19 Jun
2000
19 Jun
'00
1:25 a.m.
In article by Alan F R Bain:
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> Yesterday I asked:
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of
2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how
it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
> Now that I've read the tapes, this
is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989
> 2.11BSD from the past year
> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put
2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
> I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-)
> --
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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> In message
<200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>om>, Steven M. Schultz
> <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
> >Hi --
> >
> > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> >
> >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> >> Yesterday I asked:
> >>
> >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and
then "2.10.2 SMS
> >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and
how it's
> >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)
Terry
> >> >didn't remember...
> >>
> >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> > I think it would be - I
didn't save a copy for myself ;)
> >
> For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
> archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
> historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
> normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
> have some effects on the archive structure.
Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss
is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you
could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them.
Regards -- Markus
> Robin
>
____________________________________________________________________
> Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
> M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and
radios always welcome
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> I think I understand what Michael is
saying. Or at least it means something
> to me.
> I don't have a lot vested here, nor
have I always followed the issues with
> PUPS and now TUHS.
> Certainly a big part of this was running
AT&T UNIX systems on these
> machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
offspring.
Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?
> The fact that you COULD run a unix clone
-- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
> is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
> to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But
> the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
> pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
> Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent
to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
> se.
> Is the ultimate purpose then of the list
to keep the machines running
> regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
> I won't fault Michael for his
perspective. But I guess we should agree to
> define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.
Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community
certainly should be a parameter :-)
It makes me sad to see all this.
Regards -- Markus
> Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
> -Mike
> Mike Allison
> Stranded in Utah, USA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
> >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it
isn't UNIX.
> And
> >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't
care
> >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are,
they
> are
> >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> >
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> Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > still mere clones and copycats. And
I want the genuine article.
>
> That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
> and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
> hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.
And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
genuine article'.
-- Markus
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> > I think I understand what Michael is
saying. Or at least it means something
> > to me.
> > > I don't have a lot vested here,
nor have I always followed the issues with
> > PUPS and now TUHS.
> > > Certainly a big part of this was
running AT&T UNIX systems on these
> > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
>
> Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
> yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
> brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
> Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
> offspring.
For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph,
it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right.
Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially
done for what became BSDI. A somewhat infamous falling-out during
Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it
as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386.
BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1. Jolitz kept saying things
about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it
wouldn't be released soon, if ever. A semi-official "patchkit"
sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus
patchkit X.
Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small
number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally
managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like
focus to the 386BSD chaos. An early snapshot of this made its
way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to
participate. NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later
the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD. Though there
was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work --
there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD
or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot. Since
these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved
it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem
to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong.
Thor
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Warren,
Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines.
Alan
Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then
please e-mail me.
Warren
The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those
people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix
is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code
ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs.
Topics that fall within the list's charter include:
+ how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system
+ discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix
+ applications for PDP-11 Unix systems
+ modification of PDP-11 Unix systems
+ technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems
+ anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix
+ discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11
section of the Unix Archive
Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include:
+ discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being
compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems
+ attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations
+ postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list
subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version
of PDP-11 Unix
The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber
continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that
effect, then their postings may be moderated.
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From Markus Leypold
<leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG,
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG)
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
References: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT
From: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Sender: owner-tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
and preservation section of our project.
Hi Friends,
I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user
of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or
architecture, i.e. BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for
me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions.
Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other
stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me.
Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future
generations of software historians will be very thankful.
Regards -- Markus
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From Markus Leypold
<leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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In-reply-to: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> (apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org)
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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"David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes:
No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it."
You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.
I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more
diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to
UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being
treated somewhat more respectfully :-)
UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system.
On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to
see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that,
and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp.
I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic.
Regards -- Markus
I would
like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. From Markus Leypold
<leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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In-reply-to: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400)
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
proposals of adding everything in them to the archive
may just be
adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
Hi Tim,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put
something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one
needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the
transfer of features between the diverse branches.
Regards Markus.
From Markus Leypold
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In-reply-to: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> (message from Robin Birch on
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Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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From Markus Leypold
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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> From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
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From Markus Leypold
<leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Mon Jun 19
20:32:14 2000
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To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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* Markus Leypold wrote:
On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port
BSD4.3 to modern
VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes),
Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really
*original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did
hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
myself.
--tim
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From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Mon
Jun 19 21:19:11 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote:
>
>
> > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
> > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> From Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com> Mon Jun 19
22:37:08 2000
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Subject: save everything
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My $0.02:
I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people
thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different.
In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7
release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques.
In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release,
it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
the reconstruction of an even truer tape.
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