Mahlzeit
My hardware:
Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot
from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports.
MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS,
MT, MU, SY, DU.
It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown
size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my
controller.)
Kernel:
To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are
these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console
unter RT-11.
Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM?
Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES?
Installation:
I think there are three possible ways of installing it:
1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with
rtkerm.
The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work?
2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the
swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the
usr-data (kermit? write simple program?).
This sould also install the disklabel.
3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data
(kermit? write simple program?).
The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator.
What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better
idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?)
Thanks
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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Hi,
I have a little problem installing 2.11BSD on my PDP11/83. I have a TK50
tape with the distribution and a TK50 drive from a uvaxII. The controller
board is a M7546 that comes from another vax. The original tape drive in
this PDP is an TK25 drive which I have disconnected. How should the
TK50controller be strapped? The TK25 answered at 17772520. Should the TK50
be there as well? (I haven't got a clue howthe QBus works... I know it's
some kind of cascading thing though so I guess it matters in what order
the boards are placed in the machine)
Thanks for any help!
--
Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3)
jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3)
http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2)
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 18 09:50:25 1998
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804172350.QAA06940(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Slightly offtopic...
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Jorgen -
Hello.
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
> I have a little problem installing 2.11BSD on my PDP11/83. I have a TK50
> tape with the distribution and a TK50 drive from a uvaxII. The controller
> board is a M7546 that comes from another vax. The original tape drive in
> this PDP is an TK25 drive which I have disconnected. How should the
> TK50controller be strapped? The TK25 answered at 17772520. Should the TK50
That is the correct address for the first TS controller in the system.
Despite the name ("TK25") the TK25 is a TS device and not a TMSCP
device.
> be there as well? (I haven't got a clue howthe QBus works... I know it's
No. The TK50 should be at the first TMSCP address which is 172150.
You do not have to (indeed, you can not) set the vector on the M7546
because TMSCP devices are 'programmable' - the kernel will assign
a unique vector to the controller at boot time.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 18 10:38:02 1998
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804180038.RAA07251(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: ERROR in previous mail item (TMSCP)
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Hello -
I looked at the wrong line in the dtab file earlier.
The primary TMSCP address (where the TQK50 adaptor should go) is
174500. I accidentally gave the address of the first MSCP ('ra')
earlier.
So if you have both a TK50 and a TK25 the boards should be set like
this
TK25 172520
TK50 174500
Sorry for any confusion I caused.
Steven
<That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. W
<it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one wi
KXT-11 was the t-11 cpu, duart (2 dl lines), PIOs ram and prom on one dual
width card. It was designed as a bus master.
KXT-11+ was also T-11, quad width with peripherals on board but could work
as both bus master and bus slave.
KXJ-11 was the later versionusing the J-11 cpu.
< Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way
<ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set
<do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I exp
<could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes
<DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in
<BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have a
<disks.
The were intended to replace lsi-11/03 and /2 cpus for embedded operation.
They with proper memory would run Rt-11 and could be used for a self
development system. At one time I had one in a BA11-va (showbox) with
a RXV21 and MXV11 and it was a very good 32k RT-11 system.
I also reassembled a MDS-11A a Vt100 with a PDP-11 qbus inside as a
desktop development system for PDP-11.
Allison
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>From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> Thu Apr 16 18:58:50 1998
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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:50 +0200 (CEST)
From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11?
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Hi,
What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83?
What I have:
PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation.
A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet.
And I have a spare DEQNA laying about.
What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the
MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there.
Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system?
What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing
2.11BSD.
Thanks for any input!
--
Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3)
jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3)
PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2)
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 17 01:47:14 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804161547.IAA12057(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11?
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Greetings -
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
>
> What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83?
> What I have:
> PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation.
That tape device sounds like it is a TK25. It uses the DC600A
(60mb) cartridges.
> A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet.
> And I have a spare DEQNA laying about.
The DEQNA is supported by 2.11BSD so it would be a good idea to add
that board to the 11/83.
> What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the
> MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there.
Ok - that will work fine. Another possiibility would be to move the
TK25 (QIC) drive to the uVax-II and write the tapes to DC600A tapes.
Then move the TK25 back to the 11/25 and boot
> Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system?
Alas no. The RD52 is only ~30mb (the RD53 is about 70mb and the RD54
is ~159mb). A complete 2.11 system needs about 100mb (~8mb for a
root filesystem, 4mb for a swap partition and ~80mb for sources plus
binaries). A ZIP cartridge will (just) hold a complete 2.11 system
(with about 8mb left over). To hold a complete 2.11 system you'll
need either two RD53 drives or a single RD54.
A minimal system (root filesystem plus selected binaries from /usr)
could be installed on a RD52 but it would definitely not be a complete
system capable of recompiling itself.
> What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing
> 2.11BSD.
2.11 is an excellent match for the 11/83. Earlier versions (2.9 for
example) will have a difficult time because MSCP support did not
arrive until 2.10BSD. TMSCP support was not present until 2.10.1BSD
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Fri Apr 17 07:12:45 1998
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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:12:45 +0100
To: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11?
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In message <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>,
Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> writes
>Hi,
>What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83?
>What I have:
>PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation.
>
>A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet.
>And I have a spare DEQNA laying about.
>
>What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the
>MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there.
>
Yes, this will be the simplest way
>Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system?
>
no, an RD54 is probably the best to aim for if you can get your hands on
one.
>What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing
>2.11BSD.
That will do fine
>
>
>Thanks for any input!
>
>--
>Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3)
>jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3)
>PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2)
>
Cheers
Robin
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
On Apr 16, 0:00, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-)
If I'd been quicker off the mark with my 11/04, you would have :-)
> Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11.
> Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it?
> But it was a board, and not a machine...
That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. Wasn't
it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one with a
J11, too. Was that a Falcon+ ? I think there were three versions altogether.
Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way; the
ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set up to
do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I expect it
could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes
DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in a
BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have any
disks.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
>
> > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
> > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55
11/60 11/70 11/84...
> Two additions to make the list officially complete:
>
> QBUS: 11/93
> Unibus: 11/94
And one more to make the list officially really complete:
Unibus: 11/04
(which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else).
BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as
11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the
same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O
integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 07:56:14 1998
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:14 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
In-Reply-To: <9804152208.ZM16395(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote:
> > <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
> > <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
> > <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
> > <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
> >
> > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that
> > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I
> > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11
> > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close).
>
> Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design
> features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available
> called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The
> same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is
> one of the big features.
You got to be kidding?!?
<FLAME ON>
The 68K is a miserable beast at the best of times.
Separated address and data registers, PC is a special register, some
addressing modes are not allowed in some instructions, some manipulations
can only be done on data register, not address registers, immediate mode
is just an assembler fake, it's actually another instruction, the
semantics of some instructions differ depending on what type of arguments
you use, writing PIC can be a real pain unless you have the 68K20. The
list is long and sad.
The 68K is what happens if you take a good design (PDP-11) and mungle up
every part of the design. It's like if they never really understood why
the PDP-11 was done they way it was, and copied the parts they though
nifty and continued with adding their own strange ideas on top of it.
<FLAME OFF>
Having said all this, it's still a nice thing compared to Intel stuff, I
guess. :-) (But I've only programmed the Z80...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Thu Apr 16 08:00:52 1998
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From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
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> Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies...
> Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and
> makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-)
The 11/20 used a switch mode power supply (H720) (I still have a
functional machine!). You would have to go back to something like a PDP8/e
(got one of these two!) for a huge linear power supply. It has a huge SCR for
the overvoltage crowbar in order to dump all the energy in the filter capacitors
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 08:00:20 1998
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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:20 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com>
cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
In-Reply-To: <9804152230.ZM16484(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> >
> > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
> > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55
> 11/60 11/70 11/84...
>
> > Two additions to make the list officially complete:
> >
> > QBUS: 11/93
> > Unibus: 11/94
>
> And one more to make the list officially really complete:
>
> Unibus: 11/04
> (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else).
Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-)
Is there anyone who can figure out any more models?
> BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as
> 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the
> same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O
> integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though.
Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11.
Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it?
But it was a board, and not a machine...
What about the VT103?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote:
> <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
> <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
> <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
> <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
>
> Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that
> is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I
> know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11
> and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close).
Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design
features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available
called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The
same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is
one of the big features.
> Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them.
All right, providing I can have the ones on this side of the Atlantic...
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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<> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
<> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their app
<> for electricity. :)
None the above systems are tough it really depends on the disks used. The
later of the three in the microPDP-11 format (ba23/123) are very resonable
using MSCP and MFM drives. The QBUS-11s are modest power compared to the
Ubus-11s.
Also the Qbus-11s win in the small sizing as well. I have two BA11n boxen
one with 11/23b and the other 11/73, RX02, RL02, and MSCP disks all in one
50" rack.
<For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be
<required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted
<a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some
<minor C compiling, associated with that.
A qbus 11/73 (or 83) a meg of ram and disks would be comfortably under
500 watts. Adding an RL02 is not painful though it uses more than the
CPU box total. The massbus disks or RK/RMs are high power just for the
spindle motors.
<> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with
<> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
You could if you set up event, ACOK and DCOK. Most of the DEC supplies
are actually lowvoltage switchers (744s) and the later ones are high
voltage swicthers (BA11s/BA32/BA123... all qbus).
<Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate
<20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my
<antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s?
The bigger Ubus machines and some of the bigger (physically too) disks
are killer though most common PDP11s are really quite moderate to small in
their needs.
<I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep
<a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is
Smae here, the CCS2200 with DISCUS 10m and two SA800s challenge the 11/23
for power needed!
<What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11
<There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never di
<get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for th
<CP/M thingie, instead.
The H11 was a LSI11/03 cpu with heath equivelents for DLs and memorys, the
disks however were strange.
<What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember
<the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in abou
<15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up.
<What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles?
I ahve V7 up on an 11/73 on one RL02 pack (10mb) and it's cramped with
about 4mb free. Two RL02s would be pretty good. If I can get 2.11 up
that will talk to the MSCP disks RD52(31mb)/53(71mb) and I'd expect plenty
of space then.
Allison
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 02:39:56 1998
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:39:56 -0700
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804151550.AA21199(a)world.std.com>
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[What PDP-11s run Unix...]
I currently run Version 7 on a PDP-11/83 Q-bus box stored under my bed.
(I have a hospital bed, the kind you can crank up and down - Mine's about
3/4 the way up)
The RL02 I boot from is twice the size of the CPU!
I also have an MSCP device that I load RT-11 from.
BTW, there is a setting in the '83 Setup program called allow-alternate-bootblock,
you can directly boot Unix by enabling this. Does that work on an 11/73 as well?
I just turn on the RL, start the disk and the CPU at the same time, and the disk
comes ready just at the 9-step check finishes.
I say unix and off it goes.
Now, I I could just get it to see my DHQ11...
-------
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>From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 02:42:54 1998
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To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
References: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:42:54 +0200
In-Reply-To: "Ed G."'s message of "Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400"
Message-ID: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
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"Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> writes:
> What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
> generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
> out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
> better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
It's simply beautiful. The PDP-11 architecture is the pinnacle of
16-bit computing, as the 6502 (the world's first RISC chip) is the
unchallenged champion of elegance in 8-bit microprocessors. The
cleanliness and orthogonality of the PDP-11 is a wonder to behold.
To top it off, they also knew when to _break_ orthogonality to make
proper use of the addressing mode bit combinations that don't make
sense for use with the program counter.
A good friend of mine, for whom I have much respect, claims that the
PDP-10 is even more beautiful. I can't comment on this, not knowing
that architecture, but myself I've seen nothing to challenge the '11.
Among more modern processors, I'm quite partial to Motorola's MC68K.
I also like the Transputer -- who doesn't? As for microcontrollers,
I've worked quite a bit with the Intel MCS-51 chips, and enjoyed it.
For the definition of "butt ugly", see the Intel i386 and its ilk.
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 04:16:24 1998
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:16:24 -0700
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
To: tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO
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[PDP-10 inst. set is nicer than PDP-11...]
Not sure about that, I haven't play with either enough to compare them.
But, judging by the pictures I have, a PDP-11/70 is about 1/2 as cool looking
as a KA-10!
[I *HAVE* to scan these and put them online sometime...]
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>From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 04:02:02 1998
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
References: <199804151522.IAA22441(a)moe.2bsd.com>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:02:02 +0200
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)"
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"Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the
> one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here
> doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding
> of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a
> 11/73 (for QBUS).
Do you have the documentation you need for that RA81, Steven? I've
got the user's manual here, which isn't much, of course, but at least
tells you how to hook up a terminal, run diagnostics, and interpret
the results...
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 05:48:00 1998
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:00 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
In-Reply-To: <199804110246.WAA07393(a)renoir.op.net>
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On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities
> rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact
> "right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough.
>
> At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to
> me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to
> count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar
> utility. What do you all think?
Would probably be a better idea, yes. :-)
> > You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here.
> >
> > 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate?
>
> As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is
> relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file.
> This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the
> runtime image consisted of static data.
But you made an assumption that addrtesses to data don't come in theflt.
op-code range, since few programs have that much data. But, by assuming
that they don't have "that much" data, you must also assume that whatever
little dtaa there is don't start at a high address. Your program can have
as little as one word of data, located at 177776, referenced a zillion
times, and your algorithm will catch it as a zillion flt. ops.
> > 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range
> > 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode.
>
> My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would
> apply.
Oh, it most definitely does.
Tell me, what is the difference between a string of two bytes, a word, and
an instruction in memory?
Nothing. It's just a question of how you look at it.
So when you are talking about a word, how do you know that the programmer
didn't write two bytes there?
The reason I said "odd addres" was because the byte at the odd address is
the high byte of the word you are looking at.
> > 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the
> > high four bits.
>
> This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I
> don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much.
That is a good point. But it's still a problem.
The point is more or less always, but a lot of small errors...
:-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:06:30 1998
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
In-Reply-To: <199804110245.WAA07386(a)renoir.op.net>
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On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about
> this.
>
> In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch
> instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick
> skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would
> be a problem because:
>
> 1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128,
> 127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at
> the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the
> odd byte.
Correct.
> 2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem
> because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they
> always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never
> be followed by a negative number.
2 wrong.
. Where did you get the idea that jump instructions have to be absolute?
. What about jumps to absolute addresses in the flt. op-code range?
I'm not sure about the 2BSD assembler, but the normal way of coding is to
have *all* addressing relative in the DEC assemblers. That means not just
jumps, but all instructions which takes arguments.
Almost all have word arguments, branch being one of the few exceptions.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:33:19 1998
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:19 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
In-Reply-To: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net>
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On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor
> handbook* states:
>
> "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through
> the eight general purpose registers."
>
> If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and
> addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely
> the PC. I think this is quite cool.
>
> What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
> generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
> out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
> better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
The PDP-11 did it right, all others did it wrong. :-)
Well, at least as long as you're talking about general register machines.
(And points could be made that the M68K isn't very general about its
registers...)
For accumulator machines, I guess the vote goes to the PDP-10.
All with a big :-) of course. This is religion...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:41:02 1998
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
cc: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
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On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
> Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84...
Two additions to make the list officially complete:
QBUS: 11/93
Unibus: 11/94
The last PDP-11s by DEC.
Then you have the never-11s. (See the FAQ.)
> Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine.
> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite
> for electricity. :)
They are also normally just about the same machine as the next number in
line, but for OEM markets.
11/05 - 11/10
11/15 - 11/20
11/35 - 11/40
> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern
> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
> (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...)
:-)
Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies...
Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and
makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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<"In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through
<the eight general purpose registers."
<
<If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and
<addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely
<the PC. I think this is quite cool.
Same for stack relative access.
The PDP-11 archetecture was an example of CISC to the max for 16 bit
machines, compared to most micros it has more and richers instruction
set, addressing modes and highlights what can be attained when all
registers are general. Added to a two address structure those registers
and addressing modes make for flexibility and programming power.
...yes a PC relative jump could easily be done with an add r7!
<What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
<generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
<out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
<better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that
is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I
know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11
and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). The
various chip versions of the PDP-11 (lsi11, T11, F11, J11) have achieved
performace exceeding many of the conteporary microprocessors in code
density and execution speed. The PDP-11 and the C language are an
excellent match, both for addressing modes and effienctcy of compilation.
It is also a good foundation for FORTH.
Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them.
Allison
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>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Wed Apr 15 23:17:47 1998
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From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:47 -0500
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Reply-To: milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu
References: <199804141844.OAA03748(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
<9804150331.ZM9568(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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Hi,
>
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>[snip]
>On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>
[snip]
>
>> Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often.
>> What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7
>> sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and
>> chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some
>> sort of machine together.
>
>There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two
>general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are
>Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to
>be smaller.
QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84...
Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine.
(They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite
for electricity. :)
Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern
switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
(donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...)
>
>As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run,
How about an 11/44?
>as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and
>data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is
>suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are
>quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models.
>
>Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as
>many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better),
>at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation
>software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there
>are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot
>more for BSD.
>
>Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what
>you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice
>you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-)
>
>--
>
>Pete Peter Turnbull
> Dept. of Computer Science
> University of York
>
---
Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
Information Technology Services -- Network Services
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Apr 16 01:03:00 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804151403.AA13468(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0800 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from "Milo Velimirovic" at Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am
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> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern
> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
> (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...)
It's hardly heretical - all Unibus 11's have always had switching
power supplies for the high-current (+5V and - for core machines - +20V)
lines. Depending on the exact model, +15 and/or -15 may have come
from a linear power supply, but these are very low-current lines and
not a major factor in power consumption.
The way to greatly reduce the power consumption of a big Unibus -11
is to go to a more modern CPU and memory in the original backplane.
For an extreme example, a 11/70 with 2 MW of core memory in MJ11 boxes
will draw about 70 Amps at 120 VAC, for over 8kW of power consumption.
But you can replace the 11/70 CPU set with a Quickware replacment
and take the CPU part of power consumption down to 3 or so Amps at
120 VAC, or under 0.4kW.
> >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run,
>
> How about an 11/44?
Yep, does work. (I had always been promising Steven that I would get
the FP emulator working so I could run it on my FP-less 11/44, but
I got a FP board before I got the emulator going. So you need the FP
board for a 11/44, still!)
Tim.
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Apr 16 01:06:41 1998
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Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0800 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9804150331.ZM9568(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 15, 98 02:31:22 am
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> Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as
> many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better),
> at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation
> software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there
> are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot
> more for BSD.
One important point to note is that if you want support for modern MSCP
disk devices, you want to go with 2.11BSD. The most modern disk devices
supported by 7th Edition are the RL02 and the various Massbus disks.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Apr 16 00:25:26 1998
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From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199804151425.KAA04925(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am"
To: milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT)
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> >There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two
> >general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are
> >Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend
> >to be smaller.
>
> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83
> Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55
> 11/60 11/70 11/84...
>
> Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine.
Which would be the ones to look out for for practical unix use?
> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite
> for electricity. :)
I have heard that from the computer students around here who chuckle at
the thought that I would attempt to run such a beastie. They are chasing
Alphas and Pentiums, whilst I am chasing pdp11s? Interesting directions.
For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be
required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted
a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some
minor C compiling, associated with that.
> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern
> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...?
I often use old DEC linear power supplies to run some of my antique radio
equipment. The power supplies themselves are not that much of an efficiency
thing, but the loads probably are. Minimizing unneeded loads on a home
system would be of merit. That is why I was wondering what sort of mininmal
box would do for home use, and still give some kind of reasonable service.
The electicity mongers need to be fed, but I don't need to treat them
to a full 7 course meal every day.
Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate
20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my
antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s?
> (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and
> "Frankenstein"...)
Don't worry, I still keep my ol' net asbestos flak suit hanging up in the
corner, for occasional donning.....(:+}}.... It is a little dusty.
It be faire windes and following seas about the net mostly, these days.
I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep
a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is
always a problem, anymore, especially in the deep south where silicon
valley ain't. You have to make do with what you can cobble together.
I find that I mix and mash parts from old surplus radio equipment,
computers, or whatever until I can make the thing work. That is as
much the fun of it as actually watching the platters whirr and spin.
> >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83
> >to run,
>
> How about an 11/44?
>
> >as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions
> >and data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is
> >suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which
> >are quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models.
What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11s?
There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never did
get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for that
CP/M thingie, instead.
> >Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as
> >many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better),
> >at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation
> >software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there
> >are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot
> >more for BSD.
What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember
the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in about
15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up.
What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles?
> >Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what
> >you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice
> >you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-)
I enjoy all the advice and comments.
Thanks to all for them.
Bob Keys
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Apr 16 01:22:57 1998
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Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
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Milo -
Hi.
> From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
>
> How about an 11/44?
Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the
one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here
doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding
of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a
11/73 (for QBUS).
The 11/84 and 94 will also work very well. Qbus models from the 11/53
on up will also work (the 53 hasn't actually been 'tested' but "should"
work, the 73, 83, 93 are all known to work).
While the 11/45 has the MMU aspects required (split I/D and supervisor
mode) it doesn't support enough memory. The 11/45 can only have 248kb
of memory and a full 2.11 kernel+networking+diskcache+datastructures
setup weighs in at almost 400kb
Steven
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On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential
> for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why
> are most of us here?)
> Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie
> sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how
> to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe
> to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via
> a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD
> sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk,
> and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator
> proper, might be feasible, maybe?
Yes, you want one of the emulator packages and a disk image for that. BTW, the
disk images I've seen don't have man pages, so you may want to download those
separately.
> Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often.
> What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7
> sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and
> chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some
> sort of machine together.
There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two
general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are
Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to
be smaller.
As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run,
as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and
data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is
suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are
quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models.
Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as
many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better),
at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation
software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there
are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot
more for BSD.
Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what
you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice
you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 15 13:09:26 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
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Subject: PDP-11 Addressing Modes
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The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor
handbook* states:
"In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through
the eight general purpose registers."
If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and
addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely
the PC. I think this is quite cool.
What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and
generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought
out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes
better or worse than those of other processors, past and present?
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 15 13:09:26 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important
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References: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> "Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?" (Apr 10, 22:40)
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> What about position-independent code?
Your query got me thinking about the various addressing modes
of the PDP-11 and how they might affect my brute force approach to
estimating floating point ops for C programs. Is this what you meant
when you asked about position independent code?
And yes, these addressing modes could mean the death knell for my
approach.
Index mode is definitely a problem as C programs seem to use r5 as a
frame pointer with both positive and *negative* 16 bit offsets (see
assembly language listing of my square root program below).
I don't think PC relative mode (e.g., clr addr) is a problem
(if the data segment follows the text, then the offsets would all be
positive and all less than the size of the program).
Is there such a thing as PC relative mode for the jmp op
code? In other words, can you make long + or -32K relative jumps on
the PDP-11? If so, this too could potentially confound my estimates.
.globl _absv
.text
_absv:
~~absv:
jsr r5,csv
~n=4
jbr L1
L2:clrf r0
cmpf 4(r5),r0
cfcc
jge L4
movf 4(r5),r0
negf r0
jbr L3
jbr L5
L4:movf 4(r5),r0
jbr L3
L5:L3:jmp cret
L1:jbr L2
.globl _mysqrt
.text
_mysqrt:
~~mysqrt:
jsr r5,csv
~n=4
jbr L6
L7:~g=177762
~err=177752
movf 4(r5),r0
divf $40400,r0
movf r0,-16(r5)
.data
L10000:77777;177776;177777;177777
.text
movf 4(r5),r0
divf L10000,r0
movf r0,-26(r5)
movf -16(r5),r0
movf r0,-(sp)
mov $L9,-(sp)
jsr pc,_printf
add $12,sp
L10:movf -16(r5),r0
mulf -16(r5),r0
subf 4(r5),r0
movf r0,-(sp)
jsr pc,_absv
add $10,sp
cmpf -26(r5),r0
cfcc
jgt L11
movf -16(r5),r0
mulf -16(r5),r0
addf 4(r5),r0
movf $40400,r1
mulf -16(r5),r1
divf r1,r0
movf r0,-16(r5)
movf -16(r5),r0
movf r0,-(sp)
mov $L12,-(sp)
jsr pc,_printf
add $12,sp
jbr L10
L11:movf -16(r5),r0
jbr L8
L8:jmp cret
L6:sub $20,sp
jbr L7
.globl _main
.text
_main:
~~main:
jsr r5,csv
jbr L13
L14:.data
L10001:77777;177776;177777;177777
.text
movf L10001,r0
movf r0,-16(r5)
~n=177762
movf -16(r5),r0
movf r0,-(sp)
jsr pc,_mysqrt
add $10,sp
movf r0,-(sp)
mov $L16,-(sp)
jsr pc,_printf
add $12,sp
L15:jmp cret
L13:sub $10,sp
jbr L14
.globl fltused
.globl
.data
L9:.byte 111,156,151,164,151,141,154,40,147,165,145,163,163,72
.byte 40,45,56,61,66,146,12,12,0
L12:.byte 147,165,145,163,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0
L16:.byte 12,115,171,40,163,161,165,141,162,145,40,162,157,157
.byte 164,40,151,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0
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Mahlzeit
According to Warren Toomey:
> I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
> me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
Then you still have the chance to get AU-0. :)
> P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
Because of the AT&T Unix computers?
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Apr 8 00:29:55 1998
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To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
References: <199804070551.PAA01173(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Hey, maybe you can be AU-0 after all. That's an excellent idea!
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> All,
> I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
> me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
>
> Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias,
> Paul P, Paul V, Steven
>
> Cheers,
> Warren
>
> P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
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>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Apr 8 01:12:14 1998
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From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
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Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
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I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was
a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given
the number of signatures on the petition.
Neil
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 08:07:19 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804072207.IAA02178(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:07:19 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804071512.JAA18391(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 09:12:14 am"
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In article by Neil Johnson:
> I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was
> a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given
> the number of signatures on the petition.
> Neil
Afert sleeping on it, and inspecting the bundle of 12 from Dion yesterday,
I see the AU-12 license is dated 16th March. Now I know SCO took their
license fee from my account on the 24th of March. Therefore I suspect that
licensing haven't passed the paperwork on to Dion, for those licenses
processed after the 16th March.
This probably indicates that there are more licenses still in the works.
I should get some mail from Dion today, and I'll pass on anything relevant.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 08:33:46 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804072233.IAA02379(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More licenses in the works
To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:33:46 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980407152602.02045(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 03:26:02 pm"
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In article by Dion Johnson:
> I just received 12 more licenses signed by the NJ legal folks.
> But yours was not in this batch.
> I will get these copied and off to you tomorrow (I think).
Thanks Dion, I know you're working hard there. It looks like legal are
the bottleneck.
Warren
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 13:25:33 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
In-reply-to: <199804070255.MAA00874(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <199804070248.WAA14210(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 10:48:17 pm"
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> Yeah, I haven't used the tape stuff much, mainly because of the muck
> around building the pre/postambles per record.
I've got perl scripts that do this. I'd be happy to donate them to
the archive if you're interested.
> An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1
>
> Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-)
Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator.
However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the
emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to
examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work
environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails
around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to
dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem.
Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk:
Ed
sim> att rl1 junk.dsk
RL: creating new file
sim> cont
# pwd
/
# tar cvf /dev/rrl1 *
tar: p: cannot open file
a bin/ac 20 blocks
a bin/ar 20 blocks
a bin/arcv 8 blocks
a bin/at 17 blocks
a bin/basename 4 blocks
a bin/login.old 18 blocks
a bin/cat 8 blocks
a bin/cb 11 blocks
a bin/cc 13 blocks
a bin/checkeq 9 blocks
a bin/chgrp 10 blocks
a bin/chmod 7 blocks
a bin/chown 10 blocks
a bin/clri 7 blocks
a bin/cmp 9 blocks
a bin/col 10 blocks
a bin/comm 10 blocks
a bin/cp 7 blocks
a bin/crypt 10 blocks
a bin/cu 14 blocks
a bin/date 12 blocks
a bin/dcheck 9 blocks
a bin/dd 14 blocks
a bin/deroff 18 blocks
a bin/df 7 blocks
a bin/diff 19 blocks
a bin/du 8 blocks
a bin/dump 17 blocks
a bin/dumpdir 16 blocks
a bin/echo 1 blocks
a bin/ed 22 blocks
a bin/egrep 18 blocks
a bin/expr 17 blocks
a bin/fgrep 11 blocks
a bin/file 13 blocks
a bin/find 22 blocks
a bin/graph 30 blocks
a bin/grep 12 blocks
a bin/icheck 14 blocks
a bin/iostat 22 blocks
a bin/join 12 blocks
a bin/kill 7 blocks
a bin/ld 22 blocks
a bin/ln 8 blocks
a bin/login 19 blocks
a bin/look 10 blocks
a bin/ls 20 blocks
a bin/mail 26 blocks
a bin/mesg 7 blocks
a bin/mkdir 8 blocks
a bin/mv 13 blocks
a bin/ncheck 10 blocks
a bin/newgrp 16 blocks
a bin/nice 9 blocks
a bin/nm 12 blocks
a bin/od 12 blocks
a bin/ps 19 blocks
a bin/passwd 17 blocks
a bin/pr 22 blocks
a bin/prof 22 blocks
a bin/v6sh 11 blocks
a bin/pstat 16 blocks
a bin/ptx 16 blocks
a bin/pwd 7 blocks
a bin/quot 19 blocks
a bin/random 13 blocks
a bin/ranlib 12 blocks
a bin/restor 24 blocks
a bin/rev 7 blocks
a bin/rm 10 blocks
a bin/rmdir 8 blocks
a bin/sa 23 blocks
a bin/size 8 blocks
a bin/sleep 6 blocks
a bin/sort 19 blocks
a bin/sp 5 blocks
a bin/spline 18 blocks
a bin/split 8 blocks
a bin/strip 8 blocks
a bin/stty 11 blocks
a bin/su 22 blocks
a bin/sum 8 blocks
a bin/sync 1 blocks
a bin/tail 4 blocks
a bin/tc 17 blocks
a bin/tee 3 blocks
a bin/test 6 blocks
a bin/time 11 blocks
a bin/tk 11 blocks
a bin/touch 6 blocks
a bin/tr 6 blocks
a bin/tsort 16 blocks
a bin/tty 6 blocks
a bin/uniq 9 blocks
a bin/units 19 blocks
a bin/vpr 16 blocks
a bin/wc 12 blocks
a bin/who 13 blocks
a bin/write 11 blocks
a bin/yes 5 blocks
a bin/1 1 blocks
a bin/calendar 1 blocks
a bin/diff3 1 blocks
a bin/false 1 blocks
a bin/lookbib 1 blocks
a bin/lorder 1 blocks
a bin/man 2 blocks
a bin/nohup 1 blocks
a bin/plot 1 blocks
a bin/spell 2 blocks
a bin/true 0 blocks
a bin/lint 1 blocks
a bin/notavail link to bin/lint
a bin/pcc link to bin/lint
a bin/struct link to bin/lint
a bin/adb 54 blocks
a bin/awk 89 blocks
a bin/bc 26 blocks
a bin/cptree 16 blocks
a bin/poke6 19 blocks
a bin/dc 45 blocks
a bin/em 36 blocks
a bin/enroll 31 blocks
a bin/eqn 56 blocks
a bin/m4 27 blocks
a bin/make 40 blocks
a bin/neqn 51 blocks
a bin/nroff 75 blocks
a bin/prep 14 blocks
a bin/ratfor 27 blocks
a bin/roff 17 blocks
a bin/sed 26 blocks
a bin/sh 34 blocks
a bin/tar 35 blocks
a bin/tbl 60 blocks
a bin/tp 20 blocks
a bin/xget 41 blocks
a bin/xsend 42 blocks
a bin/factor 6 blocks
a bin/primes 6 blocks
a bin/yacc 48 blocks
a bin/lex 57 blocks
a bin/tek 21 blocks
a bin/t300 20 blocks
a bin/t300s 20 blocks
a bin/t450 20 blocks
a bin/vplot 22 blocks
a bin/refer 58 blocks
a bin/as 11 blocks
a bin/ops 16 blocks
a bin/f77 link to bin/lint
a bin/vcopy 8 blocks
a bin/learn 1 blocks
a bin/notmade link to bin/learn
a bin/troff link to bin/learn
a bin/dfOLD 7 blocks
a bin/ls.11 16 blocks
a bin/.profile 1 blocks
a bin/ps.old 18 blocks
a bin/rmail link to bin/mail
a bin/m68k link to bin/false
a bin/u3b2 link to bin/false
a bin/pr.old 16 blocks
a boot 19 blocks
a dev/makefile 6 blocks
tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/tty is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/mem is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/kmem is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/null is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/mt0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/ttya is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/swap is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/ttye is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/nmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/tty2 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/tty3 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/tty4 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/nrmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/rl0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rl1 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rrl0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rrl1 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: etc: cannot open file
tar: global: cannot open file
tar: global.c: cannot open file
tar: global.s: cannot open file
tar: hello: cannot open file
tar: hello.c: cannot open file
tar: hello.s: cannot open file
tar: lib: cannot open file
tar: lost+found: cannot open file
tar: mnt: cannot open file
tar: mysqrt.c: cannot open file
tar: mysqrt.s: cannot open file
tar: normps: cannot open file
tar: nothing: cannot open file
tar: nothing.c: cannot open file
tar: nothing.s: cannot open file
tar: rkunix: cannot open file
tar: rl1unix: cannot open file
tar: stand: cannot open file
tar: tmp: cannot open file
tar: u1: cannot open file
tar: unix: cannot open file
tar: usr: cannot open file
#
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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CC: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
In-reply-to: <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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> How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
> the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are
addresses and data words. Have I left anything out?
I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs
would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to
generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest
program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510
bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!)
That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin
with 17 octal?
Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number.
Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability
of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1
in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes.
I examined the run time image of factor. It was 3072 bytes long, of
which 222 bytes or less than 10% appeared to be global data.
Counting immediate operands, I think it is reasonable to assume a
10-1 code to data ratio.
That would mean for factor that 2 of the 132 FPOs would be bogus
(111* 1/64 = 2 approx).
Most programs are bigger than factor, however. cptree and ops are
close to the average size (around 7800 bytes) for an executable in
the bin directory. So for the average program you might expect to
see 7800*.1*1/128 = 6 bogus FPOs.
"there are lies, damn lies and statistics"--Mark Twain (I think)
Ed G.
List of floating point ops by program:
awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ed 321
mail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
cu 282
diff 277
pr 275
poke6 275
sed 267
find 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
as 152
od 151
look 149
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
dd 141
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
cb 134
mv 134
comm 133
newgrp 133
dcheck 132
factor 132
rmdir 125
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
df 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
nice 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
cat 103
tail 103
sleep 101
stty 98
mkdir 98
mesg 96
cp 96
touch 96
strip 96
tty 91
chmod 90
split 90
uniq 89
pwd 86
rev 86
chown 84
chgrp 84
kill 83
arcv 83
yes 79
tr 58
sp 57
test 53
basename 34
tee 24
echo 4
sync 2
finddouble.pl 0
u3b2 0
1 0
f77 0
lint 0
finddouble.pl~ 0
true 0
spell 0
troff 0
notmade 0
nohup 0
diff3 0
learn 0
notavail 0
findfp.pl~ 0
lookbib 0
pcc 0
man 0
plot 0
m68k 0
false 0
findfp.pl 0
struct 0
lorder 0
calendar 0
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Message-Id: <199804080333.NAA03044(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Getting Files In/Out of PDP-11 Simulators
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:29 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26771(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 7, 98 11:25:33 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
[getting files in/out of PDP-11 simulators]
> > An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1
> > Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-)
>
> Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator.
>
> However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the
> emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to
> examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work
> environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails
> around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to
> dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem.
Some simulators open a truncated file, and then die once it gets to a
certain size. A solution here is to cp an existing big file over to the
desired disk image. It will, of course, be overwritten as you tar out
to the disk image.
Specific problems are touched on below:
> Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk:
> tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped
V7 tar cannot dump device files.
> tar: etc: cannot open file
Probably your disk image has been corrupted. Use /etc/fsck if it
exists, otherwise icheck, ncheck and dcheck. For instance, the Supnik
RL02 image has got a small, recoverable problem. The Supnik V7 RK05 image
seems to be completely stuffed, and fsck gives up on it.
I do have new images for these, and I should pass them on to Bob.
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Apr 8 14:03:57 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
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On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 23:25:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>> How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
>> the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
>
> Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
> decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
> some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
>
> Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
>
> (reasoning omitted)
You don't say whether you restricted your search to the text segment.
Anyway, at this point, I would have modified the script somewhat to
display the locations of the words, and then would have looked at the
text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
Greg
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:29 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> Considering that
> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
I know zip all about PDP-11 FP, but I know that when I was getting my
Apout V7 simulator working (which doesn't do FP, by the way), I had to
at least emulate setd, because crt0 in V7 starts with:
start:
setd
mov 2(sp),r0
clr -2(r0)
Warren
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Wed Apr 8 14:11:22 1998
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From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199804080411.OAA06388(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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> After some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx
numbers in the text image.
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 14:27:40 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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> text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain
library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the
floating point features of the routines are not used.
Consider this:
Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c
contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c
has nothing in its main loop.
Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script
===========================================
nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2
hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115
See what I mean?
Ed
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Apr 8 14:34:43 1998
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To: johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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> From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
>
> I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
> generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
Not quite 'always'. In some cases yes, relative addressing is
generated but quite frequently you'll see absolute addresses
used. Why? I don't know ;)
On some machines mode 3 is a bit faster than mode 6 but I doubt that
was the reason.
Steven Schultz
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Apr 8 15:15:08 1998
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To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:27:40 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>> text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
>> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
>> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
>
> My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain
> library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the
> floating point features of the routines are not used.
>
> Consider this:
>
> Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c
> contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c
> has nothing in its main loop.
>
> Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script
> ===========================================
> nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2
> hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115
>
> See what I mean?
I don't see that this proves anything. You really need to look at
those words and see how they are used.
Greg
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Apr 8 17:53:37 1998
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:53:37 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
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On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> > How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
> > the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
>
> Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
> decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
> some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
>
> Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
>
> It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are
> addresses and data words. Have I left anything out?
>
> I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs
> would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to
> generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest
> program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510
> bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!)
>
> That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin
> with 17 octal?
>
> Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number.
> Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability
> of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1
> in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes.
You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here.
1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not.
2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation
of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1.
3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range
240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode.
4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the
high four bits.
Of these four assumptions, the fourth is the most serious, and probably
the cause of most of your "hits". You'll have to do better...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 9 07:37:36 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804082137.HAA04236(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Have a safe Easter!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:37:36 +1000 (EST)
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Easter's here, I'm off to a friend's wedding. Have a safe & happy break, and
I'll see (hear?) from you all on Tuesday.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 9 07:43:42 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Yet more licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:43:42 +1000 (EST)
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----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
I have 13 more licenses for you, being copied now.
I will mail these off tomorrow or Friday.
Dion
----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
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>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Fri Apr 10 23:19:59 1998
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From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RE: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator - second one found
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:59 -0400
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A second bug has been found in the floating point emulator. The
first (in MODf) caused FACTOR to malfunction. This one causes problems
in AWK.
The bug is in LDEXP. In pdp11_fp.c:
case 015: /* LDEXP
*/
dst = (dstspec <= 07)? R[dstspec]: ReadW (GeteaW
(dstspec));
F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac);
fac.h = (fac.h & ~FP_EXP) | (((dst + FP_BIAS) &
FP_M_EXP) << FP_V_EXP);
newV = 0;
==> if ((dst > 0177) || (dst <= 0177600)) {
Change the indicated line to:
if ((dst > 0177) && (dst <= 0177600)) {
The test case is:
# awk 'END {print 1+2}' < /dev/null
incorrectly produced 0, now produces 3.
/Bob Supnik
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>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Fri Apr 10 23:50:56 1998
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From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: "'PUPS'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Question re TM11 boostrap
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:56 -0400
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Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
actually skips the first record and reads the second.
Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
Thanks /Bob Supnik
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Apr 11 02:35:38 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
To: Bob.Supnik(a)DIGITAL.com (Bob Supnik)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:35:38 -0800 (PDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
> has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
> jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
> actually skips the first record and reads the second.
It depends on which OS (and version) you're using, but most of
DEC's later OS's made some attempt to have bootable tapes be
ANSI-labeled volumes. This meant that the boot block had to come
after the VOL1 header. See, for example, the source code to
RT-11's DUP utility.
> Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
I certainly have some boot ROM's that I can disassemble. I'll
also check my DEC manuals for the toggle-in bootstraps.
I know that in some cases it was necessary to re-execute the toggle-in
bootstrap if the real boot block was the second file/record.
Also note that it wasn't until the late 70's/early 80's that DEC
adopted the "second block is the boot block" strategy. You're
likely to see different things depending on when a bootstrap was
written.
> What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
> particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
2.11 plays it safe by putting down two copies of the boot block at
the beginning of the tape, each ending with a filemark.
All Q-bus tape bootstraps that might reside in a 11/53's console firmware
would be looking for the boot block to be the second block on tape. But
as the TM11 wasn't a Q-bus device I don't think the 11/53 firmware is
going to resolve this issue.
A side comment on the emulator: Have you ever considered putting the
11/53 firmware into your emulator, so that users can use the bootstraps
and diagnostics built into it? Would there be copyright problems to
resolve before you could do this?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 11 02:01:24 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804101601.JAA14552(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
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Bob, et al -
> Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
> has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
For booting 2.xBSD that will work fine.
> jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
> actually skips the first record and reads the second.
True - and that's precisely why bootable tapes (at least starting with
2.9BSD, not sure about V7) have two copies of the tapebootblock at
the front. The layout of a boottape is:
tapeboot
tapeboot
boot
<filemark>
standaloneprogram 1
<filemark>
...
> Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
What I use (it's in the 2.11 setup documentation) is:
If no other means are available, the following code can be keyed in
and executed at (say) 0100000 to boot from a TM tape drive (the magic number
172526 is the address of the TM-11 current memory address register;
an adjustment may be necessary if your controller is at a nonstandard
address):
012700 (mov $unit, r0)
000000 (normally unit 0)
012701 (mov $172526, r1)
172526
010141 (mov r1, -(r1))
012741 (mov $60003, -(r1))
060003 (if unit 1 use 060403, etc)
000777 (br .)
This does nothing more than read the first record (much like V2.3a
already does) into location 0. Then a ^E is typed followed by
"g 0".
> What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
> particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
The tape bootblocks for 2.xBSD all know to skip TWO copies of the
tapebootblock in order to find the 'boot' program.
The actual standalone programs present differ between 2.9 and 2.11
but 2.11's is:
tapeboot
tapeboot
boot
<filemark>
disklabel
<filemark>
mkfs
<filemark>
restor
<filemark>
icheck
<filemark>
dump of root fs
<filemark>
For 2.11 the 'tapeboot' is a universal bootblock - it can handle
all 4 tape drive types (MS, MM, MT, TMSCP). 2.9 on the otherhand
has different tapebootblocks at the front of the tape depending on
the drive type (MS or MM/MT, no TMSCP support in 2.9). Thus if you
have a MS bootblock you can't boot from the tape on a MT based system.
Steven Schultz
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:35 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Subject: Bob's Magtape Vindicated-Unix to Blame!
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I described in an earlier post how uv7 tar would fail, extracting the
same file over and over again (see below for example).
It turns out that Bob's magtape works just fine: the problem is in
tar!
uv7 tar has a bug in it--a misplaced assignment--which causes it to
read the first block over and over (see below for example) when
used with the 'f' option.
The bug is indirectly a result of a trick tar uses to determine the
block size on the mag tape: rather than interrogate Unix about the
block size (can someone tell me how do this?), tar first attempts to
read the maximum block size supported by tar (20*512 bytes). The
number of bytes actually returned is taken to be the actual block
size and is used by tar for reads thereafter.
Two simple workarounds for /dev/rmt0 are:
tar vx0
and
tar vxfb /dev/rmt0 1
The problem:
# tar vxf /dev/rmt0
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
etc.
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:34 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:34 -0400
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
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I'd like to thank everyone who wrote me on this subject,
and especially those described the weaknesses they saw in my
reasoning.
I have found it useful sometimes to take a step back and reconsider
what it is I am trying do and how I am trying to do it.
My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities
rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact
"right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough.
At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to
me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to
count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar
utility. What do you all think?
> You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here.
>
> 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not.
I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate?
As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is
relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file.
This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the
runtime image consisted of static data.
> 2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation
> of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1.
You are absolutely right. Thank you for pointing this out.
> 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range
> 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode.
My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would
apply.
> 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the
> high four bits.
This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I
don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much.
Ed
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:35 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:35 -0400
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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> I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
> generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
> earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx
> numbers in the text image.
I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about
this.
In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch
instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick
skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would
be a problem because:
1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128,
127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at
the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the
odd byte.
2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem
because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they
always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never
be followed by a negative number.
Ed
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>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Tue Apr 14 01:21:45 1998
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From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
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To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
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I have booted a TMB11 with a simple program to load the first record into block
0. The tape must be rewound to BOT, then the program at location 0 run. I
don't think the 9301 bootstrap actually skips the first record. Hope this
helps.
Neil
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 14 20:23:21 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804141023.UAA09911(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More licenses have arrived!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:23:21 +1000 (EST)
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All, The latest batch of licenses has arrived from Dion at SCO:
Stefan Bieschewski, Robin Birch, W. Bulte, Anthony Duell,
Alexander Duerrschnabel, Kevin Dunlap, Arno Griffioen, Neil Johnson,
Greg Lehey, Kirk McKusick, Joseph Myers, Carl Phillips, Jason Wells
As always, if you want access to the on-line PUPS Archive, or a copy
on tape/CD, then email your request to pupsarchive(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au.
You will receive a form reply, and we will process it as soon as possible.
Note that we won't start burning the first CDs until around the 21st April.
If you want on-line access, I will need a fax number or a PGP key so that
I can mail you the access details, with a moderate amount of security. I
won't accept PGP keys via email. I'll accept keys via finger, web page,
key signing service, etc. Please include the method to obtain your key
in your email request above.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Apr 15 04:44:16 1998
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From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199804141844.OAA03748(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
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Greetings to the list, and thanks to Warren for telling me about it.
I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential
for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why
are most of us here?)
Sadly, my only experiences with PDP-11ish things are so long ago as to
be rather faded. We used one box (two small chassis about 8 inches high
stacked together -- possibly PDP-8 or PDP-11) as some sort of remote job
entry terminal that the grad students would be occasionally allowed to
touch and load their SAS jobs up from (mid 70's) to the mainframe at
Iowa State U. I remember the two DEC boxes and some sort of glass tty,
and a paper tape reader that was used to boot it in some way, should
the woeful grad student crash it late at night. That got me rather
interested in computers and for several years after that time when I
came to NCSU, I tried all kinds of ways to fund and coerce some sort
of Heathkit version of that with some sort of early unix out of the
powers that be, but they tended to think it was computing and not
agronomy, so I wound up doing that with z80's and s-100 bus crates that
could be hooked up to the mainframe remotely via CP/M and paper tape or
81K floppies locally. But, that has always perked my interest in the
old unix beasts. I still have the old pdp-11 Heathkit manual sets and
builders instructions, should I find one in the bilges somewhere....(:+}}...
Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie
sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how
to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe
to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via
a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD
sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk,
and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator
proper, might be feasible, maybe?
Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often.
What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7
sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and
chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some
sort of machine together.
Thanks, and any comments for the newbie are appreciated.
Bob Keys
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
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