron beds.
You plug in 'any' mfm drive and if the enter TEST 53.
If the machine does not recognize the drive, it will prompt you for drive
parameters.
/Lars
On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Stacy Minkin wrote:
>
> >What backplane? There are 16, 18 and 22 bit address backplanes and
> >using the smaller with the larger memory generally does not work and
> >give an address error.
>
> >I prefer to use part/model number like H9273(a backplane) or
> >M8259(memory).
> How actually distinguish these backplanes?
> I can check whether extended address lines are routed to slots, if
> it sufficient - ok. If not - are there more differencies?
>
> >What you need is a copy of the dec hand books that list all those details.
> >Any of the volumes from the mid to late 80s would help.
>
> No chance to get it in xUSSR!
>
> >Standard floppy? You can use a DEC RX50 or an RX33(teacfd55gfv). If
> >using the latter *all* of the jumper must be set up correctly in the
> >drive. The RX33 is a 1.2m 5.25" drive with speed select. You cannot
> >use a PC 5.25 360k drive or a 3.5" drive(actually it's possible but,
> >very non standard and unhelpful to you at this time).
>
> Which logical drive address should be set on floppy?
>
> >Unless the jumpers or switches on the RQDX3 were messed with the defalt
> >addresses and config are usually the way they are set and fit for use.
>
> The time I got RQDX3 it's address was set wrong. I've changed it immediately
> but there are lots of other switches...
>
> >For the RDxx you can use a ST225(rd31), st251(rd32), QUANTUM D540(rd52),
> >micropolus 1325(rd53) or MAXTOR2990(RD54) if they are formatted correctly.
> >or any other drive that matches the number of heads and cylinders of those
> >listed. Note those are all MFM type drives.
>
> Has anyone formatter?
>
>
> >Allison
>
> Stacy
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05932
for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:36:05 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 9 05:35:55 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA05927
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:35:59 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA26778; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:35:55 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803081935.AA26778(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:35:55 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980306204439.29584A-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 6, 98 08:48:24 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I've been sorting through some RL02's that came with a 11/23 system
that I bought at a UBC SERF sale a year or so ago. On these RL02's
there is at least one bootable V6 system, apparently generated
specifically to be run on a 11/23. This ought to be of some interest
to folks with real 11/23's with RL02 drives, as the other V6 systems
that I'm aware of don't have RL02 handlers.
Here's the question: this RL02 apparently has kernel sources in
the directories /sys/ken and /sys/dmr. Does the presence of these
files mean that I can only distribute images of this RL02 to those
with source licenses?
A non-legal question: the system identifies itself as "v6" when it
boots, but there is a "v7.h" header file in the /sys directory.
Is this maybe really a V7 system? Or maybe from an era when the
trnasition from V6 to V7 was being made? Datestamps on the files
are from 1982.
For those who are listed, a log produced while running in single-user
mode from a copy of the RL02 pack.
Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's
running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems
to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short
of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
b dl0
!unix
unix v6 11/23
mem = 99 KW max = 63
# CD /SYS
# LS
V7.H FILE.H LIB1 SEG.H TTY.H
BUF.H FILSYS.H LIB2 SGTTY.H USER.H
CONF INO.H PARAM.H STAT.H
CONF.H INODE.H PROC.H SYSTM.H
DMR KEN REG.H TEXT.H
# LS DMR KEN
DMR:
MAKEFILE DHFDM.O HT.O PIR.C TC.O
AD.C DN.C IC.C PIR.O TM.C
AD.O DN.O IC.O RF.C TM.O
ADOLD.C DP.C IOCTL.C RF.O TTY.C
BDREL.C DP.O IOCTL.O RK.C TTY.O
BIO.C DUP.C IR.C RK.O TTY.S
BIO.O DUP.O IR.O RL.C TTYI.C
CAT.C DZ.C KL.C RL.O TTYI.O
CAT.O DZ.O KL.O RM04.LAYOUT TTYINEW.C
CR.C FAKE.C LP.C RP.C VS.C
CR.O FAKE.O LP.O RP.O VS.O
DC.C HM.C MEM.C RX2.C VT.C
DC.O HM.O MEM.O RX2.O VT.O
DH.C HP.C OLDRL.C STAT.C XP.C
DH.O HP.O PARTAB.C STAT.O XP.O
DHDM.C HS.C PARTAB.O SYS.C XY.C
DHDM.O HS.O PC.C SYS.O XY.O
DHFDM.C HT.C PC.O TC.C
KEN:
MAKEFILE IGET.S PIPE.C SUBR.C SYSENT.C
ALLOC.C IOCTL.C PRF.C SYS1.C TEXT.C
CLOCK.C MAIN.C RDWRI.C SYS2.C TRAP.C
FIO.C MALLOC.C SIG.C SYS3.C TRAP.S
IGET.C NAMI.C SLP.C SYS4.C
# CD /USR
# LS
ADM HANNAH LEUNG OLD WHO
BATCH HARDY LIB PROGM XLIB
BIN INCLUDE LOG RAWICZ XYD
EVANS INF LPD TMP YEUNG
FORT KNOWLES MDEC UCB
GAMES KUKAN NEEDHAM WEBB
# LS GAMES
ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP
BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS
# LS UCB
MAIL DRIBBLE.OUT GREP PIX SSP
APROPOS EX HEAD PRINT STRINGS
ASTAGS EX.OLD IUL PRINTENV TMP
CKDIR EXPAND LAST PTAGS TOD
CLEAR EYACC LOCK PX TRA
CLOCK FLEECE LS PX34 TSET
CR3 FMT.UCB MAKEWHATIS PXP UNTMP
CTAGS FOLD MAN PXP34 VI
CXREF FROM MKSTR PXREF W
DAYTIME FTAGS MSGS RESET WHATIS
DIFFDIR FUNNY NUM SEE WHEREIS
DOUBLE GETNAME PI SETENV WHOAMI
DRIBBLE GETS PI34 SOELIM XSTR
#
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA06382
for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:37:19 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 9 09:38:15 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA06377
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:37:15 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08954 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:38:15 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803082338.KAA08954(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: FAQ of Archive of PDP-11 Unix
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:38:15 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I'm starting up a FAQ on the archive of PDP-11 Unix stuff and how to
use it. What I've got so far is at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/faq1.html
but not yet linked to the other pages.
I'm happy to take other questions. I'm _very_ happy to get answers! Answers
will have attributions of course. This is a back burner thing, but I'll go
back through the mail archive and see what I can come up with.
Also note: I will add a table of contents to the top at some stage.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06469
for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:17:58 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 9 10:18:50 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06464
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:17:54 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09059; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:18:50 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803090018.LAA09059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: 11/04 floppy problems
To: kolya(a)zepa.net
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:18:50 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980308190743.24989A-100000(a)orbit.zepa.net> from Nickolai Zeldovich at "Mar 8, 98 07:13:08 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Nickolai Zeldovich:
> I'm having a somewhat interesting problem with my PDP-11.. I'm trying to
> boot a 11/04 from a 8" floppy drive, but DX, DX0, and DX1 all make it hang
> up (RUN light goes out). Would you know what this would mean? I'm not sure
> if this question is really appropriate for the list, sicne it's not
> UNIX-related, and I've had little luck with newsgroups (seems my newsfeed
> is quite flaky).
>
> -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai(a)zepa.net ]
I'm punting this to the mailing list ONLY because Nickolai's news access
is limited. Can someone help him with the problem?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA07686
for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:10:09 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Mon Mar 9 19:11:02 1998
Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07681
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:10:02 +1100 (EST)
Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38])
by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23589;
Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:09:49 +0100 (MET)
Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
id KAA03042; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:11:03 +0100
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:11:02 +0100 (MET)
From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
cc: kolya(a)zepa.net, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 11/04 floppy problems
In-Reply-To: <199803090018.LAA09059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980309095043.2980C-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
NIkolai!
Your problem MIGHT be because somebody shuffled the cards for you!
There are some classical caveats when it comes to the UNIBUS based system.
a) There must be an uninterrupted grant chain all the way and no holes.
b) There are two types of slots. DMA (also called a MUD or Modified
Unibus Device) and NON DMA. Default is non DMA. To enable DMA you cut a strap
on the wirewrapped backplane. (*cringe*)...
This suggests that there are also two types of GRANT cards. One resembling
a dual QBUS grant card but with green handles and one very small "playing
card type" single card with no handle that can be (with force) inserted
backwards and thus burn the bus.
c) There must be a terminator card in the last position of the chain.
I am at a customer site right now and do not have access to my library so
I can not be more specific.. If you have any documentation handy, you should
be able to use above information and find the exact information you need.
If not, you should be able to locate the faulting device by "shortening"
the bus. You start with CPU and a mem card and install the terminator
directly after. See if you can deposit and examine stuff into RAM. Then
put in the device directly after the last MEM card and test it and so forth.
Eventually the system will fail and you have located the problem.
Either remove the problem or get back to us. =)
Note: With no documentation of the devices in question you have more problems.
Some UNIBUSes are standard UNIBUSes. Others are special UNIBUSes for special
device configurations.
The UNIBUS PDP11 (or VAX) is a challange for the technically interested
person. =)
Oh yes... You can bypass devices by using the UNIBUS cable (a long stiff
white flat cable with UNIBUS connectors in each end). Each UNIBUS sub bus is
connected with the previous with a UNIBUS continuity card that consists of
a short UNIBUS cable and two dual cards joined together to form one unit.
If you want to bypass a device, take out the continuity from the start and
end of the device, install a UNIBUS cable at the last position of the
previous sub bus system and the first in the sub bus after the bypassed
device.
UNIBUS cables, continuity cards and grants (and also the terminator) all
go in the same position across the bus and in no other place.
One error here and it is BURN baby BURN! =/
/Lars
On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Nickolai Zeldovich:
> > I'm having a somewhat interesting problem with my PDP-11.. I'm trying to
> > boot a 11/04 from a 8" floppy drive, but DX, DX0, and DX1 all make it hang
> > up (RUN light goes out). Would you know what this would mean? I'm not sure
> > if this question is really appropriate for the list, sicne it's not
> > UNIX-related, and I've had little luck with newsgroups (seems my newsfeed
> > is quite flaky).
> >
> > -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai(a)zepa.net ]
>
> I'm punting this to the mailing list ONLY because Nickolai's news access
> is limited. Can someone help him with the problem?
>
> Warren
>
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA08220
for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:45:12 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Binary-only PDP UNIX
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<Oh yes it does. Mine is running (with RL02s) as I type this...
<
<I wouldn't exactly describe it as "fast", but it's servicable. The syste
<(minus man pages) is on dl0: and user directories on dl1:. The system i
Ok a unique build, is that in the archive?
How about using a RQDX3 and rd52 or rd53 as its a bit more room than a
single RL?
<built for a "small machine", which makes a difference to the memory manag
<(no separate I&D spaces), and things like f77 and troff aren't there (nro
F77 is no loss but CC, vi and nroff are a must. Speed is not required.
<> suggest a way to get the images on to the RL02 using RT-11 I'm interest
<> I can kermit the files from the PC so that step is not a problem.
<
<Kermit-11 should do that for you, but watch the bad blocks.
Kermit would be running under RT-11 the all I'd be doing is copying a
tar.z file over or make the detar'd files over to files under rt-11
structures. I need more on genning a bootable image from RT-11.
While I'm comfortable in a lot of systems unix generally is not one
save for user level activity.
The only unix I have running currently is xenix on pro350 and linix
on PC. I can't say how useful either would be to this project.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19043
for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:58:30 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Thu Mar 5 17:59:48 1998
Received: from harrier.asiasys.com (asia.uznet.net [193.220.92.23])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19038
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:58:13 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from stacy@localhost)
by harrier.asiasys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00282
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:59:48 +0500
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:59:48 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199803050759.MAA00282(a)harrier.asiasys.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Hardware guru needed!
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi dear PUPS!
It is about one week gone from the mome I got
sufficiently powerful PDP-11. Before this I ran LSI-11/02 under RT-11
and couldn't think about unix. Those new machine is the
main reason for joining to this list for me.
It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option,
TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc.
I also have the complete BSD2.9 source distribution
in tar file and like to run all of the above.
Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok.
Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and
RQDX3 and all of that) and have very little docs about
how to set it correctly. When I tried to bring up the KDF with memory
at once KDF said : no memory :-] but it runs ok with
little 32K memory board from LSI-11/2 ! Seems to me that my MSV-11 boards
have wrong starting address settings or something...
Same story with RQDX3 - currently I have no RDx disks so I thought
that boot my system from RX50 is not a bad idea... I've plugged
standard 5 inch floppy to RQDX3 sig. dist. connector labeled "RX50"
and fired up the machine. Got nothing. I tried to investigate
what happens to bootstrap. I've detected that during init of
mscp controller it successfully undergoes steps 1 and 2 ( or maybe even 3)
but in next step it returns 0 in SA and bootstrap waits for eternity
when controller will enter next step... Looks like hardware fault, ha?
Then I tried to check my TQK70 board. It had nothing connected to it,
and I traced it's initialization sequence the same way. IT ALSO RETURNS ZERO
in 3rd or 4th init step!. Can anyone help with the above?
Sincerely yours - Stacy.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA19463
for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:38:35 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Binary-only PDP UNIX
by allisonp＠world.std.com
<The v7 comes on either rk05 or rl02 images.
<Earlier editions didn't know about rl02s.
Exactly my understanding and V7 doesn't run on pdp-11/23s though it is
runable on 11/73.
My interest if to have one of the many PDP-11 Qbus machines I have
running a nonDEC OS such as unix. The 11/23s would be a favored target
as I have a few of them but, devices compatable with binary versions
are not available to me.
I'll look at the archive for the RL02 images. IF there is anyone that can
suggest a way to get the images on to the RL02 using RT-11 I'm interested.
I can kermit the files from the PC so that step is not a problem.
<> Save for the rk05 image does not match my hardware (no rk05). Also sin
<> they are disk images the target disk would have to have the same bad bl
<> map or all havoc happens.
<
<Yup. These images were designed for emulators.
Understood, not much interest to me. Running a PDP-11 sim with two of
them behind me doesn't really do it for me. Running unix on a sim under
dos on a PC exceeds my grasp of reality. I'm the sort if I wanted unix
on the PC I'd install *BSD for 386/486 and skip the simulation. I think
Bob S. and friends did some great work though.
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12357
for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:25:05 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: PUPS Volunteers list
by allisonp＠world.std.com
< have a single 'master' source system and build and distribute from
< that).
For me that would be perfectly useless as the only PDP-11 compuler is the
DECUS-C and ti's far to minimal to crunch that. Chicken and egg. Right
now I need the chicken on my 11/73 before I can consider the sources
and then I have to configure enough storage to hold them.
< that everyone would be dancing with joy at being freed from binary
< only releases.
I sorta am but for me $100 might as well be $10,000.
<
< As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5
< images already available without requiring a source license at
Their problem is from what I can tell is they are not runable on my
11/73 with the hardware I have. There is that little problem of
transfering them (via RT-11?).
My config, call it a sanity test to see if there is an existant binary I
can run:
11/73 1mb non-pmi ram
DLV11j
RQDX3 rx33, rx52(x2) (rx53 available)
RX02
RLV12 and one RL02
TK50
I can swap a DHV-11 for the DLV11j.
I can put in 1 more meg of non-pmi ram.
The TK50 is shared with a VAX.
RT-11 V5 running.
There are no RKxxs available.
I expect I'll never be able to network the 11s I have, nor will I have
adaquate resources (Disk) to compile the kernel. I will not discuss the
11/23 or the pro350 sitting next to them as it's been implied they could
only run the oldest versions due to lack of I&D space.
Allison
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: PUPS Volunteers list
by allisonp＠world.std.com
< I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have
<volunteered to write CD-ROMs, cut tapes etc. so we can distribute the
<software covered by the up-coming SCO source license.
Query:
The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of
us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system?
Allison
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08018
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:36:21 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 08:36:47 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08013
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:36:18 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA17613 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:36:47 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032236.JAA17613(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Binary-only PDP UNIX
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:36:47 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803032232.AA27033(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 3, 98 05:32:54 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Allison J Parent:
> < I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have
> <volunteered to write CD-ROMs, cut tapes etc. so we can distribute the
> <software covered by the up-coming SCO source license.
>
> The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of
> us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system?
You can pick up binaries for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX for free,
as they are already covered by a SCO license. See
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt
If you also look at the PUPS Home Page
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS
you can pick up RK05 disk images for all three edition, as part of
Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09888
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:54:30 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Wed Mar 4 10:54:01 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA09883
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:54:23 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA29624; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:54:02 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803040054.AA29624(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Some PDP11 Q..
To: jorgen.pehrson(a)seinf.MAIL.ABB.com
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:54:01 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00(a)notestest.mail.abb.com> from "jorgen.pehrson(a)seinf.mail.abb.com" at Mar 2, 98 11:30:40 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed.
> ...
> And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I
> ...
> There're some (bad quality) pictures of the board at
> http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum/pics/pdp11-board1.jpg
I finally got a chance to look at the picture; the board looks to me like
an MTI MSV22, which is a Q-bus board. There's no way that it's a Unibus
board. Are you sure you've got an 11/84 there, and not a 11/83?
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10009
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:24:00 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Mar 4 11:17:18 1998
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10004
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:23:53 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from sms@localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA13880
for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:17:18 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:17:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803040117.RAA13880(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PUPS Volunteers list
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
> Query:
>
> The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of
> us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system?
If you don't plan on staying current with parts that change then
a binary only system might work. I can't see myself volunteering
to build binaries (especially kernels) for varying configurations.
The older, 'static' or frozen (for now), distributions can be run
binary only - but the traditional method of updating systems was
to either distribute diffs or replacement source modules.
One main reason for this, especially in the kernel (but also some
applications level stuff), is that the address space of a PDP-11 does
not allow the luxury of including all ways of doing something. For
example: the C library has to be build for either 'hosts' file or
resolver routines - can't do both. So someone's running a binary
only release but with a hosts file orientation. THey want updated
binaries but all my systems are resolver based - building new binaries
would be painful and time consuming. What happens when a system
include file changes and all (or many) of the binaries in the system
are affected - who's going to volunteer to recompile the system and
make a new CD for the folks who don't want to maintain current sources?
In the kernel arena it's even worse - who ever builds a kernel would
have to request a 'config' file (do you want 'quotas' or not, do you
want 'networking' and if so which ethernet card, do you want 1 or 2
MSCP controllers, and so on. Ick.) and custom build a kernel (can't
include _all_ possible devices, etc because it just won't fit). I
don't know about any one else but I'd rather not get into the
providing custom kernels and binaries.
From V5 on (I can't speak for earlier) you were expected to have a
source license (which thanks to SCO's help we now will have) and
install/maintain the system from those. Binary only setups were
extremely uncommon (except in shops with lots of machines and they'd
have a single 'master' source system and build and distribute from
that).
Configurability is very limited without sources and I'd have thought
that everyone would be dancing with joy at being freed from binary
only releases.
As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5
images already available without requiring a source license at all.
There's no need to pay the minimal $100 for the upcoming license if
all that's desired is a binary only system that's preconfigured for
a limited set of devices. (re)configuration takes sources.
So I guess the question is who's volunteering to build and distribute
the binary only kits? Not me ;-)
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10998
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:37:18 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 4 15:37:06 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA10993
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:37:10 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA10586;
Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:06 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA22358;
Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:06 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980304160706.51098(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:06 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS Volunteers list
References: <199803040117.RAA13880(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803040117.RAA13880(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 05:17:18PM -0800
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 17:17:18 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
>> Query:
>>
>> The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of
>> us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system?
>
> If you don't plan on staying current with parts that change then
> a binary only system might work. I can't see myself volunteering
> to build binaries (especially kernels) for varying configurations.
>
> (omitting detailled explanation)
>
> I
> don't know about any one else but I'd rather not get into the
> providing custom kernels and binaries.
All good reasons. I suppose I could give access to an emulator over
the net if anybody wants to do it themselves. This is not the way to
go if you have your own machine with enough storage, but it might be
if you're low on storage.
> As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5
> images already available without requiring a source license at
> all.
JOOI, where are these?
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12363
for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:25:12 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Some PDP11 Q..
by jorgen.pehrson＠seinf.mail.abb.com
Hi,
I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed.
It says this when it starts up:
Testing in progress - Please wait
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
starting system
.
__: ADA1: Load resident files
A.DU0: BOOT from @ 526 fp ch Memory size 2048kBytes v06.12.413
VISONIK
Building supervisory and managment system
Landis & Gyr, Building Control
__: INI0: Start of RSYS !
__:SU03: Update Common from SYSL !
__: SIX2: Dataset IM: Rebuild Index
__: SIX2: Dataset REA: Rebuild Index
__: SIX2: Dataset DM: Rebuild Index
__: MELD: Init STA-Pointer 43252
__: MELD: Init ZMS-Pointer 10774
It has controlled the ventilation system on a hospital of that can be of
any help.
Anyone knows what OS this could be?
And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I
look
at the cables it seems to be SCSI. And the controller for the streamer is
not manufactured
by DEC. (There's no DEC logo on it at least.)
It says B 01079 ISS.4 1984 CTS-11 CKK 3890 on the board. Is this a SCSI
controller board?
Can I connect SCSI disks to it or is it a streamer only interface?
There're some (bad quality) pictures of the board at
http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum/pics/pdp11-board1.jpg
There's a switch on the front of the CPU box that says "AUX ON | OFF". And
on the back of
the PSU there's a switch that says "remote | off | local". What function do
they have?
Thanks!
--
Jorgen Pehrson
jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se
http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00303
for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:48:25 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Mar 3 02:48:04 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA00298
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:48:18 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA23582; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:48:04 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803021648.AA23582(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Some PDP11 Q..
To: jorgen.pehrson(a)seinf.mail.ABB.com
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:48:04 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00(a)notestest.mail.abb.com> from "jorgen.pehrson(a)seinf.mail.abb.com" at Mar 2, 98 11:30:40 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed.
> __: ADA1: Load resident files
> A.DU0: BOOT from @ 526 fp ch Memory size 2048kBytes v06.12.413
> __: INI0: Start of RSYS !
> __:SU03: Update Common from SYSL !
It looks like a version of RSTS/E to me (but that's mainly because I
know it isn't RT-11 or RSX-11...)
> And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I
> look
> at the cables it seems to be SCSI. And the controller for the streamer is
> not manufactured
> by DEC. (There's no DEC logo on it at least.)
> It says B 01079 ISS.4 1984 CTS-11 CKK 3890 on the board. Is this a SCSI
> controller board?
It's almost certainly a QIC-02 controller, probably doing TS11 emulation.
The sure way to test if its doing TS11 emulation or not is to drop into
console ODT and see if there's something living at the TS11 CSRs at
17772520.
> There's a switch on the front of the CPU box that says "AUX ON | OFF". And
> on the back of
> the PSU there's a switch that says "remote | off | local". What function do
> they have?
These control the 3-wire DEC power controller bus.
Warren may want to correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't non-Unix issues
like these best taken to forums such as vmsnet.pdp-11 and comp.os.rsts ?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03193
for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:13 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 3 09:28:19 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03188
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:09 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08076; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:19 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803022328.KAA08076(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:19 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <19980302152605.46176(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Mar 2, 98 03:26:05 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Dion Johnson:
> I am going to give myself the go-ahead and not bother those busy
> legal folks any more.
Goodo.
> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders.
> Are VISA and AMEX enough cards to support? I should know pretty soon on this.
I suspect that would be fine.
> > Someone asked if a password-protected ftp site would be ok?
> > I thought that it might contravene the license. What's your opinion?
>
> As long as you know WHO has the password, that would be in accordance
> with the license, as I read it.
> -Dion
That's excellent news, Dion. I'll cc this to the PUPS mailing list.
Thanks again,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03683
for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:54:41 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Mar 3 11:54:30 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03678
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:54:35 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09048;
Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:24:32 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA14426;
Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:24:30 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980303122430.47237(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:24:30 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Dion Johnson <dionj(a)sco.COM>
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
References: <19980302152605.46176(a)sco.com> <199803022328.KAA08076(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803022328.KAA08076(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:28:19AM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 10:28:19 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Dion Johnson:
>> I am going to give myself the go-ahead and not bother those busy
>> legal folks any more.
>
> Goodo.
Great news!
>> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders.
>> Are VISA and AMEX enough cards to support? I should know pretty soon on this.
>
> I suspect that would be fine.
I would think that you should add MasterCard to that list, possibly
instead of Amexco.
Where do we go from here? Can we start to bombard you with
license applications?
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA03728
for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:13 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 3 12:13:33 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03723
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:09 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08617 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:33 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803030213.NAA08617(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:33 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980303122430.47237(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 3, 98 12:24:30 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> >> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders.
>
> I would think that you should add MasterCard to that list, possibly
> instead of Amexco.
>
> Where do we go from here? Can we start to bombard [Dion] with
> license applications?
> Greg
Dion sent me this suggestion:
So I guess what we have is this:
1. Prospective licensee gets the license from [PUPS] website.
2. He signs and sends to SCO and sends his $100 to SF PO box.
3. Someone here [at SCO] lets [PUPS] know that he is a licensee.
4. [PUPS] can send him the source code (and charge a fee for that
as you see fit).
SCO wants the license on paper. I asked him for the final license in a
form suitable for printing, e.g PostScript, PDF, Word format (gasp!).
Greg's suggestion about MasterCard went to Dion as well. I guess we just
have to sit back & wait until we get the word (and the final license)
from Dion.
As soon as I have all the details, there will be a description of the
steps you need to perform in order to get a license placed on the PUPS
home page.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA06396
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:32:22 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Mar 4 02:32:06 1998
Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA06391
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:32:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27])
by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16872;
Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA00644; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:06 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:06 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199803031632.KAA00644(a)hydrus.USask.Ca>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That
way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new
stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development
it might be good to know.
Neil
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06544
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:08:49 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Wed Mar 4 03:08:37 1998
Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA06539
for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:08:43 +1100 (EST)
Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA24509; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:08:37 -0800
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803031708.AA24509(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:08:37 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-Reply-To: <199803031632.KAA00644(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> from "Neil Johnson" at Mar 3, 98 10:32:06 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That
> way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new
> stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development
> it might be good to know.
As most all of the "new stuff" lately seems to be 2.11BSD-related,
this brings up a (probably silly) question of mine: what's the
relationship between the SCO license agreement and 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11BSD?
Will the SCO license be functionally equivalent to a WE/AT&T source
license (other than the per-machine limitations)? In other words,
are the 2BSD distributions "SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS" in the language
of the agreement?
Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have
CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to
transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation
have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words,
will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED
CPU"s?
Tim.
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07477
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:19 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 07:10:42 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07472
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:14 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA15973 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:42 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032110.IAA15973(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:42 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9803031708.AA24509(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 3, 98 09:08:37 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Tim Shoppa:
> > Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That
> > way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new
> > stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development
> > it might be good to know.
>
> As most all of the "new stuff" lately seems to be 2.11BSD-related,
> this brings up a (probably silly) question of mine: what's the
> relationship between the SCO license agreement and 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11BSD?
> Will the SCO license be functionally equivalent to a WE/AT&T source
> license (other than the per-machine limitations)? In other words,
> are the 2BSD distributions "SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS" in the language
> of the agreement?
2BSDs are definitely SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS as they are derived from
the listed products (6th, 7th Edition and 32V) and are 16-bit operating
systems.
> Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have
> CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to
> transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation
> have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words,
> will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED
> CPU"s?
My interpretation is this:
DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific
SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
SCO grants to LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and
nonexclusive right to use, in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, each SOURCE
CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this Agreement, solely
for personal use [..] and solely on or in conjunction with
DESIGNATED CPUs [...]. Such right to use includes the right to
modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to prepare DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT
based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT,
In my opinion, you can't USE the source code unless you have a CPU which
run the machine code which is produced by the source code. I can't prepare
a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT if I don't have a PDP-11 or an emulator of such.
I'd better check with Dion.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07528
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:11 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 07:16:37 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07523
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:08 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA16053 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:37 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032116.IAA16053(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:37 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803031632.KAA00644(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Mar 3, 98 10:32:06 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Neil Johnson:
> Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That
> way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new
> stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development
> it might be good to know.
This is a good idea, but I'd be happy for a licencee to opt out from the
list if they so desired.
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07770
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:48:48 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 07:49:10 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07765
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:48:42 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA17305 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:49:10 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032149.IAA17305(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Volunteers list
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:49:10 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have
volunteered to write CD-ROMs, cut tapes etc. so we can distribute the
software covered by the up-coming SCO source license.
If you had volunteered but didn't receive any email about it today, please
mail me back as I've missed you somehow.
Still waiting on Dion re the final license document and the questions
regarding Mastercard and `intermediate' CPUs.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07931
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:20:44 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 08:21:10 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA07926
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:20:41 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA17553 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:21:10 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032221.JAA17553(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: From Dion: intermediate CPUs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:21:10 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
> > Will those who have to
> > transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation
> > have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words,
> > will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED
> > CPU"s?
>
> I hope not!
> Warren
Right, that makes no sense at all. I suspect we (you and I) will
want to whip up a sort of cover letter for the license that
explains how to fill out the form and, as experience accumulates,
a FAQ, etc.
-Dion
----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07993
for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:33:15 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0
Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
by jimc＠zach1.tiac.net
> > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
>
> Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek'
> operations.
>
> Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the
> 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On
> the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb
> "zip like" (but not compatible) drive.
I don't know anything about larger Zip drives but Syquest makes the
EZFlyer 230MB which is compatible with the EZFlyer 135. I got one for
Christmas and love it. I _believe_ it's a bit faster than the Zip.
The EZFlyer data sheet is at http://www.syquest.com/products/d_ezflyer.html
in case anybody is interested.
- Jim
--
James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net
6 Munroe Drive
Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W
PGP: 7ADE9D99 Fingerprint: 8D AF 63 EC D3 51 14 3E F1 59 8A 68 32 63 3F 8E
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA27181
for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:46:55 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 07:47:07 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27176
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:46:51 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01813 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:07 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803012147.IAA01813(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:07 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the
PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for
the following reasons:
+ you can't easily write over the CD-ROM
+ impervious to magnetic fields
+ the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and
add new stuff to it.
+ the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I
pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative
fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive.
However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this.
+ we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot
make money on the CD-ROMs
Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux
distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase
new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive.
Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but
they are a _good_ way of doing so.
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27230
for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:09:37 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Mar 2 08:09:25 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27225
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:09:32 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07315;
Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:39:25 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA07427;
Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:39:25 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980302083925.10323(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:39:25 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
References: <199803012147.IAA01813(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803012147.IAA01813(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 08:47:07AM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
> re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the
> PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for
> the following reasons:
>
> + you can't easily write over the CD-ROM
> + impervious to magnetic fields
> + the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and
> add new stuff to it.
> + the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I
> pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative
> fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive.
> However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this.
> + we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot
> make money on the CD-ROMs
>
> Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux
> distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase
> new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive.
I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are
relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the
setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs
(writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated
volume.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27282
for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:10 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 08:29:23 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27277
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:06 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01996 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:23 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803012229.JAA01996(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:23 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980302083925.10323(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 2, 98 08:39:25 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > All,
> > re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the
> > PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method,
> > for the following reasons:
> I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are
> relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the
> setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs
> (writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated
> volume.
> Greg
Sorry, my fault. I use CD-ROM to mean anything which can be read in a CD-ROM
drive. That obviously includes CD-W, which is what I really mean here.
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27317
for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:20 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 08:38:33 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27312
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:17 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02051 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:33 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803012238.JAA02051(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:33 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803012228.OAA27094(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Mar 1, 98 02:28:21 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Chris Drake:
> >Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but
> >they are a _good_ way of doing so.
>
> Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are
> on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut
> some at work, but not if we're talking lots.
I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months.
I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the
individual workload down.
I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here.
People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the
entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image.
Oviously, people who do mirror the archive:
+ will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so,
+ must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed
letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed
email describing the license, before I can give access to
the archive.
Does this sound reasonable, everyone?
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27506
for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:17:32 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Mar 2 10:17:01 1998
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27501
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:17:24 +1100 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07479;
Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:47:02 +1030 (CST)
Received: (from grog@localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA07855;
Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:47:01 +1030 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980302104701.60748(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:47:01 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
References: <199803012228.OAA27094(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> <199803012238.JAA02051(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i
In-Reply-To: <199803012238.JAA02051(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 09:38:33AM +1100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 9:38:33 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Chris Drake:
>>> Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but
>>> they are a _good_ way of doing so.
>>
>> Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are
>> on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut
>> some at work, but not if we're talking lots.
>
> I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months.
> I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the
> individual workload down.
>
> I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here.
> People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the
> entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image.
>
> Oviously, people who do mirror the archive:
>
> + will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so,
As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think
this is still a valuable service.
> + must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed
> letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed
> email describing the license, before I can give access to
> the archive.
Right. Any further news about when this could happen?
> Does this sound reasonable, everyone?
Modulo my point above, yes.
Greg
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27526
for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:24:46 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 10:25:00 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27521
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:24:43 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06066 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:25:00 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803020025.LAA06066(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:25:00 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greg writes:
>> Oviously, people who do mirror the archive:
>> will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so,
>>
> As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think
> this is still a valuable service.
Apologies again, Greg. Yes cutting tapes will also be valuable,
esp. for people who have a PDP-11.
> Right. Any further news about when this could happen?
No, I'm waiting on feedback from Dion. He did say he had started the
process of making it a product, but I don't have an ETA for it at the
moment.
Many thanks again for volunteering!!
Warren
Received: (from major@localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27839
for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:04 +1100 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 11:41:16 1998
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27834
for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:40:59 +1100 (EST)
Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06698 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:16 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803020141.MAA06698(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Part of PUPS Archive via FTP
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:16 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
To show you what I'm thinking of for the CD-ROM version of the
PUPS archive, I've put the unlicensed parts up for anonymous ftp at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/PUPS_Archive/
I've kept the directory structure intact, but you won't find any files
that require a source license. I'd appreciate any comments. Note that
there's a directory called Trees missing. It will contain `exploded'
trees for v6, v7 and 2.11BSD.
The Lists directory is interesting: it contains tar vtf listings of all
tarballs in the archive, with added checksums so you can determine identical
files in multiple tarballs.
This is all rough cut at the moment, so don't treat anything as unchangeable.
Warren
27 years, 2 months
- 1
- 0