On Wednesday, 5 August 1998 at 9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
> name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
> now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
> chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
> maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
> licences, too.
>
> Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
> Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
> Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
> Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.
OK. Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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>From Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Thu Aug 6 01:11:21 1998
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Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST)
From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>
Message-Id: <199808051511.RAA26558(a)IAEhv.nl>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: TUHS web page: version #0
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pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST)
wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:
wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/
wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions,
wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to
wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?
Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated
to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware
info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information
on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this
mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run
2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often.
(Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO,
but that won't take too long anymore.)
The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org
I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site,
there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and
let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed,
so I can make the site more complete.
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.orghttp://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
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>From Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com> Thu Aug 6 07:15:52 1998
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From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com>
Message-Id: <199808052115.RAA12664(a)shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT)
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One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting
to study. This may be because of my history major background -- or that
I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors
of these boxes.
One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.
Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which
was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty
and 3 UUCP's). It was kind of the Universal Unix system.
Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there.
AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them.
I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since
I could mix and match features on the fly.
Both of these versions are pretty dead today. I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid
even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant
SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff). The main drawback to getting
these systems are they were was all implemented on SysIII or
SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need
a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee."
Bill
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>From Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Thu Aug 6 09:46:20 1998
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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST)
From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>
Message-Id: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
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pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major
pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
pe>Edition VII.
8< snip >8
Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?
I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that
should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a
Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to
be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years.
I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth
telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very
incomplete set on the OS.
Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about
the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I
copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it
copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.)
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Aug 6 15:23:54 1998
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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
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On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote:
> pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
> pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
> pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
> pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major
> pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
> pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
> pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
> pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
> pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
> pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
> pe>Edition VII.
>
> 8< snip >8
>
> Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?
I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver",
by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document. It's
possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead.
Greg
--
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Aug 12 09:36:42 1998
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
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On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:
> < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the
> < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali
> < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
>
> They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s.
(Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)
Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster
pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there
are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the
VAXen.
> Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making
> all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This
> place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting.
> We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the
> code and preserved it from loss.
Amen.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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How about a direct approach.
Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems. PUPs would
then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums. the key
is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best
fit forum. Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and
NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix. there are also 8bit
flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few.
Allison
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Wed Aug 5 06:09:41 1998
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
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* Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
> Yes!
No no no! This is really bad. We should not try and sit down and say
who or what we exclude and who or what we include. There are hundreds
of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of
hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is
also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're
running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to
*us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah').
Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is
interested in older Unixoid systems be involved. The only logical
dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger
system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the
interdata port, or ?).
It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people
trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have
their own lists and are quite happy there. If people ask
inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite
pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate).
As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix
preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues.
Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually
talk about real interesting stuff! Here's a question I'd actually
like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like
systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange'
(by modern standards) machines?
--tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
code in it on something that isn't even a Vax.
And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:11:53 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042311.JAA18650(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: A Decision :-)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST)
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Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
licences, too.
Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.
If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up
other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists.
Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed
to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or
whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion.
I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same
time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more
specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged.
Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually
get back to DOING things :-)
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:21:28 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042321.JAA18748(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST)
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All,
Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD
releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/
Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is
just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back
until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page,
but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September.
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:56:04 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042356.JAA18931(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: TUHS web page: version #0
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST)
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All,
The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/
Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks,
background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX
web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?
Thanks,
Warren
The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of
a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to
type. Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with
little religious zeal.
The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is
`devoted to the preservation of all information related to the
versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.' It seems pretty
clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep
historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support
Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast. (No slur
intended on those who do want to do those things.) Certainly
that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on
which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in.
It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix
systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding
them into the same society or just having several groups that
share. I would suggest that a single society (even if run as
several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the
long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name.
(Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a
duplication of USENIX.) Those who think `heritage' and
`preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point;
see the paragraph above.
All of this is likely to involve more work for someone. I don't
know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to
me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he
did the single hardest part, that of getting things started.
Those of us who think the society should do more things should
be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths
are.
In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for
the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping
my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form
will soak up most of my spare cycles. (Apologies to all that the
samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't
up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and
trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a
lot more effort than expected.) It may be possible in my new
world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian
mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the
already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment.
If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use
another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash.
I encourage others who can help out to speak up. Judging by the
amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently
(almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare
energy out there somewhere.
It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support;
preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and
their current president has some history of preservation work.
Norman Wilson
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>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Aug 5 05:24:11 1998
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Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with
source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source
licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is
to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has
to be set for inexpensive. A second, and more important objection is
that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11
unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal,
binary only licences would be excluded.
Neil
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< Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate
^^^
has
Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present
tense for the future.
Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may
have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete
sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but
little of the code.
< as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact
< we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.
True.
The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially
viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.
Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS
that is not free or shareware.
Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call
archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building
upon it.
The patriot stuff, pure poof.
Allison
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mon Aug 3 23:42:53 1998
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm"
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> > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
> >
> > Greg
>
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of
discussion, maybe that is good.
What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income.
What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like
the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would
consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe).
One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same
quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially,
it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect
them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might
consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware.
I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be
suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that
SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am
reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.
Is this reasonable?
Just thinking out loud.....
If nothing else, the discussion is good.....
Bob Keys
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
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Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am"
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT)
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> Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may
> have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete
> sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but
> little of the code.
This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider.
I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred
to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little
was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would
NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help.
The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers
(only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the
passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early
boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes
that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around
by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed
through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or
gone.
Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so
that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all
about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like
the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the
unix flavors alive.
> The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially
> viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.
I would expect that our collective interests center on the former,
even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally.
Bob Keys
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>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Aug 4 12:14:43 1998
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From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
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On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you
are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and
the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy.
They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as
you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes).
Anybody more detailed information on this ?
Joerg
----
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Aug 4 14:15:23 1998
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Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am"
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In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys:
> Do any of us really want SysV?
Not me :-)
> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
> binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
> What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am
I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries.
> reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
> These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
> for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.
I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc.
Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris.
Ciao,
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Aug 4 15:09:47 1998
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To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>,
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Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
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On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
>> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
>> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that
the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only
for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP
machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of
System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the
last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't
discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK
the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly
after.
>> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
>> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
>
> Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of
> discussion, maybe that is good.
>
> What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
> the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
> include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
> a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
> history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's
> income.
In principle, not a bad idea.
> What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things
> like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use
> (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others
> non-commercial maybe).
Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I
wouldn't consider it orphan.
> One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
> Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
> and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same
> quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially,
> it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
> SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort.
I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the
moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although
it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning
more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was.
> I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be
> workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices
> (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others.
> Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby
> licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would
> consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only
> a binary license of some sort would be all that we could
> collectively expect.
What would you do with a binary license.
> What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I
> am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the
> real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to
> keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively
> seem be be heading towards.
FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a
CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD
and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further
developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD
machine.
> If nothing else, the discussion is good.....
Definitely.
Greg
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
> then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.
It is, isn't it?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:45:52 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030345.NAA15453(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: What to do now with PUPS
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm"
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
> the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
> SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
> trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
> license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
> the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
> code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
> PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
>
> Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
> on more than just PDP-11s.
>
> Michael Sokolov
I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11
UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from
Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal
goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons.
Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a
mailing list, web page etc.
Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We
started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals
of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided
by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html,
which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes.
Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result
of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the
mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was
unintentional.
The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal
goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that:
+ There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license
+ For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok
+ 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed
+ System III was also dubious
+ System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed
The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky,
even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO,
for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only
licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly).
Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path
for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought
so hard for it to be included in the license.
Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes
work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit
systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope
for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would
have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's
legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference.
However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases
on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been
saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to
extend what has been achieved. Go for it!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 14:04:19 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030404.OAA15507(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
Michael writes:
> > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> > system.
>
> I would have a problem being a "Patriot".
>
> Greg
Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate,
as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact,
we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.
My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's
freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan
or fanatic.
I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising,
we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a
name into the PUPS acronym.
I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society.
For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list,
don't forget that you can switch to the digest version.
echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Warren
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>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 14:00:42 1998
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Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
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Mikhail,
On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.
Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already.
I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that
the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own
email again).
The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart
machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler.
Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in
that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not
stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle
of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the
UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not
being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there
at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book
around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might
find it interesting to read, too.
With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX
and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with
renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history
of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page
that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only.
Regards,
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore Networks and Applications
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Mon Aug 3 15:00:18 1998
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From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
>
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that
they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what
the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on
one of their personal web pages that I read it.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
> systems.
You still don't get it. WRONG!
Quoting from the license text:
> 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
>
> The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this
> Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems,
> including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit
> PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating
> systems:
>
> 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
> 32-bit 32V
^^^^^^^^^^^
Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
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Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
> [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_
cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32-
bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as
West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32-
bit CPUs.
As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
on more than just PDP-11s.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:15:35 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030315.NAA15369(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
> ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
> we should go tilting at windmills.
> Greg
I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now
that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but
I'm sure it will change over time.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:16:57 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030316.NAA15399(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm"
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing.
>
> It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
> the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
> clones.
If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:26:16 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>,
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Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
>> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
>> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
>> system software.
>
> No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> system.
I would have a problem being a "Patriot".
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V.
Yes, you are right.
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
Yes!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these
> systems.
Yes!
However, later you write:
> My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
Nee, see below.
David C. Jenner <djenner(a)halcyon.com> writes:
> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
> system software.
No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
"preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
system.
> Primordial Unix Preservation Society.
Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society?
> (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)
I agree. Hence my suggestion above.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing.
It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
clones.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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