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by allisonp＠world.std.com

<uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 <vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ <klesiu0 at uba0 That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT pass grant! <Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for <a good cause, okay? ) I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22534 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:19:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Sun Mar 1 02:18:57 1998 Received: from holyrood.ed.ac.uk (jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk [129.215.166.17]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22526 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:19:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from jlothian@localhost) by holyrood.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20434 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:18:57 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:18:57 GMT Message-Id: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> From: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Subject: RL02 meets BSD To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last device on the bus. James Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA23015 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar 1 03:58:27 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA23010 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:13 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA14586; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD To: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK (J Lothian) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> from "J Lothian" at Feb 28, 98 04:18:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 set to? > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24673 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:46:02 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar 1 14:45:51 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24668 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:45:56 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA18387; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:52 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9803010445.AA18387(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary: Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an "internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73 (KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory. Caching on both controllers was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem. Times reported below are "wall times". All of this is done under the latest release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work being done on the system. 1. "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller. I think Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive itself makes this a minor concern. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25119 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:01:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:02:45 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25114 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:01:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08233; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:01:35 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20312; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:02:46 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:02:45 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: That RL02 blues In-Reply-To: <199802281508.AA24580(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090135.20308A-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Grant chain was intact on both machines. On the second machine the MSCP device was placed below the RLV12 and the RA disk worked fine! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 > <vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv > <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt > <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt > <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ > <klesiu0 at uba0 > > > That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if > one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT > pass grant! > > <Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for > <a good cause, okay? ) > > I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience > with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under > rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup. > > Allison > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25136 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:05:29 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:06:26 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25131 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:05:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08261; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:05:21 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20317; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:06:27 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:06:26 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090322.20308B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Both systems have "pirate" drive controllers and they have cards that do pass grant signals. If I do not remember wrongly, I think that only RQDX-1 had the "feature" of not passing the grant chain. But we placed all RQDX controller at the bottom anyhow even though they worked further up. THis is of academical interest only since I do not have holes in the grant chain and do not have an RQDX controllers AND I have devices below the drive controller in the first case that do work! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, J Lothian wrote: > I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running > BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of > buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other > devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, > UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. > Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates > as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus > to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger > silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. > > James > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25220 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:37:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:37:58 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25215 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:36:57 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08432; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:36:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20351; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:59 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:58 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> cc: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090940.20308C-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk For various reasons I can not give you the hardware config of the first system (Okay okay! I DO not want to crawl back in behind it under all the cabling and short out the house again because I did something aggravating to the power outlet in the process the last time I was in there) but the only thing I did to that one was to add the RLV12 at the bottom. The system worked before with all devices and did so afterwards too except for the RLV-controller. The second system looks like this: A B C D 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA 5 SI------SI------SI------SI GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN (this used to be a VAX-station II. Remember them and cringe!) SI is a quad ESDI controller for one or two external drives from System Industries. On the other system I have a dual SI controller for RA81 clones (Eagle). There I DO have an RQDX-3 above the RLV12 but not so here. Grant chain on the uVAX bus looks like this: 1AB-2AB-3AB-4AB-4CD-5CD-5AB(and so on). The first three slots are "granted" only in the AB pair. The RLV12 does work with grants only on the AB pair however. It works fine in my three button 9 slot 22 bit backplane (classical PDP11 vintage rack mount cab) and there the grant chain goes ONLY on the AB side stright down (BA11-N and H9273). So, no, I do not think we have a grant problem. However, does the RLV12 handle drive interrupt like the RL11 does? It could be that ULTRIX only supports the UNIBUS controller and not the Qbus.. And if so, is there a fix for this out there? And if not, how do I get hold of enough NetBSD to get a uVAX up enough to have the config above, being able to network and being able to reach both the SI controller and the RLV12? Come to think of it, most of the no nonsense hard hat industry type PDP11's I've seen (and especially the OEM-ed ones) got some sort of winchester emulating one or several RL02s. Often combined with some sort of QIC-type tape recorder with secret density. To get ANYTHING on those rigs, I think you HAVE to do it the dd way after having moved the controller to a bigger system.... Amazing how things can turn... I used to spend a lot of time in trying to get away from the 16 bit operating systems into the wonderful world of 32 bit. Now I am struggling even harder to get back in there again. =) Fun is not always bigger, faster better! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > > &c. > > This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the > machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 > set to? > > > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > > device on the bus. > > I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. > > Tim. > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA26727 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:58:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 2 04:57:46 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA26722 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:57:59 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA28081; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9803011857.AA28081(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD To: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 (PST) Cc: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090940.20308C-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 1, 98 09:37:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > The second system looks like this: > A B C D > 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU > 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM > 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 > 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA > 5 SI------SI------SI------SI > GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN > (this used to be a VAX-station II. > Remember them and cringe!) Ah, the "RC" aka "restricted configuration" aka "resin-coated" backplane. The BA23 has a special CD-bus in the first three slots. Usually it's not a problem to put a full-height card in the third slot, below the CPU and memory, but occasionally there are quad-height cards which actually pay some attention to stuff going on the CD side of the bus. Can you try rearranging your cards so that you have a dual-height card (i.e. the TKQ50 or DEQNA) in slot 3 AB, you have the 3 CD empty, and the RLV12 in slot 4? This involves you giving up either your TKQ50 or DEQNA, but I'm hoping that you can live without one or the other for a little while. Also, how are the jumpers/DIPswitches set on the RLV12? It's possible to do some weird things by sticking the RLV12 into 16-bit or 18-bit mode or by having the VEC set to something used by one of your other cards. If either of these is the case, regard the fact that the controller isn't usable as a Good Thing; having a RLV12 in 18-bit mode splatter data all around low memory isn't fun! Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26876 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:43:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Mar 2 05:25:54 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26871 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:43:45 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08986; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998 > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) Andromeda Systems, Inc. 9000 Eton Avenue Canoga Park, CA 91304 818-709-7600 (voice) 818-709-7407 (FAX) No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. WOW. That is quite surprising. > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' operations. Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb "zip like" (but not compatible) drive. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26957 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:53 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 2 06:09:46 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA26952 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:49 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA19319; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9803012009.AA19319(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an > I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they > are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) > Andromeda Systems, Inc. > 9000 Eton Avenue > Canoga Park, CA 91304 > 818-709-7600 (voice) > 818-709-7407 (FAX) > > No mention of a WWW site though. Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/ > I'd imagine their boards, while > very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive > on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind! The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies. > > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. > > WOW. That is quite surprising. > > > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, > > Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' > operations. Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the 'find'. I suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite early on. In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes close to the SCDC. 2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive. > Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware. 100 Mbytes is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit. Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27003 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:32:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

1
0
0 0

That RL02 blues.

by Beastly Wolf

Synopsis: I am trying to install an RLV12 and an RL02 drive under ULTRIX so that I can generate RL02 disks from the emulator software in the PUPS software library. The ultimate goal is to have a machine where one can copy bootable systems to people who do not have any vintage UNIX but have the hardware. However! There sure is a great fat wall to bump into here.... First try was a uVAX-II that is a part of my collection of vintage machines. This rig runs Ultrix 4.2 (with updates). Here is the system messages when booting the GENERIC kernel: Loading (a) vmunix ... sizes: text = 719932 data = 116224 bss = 398512 starting at 0xc19 ULTRIX V4.2 (Rev. 96) System#1: Mon Feb 23 13:40:07 EST 1998 real mem = 7335936 avail mem = 4779008 using 179 buffers containing 733184 bytes of memory. MicroVAX-II with an fpu Q22 bus uda0 at uba0 uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt ^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ klesiu0 at uba0 uq6 at klesiu0 and so on. The system then successfully loads uq16, dz0, ra0 and tms0. This is what I did so far: 1) I made a system configuration file containing only the devices I got plus hl0 (that is the RL02 driver). Same effect as above. 2) To rule out that this was something in hardware I built an entire new machine from scratch using spare parts. Not ONE thing was used from the original system. I also installed ULTRIX 4.0 to be sure. Guess what... When booting the GENERIC kernel, the same thing occured. During all test: The RL02-drive(s) were spun up with a scratch disk in them. On both systems they were set as drive 0 and had terminators. *despair* When trying to reach the disk by make-ing a file system on it, the system snorts at me telling me to go and fly a kite. Watch this: # newfs /dev/rrl0a rl02 newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open to read partition table: No such device or address newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open: No such device or address However, the device files are in place. System just can not find the board. =/ Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for a good cause, okay? ) /Lars Persson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22081 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:08:57 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

1
0
0 0

Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources

by rmsmith＠csc.com

Warren, and the rest of us! Thanks! Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would with the license discussion! I will take what I can get to be legal! Thanks for all the work on this!! bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12525 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:57:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Feb 27 01:57:39 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12520 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:57:49 +1100 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07382; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:40 GMT Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id PAA13264; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT Message-Id: <199802261557.PAA13264(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <199802242217.JAA22990(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of stuff from System V?). I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs 4.2 (not a vax...). I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way. Does anyone know what the real story is? --tim -- Tim Bradshaw, System Manager, Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute, University of Edinburgh Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13228 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Feb 27 06:23:30 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13222 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:50 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA26835 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802262023.HAA26835(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Bradshaw: > I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read > this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of > the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free > already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're > derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of > stuff from System V?). No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the 4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax. Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs, and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get out licenses?! P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license? I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17819 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:24:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 28 05:07:40 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17814 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:24:21 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25828; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199802271907.LAA25828(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: grog(a)lemis.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Howdy - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 > (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150? I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work at all. The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes). I can make TK25 tapes. I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)). > > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. > > Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's > a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. You've me to thank for that ;-) > That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM > wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and applied. > One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses > RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to Of course! There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that need help with long filenames or deep directories. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18053 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:38:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sat Feb 28 06:37:13 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (ehp-1.mail.demon.net [193.195.0.154]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA18048 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:38:48 +1100 (EST) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa0125289; 27 Feb 98 20:38 GMT Message-ID: <mBJJxWA5Py90EwEW(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xwlBrCeVCW> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > >Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > >I'd like to see: > > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73. This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage is reimbursed. Robin PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future. Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20210 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:35:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Feb 28 11:35:28 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20205 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:35:40 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04807; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:29 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA15673; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:29 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980228120528.31861(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <199802271907.LAA25828(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802271907.LAA25828(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:07:40AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Howdy - > >> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> >>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm >>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. >> >> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's >> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. > > You've me to thank for that ;-) Indeed. Thanks. >> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM >> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > applied. Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff to be up to date? Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20480 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Feb 28 14:17:37 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20475 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:42 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA20644; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:38 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9802280417.AA20644(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861(a)freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > > applied. > > Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred > CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff > to be up to date? You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20523 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:39:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Feb 28 14:39:26 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20518 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:39:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05019; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA16706; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980228150926.00518(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <19980228120528.31861(a)freebie.lemis.com> <9802280417.AA20644(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <9802280417.AA20644(a)alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:17:37PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. >>> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either >>> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD >>> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and >>> applied. >> >> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred >> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff >> to be up to date? > > You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that > he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. > > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved, it might be easier to burn WORMs. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20542 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:44:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 28 14:43:41 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20537 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:44:06 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00780; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Tim - > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;) > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? > It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the ISO9660 filesystem. Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading in popularity. > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20703 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:07:33 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Feb 28 16:07:21 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA20698 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:07:28 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA30497; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:22 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9802280607.AA30497(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just under a megabyte per second. In other words: damn fast. (Fast 7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second). Booting from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54. I posted some benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago. > I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive > for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable > that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the > rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. That aren't all that rare. You just have to go someplace other than Fry's, that's all :-). > > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. > > Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up > with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to > the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not > with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 > appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect > the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). > The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs > at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors > do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size- block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized "virtual" blocks. (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you automagically.) > > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will > > Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the > ISO9660 filesystem. That's OK. The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like 4 512-byte blocks. And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem; if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down. I've built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way. > > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? > > It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via > the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes > needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's > memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but > argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of > swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:). > but it's not > clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-). I find the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart! Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)

27 years, 2 months

1
0
0 0

Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion <is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest I find this distressing as putting up unix an my 11/73 is dependent on availability of all the correct parts being available(drivers et al). While I believe thre are versions that can be put on the machine I do not know enough to speculate how or what device requirements there would be. What comes to mind, can it be configured to exploit the hardware? Or maybe the question should be is there a copy complete enough that has all of the installion templates? <to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can <distribute the image with every license. That would make sense, readable under dos, linux? <If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provide <we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are <going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwi Definately should be written notification for manageability at their end. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA08330 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:57:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 07:58:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08325 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:57:09 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25252 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802252158.IAA25252(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: System III (fwd) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain ----- >From afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> X-Sender: afrb2(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> To: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: System III Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980225140211.13155I-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk> I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!). Hope you track down a copy.... I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5 versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it. There may have even been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here. The CL are hopelessly disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain proprietary software. However I now have access to a half inch drive on a sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also). If anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them. Alan Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08405 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:10:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Thu Feb 26 00:07:03 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:10:43 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25371 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802252212.JAA25371(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F(a)pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Paul McJones: > Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been > published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated > cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to > me. Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th > edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with > SCO's latest? No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers as designated CPUs. They probably did this to: + minimise the work they had to do, and + prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant: e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example). That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!! [Maybe I'm just being paranoid here]. Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU restriction in the new license. I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen. Mind you, don't hold him to that! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08480 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:35:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 08:37:10 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08475 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:35:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25560 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802252237.JAA25560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Dion in SCO says: > What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd > be prepared to do this? > Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and > free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already > have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. > > E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a > filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS > society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out > how to service the new guy. Would that work? So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08656 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Feb 26 09:24:34 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08651 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11743; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA01636; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980226095434.51853(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <199802252237.JAA25560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802252237.JAA25560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:37:10AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > Dion in SCO says: > >> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd >> be prepared to do this? > >> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and >> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already >> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. >> >> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a >> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS >> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out >> how to service the new guy. Would that work? > > So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO > license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Don't say I didn't tell you. I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08684 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 09:35:25 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08679 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25775 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Don't say I didn't tell you. Oh, I was expecting this. > I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. > Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a > period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the > CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. > I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, > and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of > tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write > (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. I'd like to see: + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd need the volunteers to have PGP too. If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. We're going to have to work on this in the next few months. Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09286 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Feb 26 10:00:14 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09236 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:23 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11810; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:15 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA01823; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980226103014.06033(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <19980226095434.51853(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=wLpm8qysLVxtbajz X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:35:25AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > > Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > > I'd like to see: > >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > > in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Europe and UK separately, eh? > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to be limited to DOS-style naming. > As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably > via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd > need the volunteers to have PGP too. Not a problem. > If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. > You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. Seems reasonable. Greg -- Greg Lehey LEMIS grog(a)lemis.com PO Box 460 Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAzTb3SMAAAEEAMS8rCMuqbX0llo8lPuE+m1/bHTNN4q3o2OFi1t9WXlYd063 XslucmHTYRk+f0OznRpcAuyr1pvYqfnl0Gi5uys/CopKiwaouXZYjSW6PzVnTQza QJKuQwlpSUJhrcj9qXn5CW6FCLRXRcZdSezTZmDPV2jKXadD30ciy96pXaeVAAUR tA5ncm9nQGxlbWlzLmNvbYkAlQMFEDTb3SRHIsveqV2nlQEBnbQD+wf6JL7GgPbM Ql+TK9ZpYUBo+brvkg4GdgWVHbiHEue8dxm0vgEB+K4GpCJEYAx+x6L7ZM4iF4Nv axzS1UrVru9IYforM51jODk4mxZAySTspIbEzmBTY5/7N2i3b4kkiqeCdVKTy2c2 fwkb1+F6EZXY8xaxIFtu3NGRxR0Pd2Am =M7yb -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBNPSwjkciy96pXaeVAQEgtgP/Qnhw4BNOveBwTgF/kOjc0GO/kkXaMMy1 vgsjWjJDlSsoN7wsI/7Nk2pLlrSfLQ7IM2lrMHOJ8CP1CP/UevcaRGeLIXFk7FNA sF/53EXOk+unWEnqMdxK62ihWToXUpJDC3bG7XtkxndeqnJOCDOazkx2tzi9HZO/ 9UkX6U4MXNo= =szjT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz-- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09900 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:37:42 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

1
0
0 0

Re: Project generate RL02.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane only! RLV12 nominal CSR is 17774400, Vector 160 ^^ DEQNA nominal CSR is 17774440, Vector 120 ^^ I positioned the text to show how similar they are but not the same. <snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system. <What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the <RL02 controller was the same. No they are not. <I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kerne No need to. <What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t <darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the <line? likely yes, the drive must be connected. Also recheck you haven't interrupted the bus grant sequence with the mix of quad wide and dual wide cards. <Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers <laying about! =) ). It is possible. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA03424 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:30:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Wed Feb 25 02:29:38 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA03419 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:30:20 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA03005; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9802241629.AA03005(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Project generate RL02. To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802241447.AA20016(a)world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > <I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and > > I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not > usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane > only! Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a RLV11 set to a uVax. Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes! The 18-bit-ness of the RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome like, say, the RXV21. > <What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t > <darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the > <line? > > likely yes, the drive must be connected. Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like 2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have my RL units #0 when booting. To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380: Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380) Description: 1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0 is connected to the system at boot time. Repeat-by: 1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive 0 not present. 'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as a result the rl driver will not be attached. Fix: 1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for an interrupt. This is the same thing which is done in the TS11 probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not online. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04419 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 08:17:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04414 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:15 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22990 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802242217.JAA22990(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- All, Here is the DRAFT of the license for the PDP-11 versions of UNIX. Please treat this as a IN CONFIDENCE email and do not pass it on to other people. If you have any adverse comments, pass them back to the mailing list as well as Dion Johnson. Warren - ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- DRAFT - for discussion purposes - comments to dionj(a)sco.com please, and to Warren Toomey, et al, as you see fit. Please do not distribute this widely. -Dion Dion L. Johnson II - The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. dionj(a)sco.com Czar of Free Stuff and Technical customers' advocate. 400 Encinal St. Santa Cruz, CA 95061 FAX: 408-427-5417 Voice: 408-427-7565 ============================================================================== Agreement Number: ________________ THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT A. 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To assist in obtaining the credit identified in (i) of this Section 5.05, LICENSEE shall furnish SCO with such evidence as may be required by United States taxing authorities to establish that any such tax has been paid. The Fee specified in Section 6.1 above do not include taxes. If SCO is required to collect a tax to be paid by LICENSEE, LICENSEE shall pay such tax to SCO on demand. 7. TERM 7.1 This Agreement shall become effective on and as of the date of acceptance by SCO. The initial term of this Agreement shall be for one (1) year. Thereafter, the Agreement will automatically renew for successive one (1) year terms unless either party gives the other, no later than ninety (90) days before the end of the initial term, or then current extension, written notice of its intent to terminate this Agreement. 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MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS 8.1 This Agreement shall prevail notwithstanding any conflicting terms or legends which may appear in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. 8.2 If, and only if, SCO is the entity that provides SOURCE CODE PRODUCT to LICENSEE, SCO warrants for a period of ninety (90) days from furnishing a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT to LICENSEE hereunder, that any magnetic medium on which portions of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT are furnished will be free under normal use from defects in materials, workmanship or recording. If such a defect appears within such warranty period LICENSEE may return the defective medium for replacement without charge. Replacement is LICENSEE's sole remedy with respect to such a defect. SCO also warrants that it is empowered to grant the rights granted herein. SCO and other developers make no other representations or warranties, expressly or impliedly. 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Box 7745 San Francisco, CA 94120-7745 (b) Correspondence with SCO relating to this Agreement shall be sent to: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. 400 Encinal Street Santa Cruz, California 95061-1900 United States of America Attention: Law and Corporate Affairs (c) Any statement, notice, request or other communication shall be deemed to be sufficiently given to the addressee and any delivery hereunder deemed made when sent by certified mail addressed to LICENSEE at its office specified in this Agreement or to SCO at the appropriate address specified in this Section 7.7. Each party to this Agreement may change an address relating to it by written notice to the other party. 8.9 LICENSEE shall obtain all approvals from any governmental authority in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY required to effectuate this Agreement according to its terms, including any such approvals required for LICENSEE to make payments to SCO pursuant to this Agreement. LICENSEE shall bear all expenses associated with obtaining such approvals. 8.10 The construction and performance of this Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the State of California, USA. SCO-Soft. Sp.-022498 - ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNPNG8UbObQUa2Z5FAQHpegP+NVXKbrF3mci56ivf05oBGu/vdaHS8vws 7OZH/C7i1iz9XvDSPqjlI/PzMl5NSeep2B6TcMgg/qzNAel2bOJK41I9h7R3YrzC IgB0bRE5A2ZbkxkKlp2mIc7gwdTfN6eeKIsPfFaoQJn4WZsJwQu0eym33gf86LkE 5luusgBe5Uk= =otzx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05224 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:34 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:05:43 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05219 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:30 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23864 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802250305.OAA23864(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Chris Drake: > Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable... > A couple of questions, though: > > - it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more > than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset. Or > is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee? > > - this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of > the OS specified. Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee? > > - Chris Drake I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions (e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.) The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries. I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as: All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1 to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05244 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:08:53 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05239 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:25 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23877 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802250308.OAA23877(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Allison J Parent: > Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the > media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media > (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 > including machine readable media that would be something more > agreeable. > > What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for > that vversion on media? I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can distribute the image with every license. If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05398 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:35:25 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05393 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:33:56 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23908 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802250335.OAA23908(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III. Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive? Thanks, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05409 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Feb 25 13:34:11 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05404 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10601; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:12 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA27075; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:12 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980225140411.14345(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources References: <199802250259.AA24622(a)world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802250308.OAA23877(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:08:53PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Allison J Parent: >> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the >> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media >> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 >> including machine readable media that would be something more >> agreeable. >> >> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for >> that vversion on media? > > I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion > is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest > to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can > distribute the image with every license. How many CDs are we looking at? Maybe I can arrange something. > If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided > we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are > going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification". Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05534 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:58:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05529 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:28 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24047 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802250358.OAA24047(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 Applications To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Dear All, I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems. I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977. Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB. Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix are on the 'net?? If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD. Ta, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05636 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:19:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Feb 25 14:07:04 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05631 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:19:12 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24149 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:20:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05560 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:07:15 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10639 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA27233; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980225143704.65511(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems. Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other. I've added a new user with vipw. When I try to change the password, I get this: login: root Password: Last login: Sat Aug 9 02:25:12 on console 2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST [1] root--> passwd grog Changing password for grog. New password: Retype new password: passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged. [2] root--> If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine. But that way I can't change my password. Any ideas? Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06632 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:06:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

1
0
0 0

Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+

by rmsmith＠csc.com

Thanks for tweaking the list! Holidays were great in the DC area (USA). Weather was NICE. Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on my cars instead of my 11s. The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble. The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a little run. Brakes are acting up. Rain prevents getting at that in the driveway. With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!! waiting for Linux!! thanks! bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14931 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998 Received: from asd ([209.1.236.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14926 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:07 +1100 (EST) Received: by shared1-mail.whowhere.com id <37014-251>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:08 -0800 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 From: "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Message-ID: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA(a)shared1-mail.whowhere.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) X-Sender-Ip: 203.34.247.61 Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA16207 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:46:34 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Feb 20 03:46:10 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16202 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:46:28 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip6.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.106]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27383; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34EC6FE2.56FC890(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:10 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Kraus <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) References: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA(a)shared1-mail.whowhere.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/ The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted. You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies. There isn't any networking support. Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA and a transceiver. ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS software, which can do DECNET. Dave Michael Kraus wrote: > > G'day All... > > In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. > > I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local > network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, > and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). > > Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in > which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the > terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). > > I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. > > Anyone who can help, please let me know. > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for David C. Jenner Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: David C. Jenner n: Jenner;David C. adr: 3153 N.E. 84th Street;;;Seattle;WA;98115-4717;USA email;internet: djenner(a)halcyon.com tel;fax: 206-527-2019 tel;home: 206-527-2018 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE-- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16813 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:37:00 +1100 (EST) >From "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16808 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:36:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10590 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:37:51 +1100 (EST) Received: from csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.20.6]) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA10240 for <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:35:48 +1100 (EST) Received: from octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au (octarine-253.cc.adfa.oz.au [131.236.253.20]) by csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24750 for <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.160]) by octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04446 for <wkt(a)octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:53 +1100 (EST) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14931 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from asd ([209.1.236.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14926 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:07 +1100 (EST) Received: by shared1-mail.whowhere.com id <37014-251>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:08 -0800 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 From: "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Message-ID: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA(a)shared1-mail.whowhere.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) X-Sender-Ip: 203.34.247.61 Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25372 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:28:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Feb 22 21:29:18 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25367 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:28:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA11916 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:28:14 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09227; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:19 +0100 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:18 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware In-Reply-To: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA(a)shared1-mail.whowhere.com> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi gang! Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk to make it bootable? IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps be used to ship things in... Comments anyone? /Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26798 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Feb 23 07:44:14 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26793 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:08 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA15297; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:15 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802222144.IAA15297(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Putting that UNIX on hardware To: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Beastly Wolf: > Hi gang! > > Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? > Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. > Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and > then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. > Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. > Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to > put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk > to make it bootable? I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this. The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going. > IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? > If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt > IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen > for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. > Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!! Thanks, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01182 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:42 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Feb 24 10:36:58 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01177 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17631 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802240036.LAA17631(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which could be affected by the license clauses. I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO. I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've agreed with the draft license terms. More news as soon as I have it.... Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02247 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Tue Feb 24 18:05:36 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02242 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:34 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12007 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:04:28 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA12154; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:37 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:36 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Project generate RL02. Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980224085257.12101D-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi again gang! It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware with dd, as my theory went. So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig. I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat. Here goes: My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50, DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think). I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system. What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the RL02 controller was the same. Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though. Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt. I do not have a drive connected though. I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector. No go. Same message. I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have! So here is the problem: What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the line? Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers laying about! =) ). If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL kinda rack and is hard to service. /Lars Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA03167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:47:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

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Virtual Tape Server - RL02s work

by Warren Toomey

For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now. The next version is at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA10966 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:07:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Bob Lash <bob(a)wbs.net> Wed Feb 18 17:06:47 1998 Received: from webchat2.wbs.net (ws3.wbs.net [207.88.172.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10961 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:06:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from bob@localhost) by webchat2.wbs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA06845; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lash <bob(a)wbs.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000(a)webchat2.wbs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. These worked exactly as billed. If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. Best wishes, Bob Lash bob(a)wbs.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST From: Bob Armstrong <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> To: bob(a)wbs.net Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget to tell you tomorrow: 1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity. 2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot. The unix boot program will print an "@" almost immediately. [This is really annoying, because the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think that the machine has crashed!] 3) Type "unix" and RETURN. This is the kernel name, and when you are able to build your own kernels you can type a different name. If you make any typos you'll have to reboot. The boot pretends that you can try again if you make a mistake, but don't believe it! 3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z (not ^D!) to start time sharing. 4) It will prompt for the date and time. Note that the date doesn't give you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework, did you :-) 5) You'll get a "login:" prompt. The password to root is "pdp". 6) You're on your own. Have fun! Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you try your first boot with the pack write locked. Unix will panic right after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the hardware works. Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first. This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if you shut down without syncing. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13383 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:58:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Bob Armstrong <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> Tue Feb 10 15:06:31 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13378 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:58:15 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09626 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802182259.JAA09626(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000(a)webchat2.wbs.net> from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Bob Lash: > I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob > Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 > pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) > > Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. > These worked exactly as billed. > > If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. > Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The > part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. > > Bob Lash > bob(a)wbs.net Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-) On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license. All this for a 20-year old piece of software! This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas, and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from George Colouris in England and read its contents? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14215 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:16:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

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Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes < <The 16540 has only one byte buffer. Oops mixed it op with a compatable hybrid... < <> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. < <The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes. Some fo the super integration chips (FDC, IDE, 2SIO and parallel) have extended that to 32. <Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys. This is RT-11 and RSTS and I don't have a UNIX on the q-buss -11s. I could recompile RT but, Qbus, interrupt priority is based on position relative to the cpu, In mine its memory, serial io and then all the rest in order of decreasing speed. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25982 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Feb 1 17:47:25 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25977 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:04 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA12606 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802010747.SAA12606(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Virtual PDP Tape - update To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks. RP03 disks. RK05 disks. RL01 and RL02 disks. Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources. I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is installed, you will be able to do: $ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf - and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up. I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-) Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Feb 2 13:44:29 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28780 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23220 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802020344.OAA23220(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s. This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on. I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be vanilla V7 and should work with no problems. A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD (again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install code would need to change. Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the RL02 problems?!! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01650 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Feb 3 08:04:20 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01645 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:50 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA24121 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802022204.JAA24121(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Swedish PUPS To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Did I send this PDP message on to the list? Warren ----- Forwarded message from beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- From: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788@sylvester.> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PUPS Membership Hi PDP lovers! My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden. I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones. Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS. IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw. I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25 has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help? Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS, 11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs) and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations). In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02 floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it. I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long time. =) Regards! /Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center ----- End of forwarded message from beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02592 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:49:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

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Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> <The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with <something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but <useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they <were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device The tu58 also knows MRSP but the host still has to buffer a 128(plus wrapper) packet in one blast. It's assumption is that the host has plenty of ram and a suitable buffer should be no problem at most data rates. Call it a design error. It's also something that has to be dealt with in all cases of serial communication. As boot device, I used to take the average 750 console tape and rearrange it and on average cut the load time by 60% or more. Seeks are slow being 30 seconds end to end. The fewer the better also the ordder of files can make a difference. I use it to boot a PDT11/130 and also an 11/23 in a BA11va (four slot box). and it's accept able IF the files are in the best order for access. <I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work <reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first <time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to <disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt. I have some data and the problem was on the 11/44 console side. It could not keep up with the 9600 baud data from the tu58. <The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to <something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) <had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get <the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips <machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte. <Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand <interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 <baud serial line I'd think. they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it. <Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips <(an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a <286. No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k. the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween. In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus. My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02) are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not ack'd. You don't need a lot of mips to recieve data at 9600 and put it in a buffer for later use. Coding a routine to do it reliably is sometimes not as easy as it may look. Also coding in HLL (even C) can add overhead not anticipated and slows execution. the problem in most PDP-11s is the serial buffer in ram is rarely 140 bytes (data plus wrapper) so that 1mS you have then includes the whole file system and that takes a lot of mips to keep up with. <The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems <all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk <interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough <that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun. That would do it. Try using a DH or DZ interface as they have a silo and can sustain higher rates. <If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high <serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a <kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the <data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM. <that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is <lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over <9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to <make its way to disk. The serial TU58 however does not have hardware flow control though it can be hacked on to the board. (hint inhibit the TX empty interrupt to the 8085.) FYI the PDT11/130 got around this by using a parallel interface tu58. The parallel interfaced tu58 cannot send a byte until the receiving system take the last one. At one time to prove a point I did do a hacked up tu58 with hardware flow control and a matching DLV card and ran it at 38.4, the performance was impressive even under heavy RSX11 loading. DEC did not do this as it would be a major redesign/requal of the product. They did know the problem well however. The key is look at interupt latency. PDP-11s are OK but when you add something like burst mode DMA where the CPU can be off the buss effectively for significant periods of time there can be performance hits. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25353 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:46:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sun Feb 1 12:45:58 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25348 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:46:02 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29575; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:59 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA08065; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980201131558.50751(a)lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution References: <199801311818.AA26294(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199801311818.AA26294(a)world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: >> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> > >> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to >> something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) >> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get >> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips >> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. > > I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the > driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte. Sure. UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high async interrupt performance. >> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand >> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 >> baud serial line I'd think. > > they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes The 16540 has only one byte buffer. > and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes. > That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there > is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it. That's more to the point. Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20. I regularly get 50-60k interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer, and I think the printer is the limiting factor there. > >> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips >> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a >> 286. > > No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k. > the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween. > In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus. > > My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02) > are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is > real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not > ack'd. Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys. > Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right > my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM. Ah. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25590 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:21:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

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Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block'' <which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from resto <My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill th <10,240 request, but still problems. Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction (read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all that fast and OS overhead can make that longer. Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between. If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at 38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing processing to write (via file system) to disk and recieving data at the same time. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21620 for pups-liszt; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Jan 31 08:06:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21615 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07375; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:43 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199801302206.JAA07375(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:42 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199801301446.AA19117(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jan 30, 98 09:46:31 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Allison J Parent: > > <I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block'' > <which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from resto > <My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill th > <10,240 request, but still problems. > > Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. I found the problem - my dump image was corrupt :-). I now have a clean v7 dump of /, and there are no complaints from restor. I've had a few people volunteer to try out the code. I'll clean it up, finish off the docs, and put it up for ftp in a few days, with an email on the PUPS mailing list on how to retrieve it. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22547 for pups-liszt; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:52:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jan 31 15:36:05 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22542 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:52:10 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA23209 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199801310536.VAA23209(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - I thought I'd chime in with my experience with "high" speed serial transfers... > From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > > Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was > a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds > above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device to be used while the system was up and doing other stuff the TU58 was quite poor. I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt. > (read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow > the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send > a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to > overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. > may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all > that fast and OS overhead can make that longer. Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 baud serial line I'd think. > Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of > the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a 286. The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun. > rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between. > If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at > 38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over 9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to make its way to disk. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA24275 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 05:19:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

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Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of <course.) Maybe real Unix but I've deleted ultrix in favor of VMS! Maybe NetBSD will sort out some of the problems. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00867 for pups-liszt; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:24:06 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Erin Corliss <erin(a)corliss.com> Mon Jan 5 15:23:23 1998 Received: from mb1.mailbank.com (mb1.mailbank.com [204.244.193.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA00862 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:23:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from p91.t0.rio.com [206.96.130.191] (HELO corliss.com) by mb1.mailbank.com (AltaVista Mail V2.0H/2.0H BL25H listener) id 0000_00a4_34b0_6e49_a57f; Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:23:21 -0800 Message-ID: <34B06E4B.20CDBAA(a)corliss.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:23:23 -0800 From: Erin Corliss <erin(a)corliss.com> Reply-To: erin(a)corliss.com Organization: GTA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hello. I have a free operating system directory at: http://rio.com/~zomad I have a link to the PUPS home page for PDP-11 Unix & was wondering if you can add a link to my page. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18889 for pups-liszt; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jan 30 14:40:50 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18884 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA04976 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:50 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199801300440.PAA04976(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:50 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Last year I mentioned the idea of installing PDP-11 UNIX over a serial line, for those people who have real PDP-11s but no tape drives. I've written the code to do this over the past few days, and its time to pass it to someone who actually has a PDP-11 and no tape drive! The code is of course alpha-quality, but I'm using a PC running John Wilson's Ersatz to install 7th Edition on a simulated RK05 right now. I need someone who has a: + PDP-11 which _will_ run 7th Edition + Spare RK05, RP03, RP04, RP05 or RP06 disk + A DL/KL-11 serial port at vector 0176500 (i.e 2nd unit) + An RS-232 null modem with hardware handshaking lines + A machine running a 32-bit Unix to host the other end of the serial connection + Spare time, and a tendency for masochism :-) Someone who also has a PDP-11 running v7, and a source license would be a bonus, as they might be able to help with the debugging. I'm at the point where I can bring in the `boot' file (record 0) off the simulated UNIX install tape, load and run cat, mkfs, icheck and restor. I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block''), which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from restor. My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill the 10,240 request, but still problems. Once the code is solid, I'd like to add other disks (RL02s etc.), and write a user-mode program to read from the tape once UNIX has booted off disk. This will allow other tape formats (e.g tar) to be read in. If anybody would be willing to participate in getting this stuff to work well, could they e-mail me next week?! Thanks in advance, Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA20201 for pups-liszt; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:46:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 5 months

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Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus <that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent <user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11. The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday. Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26050 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:20:17 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> Tue Dec 9 12:21:45 1997 Received: from rio.com (rio.com [206.96.130.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26045 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:20:08 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (zomad@localhost) by rio.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA14664; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:21:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:21:45 -0800 (PST) From: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <199712090117.AA23476(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208182054.13496A-100000(a)rio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus > <that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent > <user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11. > > The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday. > Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s. Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of course.) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26200 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:33:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 5 months

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Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Does the DL11 port have an interrupt that is driven when data is <received, or do processes have to constantly poll it to receive data? Yes or you can poll. <Is the information stored on a PDP-11 disk in 8 or 9 bit words? How <many bits per word are transmitted/received by the DL11? Disks are 8bit (2 8bit, 1 word = 16bits) and the DL can be set to send 7 or 8 bits and with or with out parity. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA15000 for pups-liszt; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:40:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Sat Dec 6 02:40:07 1997 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA14993 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:40:26 +1100 (EST) Received: (from neil@localhost) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA05287; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:40:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:40:07 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Message-Id: <199712051640.KAA05287(a)skatter.USask.Ca> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, zomad(a)rio.com Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5 Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA15046 for pups-liszt; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:54:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Dec 6 02:53:53 1997 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA15041 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:54:09 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA01585; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9712051653.AA01585(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a > tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I > actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once. > > The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The > other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by > commands sent over the serial line. > [Protocol description] > Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding > commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.? Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port. Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example, ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu… Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19692 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Dec 7 14:15:41 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19687 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:34 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06858; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199712070415.PAA06858(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST) Cc: erin(a)corliss.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 5, 97 08:51:33 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Robin Birch: > This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if > something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an > additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line > once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as > a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc > access it has a couple of good thigs to it: I was thinking of simulating a disk, as then we could manipulate the disk image using an emulator on the PC end, and still use it on the PDP-11 end. I've made some changes to the suggestions I emailed, and if I get some time just after Xmas, I'll try to get something working under v6. Then I can port it up to v7 and 2BSD. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19707 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Dec 7 14:17:16 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19702 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:15 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06883; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199712070417.PAA06883(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5 To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, zomad(a)rio.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199712051640.KAA05287(a)skatter.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Dec 5, 97 10:40:07 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Neil Johnson: > It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives > and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better > choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though. Given how close v6 and v6 were, backporting the RL driver to v5 shouldn't present too many problems. I hope :-) Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19719 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Dec 7 14:18:42 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19714 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:28 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06903; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199712070418.PAA06903(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd) To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <9712051653.AA01585(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 5, 97 08:53:53 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used > to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port. > Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already > being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could > be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers > already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example, > > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu… > > Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. I'll pull that file and have a look. Thanks Tim, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA19870 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:17:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Dec 7 15:17:23 1997 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA19865 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:17:27 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA22184; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9712070517.AA22184(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could > hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the bootstraps. Later Unibus processors (11/24, 11/44) often had TU58 bootstrap PROMs to boot diagnostics from TU58. The TU58 drivers aren't as simple as RK05 drivers (is anything as simple as a RK05 driver?) but they are comparable with, say, RL01/02 and RX02 drivers. One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58 protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to allow anyone to do that to themselves :-) Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA21405 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:19:06 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Mon Dec 8 03:18:36 1997 Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (ppp6.york.ac.uk [144.32.4.106]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA21400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:18:57 +1100 (EST) Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id RAA01057; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:18:47 GMT From: "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-Id: <9712071718.ZM1055(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:18:36 +0000 Reply-To: pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Dec 6, 21:17, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > bootstraps. Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't, and according to my microPDP-11 Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too old to include 11/53 and 11/93). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA21591 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:05:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Dec 8 04:05:23 1997 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA21582 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:05:29 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA01939; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:05:24 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9712071805.AA01939(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:05:23 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > > bootstraps. > > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or a KDJ11B (quad-height, boot ROMs on the CPU board)? If you have a KDJ11A, then your boot ROM resides in a MXV11, a BDV11, or elsewhere (possibly a third-party controller) in your system. (You'll notice that I said "11/73B" in my above message, because the KDJ11A has no boot ROMs at all...) My KDJ11B has the following built in bootstraps (listed through "Setup" in the boot menu or with a "Boot" followed by a "?"): DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02 DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01 DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02 DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58 DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05 MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81 MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05 XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11 NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F If your KDJ11B doesn't allow you to see the above list, then the boot menu has been disabled and it has been set to only auto-boot. I can tell you how to reconfigure to get at the boot menu. > and according to my microPDP-11 > Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only > tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too > old to include 11/53 and 11/93). Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). The downside, of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time! I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm extolling the TU58 as a perfect wonderful device. There are lots of reasons to *not* use them. My point was mainly that the RSP (radial serial protocol) used to speak to them is well-defined and already exists; there's no use in re-inventing the wheel. Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21994 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:11:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Mon Dec 8 07:10:43 1997 Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (ppp5.york.ac.uk [144.32.4.105]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA21989 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:10:59 +1100 (EST) Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id VAA01507; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:10:53 GMT From: "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-Id: <9712072110.ZM1505(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:10:43 +0000 In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> "Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal" (Dec 7, 10:05) References: <9712071805.AA01939(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Reply-To: pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Dec 7, 10:05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > > > bootstraps. > > > > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't > Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-) My point was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs. I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs) because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems. > Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system > to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). Indeed, but we both know that DD means tape :-) > The downside, > of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time! But still better than some systems. (Fond memories of TU56's on a PDP8, and not-so-fond memories of friends' Commodore disks, which seemed slower even than that). And as Tim points out, RSP is well-defined, tried, and tested. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22424 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:15:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Dec 8 10:14:41 1997 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA22416 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:14:57 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA24774; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:41 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9712080014.AA24774(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:41 -0800 (PST) Cc: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not > relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-) > My point > was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs. > > I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs) > because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a > maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems. OK, then, I *think* the most complete official summary of hardware bootstraps is Micronote #15, something that every Q-bus maintenance engineer ought to have readily available... If our esteemed list-owner will allow me to post an excerpt from it: *begin excerpt* +============+======================================================+ | | | | BOOT | DESCRIPTION | | DEVICE | | | | | +============+======================================================+ | BDV11 | Bus Terminator, Bootstrap & Diagnostic ROM | | | used primarily with older LSI-11 configurations | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | MXV11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-A board | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | MXV11-B2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-BF & MRV11-D | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BA | Bootstrap ROM on board PDP-11/23+ systems | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BE | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/23 systems | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BF | New Bootstrap ROM for PDP-11/23+ and MicroPDP-11/23 | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KXT11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KXT11-A5 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon-Plus | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDJ11-B | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/73 CPU | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | uVAX I | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroVAX I CPU | +============+======================================================+ Page 2 BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | DEVICE | BDV11 | MXV11-A2 | MXV11-B2 | KDF11-BA | KDF11-BE | | | | | | | | | | Rev A | |see Note 2| part no | part no. | | | | | | 23-339E2| 23-157E4| | |see Note 1| | | 23-340E2| 23-158E4| +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | RX01 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX02 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TU58 |see Note 1| X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RL01/2 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-C | | X | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-D | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RK05 | X | X | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX50 | | | X | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD51 | | | X | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD52 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TSV05 | | | X | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TK25 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RC25 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DEQNA | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-E | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-F | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DUV11 | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DPV11 | | | X | | | +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ Page 3 BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | DEVICE | KDF11-BF | KXT11-A2 | KXT11-A5 | KDJ11-B | uVAX I | | | | | | | | | | part no | | |available |available | | | 23-183E4| | | on CPU | on CPU | | | 23-184E4| | |board only|board only| +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | RX01 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX02 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TU58 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RL01/2 | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-C | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-D | | | | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RK05 | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX50 | X | | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD51 | X | | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD52 | X | | | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TSV05 | X | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TK25 | X | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RC25 | X | | |See note 3|See note 3| +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DEQNA | X | | | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-E | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-F | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DUV11 | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DPV11 | | | | | | +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ Page 4 NOTES: ------ (1) The information in the BDV11 column refers to the Rev A chips. There were also Rev O chips and an additional TU58 chip that can be added to the board: Rev O: Part numbers 23-010E2, 23-011E2 Does NOT support: DLV11-F, RX02 as bootable devices TU58 ROM: Part number 23-126F3 Inserted into socket XE40. Other ROM must be Rev A. Allows use of the TU58 DECtape II as a bootable device. *end excerpt* It looks to me like the only devices with more complete than TU58 hardware bootstrap support in the Q-bus world are RX01 and RX02... and RX02 is already supported for the standalone utilities in BSD2.11, thanks to the efforts of someone who will here go nameless :-) Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24287 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:01:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> Tue Dec 9 01:03:34 1997 Received: from rio.com (rio.com [206.96.130.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24282 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:01:43 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (zomad@localhost) by rio.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA29933 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) From: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <9712070517.AA22184(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208064741.29193B-100000(a)rio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58 > protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is > flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to > allow anyone to do that to themselves :-) Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as kind of a freak show act.... Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA24704 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:46:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net> Tue Dec 9 03:35:02 1997 Received: from bsdserver.tek-star.net ([206.29.81.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA24699 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:46:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (dseagrav@localhost) by bsdserver.tek-star.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09165; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:35:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:35:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net> To: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208064741.29193B-100000(a)rio.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971208113224.9085A-100000(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Erin Corliss wrote: > Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put > PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to > do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What > I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I > was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web > page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as > kind of a freak show act.... Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show! I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it... (Speaking of which: Anyone want an IBM S/34 in running condition with software? [Loads of 8" floppies]) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25478 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:17:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> Tue Dec 9 08:19:01 1997 Received: from rio.com (rio.com [206.96.130.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25473 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:17:11 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (zomad@localhost) by rio.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28217; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) From: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971208113224.9085A-100000(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208135352.26457B-100000(a)rio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show! Well, personally I think it's the *realness* of the thing that sells tickets to freak shows. You can paint all the pictures of two headed babies you want, but the guy who has a living one in a jar is the one who draws the crowd. 8^) > I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in > racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it... I'm not going to argue for PC's. My roommate & I have about 20 of them lying around and we've been working furiously lately to consolidate them into one big rackmounted, networked Linux system. In fact one of the projects that's been slowly moving toward the front of my mind is to modify the forking and piping system in Linux so that the OS can dynamically allocate networked motherboards when it needs to run new tasks... Like if you run two tasks from the console it will run one on the local machine and pick a remote machine on the network to run the next one, then pipe the output from both of them back to the console so they both appear to have been run on the local machine. It wouldn't increase the "BogoMips" but it would be nice for graphics rendering, inexpensive multiuser systems, or anything else that needs or can use multiple processes. But I digress. Yes, PC's are built like a psychotic dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25634 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:18:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Dec 9 09:16:11 1997 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA25629 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:18:52 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA10544; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9712082316.AA10544(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: zomad(a)rio.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208064741.29193B-100000(a)rio.com> from "Erin Corliss" at Dec 8, 97 07:03:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put > PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to > do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What > I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I > was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web > page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as > kind of a freak show act.... Well, if you just want a minimal system that can play simple games through the console port, you don't need any of the Unices. RT-11 is perfectly servicable and will boot from floppy or TU58 quite nicely; it's even possible to have a working TCP/IP implementation on a 11/03 this way. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25904 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:17:18 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 5 months

1
0
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PDP-11, VAX, etc. hardware in Italy or near

by S. Sigala

Hi, I'm interested in buying old hardware like PDP-11, VAX, Sun, etc., if possible near Italy (or in E.U.). Can someone subscribed to this list suggest me [someone|a company|a university] that sells this type of hardware, please? Regards, Sandro Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15858 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:00:59 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Oct 10 09:00:59 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15853 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:00:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02541 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:00:59 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199710092300.JAA02541(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 Xenix To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:00:59 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-11 Xenix? Warren ----- Forwarded message from Frank Wortner ----- From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net> To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Request to Join PUPS I've sent off email to a friend of mine who preserved some materials from a now-defunct software company we used to work for. He *might* have that tape. I regret not keeping track of it, but fifteen years have elapsed since I last booted it. Too bad. PDP-11 Xenix had a number of nice features. o It was based on the Seventh Edition. o It ran on everything from a PDP-11/23 on up. o It could simulate split instruction and data space on non I&D machines. (*) o It had a complete shutdown procedure (an elaborate /etc/shutdown script) o The kernel was delivered as an archive library (".a" file), so you could reconfigure without source. Perhaps someone at SCO (or Microsoft) may still have a tape of it. Most software firms archive their products in secure vaults, so it might still exist in some warehouse. (*) The scheme involved paging the instructions while the data remained resident. The first 8K of the program was always resident and contained a jump table and supporting software. The next 8K held whatever instructions were executing at the time, while the remaining 48K was reserved for the data and stack segments. Building a simulated I&D executable required the user to link once as a pure executable, once as a split executable, and finally running both executables through a program which built the final simulated split I&D executable. The compiler had an option ('-j' if I recall correctly) that performed these three links automatically. Sorry for the rambling note, but I'm just a bit overwhelmed by nostalgia. ;-) Frank ----- End of forwarded message from Frank Wortner ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16074 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:58:50 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net> Fri Oct 10 10:58:40 1997 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:58:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA27221; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13113; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:58:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:58:40 -0400 From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199710100058.AA13113(a)world.std.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk <I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-1 <Xenix? < < Warren Well yes, sorta. It's on the net, John Wilson has it on ftp.dbit.com. The however is it's for the PRO350/380 systems. I don't know if it can be moved to more standard PDP-11 configurations. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA16364 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:20:26 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Oct 10 13:20:01 1997 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.100]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16359 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:20:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip6.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.56]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14086; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:19:57 -0700 Message-ID: <343D9EE1.1E1F32E4(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 20:20:01 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix References: <199710100058.AA13113(a)world.std.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9AECC2A19114B8324D6E2D6A" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9AECC2A19114B8324D6E2D6A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO collected everything else.) There is, however, VENIX (no commercial relation to XENIX other than a common parent) on ftp.update.uu.se. This version of XENIX is for the DEC Pro350/380, which is, essentially, a PDP-11. There was also a VENIX for "real" PDP-11s. Dave Allison J Parent wrote: > > <I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-1 > <Xenix? > < > < Warren > > Well yes, sorta. It's on the net, John Wilson has it on ftp.dbit.com. The > however is it's for the PRO350/380 systems. I don't know if it can be moved > to more standard PDP-11 configurations. > > Allison --------------9AECC2A19114B8324D6E2D6A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for David C. Jenner Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: David C. Jenner n: Jenner;David C. adr: 3153 N.E. 84th Street;;;Seattle;WA;98115-4717;USA email;internet: djenner(a)halcyon.com tel;fax: 206-527-2019 tel;home: 206-527-2018 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------9AECC2A19114B8324D6E2D6A-- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16464 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:12:58 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 6 months

1
1
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Re: PDP-11 Xenix

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Dave, <I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is <anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It <was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO <collected everything else.) Your right, drain beth, err brain death. Sometimes all those *nixs are the same to me. Especially after configuring three vaxen for VMS and installing it. I know heresy but, Netbsd has proven uninstallable here on all four systems. <DEC Pro350/380, which is, essentially, a PDP-11. There was also a VENIX <for "real" PDP-11s. Well venix on the pro350 runs far better than POS! In fact it's the only *nix running here as even slackware has had problems (bad CD!). That however is news! Is there a version of venix for "real" PDP-11s? on the net? Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16515 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:46:48 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Oct 10 14:46:33 1997 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16510 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:46:43 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA22633; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:16:33 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971010141633.30732(a)lemis.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:16:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> Cc: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix References: <199710100412.AA13660(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710100412.AA13660(a)world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Fri, Oct 10, 1997 at 12:12:45AM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Oct 10, 1997 at 12:12:45AM -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: > Dave, > > <I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is > <anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It > <was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO > <collected everything else.) I thought SCO developed XENIX right from the word go, only in those days they belonged to Microsoft. > Your right, drain beth, err brain death. Sometimes all those *nixs are the > same to me. Especially after configuring three vaxen for VMS and installing > it. I know heresy but, Netbsd has proven uninstallable here on all four > systems. Interesting. What was the problem? Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17679 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:02:58 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net> Sat Oct 11 00:57:18 1997 Received: from mail1w-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17674 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:02:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from seeker.prodigy.com (seeker.prodigy.com [199.4.137.72]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA81722 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:57:23 -0400 From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net> To: "PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix (LONG) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:57:18 -0400 Message-ID: <01bcd58c$ce268560$488904c7(a)seeker.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Since I'm the one that started this --- albeit indirectly --- let me try to explain. Way back when --- about 1981 or 82 --- I worked for a small (now defunct) software company. We owned 2 PDP-11/23s. Initially, we ran a distribution of the Sixth Edition on them. That came from a company in New York --- that's where I am geographically, BTW --- called Yourdon. The system was called UV6. After a while, we decided to upgrade to V7. At the time, we had begun a relationship with another (now defunct) firm called Lifeboat Associates (also in New York, later in Tarrytown, NY). They distributed microcomputer software, principally CP/M-based. They were a Microsoft distributor. Microsoft had just started Unix development at the time. Lifeboat sold us a V7 system: Microsoft PDP-11 Xenix. I know it was Microsoft because the tape lables said so, and I remember that the line printer printed release notes contained a banner page that indicated that they came from Microsoft's DEC 20(!) (cheerfully named "Microsoft Heating Plant"). PD.-11 Xenix was essentially V7, but it had a few added features. Processor support included all models of PDP-11 with MMUs: 23s, 34s, 40s, 45s, 55s, 60s, and 70s. It had split I&D space emulation --- borrowed, I believe from 2.something BSD. That emulation required a grand total of three(!) link passes, but the compiler driver was modified to do this automatically if you specified the "-j" option. Instead of source, the kernel was delivered mostly as .o files and .a libraries, so you could reconfigure the OS without source. The reconfigure programs just spat out some assembly language and C "glue" that you compiled and linked with the .o and .a files. In fact, this was pretty much automated. The system also had a rather extensive /etc./shutdown shell script which calmly and thoroughly brought the system to a quiescent state and could optionally reboot or halt it. Although the OS was pretty big --- I find it amazing that I thought of it as "big" ;-) --- you could, with some effort build a boot floppy on a RX02 diskette. That could run exactly 1 (one) process --- the RX02 system had *no* swap space. I remember system recovery sessions in which I constantly had to boot the floppy, see the shell prompt, and then "exec fsck" and watch as fsck finished its run, and init respawned the shell! Anyhow, I know I *used to have* the release notes and I *might* have had the tape, but both, sadly, are probably lost. I was wondering if anyone else might have seen or, even better, still has a tape of this rare version of V7. Perhaps there's an archive at Microsoft or SCO that harbors a tape. Most software firms do have some sort of policy about placing products in escrow with a third party. Maybe this still exists. If not, that's OK. If SCO is kind enough to allow source licensing to individuals for noncommercial use, then this largely becomes a moot issue. Full source V7 (or even better 2BSD) is probably a more "interesting" system from a hobbyist or preservationist point of view, particularly if you're like me and don't have or care to own actual PDP-11 hardware. I'm quite happy to run John Wilson's and Bob Supnick's wonderful emulator programs with whatever software I can obtain. They let me have the PDP-11 models I worked on (23, 34, 45) as well as those I'd like to have had (70) without the hassle and expense of maintaining the actual hardware. BTW, if John or Bob reads this list, l'd like to say "Thank you" to both of them. Also thanks to Warren for his work preserving the old Unix software. It's a great deal of fun to see old "friends" again, and I think it will be just as much fun to see software and "hardware" combinations that I didn't have access to in the "good old days." Thanks also to SCO for binary licenses for these "historic" systems; I hope that they will be able to license source code in the near future. Sorry for the long ramble and thanks for reading! Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA17931 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:15:43 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Oct 11 02:55:45 1997 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA17926 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:15:37 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20665; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:55:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199710101655.JAA20665(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: fwortner(a)prodigy.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix (LONG) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Howdy - > From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net> > Since I'm the one that started this --- albeit indirectly --- let me try to And I hate to see a fellow talk to himself without interruption ;-) > PD.-11 Xenix was essentially V7, but it had a few added features. > Processor support included all models of PDP-11 with MMUs: 23s, 34s, 40s, I remember (not terribly fondly) running V7 on an 11/23. We hacked in an overlay scheme to the kernel (but not user programs). Just enough resources to run 1 user and a couple processes - do an "ls" and the shell got swapped out, when 'ls' finished the shell would get swapped back in. Wheee! ;) > 45s, 55s, 60s, and 70s. It had split I&D space emulation --- borrowed, I > believe from 2.something BSD. That emulation required a grand total of Not having used Xenix I'd never heard the term "split I&D space emulation". What we hacked in to V7 and BSD later implemented was an even older concept: overlays. 2.9 was the first version I know of that had 'overlay' support. The overlays were memory resident and switching between them was done by flipping MMU registers. It is (present tense since 2.11BSD uses the same method today) done with a single link phase (no "-j" option or multiple link edits). In 2.9 there was a limit of 7 overlay segments plus the base segment. Later on (the 1985 update to 2.9) the limit was increased to 15 overlays which has proven to be adequate since then. For the kernel the overlays could only be 8kb (1 page register) but user mode programs could have larger (but still multiple of 8kb) overlays. In 2.9 there was a separate libc.a that you did need to link with because the callframe had an extra word (the overlay number) and 'csv, cret' had a couple extra instructions to switch overlays. Later (2.10 and up) the callframe was changed to always have the extra word This made life easier (at the expense of an extra 3microseconds per function call) by not having to maintain/build two versions of all the libraries. > three(!) link passes, but the compiler driver was modified to do this > automatically if you specified the "-j" option. Instead of source, the > kernel was delivered mostly as .o files and .a libraries, so you could A multiphase link IS currently used to build the 2.11 networking though. The networking code (4.3BSD's TCP/IP stack) runs in supervisor mode. The kernel, at boot time, loads /netnix into supervisor space. The /netnix image is built in a similar manner to what was mentioned for Xenix's emulated I&D space - first build the unix image (with undefined references to the networking code), then build the netnix image (with undefined references to the kernel code), then cross reference the two images for undefineds and create .s stub files to satisfy the undefineds. Assemble the two .s files and then link unix with d.netnix.o and netnix with d.unix.o and voila a kernel and an image it can load into supervisor space. > reboot or halt it. Although the OS was pretty big --- I find it amazing > that I thought of it as "big" ;-) --- you could, with some effort build a Even V7 had trouble fitting on a non split I/D machine. The problem is that the kernel has to map the I/O page which removes an extra MMU page from being used for data. Then the 'u' area needs a page (for the kernel stack and per process context). And you need a page to perform copyin/copyout with (and to map the buffer cache if that has been moved external to the kernel) - that leaves only 40kb for everything else (and on a nonsplit I/D machine with overlays you'd need two or three pages for the base segment and an overlay, that leaves just 2 pages or 16kb for all the data). > Full source V7 (or even better 2BSD) is probably a more "interesting" system > from a hobbyist or preservationist point of view, particularly if you're > like me and don't have or care to own actual PDP-11 hardware. I'm quite An 11/73 takes up less space than some PC tower cases and uses about the same amount of electricity. > happy to run John Wilson's and Bob Supnick's wonderful emulator programs > with whatever software I can obtain. They let me have the PDP-11 models I I can't speak for John's emulator (only runs on top of DOS and my place is a MS-free zone ;)) but I have booted up 2.11BSD under Bob's. Only went to the single user state and ran a couple simple commands. Seems to work ok that far, but 'vi' doesn't run right - I suspect it's something to do with overlaid programs flipping MMU registers about but haven't had the time to look into it further (besides which I've a 11/73 and a 11/93 to use). > worked on (23, 34, 45) as well as those I'd like to have had (70) without > the hassle and expense of maintaining the actual hardware. A Q-bus system such as an 11/83 combines the best of both worlds - it's got the address space and the speed (cpuwise) of a 70 but the convenience of no UNIBUS map (like the 45). Maintenance thus far over the last 6 years has consisted of replacing an M8192 when the cache developed a parity error. Well, I suppose I should get back to work before the boss wanders by and sees me having fun instead of getting his work done ;-) Steven Schultz

27 years, 7 months

2
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Re: PDP-11 Xenix (LONG)

by David C. Jenner

OK, Frank is likely correct. But I still don't think you'll find it anywhere on the 'net! It would be nice if it were in the PUP archives, though. Getting it there might be hard because MS might still have some rights to it. I did some digging, and here are some relevant dates: 8/25/80 Microsoft announced DEC PDP-11 XENIX (along with versions for several other machines--Intel 8086, Zilog Z8000, and Motorola M68000). [This would have to be Version 7 based.] 10/01/80 Microsoft notes PDP-11 XENIX is "scheduled for release". [It's not clear if this means it was actually released on that date.] 12/08/81 Microsoft and SCO signed a letter of intent for SCO to be a second- source of XENIX. [No mention of PDP-11; just that XENIX was being upgraded to System III at that time.] 1/22/85 Microsoft and AT&T announce plans for compatible future releases of XENIX and UNIX [based on System V]. 1/31/86 Microsoft and SCO announce new agreements for SCO to be prime distrubutor of XENIX System V to VAR and VAD channels. 2/15/89 Microsoft makes 20% minority investment in SCO. [I seem to recall that SCO got (all?) XENIX rights at this time.] So it looks like there was a window of about a year when a Version 7 based XENIX was probably available. Certainly starting in 1983 Microsoft announced all sorts of versions of XENIX for other hardware, including IBM System 9000 (yes, there really was a HAL 9000 (Motorola MC68000-based)--I had a couple), IBM PC/AT, AT&T UNIX PC and PC 6300, and Compaq machines. Dave Frank Wortner wrote: > > Since I'm the one that started this --- albeit indirectly --- let me try to > explain. > > Way back when --- about 1981 or 82 --- I worked for a small (now defunct) > software company. We owned 2 PDP-11/23s. Initially, we ran a distribution > of the Sixth Edition on them. That came from a company in New York --- > that's where I am geographically, BTW --- called Yourdon. The system was > called UV6. > > After a while, we decided to upgrade to V7. At the time, we had begun a > relationship with another (now defunct) firm called Lifeboat Associates > (also in New York, later in Tarrytown, NY). They distributed microcomputer > software, principally CP/M-based. They were a Microsoft distributor. > Microsoft had just started Unix development at the time. Lifeboat sold us a > V7 system: Microsoft PDP-11 Xenix. I know it was Microsoft because the > tape lables said so, and I remember that the line printer printed release > notes contained a banner page that indicated that they came from Microsoft's > DEC 20(!) (cheerfully named "Microsoft Heating Plant"). > > PD.-11 Xenix was essentially V7, but it had a few added features. snip > BTW, if John or Bob reads this list, l'd like to say "Thank you" to both > of them. Also thanks to Warren for his work preserving the old Unix > software. It's a great deal of fun to see old "friends" again, and I think > it will be just as much fun to see software and "hardware" combinations that > I didn't have access to in the "good old days." Thanks also to SCO for > binary licenses for these "historic" systems; I hope that they will be able > to license source code in the near future. > > Sorry for the long ramble and thanks for reading! > > Frank

27 years, 7 months

1
0
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Kserve, TU11 Emulator, upload?

by Warren Toomey

All, Given that some of you have found KSERVE, the TU11 emulator code, and other bootstrap bits & pieces, would it be possible for you for ftp upload them to one of my machines so I can add them into the PUPS archive? Address is minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, ftp in as anonymous, you will find /incoming world-writable (for a few days anyway!). A README.XXX would also be helpful! Thanks again, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19408 for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:14:47 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 17 13:14:48 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19403 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:14:43 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01259 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:14:48 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199709170314.NAA01259(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Also, PDP-11 URLs To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:14:48 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Also, while I'm thinking, email in your hotlist of PDP-11 related URLs, both http:// and ftp:// sites. I just went to look for KSERVE myself and haven't found it yet. Having a set of URLs to try would be nice! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19885 for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:51:35 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 17 14:51:36 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19880 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:51:31 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01580 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:51:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199709170451.OAA01580(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Updated PUPS ftp & web areas To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:51:36 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I've got both the TU58 emulator and KSERVE, and placed them along with the PDP-11 emulators and the tools I have for extracting files from old tapes/disk images at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11 The PUPS web pages have also been rearranged, with details of how to set up 6th and 7th Edition UNIX and also 2.11BSD. Web page at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ Warren

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Re: Setup Instructions for 2.11BSD

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Btw. my M70 has two monitors: What is a M70? PDP11/70 or ? < SBC M70-V3.0 < <DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT < <M70> That is some form of boot rom and those are the devices you can boot. <173244 <@ < <Is the second a debugger? That is ODT, crude debugger. For many PDP-11s it serves as a microcode console as in the 11/03 and 11/23 series Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14217 for pups-liszt; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:07:18 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

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Setup Instructions for 2.11BSD

by Warren Toomey

[ The following email came from Steven Schultz, but didn't make it into the PUPS mail list as it was too big! I've extracted the included PostScript file and put it on the PUPS web page. Warren ] Greetings - > = "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> > occurred to me as I drool in anticipation over the possibility of > running 2.11BSD on an 11/73! It is a lot of fun - well worth drooling over ;-) > Maybe you or a 2.11BSD expert (Steve Schultz?) could find the "release You rang? ;) > notes" for 2.11BSD and post them, if that's legal now. That would Hmmm, the Install/Setup docs have the old style BSD copyright notice on them ("subject to the terms of your BSD license") rather than the later "do what you want but leave our credits present". I suppose it wouldn't be too risky to post the formatted documentation (rather than the raw nroff source). It is quite large (I hope Postscript is acceptable to everyone) but gzip'd it should be of reasonable size. [ It's now at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/2bsdsetup.ps.gz - Warren ] > It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't > help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a > CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to > have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard > distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that > possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system For quite a while it didn't occur to me what all the fuss was about. I assumed that folks would do what I do - put the CD into a BSD/OS|FreeBSD|Linux|usw box and write the images out to a 4mm or 9-track and then cable the tape drive up to the PDP-11 and proceed. It finally dawned on me that most folks won't have invested in a Qbus SCSI adaptor (it's really a VERY handy thing to have, makes possible sharing of tape drives, using inexpensive new disks instead of old slow RD5{3,4} drives, etc). For _some_ folks (those a bit more "serious") getting a SCSI adaptor would be a "good thing". They're cheaper now than they used to be (I about choked when a new Emulex UC08 was $1500 - and that's with a 30% discount - but went ahead with it back in 1991 and have never regretted it). A used UC08 (or similar CMD product) is from what I have seen about $900 today. A TAPE ONLY CMD adaptor is "just" $300 - that's not too bad, is it? Since in many cases the systems have been obtained free (or cheaply) as they were being tossed out and it is beginning to look like the software will be almost free ($100 or so isn't a whole lot of money) perhaps investing some money into the hobby in the form of a SCSI adaptor would be a wise choice (at least for some folks). Everything can't be free all the time, can it? DEC used to make a SCSI adaptor (RQZX1) and a TZ30 (SCSI variant of the TK50) but I have no idea how available those are on the used parts market these days. Other folks I would hope could find a Vax (or similar) system around with a TK50 or whatever and perhaps write the images to tape that way. You don't want floppies ;) RX50 floppy media is expensive and only holds 800kb per diskette (not to mention that RX50 drives are flakey). RX33s can get 1.2mb per disk but the Teac model of 5.25" drive that can be adapted to the RQDX3 controller is getting _scare_ and newer models (from what I understand) can not be adapted for use with RQDX3 controller. I suppose a person could get an RX23 or RX26 from DEC but heaven knows what that would cost. Besides which a complete 2.11 kit would take somewhere between 80 and 100 floppies (depending on how full each one could be packed). TK25s are another possibility but I don't know how many folks have (or want) one of those - they're rather awkward physically and while they use DC600A tapes aren't interchangeable with any other system. 9-track tape was the traditional distribution mechanism for 2BSD up until 2.10.1BSD at which time TK50s (TMSCP) support was added. The kit was 2 tapes at 1600bpi but the system has grown enough that a 3rd tape might be required today. At 6250bpi everything fits quite nicely on a single tape (might be a bit tight at 3200bpi though). Attached below is the Setup/Installation document from 2.11BSD (last revised in June 1995). It is a gzip'd postscript file uuencoded for safe transit thru the mail. [ It's now at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/2bsdsetup.ps.gz - Warren ] Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA12969 for pups-liszt; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:20:29 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. T Boots for this list were found in the RT11 pocket guide, the longest was 31words. Most about 20. rx01 rx02 tm11 tju16 rp02/3 rjs03/4 rk11 rf11 dectape(tu60) dectapeII(tu58) RL01/2 Rk06 <first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instruct <(28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader' The tu58 is also short and can load any program with code in block 0 (default boot block). the tu58 can also simulate a console driving ODT. The best part if TU58 is serial interface and can be hooked up to any unix/linux/dos/cpm/Whatever box that has a serial port. <On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies. <The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3 <bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pre <good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems. the above describes a strategy. Well, transparent or system based the blocks are allocated. CP/M does not do block replacement but utilities can mark bad blocks by allocating them, or revector them at the hardware level. I believe mkfs does this. Some disks like the RQDXn do this at the hardware level. Allison

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Ok, there is a Wilson emulator: E11 which (apparently) runs on DOS <boxen. Have it but, the point is to run it on a hardware -11 afterall, I have one. <KSERVE is the name, as a previous poster has pointed out (thanx). Went and got it, now I have to transfer it and asm it. <If the image is on another machine, then use KERMIT + KSERVE. < <If not, I guess COPY /DEVICE FOO.IMG DL2: Bingo. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11264 for pups-liszt; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:20:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by johnh＠psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au

There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. The first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instructions (28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader' which will load formatted data (paper tape!). The format is trival and has checksums and stop/transfer blocks. The trick is to convert the unix secordary boot loader from V7 or BSD 2.9-2.11 and then you have mini loader with lots of device drivers. I can provide some of these programs including the paper tape listings and images (heck, I still have a working paper tape reader/punch). You can load ANY PDP-11 this way! Another approach if you have any of the LSI-11 based cpus with microcoded console emulator is to use the Xinu suite. It does an initial bootstrap by sending console commands and then loading a binary boostrap. On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies. The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3 bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pretty good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems. Files-11 (IAS/RSX) was the only system to offer bad block replacement (I cannot be sure for RSTS). When bigger disk drives started showing up, like the RM02/3's and RM05, the usual practive was to buy packs with 'zero' defects. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11254 for pups-liszt; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:20:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

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Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?

by pnt103＠ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk

Re Heriot-Watt stripped-down 7th Edition... Warren wrote: > Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files > off those RL02s? I did once attempt to read the tape on our department's Kenedy drive (now disposed of) and managed to get all but a few blocks near the beginning. It seems to be a pretty standard distribution tape, with a layout as described in the Unix Programmer's Manual Vol.2 (Jan.1979). I have a 1600bpi copy (modulo the bad blocks) somewhere (I wonder where I put it?). I wouldn't bother about making another copy; if anyone deparately wants to try, I guess I might loan the original. But AFAIK there's only a couple of Makefiles that differ, and I have those on the RL02s. I don't have any version of kermit that will run under 7th Edition on an 11/23 (the normal versions are too big), but text files are perfectly easy to copy. Pete Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07850 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:24:44 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> <Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along <with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for <its rise to fame. Th paraphrase Lions, It's one we can look at the dirty parts of and the good ones too. Yes it has warts and we can see them for what they are, engineering compromizes of the time. <If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the <DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the <90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.) It begs the question of what is required and what si nice to have? <What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to <operating systems in the last twenty years. :-) Yes. Very unfortunate too. Good design is far more rare. <(Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend <that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose <of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix <nowadays...) Somehow I find that to be the central point. I apply the same rule to CP/M for z80s. Fully thing there is a groups doing an embedded linux kernal (ELKS) and they act like doing it on a 16bit machine is majik and something like a z80 means far to stripped to be of use. Seems they missed the point. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA08249 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:00:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim <I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I <ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours, <but it worked. How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02 assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media? Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA06695 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:02:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:01:55 1997 Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (root(a)Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA06690 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:02:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29097; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:01:58 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA00514; Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:01:57 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:01:55 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.874177315.bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk >In article by pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk: >> Warren wrote: >> > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions >> > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition', >> >> If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is >> running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was >> build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space, >> such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There >> are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these >> are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a >> makefile to configure and build for a small machine. >> >> It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff >> is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is >> modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'. >> >> I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and >> also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised. >> >> Pete > >Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files >off those RL02s? If the need is large enough, I can roll out a TU77 and connect it to Magica to read the stuff. That means Sweden, though... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA06768 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:10:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:09:43 1997 Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (root(a)Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA06761 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:10:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29118; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:09:44 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA00629; Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:09:44 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:09:43 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:43:28 -0400 Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.874177783.bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk >Not true. They all did as bad blocks have been a fact of life for all >computers since day one. Some of the ealy unixes used crude methods >from a perfomance standoint but, the bad block replacement was there. Well, not day one, but that come pretty early. Quality of the magnetic media wasn't really that good back then, so you usually *had* to expect a few bad spots on any disk. On PDP-11's, I would supect that Unix went with DEC's BAD144 standard pretty fast. (When did that standard come, btw?) >Do read LIONS commentary. I was able to get a copy from the local library >here in eastern MA (USA) along with several books on BSD design. Unix was >really ahead of the pack on many things. Not to be a pain in the ass or so, but in what ways was Unix ahead of anything? Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporary operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (and still are...) Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA06799 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:23:01 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:22:21 1997 Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA06794 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:22:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29143; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:22:21 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA01024; Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:22:21 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:22:21 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:26:17 -0400 Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.874178541.bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ><For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim ><I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I ><ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours, ><but it worked. > >How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02 >assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media? Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my experience. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07202 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:58:41 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my <experience. They were low in defects<frequently none> but there was remaping so platters with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07502 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:50:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 08:49:54 1997 Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (root(a)Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07497 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:50:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA29785; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:49:55 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA05222; Sun, 14 Sep 97 01:49:55 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:49:54 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:38 -0400 Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.874194594.bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > ><Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my ><experience. > >They were low in defects<frequently none> but there was remaping so platters >with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a >pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed. No exacly invisible... The operating system had to be aware of the bad spots, and invent some scheme or other to hide the spots from the user. OS/8's solution is rather hairy. I know, since I didn't have a "formatter" program, so I needed to write one, given the source of the device driver... Bad spots on MSCP disks on the other hand are totally invisible. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07523 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:56:09 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 08:55:55 1997 Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (root(a)Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07518 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA29800; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:55:57 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA05322; Sun, 14 Sep 97 01:55:57 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:55:55 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:31 -0400 Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.874194955.bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ><Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporar ><operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (an ><still are...) > >yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in >that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used >multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80, >NS*dos<z80>, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to >look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time. Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for its rise to fame. If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the 90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.) ><Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :- > >If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is >more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the >time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a >microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989. What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to operating systems in the last twenty years. :-) Who knows how many things Microsoft has reinvented in the last few years, and Unix hasn't been much better either... (Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix nowadays...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07772 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:51:49 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporar <operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (an <still are...) yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80, NS*dos<z80>, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time. <Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :- If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07212 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:58:48 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by A.F.R. Bain

On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot > it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it > be to bootstrap as follows: > > hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which > sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which > then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk Well I've started to use this approach allready and have written most of the code. My scenario is that I have an 11/34 with one RK05, and no other operating systems. I have access to almost unlimited number of PDP-11 serial cards, and other unix boxes. The PDP 11 is configured with two serial ports, one the standard serial console, the other a 9600 baud serial line. These go to the two serial ports on my PC running (which incendtally runs linux). First I send a program (binary) as console emulator instructions to the PDP on the console line. This program is basically a hacked version of /mdec/tboot.s (TU10 boot) which provides getc() and putc() and other bits and bobs. It reads in from console a number (rather than a file name) which is the length of the program to load. This is read in from the second serial port and loaded into memory. I then jump to this and start going. So the procedure is (1) Load tboot.s via console (2) load RKF to format RK-05 (this works fine) (2) load the copy program whose name escapes me at the moment, and transfer the tape image to the RK-05. (3) Boot the RK-05. This seemed to work, and progress was only interupted by the need to move the PDP-11 from Cambridge to home! I have copies of all the programs which need a little finishing off, but I could let people have copies if they are interested. Incidentally I assembled the on Supnik's emulator and then punched them out to the virtual PTP. In fact I also have a longish document which goes through the entire process with all the code (and some new comments) to try and explain how it all works. All this was done using V5 unix code btw. > > Flaws: need different bootstraps for different disks > need different bootstraps for different serial hardware > how to deal with bad blocks? > very slooow > > Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably > build images for different drives. > 7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if > bad blocks were ever dealt with. > > Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be > put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives > would be required. It is slow -- but that doesn't matter if you can go somewhere else while it happens (as long as your RK-05 doesn't catch fire) Alan Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04307 for pups-liszt; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:07:30 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

>All, > I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot >it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it >be to bootstrap as follows: > > hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which > sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which > then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk Well, for what it's worth here's my contribution. I have been able to set up working v5 and v6 systems on my 11/34c (which uses an RK05 drive) uisng the distributed images (thanks Warren). The key here I think is to make use of the excellent work that has been already done on the various PDP-11 emulators. The emulator I use is that of Bob Supnic, which runs wonderfully on my Linux box. v6 is available as an image of a tape. The docs helpfully say: This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image. It is trivial with the UNIX command dd to split the tape image into its constituent parts: 1) Tape bootstap (useless for me) 2) RK05 root image 3) RK05 /usr image 4) RK05 /doc image I can then start the Supnic emulator, attach the three RK05 images to drives 0, 1 and 2 and boot. My system has only a single RK05 drive. As a result I had to mess around in the emulator to create a fresh RK05 image containing a useful subset of the root and /usr images. In practice it's not too hard to get v6 onto a single RK05 pack -- I think it's only necessary to lose stuff like the spell disctionary and so on. I also wanted support for a second DL11 serial line, so I used the emulator (and some extra emulated disk space) to rebuild the kernel. Once I was happy with the disk image I'd created, it was time to transfer it to real hardware. My 11/34c runs RT11 and I was able to get hold of a small stripped down Kermit server-only program from John Wilson. I forget the name of this utility, but it's available from ftp.dbit.com. The stardard RT11 Kermit that I have is unable to transfer entire disk images, the Wilson implementation can do so. Booting the 11/34c from RX01 floppy (one RK05 drive only, remember) I ran the Kermit server. From the PC end it was straightforward to transfer the image: "PUT imagefile.img RK01:". Aside from a spectacular RK05 head crash that put my machine out of action for a while, all was well. For v7, I started with a single RL02 image. That would boot on the simulator. I added a couple of emulated RK05s to the emulator set up and proceded to build a single RK05 which would (just!) hold a bootable v7 image. I warn you that v7 on a 2.5Mb disk is tight, but it can be done. Having built the image, I rebuilt the kernel to enable RK05 support (and a second serial line, again) and disable the other disk drivers. That kernel went onto my new image. Again, the same Kermit trick enabled the image to be transferred to the 11/34a. If anyone wants these RK05 bootable image files, please let me know (rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk - not this address)! A few points though: 1) RK05s packs _can not have_ bad blocks. There is no bad block revectoring on these drives. A bad block on a pack suggests the pack is ready for the dumpster. This makes life a little easier. I'm not sure how you'd deal with bad block revectoring on an RL01/RL02 for example. I guess it's not too hard, but I shan't speculate there. 2) My 11/73, on the other hand, uses an RD53 (last time I looked). I'm not sure if the emulator can deal with these kind of drives. In any case, support for MSCP drives only came with 2BSD, which I've not played with. Maybe the same emulator tricks can be employed to get RDxx images, modulo the bad blocks problem. 3) If you don't have a PDP-11 operating system running, the Kermit approach won't be much use. There may be a stand-alone file transfer program that can write to raw devices. No idea -- perhaps someone needs to write this (both for the PDP and the PC ends). Hope this helps. Cheers, Bob -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Manners (My REAL address is: rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk) BOB'S COMPUTER MUSEUM: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 8 months

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Hi, <Allison, you got a copy? I emailed Dan Ts'o to get a copy, but haven't hear <back from him yet. I got it off the net in one of the archive sites. I have the sources (in C) for it. <The early Unixes didn't have a concept of bad blocks. This will always <be a pain. Not true. They all did as bad blocks have been a fact of life for all computers since day one. Some of the ealy unixes used crude methods from a perfomance standoint but, the bad block replacement was there. Do read LIONS commentary. I was able to get a copy from the local library here in eastern MA (USA) along with several books on BSD design. Unix was really ahead of the pack on many things. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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Re: Bootstrap Idea

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Hi, RE: booting < hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which < sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which < then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk Depending on the hardware many of the qbus 11s have ODT, MOP(serial line), MOP(sync line), TU58, rx01/2 and tu58 boots in rom. It's handy to untilize this. I will not comment on unibus machines as I'm not experinced on those. I favor the MOP boot with a mop responder on a PC to load a loader. The key is to load small program by hand that loads a more complex loader. <Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably < build images for different drives. There lies two problems, the drivers expect RK05. The other is the images may already expect bad block to either not exist or have been remapped off the source device (meaning the BB map copies too). < 7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if < bad blocks were ever dealt with. There is s difference between an install and starting up a coped image that is an already installed system. <Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be <put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives <would be required. There is already a program out there that emulates the serial interfaced TU58 and while limited by the serial line speed the emulation seeks faster than tape as it used ram or file space on disk. <I've used this method on another hardware platform to move disk images <in/out. It is slow, but it works. Same here for non-pdp systems. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From djenner(a)halcyon.com Thu Sep 11 16:01:12 1997 <It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't <help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a <CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to <have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard <distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that <possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system <running on many machines. The sysboot certainly can be floppy and the system can be broken down to multiple floppy volumes for installation. I may also be possible to use a vax to read the CDrom and cut a tape(9track or tk50) from that as well. This of course is predicated on the cdrom. The V6 and V7 binaries however already exist and are available, getting one of them onto a 11/73 and written out as non-image files would help greatly. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA10563 for pups-liszt; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:48 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 12 09:13:31 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10558 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:43 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08771; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199709112313.JAA08771(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs? To: pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <swordfish.873966148(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk> from "pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk" at "Sep 11, 97 09:21:25 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk: > Warren wrote: > > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions > > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition', > > If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is > running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was > build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space, > such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There > are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these > are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a > makefile to configure and build for a small machine. > > It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff > is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is > modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'. > > I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and > also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised. > > Pete Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files off those RL02s? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA10611 for pups-liszt; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:31:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 12 09:31:22 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10606 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:31:12 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09209 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:31:22 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199709112331.JAA09209(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Bootstrap Idea To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:31:22 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it be to bootstrap as follows: hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk Flaws: need different bootstraps for different disks need different bootstraps for different serial hardware how to deal with bad blocks? very slooow Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably build images for different drives. 7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if bad blocks were ever dealt with. Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives would be required. I've used this method on another hardware platform to move disk images in/out. It is slow, but it works. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00163 for pups-liszt; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:39:17 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Warren, <assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already This is the tough part as PDP-11s run a wide variety of OSs. If you have RT-11 (most common) you likely ok. But even then it can influence you choice of devices. IE: RTv4 knows nothing of TK50 and RQDXn controllers and v5.1 does. This is true for RSTS and RSX too. The other is how to get it onto the required media. CDrom is largely PC hardware. If the disk is readable using dos/linux it's fairly easy, though the right supplied utility can help if not. PCs with the right hardware and software can create RX50 and RX33 media, TU58 has been done, RX01 with more effort. SCSI disk are not common on PDP-11s so that is a low yeild path though they also can be done. The PDP-11 world peripheral wise divides across what bus you have Q or U and that influences what peripherals you likely to have. The how of taking one of those binaries and moving to the PDP-11 has eluded me for a while. I have been told it is not possible as they are image files and if you copy an image of an RL02 to an RL02 you better have then same or fewer bad blocks as the image may land on one making it useless. I have been going through some of these gyrations with netBSD for the VAX and they have set of problem that would be common to PDP-11. Check out their FAQs on this for hints and solutions. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA09350 for pups-liszt; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:09:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Sep 12 02:01:12 1997 Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA09345 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:09:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx102-ip30.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.30]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24800; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <341815C8.39585882(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:01:12 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au> CC: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media References: <199709110449.OAA17004(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren, I think you are exactly correct when you say these are the first two eminent, and imminent questions about PDP-11 Unix. They have frequently occurred to me as I drool in anticipation over the possibility of running 2.11BSD on an 11/73! Maybe you or a 2.11BSD expert (Steve Schultz?) could find the "release notes" for 2.11BSD and post them, if that's legal now. That would answer a lot of questions about how to configure a machine or whether a particular machine could handle it. Maybe the release notes from two or three different versions could cover a great majority of potential users; your survey might answer that. It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system running on many machines. Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Allison J Parent: > > > > <See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > > > > I've done the petition. > > > > <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100. > > <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator > > <on the same web page. > > > > I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use. > > > > What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my > > 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported. > > Sorry for the misunderstanding Allison! > > Actually, that's a very good question. As I'm not a hardware person, I'll > pass this over to the other PUPS mailing list members. If/when SCO start > selling licenses & we make CD-ROMs or FTP sites available, this question > is going to come up an awful lot: > > Question 1 > ---------- > > How do I get a Unix distribution onto: > > - a tape, because I have a tape drive > > - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive > > assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already. > > Question 2 > ---------- > > I have [ this particular CPU and this list of other peripherals ]. > What version(s) of Unix can I run on this PDP-11? > > Can anybody help out with answers to Question 1? Bits & pieces of Question 2 > are answered on the PUPS web pages, but they need expanding. > > Thanks in advance for any information, and any programs (boot code etc) > that I can add in to the PUPS archive!! > > Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09835 for pups-liszt; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:43:59 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit According to Warren Toomey: > Question 1 > ---------- > > How do I get a Unix distribution onto: > > - a tape, because I have a tape drive > > - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive > > assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already. For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskimage. I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours, but it worked. Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA06433 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:26:28 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?

by Warren Toomey

All, While I'm thinking of it, does anybody have any old Usenix, EUUG, AUUG etc. newsletters, papers, conference proceedings? Some of these have details about fitting various UNIX flavours onto various PDP-11s, plus other useful information. Anyone care to scan stuff in? I've got some AUUG newsletters dating from 1980 onwards. One of them mentions a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition', which looks like it comes from Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, UK. Does anybody have any knowledge of this version of 7th Edition? Warren

27 years, 8 months

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Re: UNIX for PDP-11

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ I've done the petition. <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100. <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator <on the same web page. I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use. What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03092 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:49:56 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Sep 11 14:49:53 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03087 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:49:52 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17004; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:49:53 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199709110449.OAA17004(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:49:53 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199709110441.AA09464(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Sep 11, 97 00:41:08 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Allison J Parent: > > <See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > > I've done the petition. > > <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100. > <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator > <on the same web page. > > I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use. > > What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my > 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported. Sorry for the misunderstanding Allison! Actually, that's a very good question. As I'm not a hardware person, I'll pass this over to the other PUPS mailing list members. If/when SCO start selling licenses & we make CD-ROMs or FTP sites available, this question is going to come up an awful lot: Question 1 ---------- How do I get a Unix distribution onto: - a tape, because I have a tape drive - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already. Question 2 ---------- I have [ this particular CPU and this list of other peripherals ]. What version(s) of Unix can I run on this PDP-11? Can anybody help out with answers to Question 1? Bits & pieces of Question 2 are answered on the PUPS web pages, but they need expanding. Thanks in advance for any information, and any programs (boot code etc) that I can add in to the PUPS archive!! Warren

27 years, 8 months

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UNIX for PDP-11

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Hello, Curiousity, How does one get a license for a PDP-11 version of unix these days? I've had an 11/73 I've been itching to run unix on. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03054 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:41:19 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Re: SysIII UNIX for PDP-11

by Warren Toomey

[Robert has got a copy of System II for PDP-11 on tapes] > If I had a way to copy the tapes, I would have no problem and i'm not > even sure what is exactly on the tapes or if they are still good as I've > never really used them as the Unix III was already loaded on disks when I > got them PDP-11/34 from Bell Labs. > > (The sytem was used here in Bell Labs here in Indianapolis, IN to help > develope the first speech recognition system and I still have most of > the software "somehwere" on RL01/02 packs, so I'm kinda attached to the > tapes.) > > And, I have a gentleman here that is going to come pick up all my PDP > stuff in the next month or so for a computer museum he is putting together. > > So, if you can copy the tapes, I might be talked in to releasing the > tapes to you for copying for a good cause. Robert, I forgot to cc my reply to the others on the PUPS mailing list. Would anybody in the US be able to look at Robert's tapes to see if we can recover System III? John Holden just donated System V to the PUPS archive, so System III would also be a good addition. Please email to Robert & the mailing list if you are willing to look at the tapes. Thanks in advance, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02864 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:14:17 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 8 months

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Searchable PUPS Mail Archive

by Warren Toomey

I've set up a searchable archive of the mail from the PDP-11 Unix mailing list, at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/pups.cgi Let me know of any problems with it. Updates to the archive will be done manually until I iron out some script bugs! Warren

27 years, 8 months

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Re: PDP-11 Unix CD-ROM archive burn

by pnt103＠ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk

Warren wrote: : If you don't have RK05 or RL02s, someone should be able to build : a suitable disk image for you. I think you'll need to go 6th Edition : as you have a /23. 7th Edition runs fine on an 11/23 or 11/34, providing you build the 'small machine' version. I've had 7th on my 11/23 with 256K and 2xRL02 for years. Pete >From Kevin Wright <Kevin.Wright(a)VITREX.com> Tue Sep 2 11:25:46 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA20651 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:51:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06214 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:51:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from ntmain.vitrex.com (nt-main.vitrex.com [206.81.142.97]) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06092 for <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:36:01 +1000 (EST) Received: by nt-main.vitrex.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id <Q678J82F>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:25:49 -0600 Message-ID: <B0620B9317B0D0119D3C0060976CE96418BB(a)nt-main.vitrex.com> From: Kevin Wright <Kevin.Wright(a)VITREX.com> To: "'wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au'" <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 hardware liquidation Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:25:46 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au 1-SEP-97 As owner of a PDP-11/23+ system, I know how difficult it can be to find hardware for older PDP-11's. I'd like to inform you that I've found a terrific source in Utah for used DEC hardware including PDP-11 related items. This person has a 2400 sq ft warehouse (about 3 semi truck loads) quite literally brimming with computer hardware which has been collected and stored over the past 10 years. He is currently in the process of liquidating it at very, very low prices. Tons of miscellaneous computer equipment is available, much of which was manufactured by DEC. It would be impossible to list even a fraction of what he has available, but he has told me that his inventory includes approximately 1000 Q-Bus and Unibus boards, plus peripheral devices such as disk and tape drives. I've not been to the warehouse in person yet , but I will be visiting the site in about 2 weeks time from now. If interested, you should be aware that he is in the process of getting rid of EVERYTHING! It sounds like it will all be gone in the next 3 to 4 weeks. Opportunities like this very seldom come along, so please contact me via email if you are interested in finding out more. I'll be happy to forward to you, any needed information that I can. Please feel free to forward this notice to anyone you think might be interested. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24452 for pups-liszt; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:22:33 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 3 16:23:06 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24447 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:22:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07853; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:06 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199709030623.QAA07853(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PUPS Mailing List - Now Majordomo To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:06 +1000 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I've just moved the PUPS (old PDP-11 Unix) mailing list over to run under MajorDomo. I'm still learning MajorDomo, so there might be some teething troubles. The new list is called: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Can you update any aliases that point to this list. I will keep the original /etc/aliases mailing list oldunix(a)cs.adfa.oz.au around for a while until I'm sure the new one works fine. As with MajorDomo, you can send messages to get off the mailing list. Please let me know of any problems. Updates: SCO Petition, CD-R writers etc. ---------------------------------------- Ok, we're still chatting with SCO. I got a summary of internal mail which shows that there are 2 sides in SCO, those who think it's a good idea (PR-wise at least) and those who can't see the point & who think it's a can of worms. I feel that the people on our side are winning. I've been trying to explain the history of some of the UNIX flavours to their legal eagle, who must know recent history only. I think we can iron things out. Several people from Europe & the US said that they had access to a CD-R writer, & could write CDs, if that became the distribution method for passing on the PUPS archive. I will probably go buy a new X-Gig disk to give the archive a proper FTP home. I've come up with a new archive layout & will pass it on to you all for comments. Anyway, it looks like progress is being made & we should be able to buy personal UNIX licenses soon :-). More updates to the list as things happen. Thanks for your suport!! Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au

27 years, 8 months

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Re: PUPS

by Warren Toomey

In article by Mark D. Roth: > Warren, > > I have a PDP-11/03-L at home that I rescued from Bell+Howell Corp and > know next to nothing about. I'm looking for any info I might be able > to find on how to get this machine running, as well as any info I > might find about getting a Unix implementation for it. I don't think you'll get Unix running on an /03, I just searched thru the paper archives here and I've seen references to /23's, /34's, 40's on up, but not for /03's. I'd suspect that the /03 doesn't have the memory management (nor the memory) to get Unix running. > I saw reference to a mailing list on the webpage, but no information > on how to join. What can you tell me? Mark, I'll add you to the list, and bounce this there as well; someone with more knowledge of -11 hardware should be able to set us both straight with regards to 11/03's. Cheers, Warren >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Aug 11 13:53:16 1997 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16892 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:53:33 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA21891; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199708110353.UAA21891(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: roth(a)uiuc.edu, wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PUPS Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Warren, Mark - > In article by Mark D. Roth: > > I have a PDP-11/03-L at home that I rescued from Bell+Howell Corp and > > know next to nothing about. I'm looking for any info I might be able > > I don't think you'll get Unix running on an /03, I just searched thru the Quite correct. > paper archives here and I've seen references to /23's, /34's, 40's on up, > but not for /03's. I'd suspect that the /03 doesn't have the memory management > (nor the memory) to get Unix running. Warren - you're absolutely right. The 11/03 has a maximum memory (most were not fully populated) of 56kbytes and _no_ memory management. Any Unix (since the initial one on the PDP-7) requires at least two memory management states: kernel and user. Much later versions can take advantage of the 3rd mode (supervisor). Smallest machine I ever ran Unix on was an 11/23 (the development was done on a 11/70 because various programs were too large to run on a non split I/D machine such as the 11/23) and it was, shall we say, "interesting". Just enough memory (max of 248kb) to run one or two user processes at a time (we had a rather large kernel and some homebrew communications drivers) - you could get logged in and then each time you typed a command the shell would get swapped out to run your command ;). > Mark, I'll add you to the list, and bounce this there as well; someone > with more knowledge of -11 hardware should be able to set us both straight > with regards to 11/03's. You got it right - nothing to set straight. Steven Schultz >From George Coulouris <George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Fri Aug 22 01:49:53 1997 Received: from hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.162]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA15526 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:51:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from dialup-port4.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.234]; by hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.8.6/8.8.5/S-4.0) with ESMTP; id QAA14257; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:50:53 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: george(a)mailhost.dcs.qmw.ac.uk Message-Id: <l0311070db0221139bb07(a)[138.37.88.234]> In-Reply-To: <9708070839.AA04553(a)descartes.numerik.math.uni-siegen.de> References: <199708062322.JAA03135(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Aug 7, 97 09:22:07 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:49:53 +0100 To: Michael Engel <engel(a)numerik.math.uni-siegen.de> From: George Coulouris <George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Subject: Re: George's PDP Tape in UK Cc: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>, wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey), oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Dear Michael, Many thanks for your offer. Sorry for the delay in replying. If you are still willing I would like to take up your offer. If you will mail me your physical mail address, I'll send you the tape. As far as I can remember the tape is a UNIX tar archive, that should be readable on the VMS machine and you could give the files back to me by ftp. (I'm taking up your offer rather than Tim Bradshaw's because you seem to have had more recent success with reading old tapes. Thanks again, George At 9:39 am +0100 7/8/97, Michael Engel wrote: * > * We have a TU81+ 9 track tape connected to a VMS Alpha here. So, if you send * me the tape, I will try to read it. Worked perfectly some months ago for a * 10 yr. old tape from a DECsystem 10 ... * At 3:22 pm +0100 7/8/97, Tim Bradshaw wrote: * * We have old-tape-reading-technology, so we could give it a try. No * promises at all though (I have to turn the drive back on &c, and it's * not altogether clear that it will work, though it did last time I * tried it), asnd it will take me ages to get around to it, being very * inefficient... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ George F. Coulouris | Computer Science Dept Professor of Computer Systems | QMW, University of London WWW: http://www.dcs.qmw.ac.uk/~george | Mile End Road Phone: +44 171 975 5201 (direct line) | London E1 4NS Fax: +44 181 980 6533 | United Kingdom Home phone: +44 171 485 5896 | pager: 01426 183113 | >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 27 10:45:58 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01510 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:45:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03801 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:45:58 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199708270045.KAA03801(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:45:58 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, Here is the latest email from SCO with regards to PDP-11 UNIX source licenses. I'll add one comment at the bottom. Please treat this as YOUR EYES ONLY. I haven't got permission from Dion to forward this on (yet), but I think that more pairs of eyes than just mine need to have a look at it for any problems. ----- Forwarded message from Dion ----- From: Dion <dionj(a)sco.COM> X-Mailer: SCO OpenServer Mail Release 5.0 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Touching Base! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 12:45:07 PDT Warren, Good progress. We have some positive consensus developing. Here is the proposed license terms (roughly, not fully legalized yet). Please let me know if you see any problems with this proposal: Here are the terms that I think make sense: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- License terms: * the license covers the entire distributions (source code, binaries and documentation) of the following versions of UNIX: o 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX o 32V UNIX o PWB/UNIX o those portions of all 2BSD releases which are derived from UNIX source code * licensees have these rights wrt the binaries and source code of the above versions of UNIX: use store reproduce edit adapt enchance improve otherwise modify transmit electronically repackage * These rights are licensed to noncommercial users. The source may not be sold nor used to develop commercial versions of UNIX. * licensees have the right to install UNIX binaries on PDP-11 hardware and PDP-11 emulating software * licensees have the right to allow noncommercial use the UNIX binaries on systems for which the product is licensed. (Note that the latter is already permitted, given SCO's binary license agreement for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX. We would also be happy with the following conditions imposed in the source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes) * license is not transferable. * source code covered by the license cannot be distributed or disclosed to people not covered by the license. The licensees are permitted to collaborate on modifications and mutually share their modifications. * SCO is not required to provide copies of any source code, binaries or documentation with the source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes License Fee: SCO charges a one-time license fee of $100 per licensee, for a site license for one organization. We may, at some future time, provide source distributions (if/when we can find the sources), but this is not committed. We know that the licensees have, between them, most of the needed sources. ----- End of forwarded message from Dion ----- My comment. The only thing I want to change is: * licensees have the right to install UNIX binaries on PDP-11 hardware and PDP-11 emulating software becomes * licensees have the right to install UNIX software on PDP-11 hardware and PDP-11 emulating software This allows us to install source so as to modify it or to rebuild kernels etc. I briefly raised the issue of source distribution (SCO or me? FTP or CD-ROM?), but I suggested that we leave it until the licenses go on sale. Please email your comments on this to the mailing list (oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Thanks, Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 27 15:51:20 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02507 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:52:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00316; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:51:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199708270551.PAA00316(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:51:20 +1000 (EST) Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199708270539.WAA16297(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Aug 26, 97 10:39:11 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article by Steven M. Schultz: > It looks to me that SCO has granted "us" every single thing we were > asking for. I've thought of a few more changes: In the wording from SCO, the status of `documentation' is unclear. The following should clear this up: + use the term software == `source, binaries and documentation' in many places where this is appropriate. + use the term `source' only where they want to restrict to licensees. + also, don't disclose `source' to people not covered by the SCO license or by existing UNIX software licenses from Western Electric and AT&T. Comments anybody? Warren >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Aug 29 11:43:09 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08783 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:44:23 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03340; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:43:09 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199708290143.LAA03340(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO To: mcjones(a)pa.dec.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:43:09 +1000 (EST) Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <9708281506.AA29078(a)numbat05-an2.pa.dec.com> from "mcjones(a)pa.dec.com" at "Aug 28, 97 08:06:23 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article by mcjones(a)pa.dec.com: > > > Maybe someone else can volunteer, if I organise the contents :-) > > There's one here at my workplace. I don't know how to use it myself. > I could probably get some help in burning one or two, but I don't > think it would be appropriate to burn dozens or hundreds. How many > licensees do you anticipate? There's 300 signatures on the petition. I'd hope that 1/2 of those will buy licenses, and probably most would like the stuff in easy-to-use form. I know that Steven Schultz has access to a writer too (hint hint!). I will probably buy another hard disk here for the PDP archive, and give access to license holders. I'd like to get users to suggest layout changes & what should be exploded etc. so that we can burn a 650M CD image directly from the archive. Currently, the archive is sitting at 250M, so there's room to explode many of the distributions stored there. We also need to sit down and catalogue this stuff so that it's not just a collection of random tapes. I'm slowly doing this & have done the most important stuff, see the Tapes/DETAILS file if you ftp in. But more work needs to be done. So hopefully, we can pass the archive (as a Rock Ridge image) to a few volunteers to burn CD-R copies. Anybody in Europe who would volunteer? Just an idea! Warren >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Aug 31 12:41:29 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15039 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:42:48 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04803; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:41:29 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199708310241.MAA04803(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix CD-ROM archive burn To: Kevin.Wright(a)VITREX.com (Kevin Wright) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:41:29 +1000 (EST) Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <B0620B9317B0D0119D3C0060976CE96418B8(a)nt-main.vitrex.com> from Kevin Wright at "Aug 29, 97 09:24:27 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article by Kevin Wright: > I could very possibly volunteer to do one. I have access to my > companies cdrom burner. > > Subject change: > I own a PDP-11/23+ for which I'm constantly searching the Internet for > RT-11 and TSX+ documentation and software, as well as any other OS's > such as Unix. Do you have any such software/documentation in your > archive of which you would be willing to allow me a copy? Kevin, until you can buy a license from SCO (soon I hope), all I can offer are the binaries for 6th & 7th Edition. If you have an RK05 or RL02, then you can get disk images as part of Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator, at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11-sims/Supnik_2.3 (or a similar URL, I'm typing from memory). If you don't have RK05 or RL02s, someone should be able to build a suitable disk image for you. I think you'll need to go 6th Edition as you have a /23. Warren

27 years, 9 months

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Re: Old UNIX ftp archive - access ideas

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit According to Warren Toomey: > If I become the `central repository' for the software, then I'd like to > set up access procedures which ensure that only legitimate users can access > the archive, and that eavesdropping or hacking access to the archive > shouldn't divulge its contents easily. Isn't ftp for a $200-programm secure enough? I'm doing beta testing for a programm, which costs $1100 and they distribute the passwords for ftp by unencrypted mail. They do that allready for a few releases and I don't think they had any problems with that. > Keep the archive files encrypted: > > - This will stop hackers who penetrate the archive from getting the > plaintext version of the files. I suggest using PGP with a very > large key size to encrypt the files. The key won't be kept on the > archive machine. I don't think you need a very large key. Everyone, which has the choice to crack a 512bit key or to pay $200, would choose to pay. > I'd really like feedback from you about the proposed scheme for providing > access to this old UNIX software! I think pgp is to difficult to use for some. You could use a simple encryption programm like: ftp://isidor.ethz.ch/pub/simpl/safer.V1.1.tar.Z which should be very portable. The passphrase could be distributed on the license. Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Aug 7 09:22:07 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03636 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:22:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03135; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:22:08 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199708062322.JAA03135(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: George's PDP Tape in UK To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:22:07 +1000 (EST) Cc: George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear PDP-11 UNIXers, Just got this back from George Coulouris in the UK. He's got an old tape with PDP-11 UNIX software on it which he'd like to read: * In article by George Coulouris: * > Warren, * > Thanks for your reply. I'd be happy to liase with anyone who is willing to * > have a go at reading the tape. * > George * [and later...] * Did anybody get back to you about reading that old PDP-11 tape, George?? No, I'm afraid not. I have been told that there is a 9-track tape drive at another centre in London, but I haven't pursued it 'cos I was waiting for contact from your people. George ------- Can anybody in the UK or Europe who would be happy to read this old tape for George & for the PUPS archive please email him! His address is George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk Many thanks in advance, Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au >From Michael Engel <engel(a)numerik.math.uni-siegen.de> Thu Aug 7 18:39:42 1997 Received: from bernoulli.numerik.math.uni-siegen.de (mathe2e.numerik.math.Uni-Siegen.DE [141.99.158.230]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10664 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:44:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from descartes.numerik.math.uni-siegen.de (descartes.numerik.math.uni-siegen.de [141.99.112.4]) by bernoulli.numerik.math.uni-siegen.de (Mailhost) with SMTP id KAA11395; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:41:25 +0200 (MET DST) From: Michael Engel <engel(a)numerik.math.uni-siegen.de> Message-Id: <9708070839.AA04553(a)descartes.numerik.math.uni-siegen.de> Received: by descartes.numerik.math.uni-siegen.de id AA04553; Thu, 7 Aug 97 10:39:43 +0200 Subject: Re: George's PDP Tape in UK To: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:39:42 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <199708062322.JAA03135(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Aug 7, 97 09:22:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Hi, it seems my mail didn`t come through last time ... > Just got this back from George Coulouris in the UK. He's got an > old tape with PDP-11 UNIX software on it which he'd like to read: > > * In article by George Coulouris: > * > Warren, > * > Thanks for your reply. I'd be happy to liase with anyone who is willing to > * > have a go at reading the tape. > * > George > > [and later...] > > * Did anybody get back to you about reading that old PDP-11 tape, George?? > > No, I'm afraid not. > > I have been told that there is a 9-track tape drive at another centre in > London, but I haven't pursued it 'cos I was waiting for contact from your > people. > We have a TU81+ 9 track tape connected to a VMS Alpha here. So, if you send me the tape, I will try to read it. Worked perfectly some months ago for a 10 yr. old tape from a DECsystem 10 ... regards, Michael Engel (engel(a)unix-ag.uni-siegen.de)

27 years, 9 months

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PDP-11/73 UNIX

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

I have a micro11/73 with RX50 and RD53 drives. Is there a BSD variant which I can run on the thing? Regards, Bob -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Manners (My REAL address is: rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk) BOB'S COMPUTER MUSEUM: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Aug 1 13:19:52 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21972 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:18:50 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10575 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:19:52 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199708010319.NAA10575(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Old UNIX ftp archive - access ideas To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:19:52 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear PDP-11 & old Unix enthusiasts, Status report of our petition to SCO about UNIX src licenses. I received this from Dion Johnson last week: Warren, Thanks for your latest news. That's great about the signatures. Yes, I perused the earlier list and it's really amazing that we have such famous support for this. I am sure it will be a great PR victory when we finally get this arranged. Our exec VP (Doug Michels) is on your side. I am annoying our legal folks, bless their hearts. :-) They have a job to do also and I want to be sure we are protecting SCO's interests in the code in the right ways. I expect an answer in a week or so. I suspect there will be further internal iterations here as we craft a license that works for all parties. So the right answer to publish is: "SCO is pleased to entertain this request from so many loyal and famous fans of UNIX. We are looking into how we can provide this source code. No promises at this time, since there are some intellectual property issues that must be resolved, but we will do what we can." I'll email when I hear more. It occurred to me that if SCO agree to src licenses and people buy them, then they will of course want the software. I already make the stuff available to several people, on the trust that they have existing src licenses (e.g show me the first 100 lines of v7 nami.c etc.) At the moment, it's all sitting as .tar.gz files on my desktop box. If I become the `central repository' for the software, then I'd like to set up access procedures which ensure that only legitimate users can access the archive, and that eavesdropping or hacking access to the archive shouldn't divulge its contents easily. I'm after comments from you guys, the end users of the archive, as to what sounds good, ok, bad, annoying and/or plain stupid to you. Proposal -------- Make the archive available via FTP: - To prevent capture of ftp passwords, I suggest that each license owner has an ftp account, and authentication is done using S/Key. To distribute the S/Key key phrase or a number of S/Key pass phrases to the license owners, I suggest using PGP email. Keep the archive files encrypted: - This will stop hackers who penetrate the archive from getting the plaintext version of the files. I suggest using PGP with a very large key size to encrypt the files. The key won't be kept on the archive machine. Transmission to license owner - Suggestion A: - Transmit the PGP encrypted files `as is' to the license owner via ftp. Shortcoming: every license owner has the same private key required to decrypt the files. A hacker only needs to find one vulnerable license owner to get the key. Transmission to license owner - Suggestion B: - On-the-fly PGP encrypt the files using a key specific to the license owner. Shortcoming: end user must have a personal key plus the common key, and must decrypt everything twice. Transmission to license owner - Suggestion C: - On-the-fly decrypt the archive file, and on-the-fly re-encrypt it using a key specific to the license owner. End user only needs one personal PGP key to decrypt the file. Shortcoming: the key required to decrypt the file back to plaintext must exist on the archive server. Hackers who break-in can thus get plaintext. I think I prefer Suggestion A. For all 3 suggestions above, PGP private keys will be sent to license holders using PGP email. Anyway, this is an off the cuff set of ideas. I certainly want to keep my butt from being sued off by SCO :-), and so I need to authenticate users, keep audit trails of downloads and logins, and take reasonable steps to prevent non-legitimate users from accessing the licensed material. I'd really like feedback from you about the proposed scheme for providing access to this old UNIX software! Thanks in advance, Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Aug 1 14:02:29 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22018 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:01:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10623 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:02:29 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199708010402.OAA10623(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: ideas re UNIX licensed distribution To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:02:29 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199708010345.UAA27393(a)generic.yamato.com> from "Robert J. Kelley" at "Jul 31, 97 08:45:03 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article by Robert J. Kelley: > > Why not just use SSH: verified licensees could submit keys and > the archive server would keep them on file. scp could be used > to retrieve the files. I'd still have to encrypt the archive files that are resident on disk. Also, ssh is more of a `general' login account. scp would allow someone to retrieve /etc/password :-) If I could restrict scp access, that'd be an ok alternative. Warren >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Aug 1 14:33:26 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22403 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:32:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10684 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:33:26 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199708010433.OAA10684(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Old UNIX ftp archive - access ideas To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:33:26 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199708010412.VAA15987(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jul 31, 97 09:12:05 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article by Steven M. Schultz: > > Make the archive available via FTP: > > Convenient but the management of "accounts" and S/Key or PGP keys > could be a real logistic nightmare. > > Have you considered putting the archive on CDrom and shipping that > upon receipt of a copy of the license? Naturally there would be > a modest fee for the media and shipping. > > Probably would want a "mirror" shipping office in the US. > > The reason I asked the "what will most folks want" question earlier > was that perhaps folks only want a handful or a couple pieces. CDrom > writing is extremely simple (I think FreeBSD makes it harder or more > complex than other systems though) - perhaps folks could, with the > request for a CD specify which parts they want and a "custom" CD > could be created. > > This approach does have its own set of problems but it does do away > with network snooping, outages and breakins. The archive could be > offline or encrypted with a key known only to you - if you needed to > make something available you could decrypt a copy and make it available > for a small timewindow. > > I know I'm planning on creating a few CDs to safeguard the stuff I've > obtained so far - good (and cheap) protection against disk crashes > and unreadable backup tapes. > > A variation on this scheme would be to master a CD with everything > on it and let SCO send the CD out along with the license when > payment is received. Hmmmm - I kinda like this the more I think > about it. Might even get some nice artwork (the BSD 'imp'?) on > the cover. I'm sure SCO gets a real good rate at the CD pressing > plant so the media cost would be lower than an individual doing it > on a CDwriter. > Perhaps the online/FTP archive could be a backup or secondary > means of distribution - if someone convinces you (or sends a copy > of the license) they have the license but lost the media, etc you > could set up a PGP encrypted account for them. > Cheers. > Steven Yes, I'd thought about cutting a CD directly from the current archive, and certainly having someone (SCO, me?) distribute files on CD would make the administration a lot easier. I guess license holders could buy `upgrade CDs' if the archive changes. If SCO come to the src license party, I certainly will ask them about pressing CDs and distributing them as part of the license sale. Thanks for the input Steven! Warren

27 years, 10 months

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Re: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd)

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

In atricle by Neil Johnson: > Unfortunately I cannot justify calling sources for man pages "object code". > Redistributing the man pages may be in the spirit of SCO's agreement, but > is not allowed in the agreement. I do not think they should be added to the > distribution without SCO's permission. > > Finally a disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is just my understanding of > the licence, for which I give SCO my thanks. > Neil THat was my impression too, Neil. I was being hopeful (as always). We do need to talk with SCO (via Bob Supnik?) to ensure we have SCO's permission first. Thanks! Warren >From Michael Engel <engel(a)unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Thu Jan 23 10:49:20 1997 Received: from si-nic.hrz.uni-siegen.de (root(a)si-nic.hrz.uni-siegen.de [141.99.128.16]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with SMTP id LAA07808; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:49:53 +1059 Received: from vespa.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> by si-nic.hrz.uni-siegen.de with SMTP (5.67b/UniSiegen 1.1) id AA01756; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:49:52 +0100 Received: (from engel@localhost) by vespa.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de (Mailhost) id BAA21049; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:49:21 +0100 (MET) From: Michael Engel <engel(a)unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Message-Id: <199701230049.BAA21049(a)vespa.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Subject: Re: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd) To: wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:49:20 +0100 (MET) Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <9701222201.AA22095@dolphin> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 23, 97 09:01:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text > > Warren, > > > > I'm not sure if the PUPS members would be interested, but I have > > successfully been able to run the 7th Edition RL02 image that accompanies > > Bob Supniks emulator on a real PDP-11/23+.Jim Carpenter (jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net) > > deserves a special thanks for helping me work out a few problems in bringing > > it up. If any other members of the group are interested in doing the same I > > would be happy to help. > > Bob, I'm cc'ing this reply to the mailing list so that the others will > get a copy. Great ! Finally gotta dig out that old RL02 drive ... How did you manage to get the image onto the RL02 ? > Secondly, I'm unsure of the copyright/legal status of the man pages. > It would be good if they could be released publically. I might ask Bob > Supnik if he has any ideas. Some time ago, the 7th Edition man pages were available on http://plan9.att.com. This machine currently seems to be down, so I can't verify if the man pages are still there. regards, Michael Engel (engel(a)unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) >From "Bob Armstrong" <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> Thu Jan 23 15:20:45 1997 Received: from wetware.wetware.com (root(a)wetware.wetware.com [207.20.11.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with SMTP id QAA08114; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:37:05 +1100 Received: from poco-adagio by wetware.wetware.com via rmail with uucp id <m0vnHqJ-000NO4C(a)wetware.wetware.com> for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:36:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-14) Received: by poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Wed, 22 Jan 97 21:20:45 PST Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 21:20:45 PST Message-Id: <009AEC32982F5600.00000130(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> Subject: RE: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-VMS-Mail-To: uucp%"oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au" >Bob, firstly if you can write down the details of how you got the >image installed & running on the 23+, and email it to the mailing list >(oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) that'd be great, as I archive the mail. It was actually quite simple. Bob Supnik's RL02 file is simply a byte for byte dump of a pack. That is, it's just sector 0, head 0, cylinder 0 followed by sector 1, head 0, cylinder 0, ... then all the sectors of head 1, cylinder 0, then cylinder 1, etc. There are no overhead bytes in the file an no interleaving is used. RL02s have 40 sectors of 256 bytes each per track, two heads, and 512 cylinders for a total 10240K bytes per disk (which happens to be exactly the size of Bob's RL02 file :-) You want to be careful about bad sectors, since RL02s do bad block replacement at the device driver level. If your pack has any bad sectors that aren't at exactly the same spot as bad sectors on Bob's original pack (not very likely!), then this isn't going to work. Fortunately error free RL02 packs are relatively easy to come by. Anyway, since the only other RL02 that I have access to is on a VMS system, I had to write a little program for VMS to load the disk using physical I/O. I'd be happy to make this program available if anyone wants it. Once you have the pack loaded, you can just mount it on a 11/23 and use the RL02 hardware boostrap. The Unix boot will start and print a "@" for a prompt. Reply by entering "unix" and carriage return, and you'll see "mem=205376" followed by "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z and Unix will start timesharing, then you can login in using root with the password "pdp". I had two problems in this process. First, I didn't know about the Unix bootstrap program (I'm afraid I've never used Bob's emulator!), and when I saw the "@" I just blindly assumed I'd been dumped back into ODT. Fortunately Jim Carpenter was kind enough to educate me about this. Second, Unix would hang up as soon as I started timesharing. This turned out to be because my LTC in the 11/23 wasn't working, which doesn't bother RT11 at all but it does hang Unix. After I repaired the hardware everything ran fine. If someone has a PDP-11 with a RL02 drive and no way to load V7 on a pack, I am willing to do it if you send me a blank RL02. I believe the SCO license allows this so long as: 1) I don't charge for the service 2) You certify that it is for non-commerical use 3) I include a printed copy of SCO's license Note that this kernel supports only RL02 drives, so unless your -11 has a RL02 drive this system won't work. RD5x and RA8x drives won't do. A similar procedure would probably work with the RK05 images, but I don't have the hardware to try. >Finally, many of the members of the PUPS mail list are covered by >source code licenses, so if you can tell us what device you require, I have a 11/23, DLV11J (4 lines), RL02/RLV11, TU58 (on one of the DLV11 ports), RX02/RXV21, and a TSV05 9-track tape. The TSV05 is TS11 compatible, and I'd especially like to have support for it. Bob's kernel supports MASSBUS tapes, but not a TS11. >I'm sure someone can build a kernel for you. I wonder if it's legal to >ship a kernel which has device drivers not in Bob Supnik's disk image?! SCO's license seems to cover all PDP-11 binaries for 7th Edition Unix, and it doesn't seem to say anything about their origin. Of course, I'm not a lawyer either. Bob >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Feb 11 15:38:53 1997 Received: from csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.20.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with ESMTP id QAA13586; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:39:17 +1100 Received: (from wkt@localhost) by csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08050; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:38:53 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:38:53 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199702110538.QAA08050(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au> To: moffen(a)ix.netcom.com Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 [Mike is taking over a sysadmin job for a UNIX PDP-11. He hasn't seen one before. Can someone help!] > Thanks for the response. I am told that it's running unix. I start the > job the end of this week. The person I am replacing will be fired the > day I start. So, I have never seen their computer room, and will not > have any passwords or other info. It is critical that I gain control of > the system and prevent that person from getting into the system. Any > suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. > > Thanks again, > > Mike Offenberg > moffen(a)ix.netcom.com Ok, I'd try to chat with the person before they leave! At least to get the root password. I am cc'ing this email to a group of PDP-11 Unix users who may be able to help you out. I'd guess it's a 6th or 7th Edition UNIX, or a 2BSD system. What you really need to know is: + how to get a root login on the system + how to change the root password + how to reboot the system properly If the person leaves root logged in on the console, at least you can type passwd and change the root password. If they haven't, then there is no easy way of getting a root login to change the password, except for rebooting the system. Rebooting depends on what PDP-11 you've got there. If you can find out, someone here should be able to explain how to boot into single-user mode, where you have a root prompt and can change the root password and then go to multi-user mode. I'll try to get the basic maintenance manuals for these old UNIX systems put into ASCII and email them to you. Cheers, Warren >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 29 15:11:09 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11464 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:11:11 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10537 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:11:10 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199704290511.PAA10537(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PUPS Mailing list To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:11:09 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, this is just a mailout to the PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society mailing list, as I've just added half a dozen addresses & I thought it would be a good idea to check that all the old & new addresses are valid. If you want off, please email me back! Looks like Bob Supnik's emulators have sparked a bit of interest in these old systems. Welcome to the new users of PDP-11 Unix! Cheers, Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jun 4 11:33:19 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18807 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:33:20 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA00384 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:33:19 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199706040133.LAA00384(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: CSR/vector calculator for the archives (fwd) To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:33:19 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Forwarded message from Tom I Helbekkmo ----- To: wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) From: Tom I Helbekkmo <tih(a)nhh.no> Subject: CSR/vector calculator for the archives Hi, Warren! I've written a CSR and vector calculator, based on VMS documentation and comparison tested against VMS SYSGEN. For want of a better name, I'm simply calling the program 'sysgen' -- this shows its heritage, at least... :-) This should be useful to PDP (and VAX) users who don't have a VMS system handy, and would like to configure their systems according to DEC standard. Would you add it to the PUPS archives and send out an announcement to the mailing list, please? Thanks! -tih ----- End of forwarded message from Tom I Helbekkmo ----- I assume this runs on any box with a C compiler. I've stashed it in the archive in the Progams section. If you don't have a Unix license, let me know & I'll email it to you. Warren >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Jun 26 09:54:27 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28238 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:54:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04546 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:54:27 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199706252354.JAA04546(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: No progress on PDP-11 Unix source licenses, ideas? To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:54:27 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear PDP-11 Unix people, I'm emailing you because I haven't done much in the last few months about encouraging SCO to sell source licenses for PDP-11 UNIX, and I think it's time we try a new tack. The person I've been negotiating with a SCO is Dion Johnson, dionj(a)sco.com. I pestered him a lot last year and so perhaps I've worn out my welcome with him. So I'd like to suggest another approach or two. Perhaps another person interested in PDP-11 UNIX source licenses can try talking with Dion or other people at SCO? Any volunteers? Steven Schultz? Bob Supnik? Alternatively, if nobody comes forward, we could all email Dion expressing our desires for sources licenses for these old UNIX versions. Looking at the survey I've been conducting at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/, at least 130 people are interested in source licenses, and the general consensus is: No resale of license is acceptable No source redistribution is acceptable 50/50 split on single-user-only licenses No commercial usage is acceptable Full source code is preferable Main UNIXes to be covered are 5th,6th,7th Edition and 2BSD. Cost of license no more than US$200, max. After reviewing the email from Dion, I'd add another condition which would make SCO happy: Source license adequately protects SCO's intellectual property, in their view. Anyway, please email your suggestions on what we should do to the PUPS mailing list (oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) or to me. I think the single person approach is better than flooding Dion with email. Maybe we can sign an email petition and deliver that to a number of people at SCO? Thanks in advance for your input! Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jun 27 11:24:14 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29897 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:23:50 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06719 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:24:14 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199706270124.LAA06719(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Petition to SCO for licenses To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:24:14 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear PDP-11 UNIX people, The small response to my suggestions about lobbying SCO for source licenses brought some volunteers for the cause, and a preference for a single petition to SCO rather than mail-bombing :-) If you didn't respond, please let me know what you think & if you're willing to help out. I've written a draft petition, which is attached below, and is also available (with some hyperlinks) at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html Is there anything in the draft you disagree with, or wish to change? Please let me know!! Warren The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. Dear Sirs/Madams, We, the undersigned, are a group of people who are interested in obtaining source code and binary copies of the versions of UNIX that ran on the PDP-11 range of computers from Digital Equipment Corporation. We would like to have copies of these versions of UNIX because: + they are of great historical importance, and/or + we personally own PDP-11 computers on which these systems will run. The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. owns the copyright to these very old versions of UNIX. We understand and appreciate that SCO wishes to protect their intellectual property within, and ownership of, these versions of UNIX. Therefore, we wish to petition SCO to make available source code and binary licenses of these versions of UNIX so that: + we can legally own source code and binaries for PDP-11 UNIXes, and + SCO's copyright and intellectual property is protected. We would be happy to purchase and be legally bound by a source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes that meets SCO's requirements, as long as: + the license covers the entire distributions (source code, binaries and documentation) of the following versions of UNIX: - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX - 32V UNIX - PWB/UNIX - those portions of all 2BSD releases which are derived from UNIX source code + we have the right to make changes to the source code of the above versions of UNIX + we have the right to distribute our changes to other people who have signed and agreed to the source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes + we have the right to install UNIX binaries on PDP-11 hardware and PDP-11 emulating software + we have the right to allow other people to use the UNIX binaries on such an installation Note that the latter is already permitted, given SCO's binary license agreement for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX. We would also be happy with the following conditions imposed in the source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes: + no resale of the license is permitted + source code covered by the license cannot be distributed or disclosed to people not covered by the license + no commercial usage of the source code or binaries is permitted + SCO is not required to include copies of any source code, binaries or documentation with the source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes On a recent survey of people interested in such a license (see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/) over 120 people responded. Most of the respondents would agree to a license with the conditions and limitations outlined above, if the cost of such a license was less than US$200. We urge you to consider + the historical significance of the UNIX operating system, + that the PDP-11 versions of UNIX are essentially obsolete, + that superior UNIX-like operating systems, libraries and applications are freely available in source code form, + that the source code to 6th Edition UNIX is publically available in printed form (Lion's Commentary on 6th Edition UNIX, Peer to Peer Communications, Inc.) and make personal-use non-disclosure source code and binaries licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available at a price which we can afford as individuals. The UNIX community has played an extremely important role in the development and success of the UNIX operating system. The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc., as owners of the UNIX operating system source, would be repaying the UNIX community in some measure by providing source licenses for these old versions of UNIX. Although you would not profit greatly from the licenses, you would earn the respect and appreciation from many people who helped make UNIX what it is today. Thank you for your time. Your response to our petition will be appreciated, and can be sent via Internet e-mail to Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au. Sincerely yours, The undersigned >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 2 10:21:15 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09864 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:20:22 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16859; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:21:15 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199707020021.KAA16859(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP11 To: crr(a)gil.com.au Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:21:15 +1000 (EST) Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199707020013.KAA08108(a)iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au> from "crr(a)gil.com.au" at "Jul 2, 97 10:13:49 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In atricle by crr(a)gil.com.au: > Hello Warren, > > Just a short note to introduce myself, Colin Riddel is my name, > I have just > saved from the scrap heap a PDP11 / 34 with 2 RK5 drives > and about 20 disks.. unfortunately the former owners of the system > wiped all contents from the disks. I would like to be able to > get a copy of UNIX for the PDP11, then fully restore the machime > I would apreciate any information that you can give me on > obtaining and setting up PDP unix on the beast > > I am a member of HUMBUG (home Unix machine Brisbane user group ) > and one of the system administrators at Global Info-Links (an ISP in > Ipswich Qld) > Colin Riddel Hi Colin, I saw you sign the petition, thanks. The problem is how to load the software onto the box! There are RK05 disk images of UNIX (v6 and v7) at ftp://minnie.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11-sims/Supnik_2.2d/ But how do we get them into the box? Do you have any boot disks for any OS (RSX, RT-11)? What about tape drives? I'll pass this onto our mailing list, maybe some more knowledgeable readers will be able to answer you. Alternatively, posting this to vmsnet.pdp-11 should get you an answers. Ciao, Warren >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 2 12:00:05 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10094 for <unixarc(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:59:08 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA17575 for unixarc(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:00:05 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:00:05 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199707020200.MAA17575(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> To: unixarc(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Petition SCO for PDP-11 UNIX Source Licenses Hello, You may have received email from me last week asking for ideas about lobbying SCO to make source licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. The feedback from the email was in favour of creating a petition which we would present to SCO. I mailed a draft petition to many of you and again got a favourable response. Therefore, I've set up a WWW petition for PDP-11 UNIX source licenses at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html. PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION!!! if you agree with the petition. PLEASE GET OTHER PEOPLE TO SIGN TOO!!! We need as many signatures as we can get. Pass the word around to other interested people you know of. If you filled in the PDP-11 UNIX source code survey on the same WWW server, your name has been automatically put on the petition, unless you disagreed with the petition's contents. Please email me if you want your name removed. You can re-sign the petition to add your Full Name; I'll tidy it up later. I'd like to get well over 100 names on the petition before I pass it to SCO. If you have contacts at SCO who we could send the petition, please email me! If you'd like to be put on a mailing list to be kept informed of the petition's progress, also email me. Hopefully, we will get a result from SCO. Thanks again, Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 2 12:05:23 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10113 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:04:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA17606 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:05:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199707020205.MAA17606(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP UNIX Src License Petition To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:05:23 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies if you've already got word of this; I've lost track of who I have & haven't emailed. There is a petition to sign to convince SCO to make Unix source licenses available at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html 160 signatures so far, about 120 culled from the survey I was running and 40 in the past 48 hours. Please sign if you want SCO to make licenses available! Informal feedback from SCO is good; Dion Johnson there thinks it looks reasonable & he will be our advocate at SCO. Thanks, Warren >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 16 09:38:59 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18522 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:38:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01410 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:39:00 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199707152339.JAA01410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Another Old PDP-11 UNIX Tape To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:38:59 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I've just tracked down another old tape with PDP-11 Unix stuff on it. It's in the UK. Anybody there care to chat with George & extract the bits from the tape so we can put it in the archive? ----- Forwarded message from George Coulouris ----- To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: George Coulouris <George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Subject: Re: PDP-11 UNIX Warren, I've had a 9-track tape reel in my bottom drawer for about 15 years. I no longer remember what is on it! It may contain the source of 'em' and a few other utilities that I wrote in the '70s. Unfortunately I have no convenient way to read it. If you are interested, I could try to find someone with a 9-track reel drive, or if you have one I could just send the tape to you. I'd be happy to liase with anyone who is willing to have a go at reading the tape. George ----- End of forwarded message from George Coulouris ----- Also, the source code petition has now got 290 signatures. I haven't heard anything from SCO since I passed it to them formally, except that they had received it and it was being passed to `the right people'. I'll keep updating the status page, hyperlinked to the petition itself, as things happen. The petition's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html. Quite a number of well-known people have signed. Both Andy Tan(n)enbaums, Steven Schultz, Richard Tobin, Bill Joy, Henry Spencer, Neil Groundwater, Dave Presotto, Andrew Hume, Peter Collinson, Greg Rose, Brian Redman, Peter Honeyman, Megan Gentry, Jim McKie, Margo Seltzer, John Mashey, Peter Salus, Ozalp Babaoglu, Keith Bostic, George Coulouris etc. Plus all the other individuals who have shown support. Cheers, Warren >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 23 13:36:12 1997 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02515 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:36:07 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01232 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:36:12 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199707230336.NAA01232(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: New PDP-11 UNIX Archive Additions To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:36:12 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, I've just received a couple of _huge_ tarballs from Keith Bostic with the following PDP-11 UNIX stuff: 1BSD 2.10BSD 2.79BSD 2.8BSD 2.9BSD 2BSD First 2BSD tape. 3BSD First 3BSD tape. pascal.2.0 Pascal distribution pascal.2.10 Pascal distribution 32V Documentors WorkBench. pdp.archive ??? pwb 3 slightly different & incomplete versions v6 6th Edition v6.compat ??? v7 7th Edition v7add The "40 changes" tape. v7m Follow-on release to V7 Due to space considerations (& a lack of time), I haven't been able to extract anything into the licensed UNIX archive that I run on henry. I'd also like to try and remove duplicates where possible. If you're interested in a particular thing from the tarballs, please email me and I'll extract the relevant sections. Also: 300+ signatures on the PDP-11 UNIX src license petition. I just sent a reminder email to SCO to see what they're doing with it. Cheers, Warren

28 years, 4 months

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7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd)

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

> From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> > Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ > To: wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au > > Warren, > > I'm not sure if the PUPS members would be interested, but I have > successfully been able to run the 7th Edition RL02 image that accompanies > Bob Supniks emulator on a real PDP-11/23+.Jim Carpenter (jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net) > deserves a special thanks for helping me work out a few problems in bringing > it up. If any other members of the group are interested in doing the same I > would be happy to help. Bob, I'm cc'ing this reply to the mailing list so that the others will get a copy. > As I understand the terms of the SCO license, this should be perfectly > legal so long as it is for non-commerical purposes. There doesn't seem > to be anything in the license that limits me to using an emulator. > Please correct me if you disagree. As far as I can see, you can do anything with the disk image as long as it's non-commercial. So I'm sure that it's perfectly legal. > > Performance is suprisingly good, especially considering that the 11/23+ > was no speed demon even by old PDP standards. And it's amazing - the > whole Unix system fits on a 10Mb pack with about 3.5Mb free! > > The contents of this disk image seem to be pretty limited, and I'm > interested in knowing if any of the missing components (e.g. man pages!!) > are available anywhere. I'm also interested to know if there are any V7 > kernels available with more devices installed. I've got a lot of hardware > on my 11/23, especially a TSV05 but also a RX02 and TU58, that this system > can't use. > Bob Armstrong Bob, firstly if you can write down the details of how you got the image installed & running on the 23+, and email it to the mailing list (oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) that'd be great, as I archive the mail. Secondly, I'm unsure of the copyright/legal status of the man pages. It would be good if they could be released publically. I might ask Bob Supnik if he has any ideas. Finally, many of the members of the PUPS mail list are covered by source code licenses, so if you can tell us what device you require, I'm sure someone can build a kernel for you. I wonder if it's legal to ship a kernel which has device drivers not in Bob Supnik's disk image?! Hope so! Cheers, Warren

28 years, 4 months

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PDP-11 (fwd)

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

----- Forwarded message from Don Kabuss ----- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:22:36 -0600 From: kabussdr(a)SLUVCA.SLU.EDU (Don Kabuss) Subject: PDP-11 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Hello Warren, My name is Don. I visited your webpage today about the "PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society". Although I'm not inclined to participate, I am however the proud owner of a DEC PDP-11/04. It is complete except for a dumb terminal/ keyboard. It is mounted in two 6 1/2 foot tall steel racks it includes a dual 8" floppy drives with unopened boxes of new 8" disks, one 12" cartridge removable hard drive with 6 cartridges, one 12" reel to reel mass storage tape drive, power supply, supportive hardware and all cabling. Also there is an 18" medium speed drum printer in a sound proof encloser. No it's not for sale. However, I would like to give it away. Obviously it is very heavy and there is no way I could ship it. I would like to know if there is a member of this Society somewhere in the mid-west ( close to St. Louis, Missouri,USA ) that might be interested in having it just for coming to get it? The unit was fully functional when I removed the dumb terminal to use in another application, so it's not just "junk". This unit is mine and not property of the University that I'm affiliated with. I hope this may serve a common interest. Thanks Don. ----- End of forwarded message from Don Kabuss -----

28 years, 4 months

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Weird TS05 gotcha

by Tom I Helbekkmo

I just wanted to share an interesting experience that might save someone else some time if the occasion should arise... I've got a Q4 cabinet with two BA23s in the middle, an RA81 below them and a TS05 tape station on top. It's had a KA630 (a MicroVAX II, that is) CPU running VAX/VMS, Ultrix and 4.3BSD-Reno before, and the TS05 has always behaved perfectly. Just recently, I reconfigured this box with a MicroPDP-11/73 (a great little system: two RD54s, twin RX50s, TK50 and TS05, DELQA, DHQ11 and the RA81), and was dismayed to find that my trusty old 9 track tape station no longer worked! After several, unsuccessful attempts to get some (too) old diagnostic software to work, I put the KA630 back in, and ran MDM, the MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor. The tape station checked out perfectly. Back in went the 11/73 -- sure enough, it didn't work. Experimenting showed that I could fsf, bsf rewind and stat the tape station with mt all I wanted, but I couldn't read nor write. The controller always gave an illegal address error, which the manual says is what happens when you use it in a 22 bit qbus while it's configured for 18 bit operation. Of course, that couldn't be for real, right? I mean, the KA630 is a 22 bit system, and it worked on that with several operating systems! Still, it doesn't hurt to check, so I pulled the controller. Yup, it was set to 18 bit mode. Flipped it to 22, turned on buffering at the same time -- and I now have a fast, dependable 1600bpi 9 track again! If anyone can explain how this thing worked in the first place, I'd appreciate it! (Oh, and if anyone has some hints for this youngster about the proper care and feeding of my TS05 as the years go by, that would come in very handy as well!) (Heck, while I'm asking all this, an RK05 with qbus controller and a few packs would be great, too, and would go real well with this old /23 I've got sitting here!) -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"

28 years, 4 months

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Simulator 2.2d release with demonstration software (fwd)

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

[You must read this! Warren] ----- Forwarded message from Bob Supnik ----- From: Bob Supnik <bob.supnik(a)ljo.dec.com> Subject: Simulator 2.2d release with demonstration software Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:56:40 -0500 This notice is being posted today in relevant Usenet conferences. Thanks for your help in reaching a major milestone! Computer History Simulators V2.2d: Release Notes V2.2d is a major release of the simulators for the Computer History project. It includes simulators for: - Data General Nova - Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-8 - Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 - Digital Equipment Corporation 18b PDP's (PDP-4, PDP-7, PDP-9, PDP-15) - IBM 1401 These simulators are freeware. They are intended for personal or educational use and are provided on an as-is basis. Support is not available, and commercial use is prohibited. See the documentation for debug status for each simulator. This release also includes demonstration software for the PDP-8, PDP-11, and Nova: - RDOS V7.5 for the Nova - OS/8 for the PDP-8 - UNIX V5, V6, and V7 for the PDP-11 The demonstration software is provided for personal, non-commercial use, under license from its current owners (Data General for RDOS, Digital Equipment Corporation for OS/8, and the Santa Cruz Operation for UNIX). Please be sure to read the license agreements before using or distributing the demonstration software. A copy of the appropriate license agreement(s) must be included with any copy of the demonstration software. I gratefully acknowledge the generous help and support of Data General Corporation, Digital Equipment Corporation, and the Santa Cruz Organization in making the demonstration software and supporting license agreements available. The simulator sources and documentation are contained in a compressed tar archive on the public FTP server ftp.digital.com: /pub/DEC/sim/sources/sim_2.2d.tar.Z The simulators have been tested under Digital UNIX, VAX VMS, Alpha VMS, and Intel Linux. A port to Windows 95/Windows NT is underway. Porting to other little-endian UNIX systems is straightforward, but porting to big-endian systems is not: data representations are endian dependent. The demonstration software and licenses are contained in multiple compressed tar archives on the public FTP server ftp.digital.com: /pub/DEC/sim/software/rdosswre.tar.Z - RDOS /pub/DEC/sim/software/os8swre.tar.Z - OS/8 /pub/DEC/sim/software/uv5swre.tar.Z - UNIX V5 /pub/DEC/sim/software/uv6swre.tar.Z - UNIX V6 /pub/DEC/sim/software/uv7swre.tar.Z - UNIX V7 (Very) cursory instructions for using the demonstration software are included in the simulator documentation. The simulator project includes many contributions. For a more detailed description of the simulator itself, and the many people who helped with it, please see the (forthcoming) December 96 issue of the Digital Technical Journal, which has an article on "Restoring Old Computers" by Max Burnet and Bob Supnik. YOU can contribute to the computer history project! The simulator is an open-ended framework, and contributions are welcome, such as: - further debuging of the existing simulators - additional peripherals for existing simulators - new software images for existing simulators - new simulators - terminal emulation routines for Windows 95/Windows NT - ports to other operating environments Please send your contributions to bob.supnik(a)ljo.dec.com. ----- End of forwarded message from Bob Supnik ----- >From Bob Supnik <bob.supnik(a)ljo.dec.com> Tue Dec 3 10:56:40 1996 Received: from rachael.franken.de (rachael.franken.de [193.175.24.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with SMTP id FAA19177; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 05:12:21 +1100 Received: from <hub-n.franken.de> by rachael.franken.de with cbsmtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #8) id m0vVLcd-000oLsC; Wed, 4 Dec 96 19:00 MET Received: from mbsks.UUCP by hub-n.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0vVL2G-000BzTC; Wed, 4 Dec 96 18:23 WET Received: by mbsks.franken.de (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0vVKxM-000NS0C; Wed, 4 Dec 96 18:18 MET Message-Id: <m0vVKxM-000NS0C(a)mbsks.franken.de> From: m(a)mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Subject: Unix onto my new PDP-11 To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (oldunix) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:17:59 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mahlzeit I have here a PDP-11 which was used in a X-ray-"defractometer". There was no Boot-disks or documentation. Hardware: 3HE-19"-case (with a label VAXstation 3200) with an on/off-switch and 6 buttons. 5,25"-FDD 3,5"-HDD (probably ST-506-type) Fujitsu Model M2227D2 Type B03B-4815-B104A#B On the side to the disk/floppy there are unused connectors: Fixed Disk 0 (2 con.) Fixed Disk 1 (2 con.) Removable Disk 1&2 (1 con.) It has 3 modules: quad-size from Mentec with 4 connectors (serial ports) quad-size from MDB with 4 unused connectors dual-size from Dilog (connected to disk and floppy) Software: It is installed RT-11FB V5.04D. The output from resorc/a is: ------------------------------------------------------------- RT-11FB (S) V05.04 D Booted from DU0:RT11FB USR is set SWAP EXIT is set SWAP KMON is set NOIND TT is set QUIET ERROR is set ERROR SL is set OFF EDIT is set EDIT KMON nesting depth is 3 PDP 11/73A Processor 512KB of memory Floating Point Microcode Extended Instruction Set (EIS) Memory Management Unit Cache Memory 50 Cycle System Clock Memory parity support FPU support Device Status CSR Vector(s) ------ ------ --- --------- SL Installed 000000 000 FW Not installed 177170 264 LD 131520 000000 000 DY Not installed 177170 264 VM 132472 177572 250 SP Installed 000000 110 XL Installed 176500 300 304 DL Not installed 174400 160 DU Resident 172150 154 LS Installed 176510 310 314 NL Installed 000000 000 TT (Resident) = LP DU (Resident) DU0 = SY MQ (Resident) LD (Loaded) LD0 = DK SL VM (Loaded) SP XL LS NL 5 free slots Job Name Console Level State Low High Impure --- ---- ------- ----- ----- --- ---- ------ 0 RESORC 0 0 Run 000000 131510 134576 No multi-terminal support Address Module Words ------- ------ ----- 160000 IOPAGE 4096. 155636 DU 561. 133220 RMON 4743. 132464 VM 174. 131512 LD 245. 001000 ..BG.. 22693. LD0 is DU0:USER.DSK[50068.] = DK LD4 is DU0:USER.DSK[50068.] LD7 is DU0:PW.DSK[3000.] ------------------------------------------------------------- I got somehow a M70>-Prompt (after a @-Prompt) and booted it with DU<Return>. Can I make somehow a bootable floppy-backup? Is it supported by V7 or another UNIX? How big is the harddisk? What device/size is the floppy? DK? Is it possible to read/write these floppies with a PC? Is it possible to make UNIX-boot/install-floppies with an emulator and install with the UNIX on this PDP-11? What did I forget to ask? Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside >From "Robert Armstrong" <rarmstro(a)telesensory.com> Tue Dec 10 09:40:01 1996 Received: from dolphin (dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.5]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with SMTP id JAA00108; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:01:12 +1100 Received: by dolphin (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA09361; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 08:59:56 +1100 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp7.netcom.com) by csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20100; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:15:54 +1100 Received: from telesens.UUCP by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id QAA19916; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:06:06 -0800 Received: by telesensory.com (UUPC/extended 1.12r) for wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:40:01 -0800 Message-Id: <32aca351.telesens(a)telesensory.com> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:40:01 -0800 From: "Robert Armstrong" <rarmstro(a)telesensory.com> To: wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PUPS Membership Content-Type: text Sender: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Microsoft Mail v3.0 (MAPI 1.0 Transport) IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note From: Armstrong, Robert To: 'wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au' Subject: PUPS Membership Date: 1996-12-09 15:36 Priority: 3 Message ID: C28C0656D851D0119D8400A02450680C Conversation ID: PUPS Membership ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Warren, I have a Micro-PDP 11/73 running 2_11BSD now, and a running 11/23+ system that I'd like to find a Unix for (currently it's running RT). The 11/23 lacks I&D space and therefore is unable to run 2_11BSD, and also it's severely handicapped because its largest disk a RL02. I also have a several other DEC non-Unix systems including a 11/730, a PDP-8/A, and too many VAXstation-2000s and 3100s to count. All run perfectly except the -8, which is my current project. I have a some UNIBUS and QBUS spares, and even a few OMNIBUS parts, and I'm always willing to trade with other collectors. I'm afraid I know very little about Unix, but I do have some experience with DEC hardware and would be happy to try and help out in this area. Please do not reply to this account - my home email address is bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us Thanks, Bob Armstrong

28 years, 5 months

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Results of PDP UNIX Source Questionnaire

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, The results of my PDP-11 UNIX source license quiz so far are available on the PUPS web page, http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ If you haven't filled out the questionnnaire, please do so, as it gives me more ammunition to convince SCO to make licenses available. Get your friends, family & household pets to fill it out too :-) Most of the results were as I expected, although less people were happy with the single-user idea that I thought would be. Cheers, Warren

28 years, 6 months

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PDP Unix Archive Down...

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, I accidentally shut down the PDP Unix ftp archive on henry.cs.adfa.oz.au yesterday, as it's my desktop PC and I temporarily forgot about its other uses. It should be back on again at 0000 GMT Monday. I've also got a new Pentium to replace the 486 which is henry, and I will cut over to the new machine sometime in the next two weeks, so if you are having any troubles ftp'ing stuff from this machine, please let me know. Cheers, Warren

28 years, 8 months

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UNIX for my 11/34A

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit OK. Now I have a RL01 image, which boots at least on the emu with the original rl1unix kernel. # mkfs /dev/rl1 9000 # dd if=/usr/mdec/rluboot of=/dev/rl1 count=1 # mount /dev/rl1 /mnt # df # rm -rf /usr/dicts /usr/src /usr/games /rkunix /usr/spool/uucppublic/ansi* # tar cf - .profile bin boot etc lib tmp usr | (cd mnt; tar xf -) # cp /rl1unix /mnt/unix # mkdir /mnt/mnt # mkdir /mnt/dev # cp /dev/makefile /mnt/dev # cd /mnt/dev # make # make rl # ln rl0 swap # cd /usr/sys/conf # cp rl1conf conf conf: remove last line (tm) m.h: uncomment "#define _1134" makefile: M = smch copied pk.p, stat.h and tty.h from other V7 source to /usr/sys/h # make unix # cp unix /mnt/nunix The selfmade kernel nunix doesn't boot. Did I something wrong? Should I adjust also other options in m.h or param.h to get better performance with 128kByte (not kWord) RAM? Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside

28 years, 8 months

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Re: UNIX for my 11/34A

by pnt103＠ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk

My V7 has RL drivers, and AFAIR they're on my distribution tape, which has a 1980 date sticker on it (I think; it's not to hand). My 11/23 only has RL02s on it, and it was running V7 fine this morning :-) Pete

28 years, 8 months

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Re: UNIX for my 11/34A

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit > V7 _initially_ did *not* have RL02 support. When we got our first V7 > tape in 1979 a RL02 driver was written locally in ~79 or 80. So > unless someone added the RL0? support to V7 and submitted the updated > images to the archives it's doubtful RL devices can be used with V7. The V7 are RL02 images and include the RL drivers. > > One thing to note, the RL02 kernel comes with swap at the end of the > > RL02. You will need to rebuild a kernel so that the location and size of the > Quite right. The 'swaplo' global must agree with the partition table > wired into the driver or the system will end up swapping over top of > the root filesystem. *ick* ;) rl1conf: rl root rl 0 swap rl 0 swplo 9000 nswap 1240 tm I assume that means that the filesystem ist 9000 block long and the swap 1240 blocks. (-> mkfs /dev/rl1 9000) Until now I have the RL02 cleaned up, so it fits on a RL01, and made a filesystem on the RL01. Now I'm fighting with the emu. Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside

28 years, 8 months

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UNIX for my 11/34A

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit My name is Matthias Bruestle and I'm new on this mailing list. I'm collecting old computers and have until now 34. I have a 11/34A with 128kB RAM, DL11-W and 2 RL01. I want to install UNIX on her. Because there are no RL01 disk images which I can use directly, I want to prepare one with a PDP-11 emulator. I got V6 to boot with the Supnik emulator, but noticed than that V6 has no support for RL01 drives. Does someone have RL01 drivers for V6 or must I use V7? The last step would be to download the image over the serial line. Is there allready a programm for RT-11SJ V4.00 which does this? Thanks for your help endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside

28 years, 8 months

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Re: PDP Unix - how to load?

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

In atricle by Danny R. Brown: > 3.If Keith has not yet found a way to transfer files I have a set of > PD tape utilities which work quite well. As I recall I installed > TSXTCP (from shop.pdp.kent.edu) and FTP'd the files from my PC to my > 11/73, built the tapes with the aforementioned utilities (TK-50, but > I believe most any style will do), booted up and installed everything > in about three days. > > I'm sure that I posted a pointer to the ftp site for the tape utils > on this sig, or maybe e-mailed them to someone who requested. I'm > still not home much but drop me a line and I'll dig out the notes, > names, and etc., in the next few days... > cheers! Danny, I just looked thru the archive and, no, you didn't post any detais. So, would you drop a line with the info when you get back. Thanks again! Warren

28 years, 9 months

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PDP Unix - how to load?

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

I'm forwarding this on from Keith Huff, who wants to know how to load the PDP UNIX images from henry onto a machine. As I've never used a PDP OS apart from Unix, can someone pass on trick and techniques to get tape or disk images from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au onto a PDP-11? Thanks, Warren ----- Forwarded message from kshuff(a)fast.net ----- From: kshuff(a)fast.net Subject: PDP Unix Hi Warren, I have visited your FTP site and have a question. The only piece of equipment I have connected to the net is a PC, so upon downloading a copy of Unix, how do I go about getting it over to the PDP, or do I have to have it connected to the net. If the latter, could you give me some guidance on how this would be accomplished. Thanks again. -Keith S. Huff ----- End of forwarded message from kshuff(a)fast.net ----- >From "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Fri Aug 23 13:38:27 1996 Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with SMTP id NAA07876; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:42:50 +0959 Received: from crl14.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA23923 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>); Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:41:44 -0700 Received: by crl14.crl.com id AA13195 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:38:28 -0700 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:38:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au> Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP Unix - how to load? In-Reply-To: <9608120357.AA22166@dolphin> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960822202356.12906A-100000(a)crl14.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Warren Toomey wrote: > Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:57:30 +1000 (EST) > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au> > To: PDP Unix Preservation <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: PDP Unix - how to load? > > I'm forwarding this on from Keith Huff, who wants to know how to load the > PDP UNIX images from henry onto a machine. As I've never used a PDP OS > apart from Unix, can someone pass on trick and techniques to get tape or > disk images from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au onto a PDP-11? > > Thanks, > Warren > ----- Forwarded message from kshuff(a)fast.net ----- > From: kshuff(a)fast.net > Subject: PDP Unix > Hi Warren, > > I have visited your FTP site and have a question. The only piece of > equipment I have connected to the net is a PC, so upon downloading a copy of > Unix, how do I go about getting it over to the PDP, or do I have to have it > connected to the net. If the latter, could you give me some guidance on how > this would be accomplished. Thanks again. > > -Keith S. Huff > ----- End of forwarded message from kshuff(a)fast.net ----- > Keith, Warren, et al..... 1.Sorry that I've been away from this SIG after such a hectic beginning last winter. I got sucked up in the Olympics here in Atlanta and am only now returning to "normal" life. You boys down under might invest in a good pair of hip boots- its coming your way ;-) 2.Thanks to all of you for your help in getting me up and running. 3.If Keith has not yet found a way to transfer files I have a set of PD tape utilities which work quite well. As I recall I installed TSXTCP (from shop.pdp.kent.edu) and FTP'd the files from my PC to my 11/73, built the tapes with the aforementioned utilities (TK-50, but I believe most any style will do), booted up and installed everything in about three days. I'm sure that I posted a pointer to the ftp site for the tape utils on this sig, or maybe e-mailed them to someone who requested. I'm still not home much but drop me a line and I'll dig out the notes, names, and etc., in the next few days... cheers! ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * *************************************************************************

28 years, 9 months

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PDP UNIX Licenses: Status Report

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, In my continuing quest to find out if PDP-11 UNIX licenses are available and how to get them, I've been chatting with Mike Tilson, a VP at SCO. I include his email below, with permission. The summary is that SCO don't have any licenses for PDP-11 UNIX; if you want a license, you should join an organisation with an existing UNIX source license so as to be covered by it. Cheers, Warren From: Michael Tilson <mike(a)sco.COM> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix Licenses? [The question posed to Mike was: could cheap PDP UNIX licenses be make available to people who don't have licenses?] As a former PDP-11 UNIX Fifth Edition user and systems programmer I'd personally be pleased to see this happen. There are some obstacles. The UNIX intellectual property has great value (SCO gave up nearly 20% of its equity plus future cash payments to obtain it.) The intellectual property traces back in unbroken lineage to PDP-11 UNIX. Source licensing has always been very carefully managed, as this deals with the core of the intellectual property. Even when source was licensed to universities "for free" there was a large agreement signed by a university corporate authority, and the agreement had teeth in it. The Lions book was something we all wanted to see published, but it still took considerable careful legal review, and that was just to publish the kernel plus a limited set of device drivers. The full source code (utilities, libraries, compilers, etc.) would be a bigger matter. (Example: I believe the algorithms in the "diff" command for optimal differencing are still unequaled in other commercial systems, despite their age.) And the later the version (e.g. Seventh Edition rather than Sixth Edition) the more concerned we would be. When Dion Johnson raised this matter internally a while back I commented that I'd like to see it happen, but that I understood all of the above concerns. I wondered at that time whether the task of resurrecting this historical item wasn't something that could be done in cooperation with universities who already possessed the appropriate source licenses. Would that method work for you? I note that you appear to be associated with the right sort of institution. So in summary I'd like to see this happen, I'll be helpful if I can, and I would caution that the probability is considerably lower than for the Lions book. Dion has been doing a good job of representing your interests, by the way. It sounds like all the interested parties are today associated with institutions that would allow them the necessary access for this history project. I've sometimes thought that I'd like to have a PDP-11/45 running the old UNIX myself. (The hardware can no doubt be found in some scrapyard, the trick is floorspace and power of course. Seems like a lot of effort to get a computer with two orders of magnitude less capacity than my laptop computer... :-)) Please make sure everyone understands that in principle we'd like to be helpful, but we're not dealing with a dead product, we're dealing with an earlier version of what is today a very much alive and growing product -- an intellectual asset of extremely high value. This means everyone moves very cautiously, as intellectual property law can be a minefield. There is no doubt that a license with enough teeth could be written, and if we had such a license the purpose would not be to charge historians or hobbiests a lot of money. The real obstacle is the care and effort that must go into creating a licensing program, and I think the business reality is that we're unlikely to have enough idle cycles available to create the program for you. (Not my department, though -- maybe Dion will be able to push it through, who knows?) // Michael Tilson, CIO // SCO, +1-408-429-4889

28 years, 9 months

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Lions Book: Details from Peter Salus

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, Just got this information about the Lions commentary on v6 from Peter Salus: The ISBN for the Lions is (will be?) 1-57398-013-7. It will be $29.95 US. The distributor is International Thompson; the publisher is Peer-to-Peer Communications. Cheers, Warren

28 years, 9 months

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Got Museum RK Format

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, I browsed thru the blocks on my `Museum Format' v6 disk image, and after a bit of work found a nice comment from the writers of the code: /* * Optimized RK-11/RK03/RK05/disk driver * * Copyright (c) 1975, the Children's Museum. * * [...] In this * format, block 0 is in its standard place so that * boot programs can be put there; blocks 1 through * NHRKBLK (2435) are located beginning at block #2436, * all remaining blocks are between block 1 & 2435. the * effect of this mapping is to centralize disk head motion * about the center of the disk. * the optimization is ideal for those RK's * which serve as both root device and swap device. It * is less than ideal, although probably still an * improvement over traditional form, for RK's used * exclusively as mounted file systems. So, after a bit of dd(1)ing, I had my two Museum Format v6 disk images into a form which could be read with a normal v6 system. Cheers, Warren

28 years, 10 months

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Boston Museum RK Format?

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

Hi all, I've just been looking thru the old tapes I have here from v6 Unix, and I think I've got two RK disk images which were laid out with the RK driver from the Boston Children's Museum. An old email from Kevin Hill says that the inodes are in the middle of the pack, rather than at the beginning. However, I don't know enough about the scheme to try and decode the files from the disk image. If anybody can help me out, could they email me back. I've got a program called `grab' that can extract files from v6 images, and I'd like to modify it to get the files from these `museum' disk images. Re: the stuff from SCO, Dion at SCO is talking to the legal guys, but I haven't heard anything as yet. Thanks in advance! Warren

28 years, 10 months

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Re: Good News re PDP Unix Licensing

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

In atricle by Tom I Helbekkmo: > On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Warren Toomey wrote: > > Is there really any good reason for them to object to the distribution > of UNIXes prior to SVR1? Could there possibly be anything at all in > V7 and earlier that could in any way be damaging to SCO (or anyone > else who might buy UNIX from SCO) if it were freely distributed? If > I'm right in assuming that it couldn't possibly make a difference to > their bottom line, perhaps SCO could be convinced to formally release > these oldest versions of UNIX? I suggested to Dion that SCO would get kudos from the Unix community if they did. Haven't heard back from him yet (still Sunday there). > Does anyone know, by the way, what's happening with the Lions > commentaries? They're at the top of my "stuff I want to read" list, > and have been for quite some time now! I have a copy of the PostScript version which floated around the 'net a few years back. I'd be prepared to give it out on the solemn promise that people buy Lions' commentaries when they are published. I'll let you all know how I go with SCO. Cheers, Warren

28 years, 10 months

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Re: Good News re PDP Unix Licensing

by Johnny.Billquist＠emw.ericsson.se

> All, > I just received a very pleasing letter from Dion L. Johnson II, the > Product Manager at SCO, about the legal status of the PDP UNIXs. I've included > his email and my response below. If I can get a legally authorative statement > on paper from SCO, I'll pass it on to you all, especially Steven Schultz. Not that I wan't to sound pessimistic, but there are several miles between "would not mind", and "legally allowed". >From what I read into his letter, he's saying that he don't think SCO would take legal actions against us, but at the same time they won't probably make it officially legal. And your reply, hoping that they'll say that "Unix is legally owned by SCO, but freely distributable", is really reaching for the sky... :-) Anyway, keep trying, it would be very nice if they really did write such a paper. Johnny

28 years, 11 months

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Good News re PDP Unix Licensing

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, I just received a very pleasing letter from Dion L. Johnson II, the Product Manager at SCO, about the legal status of the PDP UNIXs. I've included his email and my response below. If I can get a legally authorative statement on paper from SCO, I'll pass it on to you all, especially Steven Schultz. Cheers, Warren In atricle by Dion: > > SCO owns the licensing rights all versions of the UNIX system, or > so our legal folks tell me. Now, of course there are many > derivative, licensed versions, and some of the holders of those > licenses have rights to sublicense. In the case of BSD > enhancements, the Berkeley additions are owned by the Regents of > the University of California, and I believe the UCB license terms > are well known. > > As for your friends who have rescued ancient PDP machines... I > am confident that SCO would cheerfully encourage them to run UNIX > on these antiques without any payment to us. I cant quite > officially give that permission myself, but I can speculate that > SCO certainly would not mind. > > So go for it. Does this help? > -Dion >Dion L. Johnson II - The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. dionj(a)sco.com >SCO Product Manager - Development Systems and Various Other Stuff >400 Encinal St. Santa Cruz, CA 95061 FAX: 408-427-5417 Voice: 408-427-7565 Dion, thanks very much for your email, in fact I'm ecstatic! I know this could be a tricky legal minefield, so if possible could SCO draft a letter (and run it past their lawyers) which sets out exactly what you said above. In particular, you said that ``SCO would cheerfully encourage them to run UNIX on these antiques without any payment to us''. Does this mean I can legally distribute the source code to the PDP versions of UNIX, and to anybody? or just to people who own PDP-11s. There are PDP-11 emulators available, so it is conceivable that people who don't even have a real PDP-11 might like to try UNIX out on these emulators. If to anybody, then I assume this means the source is legally owned by SCO but freely distributable? I really appreciate your offer of making these old versions of UNIX available, but given the legal status of the code to this point, I would like to cover myself with an officially blessed and signed document from SCO. Let me know what you can do, and many many thanks again for this! Cheers, Warren

28 years, 11 months

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Re: v6 tapes

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

In atricle by Jacob Ritorto: > Warren, > I have three 600' 9-track 800bpi tapes marked (in pen) UNIX V6 > 4000 blocks. One Source, one Object, one Documentation. I've tried > using ROLLIN to restore them, but it expects a filename, which I can't > find. I did do an RT11 dump of the first few blocks of the tapes, which > revealed an ascii 'd' as the first byte, then a series of decending > bytes. It didn't look like a file structure or a filename. All the > tapes had the same first block. I tried to boot the tapes directly on an > 11/34. No luck. I tried to DIR them from rt11, but, of course, rt > couldn't find any directory info. There's definately unix stuff on the > tapes--I saw it in the RT11 device dump. Dates in some of the source > files are around 1974 or 1976, if I recall correctly. > What do I need to do to get these tapes back onto disk and > running? I'm assuming they restore to RK05 disks because the labels say > 4000 blocks. I have 4 rk05 drives and lots of packs. BTW, the tape > drive I'm using is a TU10 with standard address and vector. > Your help would be greatly appreciated. > Jacob Ritorto Jacob, I'm passing this onto a bunch of PDP Unix people, as I don't have the hardware & RT11 experience to tell you how to install v6 from the tapes. Yes, the 3 tapes are RK05 pack images, I have on-line copies here if that can be of any help to you. Can you raw dump the tapes to RK05s using RT11? Can anybody help Jacob out here? We also have v7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD here. What hardware do you have? Best of luck, Warren Toomey

28 years, 11 months

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11/73 and UNIX?

by pwargo＠basenji.com

The recent 11/23 discussion got me wondering if anybody has seen an 11/73 running UNIX - I've got one with 3M RAM, and an RD52(?) (32M winchester...) -Pete, who has changed his address to pwargo(a)basenji.com (my own domain!) -Pete "I *still* want a vacation", Chandra "I love it here", Keegan "SUN!" and Spritzer "Let's go for *another* walk!" Rio Rancho, New Mexico, USA pwargo(a)basenji.com (a free system) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Mon Apr 8 00:30:04 1996 Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with SMTP id AAA19996; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:38:26 +1000 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id ac13158; 7 Apr 96 15:38 +0100 Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa26099; 7 Apr 96 15:32 +0100 Received: (from root@localhost) by falstaf.demon.co.uk (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA00403; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:30:04 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:30:04 +0100 (BST) From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: <199604071430.PAA00403(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pwargo(a)basenji.com Subject: Re: 11/73 and UNIX? Got one at home. It has only got 1.5MByte but in soldiers on. You will need more than an RD52, a 53 as a bare min and a 54 as ideal. I use 2*54s RObin >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Mon Apr 8 03:41:58 1996 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM [199.107.242.11]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with ESMTP id DAA20814; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:42:22 +1000 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA04105; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199604071741.KAA04105(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pwargo(a)basenji.com, robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: 11/73 and UNIX? > From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> > > Got one at home. It has only got 1.5MByte but in soldiers on. You will need > more than an RD52, a 53 as a bare min and a 54 as ideal. I use 2*54s Got two. A HP3724S 1.2GB SCSI drive works just fine <grin> Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com

29 years, 1 month

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Re: UNIX for 11/23 (fwd)

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

Forwarded message: Subject: Re: UNIX for 11/23 To: wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:40:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9603202323.AA23006@dolphin> from "Warren Toomey" at Mar 21, 96 09:23:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text > >In atricle by Bob Manners: >> >> Now, the 11/23 has 128Kw, a 10Mb RD51 winchester and an RX50 floppy. I >> need to get hold of a version of UNIX (pref. v7) The UNIX in question >> obviously needs to support the RD51. >> >> Does v7 support RD series drives? If not, what does? > >v7 doesn't support RDs (just looked thru the archive), and I don't know >of anything that does. You'd probably have to write your own device driver :-( I beleive Digital's MV7 (I think) does support RDs. It is mentioned in the 11/23+ Owners Manual. I'll have to check. I guess this version isn't in the archive ... Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Computer Museum: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html Also: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk "The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory" - Jello Biafra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Computer Museum: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html Also: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk "The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory" - Jello Biafra ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 2 months

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Re: UNIX for 11/23 (fwd)

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

Forwarded message: Subject: Re: UNIX for 11/23 To: sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:43:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199603202239.OAA28894(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 20, 96 02:39:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text What about Digital's MV7 (or whatever it was called). This is mentioned in the 11/23+ owners' manual as supported. Thus it must run on the 11/23+ and support RD series disks. It is basically Bell Labs version 7 I think. > Warren's correct. MSCP support did not enter the 'BSD' picture until > late 2.9BSD or early 2.10BSD. TMSCP support for tapes didn't come > about until early 2.11BSD when I "borrowed" the driver from 4.3BSD > (who had earlier borrowed it from Ultrix). OK. I guess 2.x BSD (x>=9) requires separate I+D space? That would rule out the 11/23+ I think. > It should be noted that the MSCP (and to a greater degree TMSCP) > is a *pig* - it's the largest driver in the system, rivaling the > TTY subsystem sizewise. Yes. I can believe that. Looks like writing my own driver would be no fun at all! > An 11/23 is already extremely cramped for address space even using > simpler/smaller drivers such as the RK, RL, etc. I seriously doubt > the MSCP driver could be smashed in to a 11/23 kernel and leave room > for too much else. The 11/23+ has plenty of address space (22 bit), but mine only has 128Kw ... Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Computer Museum: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html Also: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk "The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory" - Jello Biafra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Computer Museum: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html Also: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk "The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory" - Jello Biafra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Fri Mar 22 02:31:20 1996 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (root(a)WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM [199.107.242.11]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.13/8.3) with ESMTP id CAA02140; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 02:32:56 +0959 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA19050; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:31:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:31:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199603211631.IAA19050(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Subject: Re: UNIX for 11/23 (fwd) Robert - > I beleive Digital's MV7 (I think) does support RDs. It is mentioned in > the 11/23+ Owners Manual. I'll have to check. I guess this version > isn't in the archive ... True - Ultrix-11 (what MV7 was called later on) does have MSCP support in it. I've not looked at how they handle the rather prodigious data space requirements (~2kb per controller) yet. Cheers. Steven

29 years, 2 months

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UNIX for 11/23

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

Having met with storming success (thanks Warren) in getting UNIX v6 and v7 up and running on my 11/34, and having recently (well yesterday) acquired an 11/23+, I'd like to put UNIX on the latter. Now, the 11/23 has 128Kw, a 10Mb RD51 winchester and an RX50 floppy. I need to get hold of a version of UNIX (pref. v7) The UNIX in question obviously needs to support the RD51. In the case of the 11/34 I built a UNIX image under a PDP-11 emulator and KERMITed it to the 11/34. I plan to do the same in this case ... Any suggestions welcome. Does v7 support RD series drives? If not, what does? Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Computer Museum: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html Also: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk "The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory" - Jello Biafra ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 2 months

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Re: Happy New Year

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

In atricle by Milo Velimirovic: > > Hi, > > I'm still alive and well. Thanks for hte note. > > I have precious little time to spend with my pdp11's. I'm still looking for > a legal Unix to run on either my 11/34 or 11/44. In the meantime I make do > with a NeXT cube. > > If possible please make your paper publicly available. You can now get it at http://minnie/Seminars :-) I'm still working on licences. Warren

29 years, 3 months

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Happy New Year

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

Hi all, I thought I'd mail to the old unix list to see if you were all still alive & hope the new year goes well for you. It's been a quiet few months. I've not heard back from Keith Bostic about his archive. However, I'm presenting a paper about PDP Unixes at the local Australian Unix Users Group summer conference next week, should be fun. Cheers, Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au

29 years, 3 months

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What is lonex?

by Danny R. Brown

Greetings: I've been playing with the mail system. Mailing to root brings up can't find usr/lonex/xmail This in itself is not a problem, as I only tried this to see what would happen. However, I am curious as to what the lonex directory is (was). It does not appear in my listing of the contents of tape 2. Cheers! ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * ************************************************************************* >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Tue Dec 19 13:59:39 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id PAA16920; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:01:03 +1100 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id TAA04159; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 19:59:39 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 19:59:39 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199512190359.TAA04159(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: What is lonex? Hi - > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > Subject: What is lonex? LONEX _was_ "Laboratory Office Network EXperiment" - a project I worked on for many years (we started with V7) and which just ended a couple or three years ago. We used 11/44s and 70s right up till the end - by which point they were all running 2.11BSD. It was a really neat system - had a common user namespace (YP before there was YP;-)) amoungst all systems, a (for the time) spiffy text-mode menuing interface to shield users from the fact it was Unix and so on. > I've been playing with the mail system. Mailing to root brings up > can't find usr/lonex/xmail The sendmail.cf as distributed in the 'GENERIC' system kit wasn't cleaned up enough. That reference to a local mailer that I use should have been removed. Several things to note: 1) the sendmail.fc file does not exist - on purpose. You'll need to perform step 2 and then do a "/usr/lib/sendmail -bz" to freeze (pre-process for faster loading) the config file. 2) the sendmail.cf file is not suitable for use without customizing (filling in the domain name, relay system, etc). 3) The aliases database (/usr/lib/aliases.{dir,pag}) are not present, on purpose. You'll want to edit /usr/lib/aliases to suit local tastes and then do "/usr/lib/sendmail -bi" to create the dbm aliases database. > This in itself is not a problem, as I only tried this to see what would > happen. However, I am curious as to what the lonex directory is (was). It's a directory I keep local works of art such as the local mailer 'xmail' which knew the details about routing mail within the "Office Network" we ran. > It does not appear in my listing of the contents of tape 2. It shouldn't have been there at all. You should have something like: # Mlocal, P=/bin/mail, F=rlsDFMmn, S=10, R=20, A=mail -d $u Mlocal, P=/usr/lonex/bin/xmail, F=lsSDFMmn, S=10, R=20, A=xmail -f $g $u in sendmail.cf. Simply reverse the commented status of the two lines to be: Mlocal, P=/bin/mail, F=rlsDFMmn, S=10, R=20, A=mail -d $u # Mlocal, P=/usr/lonex/bin/xmail, F=lsSDFMmn, S=10, R=20, A=xmail -f $g $u And you'll be all set. Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com

29 years, 5 months

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version 7

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

I just thought I'd share a few more of my experiences with you in the hope that they may help someone out.... Over the weekend, I finally succeeded in ftping Tapes/Torsten/v7.gz - version 7 as an RL02 image. (International ftp to the UK is terrible at present!). I have no RL02, so I booted the image on Bob Supnic's pdp11 emulator, built a kernel to support both RL and RK05 drives and set about transferring the vital parts of the system to an RK05 image, with the kernel source, games and other non-essentials going to a second image. The two RK05 images are pretty full! I built kernels for the 11/40 (m40.o) and 11/34 (smch.o), to support just the RK05, and added a second DL-11 as previously discussed on this list. Kermiting the root image to an RK05 on my 11/34 was no trouble. My 11/34 will booth the m40.o image just fine, but the smch.o image caused much disk activity, but no console output. Version 7 thus can be persuaded to work on an 11/34a, with a single RK05. The second DL11 is recognised and works as expected. Version 7 seems significantly slower than version 6, when multi-user mode is entered. Thus, I think I'd recommend version 6 for a small system ... Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice This message brought to you from an entirely Microsoft free system. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 5 months

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Re: fsck tips

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

As Warren says, you don't want to sync after an fsck run has made changes to the disk. Simply turn off and reboot. One gotcha Warren omitted was the process /etc/update, which is usually started at boot-time from /etc/rc. This process does a sync every 30 secs automatically. Before fscking a live filesystem, kill update first! If fsck finds anything wrong, shutdown immediately without a sync. Of course, fscking unmounted filesystems is far safer, but not always possible for the root partition ... Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice This message brought to you from an entirely Microsoft free system. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 5 months

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Fsck for v7

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

Hmm, while we're on the topic of fsck, the RL02 image of 7th Edition that was given to me by Torsten Hippe had an fsck for v7 filesystems, but no source code. Torsten did say that Johnny Billquist had the original tape, but Johnny says he's not in a position to read the tape. Anyway, does anybody have the source code to this or another v7 fsck? Any clues as to who wrote it etc.? Thanks, Warren

29 years, 5 months

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Re: Undefined Inconsistency

by Steven M. Schultz

Howdy - > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > > When I do a "reboot" the system declares that /dev/ra0f has an > undefined inconsistency (during fsck). It tells me to run fsck > manually, then aborts before starting the daemons. What aborts? If by 'abort' you mean that the process of the system coming up ceases and you get dropped into a single user shell then that's exactly what should happen. > I have dchecked, ichecked and fscked /dev/ra0f, and it seems to > be a happy partition. Ok - at that point if a manual "fsck /dev/rra0f" (and you should be using the raw (rra) form of the device) works, then all you need to do is hit a ^D and the system will finish coming up to a multi user state. Hmmm - I think we'll need some more information before hazarding a guess as to what's not working right. The contents of /etc/fstab and the current disklabel would be good starting points. > ra0f starts on an even cylinder boundary. It has one file which > occupies some 54% of the space on it. > reboot -f brings everything up normally. Well, yes, it will - by bypassing all filesystem checks. Usually that'll work ok - but it's not something to do after a crash or a power failure. > this boo-boo. Looking through the man pages did not point me in > any yet untried direction. I did encounter a 'bad block' on /dev/ra0d, Hmmm - a bad block? Shouldn't be related to anything in ra0f unless you've accidentally created overlapping partitions. If that were the case though I'd expect massive and widespread corruption. What was the error when the bad block was encountered? If this is an MSCP disk you'll need to find the MicroPDP-11 Formatter and see if it will revector the bad sector for you (BSD MSCP drivers can not do this - probably just as well because I've heard it's fiendishly difficult and if you get it wrong you've hosed your drive). Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com

29 years, 5 months

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v6 with two DL11s now works ... silly me!

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

I've recently been deluging the list with problems and obseervations concerning the v6 kernel. Most recently, I discussed the putchar() routine in /usr/sys/ken/prf.c, which prints messages only if the front panel switches are set appropriately. I modified that routine by commenting out an if, so the messages would always be sent to the console regardless. Having edited prf.c and rebuilt the kernel, I was suprised to find no change in the behavior on bootup. Comparing the 'new' and 'old' kernels (with cmp) showed them to be the same. The problem then is that the kernel was not being rebuilt correctly. Accordingly I removed all .o files, and the files /usr/sys/lib1 and /usr/sys/lib2. I rebuilt again. The lib1 and lib2 files do not build directly from the /usr/sys/run script, but rather use "ar r" to replace the files in the libraries with the newly-built object files. Thus I had to manually build the libraries. NOTE: it is important to get the object files into the library in the correct order -- I simply copied the order as for the distributed files... I remember using tsort and lorder for Minix to determine library component ordering, but I forget how that works ;) Having rebuilt everything, not only did the messages print, but also the second KL11 magically worked. Thus what I had been doing all along was OK, but the kernel was not being properly built using all the new object files. Summary - to set up a second DL11 (configured as the first "local" interface): 1) ed /usr/sys/dmr/kl.c changing NKL11 to 2 2) modify /usr/sys/run to call mkconf with the additional parameter: 1kl 3) Bob, so to speak, is your uncle. Be sure everyhing is rebuilt. I wonder if there is a bug in "ar r", whereby certain files fail to be inserted into the library, so that old versions persist. Using the "ar rv" verbose option may be wise ... Hope this info is useful to those mad enough to want to use v6 ;) Thanks for all your help. Next project --- port the v7 shell to v6. Hmmmmmmmmm. Bob -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "I'd rather stay a child and keep my self respect, if being an adult means being like you" Jello Biafra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Thu Dec 7 11:31:36 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id MAA18472; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:41:59 +1059 Received: from crl14.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA27551 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>); Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:40:00 -0800 Received: by crl14.crl.com id AA00417 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:31:37 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:31:36 -0800 (PST) From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Undefined Inconsistency Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951206171925.116A-100000(a)crl14.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings: When I do a "reboot" the system declares that /dev/ra0f has an undefined inconsistency (during fsck). It tells me to run fsck manually, then aborts before starting the daemons. I have dchecked, ichecked and fscked /dev/ra0f, and it seems to be a happy partition. ra0f starts on an even cylinder boundary. It has one file which occupies some 54% of the space on it. reboot -f brings everything up normally. reboot worked at least twice without finding any faults prior to this boo-boo. Looking through the man pages did not point me in any yet untried direction. I did encounter a 'bad block' on /dev/ra0d, the /usr partition, while doing a make clean in usr/src/sys, but this turned out to be bogus, and did not involve ra0f. Coincidence or ? All hints appreciated... ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * *************************************************************************

29 years, 5 months

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v6 kernel stuff again ...

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

I've found out the reason for the non-printing printf's. The code in prf.c only actually outputs to the console if the contents of the switch register are non-zero... the code in question is the function putchar() in /usr/sys/ken/prf.c Still can't get the second DL11 going though ;) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "There's more to life than books you know, but not much more" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 5 months

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Still trying v6 build for multiple DL11s ...

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

OK, I'm still attempting kernel builds of v6 to support my 2nd DL11-W. Thanks to everyone who's given me advice so far -- sadly it doesn't work yet ... I have two DL11-Ws, one as the console (CSR=0177560, VEC=0060), one as the first local interface (CSR=0176500, VEC=0300). Under RT11, I'm able to use both interfaces without trouble (using CONSOL.MAC to switch from one to the other, since I haven't SYSGENed for multi-terminal support). Thus I know the hardware works and is correctly configured. According to the docs in /usr/docs/start, all I need do to get support for the second DL11-W is edit /usr/sys/dmt/kl.c to increase NKL11 from 1 to 2. (As far as the KL/DL driver is concerned the only difference between the two types of interface is the base addresses, and it happens to be configured so that the first KL11 other than the console will have a CSR of 0176500, so I choose that one.) I can then rebuild everything and run /usr/sys/conf/mkconf. At the mkconf prompt I enter "rk", and "1kl", as stated in the docs. /usr/sys/conf/c.c and /usr/sys/conf/l.s are built. Inspection of l.s suggests that the correct interrupt vector of 300 is used ... Inspection of c.c implies that the KL11 character devices will all have major device number 0. Looking at kl.c, it seems that: c 0 0 Console 177560 c 0 1 1st KL11 176500 c 0 2 2nd KL11 176510 ... c 0 3 1st DL11 175610 c 0 4 2nd DL11 etc. 175620 I then finish building the kernel and boot from it --- no errors. Creating the character devices as shown, I get: echo fred >/dev/tty0 (the console) works fine echo fred >/dev/tty1 (1st DL11) gives ... /dev/tty1: cannot create So I'm back to square one. As a test I set NKL11 and NDL11 to 4 and ran mkconf with rk and 8kl. Still doesn't work. What am I doing wrong? I'm out of ideas ... Another interesting thing caught my eye as I was looking at the docs. Apparently, the system should print out memory size as it boots. Looking at /usr/sys/ken/main.c, I can see a whole bunch of "printf"s which print out a copyright message and memory details. Nothing is actually displayed on the console during boot! _main is called from m40.s, and printf is a function defined within the kernel code itself (of course ;) Any ideas? Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "There's more to life than books you know, but not much more" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 5 months

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Building 2.11BSD...Huzzah!

by Danny R. Brown

1. That little doc you sent out, Steven, made my day. 2. I got your note on the updates. Thanks again. 3. BSD2.11 is now running fine with a modified kernel. At this point it is my pleasure to give you this Bug Report (or, what do I do now?) a: The Netnix burps at link time. It says: ............. long list of modules...uipc_ustteq.o d.netnix.o Undefined: _arpresolve _arpwhohas _arpinput It continues to build, but does issue a stop 1 (ignored) message. At boot time netnix generates a bad magick number and fails to load. I made the minimum number of modifications to the SYSYTEM file to install the net. Questions: Where do I look for the abovementioned symbols? Do I have to run Netnix to go multi-user? Unrelated questions: Will a DZV-11 (four line mux) work in place of DZ-11? In my experience the Unibus and Q-Buss versions of this board are 100% software compatible, but I'm failing to get a second terminal going... Now, the Real Doozie... I have, to date, been unable to make any of the Games work. The message is always "<name> not found". I tried worm, backgammon, wump, fortune, others from the games directory. Binary dumps show what looks like valid data in these files. Spooky, huh? The Saga Continues... ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * ************************************************************************* >From "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Mon Dec 4 12:04:49 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id NAA12449; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:18:14 +1100 Received: from crl12.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA02592 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:10:36 -0800 Received: by crl12.crl.com id AA21511 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:04:49 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:04:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Building BSD2.11 Huzzah! #2 Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951203180007.21469A(a)crl12.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings! In my earlier I asked a question about DZ vs. DZV11 support. I am glad to note that the distributed Kermit works quite happily on /dev/tty0, the first line on the DZV-11. I still can't log on to that line, but the night is young. Cheers, D.Brown ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * ************************************************************************* >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Mon Dec 4 16:06:03 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id RAA12900; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:14:35 +1100 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id WAA10558; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:06:03 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:06:03 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199512040606.WAA10558(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: Building BSD2.11 Huzzah! #2 Greetings - > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > In my earlier I asked a question about DZ vs. DZV11 support. I am > glad to note that the distributed Kermit works quite happily on > /dev/tty0, the first line on the DZV-11. > I still can't log on to that line, but the night is young. You have to enable a getty on the port before you can log in on it. Edit /etc/ttys, adding if needed a tty00 line. There are numerous examples in the file - it should be pretty easy to figure out what to add or change. Then you need to tell 'init' about the change by doing a "kill -HUP 1". NOTE: ports are NOT bidirectional - if you're going to enable logins on a line you won't be able to kermit _out_. And vice versa, if you're going to kermit out you'll need to disable logins on that line. Yes it'd be nice to have bidirectional ports - but someone keeps stealing my copious supply of free time ;-) Steven >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Mon Dec 4 16:01:18 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id RAA12884; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:03:43 +1100 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id WAA10542; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:01:18 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:01:18 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199512040601.WAA10542(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: Building 2.11BSD...Huzzah! Hi - > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > > 1. That little doc you sent out, Steven, made my day. > 2. I got your note on the updates. Thanks again. You're welcome. > a: The Netnix burps at link time. It says: > ............. long list of modules...uipc_ustteq.o d.netnix.o > Undefined: > _arpresolve > _arpwhohas > _arpinput I wager you forgot to select the 'NETHER' option in your kernel config file. Setting NETHER to 1 brings in the ARP modules. > It continues to build, but does issue a stop 1 (ignored) message. Hmmm, - the 'netbind' process gives an error about undefined symbols. It sounds like that was ignored. That's the signal not to run the kernel. > At boot time netnix generates a bad magick number and fails to > load. I made the minimum number of modifications to the SYSYTEM That's because the netnix image was not successfully loaded - the linker left the header set to something other than a valid a.out header. > Questions: Where do I look for the abovementioned symbols? > Do I have to run Netnix to go multi-user? In your kernel config file make sure that 'NETHER' is set to 1. You could go multi user but you'd likely see a number of errors as programs try to use sockets to communicate. Best to have a valid kernel+netnix image set before going multiuser. > Unrelated questions: Will a DZV-11 (four line mux) work in place > of DZ-11? In my experience the Unibus and Q-Buss versions of this It should. Just don't try to use ports 4,5,6, or 7 that a DZ-11\ would have. > I have, to date, been unable to make any of the Games work. The message > is always "<name> not found". I tried worm, backgammon, wump, fortune, sigh. Did you put /usr/games into your search path? The games are not in /usr/bin or /usr/ucb with the system programs. Try putting /usr/games in your PATH (or simply typing /usr/games/robots). Good Luck. Steven

29 years, 5 months

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Re: Compiling 2.11 - also 2.9BSD

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

In atricle by Steven M. Schultz: > Kernels are a special case of overlaid program (user mode programs > may be overlaid too but have less restrictive size rules). The > BASE segment (non-overlaid portion) may be up to 56kb (57344) bytes > in size. Each of the 15 (maximum) overlays (OV1 thru OV15) may be > up to 8kb (8192) bytes. Firstly, thanks to Steven for a great email. Yes, add it to the docs NOW before you forget! Secondly, most of what Steven said also applies to 2.9BSD, because it also uses overlays. However, v6 and v7 do not use overlays, so you can't use these techniques with them. Ciao, Warren >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Sat Dec 2 16:03:57 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id RAA08737; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:04:04 +1100 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id WAA18663; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:03:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:03:57 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199512020603.WAA18663(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Compiling 2.11 - also 2.9BSD Hello - > From: wkt(a)dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) > > In article by Steven M. Schultz: > > Kernels are a special case of overlaid program (user mode programs > > may be overlaid too but have less restrictive size rules). The > > BASE segment (non-overlaid portion) may be up to 56kb (57344) bytes > > in size. Each of the 15 (maximum) overlays (OV1 thru OV15) may be > > Firstly, thanks to Steven for a great email. Yes, add it to the docs NOW > before you forget! Secondly, most of what Steven said also applies to > 2.9BSD, because it also uses overlays. However, v6 and v7 do not use You're quite welcome. I should have had another sentence in the paragraph above: the kernel overlays must be between 48kb and 56kb. 56 is the max, but the kernel also has a minimum BASE size of 48kb (but this is all too easy to achieve ;-)). Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Mon Dec 4 05:30:55 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id GAA11449; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 06:32:19 +1100 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id LAA07500; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:30:55 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:30:55 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199512031930.LAA07500(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk, sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: Followup to compiling BSD2.11 w/Deqna Hi Robin - > From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> > > Hi Steve, > The most recent version (Rev 280) will build GENERIC fine but previous ones > didn't. The makefile required tweaking. Maybe all he needs is the last few > patches. That is most likely what happened - I'd made some changes to the kernel just before creating the Rev 277 images (which is what was entered into Warren's archive) and didn't double check that the GENERIC kernel would build correctly. I don't believe I've mentioned it on this mailing list yet but the complete collection of 2.11BSD patches/updates are available via anonymous FTP to the host FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM in the directory /pub/2.11BSD. There have been 4 updates released recently: 278 thru 281. Cheers. Steven >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sun Dec 3 23:36:18 1995 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id AAA11045; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:40:40 +1100 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by relay-4.mail.demon.net id msg.ad18368; 3 Dec 95 13:38 GMT Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk by relay-3.mail.demon.net id sg.aa13167; 3 Dec 95 13:37 GMT Received: (from robin@localhost) by falstaf.demon.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA00267; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:36:18 GMT Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:36:18 GMT From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: <199512031336.NAA00267(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: Followup to compiling BSD2.11 w/Deqna X-SMTP-Posting-Host: falstaf.demon.co.uk [Sun, 3 Dec 95 13:37:29 GMT] X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Sun, 3 Dec 95 13:38:32 GMT] Hi Steve, The most recent version (Rev 280) will build the GENERIC fine but previous ones didn't. The makefile required tweaking. Maybe all he needs is the last few patches. Cheers Robin >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sun Dec 3 23:34:28 1995 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id AAA11043; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:38:03 +1100 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by relay-4.mail.demon.net id sg.an16194; 3 Dec 95 13:36 GMT Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk by relay-3.mail.demon.net id g.aa12803; 3 Dec 95 13:35 GMT Received: (from robin@localhost) by falstaf.demon.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA00261; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:34:28 GMT Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:34:28 GMT From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: <199512031334.NAA00261(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: Compiling BSD2.11 w/DEQNA support X-SMTP-Posting-Host: falstaf.demon.co.uk [Sun, 3 Dec 95 13:35:31 GMT] X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Sun, 3 Dec 95 13:36:25 GMT] Hi, Well I havn't tried your mix but a DEQNA fits ok. What you need to do is do a size on the unix file that has been generated and workout which overlays are blowing the loader. If you add the size of the base code and any overlay together they can't be more than 64k. Then just move things between overlays and base until they work. You don't have to delete the modules that you don't want, they don't add anything. Good luck, it can be tricky but it does work after you have pushed a few modules around. Robin

29 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

Serial lines and v6 ...

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

Having given up trying to work out why v6 runs on my /34a, and v5 doesn't, I've turned my mind to the problem of trying to get a second DL11 up and running so I can use a terminal as well as my trusty teletype. I've set up a second DL11 on CSR address 176500, vector 300. This device is set for 96008N1, for what it's worth, and works just fine under RT11. I rebuilt the v6 kernel to enable a second DL11 interface. I have no guide to the source, so all this is based on my guesswork. Needless to say, it doesn't work, and I'm now out of ideas: Modified /usr/sys/dmr/kl.c, the KL/DL-11 driver source. I'm assured that the KL11 is an ancient serial interface ... Extract from said file ... /* base address */ #define KLADDR 0177560 /* console */ #define KLBASE 0176500 /* kl and dl11-a */ #define DLBASE 0175610 /* dl-e */ #define NKL11 1 #define NDL11 0 #define DSRDY 02 #define RDRENB 01 I simply changed the number of KL11's from one to two: #define NKL11 2 A further comment in the code says: * set up minor 0 to address KLADDR * set up minor 1 thru NKL11-1 to address from KLBASE * set up minor NKL11 on to addresss from DLBASE What this is saying is that minor 0 will be 0177560 (my console, which works fine), minor 1 will be 0176500 (which should be my second DL11). The code even does what the comment says ... ;) So I rebuild the kernel, reboot. Now, /etc/mknod /dev/tty1 c 0 1 makes the device, and echo Hi >/dev/tty1 gives: /dev/tty1: cannot create What is up? Naturally if I set up a login for that terminal by editing /etc/ttys, the process loops and causes a great deal of disk thrashing. Something is clearly up with the configuration of the device drivers here ... Does anyone know how I'm supposed to do this properly? Advice and guidance would be much appreciated ... ********************************************************************* On a completely different note, would someone be so kind as to give me the source for a very small Bourne shell and accompanying utilities (/bin/test etc...) that I could port to v6 without too much difficulty? ********************************************************************* Thanks, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "Wall Street or Crack Dealer Avenue, the last routes left to the American Dream" - Jello Biafra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Sat Dec 2 00:03:50 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id BAA07165; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 01:12:02 +1100 Received: from crl10.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA20411 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>); Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:10:08 -0800 Received: by crl10.crl.com id AA04477 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:03:51 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:03:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Followup to compiling BSD2.11 w/Deqna Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951201055825.4424A-100000(a)crl10.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Uh, sorry... I rebuilt the unmodified GENERIC kernal. It also terminates abnormally, same point, same message. I'm going to sleep for a while and then go out and buy another Unix book. ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * ************************************************************************* >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Sat Dec 2 14:05:36 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id PAA08538; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:13:32 +1100 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id UAA17751; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:05:36 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:05:36 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199512020405.UAA17751(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: Followup to compiling BSD2.11 w/Deqna Hello - > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > Subject: Followup to compiling BSD2.11 w/Deqna > > > Uh, sorry... I rebuilt the unmodified GENERIC kernal. It also terminates > abnormally, same point, same message. I'm going to sleep for a while > and then go out and buy another Unix book. That is strange. The GENERIC kernel should build with no problems - efforts were made to keep the Make.* files in /sys/conf in sync with the GENERIC system. Alas, it sounds like I didn't keep the template Makefiles current enough ;-( I doubt there are any books out there that know anything about overlays - it's a a lost art from what I've seen. I'll follow up with a mini tutorial on how to build a kernel. One note for now: it is 99.999% certain that after configuring a non-GENERIC kernel you will get a size error from the linker and you will have to adjust the overlay layout in your kernel build directory. Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com

29 years, 5 months

2
1
0 0

Compiling BSD2.11 w/DEQNA support

by Danny R. Brown

Greetings: All I did was add 1 DEQNA, 3 DLV's (total 4), 1 DLV. Has anyone tried this? The Makefile proceeds without errors until the final (massive) link run. Then it says too big for type 431 and exits code 2. I tried playing with Makefile, deleted some modules, like the rk, which I do not have, and moved a couple around. Same result. Obviously I'm new at this. Any assistance appreciated. ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * *************************************************************************

29 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

v5, v6 on /34

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

Having got past the emulator stage now (and having had my RK05 fitted with new heads after a _spectacular_ crash), I've been setting to the task of resurecting UNIX on the system. Thanks to John Wilson's excellent KSERVE Kermit server for RT11 I've been able to transfer v5 and v6 disk images to RK05. v6 boots just fine, and runs without any real drama. v5, much to my suprise, does not ... First off, my hardware is: 11/34a (no fpp, no cache) 124K word (248Kb) MOS 2 x DL11-W RX11 RK11D 1 x RK05 1 x RX01 v5 boots to the '@' prompt. Entering the kernel name at this prompt (this is the kernel for the RK05, obviously), causes a great deal of disk activity - far more than for v6, in fact. The disk activity stops, but no login prompt is presented. The processor is not halted, but is executing a relatively tight loop. Under emulation (using Bob Supnic's pdp11 emulator), v6 ran fine, but v5 caused TRAPS every so often. It occurs to me that the behaviour I've seen on the real 11/34 corresponds to a trap observed using the emulator. The emulator can be 'continued' after a trap and all is well. Since the 11/34 doesn't actually halt, but merely sits in a tight loop, I can't see how to proceed. Question is, is what I'm seeing a kernel panic? Since nothing is output to the tty, after the '@' prompt, it may be that the kernel doesn't like the look of my DL11 configuration? Alternatively, everything may be AOK, and running, except that no login prompt is produced on the tty. Interestingly UNIX causes a UNIBUS reset as it finishes booting. This is evidenced by the clattering of the RX01. Naturally it's not necessary for me to get v5 going, since v6 is fine, but it would be extremely interesting to find out what is going on. v7 seems to give a great deal of TRAPs on the emualtor, so maybe that would not like the real hardware either judging from current observations. What do people think about this? Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice This message brought to you from an entirely Microsoft free system. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 5 months

2
1
0 0

mknod device numbers

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

First off, thanks to all the people who gave me info for the rk? and rrk? devices. That now works. I now come to the question of tty devices. On v5 and v6, the single terminal device which is set up is /dev/tty8 (c 0 0). This suggests to me that the system is build with a DZ11 (or similar) as tty0 to tty7. Am I correct in this assumption? My system has a pair of DL11s, and one of them works happily as tty8. I'd like to get the second interface up and running. I also have a DZ11, if that is any help. (The second DL11 is set up at present and works with RT11 using the CONSOL.MAC mechanism to switch ttys. I can't remember the CSR/VEC, but it is the RT11 default for a second DL11). Question is: ------------ o What is the device numbering (major/minor) for a second DL11? (and what CSR/VEC should it have?)? Or need I rebuild the system for support of a second DL11? o Second, is the DZ11 supported by default, and, if so, what CSR/VEC should I set, and what are the device major and minor numbers? Cheers once again, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 288762 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice This message brought to you from an entirely Microsoft free system. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

PDP Unix - Job Control

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

While I was hacking away at a tcsh-like shell for Minix (a 7th Edition clone for IBM ATs), I came up with this truly bizarre method of job control. It even works! Warren Seventh Edition Job Control Job control can be achieved under early versions of Unix, such as Seventh Edition, by using the ptrace(2) system call in a manner not intended by its designers. Ptrace() was designed to allow a parent process to trace the excution of a child process, stopping the child under certain conditions, examining or modifying the contents of the child's memory, and restarting the child. The stopping/restarting abilities of ptrace() can be used to provide job control. To permit a child process to be stopped, it must inform the parent that it wants its execution to be traced, which it does by ptrace(0,0,0,0). Fortunately, this can be done after the fork() and before the exec() in the shell. When a traced process is executing, it is stopped under the following conditions: + the process receives a signal, or + the process exec()s If the shell is wait()ing on the child, it will be informed that the child has stopped, and can determine the signal that caused the process to stop (SIGTRAP in the case that the process exec()d). It is then able, using ptrace() with various arguments, to terminate or restart the process. At the same time, the shell can also deliver the signal to the restarted process, or not deliver the signal (see the manual for ptrace(2)). Seventh Edition job control, thus, is not so much a matter of stopping a process when requested to by the user, as ensuring that the process is always restarted, except when the user wants it to stop. Restarting stopped processes is straightforward. Stopping a running foreground process, however, is difficult, as there is no terminal key that, when pressed, will inform the shell to stop the process; indeed, the shell is most likely blocked wait()ing for the process to terminate. Two keys that do affect the execution of a foreground process are `int' (usually ^C or DEL), which sends a SIGINT to the process, and `quit' (usually ^\), which sends a SIGQUIT to the process. The latter cannot be caught or ignored by the process, and the delivery of SIGQUIT causes the process to terminate, usually with a core dump. However, when a process is being traced, pending signals are not delivered; instead, the process is stopped, and the parent informed about the pending signal. The parent can choose to terminate or restart the process, delivering or ignoring the signal as described above. Therefore, with ^C being frequently used, and ^\ rarely used, it is possible to reinterpret the meaning of ^\ and SIGQUIT to mean ``stop the process''. The SIGQUIT from ^\ is never delivered by the shell, but all other signals (including the SIGINT from ^C) are delivered. Users can then re-bind the `quit' key with stty(1) to be the more traditional `stop' key, ^Z.

29 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

New version of Apout simulator

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, It looks like this old PDP unix mailing list is going well, from all the questions & answers going past. Does anybody know of software to archive, catalogue, search and retrieve mail archives via the Web? My v7 a.out simulator is now working pretty well. I still can't run /usr/games/chess, but I can compile a kernel from scratch using v7 cc, and I can also compile the /usr/bin programs using v7 cc. The latest version is available at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/apout2.1beta.tar.gz P.S If you know of anybody else who would like to join the mailing list, please let them know about it. The more people we have helping each other out, the better. Cheers, Warren

29 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

mknod device nnumbers (again)

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

First off, thanks to all the people who gave me info for the rk? and rrk? devices. That now works. I now come to the question of tty devices. On v5 and v6, the single terminal device which is set up is /dev/tty8 (c 0 0). This suggests to me that the system is build with a DZ11 (or similar) as tty0 to tty7. Am I correct in this assumption? My system has a pair of DL11s, and one of them works happily as tty8. I'd like to get the second interface up and running. I also have a DZ11, if that is any help. (The second DL11 is set up at present and works with RT11 using the CONSOL.MAC mechanism to switch ttys. I can't remember the CSR/VEC, but it is the RT11 default for a second DL11). Question is: ------------ What is the device numbering (major/minor) for a second DL11? (and what CSR/VEC should it have?)? Or need I rebuild the system for support of a second DL11? Second, is the DZ11 supported by default, and, if so, what CSR/VEC should I set, and what are the device major and minor numbers? Cheers once again, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 246561 x 162 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory" - Jello Biafra ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

a.out simulator: PDP test progs?

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, I am still bashing away at my v7 a.out simulator, available at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/apout_2.1.tar.gz. I'm having a *$(&(#(@ of a time getting it to work 100% correctly. At the moment, I can compile 30 to 40% of the programs in /usr/src/cmd. It seems that the assember isn't being simulated correctly. Nearly all the other programs work fine. Does anybody have any PDP-11 asm programs (preferably v7 Unix .s files) that give the user mode a damn good flogging, and catch instructions and addressing modes that are not working correctly :-) Thanks all, Warren >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)esi.COM.AU> Tue Nov 21 21:49:00 1995 Received: from eram.esi.com.au (dave@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id WAA01901; Tue, 21 Nov 1995 22:46:42 +1100 Received: (from dave@localhost) by eram.esi.com.au (8.6.12/ESI-HUB-2.0) id WAA10767; Tue, 21 Nov 1995 22:49:01 +1100 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 22:49:00 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)esi.COM.AU> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: mknod device numbers In-Reply-To: <9511202219.AA13088@dolphin> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951121224148.10757A-100000(a)eram.esi.com.au> X-Witty-Saying: "Mobius strip - see other side for instructions" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Warren Toomey wrote: > Nobody, not even Dennis Ritchie, knows how to get a license for any of these. > Hopefully, when the Unix source finishes its current migration to SCO and HP, > we can ask them for an answer. Ah yes, the classic Catch-22... "How do I do this?" "You need a licence." "How do I get a licence?" "Nobody knows." With apologies to Milo Minderbinder... And in the meantime. those of us who can't quite lay our hands upon that piece of paper will just have to wait until Something Can Be Done. -- Dave Horsfall (VK2KFU) | dave(a)esi.com.au | VK2KFU @ VK2DAA.NSW.AUS.OC | PGP 2.6 Opinions expressed are mine. | D8 15 71 F9 26 C8 63 40 5E 63 5C 65 FC A0 22 99 >From "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Wed Nov 22 16:06:51 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id RAA04567; Wed, 22 Nov 1995 17:12:03 +1100 Received: from crl12.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA21753 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>); Tue, 21 Nov 1995 22:10:07 -0800 Received: by crl12.crl.com id AA02825 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Tue, 21 Nov 1995 22:06:51 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 22:06:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951121214923.2266B-100000(a)crl12.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings: Woe is me. I have been trying to resurrect Unix (BSD) on my venerable PDP-11/73. It had an RL02, which has gone west. It is running RT-11/TSX off an RD-54, and I would much like to run BSD2.11 instead, for several reasons. Now, I have several components of 2.11, and I'm trying to build a bootable TK50 tape to install from. The problem is that I cannot seem to assemble the tape files onto the tape using RT-11. It has no 'dd' facility. At least, I thought it did, but every left-handed syntax variation I have tried has resulted in "You can't do that" -type errors, so I have given up. This is really a simple problem. I would steal another RL02 if I could build the tape from BSD2.9, but it doesn't support MSCP. So what I need is either: 1. Someone who knows the secret to doing an addressable variable- block-length transfer to a TMSCP device with RT-11; or 2. A bootable RL02 image of 2.11, wwhich would be a feat; or 3.A bootable RD5X image of same; or 4.A TK50, preferably the distribution tape. (Yes, I put eggs in my beer). All leads appreciated. I *do* have surplus Q-bus hardware (except for RL02 drives). Cheers! BTW- how do I subscribe to this mailing list? ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * ************************************************************************* >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Wed Nov 22 17:04:20 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id SAA04683; Wed, 22 Nov 1995 18:05:23 +1100 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id XAA12504; Tue, 21 Nov 1995 23:04:20 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 23:04:20 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199511220704.XAA12504(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sysyphus(a)crl.com Danny - > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > > Now, I have several components of 2.11, and I'm trying to build a > bootable TK50 tape to install from. The problem is that I cannot Hmmm - does RT-11 have the ability/utilities to write 512 byte records "bits as is" to tape? No labeling, no nothing. > seem to assemble the tape files onto the tape using RT-11. It has > no 'dd' facility. At least, I thought it did, but every left-handed > syntax variation I have tried has resulted in "You can't do that" Can you, using RT-11 do the equivalent of: cat mtboot mtboot boot > file dd if=file of=tapedrive bs=512 Basically what you want to do is have two copies of the tapeboot block followed immediately by the boot program written to tape using 512 byte records. Perhaps catenating the data together into 1 temp file first would help and then write that file out all at one time. Once you have that data on tape you have a bootable TK50. The other images (mkfs, restor, etc) can be put on separate tapes if need be and loaded one at a time. That will require some interpolation of the setup/installation documents but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. > This is really a simple problem. I would steal another RL02 if I could > build the tape from BSD2.9, but it doesn't support MSCP. So what I Or TMSCP ;-( > 4.A TK50, preferably the distribution tape. > (Yes, I put eggs in my beer). Bletch (to eggs in beer) ;-) TK50 tapes are excrutiatingly (sp) time consuming to write - I'm not sure where the problem is (other than the TK50 being about as smart and fast as a rock). Reading them isn't too bad, but to write a full 2.11 kit on TK50 took around 7 hours the last time I did it on a 11/73. > BTW- how do I subscribe to this mailing list? Drop a line to Warren Toomey (wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au) Cheers and good luck. Steven >From "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Thu Nov 23 11:17:39 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id MAA06264; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 12:26:57 +1059 Received: from crl11.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA29097 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>); Wed, 22 Nov 1995 17:25:08 -0800 Received: by crl11.crl.com id AA28493 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Wed, 22 Nov 1995 17:17:40 -0800 Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 17:17:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199511220704.XAA12504(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951122170747.28165A-100000(a)crl11.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Danny - > > > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > > > > Now, I have several components of 2.11, and I'm trying to build a > > bootable TK50 tape to install from. The problem is that I cannot > > Hmmm - does RT-11 have the ability/utilities to write 512 byte > records "bits as is" to tape? No labeling, no nothing. ------- snip ------ > Can you, using RT-11 do the equivalent of: > > cat mtboot mtboot boot > file > dd if=file of=tapedrive bs=512 > First, I want to complement you on the excellent docs for 2.11BSD. Second, I want to flame the people at DEC who decided that the TK-50 MUST have a directory of some sort, and that various commands which will work with other mag-tape devices will NOT work on the TK-50 (under RT-11). I am now going to plan B. I am going to scrounge up a proper reel- to -reel magtape. Anybody know where I can find one ? :=) ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * ************************************************************************* >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Thu Nov 23 17:55:16 1995 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id TAA06791; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 19:10:56 +1059 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by relay-4.mail.demon.net id sg.ac28016; 23 Nov 95 8:09 GMT Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk by relay-3.mail.demon.net id sg.aa25017; 23 Nov 95 8:07 GMT Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 07:55:16 GMT From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <143(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> To: sysyphus(a)crl.com, "Steven M. Schultz"@falstaf.demon.co.uk Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Re: your mail X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d X-User: Alpha Test Version Of FI-Mail, DisWin 1.5C:\WINSOCK\WINDIS X-SMTP-Posting-Host: falstaf.demon.co.uk [Thu, 23 Nov 95 8:07:33 GMT] X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Thu, 23 Nov 95 8:09:33 GMT] > First, I want to complement you on the excellent docs for 2.11BSD. Agreed, they are excellent, Steven did a wonderful job of continuing and enhancing the docs that were completed for 2.10. They originally enabled me to do a complete install, never having done one for anything other than RSX and with zero UNIX experience. SO again, well done Steven. > > Second, I want to flame the people at DEC who decided that the > TK-50 MUST have a directory of some sort, and that various commands > which will work with other mag-tape devices will NOT work on the > TK-50 (under RT-11). Can you not write to the TK50 using system calls?. What you need to do is to write a utility that does "raw" byte by byte writes to the tape. I can't believe that this can't be done. If this can be done then images could be written to the tape exactly as they appear on a standard 2.11 distribution which could help you out. Failing that, where are you?. Could one of the people close by who have 2.11 cut you a TK50?. Cheers Robin -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Robin Birch EMail robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Thu Nov 23 18:25:13 1995 Received: from sunic.sunet.se by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id TAA06805; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 19:25:22 +1100 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id JAA13839; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 09:25:15 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA21643; Thu, 23 Nov 95 09:25:14 +0100 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 9:25:13 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE To: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com>, oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 1995 17:17:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.817115113.bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> >On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > >> Danny - >> >> > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> >> > >> > Now, I have several components of 2.11, and I'm trying to build a >> > bootable TK50 tape to install from. The problem is that I cannot >> >> Hmmm - does RT-11 have the ability/utilities to write 512 byte >> records "bits as is" to tape? No labeling, no nothing. > ------- snip ------ >> Can you, using RT-11 do the equivalent of: >> >> cat mtboot mtboot boot > file >> dd if=file of=tapedrive bs=512 >> > First, I want to complement you on the excellent docs for 2.11BSD. > > Second, I want to flame the people at DEC who decided that the > TK-50 MUST have a directory of some sort, and that various commands > which will work with other mag-tape devices will NOT work on the > TK-50 (under RT-11). > I am now going to plan B. I am going to scrounge up a proper reel- > to -reel magtape. > Anybody know where I can find one ? :=) I have a TU77 here in Sweden... :-) And maybe Megan can answer for that "stupidity"...? :-) Johnny >From "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Mon Nov 27 15:45:23 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id QAA00979; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 16:57:04 +1100 Received: from crl14.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA03371 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 21:55:08 -0800 Received: by crl14.crl.com id AA17836 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Sun, 26 Nov 1995 21:45:23 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 21:45:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: BSD211 Tape building Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951126212950.17682A-100000(a)crl14.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings: I'm getting there. Now that I have a working(??) drive, more trouble. The file size/# of records/block sizea aren't matching. bytes, 512 -byte Tape file Docs- #records, size PC RT11disk blocks 0 mtboot 1 512 512 1 boot 14 512 32462 64 1 disklabel * 23@ 512 or 1024 36191 71 2 mkfs 28 1024 31727 62 3 restor 27 1024 34066 67 4 icheck 26 1024 31356 62 * disklabel was quoted as two different bs in two different places. I really think that my gunzipping is kosher- I do it in the PC prior to ethernet-ing it to the PDP with no errors, and in fact I unzipped one file on my unix host and beamed it down. It was the same. Anyway boot is too big or restor is to small, or something. Any ideas whatis going on here? Merry Christmas! ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * ************************************************************************* >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Mon Nov 27 17:09:29 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id SAA01218; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 18:10:55 +1059 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id XAA21408; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:09:29 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:09:29 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199511270709.XAA21408(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: BSD211 Tape building Hi - > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > > Greetings: > The file size/# of records/block sizea aren't matching. I'm not sure what you mean by "not matching" - the sizes you list below are correct. 'boot' is 32462 bytes, 'disklabel' is 36191 bytes, 'mkfs' is indeed 31727, and so on. > Tape file Docs- #records, size PC RT11disk blocks > 0 mtboot 1 512 512 1 > boot 14 512 32462 64 > 1 disklabel * 23@ 512 or 1024 36191 71 > 2 mkfs 28 1024 31727 62 > 3 restor 27 1024 34066 67 > 4 icheck 26 1024 31356 62 > > * disklabel was quoted as two different bs in two different places. ARRGH! That's a typo in the setup documents. Sorry 'bout that. I'll updated the master copies and post a patch in comp.bugs.2bsd soon. ALL of the executable programs (disklabel, icheck, mkfs, restor) must be blocked at 1024 bytes per record on the tape. > I really think that my gunzipping is kosher- I do it in the PC Yep - it looks like the gunzip went ok - the byte sizes look correct. > Anyway boot is too big or restor is to small, or something. Any ideas > whatis going on here? You lost me there - what is too big or too small about them? The record counts mentioned in the setup documents are examples - the counts were accurate at one time, but then if a bug was fixed or a feature added to boot or restor the number of records would change slightly. The various programs change size over time and the documents are not updated if the record sizes change a little bit. Oh - you need to have 2 copies of the 'mtboot' file at the front of the tape. Why (I hear you ask)? Some boot roms actually read the 2nd copy! The format of a boot tape is: mtboot mtboot boot <TM> disklabel <TM> mkfs <TM> restor <TM> icheck <TM> <TM> = Tape Mark. the first file (with mtboot,mtboot,boot) is blocked at 512 bytes, all the other executables are blocked at 1024 (ignore the typo in the setup docs). Good Luck! Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com

29 years, 6 months

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Re: mknod device numbers

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

In atricle by Milo Velimirovic 31 Wing 785-8030: > > BTW, is there anywhere one can get a "legal license" to run V6, V7, 2.XBSD on > my pdp11/34's and 11/44? Nobody, not even Dennis Ritchie, knows how to get a license for any of these. Hopefully, when the Unix source finishes its current migration to SCO and HP, we can ask them for an answer. P.S Back from holidays, the machine minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au died (out of swap) on Saturday, and I've just rebooted her, so the mailing list is back up. I've also moved 2.11BSD into the ftp archive on henry.cs.adfa.oz.au. Thanks to Steven Schultz for the copy. Cheers, Warren

29 years, 6 months

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11/34 with RK05 emulation ??

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

My 11/34 is currently down awaiting replacement of an RK05 head which crashed rather painfully on Monday (the 13th !). In the meantime, I'm trying to sort out a new UNIX image for it, using an emulator on the PC. I have an 11/73 emulator for UNIX (Linux) with RK05s, and an 11/34 emulator (E11) for DOS, which looks great, but doesn't support RK05 yet. The 11/73 emulator runs the v5 and v6 images nicely. The question is, will these images run on a *real* 11/34 without a floating point board? The /73 and /34 MMUs are significantly different I believe. Looking at the v6 docs, the system is claimed to run on the 11/40, /45 and /70, but the /34 was yet to be created at that time, so there is no information about that! I'd be very grateful of someone could either tell me of a /34 emulator with RK05 image support, or confirm if v5/v6/v7 UNIX will run on: 11/34a 128Kw 1xRK05 no floating point no sep I+D (I guess) Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 246561 x 162 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "There's more to life than books you know, but not much more" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 6 months

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mknod device numbers

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

v5 and v6 UNIX seem to have very few device files in /dev as distributed. Inparticular, I need to set up the device entries for my RK05 drives, /dev/rk0 and /dev/rrk0 etc. Does anyone know the major and minor numbers offhand, or know the source well enough to know where to find them? I've grepped the source to no avail ... Cheers, Bob -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 246561 x 162 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "I'd rather stay a child and keep my self respect, if being an adult means being like you" Jello Biafra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Tom I Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Nov 16 01:35:23 1995 Received: from Norway.EU.net by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id DAA28676; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 03:44:26 +1100 Received: by Norway.EU.net with UUCP id AA08831 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4/EUnet/NO for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:44:06 +0100 Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA13129; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:35:24 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:35:23 +0100 (MET) From: Tom I Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> To: Bob Manners <rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk> Cc: OldUnix MailingList <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: mknod device numbers In-Reply-To: <m0tFeu2-00000EC(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: <Pine.NEB.3.91.951115163146.12873C-100000(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Bob Manners wrote: > v5 and v6 UNIX seem to have very few device files in /dev as > distributed. Inparticular, I need to set up the device entries for my > RK05 drives, /dev/rk0 and /dev/rrk0 etc. This works for me, with v6: # chdir /dev # ls -l total 0 crw--w--w- 2 root 0, 0 Nov 7 21:14 console crw-rw-r-- 1 bin 8, 1 May 14 1975 kmem crw-rw-r-- 1 bin 8, 0 May 14 1975 mem crw-rw-rw- 1 bin 8, 2 May 14 1975 null brw-rw-rw- 1 root 0, 0 Oct 10 1975 rk0 brw-rw-rw- 1 root 0, 1 Oct 10 1975 rk1 brw-rw-rw- 1 root 0, 2 Oct 10 1975 rk2 brw-rw-rw- 1 root 0, 3 Oct 10 1975 rk3 crw-rw-rw- 1 root 9, 0 Nov 7 01:19 rrk0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root 9, 1 Nov 7 01:19 rrk1 crw-rw-rw- 1 root 9, 2 Nov 7 01:19 rrk2 crw-rw-rw- 1 root 9, 3 Nov 7 01:19 rrk3 crw--w--w- 2 root 0, 0 Nov 7 21:14 tty8 Protection could be better, of course. :-) -tih -- Tom Ivar Helbekkmo tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO >From Milo Velimirovic 31 Wing 785-8030 <milov(a)fingers.acs.uwlax.edu> Thu Nov 16 03:22:22 1995 Received: from fingers.acs.uwlax.edu by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id EAA28815; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 04:22:44 +1100 Received: by fingers.acs.uwlax.edu; id AA02396; NX5.67d/42; Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:22:22 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:22:22 -0600 From: Milo Velimirovic 31 Wing 785-8030 <milov(a)fingers.acs.uwlax.edu> Message-Id: <9511151722.AA02396(a)fingers.acs.uwlax.edu> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100.RR) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100.RR) To: Tom I Helbekkmo <tih(a)hamartun.priv.no> Subject: Re: mknod device numbers Cc: OldUnix MailingList <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Reply-To: Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu Hi, All of this is very installation specific. The major/minor numbers in the device inodes need to correspond exactly to the entries in the devtab structure in the kernel. This is probably something that can be divined by running nm on the kernel, /unix ? (All this is from memory, my annotated V6 kernel listing is buried at home right now.) But, I'd be surprised to see a V6 distribution that didn't have the rk drivers built in. Another thing to watch out for is the rk driver, er, device names/numbers that interleaved a file system across multiple drives. BTW, is there anywhere one can get a "legal license" to run V6, V7, 2.XBSD on my pdp11/34's and 11/44? --Milo --- Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu> Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 Information Technology, Operations and Networking University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W Begin forwarded message: > > Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:35:23 +0100 (MET) > From: Tom I Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> > To: Bob Manners <rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk> > Cc: OldUnix MailingList <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Re: mknod device numbers > In-Reply-To: <m0tFeu2-00000EC(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Bob Manners wrote: > > > v5 and v6 UNIX seem to have very few device files in /dev as > > distributed. Inparticular, I need to set up the device entries for my > > RK05 drives, /dev/rk0 and /dev/rrk0 etc. > > This works for me, with v6: > > # chdir /dev > # ls -l > total 0 > crw--w--w- 2 root 0, 0 Nov 7 21:14 console > crw-rw-r-- 1 bin 8, 1 May 14 1975 kmem > crw-rw-r-- 1 bin 8, 0 May 14 1975 mem > crw-rw-rw- 1 bin 8, 2 May 14 1975 null > brw-rw-rw- 1 root 0, 0 Oct 10 1975 rk0 > brw-rw-rw- 1 root 0, 1 Oct 10 1975 rk1 > brw-rw-rw- 1 root 0, 2 Oct 10 1975 rk2 > brw-rw-rw- 1 root 0, 3 Oct 10 1975 rk3 > crw-rw-rw- 1 root 9, 0 Nov 7 01:19 rrk0 > crw-rw-rw- 1 root 9, 1 Nov 7 01:19 rrk1 > crw-rw-rw- 1 root 9, 2 Nov 7 01:19 rrk2 > crw-rw-rw- 1 root 9, 3 Nov 7 01:19 rrk3 > crw--w--w- 2 root 0, 0 Nov 7 21:14 tty8 > > Protection could be better, of course. :-) > > -tih > -- > Tom Ivar Helbekkmo > tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO > > >From Tom I Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Nov 16 06:57:59 1995 Received: from Norway.EU.net by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id IAA29309; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:03:54 +1059 Received: by Norway.EU.net with UUCP id AA29747 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4/EUnet/NO for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:03:25 +0100 Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA14351; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 21:58:00 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 21:57:59 +0100 (MET) From: Tom I Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> To: Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu Cc: OldUnix MailingList <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: mknod device numbers In-Reply-To: <9511151722.AA02396(a)fingers.acs.uwlax.edu> Message-Id: <Pine.NEB.3.91.951115213628.14251A-100000(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Milo Velimirovic 31 Wing 785-8030 wrote: > All of this is very installation specific. The major/minor numbers in the > device inodes need to correspond exactly to the entries in the devtab > structure in the kernel. True enough. The example I gave was correct for the V6 distribution that Ken Wellsch donated to the PUPS archive, and in which the file /usr/sys/conf/c.c (generated by 'mkconf' in the same directory) ends up with the following for the default "rkunix" with rk, tm and tc drivers enabled, as per the script /usr/sys/run: int (*bdevsw[])() { &nulldev, &nulldev, &rkstrategy, &rktab, /* rk */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, 0, /* rp */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, 0, /* rf */ &tmopen, &tmclose, &tmstrategy, &tmtab, /* tm */ &nulldev, &tcclose, &tcstrategy, &tctab, /* tc */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, 0, /* hs */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, 0, /* hp */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, 0, /* ht */ 0 }; int (*cdevsw[])() { &klopen, &klclose, &klread, &klwrite, &klsgtty, /* console */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* pc */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* lp */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* dc */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* dh */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* dp */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* dj */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* dn */ &nulldev, &nulldev, &mmread, &mmwrite, &nodev, /* mem */ &nulldev, &nulldev, &rkread, &rkwrite, &nodev, /* rk */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* rf */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* rp */ &tmopen, &tmclose, &tmread, &tmwrite, &nodev, /* tm */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* hs */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* hp */ &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, &nodev, /* ht */ 0 }; The major device numbers are the offsets (counting from 0) in these arrays, so rk has major 0 for the block device, 9 for the character device. I would assume that this holds for V6 in general -- if one were to add device drivers, one would surely extend these arrays at their ends, not insert anything into them... :-) -tih -- Tom Ivar Helbekkmo tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO

29 years, 6 months

1
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Re: your mail

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

In atricle by Johnny Billquist: > > >Comer, had a XINU v7 like os with tcp/ip for the LSI11. > >I have a dist of it, if anyone would like it in the archive? > > I think it should go there, anyway. What's its copyright? I'd love it, but I'll check with Doug first. P.S Rewrote Xinu on ass. code for an Apple ][, pretty sick, huh :-) See you all later, Warren >From "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> Wed Nov 15 12:02:41 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id NAA26336; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 13:12:09 +1100 Received: from crl4.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA16900 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>); Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:10:23 -0800 Received: by crl4.crl.com id AA26679 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:02:42 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:02:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: BSD for PDP-11/73 (fwd) Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951114180137.26434C-100000(a)crl4.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings: I've been trying to reinstall BSD2.9 on my 11/73. Problem is that I don't have any of the 'Classic' periperals anymore, like TU-10's or RL-02's. (I do have an RL02 emulation which works fine on RT-11 but won't go with BSD or TSX, and no docs on it at all). I have RX-50's, TK-50 and various DU's (RD52,53,54). If this were a perfect world I would have a TK-50 distribution tape to rebuild from. Does anybody know how I might be able to obtain? ************************************************************************* * A Personal Message from * BASILISK * * Danny R. Brown * "Try our other fine flavors!" * * ( sysyphus(a)crl.com ) * (404) 392-1691 * * Pager:(404)397-0516 * LYNC host mode * ************************************************************************* >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Wed Nov 15 16:13:24 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id RAA27353; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:17:42 +1100 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id WAA21716; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:13:24 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:13:24 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199511150613.WAA21716(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, sysyphus(a)crl.com Subject: Re: BSD for PDP-11/73 (fwd) Howdy - > From: "Danny R. Brown" <sysyphus(a)crl.com> > > I've been trying to reinstall BSD2.9 on my 11/73. Problem is that > I don't have any of the 'Classic' periperals anymore, like TU-10's > or RL-02's. (I do have an RL02 emulation which works fine on RT-11 The version of 2.9 I have dates from 1983 and lacks any support for TMSCP and MSCP. Support for those came later, the initial 2BSD driver is dated September 1985 and has a comment to the effect it's based on the 4.3BSD UDA driver, so 2.10 was likely the first inclusion of MSCP in a 2BSD kit. By the time of 2.10BSD the MSCP driver was definitely present. TMSCP support didn't make it in until 2.10.1BSD in 1989 - I know that for sure 'cause I did the port. > I have RX-50's, TK-50 and various DU's (RD52,53,54). If this were > a perfect world I would have a TK-50 distribution tape to rebuild from. TK-50 support didn't enter the picture until 1989 and it's a real beast of a driver (not to mention the bootblock and standalone driver). > Does anybody know how I might be able to obtain? Unless you can find some one with a later 2.9BSD system into which the MSCP driver was hacked (doubtful but who knows) I think you're out of luck. I seriously doubt you'll find a TK50 version of 2.9 since that wasn't added until 2.10.1BSD. On a /73 you're probably _much_ better off installing 2.11BSD (currently at rev #277) - it's due to enter the archive in Oz any day now (when Warren gets back from vacation). Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com

29 years, 6 months

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Which versions for 11/34 (Sep I+D space)

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

It has been suggested to me that since the 11/34a MMU doesn't support separate instruction and data space, certain versions of UNIX are not suitable. Does anyone out there have any idea which versions of UNIX require separate I+D space? Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 246561 x 162 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "Wall Street or Crack Dealer Avenue, the last routes left to the American Dream" - Jello Biafra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Fri Nov 10 20:23:55 1995 Received: from sunic.sunet.se by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id VAA02565; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 21:23:48 +1059 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id LAA05761; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 11:23:57 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA01251; Fri, 10 Nov 95 11:23:56 +0100 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 11:23:55 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE To: rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk (Bob Manners) Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (OldUnix MailingList) Subject: Re: Which versions for 11/34 (Sep I+D space) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Nov 1995 09:47:43 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.815999035.bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> > >It has been suggested to me that since the 11/34a MMU doesn't support >separate instruction and data space, certain versions of UNIX are not >suitable. Does anyone out there have any idea which versions of UNIX >require separate I+D space? Steve Schoultz is really the one to answer this question, but I seem to remember that BSD2.9 was the last version which worked on non-I/D-space systems. Johnny >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Fri Nov 10 20:23:03 1995 Received: from sunic.sunet.se by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id VAA02562; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 21:23:08 +1100 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id LAA05690; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 11:23:06 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA01202; Fri, 10 Nov 95 11:23:04 +0100 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 11:23:03 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE To: risner(a)heathers.stdio.com (James Risner) Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:19:36 EST Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.815998983.bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> >Comer, had a XINU v7 like os with tcp/ip for the LSI11. >I have a dist of it, if anyone would like it in the archive? I think it should go there, anyway. Johnny >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Sat Nov 11 02:46:36 1995 Received: from wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with ESMTP id DAA03199; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 03:46:56 +1059 Received: (from sms@localhost) by wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (8.6.10/8.6.12) id IAA18106; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:46:36 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:46:36 -0800 From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> Message-Id: <199511101646.IAA18106(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Subject: Re: Which versions for 11/34 (Sep I+D space) Bob - > From: rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk (Bob Manners) > > It has been suggested to me that since the 11/34a MMU doesn't support > separate instruction and data space, certain versions of UNIX are not > suitable. Does anyone out there have any idea which versions of UNIX > require separate I+D space? The last version of UNIX for the PDP11 which stood a chance of running on a non split machine was 2.9BSD. I'd expect it to be a very tight fit though because even on a split I/D machine we ended up overlaying the kernel (but then even V7 took overlays to fit - which we hacked into the kernel, at least in the environment here). A long long time ago I did squish a V7 system into an 11/23 - not a pretty sight, each command you ran caused the others on the system to be swapped out (do a "ls -l" and watch the shell get swapped, when the 'ls' finished then the shell would be swapped back in, etc.) V6 would be a better match for a non-split (248kb max) machine. By the time V7 was out the 11/70 was being used as the development platform and split I/D was becoming more and more necessary. Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com

29 years, 6 months

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by risner＠heathers.stdio.com

Comer, had a XINU v7 like os with tcp/ip for the LSI11. I have a dist of it, if anyone would like it in the archive? Risner

29 years, 6 months

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Disk image file --> RK05

by rjm＠swift.eng.ox.ac.uk

I posted this query to vmsnet.pdp-11 and alt.sys.pdp11, but following Warren's complaint that noone was talking on oldunix@minnie I'll ask you lot too ... I have on my PC hard disk a couple of rk05 disk images (from Warren's archive, naturally). Question is, how to get them onto a real rk05 ... the real PDP beats the emulator any day after all ... Naturally someone has workedout how to extract RK05 images to files to put on the archive site. I'm wondering if anyone has solved the reverse problem yet ... I could split up the file into moderate sized pieces (say 250k, RX01 sized bits), boot the PDP (RT11) off RX01 floppy, start kermit and transfer a file piece from the PC to the other PDP floppy drive. Then I could mount a fresh RK05 pack, format etc. and run some crafty code to write the file to the appropriate place on the 'raw' RK05 device. What do you think? Another correspondent mentioned that Kermit may be able to write to "raw" devices directly, allowing me to transfer the file all in one piece. I'm still waiting for confirmation of that -- seems a little unlikely to me, but I've been suprised before. My system is: 11/34a 1 x RK05 (2.5Mb removable type, RK05f I think - or is it j?) 1 x RX01 128Kword As you can see, backing store is in short supply ;) I'd sooner avoid writing too much Macro-11 at present, so if the problem is already solved, I'd love to know how ... Cheers, Bob. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Manners Osney Laboratory rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Dept of Engineering Science University of Oxford 01865 246561 x 162 Try: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk Linux - the only choice "Wall Street or Crack Dealer Avenue, the last routes left to the American Dream" - Jello Biafra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Fri Nov 10 04:11:19 1995 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.6.8/8.3) with SMTP id FAA29776; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 05:18:32 +1100 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by relay-4.mail.demon.net id sg.af11673; 9 Nov 95 18:16 GMT Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk by relay-3.mail.demon.net id sg.aa05149; 9 Nov 95 18:16 GMT Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 18:11:19 GMT From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <138(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Register of machines X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d X-User: Alpha Test Version Of FI-Mail, DisWin 1.5C:\WINSOCK\WINDIS Dear All, I have just had a note from someone who wants to get RK05 stuff on to his system but might be in a position where his current setup can't do it. This sort of stuff might be helped if people submitted a register of what kit they have. This could allow people in reasonable geographic location to help each other out. FOr instance, if some one had a unix system that an rk05 could be plugged into then they could do this and then give the rk05's back once they had the stuff copied over. To start it off. I have: 1*11/73 (1.5MByte) 2*RD54 1*DHV11 1*TK50 Running 2.11 BSD. I also have 1*Compaq 386 (486 Cyrix chip) running FreeBSD I live in Gloucestershire UK and am willing to help anybody in copying stuff that I can. I can get access to 0.5inch mag tape RA60 and RL02 if necessary. Cheers Robin -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Robin Birch EMail robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 years, 6 months

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Another PDP Unix program

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

Hi, Firstly, this old unix mailing list is damn quiet - I'm the only one talking. If you have any questions, ideas etc., mail them to oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. I'm away all of next week for a holiday, but will be back after that. Steven Schultz has promised 2.11BSD for the PDP Unix archive, and I'm also talking with Keith Bostic, as he has some stuff of interest. There is also a new PDP-11 simulator; this one runs a.out binaries directly, and passes the syscalls directly to the native operating system. You can pick it up at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/apout_2.1.tar.gz If anybody can fix the bugs mentioned in the README, please let me know! See you all again soon! Warren

29 years, 6 months

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Licensed PDP Unix Archive ftpable

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

All, A few quick notes about the PDP Unix archive effort. Dennis has sent in Fifth Edition, and both he and Ken Wellsch have sent in Sixth Edition. I've set up ftp access to the archive of licensed stuff. To get in, email me and I will send you back a username/password plus details. Cheers, Warren

29 years, 6 months

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by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

hello

29 years, 6 months

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Canonical answer about getting v6 & v7 source

by wkt＠csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au

Firstly, welcome to some new members of the old unix mailing list. If you don't get this email, please let me know ;-) I received an email back from Dennis Ritchie about getting a v6/v7 license (for those who don't have one). Here is his full reply: From: Dennis Ritchie To: Warren Toomey Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 00:40:55 EST Subject: canonical answer about Sixth and Seventh Edition So far as I can determine, AT&T doesn't think it has the right to issue new licenses for any Unix editions, and won't do so. Several years ago, the Unix IP was transferred to Unix Systems Laboratories, at first as a mostly-owned subsidiary; USL was then sold to Novell, and recently Novell agreed to sell its Unix business to SCO (and HP is partially involved). As of the end of October 1995 this last sale had not been consummated. In other words, AT&T is out of the Unix business, and has been for some time; any licenses will have to come from the current owner. But the "current owner" is itself in flux, and I doubt that even before the latest sale, Novell was quite geared up to issue Seventh Edition licenses; I have no useful suggestions about how to obtain one officially (it might be interesting to try). Official sources in AT&T have said that they have no objection to reissuance of Lions's commentaries and source publication of the Sixth Edition. Dennis So it doesn't look like good news at the moment; I guess we could approach SCO and HP, and ask about trying to get licenses from them. I'll see what I can do. A few other people mentioned that they would like to get stuff from the archive of early Unixes that I'm maintaining, and how to prove that they have a license. I have no idea how to do this, any suggestions? P.S There isn't a Sixth Edition in the archive as yet, can anyone send me a distribution or bootable disk image? Cheers all, Warren Toomey

29 years, 6 months

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Welcome to Old Unix maillist

by wkt＠dolphin.cs.adfa.oz.au

Hi, I've been merrily adding email addresses to the mail list on old Unixes and PDPs, so I thought I'd mail a message out to it in order to check that all the email addresses are correct. To send email to the mailing list, send to oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. There is a Web page which describes the efforts to save all this old stuff, and it is at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ I'm building up a list of short biographies/relevant skills for both mailing-list-only use, and to put on the public Web page. If you haven't sent me a resume yet, check out the PUPS Web pages and see what you can come up with. Several people have asked about obtaining a legal copy of early Unixes. I don't have an answer as yet, but I have mailed Dennis Ritchie, who seems to be the person with the best answers at the moment. A few other people have asked ``What Unix runs on what hardware?''. I'll try to build up a list for Sixth and Seventh Editions and 2.9BSD, and perhaps Steven Schultz can send in a list for 2.11BSD. Anyway, welcome to this old Unix maillist. If you have anything that can go into the PUPS archive, please send it in. We have licenses here, so there is no problem with sending in licensed stuff. And feel free to send in questions and answers about this historic technology! Cheers, Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au

29 years, 6 months

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by None

90 20:47:42 CST Received: from sage.cc.purdue.edu by arthur.cs.purdue.edu = (5.61/PURDUE_CS-1.2) id <AA02152(a)arthur.cs.purdue.edu>; Wed, 28 Mar 90 21:39:57 -0500 Received: by sage.cc.purdue.edu (5.61/1.14) id AA23901; Wed, 28 Mar 90 21:39:59 -0500 From: mjs(a)sage.cc.purdue.edu (Michael J Spitzer) Message-Id: <9003290239.AA23901(a)sage.cc.purdue.edu> To: bob(a)cs.purdue.edu Subject: Heheh... Date: Wed, 28 Mar 90 21:39:57 -0500 Status: R To: dmr(a)research.att.com Subject: "Oregano" and Unix wizards Date: Wed, 28 Mar 90 18:14:57 -0500 From: mjs =20 Dennis, As you may know, Unitech Software Inc. has been distributing "Unix Magic" posters at recent Usenix conferences. The poster shows a wizard that looks kinda like you mixing various Unix tools together to make a potion of some sort. The only thing that isn't obviously some sort of pun on an aspect of Unix is a canister labeled Oregano in the foreground of the picture. Is there some significance behind this, other than the obvious "oregano" double meaning? Did you guys really use "oregano" to help drum up your creativity for the original Unix development? Just curious. -mjs - - - - - - - - Return-Path: dmr(a)research.att.com

35 years, 1 month

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re: "Oregano" and Unix wizards

by dmr＠research.att.com

The significance of its appearance is unknown to me. Perhaps it is a Berkeley addition? Dennis --Apple-Mail=_90ADF7E0-EE8E-4984-9710-CD16708E7D52 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = class=3D""><a href=3D"https://i.imgur.com/qMN1are.jpg" = class=3D"">https://i.imgur.com/qMN1are.jpg</a><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: = 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, = 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">=46rom = <a href=3D"mailto:mjs@sage.cc.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">mjs(a)sage.cc.purdue.edu</a> Wed Mar 28 20:47:44 = 1990</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Received:= from <a href=3D"http://arthur.cs.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">arthur.cs.purdue.edu</a> by <a = href=3D"http://oddjob.uchicago.edu" class=3D"">oddjob.uchicago.edu</a> = Wed, 28 Mar 90 20:47:42 CST</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Received:= from <a href=3D"http://sage.cc.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">sage.cc.purdue.edu</a> by <a = href=3D"http://arthur.cs.purdue.edu" class=3D"">arthur.cs.purdue.edu</a> = (5.61/PURDUE_CS-1.2)</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: = 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, = 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">  =   id <<a href=3D"mailto:AA02152@arthur.cs.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">AA02152(a)arthur.cs.purdue.edu</a>>; Wed, 28 Mar 90 21:39:57 = -0500</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Received:= by <a href=3D"http://sage.cc.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">sage.cc.purdue.edu</a> (5.61/1.14)</span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">    id AA23901; Wed, 28 Mar 90 21:39:59 = -0500</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">From: = <a href=3D"mailto:mjs@sage.cc.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">mjs(a)sage.cc.purdue.edu</a> (Michael J = Spitzer)</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">Message-Id: <<a = href=3D"mailto:9003290239.AA23901@sage.cc.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">9003290239.AA23901(a)sage.cc.purdue.edu</a>></span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">To: <a href=3D"mailto:bob@cs.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">bob(a)cs.purdue.edu</a></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Subject: = Heheh...</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Date: = Wed, 28 Mar 90 21:39:57 -0500</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Status: = R</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: = normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">To: <a = href=3D"mailto:dmr@research.att.com" = class=3D"">dmr(a)research.att.com</a></span></div><div style=3D"margin: = 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; = color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Subject: = "Oregano" and Unix wizards</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Date: = Wed, 28 Mar 90 18:14:57 -0500</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">From: = mjs</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: = normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><p style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">  </span><br = class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></p><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">Dennis,</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: = 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, = 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">As you = may know, Unitech Software Inc. has been distributing = "Unix</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Magic" = posters at recent Usenix conferences.  The poster shows = a</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: = normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">wizard = that looks kinda like you mixing various Unix tools together = to</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: = normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">make a = potion of some sort.  The only thing that isn't obviously = some</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">sort of = pun on an aspect of Unix is a canister labeled Oregano in = the</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: = normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">foreground of the picture.</span></div><div style=3D"margin: = 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; = color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: = 16px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: = no-common-ligatures" class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">Is there some significance behind this, other than the = obvious</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">"oregano"= double meaning?  Did you guys really use "oregano" to = help</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">drum up = your creativity for the original Unix development?</span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); = min-height: 16px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: = no-common-ligatures" class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">Just curious.</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">  =       -mjs</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">- - - - = - - - -</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">Return-Path: <a href=3D"mailto:dmr@research.att.com" = class=3D"">dmr(a)research.att.com</a></span></div><div style=3D"margin: = 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; = color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Received:= from <a href=3D"http://inet.att.com" class=3D"">inet.att.com</a> by <a = href=3D"http://sage.cc.purdue.edu" class=3D"">sage.cc.purdue.edu</a> = (5.61/1.14)</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; = line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); = background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">  =   id AA21912; Wed, 28 Mar 90 21:27:13 -0500</span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">Message-Id: <<a = href=3D"mailto:9003290227.AA21912@sage.cc.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">9003290227.AA21912(a)sage.cc.purdue.edu</a>></span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">From: <a href=3D"mailto:dmr@research.att.com" = class=3D"">dmr(a)research.att.com</a></span></div><div style=3D"margin: = 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; = color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Date: = Wed, 28 Mar 90 21:22:25 EST</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">To: <a = href=3D"mailto:mjs@sage.cc.purdue.edu" = class=3D"">mjs(a)sage.cc.purdue.edu</a></span></div><div style=3D"margin: = 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; = color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">Subject: = re: "Oregano" and Unix wizards</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 16px;" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D"">The = significance of its appearance is unknown to me.</span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">Perhaps it is a Berkeley addition?</span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); = min-height: 16px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: = no-common-ligatures" class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: = 'Andale Mono'; color: rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" = class=3D"">    Dennis</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; = font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; color: = rgb(0, 249, 0); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D""><br = class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=3D""><br = class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_90ADF7E0-EE8E-4984-9710-CD16708E7D52--

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