8 Sep
1999
8 Sep
'99
1:07 a.m.
Are, I was afraid of that. The KE11-A wasn't a real CPU option, but
was a peripheral that sat on the Unibus
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Yep, I remember that now! Often thought it was odd, but it worked
on all platforms.
The convention was that R0/1 were scratch (used to return results)
and R2/3/4 had to be saved (they were the caller's first three register
variables). R5 was used as a frame pointer (?) and R6/7 you know
better as SP/PC.
From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed
Sep 8 11:12:00 1999
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Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are
there any significant
USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
Well, first of all, there is no "User mode" on the 11/20 unless you have
a KT11 installed. Everything is kernel mode with no KT11. Maybe the
executables are trying to go out and directly bang on the console CSR's,
the switch register, or the interrupt vectors themselves?
11/20's also frequently had the EAE (Extended Arithmetic Element)
installed, to make up for the fact that there was no multiply, divide,
or multiple shift instructions in the native instruction set (and
wouldn't be until the EIS came along.) The EAE was a peripheral
living in I/O space (773000-777316); you wrote the operands to the EAE
locations and read the results later. You can put a EAE in a machine
with EIS, but generally you only did this if you had some binaries without
sources using the EAE (I know of several sites running 11/24's and 11/44's
with EAE's today)
There are many other differences, especially dealing with "funny" address
modes. Generally, folks like me who have to code so that something works
across all the -11's know better than to do these things, but back when
there was *only* the 11/20 some folks didn't know any better and used
them anyway.
First, we have instructions that use the same register as source
and destination, with an auto-increment one or the other:
1. OPR R,(R)+ on an 11/20 increments R before it's used as a source
operand. On an 11/45 the initial contents of R are used.
2. Same thing for OPR R,-(R).
3. JMP (R)+ or JSR reg,(R)+ increments R before putting it in the PC
on the 11/20; on the 11/45 R isn't incremented until after the old
value is put in the PC.
4. On an 11/20, JMP %R traps to 4; on an 11/45, JMP %R traps to 10
5. On an 11/20, SWAB does not change the V flag; on every other machine,
SWAB clears V. (In the 11/20 processor handbook, it *says* that SWAB
clears the V flag, but that's not the way the machine actually worked!)
6. On an 11/20, R0-R7 can be used by the program at addresses 177700-
177717; on any other machine, they can't be used that way and will
result in a non-existent memory (NXM) trap. This can be used for some
neat tricks where you run code out of the registers (which of course
is quite non-portable!)
There's lots more differences, having to do with T bits and interrupt
handling, but I don't know if you're getting that far... and these
aren't things that you have to worry about in user mode, anyway.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
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7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
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From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep
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Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote:
The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember
coming across was
an incompatibility in the result of
MOV SP, -(SP)
Anything involving the same register as src and dst in this way was,
err, different...
And I have an annotation that the JSR does not behave as documented.
Unlike page 91, the sequence is not (tmp) <- (dst) / v(SP) <- reg /
reg <- PC / PC <- (tmp). The first ISP code is not present i.e. the
SP is decremented first, not saved, and the last is PC <- (dst).
It isn't really clear to me why one would want to
use this particular
instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the
time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out.
Some sort of frame pointer linking, on an architecture that didn't
have separate frame pointers (like the Vax)?
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
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From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed
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Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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MOV SP, -(SP)
It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular
instruction
"MOV SP" is often-used shorthand for "MOV some-non-zero-value", since
no
sane implementation would ever have a zero in the SP. So this would
put a non-zero value on top of the stack (perhaps as a flag, to be
cleared by CLR (SP) when ready) - at least on machines where this was legal!
On which machine does this fail, BTW? On a 11/15, 11/20, 11/23, 11/35
or 11/40 this ought to work, decrementing SP by two before putting it on
the stack, and on the 11/03, 11/04, 11/05, 11/10, 11/34, and 11/45
SP is decremented by two before being put on the stack, according to my
notes.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
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Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
I've got a few working. cat works. ls and date
run, but sort of give
strange outputs.
What sort of strange output? My guess is that kernel-wise, date-handling
would have changed.
These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are
there any significant
USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
Ummm... No floating point (all emulated), and I seem to recall that
it didn't even have multiply/divide; could this be the problem? The
/20 was certainly a subset of the "classic" 11. No memory management,
but users won't see that. Also had some quirks, long-forgotten.
My experience is based on the GT-40, which was basically a /20 with a
graphics processor attached to it (which had a mean Lunar Lander game!).
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
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From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Sep
8 14:43:16 1999
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From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
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From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Sep 7 18:24
PDT 1999
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
Abbreviated due to fading memory over the years, but refreshed by some
of the current discussion. The patch was zero-length but involved more
than the one instruction. Something similar to:
MOV SP, -(SP) MOV SP, R0
MOV (sP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP)
The net result being that the initial value of SP is now both in R0 and
on the stack. Without doing both a SRC and DST operation on SP in the
same instruction, which is the thing that is incompatible across different
processor hardware.
carl
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From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
MOV SP, -(SP)
Similarily
MOV R0,(R0)+
won't work as expected on some 11s. I suspect that the even less
likely case of "mov pc,-(pc)" won't work either :-)
It isn't really clear to me why one would
want to use this particular
instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the
Fairly common when setting up call frames, etc. You want the
address of where the arguments start and since they're pushed on the
stack 'sp' is the value you want.
There's a comment in 2BSD (I think it came from V7) where mention is
made that "we can't do sp,-(sp) because it won't work on the
11/40".
time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard
to figure out.
Hmmm, interesting. The workaround I saw took an extra instruction. From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Sep
8 15:03:09 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
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From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
It occurs to me that really early Unix used a time word in PDP-11 ticks,
not seconds. So it ran out of time a lot sooner than 2038, like maybe
only a year after it started, at 60 ticks per second, 31.5 Megaseconds per
year. This information was gleaned from a Mt.Xinu calendar from a few
years ago.
carl
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I've got a few working. cat works. ls and
date run, but sort of give
strange outputs.
What sort of strange output? My guess is that kernel-wise, date-handling
would have changed. From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Sep 8 15:40:58 1999
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Howdy -
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Abbreviated due to fading memory over the years, but refreshed by some
of the current discussion. The patch was zero-length but involved more
It has been a long long ('quad'? ;)) time since I first encountered
the problem.
than the one instruction. Something similar to:
MOV SP, -(SP) MOV SP, R0
MOV (SP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP)
Ah, thank you for bringing that memory back to the front of the brain!
If R0 is available for that then yes indeed that'll do the trick very
nicely.
on the stack. Without doing both a SRC and DST
operation on SP in the
same instruction, which is the thing that is incompatible across different
processor hardware.
The 11/45 (and 70) behave as "expected" as do the KDJ-11 systems
(11/73, etc) so unless a person had an 11/40 (or a /20) around it
would be fairly easy to get bit by the "feature".
When it comes time for MMU "features" I know of one difference between
the KDJ-11 and the other members that had an MMU (11/44, /70, etc). Was
fun tracking it down but not something I'd want to do again ;)
Steven
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From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
MOV SP,
-(SP) MOV SP, R0
MOV (SP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP)
Ah, thank you for bringing that memory back to the front of the brain!
If R0 is available for that then yes indeed that'll do the trick very
nicely. The 11/45 (and 70) behave as "expected" as
do the KDJ-11 systems
(11/73, etc) so unless a person had an 11/40 (or a /20) around it
would be fairly easy to get bit by the "feature".
We had 40s, and used to dream of owning a 70... I learned a lot about
porting Edition 6 to the /23, /60, etc.
When it comes time for MMU "features" I
know of one difference between
the KDJ-11 and the other members that had an MMU (11/44, /70, etc). Was
fun tracking it down but not something I'd want to do again ;)
Do you recall the PC-board hack on the sep-ID machines that changed
the MFPI instruction to do something that was expressly prohibited?
Something about allowing a user program to access something else, for
some obscure hack or other...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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Hi,
I am the happy owner of a pdp-11/94. I've got it from our local telecom
provider (kpn). As I am not a specialist on these machines, I would like
to ask some questions:
- My pdp won't accept mains... when I supply power it doesn't do
anything.. I've heard it could be something with the power-supply not
being closed.. but I cannot find what it is.. it's fully closed.
- I've got sdi / tu80 and an other diskcontroller... What type of disks
can I use to boot from?? (disks = floppy / tape / harddrive)
- What about the 2 connectors at the back.. 1 has 3 pins and can be
connected to the mains regulator (or something (a box for switching the
mains)) an other one has got 2 pins and no info...
- Is there some info on hardware to connect at the diverse controllers
(modem / serial??)
GreetZz
Wim Fournier
hsmade(a)dds.nl