In article by David C. Jenner:
> It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
> archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
> covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
> DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
>
> So:
> 1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
> 2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
> aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
> (Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
> to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
> all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
> objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
> which the Ancient Unix license covers...
>
> Dave
If we could get DEC/Compaq to allow access to Pro/Venix by UNIX source
license holders, then yes I would certainly add it to the Archive. If
there's no source code, and SCO are happy, then it could go up for anon ftp.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Feb 18 09:18:40 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199902172318.KAA18083(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Help with regs on Pro serial ports
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:18:40 +1100 (EST)
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I'm trying to help get the kernel for the version of 2.9BSD ported to the
Pro-350. The patches supplied by Rick Macklem are slightly incomplete, e.g
there is no config shell script which knows about the new device drivers etc.
Anyway, one vital missing file is pcreg.h, which holds the structure
describing the registers of the serial ports on the Pro-350. By perusing
the file dev/pc.c, I've worked out that the struct looks something like:
struct pcdevice {
??? baud;
??? cdb;
??? csa;
??? csb;
??? csr;
??? dbuf;
??? mc0;
??? mc1;
??? mode;
??? stat;
}
where the fields are not in the correct order, and I have no idea what
C type each is. If anybody can help recreate this file, could they
email me?!
I've included below the C comments at the top of dev/pc.c.
If anybody has Rick Macklem's email address, could they pass that on too?
I will email him and see if he's got a more complete set of patches somewhere.
Many thanks in advance,
Warren
/*
* This driver handles the two serial ports on the back of the
* pro3xx system unit. Although not software compatible, they
* are handled as minor device 0 & 1 respectively, for the printer
* and communication port. Modem control is included but no sync
* serial support for the com. port.
* NOTE: The DSR line in the printer port is used for carrier
* detect so terminals or modems should be cabled accordingly.
* Local terminal cables should jumper DTR-CDT so that the carrier
* will appear to be up or PC_SOFTCAR defined and devs or'd with 0200.
* NOTE2: The interrupt service routines are as follows:
* plrint - printer port receive
* plxint - printer port transmit
* cmintr - communication port com. interrupt
* Modem transition interrupts are NOT used.
*/
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I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
pups archive.
"make unix" failed:
Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
I looked in the usr.tar from the distribution, and I don't see mbuf.h
anywhere.
Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Feb 17 15:15:02 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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Hi -
> I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> pups archive.
>
> "make unix" failed:
> Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
>
> I looked in the usr.tar from the distribution, and I don't see mbuf.h
> anywhere.
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
Steven Schultz
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Feb 17 15:26:09 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199902170526.QAA14818(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
In-Reply-To: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Feb 16, 1999 9:15: 2 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:26:09 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Hi -
>
> > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > pups archive.
> > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
>
> That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
>
> Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
>
> I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
>
> Steven Schultz
Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
'Night!
Warren
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Feb 17 16:00:45 1999
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From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
binary) to include different drivers, etc.
I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
unusable or missing in the set I have.
It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
So:
1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
(Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
which the Ancient Unix license covers...
Actually, I'm amazed I've gotten as far as I have with this, because
I've been pretty passive about finding it. It's only taken 2 years
so far.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > Hi -
> >
> > > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > > pups archive.
> > > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
> >
> > That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
> >
> > Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> > got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> > compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> > weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> > been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
> >
> > I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> > on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> > painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> > for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> > real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> > the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> > processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> > those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
> >
> > Steven Schultz
>
> Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
> I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
>
> 'Night!
>
> Warren
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:00:45 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
binary) to include different drivers, etc.
I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
unusable or missing in the set I have.
It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
So:
1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
(Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
which the Ancient Unix license covers...
Actually, I'm amazed I've gotten as far as I have with this, because
I've been pretty passive about finding it. It's only taken 2 years
so far.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > Hi -
> >
> > > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > > pups archive.
> > > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
> >
> > That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
> >
> > Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> > got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> > compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> > weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> > been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
> >
> > I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> > on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> > painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> > for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> > real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> > the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> > processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> > those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
> >
> > Steven Schultz
>
> Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
> I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
>
> 'Night!
>
> Warren
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Wed Feb 17 18:22:50 1999
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <36CA5B0D.8A2B2629(a)halcyon.com> (djenner(a)halcyon.com)
Subject: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:00:45 -0800
>From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
>
>Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
>to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
>VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
installed (also with original install media and docs).
>Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
>but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
>much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
>binary) to include different drivers, etc.
>
>I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
>disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
>unusable or missing in the set I have.
I have the following archives of Venix-related stuff that I snagged
from the net a few years back. If you think any of them might contain
what you're looking for, let me know and I'll give more detail about
their contents.
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 3833 Oct 17 1997 README
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 532 Oct 17 1997 README.VAX
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 30819 Oct 17 1997 RX50.notes
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 2530759 Oct 17 1997 Venix1.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 2503931 Oct 17 1997 Venix2.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 15817 Oct 17 1997 cathang.txt
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 332543 Oct 17 1997 mopimage.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 443 Oct 17 1997 nbsdrx50.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 897510 Oct 17 1997 nbsdrx50.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 155648 Oct 17 1997 pppd
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 193536 Oct 17 1997 pr0801eng.sys
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 14153 Oct 17 1997 raind112.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 6621 Oct 17 1997 rx50.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 81152 Oct 17 1997 teledisk.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 61440 Oct 17 1997 venix.tar
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 116 Oct 17 1997 venix1.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1119490 Oct 17 1997 venix1s.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1095824 Oct 17 1997 venix1u.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 424 Oct 17 1997 venix2.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1058970 Oct 17 1997 venix2s.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1145720 Oct 17 1997 venix2u.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 332362 Oct 17 1997 vnx2u2u5.zip
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Wed Feb 17 18:32:05 1999
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com> (sms(a)moe.2bsd.com)
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:02 -0800 (PST)
>From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
>
> I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
Sounds like fun. Any hints on the correct upgrade path to avoid this
lossage?
Better yet, would you be willing and able to upload a disk image or
tar file of an upgraded system to the PUPS archive (or directly to me
if it's not of general interest), so I could use that as a starting
point?
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Wed Feb 17 18:42:40 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:42:40 -0500 (EST)
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
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As already mentioned in previous messages, I'm working on getting
2.9BSD onto a Pro 350. I'm using 2.9BSD as a starting point because
it claims to support machines without split i/d. The 350 uses the
F-11 chipset, which I have read does not support split i/d.
I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
in a single 64k segment?
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Feb 18 00:35:30 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com (maximum entropy)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199902170822.DAA24861(a)zippy.bernstein.com> from "maximum entropy" at Feb 17, 99 03:22:50 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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| Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
| they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
| for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
| vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
| bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
| installed (also with original install media and docs).
My time playing with Pro's faded out before Venix 2 was available (free)
for me to try. I've played a fair bit with Venix 1.1 on both Pro 350's
and Pro 380's. The Venix 1 series I feel is basically V6 derived while
I understood the Venix 2 series was derived from Sys III.
About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
> The stuff I did went out on a Usenix distribution tape in about 1983/84
> and had to be merged into a 2.9BSD distribution. I did generate floppy
> sets for a few people, because that was the only easy way to get it
> installed. (The first install here was actually done by downloading the
> kernel over the serial port talking to the PDP 11 prom (ODS?).)
I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
-- Ken
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Feb 18 00:42:05 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902171442.JAA15916(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com (maximum entropy)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199902170842.DAA24887(a)zippy.bernstein.com> from "maximum entropy" at Feb 17, 99 03:42:40 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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| I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
| used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
| says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
| about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
| the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
| in a single 64k segment?
Have you been able to acquire the documentation for the DECNA card? I
think that is roughly what it is called. The Pro Ethernet card. A few
old timers like myself and Dan Lanciani talked years ago about running
things on a Pro and no-one seems to know much about this relatively
critical bit of documentation. Again referring to Rick Macklem's
correspondence (I believe I was asking him, again, about these docs):
> Well, the short answer is "I'm not sure what the answers are". At one
> point someone mentioned they were putting the Pro stuff into 2BSD, but
> I'm not sure if they actually did it. (The guys that used it the most
> had it running on a lab of Pro380s at Columbia U. (I think. It's the
> one right in NY city.)) His name was Charlie Kim (again, I think?) and
> did some stuff to it so that it worked reasonably well on a Pro380, but
> I have no idea how you might find him now. (It was a real dog on a Pro350
> because it didn't have separate I and D space.)
The rumors we were able to find all pointed to this place and person
WRT documentation for the ethernet card.
-- Ken
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Thu Feb 18 01:11:36 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:11:36 -0500 (EST)
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
>
>About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
>me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
>what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
Would you be able to send images (rx50 teledisk, or plain dd dumps) of
these disks to me or to the archive?
>I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
>see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
Those files aren't 100% complete. Excerpt of a mail I sent last night
to Warren Toomey:
#The instructions in boot.doc are mangled.
#The patches included are reversed, and didn't apply cleanly to one of
#the files (/usr/src/net/sys/sys/machdep.c). Also, it looks like the
#guy that produced that set of changes forgot to include his
#modifications to /usr/src/sys/conf/config, but I managed to hack
#together something that might work.
Then there's the fact that the 2.9 distribution won't even compile,
and the 2.9 upgrade patches are a nightmare...
Maybe I'll just stick to venix :-)
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Thu Feb 18 01:44:04 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:44:04 -0500 (EST)
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
>
>About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
>me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
>what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
Would you be able to send images (rx50 teledisk, or plain dd dumps) of
these disks to me or to the archive?
>I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
>see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
Those files aren't 100% complete. Excerpt of a mail I sent last night
to Warren Toomey:
#The instructions in boot.doc are mangled.d
#The patches included are reversed, and didn't apply cleanly to one of
#the files (/usr/src/net/sys/sys/machdep.c). Also, it looks like the
#guy that produced that set of changes forgot to include his
#modifications to /usr/src/sys/conf/config, but I managed to hack
#together something that might work.
Then there's the fact that the 2.9 distribution won't even compile,
and the 2.9 upgrade patches are a nightmare...
Maybe I'll just stick to venix :-)
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Thu Feb 18 02:11:24 1999
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171442.JAA15916(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
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>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST)
>
>Have you been able to acquire the documentation for the DECNA card? I
I haven't looked for it. The DECNA is optional, and my Pro doesn't
have it. All Pro's came with an AUI port, but without the card it
doesn't do anything.
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Thu Feb 18 02:11:12 1999
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From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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To: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
CC: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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I haven't tried the 2.9 stuff at all on a Pro. I have had it
running on an 11/23+ (w/binary license) for 10 years. The
problem is the networking, as you have found.
Venix/Pro 1.1 and 2.0 run just fine on the Pro 380, and it's
pretty painless to install. I have distribution disks for
Pro/Venix 1.1, but the install disk has apparently been
overwritten with the 2.0 installation disk. And my distribution
for 2.0 is missing a couple of original disks; I have copies of
those disks, but they get read errors.
I guess the 2.9 stuff would be interesting if you got it to
work on the Pro, especially if you got networking to work.
I don't have any docs on the DECNA, but they must exist. It's
probably pretty close to the DEQNA.
Dave
Ken Wellsch wrote:
>
> | Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
> | they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
> | for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
> | vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
> | bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
> | installed (also with original install media and docs).
>
> My time playing with Pro's faded out before Venix 2 was available (free)
> for me to try. I've played a fair bit with Venix 1.1 on both Pro 350's
> and Pro 380's. The Venix 1 series I feel is basically V6 derived while
> I understood the Venix 2 series was derived from Sys III.
>
> About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
> me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
> what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
>
> > The stuff I did went out on a Usenix distribution tape in about 1983/84
> > and had to be merged into a 2.9BSD distribution. I did generate floppy
> > sets for a few people, because that was the only easy way to get it
> > installed. (The first install here was actually done by downloading the
> > kernel over the serial port talking to the PDP 11 prom (ODS?).)
>
> I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
> see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
>
> -- Ken
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Feb 18 02:15:01 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:15:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902171615.IAA02324(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Hi
> Sounds like fun. Any hints on the correct upgrade path to avoid this
> lossage?
Oh, it's not _completely_ irrecoverable and is "fun" in a perverse
way.
First go thru all of the executable directories (/bin, /usr/bin,...)
and identify all of the overlaid executables and save copies of them.
Shouldn't be too many but the important one is 'ex'/'vi'. A number
of programs rely on using 'ex' scripts to edit generated files (the
kernel makefiles are _good_ examples;)), and so on. Having an older
copy of 'ex'/'vi' is the main thing I remember as saving the day.
> Better yet, would you be willing and able to upload a disk image or
> tar file of an upgraded system to the PUPS archive (or directly to me
Oh, I have no 2.9 systems - this was all done 10 years ago. The
systems I run now use MSCP/TMSCP devices and 2.9 lacks support
for those.
Steve
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Feb 18 02:32:00 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:32:00 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902171632.IAA02404(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
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Hi -
> From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
> I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
> used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
> says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
> about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
> the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
> in a single 64k segment?
Oh, support was NOT removed. Non-split executables (magic number
0407 and 0410) will still run.
The kernel will not fit - without split I/D it is impossible to
create a /unix image that fits within a single 64kb (actually 48kb
since the kernel stack takes 1 segment and the 'u' area takes
another) address space.
I actually went thru the exercise once (2.10 era) of creating a bare
bones kernel that would fit in - at least the linker said it would.
That was only done by ripping out lots of stuff - no networking, no
statistics gathering, almost no drivers, etc. Never 'ran' it though
since there seemed to be little point in such a stripped down system.
Even V7 was hard pressed to run on a non-split machine! In fact there
was a paper written about shoehorning V7 onto an 11/40 and the hoops
that needed to be jumped thru. Not sure but that document might be
in the /usr/doc tree of one of the PUPS Distributions hierarchy.
Steven
My new address is:
13444 Euclid Ave. Apt. 215
East Cleveland, OH 44112
USA
My new phone # is 216-761-3656 (voice mail not set up yet, will be done in a
couple of days).
I'm still not quite done with all move-related work, so it will be a few more
days before I catch up with my E-mail.
My hardware is laid out a lot better at the new place than at the old one, so
when I'm done hooking everything up, I'll have much better work conditions for
my Project. Also the new place is physically closer to the building where all
Cleveland ISPs are located, reducing the cost of leased lines and increasing
the probability of me getting one some day.
With the hardware taking up most of the space, I originally thought that my
apartment would look like Agent Mulder's, but it actually ended up being more
like Agent Scully's. Oh well, her place is pretty nice too, and so is mine now.
Just a reminder to all Quasijarus Project folks living in the USA, be sure to
watch the X-Files this evening. They'll finally tell us what really happened to
Mulder's sister, who is the cigarette-smoking man, and all the other cool
stuff.
Special Agent Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 216-761-3656
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Feb 3 11:35 PST 1999
> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:11:56 -0800 (PDT)
> From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
> To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: MicroVAX I console port question.
> Mime-Version: 1.0
>
> Off-topic, but maybe somewhat related to MicroPDP-11's... I've got a
> MicroVAX I in a BA23 enclosure. I'm presently a bit thrown by the serial
> console port. I'm used to the 9pin MicroVAX II ports. From what I've
> been told, the DB25-M connector for the console requires a special serial
> cable for connecting the MicroVAX I up to a terminal. A null modem cable
> is not adequate.
My MicroVax (I and only) handbook vintage 1984 says the cable is a "BC22D-10".
VAX Systems and Options Catalog Oct 1984 describes the BC22D-10 as
"A fully shielded null modem cable". Two DB25F connectors, 6 wires.
The pins in use are 1,2,3,6,7,20. I would expect that "null modem"
means (from one end to the other) connect 2-3, 3-2, 7-7, 6-20, 20-6.
The implication is that the computer might need to see DTR asserted
before it talks to the terminal.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Feb 4 07:24:36 1999
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From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: MicroVAX I console port question.
In-Reply-To: <199902032037.MAA03843(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
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On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote:
> My MicroVax (I and only) handbook vintage 1984 says the cable is a "BC22D-10".
>
> VAX Systems and Options Catalog Oct 1984 describes the BC22D-10 as
> "A fully shielded null modem cable". Two DB25F connectors, 6 wires.
>
> The pins in use are 1,2,3,6,7,20. I would expect that "null modem"
> means (from one end to the other) connect 2-3, 3-2, 7-7, 6-20, 20-6.
>
> The implication is that the computer might need to see DTR asserted
> before it talks to the terminal.
Or given that everything seems to be fine on my end null modem cable-wise,
it's possible that something more serious is wrong with my MicroVAX I.
Does your handbook list what a flashing "1" LED error code means?
I'll double-check my cabling as well.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 5 05:07:56 1999
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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:07:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Memory Management
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On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Erin W. Corliss wrote:
> The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
> scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
> management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
> segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
> range somewhere)?
I haven't seen anyone answering this, so here I go...
Reg. Addr.
MMR0 777572
MMR1 777574
MMR2 777576
MMR3 772516
UIPAR 777640-777656
UDPAR 777660-777676
UIPDR 777600-777616
UDPDR 777620-777636
SIPAR 772240-772256
SDPAR 772260-772276
SIPDR 772200-772216
SDPDR 772220-772236
KIPAR 772340-772356
KDPAR 772360-772376
KIPDR 772300-772316
KDPDR 772320-772336
xy in xyP?R is:
x: U - User
S - Supervisor
K - Kernel
y: I - Instruction
D - Data
PAR is Page Address Register
PDR is Page Description Register
Okay, so for the layout of the registers...
MMR0:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! \-/ ! \---/ +-- Enable relocation
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! +------ Page number
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! +---------- Page address space I/D
! ! ! ! ! ! ! +------------- Page mode
! ! ! ! ! ! +---------------- Instruction completed
! ! ! ! ! +------------------ Maintenance mode
! ! ! ! +-------------------- Enable memory management trap
! ! ! +-------------------------- Trap-Memory management
! ! +---------------------------- Abort-Read only access violation
! +------------------------------ Abort-Page length error
+-------------------------------- Abort-Non resident
The page info is for when a trap/fault occurs, and tells in which page it
occured.The rest should be pretty obvious.
MMR1:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\-------/ \---/ \-------/ \---/
! ! ! +---- Register number
! ! +------------ Amount changed (2 compl.)
! +-------------------- Register numbe
+---------------------------- Amount changed (2 compl.)
Low byte is written first, and this register tells how much registers have
changed part way through an instruction, which needs to be undone to start
the intruction again.
MMR2:
Virtual address of instruction where fault occured.
MMR3:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! +--- Enable user D space
! ! ! +----- Enable supervisor D space
! ! +------- Enable kernel D space
! +----------- Enable 22-bit mapping
+------------- Enable unibus map
If 22-bit mapping isn't enabled, the machine will be in 18-bit addressign
when MMU is enabled. Unibus-mapping is something I'll skip for now. You
need it for DMA on a 22-bit unibus machine only.
Note that at the end of a MMU trap/abort, MMR0 bit 15-12 must be cleared
for MMR1 and MMR2 to become active again.
>From a virtual address (VA), you get to the physical address (PA) like
this:
APF=VA[15:13]
DF=VA[12:0]
PA=PAR(APF)*64+DF
The PDR looks loke this:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\-----------/ ! ! ! \---/
! ! ! ! +----- ACF
! ! ! +--------- ED
! ! +--------------- W
! +----------------- A
+------------------------- PLF
ACF - Access Control Field
000 - Non resident; abort on all accesses
001 - Read only; abort on write attempt, memory mgmt trap on read
010 - Read only; abort on write attempt
011 - Unused; abort on all accesses - reserved for future use
100 - Read/Write; memory mgmt trap upon completion of read or write
101 - Read/Write; memory mgmt trap upon completion of write
110 - Read/Write; no system trap/abort action
111 - Unused; abort on all accesses - reserved for future use
A - Access to page has been made.
W - Page has been written to since PAR/PDR was loaded
ED - Expansion direction
PLF - Page length field
Now, have fun...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Off-topic, but maybe somewhat related to MicroPDP-11's... I've got a
MicroVAX I in a BA23 enclosure. I'm presently a bit thrown by the serial
console port. I'm used to the 9pin MicroVAX II ports. From what I've
been told, the DB25-M connector for the console requires a special serial
cable for connecting the MicroVAX I up to a terminal. A null modem cable
is not adequate.
First, I just wanted to verify that this is correct. So far I haven't
been able to access a console prompt using either a null modem cable, or a
straight through cable. So either the system isn't working correctly, or
I need to get the cable right. Secondly, if it does require a special
cable, then what are the pinouts for that cable?
I'm guessing that aside from the processor itself, the MicroVAX I is
probably a lot closer in design to its contemporary MicroPDP-11 systems.
So I'm hoping that the 25pin console port is simillar to what some of you
have worked with on your Q-bus PDP-11's.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have got some hardware I have to get rid of by the end of February, and it's
free to any of you guys if you are willing to come and pick it up in Cleveland,
Ohio, USA.
Last November I received a load of equipment from one company here in
Cleveland. It was a complicated network of CPUs and peripherals of all makes
and models put together by Xerox and intended to be used as a dedicated
document processing system. The CPUs included one VAX, three unidentifiable
towers, and a bunch of PCs. I'm using the VAX and all disk and tape drives
myself for my own purposes, and I'm selling the PCs, but still I've got those
three unidentifiable towers and three very funky monitors that were attached to
them. There is also a very funky laser printer attached to one of them. Given
that the VAX and all disk and tape drives have been taken out of the equation,
it's unlikely that the rest of the stuff can still be used for that dedicated
document processing whatever thing, but the towers have some apparently generic
controller boards in them (VME or something like that) and other parts that can
be raided for. Who knows, maybe even the CPUs are standard (probably some 68K),
in which case someone who knows more about this than I do (NULL) may be able to
actually use these machines for something.
The only identification on this equipment are the Xerox model numbers. One of
the towers was called NS8090 File Server. It had an external SCSI hard disk and
an Exabyte tape drive, but I've reused these for my own purposes. The other two
towers were called 6085 workstations, and they were diskless from the beginning
(as far as I can tell they don't have any mass storage controllers). All three
have monitors with very funny connectors. Aside from the Xerox model numbers
which tell me absolutely nothing, there are no hints whatsoever as to what the
CPU architecture is and all that. All towers have AUI Ethernet ports.
The laser printer is called NS8000 Laser CP, and it was attached to the tower
that was called the NS8090 File Server. The connectors are 25-pin like the
serial and parallel ones, but they have slide locks like on AUI. These slide
locks and the fact that the printer was apparently never intended to be
connected to anything except an "NS8090 File Server" suggest that the printer's
interface is not parallel or serial, but something very funny.
It has been suggested to me that I take the boxes apart, ID as many boards as
possible, and try to sell/donate them to whoever finds them useful (and the
cabinets and such would probably have to be scrapped). However, the thing is,
I don't really have time for all this, and it's naive to think that any of this
stuff has any significant cash value.
Right now I'm in the process of moving to another (cheaper) apartment in
another part of Cleveland, and really don't feel like hauling that junk around
with me. I have got these three CPU towers, three monitors, and one laser
printer, all absolutely unidentifiable, that I have to get rid of. Given what a
great job I've done at identifying and describing this stuff, it would be naive
for me to expect to sell it. Therefore, I'm giving it away for free to anyone
who is willing to come and pick it up. I have to vacate this apartment by the
end of February, and if no one picks this stuff up, I will have no choice but
to throw it in the big dumpster, which would be a great pity if this stuff is
actually useful for something.
Once again, I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, USA.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Wed Feb 3 00:52:35 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902021452.JAA29320(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Old UNIX file system formats
To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:52:35 -0500 (EST)
Cc: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990201095832.20104A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at Feb 1, 99 10:01:14 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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I shouldn't have posted without doing the proper research. I took a
gander at PUPS/Tools/Filesys/traverse.c.gz which I'm quite sure is one
of the tools I wrote when I was finally able to figure out the contents
of that V6 tape I had (also with no docs - it was such irony to look
at the setup document on the tape *after* figuring the format out that
clearly describes the block layout 8-). I notice traverse.c.gz does
indeed use the LARG flag, not HUGE. Since few care, I'll not bother
extracting enough of Venix 1.x to see whether that is where I met the
HUGE flag or it is just my faulty memory... -- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Feb 1 13:06:04 1999
|
| Hmm... I wrote a disk image editor in Visual Basic without knowing the
| specs for the filesystem -- I set it up so that if the 9th pointer is zero
| and the filesize is greater than one block, then it assumed the block
| pointed to by the 8th pointer was a list of blocks in the file.
Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
> provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
> All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
> is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that
> unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model.
How is this relevant to NetBSD/vax? Remember, architectures other than VAX do
not exist as far as I am concerned, so when I say "NetBSD", I always always
always mean NetBSD/vax.
> I don't think PUPS
> is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.
It is necessary, however, to protect the innocent novice users from falling
into the claws of that predator.
> To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
> history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
> and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
> It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
> the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's
> graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
> but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
> (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
> etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
> in some of the details.
First of all, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of binary
compatibility between 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, and Ultrix.
Second, the development didn't "split" into PDP-11 and VAX. Instead, the
MAINSTREAM UNIX system _CONVERTED_ from PDP-11 to VAX, and did so at AT&T,
before the torch was turned over to UC Berkeley. 2BSD was not mainstream UNIX.
In fact, it was not UNIX at all, since it didn't contain a kernel, only a
patchkit of userland enhancements. Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 10:50:36 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129195036.A7942(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
>
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
> beautifully.
>
> > There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
>
> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
> you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> diskless peering-at toy.
That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
happen to disagree?
Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
Thor
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jan 30 11:09:36 1999
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Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <19990129195036.A7942(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jan 29, 1999 7:50:36 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> > diskless peering-at toy.
>
> That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
> responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
> in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
> can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
> time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
>
> Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
> express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
> happen to disagree?
>
> Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
> mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
> Thor
Ok, this is a warning to anybody who posts a reply to the thread above
in the mailing list. If you say something which is religious, zealous
or inflammatory, then I will issue a warning to you in the list. 2nd
time I issue a warning, I will start to moderate your postings.
This whole issue is like Linux vs. FreeBSD. The BEST answer to the
question: which is the best? is to get the user to try both out, and
they can make their own choice. As several people have explained, the
choice is a combination of technical issues AND aesthetics. And we all
have different tastes.
So respect each others tastes, and don't hassle them.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jan 30 11:21:28 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901300121.MAA09827(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Is 2.xBSD `approved'?
In-Reply-To: <199901300010.TAA04883(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 29, 1999 7:10:23 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
> opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
> really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
>2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
> I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.
I hate to say this, but 2.xBSD, where x was 8, 9 and 10, was developed with
the involvement of several people at the CSRG, e.g Keith Bostic, Mike Karels,
Kirk McKusick. I'm sure Steven Schultz could give me some more names.
Although 2.xBSD is definitely not the branch which got the most attention,
I wouldn't say it was unauthorised, unapproved nor unblessed.
Actually, given that the CSRG is now disbanded, it is fair to say that
both 2.11BSD and 4.3-Quasijarus are in exactly the same boat: side branches
of the main BSD development, maintained by individuals who were not members
of the original CSRG.
Now, let us return to the more important issue of helping each other out,
rather than getting at each other. All UNIXes are worthy topics, and do
not deserve ridicule.
Warren
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Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
> both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
> pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
> chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
Correct.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Sat Jan 30 08:54:33 1999
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 EST."
<199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:33 +0000
From: Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
>A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
>diskless peering-at toy.
I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that
unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model. I don't think PUPS
is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.
>4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
>this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
>our team.
>
>> It will also run 4.3BSD
>> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
>> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
>> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
>> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
>
>The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
>since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
>maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
>else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
I don't feel that there is any need to be silly and pretentious
here; techinical arguments may be of interest, but `I'm right and
I know I am' arguments are just childish.
To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's
graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
(especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
in some of the details.
Alan Bain
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
beautifully.
> There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
diskless peering-at toy.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
our team.
> It will also run 4.3BSD
> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
will run perfectly atop of an Ultrix kernel.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to
disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to
recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed
from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to
routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is
KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any
SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the
drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked.
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the
Quasijarus mailing list.
If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn
to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the
Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall
compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 07:41:53 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000(a)world.std.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>; from Pat Barron on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500
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On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
>
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. The
people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I
think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck.
There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. It will also run 4.3BSD
binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models
less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60
work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent. For
the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries
may help a bit.
Hope this helps.
THor
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Sat Jan 30 08:07:36 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901292207.RAA18899(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000(a)world.std.com> from "allisonp(a)world.std.com" at Jan 29, 99 04:06:28 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
-- Ken
> [...] There are however issues in that the hard disk
> interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
> some performance degrdation. [...]
>
> Allison
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