TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

37 participants
6224 discussions

by Jason T. Miller

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle > of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks... -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38020 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:01:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA38016 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:01:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running Unix on PDP-11's. OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's look at what else he discussed: * The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices. * The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices. * Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix. * The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques to their operation. All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38149 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:23:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr> Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000 Received: from baoule.ath.cx (daemon(a)ppp-44-48-96.wmar.club-internet.fr [213.44.48.96]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA38142 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:23:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr) Received: (from gael@localhost) by baoule.ath.cx (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e59LKp129969 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200 From: Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762(a)baoule.ath.cx> References: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com>; from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.16 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the > Bourne shell. Hence, a project. And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history (contrary to bash) look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38483 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:25:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA38479 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:25:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03297; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA60924; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>; from SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > > read this list for. > > I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware discussion. > All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing > list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the > subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this hardware. I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I guess one needs to be created) would be possible. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39191 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:34:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA39187 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:34:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000609213224.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >> > read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least >Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed >directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware >discussion. Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence of Unix. Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving, they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave. I swear, it was a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long. >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? >This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, >but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the >first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be >gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware >discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this >hardware. I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix. >I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I >guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11(a)village.org) already, gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. To a large extent, though, you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...) If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would platform-specific discussions be banned from that? I probably would be bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities to give concrete examples. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39261 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:57:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA39257 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:57:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA63170; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Cc: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>, PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000610112448.K81728(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday, 9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >>> read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least > > Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed > directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware > discussion. > >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list. But I thought it was interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect. Some of these things (write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for example. I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists. Most of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

23 years, 11 months

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with > the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he > forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) We do use inline of course. I love it. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37569 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 10 05:37:25 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA37565 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)[209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02370; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA49090; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000609123725.S55675(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:42:16AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) read this list for.

23 years, 11 months

Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jason T. Miller <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> wrote: > (my loving father having discarded my > DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist property. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34141 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA34137 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:16:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v0421010ab566b93d974a(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Jason Miller wrote: >(not only >does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the >ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at >night when I think nobody's watching) Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_ in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail. I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer. -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA37120 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA37116 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10654; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > > This is pure luxury. > > > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to build. > I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times > as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" > processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the > swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. True. > Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; > I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, > pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA37260 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA37256 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18214; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > write: Read-only file system > > 2+0 records in > > 2+0 records out > That's what I get. Oh - ok. I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the complete copy went thru dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written. > > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > > compares identical to the input file. > > Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed > sleep. Sleep I can understand :) I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area will fix the problem. Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was a change that came in when labels were implemented. Before labels the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble all over the disk and the system would still know about the partitioning. When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;) > I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've > written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC > software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go crazy first. Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct documentation wasn't a given. Then there are Chris Torek's comments in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc. > Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get > 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous > other goodies' I like. Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar. I had real problems with a DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600. Also, if you want to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is too high. With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not loose a single character. > what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an > UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, Slowaris? "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x on the same hardware. You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the system responsiveness. > I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x > that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time. Still, it was a much nicer system. > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Might I suggest "pig"? <grin!> I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go into the system. Csh has filename completion that works fairly well, only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing. But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as command history and command editing: First there's the honest to Bourne shell: text data bss dec hex 16576 2356 416 19348 4b94 /bin/sh Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer (to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much easier than in sh): 55744 7104 3682 66530 103e2 total text: 69120 overlays: 7360,6016 Overlaid! Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid none the less. And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of tcsh for 2.11): 48960 14844 11986 75790 1280e total text: 140864 overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064 Zounds! No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where they would fit. More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me. Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory. If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger) you get logged out. Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at the login prompt shortly there after ;) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37372 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA37368 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACD615573; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id OAA06564; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <20000609145938.A6135(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>; from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. > > Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than > NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the > kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to > build. Well, of course it does. But it's also well worth keeping in mind that while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast. A lot of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler; as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot between 4.3 and NetBSD. Runtime memory use is a somewhat different matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well. Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37445 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD

by Jason T. Miller

> I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, > the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting > preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I > remember. Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine, have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned (20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read (or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5" 'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those. Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave. > write: Read-only file system > 2+0 records in > 2+0 records out That's what I get. > That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but > only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't > decrement the output count on a write error. I noticed that, too. > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > compares identical to the input file. Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed sleep. > The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved > 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can > see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? > One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find > "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices > which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the > latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous other goodies' I like. As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the FreeBSD community At Large. -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29341 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 08:41:25 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29337 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA75007; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-2.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA99748; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006082241.RAA99748(a)shell-2.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: pdub(a)accesscom.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Paul West writes, > BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed > for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman > (BBN). Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had forgotten about that one. There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the PDP-1. Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR system at Stanford. I can't give proper citations because I'm currently 2000 miles from my book collection. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29456 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 9 08:58:44 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29452 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA05733; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000 3:40:15 pm" To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Jason T. Miller: > The only thing I want is > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > FreeBSD community At Large. Yep, it will go into Tools/ Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29574 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 09:21:44 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29569 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA81631; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA57997; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006082321.SAA57997(a)shell-1.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: lars(a)nocrew.org Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Lars Brinkhoff writes, > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature. And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29906 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:27:13 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29902 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA28066; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:25:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <394039E1.ED6AB226(a)accesscom.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:13 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29925 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:31:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:29:55 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29916 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:30:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA28267; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:28:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <39403A83.CDDC2592(a)accesscom.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:29:55 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors (corrected URL) References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version. Paul --- lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA32362 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu> Fri Jun 9 18:55:11 2000 Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA32358 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)indiana.edu) Received: from as45.onet.net (as45.onet.net [207.40.154.45]) by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11456 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 04:05:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s. So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's about 3K, tarred and gzipped. Jason T. Miller Self-styled Jack of England "..." -Anonymous Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33589 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:19:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Fri Jun 9 23:14:11 2000 Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA33585 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:18:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2 [206.229.84.2]) by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17942; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the Bourne shell. Hence, a project. > > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > > FreeBSD community At Large. > > Yep, it will go into Tools/ Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well. The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C (hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)). Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s; Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk; haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:57:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...] It does. > [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...] Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

23 years, 11 months

Re: RQDX3 software interleave

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However, if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8" media will work just fine. RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27345 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jun 9 01:36:34 2000 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27341 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1548310EA; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id LAA27539; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <0006072246.AA16781(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > This is pure luxury.=20 > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27554 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:57:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > This is pure luxury.=20 And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag! -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23628 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Thu Jun 8 08:50:45 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23624 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04229; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA82201; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that > Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as > rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal > article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which describes an early version of the system (where command arguments were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962. The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_, which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965, by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages. The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition was published. You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar, for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command. > Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its > current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and > only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I > can learn more? You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run the software it describes. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 09:36:42 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23733 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA06080; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:35:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423(a)accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" wrote: > does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? On CTSS: F. J. Corbato et al. "An Experimental Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344. P. A. Crisman The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed. MIT Press, 1965. On the Berkeley Timesharing System: W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction" Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196. B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774. This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of: C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell Computer Structures: Readings and Examples Mc-Graw Hill, 1971 and this *entire* book is online at "http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_…" (the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your browser). Happy reading :) Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24483 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 12:27:45 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24479 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA17681; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:26:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Eric Fischer wrote: > > I've read somewhere that > the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing > system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located > on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been > written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run > the software it describes. The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system: J.B. Dennis, "A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research" Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529. BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman (BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system: J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider "A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer" AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57. Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame. Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25136 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jun 8 14:45:32 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25132 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25310; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006080445.VAA25310(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of > the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur. > I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken > (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got Sigh. Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the ensuing compare error. I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3. I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I remember. Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from the MSCP driver with sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9 The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a "ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the 'a' partition. Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc) was dd'd: dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a and almost immediately dd reported: write: Read-only file system 2+0 records in 2+0 records out That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't decrement the output count on a write error. At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering about that ;) After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy compares identical to the input file. The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is *always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is ra9 (second drive on the second controller). > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu Jun 8 15:41:44 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25263 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12zv4a-0003Tr-00; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000" Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> writes: > I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, > but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? How about ITS, did it influence Unix? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25534 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jun 8 17:13:02 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25530 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15445; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: <v04210100b564661bc3fe(a)[10.10.50.26]> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000608090825.9260D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Speaking of PITA > >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in > >single density and data in DD? > > Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that > would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to > do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine > or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives only. Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:04:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? OK, I'll add one. > Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web > page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ??? Yes. > The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a > separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself > uncompressed)." Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that components/compress.tar is the right tarball... > But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory > does not contain it. It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less. > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. > [...] > Is there some documentation available about this? I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project. But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-) -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16405 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> Wed Jun 7 03:36:05 2000 Received: from mmail.bia-bg.com (qmailr(a)mmail.bia-bg.com [212.116.129.29]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA16400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pzh(a)bia-bg.com) Received: (qmail 16852 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2000 17:36:05 -0000 Received: from mmail.bia-bg.com (pzh(a)212.116.129.29) by mmail.bia-bg.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2000 17:36:05 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:36:05 +0300 (EET DST) From: Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000606203205.16815A-100000(a)mmail.bia-bg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all > traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been > built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is > CSRG in every other way. > people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out of the boundaries of the asylum... > -- > Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory > Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force > International Engineering and Science Task Force > 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 > DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA > > Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) > E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) > > P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16600 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Wed Jun 7 05:06:40 2000 Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16596 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from localhost (jasomill@localhost) by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05700 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200005261407.AAA44464(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is 409,600 bytes): $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ diff testrx50.img test Binary files testrx50.img and test differ WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around, I recall the following Additional Facts: - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. - Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall 6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b) RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level, but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically. I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly under RSX-11. Also: - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports itself as read-only, even for root. - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this little slice 'o heaven? And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs for the archive? JasoMill

23 years, 11 months

Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? > David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, > archive area, mail list as required. What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this? IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes..... Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23361 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Thu Jun 8 07:58:58 2000 Received: from hackaholic.org (IDENT:qmailr@d130.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.130.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23356 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org) Received: (qmail 395 invoked by uid 501); 7 Jun 2000 21:58:58 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: unix precursors Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000 Message-ID: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to unix? Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I can learn more? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23424 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Thu Jun 8 08:14:46 2000 Received: from racine.cybercable.fr (racine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23420 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from root(a)gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 3677127 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: from r226m12.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.226.12]) (envelope-sender <root(a)gits.dyndns.org>) by racine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04762; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) From: Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Posted-Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006072214.AAA04762(a)gits.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am" To: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST) CC: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: clefevre(a)citeweb.net Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<<r#uCVjK"~Ke!(a)0vxS/.,wki/c|uVnNV!BA-_gY2sfoGc3 f{#/$PT>97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, > This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > > > and won't fit on an RD53. > I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... > And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very > hany. ;-) > > > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. > Hmm. > > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z > stand.Z: data > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format > > The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive > mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar. > > Go to > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The > version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre@citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23490 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

Re: RQDX3 software interleave

by Jason T. Miller

> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal > with it, ... I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon, though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest _that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and leave it at that. > What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write > and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system. And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8" diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in single density and data in DD? Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing working soon. -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu Jun 8 06:54:01 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA23069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v04210100b564661bc3fe(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Speaking of PITA >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in >single density and data in DD? Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23245 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:38:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

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