28 Feb
1998
28 Feb
'98
3:08 p.m.
<uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
<vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
<hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
<hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
<^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
<klesiu0 at uba0
That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if
one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT
pass grant!
<Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
<a good cause, okay? )
I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience
with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under
rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup.
Allison
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In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary:
Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
"internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73
(KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory. Caching on both controllers
was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem. Times
reported below are "wall times". All of this is done under the latest
release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work
being done on the system.
1. "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3
seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is
just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller. I think
Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive
itself makes this a minor concern.
Tim.
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Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/
From J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Sun
Mar 1 02:18:57 1998
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From: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: RL02 meets BSD
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running
BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of
buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other
devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular,
UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1.
Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates
as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus
to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger
silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it.
The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
&c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
device on the bus.
James
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar
1 03:58:27 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
To: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK (J Lothian)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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The only other things I can think of are bus grant
problems
&c.
This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the
machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12
set to?
If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine,
bear in mind
that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
device on the bus.
I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here.
Tim.
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar
1 14:45:51 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803010445.AA18387(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz"
at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
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Incidentally,
a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun
Mar 1 18:02:45 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: That RL02 blues
In-Reply-To: <199802281508.AA24580(a)world.std.com>
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Grant chain was intact on both machines.
On the second machine the MSCP device was placed below the RLV12 and the
RA disk worked fine!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:
<uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
<vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
<hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
<hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
<^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
<klesiu0 at uba0
That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if
one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT
pass grant!
<Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
<a good cause, okay? )
I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience
with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under
rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup.
Allison
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From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun
Mar 1 18:06:26 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
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Both systems have "pirate" drive controllers and they have cards
that do pass grant signals.
If I do not remember wrongly, I think that only RQDX-1 had the
"feature" of not passing the grant chain.
But we placed all RQDX controller at the bottom anyhow even
though they worked further up.
THis is of academical interest only since I do not have holes
in the grant chain and do not have an RQDX controllers AND
I have devices below the drive controller in the first case
that do work!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, J Lothian wrote:
I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running
BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of
buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other
devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular,
UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1.
Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates
as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus
to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger
silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it.
The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
&c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
device on the bus.
James
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From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun
Mar 1 18:37:58 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:58 +0100 (MET)
From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
cc: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK>UK>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
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For various reasons I can not give you the hardware config of the
first system (Okay okay! I DO not want to crawl back in behind it
under all the cabling and short out the house again because I did
something aggravating to the power outlet in the process the last time
I was in there) but the only thing I did to that one was to add the RLV12 at
the bottom. The system worked before with all devices and did so afterwards
too except for the RLV-controller.
The second system looks like this:
A B C D
1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU
2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM
3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12
4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA
5 SI------SI------SI------SI
GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN
(this used to be a VAX-station II.
Remember them and cringe!)
SI is a quad ESDI controller for one or two external drives from System
Industries.
On the other system I have a dual SI controller for RA81 clones (Eagle).
There I DO have an RQDX-3 above the RLV12 but not so here.
Grant chain on the uVAX bus looks like this:
1AB-2AB-3AB-4AB-4CD-5CD-5AB(and so on).
The first three slots are "granted" only in the AB pair.
The RLV12 does work with grants only on the AB pair however.
It works fine in my three button 9 slot 22 bit backplane (classical
PDP11 vintage rack mount cab) and there the grant chain goes ONLY
on the AB side stright down (BA11-N and H9273).
So, no, I do not think we have a grant problem.
However, does the RLV12 handle drive interrupt like the RL11 does?
It could be that ULTRIX only supports the UNIBUS controller and
not the Qbus.. And if so, is there a fix for this out there?
And if not, how do I get hold of enough NetBSD to get a uVAX up
enough to have the config above, being able to network and being able
to reach both the SI controller and the RLV12?
Come to think of it, most of the no nonsense hard hat industry type
PDP11's I've seen (and especially the OEM-ed ones) got some sort
of winchester emulating one or several RL02s. Often combined with some
sort of QIC-type tape recorder with secret density.
To get ANYTHING on those rigs, I think you HAVE to do it the dd way
after having moved the controller to a bigger system....
Amazing how things can turn...
I used to spend a lot of time in trying to get away from the 16 bit
operating systems into the wonderful world of 32 bit. Now I am struggling
even harder to get back in there again. =)
Fun is not always bigger, faster better!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote:
The only other
things I can think of are bus grant problems
&c.
This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the
machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12
set to?
If you're using an RQDX3 in the same
machine, bear in mind
that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
device on the bus.
I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here.
Tim.
From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar
2 04:57:46 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803011857.AA28081(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
To: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 (PST)
Cc: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090940.20308C-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from
"Beastly Wolf" at Mar 1, 98 09:37:58 am
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The second system looks like this:
A B C D
1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU
2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM
3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12
4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA
5 SI------SI------SI------SI
GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN
(this used to be a VAX-station II.
Remember them and cringe!)
Ah, the "RC" aka "restricted configuration" aka
"resin-coated" backplane.
The BA23 has a special CD-bus in the first three slots. Usually it's
not a problem to put a full-height card in the third slot, below
the CPU and memory, but occasionally there are quad-height
cards which actually pay some attention to stuff going on the CD
side of the bus. Can you try rearranging your cards so that you
have a dual-height card (i.e. the TKQ50 or DEQNA) in slot 3 AB,
you have the 3 CD empty, and the RLV12 in slot 4? This involves you
giving up either your TKQ50 or DEQNA, but I'm hoping that you can
live without one or the other for a little while.
Also, how are the jumpers/DIPswitches set on the RLV12? It's possible
to do some weird things by sticking the RLV12 into 16-bit or 18-bit
mode or by having the VEC set to something used by one of your other
cards. If either of these is the case, regard the fact that the controller
isn't usable as a Good Thing; having a RLV12 in 18-bit mode splatter
data all around low memory isn't fun!
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Mar 2 05:25:54 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Hi -
From shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998
Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they
are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-))
Andromeda Systems, Inc.
9000 Eton Avenue
Canoga Park, CA 91304
818-709-7600 (voice)
818-709-7407 (FAX)
No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while
very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive
on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-)
2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took
166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
WOW. That is quite surprising.
Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to
the ZIP's access time,
Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek'
operations.
Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the
2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On
the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb
"zip like" (but not compatible) drive.
Steven
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar
2 06:09:46 1998
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Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz"
at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am
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Both a Webster
ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
I
tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they
are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-))
Andromeda Systems, Inc.
9000 Eton Avenue
Canoga Park, CA 91304
818-709-7600 (voice)
818-709-7407 (FAX)
No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while
very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive
on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-)
Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind!
The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies.
> > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the
WQESD+Hitachi
> > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
>
> WOW. That is quite surprising.
>
> Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to
the ZIP's access time,
>
> Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek'
> operations.
Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the
'find'. I
suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite
early on.
In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes
close to the SCDC. 2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern
PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive.
Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip?
I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware. 100 Mbytes
is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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