5 Dec
1997
5 Dec
'97
10:59 a.m.
<Does the DL11 port have an interrupt that is driven when data is
<received, or do processes have to constantly poll it to receive data?
Yes or you can poll.
<Is the information stored on a PDP-11 disk in 8 or 9 bit words? How
<many bits per word are transmitted/received by the DL11?
Disks are 8bit (2 8bit, 1 word = 16bits) and the DL can be set to send
7 or 8 bits and with or with out parity.
Allison
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Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or
a KDJ11B (quad-height, boot ROMs on the CPU board)? If you
have a KDJ11A, then your boot ROM resides in a MXV11, a BDV11, or
elsewhere (possibly a third-party controller) in your system. (You'll
notice that I said "11/73B" in my above message, because the
KDJ11A has no boot ROMs at all...)
My KDJ11B has the following built in bootstraps (listed through
"Setup" in the boot menu or with a "Boot" followed by a
"?"):
DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn
DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02
DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01
DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02
DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58
DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05
MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81
MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05
XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET
NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11
NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E
NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F
If your KDJ11B doesn't allow you to see the above list, then
the boot menu has been disabled and it has been set to only
auto-boot. I can tell you how to reconfigure to get at the
boot menu.
From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Sat Dec
6 02:40:07 1997
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It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives
and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better
choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though.
Neil
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Dec
6 02:53:53 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix
onto a PDP-11 without a
tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I
actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once.
The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The
other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by
commands sent over the serial line.
[Protocol description]
Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding
commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.?
Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used
to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port.
Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already
being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could
be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers
already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example,
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu…
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun
Dec 7 14:15:41 1997
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST)
Cc: erin(a)corliss.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 5,
97 08:51:33 am"
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In article by Robin Birch:
This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a
2.11 point of view, if
something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an
additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line
once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as
a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc
access it has a couple of good thigs to it:
I was thinking of simulating a disk, as then we could manipulate the
disk image using an emulator on the PC end, and still use it on the PDP-11
end. I've made some changes to the suggestions I emailed, and if I get some
time just after Xmas, I'll try to get something working under v6. Then I
can port it up to v7 and 2BSD.
Warren
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Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5
To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: <199712051640.KAA05287(a)skatter.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Dec
5, 97 10:40:07 am"
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In article by Neil Johnson:
It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller.
RL01/RL02 drives
and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better
choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though.
Given how close v6 and v6 were, backporting the RL driver to v5 shouldn't
present too many problems. I hope :-)
Warren
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun
Dec 7 14:18:42 1997
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd)
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9712051653.AA01585(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 5,
97 08:53:53 am"
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing
protocol (RSP) used
to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port.
Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already
being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could
be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers
already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example,
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu…
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could
hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. I'll pull that file and have a look.
Thanks Tim,
Warren
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Dec
7 15:17:23 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something
that we could
hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary.
Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
bootstraps.
Later Unibus processors (11/24, 11/44) often had TU58 bootstrap
PROMs to boot diagnostics from TU58.
The TU58 drivers aren't as simple as RK05 drivers (is anything as
simple as a RK05 driver?) but they are comparable with, say,
RL01/02 and RX02 drivers.
One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58
protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is
flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to
allow anyone to do that to themselves :-)
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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From "Pete Turnbull
<pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Mon Dec 8
03:18:36 1997
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From: "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>"
<pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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On Dec 6, 21:17, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in
firmware.
Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
bootstraps.
Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't, and according to my microPDP-11
Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only
tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too
old to include 11/53 and 11/93).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Dec
8 04:05:23 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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Many (most)
Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
bootstraps.
Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't and according to my microPDP-11
Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only
tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too
old to include 11/53 and 11/93).
Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system
to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). The downside,
of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time!
I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm extolling the TU58 as a
perfect wonderful device. There are lots of reasons to *not* use them. My
point was mainly that the RSP (radial serial protocol) used to speak to
them is well-defined and already exists; there's no use in re-inventing
the wheel.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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From "Pete Turnbull
<pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Mon Dec 8
07:10:43 1997
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From: "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>"
<pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
"Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal" (Dec 7, 10:05)
References: <9712071805.AA01939(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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On Dec 7, 10:05, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58
bootstraps in firmware.
> > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
> > bootstraps.
>
> Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't
Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU
board) or
Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not
relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-)
My point
was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs.
I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs)
because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a
maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems.
Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that
TU58's appear to the system
to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-).
Indeed, but we both know that DD means tape :-)
The downside,
of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time!
But still better than some systems. (Fond memories of TU56's on a PDP8, and
not-so-fond memories of friends' Commodore disks, which seemed slower even
than that).
And as Tim points out, RSP is well-defined, tried, and tested.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Dec
8 10:14:41 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so
it's possibly not
relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-)
My point
was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs.
I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs)
because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a
maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems.
OK, then, I *think* the most complete official summary of hardware bootstraps is
Micronote #15, something that every Q-bus maintenance engineer ought to
have readily available... If our esteemed list-owner will allow me to post an
excerpt from it:
*begin excerpt*
+============+======================================================+
| | |
| BOOT | DESCRIPTION |
| DEVICE | |
| | |
+============+======================================================+
| BDV11 | Bus Terminator, Bootstrap & Diagnostic ROM |
| | used primarily with older LSI-11 configurations |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| MXV11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-A board |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| MXV11-B2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-BF & MRV11-D |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BA | Bootstrap ROM on board PDP-11/23+ systems |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BE | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/23 systems |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BF | New Bootstrap ROM for PDP-11/23+ and MicroPDP-11/23 |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KXT11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KXT11-A5 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon-Plus |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDJ11-B | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/73 CPU |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| uVAX I | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroVAX I CPU |
+============+======================================================+
Page 2
BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| DEVICE | BDV11 | MXV11-A2 | MXV11-B2 | KDF11-BA | KDF11-BE |
| | | | | | |
| | Rev A | |see Note 2| part no | part no. |
| | | | | 23-339E2| 23-157E4|
| |see Note 1| | | 23-340E2| 23-158E4|
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| RX01 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX02 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TU58 |see Note 1| X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RL01/2 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-C | | X | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-D | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RK05 | X | X | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX50 | | | X | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD51 | | | X | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD52 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TSV05 | | | X | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TK25 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RC25 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DEQNA | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-E | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-F | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DUV11 | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DPV11 | | | X | | |
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
Page 3
BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| DEVICE | KDF11-BF | KXT11-A2 | KXT11-A5 | KDJ11-B | uVAX I |
| | | | | | |
| | part no | | |available |available |
| | 23-183E4| | | on CPU | on CPU |
| | 23-184E4| | |board only|board only|
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| RX01 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX02 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TU58 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RL01/2 | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-C | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-D | | | | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RK05 | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX50 | X | | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD51 | X | | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD52 | X | | | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TSV05 | X | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TK25 | X | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RC25 | X | | |See note 3|See note 3|
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DEQNA | X | | | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-E | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-F | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DUV11 | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DPV11 | | | | | |
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
Page 4
NOTES:
------
(1) The information in the BDV11 column refers to the Rev A
chips. There were also Rev O chips and an additional TU58
chip that can be added to the board:
Rev O:
Part numbers 23-010E2, 23-011E2
Does NOT support:
DLV11-F, RX02 as bootable devices
TU58 ROM:
Part number 23-126F3
Inserted into socket XE40. Other ROM must be
Rev A. Allows use of the TU58 DECtape II as
a bootable device.
*end excerpt*
It looks to me like the only devices with more complete than TU58
hardware bootstrap support in the Q-bus world are RX01 and RX02... and
RX02 is already supported for the standalone utilities in
BSD2.11, thanks to the efforts of someone who will here go nameless :-)
Tim.
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From Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> Tue Dec 9
01:03:34 1997
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <9712070517.AA22184(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote:
One thing we don't want people doing is thinking
that the TU58
protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is
flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to
allow anyone to do that to themselves :-)
Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put
PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
kind of a freak show act....
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From "Daniel A. Seagraves"
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From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net>
To: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208064741.29193B-100000(a)rio.com>
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Erin Corliss wrote:
Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if
I was intending to put
PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
kind of a freak show act....
Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show!
I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in
racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it...
(Speaking of which: Anyone want an IBM S/34 in running condition with
software? [Loads of 8" floppies])
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From Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> Tue Dec 9
08:19:01 1997
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:19:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com>
To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:
Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be
more of a freak show!
Well, personally I think it's the *realness* of the thing that sells
tickets to freak shows. You can paint all the pictures of two headed
babies you want, but the guy who has a living one in a jar is the one who
draws the crowd. 8^)
I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks -
REAL computers come in
racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it...
I'm not going to argue for PC's. My roommate & I have about 20 of them
lying around and we've been working furiously lately to consolidate them
into one big rackmounted, networked Linux system. In fact one of the
projects that's been slowly moving toward the front of my mind is to
modify the forking and piping system in Linux so that the OS can
dynamically allocate networked motherboards when it needs to run new
tasks... Like if you run two tasks from the console it will run one on
the local machine and pick a remote machine on the network to run the next
one, then pipe the output from both of them back to the console so they
both appear to have been run on the local machine. It wouldn't increase
the "BogoMips" but it would be nice for graphics rendering,
inexpensive multiuser systems, or anything else that needs or can use
multiple processes. But I digress. Yes, PC's are built like a psychotic
dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus
that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent
user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11.
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Dec
9 09:16:11 1997
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: zomad(a)rio.com (Erin Corliss)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 (PST)
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Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if
I was intending to put
PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
kind of a freak show act....
Well, if you just want a minimal system that can play simple games
through the console port, you don't need any of the Unices. RT-11
is perfectly servicable and will boot from floppy or TU58 quite nicely; it's
even possible to have a working TCP/IP implementation on a 11/03
this way.
Tim.
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