[pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?

Hi, I'm having problems compiling some large-ish programs on 2.11BSD, for example MH. Even when putting *everything* on overlays, I still get an error: [ejb@styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z forw.o -Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z distsbr.o -Z ../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z ../zotnet/libzot.a -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0) [ejb@styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP? -larne- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA56896 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:01:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA56892 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:01:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3JNlMq22283 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; Message-Id: &lt;200104192347.f3JNlMq22283(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - It has been eons and eons since I attempted MH and I can't remember if I gave up or finally got something to work (shows how long its been ;)). Hmmm, I grep'd the current source to 'ld' and couldn't find the message "problem 2: ...". I do remember that being present during the debugging of 'ld' when the long symbol names (the "string table" aka 4.3BSD a.out format) capability was being developed. That suggests that 'ld' might be out of date. The answer to the 'Maximum PDP-11 executable size?' question is fairly length and a bit involved ;). Assuming split I/D: Short answer: 120KB to 904KB Long answer: without overlays there is one 64KB code segment and one 56KB data segment giving 120KB for a non overlaid program. In practice if a program hits 56KB out of 'ld' then there's no room for malloc() and the program may link but it won't run ;( For overlaid programs there is still but one 56KB data segment (the top 8KB is for the stack) but now the code can be arranged differently: There is a maximum of 15 overlays and there can be no 'gaps' (zero length/empty overlays between populated overlays). BASE OVERLAYSIZE TOTALTEXT 8KB 56KB * 15 840KB 16KB 48KB * 15 736KB 24KB 40KB * 15 624KB 32KB 32KB * 15 512KB 40KB 24KB * 15 400KB 48KB 16KB * 15 288KB 56KB 8KB * 15 176KB In reality the kernel probably would choke on the first several cases, and even if it didn't that large of a program would cause severe swapping. Most overlaid programs on the system ('vi' for example) use either the base=48KB or base=56KB layout. I think 'kermit' might use the 40KB base segment. The "tsize" error would indicate that the code size summing had an overflow - that was a bug at one time and was later fixed, which again suggests that the 'ld' is out dated somehow. If 'ld' was able to create 'xforw' try doing a "size xforw" on it and seeing how far it got - perhaps a clue can be gathered that way. You may need to usually terminate the overlay list with a -Y - I don't believe it's "required" though. -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Y ../config/version.o Couple things to try. Use 'size' on the .o (and/or .a) files to see how big things are - add them up and see if things start overflowing 16 bits. There was an overflow bug in ld's size computations - it was fixed by using a 'long' in a couple places to detect wraparound. What version of 2.11 (should be in the first couple lines of /VERSION) are you using? Sure feels like 'ld' is old and having problems that were fixed later on. Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA57165 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:57:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (pc62-oxf1.cable.ntl.com [62.254.132.62]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA57161 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:57:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from ejb(a)leguin.org.uk) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (klamath [127.0.0.1]) by klamath.leguin.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id BAA17554; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:48:21 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: klamath.leguin.org.uk: Host klamath [127.0.0.1] claimed to be klamath.leguin.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Edward Brocklesby &lt;ejb(a)leguin.org.uk&gt; Organization: Leguin Network Services To: "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt;om>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:48:19 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: &lt;200104192347.f3JNlMq22283(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;200104192347.f3JNlMq22283(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: &lt;01042001482004.00527(a)klamath.leguin.org.uk&gt; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday 20 April 2001 12:47 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote: That's something I added myself, to try to help with the problem.. /VERSION says: Current Patch Level: 400 Date: January 24, 1998 That's what was on the PUPS FTP site.. hm.. how do you specify the base segment size to ld? i don't see anything in the manual page. Just link enough code into the base that it becomes the right size? possibly, i will look on the 2BSD patch archives now.. text data bss dec hex 27648 35860 32412 95920 176b0 total text: 83072 overlays: 832,4352,2624,832,1920,29568,192,11008,4096 this particular link gave the error: ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal = 0) the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug? nope.. this doesn't seem to help > > > Couple things to try. Use 'size' on the .o (and/or .a) files to > see how big things are - add them up and see if things start overflowing > 16 bits. There was an overflow bug in ld's size computations - it was > fixed by using a 'long' in a couple places to detect wraparound. Well, considering that there's a couple of *large* libraries here.. -rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 127074 Apr 9 14:47 ../zotnet/libzot.a -rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 102126 Apr 9 14:39 ../sbr/libmh.a maybe that's the problem.. -larne- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA57746 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:01:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA57741 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:01:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3K2gsf23361 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; Message-Id: &lt;200104200242.f3K2gsf23361(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - Ok - whew, for a minute there I thought some of my debug code had leaked to the world ;) That's the style of debug message I use <g> Ouch - that is a bit old, there are updates thru 434 (I've 435 in midstream but haven't had time to finish it). Ah. Much becomes clear now. That indeed was the version at one time. A year or so ago I and Warren coordinated an update to the 2.11 in PUPS The current PUPS version is 431 (only 3 updates since then - I've slowed down a lot over the last couple years). You don't. At least not directly. Anything outside an overlay goes into the base segment. Thus anything before the first -Z goes into the base, and anything after the -Y goes into the base. That's basically the way to do it. You can do "size" on the .o files first to get an idea what you want to put where but after that tuning the overlays to fit is a bit of an art. the single BIGGEST problem is that 'data + bss' exceeds not only the 56KB limit but the total 64KB limit available to a process. Looks like MH want 35860+32412 or 68272 bytes of D space. You might be able to get the code to fit - I'd pack the base to at least 40KB (more likely 48KB) and only have two or three overlays of 24KB or 16KB. THe data space problem means you're going to have to go and lower a lot of the buffer size limits. Remember: even if you do get the dataspace down to where the linker doesn't complain the program will almost certainly try to malloc() memory. Thus the smaller the data+bss the better - and be prepared for malloc() failures One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and collect error message strings, printf strings, and so on into a common pool. The other thing that can be done is create a strings file and extract as many as possible strings from the source modules into an external file. Examples of doing this type of thing can be found in the source tree - 'lint' was one such program, 'sendmail' was another and kermit yet another (that's why there are 'sendmail.sr' and 'kermit5.sr' files on the system). In fact 'kermit' is a good example of squishing a monster program into a small machine. Check out /usr/src/new/kermit5.188 Hmmm, could be. The size of the .a doesn't accurately reflect the code+text+bss For one thing 'bss' takes up no room at all in an archive. Don't forget that symbol tables and relocation information (as well as 'ar' book keeping info) is present. You can't rely on "ls -l" to say very much about an object file - only "size" can do that. "size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas are. Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA58045 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:21:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (pc62-oxf1.cable.ntl.com [62.254.132.62]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA58041 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:21:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from ejb(a)leguin.org.uk) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (klamath [127.0.0.1]) by klamath.leguin.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA19106; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:12:59 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: klamath.leguin.org.uk: Host klamath [127.0.0.1] claimed to be klamath.leguin.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Edward Brocklesby &lt;ejb(a)leguin.org.uk&gt; Organization: Leguin Network Services To: "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt;om>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:12:58 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: &lt;200104200242.f3K2gsf23361(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;200104200242.f3K2gsf23361(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: &lt;01042005125805.00527(a)klamath.leguin.org.uk&gt; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday 20 April 2001 3:42 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote: The problem appears to be `libmh.a', which alone has 30K text + 22K data + 24K bss (77444 total). Any way around this? I've tried all the combinations i can think of, to no avail.. hmm... a lot of work just to get MH working. Could be i used the wrong printf format also.. unfortunately, size doesn't appear to work on archive libraries. -larne- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA58237 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:01:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA58232 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:01:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3K4nxv24294 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:49:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; Message-Id: &lt;200104200449.f3K4nxv24294(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I think this would be a very good time to point out that 'data' is NOT overlaid, only the text is overlaid. There is but 1 data segment and all data+bss goes into it. Text overlays work because there's a very careful dance done by the assembler and linker. Functions use a 'thunk' (intermediate transfer vector) - thus when a program calls foo() it is really calling something like ~foo(). That thunk performs part of the function prolog and then checks if the overlay mapping needs to changeoa and if so makes a syscall to have the kernel twiddle the MMU. Then the thunk calls foo+4 (skipping the part of the function prolog that has already been done). Very elegant but completely unapplicable to data references (think on it - how is each and every pointer dereference to be checked to see if that data is mapped in?). In order to get the code to fit it would be necessary to extract all of the .o files from the .a file ("ar x libmh.a") and pack the .o files into overlays so they fit nicely. Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of work. Since MH was written with a large address space in mind it will likely be necessary to go thru the code and find the "#define BUFSIZE 32000" or whatever and scale things back. The odds are good that many buffers are declared to be large just because it didn't matter on a big address space machine. That's what had to be done for 'vi', 'sendmail', 'kermit', etc. Oh. Darn, I got my systems mixed up. On some systems 'size' will work on .a files - something to put on the TODO pile (shouldn't be too hard since 'nm' works with .a files). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA58368 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:35:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (pc62-oxf1.cable.ntl.com [62.254.132.62]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA58364 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:35:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from ejb(a)leguin.org.uk) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (klamath [127.0.0.1]) by klamath.leguin.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA19840; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:26:27 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: klamath.leguin.org.uk: Host klamath [127.0.0.1] claimed to be klamath.leguin.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Edward Brocklesby &lt;ejb(a)leguin.org.uk&gt; Organization: Leguin Network Services To: "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt;om>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:26:25 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: &lt;200104200449.f3K4nxv24294(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;200104200449.f3K4nxv24294(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: &lt;01042006262506.00527(a)klamath.leguin.org.uk&gt; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday 20 April 2001 5:49 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote: hmm.. i might have a look at doing this after i get xstr working. 36bit with 9bit bytes, iirc .. fun :> I'm currently converting libmh.a to use xstr, but I've come across a problem.. given the definition static char unixbuf[BUFSIZ] = ""; xstr generates the code static char unixbuf[BUFSIZ] = (&xstr[0]); which the C compiler refuses to compile. Any way around this? -larne- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA59071 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:41:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE (isdn258.s.netic.de [212.9.163.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA59067 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:41:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f3K7bSv10954; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Wolfgang Helbig &lt;helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE&gt; Message-Id: &lt;200104200737.f3K7bSv10954(a)RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE&gt; To: helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE, leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Subject: Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I asked Dennis, and he told me, the best place for those directories is the minnie archive. So I'd like to put it there, but don't know how to. Wolfgang [...] [...] Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA59307 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:22:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from mx2.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (mx2.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA59303 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:22:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from neuromancer.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (neuromancer [134.2.12.58]) by mx2.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80C01066; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:14:18 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by neuromancer.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA01537; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:15:44 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:15:44 GMT Message-Id: &lt;200104200815.IAA01537(a)neuromancer.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de&gt; X-Authentication-Warning: neuromancer.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus E Leypold &lt;leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de&gt; To: helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE Cc: helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: &lt;200104200737.f3K7bSv10954(a)RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE&gt; (message from Wolfgang Helbig on Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST)) Subject: Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator References: &lt;200104200737.f3K7bSv10954(a)RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE&gt; Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Well -- send a mail to warren k tomey (wkt@.... -- you'll find him in the mailing list). He has been building the archive and might tell you, how to transfer the files. Since PUPS-archive has an incoming directory, I think, it might be, that ftp-'put' to incoming will work. Warren or some other archive maintainer can pick it from there, and place it in the proper directories. Ask Warren. He is the one who should know. Regards -- Markus PS: Somehow I know your name. You haven't written a book by chance? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA59510 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:00:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from Tempo.Update.UU.SE (root(a)Tempo.Update.UU.SE [130.238.19.17]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA59503 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:00:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)update.uu.se) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Tempo.Update.UU.SE (8.11.2/8.11.2/Update-Iltempogigante) with ESMTP id f3K8pKq08127; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:51:20 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:51:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Johnny Billquist &lt;bqt(a)update.uu.se&gt; To: Edward Brocklesby &lt;ejb(a)leguin.org.uk&gt; cc: "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt;om>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? In-Reply-To: &lt;01042006262506.00527(a)klamath.leguin.org.uk&gt; Message-ID: &lt;Pine.LNX.4.21.0104201049370.3728-100000(a)Tempo.Update.UU.SE&gt; MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Edward Brocklesby wrote: Actually, the PDP-10 have variable byte size. Anything from 1 to 36 bits. Lazy people went with 9 bit bytes, while size-aware people used 7 bit bytes. And then you have SIXBIT... /Department for worthless knowledge. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA65073 for pups-liszt; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 05:02:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from uucp-relay.eunet.no (gasspedal.eunet.no [193.71.71.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA65069 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;au>; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 05:02:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tih(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by uucp-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id UAA97313; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:54:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tih(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO) Received: by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D4DED7201; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:23:52 +0200 (CEST) To: "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? References: &lt;200104200242.f3K2gsf23361(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo &lt;tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO&gt; Date: 20 Apr 2001 20:23:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: &lt;867l0f8m6g.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO&gt; User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" &lt;sms(a)moe.2bsd.com&gt; writes: You mean 435/436: patch 435 was released on February 7th, 2001. :-) -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"