4 Aug
2022
4 Aug
'22
7:45 p.m.
Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix:
https://hack.org/mc/mgr/
One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the
Macintosh:
The window system ran on many different hardware
platforms, at least
these: Sun 3/xx workstations running SunOS, which was the the original
development platform, Sun SPARCstations (SunOS and then ported by me to
Solaris), Intel x86 based PCs (Coherent, Minix, FreeBSD or Linux),
Atari ST (under MiNT), AT&T UnixPC (SysV) and the Macintosh.
As the owner of a Macintosh Plus, I think it would be a very interesting
thing to experiment with, but I haven't had much luck finding any more
information about it.
Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has
the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it
(aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...)
John
4 Aug
4 Aug
8:18 p.m.
On 8/4/22 12:45 PM, John Floren wrote:
Today I came across an article about the MGR window
system for Unix:
https://hack.org/mc/mgr/
One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the
Macintosh:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457846
gives the origins
I probably have the code in the backups of the archive that I used to maintain on the
Apple VAX
at that time.
8:29 p.m.
On 8/4/22 1:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 8/4/22 12:45 PM, John Floren wrote:
you can find the original c.s.unix files here
http://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/volume17/mgr
i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive was a little more
difficult to find
than I thought.
Today I came across an article about the MGR
window system for Unix:
https://hack.org/mc/mgr/
One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the
Macintosh:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457846
gives the origins
I probably have the code in the backups of the archive that I used to maintain on the
Apple VAX
at that time. 
11:07 p.m.
On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
you can find the original c.s.unix files here
http://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/volume17/mgr
Oh ... that's going to be a slippery slope.
I've already downloaded 108 MB and plan on integrating the messages into
a Maildir where -- I think -- my MUA will make it trivial to read
messages. }:-)
I looked through the index.2 file from volume 29 for volumes 28, 27, and
part of 26 where I found half a dozen or more things that I want to
investigate.
I suspect I'm going to be printing that listing and highlighting things
of interest.
I think there's a rabbit hole at the bottom of the slippery slope that
I'm already sliding down.
i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the
c.s.unix archive
was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
Is that your site? Or someone else's. The URL tends to indicate the latter.
I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my site.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
11:16 p.m.
I think if you search for "comp.sources.unix archive" or maybe
"mod.sources" you should find lots of places.
I don't have a copy:)
/r$, moderator thereto
PS: Uhler presented MGR at Usenix. A year or two later he presented spiff,
a "spiffy diff" and he got much better.
11:21 p.m.
On Aug 4, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
I believe that is Andy Valencia's site. He is the author of VSTa microkernel.
i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the
c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
Is that your site? Or someone else's. The URL tends to indicate the latter. I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my
site.
I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. For instance:
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-usernet-sources-newsgroups-1994-10-1
You can also find them on googlegroups but don't know what damage they may
have done. I FTPed all comp.sources.{unix,x} posts from DEC's gatekeeper
about 20 years back. I still prefer local copies of things I may want to
check out again!
11:42 p.m.
On 8/4/22 4:21 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:
I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org.
Forgot about the Walnut Creek Sources CD from 1992
https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92
11:51 p.m.
On 8/4/22 5:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
Forgot about the Walnut Creek Sources CD from 1992
https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92
LOL
You all are feeding a -- let's go with -- questionable hobby.
At least it's cheaper than a hole in the water that you pour money into.
a.k.a. a boat.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
11:58 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 05:51:18PM -0600, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
At least it's cheaper than a hole in the water
that you pour money into.
a.k.a. a boat.
See my signature :) I bought new so most of the money poured was up
front, I paid 10x what a buddy of mine did who has the same boat
(Grady-White 228 if anyone cares) but mine just works and he is
constantly working on his. I got the better deal if you care about
your time. I want to fish, not wrench.
--
---
Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
5 Aug
5 Aug
4:26 a.m.
On 8/4/22 5:58 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
See my signature :)
I'm glad to see the :) because I did mean it as a joke and to be funny.
I bought new so most of the money poured was up front,
I paid 10x
what a buddy of mine did who has the same boat (Grady-White 228 if
anyone cares) but mine just works and he is constantly working on his.
I got the better deal if you care about your time.
There's the purchase price and then there's the total cost of ownership.
I want to fish, not wrench.
I like that phrase and it's intent.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
4 Aug
4 Aug
11:56 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 04:21:28PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
Oh, the damage that Google has done to netnews is immense. Remember
dejanews? With their spiffy search interface that would let you look for
stuff in date ranges? Yeah, google bought dejanews, killed the search
(because theirs was "better", it most definitely is not), and then did
google groups which is complete garbage.
On Aug 4, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
I believe that is Andy Valencia's site. He is the author of VSTa microkernel.
i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the
c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
Is that your site? Or someone else's. The URL tends to indicate the latter. I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on
my site.
I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. For instance:
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-usernet-sources-newsgroups-1994-10-1
You can also find them on googlegroups but don't know what damage they may
have done. 
16 Sep
16 Sep
10:51 p.m.
On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Larry McVoy wrote:
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2022 18:56:23
From: Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com>
To: Bakul Shah <bakul(a)iitbombay.org>
Cc: Grant Taylor <gtaylor(a)tnetconsulting.net>et>, tuhs(a)tuhs.org
Subject: [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 04:21:28PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
Oh, the damage that Google has done to netnews is immense. Remember
dejanews? With their spiffy search interface that would let you look for
stuff in date ranges? Yeah, google bought dejanews, killed the search
(because theirs was "better", it most definitely is not), and then did
google groups which is complete garbage.
My current boss was a news admin at Dejanews and was there during
their end days. I was the sysadmin for the datacenter (SMARTNAP) that
DejaNews was co-lo'd in. Everyone wanted to peer with my news server
since it fed directly into Dejanews' stuff which was a couple of racks
down from my stuff.
Google bought Deja and ruined it.
IXC Communications bought SMARTNAP and ruined it.
--
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
On Aug 4, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
I believe that is Andy Valencia's site. He is the author of VSTa microkernel.
i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the
c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
Is that your site? Or someone else's. The URL tends to indicate the latter. I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on
my site.
I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. For instance:
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-usernet-sources-newsgroups-1994-10-1
You can also find them on googlegroups but don't know what damage they may
have done. 
11 p.m.
On Fri, 16 Sept 2022 at 18:51, Michael Parson <mparson(a)bl.org> wrote:
My current boss was a news admin at Dejanews and was there during
their end days. I was the sysadmin for the datacenter (SMARTNAP) that
DejaNews was co-lo'd in. Everyone wanted to peer with my news server
since it fed directly into Dejanews' stuff which was a couple of racks
down from my stuff.
Google bought Deja and ruined it.
I knew the head sysadmin from Dejanews very well and I remember his story
about them being bought out by Google. Google flew in a bunch of engineers
with a bunch of disks, imaged the whole database over a weekend, and then
fired everyone. Good times.
-Henry
4 Aug
4 Aug
9:14 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 3:46 PM John Floren <john(a)jfloren.net> wrote:
[snip]
Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has
the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it
(aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...)
I got it working once under FreeBSD back in the 4.x days.
It wasn't particularly notable, or at least didn't leave much of an
impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!)
graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber
on black.
I don't know anything about it on the Mac, I'm afraid; I suspect it
probably ran in a Window under Finder, but that is pure speculation.
- Dan C.
10:07 p.m.
On Aug 4, 2022, at 2:14 PM, Dan Cross
<crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 3:46 PM John Floren <john(a)jfloren.net> wrote:
From its wikipedia entry:
The initial Macintosh port was done on a Macintosh Plus
computer using the Lightspeed C compiler. It was a hybrid
port in that many of the low-level operations were passed
on to QuickDraw instead of using the internal bitmap
code. The application did not conform to the Macintosh
user interface guidelines as it took over the entire
screen. The initial version used either available serial
port as the communications channel. A later update of the
port could use either ethernet or serial communications.
[No reference to how this was obtained]
MGR reference manual (from Stephen A. Uhler's home page):
https://sau.homeip.net/papers/mgrman.pdf
Architecture and Design of the MGR Window System:
https://sau.homeip.net/papers/arch.pdf
Here it says a port to Macintosh-Plus was done in two weeks.
[snip]
Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has
the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it
(aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...)
I got it working once under FreeBSD back in the 4.x days.
It wasn't particularly notable, or at least didn't leave much of an
impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!)
graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber
on black.
I don't know anything about it on the Mac, I'm afraid; I suspect it
probably ran in a Window under Finder, but that is pure speculation.
11:09 p.m.
On 8/4/22 4:07 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:
From its wikipedia entry:
The initial Macintosh port was done on a Macintosh Plus computer
using the Lightspeed C compiler. It was a hybrid port in that many
of the low-level operations were passed on to QuickDraw instead of
using the internal bitmap code. The application did not conform to
the Macintosh user interface guidelines as it took over the entire
screen. The initial version used either available serial port as the
communications channel. A later update of the port could use either
ethernet or serial communications.
The idea of something doing graphics over a serial port is intriguing to
me. Eliding some form of IP over a dial up connection.
The closest thing that comes to mind is Sixel or ReGIS graphics.
[No reference to how this was obtained]
MGR reference manual (from Stephen A. Uhler's home page):
https://sau.homeip.net/papers/mgrman.pdf
Architecture and Design of the MGR Window System:
https://sau.homeip.net/papers/arch.pdf
Here it says a port to Macintosh-Plus was done in two weeks.
:-)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
5 Aug
5 Aug
12:37 a.m.
On 5 Aug 2022, at 9:09 am, Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
The idea of something doing graphics over a serial port is intriguing to me. Eliding
some form of IP over a dial up connection.
The closest thing that comes to mind is Sixel or ReGIS graphics.
In the early to mid 1980s I used Tektronix storage terminals hooked up to a PDP-11 and/or
VAX. And we also had an AED terminal that did raster graphics. All via serial comms.
There's a bunch of AED documentation online, including this...
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf
<http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf>
(searching for AED graphics terminal will lead you to the user manual which has a lot more
detail and electrical specs and so on)
2:14 a.m.
On 8/4/22 5:37 PM, Andrew Newman wrote:
There's a bunch of AED documentation online,
including this...
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf
<http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf>
I worked at AED before going to Apple, to stay sort of window related, the last project I
worked on at AED was
a VME and Qbus board set that was a complete color X terminal. At the time, Jim Gettys
didn't see the point of
the product.
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/colorware_cards/pictures/screen.jpg
1:33 p.m.
This thread needs to move to COFF to continue - although my own story is
1/2 about BSD and the VAX.
On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 10:15 PM Al Kossow <aek(a)bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 8/4/22 5:37 PM, Andrew Newman wrote:
I had to chuckle when I read that. In the fall of '82 (I think), we got a
Smalltalk VM from PARC at UCB. Dave Unger, Ken Keller, and I - plus some
other folks in Patterson's systems seminar who's names I have since
forgotten, wrote a VM in C for the VAX/BSD. We used an AED512 and Keller's
graphics library from his thesis running over a 19.2 serial link as the
output. About a month after we had it running, a couple of us got to visit
PARC, and Peter Deutch showed us Smalltalk running on a Dorado. He ran his
hand with the mouse across the screen opening and closing a bunch of
windows randomly. We started laughing and Peter asked us what was so
funny. We told him what he did would have taken at least 5 minutes to
redisplay on BSD/VAX version.
Clem
ᐧ
There's a bunch of AED documentation online,
including this...
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf <
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf>
I worked at AED before going to Apple, to stay sort of window related, the
last project I worked on at AED was
a VME and Qbus board set that was a complete color X terminal.
9 Aug
9 Aug
1:46 a.m.
[ Moved to COFF ]
On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Dan Cross wrote:
[...]
It wasn't particularly notable, or at least
didn't leave much of an
impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!)
graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber
on black.
It also ran on the Applix 1616, an Aussie designed and built 68000
system; it was pretty much ahead of its time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applix_1616
-- Dave
1:50 a.m.
On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, Dave Horsfall wrote:
It also ran on the Applix 1616, an Aussie designed and
built 68000
system; it was pretty much ahead of its time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applix_1616
Oops; I forgot the article describing how MGR was ported to said box:
http://ericlindsay.com/applix/mgr.pdf
-- Dave
5 Aug
5 Aug
8:38 a.m.
John Floren <john(a)jfloren.net> wrote:
Today I came across an article about the MGR window
system for Unix:
https://hack.org/mc/mgr/
I ran it for a while on a sparcstation. Compared to X Windows on the
same hardware it was super fast. IIRC the version I used supported
color.
Although I owned a UnixPC, I never botherd to put MGR on it.
It was a neat, small footprint windowing system.
Arnold
586
days inactive
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days old
21 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
Al Kossow -
Andrew Newman -
arnold＠skeeve.com -
Bakul Shah -
Clem Cole -
Dan Cross -
Dave Horsfall -
Grant Taylor -
Henry Bent -
John Floren -
Larry McVoy -
Michael Parson -
Richard Salz