Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon.
Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then
we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its
buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the
necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is
the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer
to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to
add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig,
I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up.
Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost
every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close
4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD
ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special
"emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for
4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the
userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better
than pure Ultrix.
> But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.
No, this is not my definition.
> I
> want support for the hardware I own
This will be done if you are willing to cooperate.
> and features like mmap() and NFS.
Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're
> complaining about.
Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only.
4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse.
> You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
> of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release?
I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release,
it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe,
I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either.
> As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the
current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's
all.
> I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
> like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in
> the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
> number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
> did.
I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just
because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't
mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me
himself.
> It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.
Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and
other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds
instead of words.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
> by extension, Mike Karels?
Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against
him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm
assuming that he has nothing against it either.
What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
universally agreed to be unethical.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> wrote:
> I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years.
1995 - 1980 = 15
1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an
actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements.
If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years.
> That
> is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
> such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
> You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.
That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.
Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a
contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he
earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in
preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal
maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e.,
maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions.
I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not
assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never
actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging
my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago.
When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I
was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on
their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal
maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If
you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its
maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so
that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words?
> And since the core team of BSDI today
> consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
> keep calling their work BSD ?
No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested,
they have no authority to bar others from doing the same.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
> You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.
But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I
suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and
will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been
using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly
decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using
it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in
full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is
still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the
Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer
version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to
modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of
becoming the new principal maintainer.
> > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents
> > of University of California.
>
> Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley
> License.
I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I
can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and
everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these
rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any
agreements that they could terminate.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Jan 26 13:20:46 1999
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Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
> because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
> original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
> twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I
> suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and
> will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been
> using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly
> decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using
> it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in
> full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is
> still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the
> Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer
> version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to
> modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of
> becoming the new principal maintainer.
Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ...
I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of
people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted)
that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That
is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.
BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for
the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system
BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect
the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against
any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the
BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made
contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today
consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody
(including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:42:06 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> supposed to be driven.
>
When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even
run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I
want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system
you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree
about this.
> > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should
> > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> > set is horrifying to contemplate.
>
> Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD
> to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of
> arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like
> 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup
> systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe.
You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I'm just asking
that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to
distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix.
>
> > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
>
> Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As
I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
[...]
> First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and
> authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems
> Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could
> conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely
> confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that.
I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in
the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
did. But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it.
> Check out the Quasijarus features page:
>
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html
>
> So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less
> than a month ago.
It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.
Thor
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:43:58 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245(a)rek.tjls.com>
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
>
> > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.
>
> But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
> because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
> original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
by extension, Mike Karels?
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>From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Tue Jan 26 23:27:15 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST)
From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518(a)world.std.com>
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Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
the orginial distribution
The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
etc..
Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
Thanks alot,
Alex
*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu
*********************************
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Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.
That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even yours. BSDI has
no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents of University of
California. The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted
modification and distribution of modified versions. Incrementing the version
number is one of the most natural operations a developer modifying the system
can do. If I were to use CSRG's final 1995 code as my starting point, I would
indeed call my system 4.5BSD, and I would have the full right to do so. The
only reason I do not and cannot call my system 4.5BSD, 5BSD, or whatever is
because I'm tmachining the SCCS tree back to 1988, nullifying 4.4BSD.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 18:49:16 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 3:40:40 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
>
>> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
>> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.
>
> That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even
> yours.
You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.
> BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents
> of University of California.
Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley
License.
> The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted
> modification and distribution of modified versions.
Precisely.
Greg
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> encourage you to do it, I suppose.
You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
supposed to be driven.
> All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should
> a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> set is horrifying to contemplate.
Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD
to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of
arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like
4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup
systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe.
> Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
> History is history.
Yes, history is history, and I respect it as such. I'm not trying to abuse my
write access to the 4BSD collection and maliciously modify some preserved tape
image without anyone's knowledge. However, there is nothing in the world that
prevents a developer from creating a new version of system from an old one. If
there is an SCCS file with deltas ranging from 1.1 to 7.16, there is absolutely
nothing in the world preventing a developer with legitimate authorized write
access to that file from checking in delta 7.17. I am a legitimate authorized
Berkeley UNIX developer (actually the principal one at the present time). My
title as the principal maintainer has been legitimized and blessed by the
previous CSRG maintainer.
> Pretending
> to be an organization which doesn't exist...
First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and
authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems
Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could
conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely
confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that.
> [...] gets very little useful work done.
Check out the Quasijarus features page:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html
So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less
than a month ago.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Dear VAX users,
Due to the storm of protests, the method of distribution of VAX EPROM upgrades
has changed from the PUPS archive to direct uuencoded E-mail. If you require an
EPROM upgrade for your VAX in order to run a UNIX software distribution
obtained from me, please contant me via ARPA Internet SMTP mail and I will send
you the EPROM image, compressed and uuencoded. I currently have the images for
KA650-B V1.2 and KA42 SCSI/MFM daughterboard.
The VAX odds and ends directory in the PUPS archive will still contain the
soft-loaded microcode files and booters, which have already been freely
distributed with different VAX UNIX systems (either 4.3BSD-* or BSD
derivatives like MIT's Athena-4.3BSD).
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to
establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for
every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our
extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run
on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is
below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on
730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also
be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I
haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early
microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs
UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is
UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note
that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage
of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those
who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of
people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work.
Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode
updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of
DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon
UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP
tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself,
but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to
be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or
look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA
and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the
older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software
interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't
support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how
hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you
think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather
than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's
much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface)
and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are
getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network
card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of
all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can
just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a
UNIX-supported DEBNI!
The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want
to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware
upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it
would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX
UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting
support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 14:43:10 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com>
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On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.
>
> See my previous posting.
>
> > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> > from CSRG.
>
> You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
> CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
> existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
> tape was pressed.
>
> > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?
>
> You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
> on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
> point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
> matter.
>
> > Is it feasible
> > to do so now?
>
> I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
> 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.
>
> > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> > VAX, using the old VM system?
>
> I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
> definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
> kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
> porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.
>
> > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> > was the primary development platform, right?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?
>
> Yes.
>
> You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
> bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point
My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG". If I were into that kind of thing
I'd just join Jews For Jesus. My interest is pretty much purely historical.
> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
>
> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.
I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
encourage you to do it, I suppose.
All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should
a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
set is horrifying to contemplate.
Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending
to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
done. At least that's my personal take on it.
I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the
"True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were
you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon. But it's a silly
thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that
issue. Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP
versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs. Please don't tempt me with a discussion
of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about
_my_ religious hot buttons. :-)
--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 14:56:59 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
>> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
>> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
>> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
>>
>> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
>> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
>> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
>> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
>> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
>> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
>> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.
>
> All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should
> a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> set is horrifying to contemplate.
>
> Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
> nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending
> to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
> done. At least that's my personal take on it.
Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.
Greg
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 15:01:02 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image)
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On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK?
I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that
there are laws relating to proprietary code. It's not practical to
break these laws, no matter what you may think of them.
> One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest
> available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX
> system.
Fine. Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode. I'd guess
that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses. But don't
endanger others with your views on legality.
Greg
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>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Wed Jan 13 16:13:50 1999
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No problem!
At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
>
>Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
>of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick
Copeland
>has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.
>
>Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
>_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If
not,
>please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
>take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).
>
>Michael Sokolov
>TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
>4.3BSD-* Maintainer
>Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
>Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
>ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
>TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
>Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
>
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.
See my previous posting.
> What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> from CSRG.
You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
tape was pressed.
> Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?
You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
matter.
> Is it feasible
> to do so now?
I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.
> I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> VAX, using the old VM system?
I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.
> I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> was the primary development platform, right?
Yes.
> Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?
Yes.
You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point
in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.
BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned
this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous
maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and
architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and
others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private
E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected.
I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain
what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear
about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line.
The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this:
V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD
(UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael
Sokolov).
For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are
several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True
UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is
because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the
True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s
UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating
from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the
torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of
December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm
carrying it into the next millennium.
Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:20 +1100 (EST)
<> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
<
<The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
<not have VAX ones too?
Yes but, not copyrighted firmware. The KA650 B V1.2 firmware is not
released or granted publication that I know of and the straw horse of,
"well, PDP-xx is here" is not the issue.
<BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Jus
<look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at t
There is a distinct difference between DEC contributed and the KA650 rom
image.
<fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's
<copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX an
<Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our gro
<(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care
<Ancient DEC.
It is neither the point nor applicable. It's a specious arguement in an
attempt to not respect the copyrighted firmware on the CPU card that is
not distributed. The fact that DEC and unix go well is not the issue
either.
<And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally
<recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which desp
<its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BS
<distributions).
I doubt that the KA650 bootrom image was in there as original distribution.
If the system is a KA650 it would be available on the system and if it is
not it's meaningless. My comment earlier was directly and specifically
aimed at the KA650 B V1.2 Eprom image.
The problem is that failure to respect the copyrights and ownerships of
any code, especially firmware could lead to vendors taking a future
hostile stance to the work of PUPS. That would be very undesireable.
Allison
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