< U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we alre
< have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
< "renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pret
< damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
Tahoe is Lake Tahoe California, Reno is in Nevada. The connection is
the two of the cities are connected by I80, The same road you'd take to
get from Boston to Berkeley. Lake Tahoe is a resort area in the mountains
about 50miles (or so) west of Reno.
In those cities sawing the branch your sitting on may well be a paying
bet or a reason to party.
Allison
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>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Nov 24 06:34:05 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:34:05 -0800
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
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At 02:37 PM 11/23/98 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote:
>< U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we alre
>< have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
>< "renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pret
>< damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
>
>Tahoe is Lake Tahoe California, Reno is in Nevada. The connection is
>the two of the cities are connected by I80, The same road you'd take to
>get from Boston to Berkeley. Lake Tahoe is a resort area in the mountains
>about 50miles (or so) west of Reno.
>
>In those cities sawing the branch your sitting on may well be a paying
>bet or a reason to party.
>
>Allison
Well since I live so close to Lake Tahoe and Reno (Sacramento is half way
between Tahoe and Berkeley) I have got to get my two cents in here. My
guess is that Berkeley is well known as a pro party University and Reno and
Tahoe are the main party spots on the west cost! Sounds right to me!
Rick
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
> the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
> these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
> ports?
Well, they have to be compatible somehow, since the same BSD tape was
used for all of them. Actually, there is much more to it. The Tahoe
architecture was specifically designed for BSD. CCI first made a vendor
release for their machines, kinda like SunOS and Ultrix, based on 4.2BSD.
Then some time after the 4.3BSD release CSRG designed to integrate CCI's
changes into the mainstream BSD tree. The result was named 4.3BSD-Tahoe.
What's interesting is that 4.3BSD-Tahoe does not have any bootblocks for
the Tahoe architecture, and the documentation often refers to the BSD
kernels being loaded by the system ROM on Tahoe. As you can imagine, having
the system ROM load your OS's kernels is one hell of a requirement, and the
Harris and Unisys machines would have to REALLY compatible with the CCI for
this to work. My guess would be that they were identical clones, just like
the PC clones that run unmodified PC-DOS.
> And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
If I'm not mistaken, there is a city somewhere on the west side of the
U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we already
have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
"renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pretty
damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Nov 24 04:42:50 1998
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
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Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981123125810.17938D-100000(a)grant.transarc.com> from Pat Barron at "Nov 23, 98 01:05:13 pm"
To: pat(a)transarc.com (Pat Barron)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:42:50 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
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> I think there were some additional licensing restrictions on AOS (e.g.,
> only available to educational institutions), so it might not be
> includable in the archive. I can probably track down folks in Palo Alto
> who worked AOS, and find out.
It might be good to find out any info or history or whatever, if anyone
still knows anything. If IBM does not particularly want it, it might
be nice to add to the archives, as an educational one-up on Gates.
> As far as I know, there was never an "official" ACIS release beyond the
> 1988 4.3BSD release. I have actual distribution tapes around somewhere,
> and could probably make tape images available if it's determined that
> that's OK.
Then what are the `Reno' and `Lite' builds that I have. I was assuming
they were all related, or were there other ports done outside IBM?
Now I am less clear on what it is I actually have......
> P.S. We just dumpster-ized about 6 or 8 RTs from our storage facility
> in the last couple of weeks - I had tried to give them away, but
> the person who was lined up to take them didn't move quite fast
> enough, and the person assigned to storage clean-up got tired of
> having them around ... :-(
Darn! Always one step behind and two weeks late.....
If there are any leftover AOS docs, or any leftover boards, particularly
the external ESDI, SCSI, TAPE, or ethernet boards, or any leftover mice,
that would be nice to locate. Also, a spare tape drive would not hurt.
Dupster fodder......(:+{{.....
Bob Keys
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>From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Nov 24 05:27:21 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:27:21 -0800
To: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com>
Subject: BSD Network Version 2 upload
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PUPS List,
I have just put BSD Network Version 2 up on Minnie in the incoming
directory. This is from a
tape passed to me from Mr. Kirk McKusick. The file includes a readme and
is zipped with WinZip
version 6.22.
Sincerely,
Rick Copeland
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Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> writes:
> And, as I recall (I used to work for STC Australia who sold 'em) it
> had the instruction set of a Vax [...]
Aha! I always suspected that the Tahoe architecture was somehow related
to VAXen, I just didn't know how. Now we all know...
> [...] but backwards, if you know what I
> mean...
I have noticed that the Tahoe architecture is big-endian (I use this to
easily tell between VAX and Tahoe binaries and filesystem dumps). Is this
what you mean? Or is there any more backwardness?
> The CPU was five boards, something like integer card plus
> FPU card plus priority arbitrator card etc.
At least the FPU card was optional, since the Tahoe code in BSD has a
emulator for it.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
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Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> GCC2 on a 9mb machine isn't a pretty sight so pcc is actually a "good
> thing" ;)
It's _ALWAYS_ a good thing, because it's DIVINE (written by Bell Labs
Gods themselves), while gcc and others are mere mortals. Actually, gcc is
even worse than a mere mortal, since it's GNU. It comes directly from the
Inferno.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
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"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> writes:
> I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
The University of California at Berkeley has never made any releases for IBM RT
and nor will I, so there are no BSD releases for IBM RT.
> There really is
> a large bloat between the 4.3 and 4.4 levels in my stuff, too. What
> is responsible for the differences in the bloat?
I have heard jokes that CSRG got Microsoft to rewrite 90% of the code for them.
Seriously, though, the bloat starts in Reno and really gets out of hand in 4.4.
The sources are bloated just as much as the binaries, so I wouldn't blame it
just on the compiler or the libraries.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
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>From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Tue Nov 24 04:05:13 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:05:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
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I think there were some additional licensing restrictions on AOS (e.g.,
only available to educational institutions), so it might not be
includable in the archive. I can probably track down folks in Palo Alto
who worked AOS, and find out.
As far as I know, there was never an "official" ACIS release beyond the
1988 4.3BSD release. I have actual distribution tapes around somewhere,
and could probably make tape images available if it's determined that
that's OK.
--Pat.
P.S. We just dumpster-ized about 6 or 8 RTs from our storage facility
in the last couple of weeks - I had tried to give them away, but
the person who was lined up to take them didn't move quite fast
enough, and the person assigned to storage clean-up got tired of
having them around ... :-(
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>Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
>for their Power 6/32 processor.
That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
ports?
And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com)
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Nov 24 03:09:28 1998
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Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
In-Reply-To: <199811220509.AAA16197(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 22, 98 00:09:52 am"
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:09:28 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
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> > We all know now that Michael's on a crusade for 4.3-Tahoe, so would it be
> > completely unreasonable to build 4.3-Tahoe from sources under 4.3-Reno?
> > It's the most reasonable approach I can think of at the moment.
>
> That's close to what I'm doing. There are two differences, though.
> First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
> would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
> between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
> UNIX(R) and a bloated and POSIXized fallen one.) Second, what I will be
> building won't be plain Tahoe, it will be Quasijarus1, i.e., Tahoe plus
> KA650 support and shadow passwords from Reno and other improvements from
> both later CSRG code and my own brain. SCCS will be the #1 tool in the
> process.
Speaking of crusades.....(:+}}.... I sometimes feel like the orphan
child running BSD on the old IBM RT (I know, not a biggie vaxen iron,
but that is what I have and the cap that I don). It is not too
bad running 16M ram and a 20'' megapel color monitor, but the RISC
processor is running around 12mhz on an ISA bus which is not very fast.
I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
Few on the net know anything about them anymore, and docs are nil.
I asked around IBM, and sort of drew dumb quizzled looks, as if
it had vaporized long ago.
I have uncovered three discrete distributions, one labelled IBM,
and two non-labelled, but which were apparently out of IBM or related
to IBM in some way, maybe after IBM dropped AOS, but I am not sure.
The background of it all is a mystery.
The first is a ``build 0'' thing called AOS or AOS/4.3, and it
appears to be a somewhat vanilla 4.3BSD, or possibly might be
as late as Tahoe. It has pcc and a Metaware C compiler, and is not
very strange. Other than the compilers being somewhat broken and
the time never correct, it runs well, and feels like 4.3.
The second is a ``build 16'' and labelled Reno, but is running gcc
and related things. My suspicion is that it is a 4.4, but I am not
sure. It seems fairly plain and following the 4.4 docs pretty well.
I don't think it is really Reno, but was named that by someone back
in time for some developmental reason maybe having been started from
a Reno tree, although I am not sure.
The third is a ``build 433'' and labelled Lite, and seems to be somewhat
straight 4.4 and somethat Lite (has two intermixed source trees), and
is gigabyte in size, and rather strangely laid out. It may have been
the last build for the RT.
Unfortunately, original tapes and documents for these are long gone,
and I have only been able to pick up bits and pieces here and there.
I don't find mention of these ports anywhere in the usual docs, other
than a slight hint that they existed at one time. Supposedly, bits
are on a mystical CD that is reputed to exist, and I have heard of
two actual CD's that may have survived.
I have spent the last 6 months resurrecting the ports, and basically
have a reliable 4.3 running, a running but somewhat broken ``Reno''
or whatever it is (of all things vi is only 99% operational because
of terminal driver problems), and a broken but somewhat running
``4.4/4.4Lite'' or whatever that really is (it boots and barely
stays up, but I have been working on making it stay up).
Does anyone on the PUPS list remember what these things actually are,
and what level they are actually at? My historical curiosity is
getting the better of me, and like Michael, I tend to like the plain
model-T spartan simplicity of a 4.3 style machine. There really is
a large bloat between the 4.3 and 4.4 levels in my stuff, too. What
is responsible for the differences in the bloat? I get binaries about
half the size in 4.3 compared to the 4.4whatevers I have. Is that just
a function of gcc and how it codes things or libraries? Anyway, it
has been a most refreshing learning experience getting these things up
and running again.
Is there any interest on the list to archive the ports that I have?
Warren?
Out of curiosity, again, anyone else on the PUPS list running RT iron
or am I the last holdout? The few RT folks that I am familiar with
are all running AIX still, although they remember the BSDs. So much
seems to have been lost, already, or most of the machines have become
dumpster fodder.
Any insights, history, or horror stories about the old RT BSD ports are
most welcome.
Thanks
Bob Keys
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Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> Reno came with GCC though.
Wrong. Reno uses pcc for both VAX and Tahoe architectures, just like
4.2, 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, and all other True UNIX(R) releases. gcc is included
in the Reno distribution _as a compressed tarball_, and it's used only for
the experimental and unsupported hp300 port, and that's only because there
is no pcc support for it.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Nov 23 12:26:14 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:26:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Hi -
> From: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
> Wrong. Reno uses pcc for both VAX and Tahoe architectures, just like
> 4.2, 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, and all other True UNIX(R) releases. gcc is included
Oops - I actually fired up the uVax-II (first time in almost 3 years)
and typed 'gcc' and it told me 2.5.8
But as it turns out that was something I'd added later (with much work).
GCC2 on a 9mb machine isn't a pretty sight so pcc is actually a "good
thing" ;)
Steven
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>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Mon Nov 23 16:05:13 1998
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To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 EST."
<199811230114.UAA16563(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:05:13 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 -0500
From: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
> available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
> simple question:
>
> What is the "Tahoe"?
I have been pondering over the same question for a LONG
time, and I would love to know the answer to it, as would
Rick Copeland. The ex-CSRG folks are probably the only
people on the planet who know the answer, and it looks like
Marshall Kirk McKusick is the only one of them on this list.
Kirk, do you have any insight?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
for their Power 6/32 processor. Many of their early changes to BSD
were labelled:
#ifdef tahoe
to identify the 6/32 specific code. So, when we did the port we
just called it Tahoe because its prime purpose was to add support
for the CCI 6/32 machine.
Kirk McKusick
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Mon Nov 23 17:16:50 1998
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From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
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Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
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On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Kirk McKusick wrote:
> Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
> for their Power 6/32 processor. Many of their early changes to BSD
> were labelled:
> #ifdef tahoe
> to identify the 6/32 specific code. So, when we did the port we
> just called it Tahoe because its prime purpose was to add support
> for the CCI 6/32 machine.
And, as I recall (I used to work for STC Australia who sold 'em) it
had the instruction set of a Vax, but backwards, if you know what I
mean... The CPU was five boards, something like integer card plus
FPU card plus priority arbitrator card etc.
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
> available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
> simple question:
>
> What is the "Tahoe"?
I have been pondering over the same question for a LONG time, and I
would love to know the answer to it, as would Rick Copeland. The ex-CSRG
folks are probably the only people on the planet who know the answer, and
it looks like Marshall Kirk McKusick is the only one of them on this list.
Kirk, do you have any insight?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> For a quick work-around to make a bootable 4.3 miniroot without a
> tape drive, Michael, you might consider the following (similar
> tricks will work on NetBSD distributions too):
>
> Ingredients:
> [...]
> Some other operating system to write the disk from
> (for example, VMS, NetBSD, BSD2.11 and a PDP-11/73/83/93 CPU,
> RT-11 and any PDP-11 CPU, etc.)
The last part is the problem. At this location I have only one DEC
machine, and that's the KA650 I'm trying to get Ultrix on.
The guy with the MV3400 (and the TK70/TQK70 pair inside it) is still out
for the weekend, should hear something later this evening. If that falls
through and no one helps me with a spare TQK50, I'll have to come up with
another disk for this PC I'm typing this on, install FreeBSD on it, netboot
NetBSD/vax, and use that to load Reno over the net onto another disk (the
VAX has 5 of them). Much more painful, but still better than nothing.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Over the summer break [...]
I was first thrown off by this (yesterday was officially the first snow
day here in Cleveland), but then I remembered that Australia is in the
southern hemisphere, so your summer is our winter, right?
> I'll add some smarts to
> minnie's web server and other services to remind people to make the
> switch in their bookmarks, hotlinks etc.
OK, will change the HostName line in my .ssh/config. I'm already using
the new domain name when posting.
> P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
> back now. I hate PC hardware.
Then why do you use it? Why not run the PUPS/TUHS server on a VAX
running 4.3BSD-Quasijarus (or 4.3BSD or 4.3BSD-Reno if you can't wait), or
maybe a PDP-11 running 2.11BSD?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
P.S. Your Sendmail is still putting .oz.au in the outgoing mail headers.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Nov 23 09:31:04 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:31:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811222331.PAA18529(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Hi -
> The lifting of the filesystem limits is in Tahoe, not in Reno. When you
> talk about the speed of Reno's binaries, what are you comparing it to? I
> know for sure that there are no significant changes in the C compiler
> between plain 4.3, Tahoe, and Reno.
UH, not quite so. Unless 4.3 and Tahoe used GCC (which they did
not). I'd say that there is a big difference between the 4.3
C compiler (pcc or whatever it started out as) and GCC. Tahoe,
while adding support for the CCI line of computers (tried to
get folks to buy one but they wouldn't go for it) did NOT use
GCC (which wasn't out yet or if it was had just started making
an appearance). Reno came with GCC though.
The older pre-Reno compilers (being straight K&R) didn't handle
prototypes - that's what you had "lint" for.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)Moe.2bsd.com
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