On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: I don't think they are talking about BSD4.1a having these things, but rather Research Unix Edition 8 having these things. Bell labs didn't integrate them until later. I recall reading articles at the time (1983 or 1984) that they had their own notion of what networking to use that wasn't TCP/IP due to some perceived failings of TCP/IP that they fixed with their stuff. I recall that I read it in the library in high school. Wish I'd forgotten that and recalled what the network protocol was they implemented instead... Warner

Two big debates I recall: Datagram (packets) versus virtual circuits (telephone calls). Berkeley (BSD) sockets versus Bell Labs (dmr) "streams" APIs. https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/classes/fa01/cse221/papers/ritchie-stream-io-bellla… It is important to note that the STREAMS stuff that eventually was foisted on unfortunates from USG in System V was - despite being derived from Ritchie's work - yet another ... thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STREAMS dmr was trying to replace the abomination that the tty drivers had become (and I still wish we'd adopted his APIs and work for that purpose to this day), but trying to force everything into a connection-oriented framework for a datagram/packet network has conceptual limitations, and to AT&T's chagrin, the Internet is not an X.25 or Datakit network. Plan 9 also had some interesting work in it that I wish we'd adopted. Erik Fair

SunOS-4.0 was released in December of 1988, if I remember correctly. I had a streams based tty driver sometime in 1987 and I was just duplicating what Dennis et al has done in the Labs. But I brag. Dennis' streams paper was publicshed in the BTJ in October 1984. Regarding Plan 9, the system I use today. In the 3rd edition the streams mechanisms were reduced to the Block structure to hold and pass data, and the Queue. The dynamic aspects removed because they were never used. There’s no tty in Plan 9 so no need for a tty line discipline . Brantley bwc(a)coraid.com http://coraid.com

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-01-07/business/fi-33970_1_sun-microsystems You might have the year wrong. The agreement between AT&T and Sun was announced in 1988. A year would be about right to incorporate some of the new stuff. But getting back to your original comment that you are not aware of any streams implementation before SunOS-4.0, do you mean that it was the first you became aware of? Certainly System V, from whence it came, predated SunOS-4.0 and 8th Edition predated that. My copy of the tty_ld(4) man page was printed Feb 10, 1985. Brantley bwc(a)coraid.com http://coraid.com

Brantley Coile <brantleycoile(a)me.com> wrote: Well, maybe I was mistaken and 1987 was the year of NeWS and 1988 was the year of SunOS-4.0. SVr4 was the first "SystemV" with a streams based tty driver and this driver was the driver taken from SunOS-4.0. You can verify this by looking at the bug-fix that was needed to make it work at all. The AT&T concept had a bug as it did not allow to switch from raw mode to cooked mode mode without loosing all characters in the buffer. Sun fixed this by introducing a new mesage that says: Someone is going to read 5 chars, so transfer 5 chars from the edit-buffer upstream but keep the rest. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling(a)fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: I'll take a side trip to answer this question.... 4.1A was the first BSD version that had the beginning of the wnj rewrite of the BBN code, but did have an IP stack based on the BBN but with the beginnings of a new API. (Again, if I can get some tapes read, I used to have 4.1A and 4.1B tapes). FYI: straight 4.1 (GA code if you will) did have a IP stack - just not from UCB nor a new API to use it. Please remember, UCB *did not have the contract* for networking support for DARPA, BBN did. For an API, the BBN code used the Chaosnet trick in nami of leaving text chars at the next of the open call as parameters - i.e. open ("/dev/tcp/mumble") and the TCP device would take if their. Hence with that hack, no new system calls were used (just the traditional open/close/read/write). Joy would create sockets/bind et al in response to the CMU Accent System that they were building for DARPA on the triple-drip PERQs. But the IP stack itself was from BBN (Gurwitz code). BTW: That's were the dreadful mbuf's code came from. Bill also tried to get some other stacks besides IP inside of the sockets framework, such as XNS and the ISO code, but in fact that would take much hacking to sockets before it worked (in a sense). That said, it was the release of 4.1C to the DARPA contractors and some other specific places (such as Sun, Apollo, and Masscomp that I know) and later the GA of 4.2BSD that made the IP stack for UNIX spread. With BSD4.2 came two things for networking the full sockets API and sendmail as its SMTP implementation (the BBN smtp was not used or released). FYI: BBN (Rob) had written a somewhat OS independant IP/TCP stack (mbufs were created so he could be independant of any specific OS kernel's memory scheme). It ran in HP's 1000s and 3000's IIRC and a few other systems. This was the code that was spliced in 4.1, as was the user level code (telnet, ftp and smtp -- this without hacking BSD's delivermail stuff). BBN would take 4.2 back and do an update beyond that but for whatever reasons, few places ever really picked that code base up (we used it in Stellix as we found it easier to make it parallel then the BSD code base). Also, Eric Cooper and I put the BBN stack on the original 4.1 UCB CAD systems on a Xerox 3M ethernet before 4.1A was available. IIRC Sam Leffler was actually using the BBN code base to write the rcp/rsh/rexec and routed stuff after seeing some of the XNS/PUP stuff at Xerox (routed is pretty much a direct "rip-off" of the XNS way of doing routing) and that got spliced into the wnj's stuff later. Clem

below On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:52 AM, Tony Finch <dot(a)dotat.at> wrote: ​Sorry - yes, force of habit of many years ago, ​ ​ I suppose I should be happy that my fingers did not call the Perq by it's sometimes (CMU) name, the "PascAlto."​ A number of my friends and colleagues in those days made money by working over there. That said, I do miss the GPD - aka the Graphics Wonder which was, IMHO, their best product. A vector graphics system with a dedicated PDP-11. Some of the coolest programs I ever ran on the CMU PDP-10's displayed on the "GDPs." I still have a technical manual for it and have had a private dream of trying to put it into simh to try to resurrect some of those old codes (ah yes -- something else for my retirement "bucket list" - real work gets in the way). Clem