- TUHS - www.tuhs.org

by Bill Gunshannon

Although some here may recognize me from the PDP-11 newsgroups, I am a new member of the mailing list. And I come with a problem right off the bat!! Is there anyone here who can give me hand figuring out how to get more than 1M of memory working on an 11/23+ and an 11/73?? This has me pulling my hair out!! I have a couple of M7551 4M modules but can't seem to make them work beyond setting them for 1M. I have Ultrix-11 3.1 running (even with TCPIP!) and really would like to get more memory so I can make them functional rather than just running. Is there anyone here who can offer any help. And as long as I have everyones attention, anyone here who knows anything about the H777 power supply in the 11/24?? I've got a dead one and I really miss my only UNIBUS machine. Come to think of it, it would run ULTRIX-11 pretty good as well if I could revive it. Any help greatly appreciated. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

24 years, 5 months

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[pups] BSD2.11 Floating Point Simulator

by Robin Birch

Dear All, I am currently looking at making the 2.11 FP simulator work. Unfortunately I don't have a non floating point PDP to check things on. Can some one who has please try running some FP code on the Generic Kernel for 2.11 and let me know what happens. I am slowly going through the code but some symptoms would be useful. regards Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome

24 years, 7 months

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[pups] 9 track reelers on MVII.... will an IBM differential drive work?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

On a lark, my ol' propeller headed beanie was whirring, again, today. Problem: how to use old IBM differential scsi reel tape deck to make reel tapes for antique unix.... Discussion: I picked up a perfectly fine looking IBM 9348-001 differential scsi interface tape deck from an AS400 box. I had thought of using a differential to single-ended scsi converter, but, they are a tad dear for this olde man's beer bellie peanut computer budget. Thinking there had to be some other way of making use of this deck to write some fine old reels, I saw, buried deep in the pdp-11 cards list a differential tape card by Dilogic, and though... hmmm, can the old MVII crank out to the 9 track via such a card? Solutions: anyone have any insights on trying something like this or know if such a shennanigan will work? Are there any other such differential scsi cards available that might work? Anyone got such a critter gathering dust? Is this really a scsi card or is it some other interface? Thanks Bob

24 years, 7 months

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Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to > fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB > at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 > paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. > > Steven Schultz > sms(a)to.gd-es.com Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but maybe something will surface). Anyway... for the sake of discussion, and general dumpster diving knowledge.... 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to work on a PDP-11? 2. Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?). I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus, as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates. IF I can find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info to have handy, whilst dumpster diving. At a buck or two a chassis, it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save. I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types. Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use? Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used? I vaguely remember some notes on some of this somewhere. Any urls or pointers thereto would be appreciated. Thanks Bob Keys rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA99702 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:17:44 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 7 months

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Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> Hi Bob - Hello..... > > From: rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu > > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort > > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but > > Interesting. I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would > be too hard to find. Most of the PDP stuff has long since been surplussed, and I have trolled the local newsfeeds but nothing seems to turn up. VAXen are the usual fare, since PDP's were not that common around here. The RTP NC area did not really get big into computering until the VAX era. > > 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > > work on a PDP-11? > > Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two. > > > 2. Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?). > > Oh yes! But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller. They > are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*. Not as expensive as > they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that > with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my > explanation this was for a 'hobby'). Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog > controllers will run around $500-900. I fell into a MVII yesterday that has a Dilog controller. Is that the one you are talking about? If so, that could be a lucky find. Here's a crazy, but possible thought.... can I write 211BSD drives from a MicroVAX II and move the card/drives over to the PDP-11 and have a reasonable expectation that they will work, or at least boot to a root or a miniroot or such? It is a long shot, but if I am just dd'ing images, it might work, I would think. One of my goals with the MVII is to use it to write 9 track tapes, IFF I can lay hands on one of several 9 trackkers in surplus in the next few weeks. They were originally used on a local VAXsystem 5400 crate and are single ended scsi Ciphers. Could they be used on a PDP-11, too? > Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside > is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other > folks are tossing otu because they're too small. The older ~300MB > and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in > a PDP-11 environment. Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah > on an 11 ;) I have plenty of the RZ55/56/57/58ish things that have popped up in surplus that I am using on my VAXstation toyz. All the PeeCee types avoid them like the plague, and I truck them out by the handfull. MooU was big on those and DS5000/200 crates. They are now hitting surplus quite frequently. > One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is: > > http://www.ficompinc.com > > > I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem > > to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types. > > > > Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use? > > At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was > the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB > Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives. I had one of those, too, a few months back, but stripped the MVI it came out of, without thinking of hanging onto that card. Minus two points for me. Someone else was lucky that day.....(:+}}... > > Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used? > > Definitely. Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the > Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go. I have half a dozen of these early Sun drives in storage, so that is good to know, and I did save the 650mb esdi drive from the MVI, thinking I could use it on a Sun, but never got around to it. > Steven Schultz > sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Thanks for the tidbits folks! Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06738 for pups-liszt; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> Thu Oct 12 18:11:06 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06734 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA93998 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:52:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05927 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:02:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.54.101] (helo=freebie.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #2) id 13joXg-0003AX-00; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:01:28 +0000 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.demon.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C8B6o18660; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> To: rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use? Message-ID: <20001012101105.B18613(a)freebie.demon.nl> References: <200010110012.RAA13052(a)moe.2bsd.com> <200010111429.KAA23987(a)uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200010111429.KAA23987(a)uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>; from rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu on Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko(a)freebsd.org Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400, rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu wrote: > > It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to > > fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB > > at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 > > paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. > > > > Steven Schultz > > sms(a)to.gd-es.com > > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but > maybe something will surface). Anyway... for the sake of discussion, > and general dumpster diving knowledge.... > > 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > work on a PDP-11? RD53 is a Micropolis 1375 (eh, no the MFM variant of it.. 75 is SCSI. Maybe 1325??). RD54 is a Maxtor or Newbury data drive. I can look up the details if needed. As far as MFM drives go I would not consider anything smaller than a 53. -- Wilko Bulte wilko(a)freebsd.org Arnhem, the Netherlands Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06732 for pups-liszt; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:34 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 7 months

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Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com

Bob Keys wrote: >1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > work on a PDP-11? Perhaps the number one most frequently asked question on this list :-). See http://ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/th… for Terry Kennedy's excellent collection of DECUServe articles with lots of juicy details about using non-DEC MFM drives and floppy drives on DEC RQDXn controllers. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA99851 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:39:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 7 months

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Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?

by Martijn van Buul

*whoops*. I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much relying on procmail, I suppose. Steven M. Schultz wrote: > It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)? There were numerous "MicroPDP" > systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not > run 2.11BSD It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD. > What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under? Micro/RSX > I do not believe Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used > when writing the files that make up the "boot tape". Do you have any > development facilities on the currently running system? If so then it > might be possible to write a program to create a tape from the files > brought over via kermit. There is a Macro-assembler, and reportedly a PASCAL compiler. However, my Micro/RSX skills (let alone -programming skills) should be considered rudimentary - the only resource I have is the on-line helpfile (which isn't very clear every now and then). > If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies > to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to > get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP. A single RX33 can easily hold the > standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and > it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump. The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two MFM disks, and how I got Kermit running). And yes, I have a Minix-VMD box with a 5.25" HD drive. For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available hardware: KJD11-D/S (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party 21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card. (Well, that's what I have installed right now. I do have some other cards, including a DRV11-J "Hi-density parallell line unit" and some strange VG-Electronics cards (which they claim are specific to surface analysis)) And a spare TK50 mechanic.. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89483 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:01:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> Wed Oct 11 07:20:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89479 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:01:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA86567 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:02:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA89039 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:18:58 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.54.101] (helo=freebie.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #4) id 13j6mm-000Msu-00; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:18:08 +0000 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.demon.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9ALKBR08942; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:20:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:20:11 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Message-ID: <20001010232011.A8918(a)freebie.demon.nl> References: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl>; from pino(a)dohd.org on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko(a)freebsd.org Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200, Martijn van Buul wrote: > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? Well... you can borrow one of my TK50s with 2.11 on it ;-) -- Wilko Bulte wilko(a)freebsd.org Arnhem, the Netherlands Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89462 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:00:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> Wed Oct 11 00:30:24 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89458 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:00:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA86549 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:02:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scapa.cs.ualberta.ca (root(a)scapa.cs.ualberta.ca [129.128.4.44]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA86250 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:31:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca) Received: (from localhost user: 'mark' uid#150 fake: goodfare.cs.ualberta.ca) by scapa.cs.ualberta.ca id <S433793AbQJJOaZ>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:25 -0600 Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> from Martijn van Buul at "Oct 9, 2000 03:39:36 pm" From: Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:24 -0600 (MDT) CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20001010143026Z433793-12555+100(a)scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Ahoy! > > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? If you need a TK50 with 2.11 on it I could produce one for you (provided that you have jumped through all the license hoops). The only sticky point might be shipping, where are you located? I'm travelling a lot this month, so it may take a week or so to get it done. -- Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA90520 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:24:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 11 10:12:18 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA90516 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:24:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA87119 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:26:04 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA90503 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:23:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13052 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010110012.RAA13052(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > *whoops*. > > I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much > relying on procmail, I suppose. ;) > It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD. Indeed it should be able to. I personally have not done so but the processor/mmu meet all the criteria and 1.5MB is perfect. > The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two I have a "RX33" on my 11/73 so I can create a boot disk and the root filesystem dump (split over 3 or 4 1.2MB disk images). > For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available > hardware: Ah, thanks! That answers some other questions I was going to ask ;) > KJD11-D/S (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party > 21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB > MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy > drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card. It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com

24 years, 7 months

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[pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?

by Martijn van Buul

Ahoy! I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably not. Any hints? Kind regards, Martijn. [1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA80663 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Tue Oct 10 08:46:18 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA80659 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA81255 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:48:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA80647 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA26636; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:46:19 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:46:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1001010004455.25207B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Martijn van Buul wrote: > Ahoy! > > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? Perhaps you should start by telling what you have running on the PDP-11 right now? Both software and hardware wise. > [1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" > persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local > user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual > drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize > the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and > threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot. Wow. Impressive stupidity! Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA82929 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Oct 10 14:36:03 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82925 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:20 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA83764 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:41:35 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82907 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:39:03 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01412; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010100436.VAA01412(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pino(a)dohd.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greetings - > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)? There were numerous "MicroPDP" systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not run 2.11BSD > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under? I do not believe Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used when writing the files that make up the "boot tape". Do you have any development facilities on the currently running system? If so then it might be possible to write a program to create a tape from the files brought over via kermit. > Any hints? First shoot the individuals mentioned in [1]? ;) If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP. A single RX33 can easily hold the standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump. The bad part is that the GENERIC kernel lacks networking due to space contraints. Someone would have to create a custom kernel+ networking root filesystem and create 3 or 4 RX33 images to be dd'd out to floppies. Then, once a networking based root filesystem was loaded it should be possible to get pull the remaining data over the network with a "rsh ... | tar ..." command. Much depends on the ability to create floppy disks from images on a PC that can be read on the RX33 which the PDP-11 has. If that works then the rest will be timeconsuming (and the install instructions will of course be heavily modified ;)) but at least possible. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

24 years, 7 months

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Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > revision 1.1 > > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10; author: nsayer; state: Exp; > > Add the tap driver. > > Ah well, I still haven't used it. Neither have I ;) I thought (for 30 seconds or less) about porting it to BSD/OS - it's not that big and didn't appear to be overly tricky. Only reason I knew about 'tap' was that P11 has support for it and a pointer where to fetch 'tap' from. > > The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is... > > I did that with a static route entry. Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static route. In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't add a static route if I wanted to. Having the host system 'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation. > As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more detail. Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping. > Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file > system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others Ouch! On the 11 side? Or on the hosting system's side? Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA53881 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:12:11 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Jay Jaeger <cube1(a)home.com> Fri Oct 6 12:25:17 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53877 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:12:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA66088 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:13:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from mail1.rdc1.il.home.com (mail1.rdc1.il.home.com [24.2.1.76]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA53111 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:42:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from cube1(a)home.com) Received: from ddjay.home.com ([24.10.213.208]) by mail1.rdc1.il.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001006024207.JBOT7359.mail1.rdc1.il.home.com(a)ddjay.home.com> for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:42:07 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005212349.06086580@cirithi> X-Sender: cube1@cirithi X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 21:25:17 -0500 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (UNIX Heritage Society Digest) From: Jay Jaeger <cube1(a)home.com> Subject: [pups] Re: UNIX Heritage Society Digest V1 #137 In-Reply-To: <200009241945.GAA72267(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I had to replace the RS 423 drives on my PDP-11/24 and in the connected VT-100 terminal after a problem on a PC clobbered the 11/24 console ports which in turn clobbered the VT-100 some time ago. --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1(a)home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA53897 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:14:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Oct 6 13:35:03 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53893 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:14:06 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA66113 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:15:42 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA53333 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:35:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e963Z3N21875; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:05:03 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:05:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001006130503.A21828(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010051642.JAA03467(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010051642.JAA03467(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:42:05AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 5 October 2000 at 9:42:05 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >>> The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is... >> I did that with a static route entry. > > Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander > around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static > route. In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't > add a static route if I wanted to. Having the host system > 'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation. > >> As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. > > Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more > detail. Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I > can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet > if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping. I don't know the details either, unfortunately. I really need to find some time to get the thing running again. >> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file >> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others > > Ouch! On the 11 side? Or on the hosting system's side? On the 11 side. I'm not sure what happened, but it looks like it. It's not a big deal, since I have backups somewhere. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 7 months

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Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Frank Wortner

Just to let everyone know, Stephen Schultz was right: I needed arp table entries as he described.` Thanks to him and Greg Lehey for their useful replies. Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA44035 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> Thu Oct 5 04:37:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA44023 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA61588 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:02:39 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA43020 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 05:37:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from frank(a)wortner.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12733487A4 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) with ESMTP id OAA22748 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: panix3.panix.com: frank owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> X-Sender: frank(a)panix3.panix.com To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010041418140.20682-100000(a)panix3.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk This is just an FYI for anyone playing with the Begemot P11 emulator ... The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz. While this corresponds to AC line frequency in many parts of the world, it is not correct for the U.S., where 60 Hz is the norm. Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the U.S., the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock also. When the software and "hardware" disagree on clock rates, problems happen. My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered the 50 Hz clock rate. After I changed it to 60, the emulator's time was remarkably accurate! If you want to change the default clock rate, you can do so in the source (look for the symbol "clock_rate" in "main.c"), or you can just add set clock_rate 60 into your p11conf file. This will override the default in the emulator program. Have fun -- I certainly am! :-) Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA44015 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:13 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Oct 5 01:24:07 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA44011 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:11 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA61560 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:01:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA42100 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:40:33 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19559 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > No, that wasn't me. FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver. Do you mean > Frank? Sure it does. The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so ;) Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time) as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site. > > The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's > > side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. > > I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all. tun is a point-to-point > interface. The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated 11 via the P11 hosting system. If the hosting system doesn't publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets to the machine running P11. > > I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. > > I don't think it can. I think Harti used some magic there. I know it can't - I asked him about it :) That's when I first discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated 11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a response to its ARP request. On the hosting side it would be possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA44583 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Oct 5 08:27:58 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA44579 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:48 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA62065 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:40:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA44571 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21951 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010042227.PAA21951(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> > The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz. While this corresponds to AC line > frequency in many parts of the world, it is not correct for the > U.S., where 60 Hz is the norm. Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the > U.S., the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock Yes, the bootable 2.11 distribution assumes a 60Hz clock. That is easily changed though for folks that live in 50Hz areas. Edit the kernel config file and change LINEHZ to 50. The rest of the system has been changed to ask the kernel for the clockrate so there shouldn't be any compiled in assumptions outside the kernel (if I overlooked any let me know and I'll fix it). > My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered > the 50 Hz clock rate. After I changed it to 60, the emulator's time was > remarkably accurate! Indeed it is accurate. Earlier versions of P11 would lose time very rapidly if the PDP-11 was "busy" - but the latest version of P11 is fantastic at keeping time. If you run 'ntpd' on the 11 the time stays even closer to "real". Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA46919 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:03:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Oct 5 13:03:25 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA46914 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:03:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA63282 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:04:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA45823 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:03:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e9533Pt12494; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:33:25 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:33:25 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001005123324.C12234(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 08:24:07AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 4 October 2000 at 8:24:07 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > >> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> >> No, that wasn't me. FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver. Do you mean >> Frank? > > Sure it does. The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so ;) > Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time) > as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site. I stand corrected: > revision 1.1 > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10; author: nsayer; state: Exp; > Add the tap driver. > > The tap driver is used to present a virtual Ethernet interface to the > system. Packets presented by the network stack to the interface are > made available to a character device in /dev. With tap and the bridge > code, you can make remote bridge configurations where both sides of > the bridge are separated by userland daemons. > > This driver also has a special naming hack to allow it to serve a similar > purpose to the vmware port. > > Submitted by: myevmenkin(a)att.com, vsilyaev(a)mindspring.com Ah well, I still haven't used it. >>> The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's >>> side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. >> >> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all. tun is a point-to-point >> interface. > > The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is > so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated > 11 via the P11 hosting system. If the hosting system doesn't > publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets > to the machine running P11. I did that with a static route entry. >>> I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. >> >> I don't think it can. I think Harti used some magic there. > > I know it can't - I asked him about it :) That's when I first > discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated > 11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a > response to its ARP request. On the hosting side it would be > possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that > and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY. As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others have the rest running, it's obviously nothing fundamental. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 7 months

1
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[pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Frank Wortner

I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's not working. My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in /etc/hosts to match my LAN, run mkhosts to rebuild /etc/hosts.dir and /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted. On the P11 front, I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros -- just like the P11 README file said, made sure that I had a tun driver configured in my FreeBSD system, and started P11. Then I did an ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up Running ifconfig on the host confirmed that things *seemed* to be OK: # ifconfig tun0 tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 Opened by PID 32199 The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only in the last octet. Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. Everything looks OK from inside: # ifconfig qe0 qe0: flags=63<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING> inet emulator-IP-address netmask ffff0000 broadcast Bcast-IP What am I missing? Thanks in advance, Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA36466 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:49:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Oct 4 09:47:22 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA36462 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:49:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA58459 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:51:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA36453 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:48:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e93NlMb05692; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:17:22 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:17:22 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>, Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org> Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001004091722.C1760(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000(a)panix2.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000(a)panix2.panix.com>; from frank(a)wortner.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:02:17PM -0400 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 16:02:17 -0400, Frank Wortner wrote: > I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for > the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's > not working. There's a bug. It used to work, and *something* changed. I've been meaning to look at it, but it's currently waiting on the tuit queue. > My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under > FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, > installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in > /etc/hosts to match my LAN, run mkhosts to rebuild /etc/hosts.dir and > /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted. > > On the P11 front, I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros -- > just like the P11 README file said, made sure that I had a tun driver > configured in my FreeBSD system, and started P11. I know the README says this will work, but I haven't been able to get it to work that way. Somewhere I have a real image; I'll see if I can find it. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA36700 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:12:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 4 10:11:10 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA36696 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:12:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA58613 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:13:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA36682 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:11:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09035; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> > > I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for > the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's... > > My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under > FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, > installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in... > > ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up > > # ifconfig tun0 > tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 > inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb > inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 > Opened by PID 32199 > > The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only > in the last octet. > > Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside > world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the > outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. > What am I missing? You're missing ARP. 'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass thru the 'if_tun' driver. I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely. What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will want to talk to In /etc/netstart on the 11 side just after the 'ifconfig' lines: ifconfig qe0 inet netmask $netmask $hostname broadcast $broadcast up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 # ifconfig sl0 inet 192.254.254.2 192.254.254.1 -arp -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 # slattach /dev/ttyS6 9600 # Next line needed when running under the Begemot emulator arp -s 206.139.202.1 "0:0:c:3d:e9:f7" pub arp -s 206.139.202.51 "0:a0:24:78:9c:21" pub arp -s 206.139.202.200 "0:90:27:88:64:74" pub arp -s 206.139.202.201 "08:0:2b:f:5b:a6" pub arp -s 206.139.202.209 "0:40:5:a4:72:27" pub ifconfig lo0 inet localhost up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 Typically you only need the ARP info for the hosting system and the default gateway. Oh, there's a bug in P11 that after 25 days of calendar up time the clock on the 11 basically stops ticking. I've a fix I came up with (and submitted to the author) but it'll be a couple weeks until I know for sure if it's the right fix (32bit overflow in a calculation). Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA37363 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:35:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Oct 4 11:29:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37359 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:35:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA58957 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:37:01 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37319 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:29:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e941TBk07853; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001004105911.H7292(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:11:10PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 17:11:10 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi -- > >> From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> >> >> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for >> the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's... >> >> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under >> FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, >> installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in... >> >> ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up >> >> # ifconfig tun0 >> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 >> inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb >> inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 >> Opened by PID 32199 >> >> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only >> in the last octet. >> >> Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside >> world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the >> outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. >> What am I missing? > > You're missing ARP. > > 'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass > thru the 'if_tun' driver. > > I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as > FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely. > > What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with > the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will > want to talk to I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running. I did set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route through that interface. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA37613 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:10:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 4 11:59:45 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA37609 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:10:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA59086 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:12:18 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA37598 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:09:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09659; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010040159.SAA09659(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: grog(a)lemis.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Cc: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running. I did > set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route > through that interface. I thought you mentioned using the 'tap' driver rather than 'tun' at one time. If my memory hasn't failed me that would explain why it worked since 'tap' passes ARP traffic. The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. Just after ifconfig'ing tun0 up use the hosting system's mac address: ifconfig tun0 206.139.202.200 206.139.202.203 up arp -s shemp 0:90:27:88:64:74 pub I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. Without ARP on an ethernet I am not aware of any 'routing' that can fill in the mac addresses in the ethernet packets. Try pub'ing the arp entries and see if that works. Might try 'tap' instead of 'tun' if you're looking for something else to try. Steven Schultz

24 years, 7 months

1
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[pups] Re: RL02 discs

by Warren Toomey

In article by Netguru: > A friend of mine has some Digital RL02 > discs. > > We had the PDP/11 running at a TV station from > 1987 to 1992. > > The maintenence port was surged and the console > terminal wouldn't respond after that. > > The entire system is intact ; > 1-PDP/11 frame > 3-RL02 drives > 18-RL02 33MB discs with many archives on them > 5-vt52 terms > > he needs some parts to get it running / or > some tech info on how to get the data off the discs > (prefer access to a card for the PDP/11) > > anyway I think we all could benefit from this old system > coming to life !! > > Sincerely William Castle > Technology Integration Consultant > CCS - Kalkaska Michigan U.S.A. Hi William, I'll pass this on to a PDP-11 Unix mailing list for some ideas. You might also like to try the Usenet newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11, vmsnet.pdp-11. Cheers, Warren

24 years, 8 months

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[pups] Identifying old computers (was: [no subject])

by Greg Lehey

On Friday, 18 August 2000 at 13:37:39 -0500, Spoof wrote: > Hello! Sorry, this languished in my inbox for a while because it didn't have a recognizable subject. I don't recognize the machines, either, but maybe somebody on the PUPS list does. Greg > If you are receiving this email, it is because I found your name during a > websearch about 'classic computing'. At any rate, I have obtained two > computers and I'd like to find out what they are. if you could help me > identfy them i would greatly appreciate it. I was told by the source of > these computers (who seemed very convinvced) that they were PDP-4 > computers. Every site I've seen that covers the pdp-4 says that there were > only about 50 of them ever sold. However, Digital's own site does mention > that some were sold for nuclear applications, and the computers I got were > indeed from a nuclear lab. > > The thing is, there doesnt seem to be any mention of "Digital" or the PDP > name anywhere. > > I'll describe the computers: > > One looks newer, it says "Tracor Northern TN-1610" on the faceplate. It > has 18 ligts across the face and 18 switches directly below, in a bank > labeled "Switch Register". There is another bank of 6 ligts labeled "RUN, > CPU BUS, VIRT, PWR, BUS, USER" > There is a small bank of 3 switches labeled ADDR/DATA, PHYS/VIRT, and INTR. > There is a last bank of 6 switches labelled LOAD ADDR, EXAM, CONT, > ENAB/HALT, START, LOAD DATA. There is also a power switch. > On the bottom of the faceplate is a logo raised in plastic which I didn't > understand until I looked inside the case and found a circuit board which > said "California Data Procesors" (the logo said "CDP" in a funky '60s > style), I've never heard of CDP- perhaps I heard "PDP4" when he actually > said "CDP-4"? > > The second computer looks older. (1960's vs. 1970s). > It's faceplate says "ND812" and "Nuclear Data Inc". There is a rotating > switch labelled "Select Register" with the following positions: Status, S, > R, K, J, Address, PC, External. > There is a keyswitch with three postions: Power off, Power on, Control off. > There is a bank of 12 lights, labelled "Selected Register", the lights are > labelled 0-11 and an extra (13th) light labeled "Overflow". > > There is another bank of 12 lights, labeled "memory Register", again > labeled 0-11. Next to it is a pair of lights labeled "Memory Field" 0 or 1. > next to that is another pair of lights labeled "Run" and "Interrupt. > > Under the lights is a bank of 12 switches labeled "Switch Register". > > There are two switches simply labeled 0 and 1. > > There are two switches labeled Start and Stop > > Another two switches labeled Load AR and Load MR > > Another two labeled Next Word and Cont > > And another two labeled Step and Instr > > > The older computer seems put together in a complicated sort of way (stacked > PCB's wired together) whereas the newer one is more modular (I.E. large > cards that are simply slide in and out of sockets.) > > Both seem to have core memory but it's arranged in such a way that I can't > actually see it with out breaking some paper seals which I dont want to do > unless necessary. The parts of the boards that I can see have intricate > patterns that seem to indicate core memory (plus the guy told me that they > both used core mem). > > I have a (kind of lousy) digital camera and i can take pictures of the > faceplates if you think this might help in your identification. > > As I said, both were in use in a lab. The older one has a set of two tape > drives (they look to be regular audio cassette size) and the newer one has > one tape drive. However I was supplied with piles of punched tape programs > (i guess there was a tape reader with these computers at some point?) i was > given a lot of documentation but most of it has "NDI" written on it and it > is about taking nuclear data measurements. > Both are in large rackmount cases (which I don't have) and were mounted > with other equipment. > > > I'm interested to know what these computers are, how much they cost when > new, and what their capabilities are. Supposedly they were replaced by a > single $4000 MCI interface card in a PC. > > If you have no idea but you think you know someone who might, please do not > hesitate to suggest that person to me. > > Thank you for taking the time to read this email. > > -Kev > > > _____________________________________________ > Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! > http://www.MyOwnEmail.com > -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 8 months

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[pups] mystery LSI-11 heath H11 board

by Aaron J. Grier

an electrician came in to my place of employment last week and installed some new lighting in the "engineering junkyard" which was previously a very dark place. The new light prompted me to do some exploring, and in doing so, I spotted a heath H11! unfortunately, it looks like the case has been stripped, as only one half-height board remains in the cardcage. The handle is labeled "Heath Serial I/O." I threw it on a flatbed scanner and the pictures are here: http://www.poofygoof.com/~agrier/lsi11f.jpg http://www.poofygoof.com/~agrier/lsi11b.jpg Is this one of heathkit's almost-like-DEC-but-not-quite boards? -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier(a)poofygoof.com

24 years, 9 months

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[pups] Needed 2.11BSD 9-track boot tapes

by Gregory R. Travis

What I have: 11/83, QBUS, 2MB, DH11, running RT-11 5.04 plus TSX - Kermit is installed on the machine 2x CDC 384MB SMD disks attached to Emulex Controller emulating MSCP 1 DigiData 800/1600 BPI 9-track drive attached to TM-11 emulating controller What I need: Way to get 2.11BSD onto one of the CDC drives (preferably not to one with RT-11). How I can do that: 1. Kermit transfer of 2.11BSD images to RT-11 q1. Is there a way to then transfer from RT-11 to one of the CDC disks? q2. Is there a way to then transfer from RT-11 to tape images on the DigiData? 2. A kind soul sends me a set of 9-track 2.11BSD tapes with boot images. 3. Other? Any takers? Thanks! greg Gregory Travis Cornerstone Information Systems ATS greg(a)ciswired.com 812 330 4361 ext. 18 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA56396 for pups-liszt; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:34:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Aug 14 11:30:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA56392 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:34:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22875 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:35:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA56383 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:33:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18988 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:30:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200008140130.SAA18988(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: [pups] Needed 2.11BSD 9-track boot tapes Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> > What I have: > > 11/83, QBUS, 2MB, DH11, running RT-11 5.04 plus TSX > - Kermit is installed on the machine > 2x CDC 384MB SMD disks attached to Emulex Controller emulating MSCP > 1 DigiData 800/1600 BPI 9-track drive attached to TM-11 emulating > controller It wouldn't happen to be an Emulex UC07 or UC08 would it? If so there are a couple possibilities that open up. > How I can do that: > 1. Kermit transfer of 2.11BSD images to RT-11 Slow but sure - the sum total of data to move is close to 80mb > q1. Is there a way to then transfer from RT-11 to one > of the CDC disks? I don't think RT-11 understands the 2.11BSD filesystem so I don't think this approach can be made to work. > q2. Is there a way to then transfer from RT-11 to tape > images on the DigiData? This can be made to work but it depends on having a program that can transfer the the files "bytes as bytes" (no record format interpretation, etc) _and_ handle multiple blocking factors on the first tape. If you have the PDP-11 volume of the archives you should see in the PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD directory two files called 'maketape.c' and 'maketape.data'. It's a small program and if a counterpart to that could be created for RT-11 you'd be all set to go. The layout of the first tape normally is: mtboot+mtboot+boot (512 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> disklabel (1024 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> mkfs (1024 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> restor (1024 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> icheck (1024 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> root.dump (10240 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> file6.tar (10240 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> file7.tar (10240 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> <tapemark> The 2nd tape contains file8.tar blocked at 10240 bytes. The "boot" tape really only need to have the first few files, up to and including 'root.dump'. Those are enough to boot the tape, run the standalone utilties to label the disk, create the filesystem and restor the root filesystem. The tar archives can be (with suitable interpolation of the installation instructions) be placed on individual tapes. This may be necessary because file7.tar may or may not fit any longer on the first tape. Why three blocking factors? Well, partly historical and partly hardware reasons. The first "file" contains the 'bootblock' and that needs to be 512 bytes since that's all the hardware will read. The standalone i/o system uses 1024 byte blocks so the next few files use 1k records. After the standalone utilities are done and the system is loaded 'tar' can use its default 20 sector (10kb) record size. > 2. A kind soul sends me a set of 9-track 2.11BSD tapes with > boot images. My tape drive may or may not work - it's been ages since it was last powered up and I fear the rubber parts may have disintegrated (or the capacitors dried out, etc). > 3. Other? If you could find a TK70+TQK70 drive+controller that would be awesome. They're pretty cheap (less than $100 I believe - I didn't pay much for mine). Or even a TK50 drive (almost free) attached to a TQK70 would be fine. The TQK70 is a vastly better controller than the TQK50 because the former has a buffer cache that makes a huge difference is how often the tape stops moving. If the Emulex controller you have is SCSI based (UC07 or 08) then someone could stage and make available a 2.11BSD Zip disk image with all the stuff needed to boot and run the installation proceedure (I've a Zip disk attached to my UC08 - works great). Alternatively a 2.11 formatted CDROM could be created and a CDrom drive (that knew about 512 byte blocks instead of 2048 byte blocks) could be used. Good Luck! Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA57080 for pups-liszt; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:12:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> Mon Aug 14 13:25:30 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA57076 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:12:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25335 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:12:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from goby.ciswired.com (IDENT:root@goby.ciswired.com [206.97.67.65]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA56900 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:21:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from greg(a)ciswired.com) Received: from weasel.ciswired.com (root(a)weasel.ciswired.com [206.97.67.73]) by goby.ciswired.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25189; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:17:57 -0500 Received: from localhost (greg@localhost) by weasel.ciswired.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA30939; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:25:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: weasel.ciswired.com: greg owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:25:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: [pups] Needed 2.11BSD 9-track boot tapes In-Reply-To: <200008140130.SAA18988(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10008132221010.30812-100000(a)weasel.ciswired.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Aug 2000, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> > > What I have: > > > > 11/83, QBUS, 2MB, DH11, running RT-11 5.04 plus TSX > > - Kermit is installed on the machine > > 2x CDC 384MB SMD disks attached to Emulex Controller emulating MSCP > > 1 DigiData 800/1600 BPI 9-track drive attached to TM-11 emulating > > controller > > It wouldn't happen to be an Emulex UC07 or UC08 would it? If so > there are a couple possibilities that open up. No, it's a DigiData board. Single QBUS board. Two 40-pin connectors. > > > How I can do that: > > 1. Kermit transfer of 2.11BSD images to RT-11 > > Slow but sure - the sum total of data to move is close to 80mb I've already been waiting a few weeks :-) > This can be made to work but it depends on having a program that can > transfer the the files "bytes as bytes" (no record format > interpretation, etc) _and_ handle multiple blocking factors on the > first tape. > > If you have the PDP-11 volume of the archives you should see in the > PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD directory two files called 'maketape.c' > and 'maketape.data'. It's a small program and if a counterpart to > that could be created for RT-11 you'd be all set to go. Yeah, it's the RT-11 part that I don't know. It's a little hard to believe that in 20+ years no-one has come up with an RT-11 program to build UNIX distribution tapes! :-) (again) > > 2. A kind soul sends me a set of 9-track 2.11BSD tapes with > > boot images. > > My tape drive may or may not work - it's been ages since it was > last powered up and I fear the rubber parts may have disintegrated > (or the capacitors dried out, etc). The Windex and electrical tape are on me. Did I mention that I would happiliy provide 9-track boot service in the future? That is. once I can get a system running! > If the Emulex controller you have is SCSI based (UC07 or 08) then > someone could stage and make available a 2.11BSD Zip disk image > with all the stuff needed to boot and run the installation proceedure > (I've a Zip disk attached to my UC08 - works great). > Alternatively a 2.11 formatted CDROM could be created and a CDrom > drive (that knew about 512 byte blocks instead of 2048 byte blocks) > could be used. Not SCSI, SMD/MSCP/Pertec formatted unfortunately greg Gregory Travis Cornerstone Information Systems ATS greg(a)ciswired.com 812 330 4361 ext. 18

24 years, 9 months

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Re: [pups] Overlays?

by Steven M. Schultz

HI! > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> > I've just installed 2.11BSD on one of my PDPs, from a TK50 tape I just > re-discovered in the trunk of my car. And now I'm in the process of Wow - those TK50s are quite robust to survive being stored in the truck of a car. I've had audio tapes that did not survive ;) > applying patches. When I installed patch 412 and started to rebuild the > kernel, ld complains with a "ld: too big for type 431". > Does this means that I have to rearrange stuff between the BASE and the > various OV entries? Indeed it does mean exactly that. > How can I find out which overlay is too big? I've tried to do a: > 138% root--> size unix.o Yep - that is the correct method. > text data bss dec hex > 52352 6928 37622 96902 17a86 total text: 115520 > overlays: 7680,7232,7808,7744,4864,8576,4736,6848,7680 > > How big is too big? And also if none of the overlays above are too big, I > guess it must be the BASE that is too big? I thought I wrote this up at one time but I may have only thought about it ;) > Is there some sort of documentation anywhere that describe this voodoo > stuff and black magic a bit? Is it in one an Appendix to the "Setup&Installation" document? In the case above it is OV6 (overlays are numbered from 1) that is too big. The rules are: 1) BASE can be 56kb (57344) max 2) OVerlays can be 8kb (8192) max 3) There can be no 0 length overlays (except for the very last one). > Any suggestions on what .o file I should move to what overlay? Look at the Makefile - you should see a line that starts "OV6=". Do a "size" on the .o files listed for OV6. Pick one that will fix elsewhere - I'd suggest OV5 since it is only 4864 bytes and has lots of room. You could also move a .o file to the BASE since it has adequate room also. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20356 for pups-liszt; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Aug 1 03:12:43 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20352 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:31:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18497 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:29:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18526 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 03:28:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02116; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:12:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007311712.KAA02116(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, rblair(a)webteksdesign.com Subject: Re: [pups] makesimtape.c Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi! > From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> > > While reading back through the mailing list messages, trying to find out why > my tape images never seem to work, I came across a program that I cannot > seem to find. It was mentioned lately as "makesimtape.c" but I cannot find > it anywhere in the archives. Anybody have a lead on this? Yep - I have a lead (not too surprising since I wrote the program :)) I think the program's present in the PUPS archive in the top of the 2.11 tree area but it may have been relocated or whatever over time. Here's the program - it should compile on just about anything that has the 'mtio' ioctl functions. It is very similar to 'maketape' (intentional since makesimtape.c started out as a copy of maketape.c). Steven Schultz moe.2bsd.com -------------------------- /* * @(#)makesimtape.c 2.1 (2.11BSD) 1998/12/31 * Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for * use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape * driver. * * NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out * the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian * machine nor a big-endian one. */ #include <stdio.h> #include <errno.h> #include <fcntl.h> #include <stdlib.h> #include <sys/types.h> #include <sys/stat.h> #include <sys/uio.h> #define MAXB 30 char buf[MAXB * 512]; char name[50]; long recsz, flipped, trl(); int blksz; int mt, fd, cnt; struct iovec iovec[3]; struct iovec tmark[2]; void usage(); main(argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { int i, j = 0, k = 0; long zero = 0; register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL; FILE *mf; struct stat st; while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF) { switch (i) { case 'o': outfile = optarg; break; case 'i': infile = optarg; break; default: usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ } } if (!outfile || !infile) usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ /* * Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or * 2) Exists but is a regular file. */ if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode))) errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file"); /* NOTREACHED */ mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600); if (mt < 0) err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile); /* NOTREACHED */ mf = fopen(infile, "r"); if (!mf) err(1, "Can not open %s", infile); /* NOTREACHED*/ tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long); tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero; while (1) { if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF) exit(0); if (i != 2) { fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i); exit(1); } if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB) { fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz); exit(1); } recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */ iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz); #ifdef pdp11 iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped; #else iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz; #endif iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz; iovec[1].iov_base = buf; iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len; iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base; if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0) { if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0) warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed"); k++; continue; } fd = open(name, 0); if (fd < 0) err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name); /* NOTREACHED */ printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k); /* * we pad the last record with nulls * (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash). * this allows you to access text files on the * tape without garbage at the end of the file. * (note that there is no record length associated * with tape files) */ while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz) { j++; #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #1"); /* NOTREACHED */ } if (cnt > 0) { j++; bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt); #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #2"); /* NOTREACHED */ } close(fd); } /* * Write two tape marks to simulate EOT */ writev(mt, tmark, 1); writev(mt, tmark, 1); } long trl(l) long l; { union { long l; short s[2]; } foo; register short x; foo.l = l; x = foo.s[0]; foo.s[0] = foo.s[1]; foo.s[1] = x; return(foo.l); } void usage() { fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n"); exit(1); }

24 years, 9 months

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[pups] Overlays?

by Jorgen Pehrson

Hi, I've just installed 2.11BSD on one of my PDPs, from a TK50 tape I just re-discovered in the trunk of my car. And now I'm in the process of applying patches. When I installed patch 412 and started to rebuild the kernel, ld complains with a "ld: too big for type 431". Does this means that I have to rearrange stuff between the BASE and the various OV entries? How can I find out which overlay is too big? I've tried to do a: 138% root--> size unix.o text data bss dec hex 52352 6928 37622 96902 17a86 total text: 115520 overlays: 7680,7232,7808,7744,4864,8576,4736,6848,7680 How big is too big? And also if none of the overlays above are too big, I guess it must be the BASE that is too big? Is there some sort of documentation anywhere that describe this voodoo stuff and black magic a bit? Btw, I've put my makefile is at http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/Makefile.LOKE. Any suggestions on what .o file I should move to what overlay? Thanks! -- Jörgen Pehrson jp(a)spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "i must say the linux community is a lot nicer than the unix community. a negative comment on unix would warrent death threats. with linux, it is like stirring up a nest of butterflies." -- Ken Thompson. 1999 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16344 for pups-liszt; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:30:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Sat Jul 29 07:12:05 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:30:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16752 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:28:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (waverly.k12.mi.us [204.38.93.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01052 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:15:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Received: from rbp200 (pm170-19.dialip.mich.net [35.9.15.180]) by scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA84808 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:12:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Message-ID: <000b01bff8d8$831b6be0$b40f0923@rbp200> From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] makesimtape.c Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:12:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk While reading back through the mailing list messages, trying to find out why my tape images never seem to work, I came across a program that I cannot seem to find. It was mentioned lately as "makesimtape.c" but I cannot find it anywhere in the archives. Anybody have a lead on this? Thanks, Ryan Blair rblair(a)webteksdesign.com

24 years, 9 months

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[pups] V7 vs RX50 (was Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running)

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

400KB floppies, or even 1.4MB ones, may seem tiny now; but they should hardly be undersized for a bare-bones V7 root file system. Remember that disks weren't all that big in the late 1970s, and that one of the important fixes in V7 was that it became possible to make a file system bigger than 32MB. The V7 version of the `Setting Up UNIX' paper doesn't say just how big the root file system dump is, but the instructions say the file system itself should have 5000 blocks: about 2.4MB. If the dump was that big, it would have taken just over 6 RX50 diskettes. (But it probably wasn't that big, because there must have been a good bit of free space in the standard root--/tmp was there too!) I once ran a stripped-down V7 off a single RK05 (2.5MB including swap) for several days, during an air-conditioning crisis. The system wasn't fully-functional, but there was enough there to let the secretarial staff keep up with their typing, and even run troff. The real trouble with the RX50 is not so much the size as the speed: the damn things are painfully slow. I sometimes boot my V10 MicroVAXes from RX50, as part of an experimental Jumpstart-like installation scheme. The bare-bones installation environment requires only two floppies; the real nuisance is that it takes several minutes to read them. And, of course, V7 doesn't have an MSCP driver, since MSCP didn't hit the streets until 1982 or so. Norman Wilson

24 years, 10 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting

by Laurent Canet

> > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It > > gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up > > after I shut it down in the emulator. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > I ran the 2.11bsd_on_rl02 without problems on bob supnik's emulator. (you need to issue a mount -a command after booting in order to mount the 4 RL02 disk and the 5 RK packs in correct places) I also ran the 2.11_rp_unknown on bob supnik's emulator and on p11. It worked fine except that password files were corrupted (and contained unknown passwords) So I replaced /etc/passwd*; /etc/master.passwd; /bin/passwd and /etc/mkpasswd (which was no present) with the files of the RL distribution Now it works very good, on p11 emulator under linux 2.2 with networking support. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78042 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 10 months

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Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running

by SHOPPA＠enterprise.trailing-edge.com

>> 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? > A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system. V7 will > fit I think. But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver? Recommending to someone that all they have to do is write a driver when they don't even have a running machine yet is, IMHO, a bit optimistic :-). Of course, under the Mentec PDP-11 hobbyist program he could install RT-11 or RSX-11 or MicroRSTS on such a machine quite nicely from a bunch of RX50 or RX33 floppies he made from the Mentec CD-ROM's. >> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write >> and/or format RX50 floppies? > Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. See ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/putr/ How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump? 15 or so? It's not *quite* as cruel as the RX01 root distribution we discussed over some Pastrami sandwiches a couple of years back. But it is approaching the "Wagner Ring cycle on convenient 45's" stage! > On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with > some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard > 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for > that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 > newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt See, it's these sorts of references we need in the PUPS FAQ list. The same questions come up every month, I give the same pointers, then everybody forgets them again, until I answer the same questions the next month :-). Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78068 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Wed Jul 26 01:43:29 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78064 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40100 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:19:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de [192.109.44.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA75848 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:46:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de) Received: from yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (yorikke [192.109.44.12]) by vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (8.9.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA64551 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:45:10 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de) Received: (from wb@localhost) by yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA31300 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from wb) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Message-Id: <200007251543.RAA31300(a)yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: [pups] Algol 68 for PDP11? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba. At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent discussion in comp.lang.misc. Regards, wbk -- Dipl.-Math. Wilhelm Bernhard Kloke Institut fuer Arbeitsphysiologie an der Universitaet Dortmund Ardeystrasse 67, D-44139 Dortmund, Tel. 0231-1084-257 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78127 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:27:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jul 26 08:24:51 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78123 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:27:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40198 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:25:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78114 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:26:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40182; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:24:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007252224.IAA40182(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] Re; Algol 68 for PDP11? In-Reply-To: <200007251543.RAA31300(a)yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> from "Wilhelm B. Kloke" at "Jul 25, 2000 05:43:29 pm" To: "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:24:51 +1000 (EST) CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Wilhelm B. Kloke: > Hi, > > is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be > an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba. > At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent > discussion in comp.lang.misc. > > Regards, wbk Is it freely available or requires a license? Regardless, I'd be happy to put it in to the PDP-11/Applications area in our Unix Archive. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78895 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:22:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jul 26 09:47:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA78890 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:22:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA40710 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:20:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA78548 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:57:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05298 for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007252347.QAA05298(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: SHOPPA(a)enterprise.trailing-edge.com > > But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver? Recommending to someone that all they Oops - I messed up there didn't I? Concentrated so much on the size of the disk I forgot about the MSCPness of the device :( Ummm, as a matter of fact no it doesn't. Depending what version of V7 you have it may or may not even have an RL driver. > How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump? 15 or so? Oh perhaps 8 or 9. Using RX33 disks it only took 4 floppies but the RX50 is what, 400kb (about 1/3 that of the RX33). It's more like just Siegfried on 45's rather than the entire Ring ;) > See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Is ftp.spc.edu still up and running? I know spc11c.spc.edu is out of action and I'm not sure home much longer the systems at SPC.EDU will keep running now that Terry's no longer there. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

24 years, 10 months

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Re: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting

by Andy Valencia

[Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:] >UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX: >... >Hope this helps! Thanks! (Don't know how I missed this. :-<) Yes, it helped, and I'm now the proud owner of a (virtual) single-user V7 box. Time to hack! Andy Valencia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71804 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:13:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Tue Jul 25 10:08:16 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71800 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:13:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35346 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:11:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us [204.38.93.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71785 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:11:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Received: from rbp200 (pm098-06.dialip.mich.net [35.9.14.47]) by scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09047 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:09:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Message-ID: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:08:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In the same rut as Andy Valencia: I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up after I shut it down in the emulator. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71852 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jul 25 10:14:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71848 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35378 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71837 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35364; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting In-Reply-To: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> from Ryan Blair at "Jul 24, 2000 08:08:16 pm" To: Ryan Blair <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST) CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Ryan Blair: [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It > gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up > after I shut it down in the emulator. I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the Supnik and Ersatz emulators. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71925 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:29:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jul 25 10:22:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71921 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:29:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35426 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:27:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71891 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:24:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31930; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:52:40 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:52:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Cc: Ryan Blair <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Message-ID: <20000725095240.B98476(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:14:09AM +1000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 25 July 2000 at 10:14:09 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Ryan Blair: > [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] >> In the same rut as Andy Valencia: >> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images >> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it >> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the >> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It >> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up >> after I shut it down in the emulator. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > > I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) > to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the > Supnik and Ersatz emulators. I had some somewhere, but I haven't run them for a while. They're also very big. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA72058 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:01:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> Tue Jul 25 10:37:47 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA72054 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:01:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35561 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:59:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net (gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net [207.246.128.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71964 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:39:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net) Received: from localhost (jeremy@localhost) by gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA76771 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0007241715580.62180-100000(a)gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't have a tape drive. My questions are: 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines? 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write and/or format RX50 floppies? I tried looking through the mail archive, but there didn't seem to be anything there that addressed this question. Thanks in advance to everybody. -j ---------------------------------------------------------- You know you've been spending too much time on the computer when your friend misdates a check, and you suggest adding a "++" to fix it. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA72592 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:28:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jul 25 13:00:06 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72588 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:28:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA36970 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72507 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:12:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22851; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007250300.UAA22851(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: rblair(a)webteksdesign.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Howdy - > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > In article by Ryan Blair: > > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt. Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I forget who it was) having "massive corruption". It turned out that the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode). Once the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems cleared right up. A good case can be made that it's a bug the system doesn't outright crash if it's unhappy with the amount of memory but given it's so easy to 'add memory' to the system I can't work up any enthusiasm to track down and fix the problem ;) > I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) > to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the > Supnik and Ersatz emulators. Well, one could take the tape images that are in the archive and run the suitable tape preparation program ('makesimtape' for Supnik's simulator and I think makesimtape.c is around in the archive as well). Might need a "toggle in" boot for that (it's in the 2.11 setup and installation guide) though since I do not recall the Supnik simulator knowing how to boot from tape. Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu 22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA72598 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:29:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jul 25 13:18:29 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72594 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:29:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA36985 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72576 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23005; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi! > From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> > I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a Wow - that's a source for PDP-11s I would never have thought of :) > RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't > have a tape drive. My questions are: > 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines? I think we need just one more little piece of information before we can match up a version of Unix with your new machine. We need to know if it's an 11/23 (23+), or an 11/53 (73). The label "MicroPDP-11" was used on a number of systems. If it's a 53 or better then you can run any of the PDP-11 Unix systems that are out there. If it's a 23 class machine then you're limited to V7 or earlier (2.9BSD would probably fit but it would be a struggle and you definitely wouldn't be able to use the networking). Looking at the system maint register with the console ODT would probably be the easiest way to determine the cpu type - examine location 177750 (or 17777750 depending if the system needs the explicit 22 bit address). Bits 4 thru 7 tell the module type: 5 = KDJ-11E (93, 94), 4 = KDJ-11D (53), 3 = KXJ11-C, 2 = KDJ11B (quad high 73), 1 = KDJ-11A (dual high board 73). If it's a 23 the sys maint register probably doesn't exist. Another way would be to look at the module number on the spine of the card ;) > 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system. V7 will fit I think. > 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write > and/or format RX50 floppies? Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow (DOS) system around. On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA72804 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:19:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Tue Jul 25 14:16:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA72800 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:19:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA37187 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:17:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA72792 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:18:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com) Received: (from entropy@localhost) by zippy.bernstein.com (8.10.2/8.8.8) id e6P4G9T17046; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007250416.e6P4G9T17046(a)zippy.bernstein.com> From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com CC: jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> (sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running References: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> > >> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> >> [...] >> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write >> and/or format RX50 floppies? > > Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. > Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow > (DOS) system around. > > On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with > some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard > 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for > that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 > newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). http://vaxarchive.org/hw/rx50.html ...contains a good FAQ with some useful links, including a link to John Wilson's stuff at DBIT. I'm also appending here a file with some informative messages on the subject. I had this file stored away with a bunch of Venix images for the Pro. I don't remember if this file (RX50.notes) came with the Venix stuff, or if I collected them together myself. I'm pretty sure it's the former, but I couldn't find any links to it by searching the net. Anyway, here it is... >From barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:38 1992 >From: barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 2 Aug 92 11:53:41 GMT >Organization: MicroMuse >In-reply-to: keithr(a)garfield.cs.mun.ca's message of 1 Aug 92 01:10:53 GMT > >I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50 >diskettes. What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which >spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive. > >RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on >the disks. If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure, >which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS >directory structure. > >To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11 >which groks the RT11 file structure. I have not yet found a similar >utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series. > >I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette >in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector, >not by logical file. > >I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former >Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for >manipulating RX50 diskettes. > >Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. > >Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) > >Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the >COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA >card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging >>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators, >Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by >DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities. > >None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom >line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes >and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines. > >Barry Kort > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:48 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 2 Aug 92 19:45:22 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: >: >: Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >: low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >: put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >: This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >: or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. >: >: Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >: drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >: if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >: to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) > > >Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to >use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC. Not only >does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also >store a disk into a file (on the PC). This way, it is possible to keep an >image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies >easily. > >In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class >drives seem to work out best. > >-andy > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:56 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 06:39:56 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <1992Aug2.194522.18244(a)menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes: >> >>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to >>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC. Not only >>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also >>store a disk into a file (on the PC). This way, it is possible to keep an >>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies >>easily. > >Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >of the media on the target? > >IF you use DR-DOS and RAINDOS (but not RX50DRVR) you can use DISKCOPY and >DISKCOMP to copy RX50 MS-DOS diskettes to each other, or to files on the >hard disk: > >DISKCOPY E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG > >DISKCOPY E: E: > >DISKCOPY C:\RX50DISK.IMG E: > >DISKCOMP E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG > >When writing the file or disk image onto a target disk, the diskette has to >be already formatted as a low-level RX50, yet there are no high-level >considerations, so non-DOS RX50's can be directly used as targets! > >Of course input diskettes have to already be MS-DOS RX50 DECmate II/Rainbow >diskettes because of DOS restrictions. > >Note that DOS 5 cannot do anything but "standard" disk sizes, and can't >copy disk images to files at all. > >> >>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class >>drives seem to work out best. > >And without hub rings is better. If you suspect that a disk is actually >high-density when it has no hub rings, there is a simple test: > >Just format it as a normal 1.2 Meg disk. a low-density diskette will get >hundreds of Kbytes in bad sectors, while a HD diskette will get little or >no errors, thus proving it unsuitable for RX50 purposes. Most disks with >hub rings are already clearly low-density, but after you remove them, this >will prove a quick check for actual diskette formulation. > >cjl > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:02 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 16:42:35 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >: >: Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >: of the media on the target? >: >I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". > >Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting. It's possible >to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go. Incidently, teledisk is >made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk. > >-andy > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:11 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 16:54:30 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >: I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >: "mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". > >Correction, it's spelled "wuarchive.wustl.edu" with a missing 'e'. > >Host nic.switch.ch (130.59.1.40) > Location: /mirror/msdos/dskutl > FILE rw-rw-r-- 93805 Dec 23 1990 teled212.zip > >Host ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9) > Location: /systems/msdos/simtel20/dskutl > FILE rw-r--r-- 93805 Dec 22 1990 teled212.zip > >Host wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4) > Location: /mirrors3/garbo.uwasa.fi/diskutil > FILE rw-rw-r-- 94075 Dec 11 1990 teled212.zip > Location: /mirrors/msdos/dskutl > FILE rw-r--r-- 93805 Dec 23 1990 teled212.zip > >archie> > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:17 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 05:55:11 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <1992Aug3.164235.1187(a)menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes: >>lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >>: >>: Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >>: of the media on the target? >>: >>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". >> >>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting. It's possible >>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go. Incidently, teledisk is >>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk. >> >>-andy > >Sydex also makes RAINDOS. > >I suspect that teledisk will only make sector-compatible descendents though, >so if I have a specially layed-out version of a diskette (such as 2:1 >interleave or staggered, etc.) the descendent will lose that aspect of >optimization, and will instead become "vanilla" RX50 format in the >case of RX50 diskette. > >The point is that certain software, especially for DECmates not specifically >geared to CP/M-80, and *any* bootable DECmate diskette (including CP/M-80) the >format used in stock RX50 layout is non-optimal. There are different >requirements for different specific applications, but just as on PC's, the >use of non-interleaved non-staggered disks can be demonstrated to be >inferior to a variant in terms of sector ordering at the low format level. > >Rainbow MS-DOS disks have an implied software interleave of 2:1 for the >FAT area, and 1:1 in the rest; this is in software, so the standard disk >layout should be maintained, except that the *stagger* is not taken into >account. Thus, like a PC, Rainbow MS-DOS disks should be formatted with a >stagger of 2 per track. Thus track 1 is layed out 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and >track 2 is layed out 9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. When the disk seeks from track 1 >to track 2, it will thus miss 9 and 10, but immediately find 1. Were the >stagger not there, it would miss 1 and 2, and reject 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 while >waiting for 1 to come around again. Thus staggering relieves rotational >latency. > >For the DECmate, there are two additional problems: > >All bootable diskettes require the logically sequential reading of tracks >78, 79 in the order 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. But the RX >interface of the DECmate can't perform 1:1 interleave ever, so this is >anti-optimal not only in stagger but more importantly in interleave. Thus, >this area of the disk should be formatted with an interleave of 2:1 as well >as a stagger of 2. Thus the disk is layed out: > >track 78: 1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9,5,10 >track 79: 5,10,1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9 > >This restriction is based on the ROM routines that read in this area in linear >order. This is mostly why all DECmates take so long to boot up! Changing to >a better sector order will chop seconds out of the boot time. > >Further, all systems other than CP/M-80 require some form of help, mostly >applying the stagger that helps the Rainbow as well (again other than CP/M). >For DECmate MS-DOS, tracks 0-3 should be in 1-1 interleave because the software >already maps the disk in 2:1 usage. tracks 4-79 should be formatted 2:1 >interleave to help out the RX interface when the Rainbow-optimal ordering >is invoked (similar to the DECmate ROM access, and just as inefficient on >a DECmate). > >OS/278 does a software 2:1 interleave, so the only help needed is a >disk-wide stagger factor of 2. > >Note that RT-11 and all other -11-oriented disks should use stock format only >because this superior software maps all sectors to include both the 2-1 >interleave and stagger of 2 already. > >So, if Teledisk is a *really* good utility, it won't disturb the format's >stagger and interleave as it copies the disks! > >cjl > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:23 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <BARRY.92Aug2075341(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: >>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50 >>diskettes. What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which >>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive. > >RX50DRVR, like RAINDOS, creates a new logical drive past your last existent >drive, so it's F: for you because you apparently have an A: through E: before >the driver gets loaded in CONFIG.SYS. > >> >>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on >>the disks. If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure, >>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS >>directory structure. > >That's not quite true, since the disk organization has to be DOS as implemented >on DECmate II MSDOS/Rainbow MS-DOS only. It is true only in the sense that >you can make your own BIOS calls to read the disks yourself without caring >about the significence. But that's no different from doing so with any >floppy on a PC. > >> >>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11 >>which groks the RT11 file structure. I have not yet found a similar >>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series. > >Where can I get this RT11 utility? It sounds useful. Does it specifically >require/recognize the RX50DRVR or does it merely work in an innocuous way >with the same drive letter? (Would it work also with A:? or must it have >RX50DRVR present. If so, would it work with RAINDOS as an alternative?) > >> >>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette >>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector, >>not by logical file. >> >>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former >>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for >>manipulating RX50 diskettes. > >Re the Soviet-originating files: > >The files come with a piece of shareware originating in Italy that intercepts >DOS's calls for formatting commands, so that "odd" sizes, such as using: >FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 are now legal. The result is a double-sided disk that >is quite suitably low-level formatted for RX50, but the high-level is PC >compatible, *not* DECmate/Rainbow's idea of MS-DOS, and specifically must be >used on a "normal" drive and *not* with RX50DRVR. All media indicators are >stock PC-type, not RX50. However, since the low-level is now correct, and >errors are recorded in a way that FORMAT indicated when it finished, and can >be re-confirmed with CHKDSK, etc., the media can be determined to be error- >free hopefully. If so, then the companion program RX50INIT that comes with >RX50DRVR can be used to initialize the directory so DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS >likes the disk, and of course the RX50DRVR-controlled logical device such as >F: in your example. Note also that RX50INIT can be used with RAINDOS as well. >Also, RX50INIT requires ANSI.SYS be loaded purely for cosmetic reasons. >RX50DRVR and RX50INIT were designed for DOS 3.3 usage. They don't support the >extensions to DOS brought into versions 4 and 5, so there are some problems. >RX50INIT fails totally in those two systems, and CHKDSK can't work there >either. With some adjustment to the BUFFERS= statement in CONFIG.SYS, they >can be made to work for read/write purposes under DOS 4 or 5. > > >When used with DR-DOS 6.0, all RX50DRVR and RX50INIT functions work fine. > > >> >>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. > >Just a word about using HD media: > >You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity >is too far off in HD media. It was designed for the higher-frequency >recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording >rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K >kid of media). Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX >controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be >demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD >media. > >The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is >what used to be called "quad" media. This is well-honed low-density media, >so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track) >drives as is usual. Note that MD2D is not MD2DD. (The 2 just means two-sided >which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media >is actually made double-sided :-).) The DD means 80-track support, but since >most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway. >These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50! However, long-term usage >requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky >stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!). Failing to remove >hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they >ought to due to registration problems. All 96 TPI disks have this problem. >Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings! It is rumored that there is >a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of >inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't >a hub ring per se. If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media, >then the DD type would be the best thing today to use with impunity for >RX50. Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too >expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes >with the hub rings never added. (We don't want to pay more for less!) > >Re RT-11 utility: > >I don't know anything about the RT11 utility program, but RX50DRVR cannot >format disks; the code lacks support for the FORMAT command, and also some >calls needed by both CHKDSK and FORMAT. Attempts to use either on DOS 4 >or 5 will get error messages. Even on 3.3, where CHKDSK is more "forgiving" >you still get the message about "format not supported on device" when >using RX50DRVR. So, if your claim for formatting is true, the RT11 utility >must contain low-level formatting code of its own, and perhaps only needs >RX50DRVR to locate the proper device? > >RAINDOS is a share-ware mostly superset of RX50DRVR, and it totally supports >CHKDSK and FORMAT in DOS 4 and 5. It works fine with RX50INIT (assuming that >RX50INIT can work!) and suffers from only two known problems: > >1) Should you specify a format command with the FORMAT F: command, >and the O/S is DR-DOS 6, then if it really does attempt a low-level format, >it gets a cryptic error message and fails. Note that MS-DOS 5 and DR-DOS 6 >will always attempt a "quick" format if possible, unless over-ridden. This >case of a quick format doesn't fail, but also isn't formatting! Just >rewriting a cleaned-up high-level format directory initialize. > >2) It is sometimes strangely slow, as compared to RX50DRVR where both >could work. When using Norton 4.5's DT program, RX50DRVR handles the >disk at normal speed, and allows DT to mark bad clusters (if any) quite >nicely. When RAINDOS is used, it causes many recalibrates for unknown >reasons. In some cases, the sloth isn't that noticeable, but this is a >sore point usage. > >Otherwise, RAINDOS is a total replacement for RX50DRVR, or so it would seem. >Norton NU treats RX50DRVR diskettes and RAINDOS diskettes equally since it >does one-sector I/O. > >> >>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >>drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) >> >>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the >>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA >>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging >>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators, >>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by >>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities. >> >>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom >>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes >>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines. >> >>Barry Kort > >If the Soviet files prove to work, and apparently requiring the Italian >TSR shareware program, we can probably make Files-11 RX50 diskettes as well. >I have just received these programs and will be evaluating them when feasible. >I am still working with the accompanying Italian shareware which has some >interesting "generic" features of its own with respect to the entire RX50 >issue. I suspect that its presence enhances any of these utilities, although >it's possible redundant and perhaps extraneous to some of the utilities. > >In any case, there are many ways to get files moved around. > >Another excellent package is 22DISK from Sydex, the same shareware author >as RAINDOS. This package low-level formats RX50's in either DECmate CP/M-80 >or Rainbow CP/M-80/86 format. (They are similar, but not identical, although >they can read each other's disks no sweat; it's a matter of interleave, etc. >and a throughput issue, not a format per se issue.) It then high-level >formats the disks for CP/M usage. So, its a good place to do the low-level >formatting required for all of these other utilities. For example, on >DR-DOS 6, you first run 22DISK to format the disk, then use RX50INIT to get >an RX50 MS-DOS DECmate/Rainbow high-level structure, and then can use >RAINDOS to transfer files, run CHKDSK, and do quick-formats with FORMAT /Q, >etc. Notice this avoids all of the Raindos/DR-DOS interaction :-). > >22DISK can get directory listings of CP/M disks, and can transfer files >to/from MS-DOS from/to the designated CP/M diskette. It supports literally >hundreds of CP/M formats, which implies many low and high-level support >variants. This program is highly reminiscent of the former Rainbow, and >later PC-based "Media Master" program, but is for PC/MS-DOS only, and >requires HD drives for the RX50 formats. > >I believe there is an obscure PRO option for a CP/M-80 board, so this might >be yet another way to get files in/out of a PRO. > >So, like cats, there are many ways to "skin" an RX50 :-). > >cjl > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:29 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Good report on Teledisk. >Date: 4 Aug 92 07:27:25 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my >expectations in some useful ways. > >For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing >RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any >satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks. > >Background: > >There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed >elsewhere. The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's. While >this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that >make it unsuitable for RX50 usage. It is conceivable that this will be >solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create >usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks >that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others. In >addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the >disks and read back what it just wrote reliably! Yet, this isn't a media >problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by >low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK >packages. (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers >and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different >drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed >the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect >about FDFORMATted diskettes. Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable >value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements. Perhaps this will be >uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion. Until such a >time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on >*all* RX50 systems. FDFORMAT also has a few other operational bugs, such as >incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception >cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.) > >The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program >capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be >done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have >"zones" where the format changes. For example, to create a disk best suited >for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given: > >FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2 >FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 > >The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of >2 throughout. The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave >and a stagger of 2 throughout. > >When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read >in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of >the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes >the software's lack of stagger mapping. But since the software does map the >sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1 >interleave sequence. > >This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates >will be unable to read this diskette. Literally, it will get a CRC error >on *every* sector! Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the >software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even >though it just wrote the disk out! > >Enter Teledisk to the rescue! > >When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve >this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too* >smart! It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods >by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the >problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(. Or, alternatively, it might guess that >the diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a stock manner, thus >destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead >of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes. > >Well, I was wrong on both counts! > >Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the >change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is >hurdled. > >Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently >the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the >resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates! Of course, this is *not* an >"exact" copy, but rather it is a "better" copy. Apparently Teledisk only >writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to >is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level >details. Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also >within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track >512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk >is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc. > >Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original. I can now >therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage >of the best effort of each diskette :-). > >Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended >format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that >need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create >optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this >entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the >original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create >perfect copies in one step. > >There are additional advantages: > >Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette >in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form. These files >can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use >on RX50 targets. Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead >as well, etc. > >So, Teledisk has made my day :-). > >cjl > >From barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 5 10:12:06 1992 >From: barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 12:13:30 GMT >Organization: MicroMuse >In-reply-to: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu's message of 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT > >Charles, > >You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from >newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory. > >Barry > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Wed Aug 5 10:12:14 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 18:41:23 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <BARRY.92Aug4081330(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> >arry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: > >>Charles, > >>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from >>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory. > >>Barry > >Got it. It looks nice. It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like >environment on a PC for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk >for the purpose of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS >file. Since this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-). > >And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised. I will >only take you to task on the minor point: it doesn't require RX50DRVR at all. >There was a little confusion as to whether they were tied together, which is >not the case. > >This program is written in Turbo Pascal. It would seem that someone who >can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should >incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since >the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed >elsewhere. > >Overall a nice program. > >cjl > > > > > -- entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA74088 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:05:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Tue Jul 25 15:55:00 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA74084 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:05:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA38315 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:03:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA73220 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:57:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13GxgC-00055v-00; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: rblair(a)webteksdesign.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting References: <200007250300.UAA22851(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <858zuq21qj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt. I use the 2.11_rp_unknown (Current Patch Level: 400, Date: January 24, 1998) image without any problems. Well, I didn't know the root password, so I had to erase it in single user mode. > Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I > forget who it was) having "massive corruption". It turned out that > the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode). Once > the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems > cleared right up. That was probably me. > Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu > 22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help). This is the script I use: set cpu 22b set cpu 3072K at rp0 2.11_rp_unknown at rl0 x.tar b rp

24 years, 10 months

1
0
0 0

[pups] Eh...

by Andy Valencia

I should mention that "at rl0 ..." also doesn't work: sim> at rl0 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145 sim> b rl0 @/ @/ HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT) sim> Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA64000 for pups-liszt; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:06:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com> Mon Jul 24 00:03:02 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA63996 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:06:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28520 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:04:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from zendo.com (bodhi.zendo.com [205.187.71.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA61473 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:06:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from vandys(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com) Received: from vandys-pc.zendo.com (dialup-209.245.169.79.Seattle1.Level3.net [209.245.169.79]) by zendo.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6N6H4724974 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 06:17:05 GMT Received: from vandys-pc.zendo.com (localhost.zendo.com [127.0.0.1]) by vandys-pc.zendo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA00392 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vandys(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com) Message-Id: <200007231403.HAA00392(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:03:02 -0700 From: Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get: PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145 sim> b rl02 @ I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything unless I type '/', at which point it bombs back to the emulator. My scan of the documentation for bootstraps doesn't point out any state with an '@' prompt... help? I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've had access to an '11 running V7. Looking forward to it! Thanks, Andy Valencia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA64083 for pups-liszt; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:24:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Jul 24 08:22:52 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA64079 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:24:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28686 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:23:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA64071 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:24:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28671; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007232222.IAA28671(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting In-Reply-To: <200007231403.HAA00392(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com> from Andy Valencia at "Jul 23, 2000 07:03:02 am" To: Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000 (EST) CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Andy Valencia: > I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get: > > PDP-11 simulator V2.3d > sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145 > sim> b rl02 > @ > > I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything... > Andy Valencia At the bottom of simh_doc.txt in the Supnik emulator sources, it says: UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX: sim> set cpu 18b sim> set rl0 RL02 sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk sim> boot rl0 @boot New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt : rl(0,0)rl2unix # A smaller image is contained on a single RK05 disk image. To boot UNIX: sim> set cpu 18b sim> att rk0 unix_v7_rk.dsk sim> boot rk0 @boot New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt : rk(0,0)rkunix # STTY -LCASE # Hope this helps! Cheers, Warren

24 years, 10 months

1
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[pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?

by Tim Shoppa

In a big batch of 9-tracks and RL01 packs rescued this morning, I have two tapes, one labeled AT&T ** 66938 ** UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM FOR WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE TPname: LOAD PGM FOR PDP 11/70 the other labeled AT&T ** 66611 ** UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE TPname: LOAD PGM FOR VAX 11/780 11/750 Both have copyright dates of 1984. You can see scans of the original labels (high-res scans, they're big files!) at http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/wwtapes/ I won't be able to make binary copies of these until this evening, but does anyone know where these tapes fit into the scheme of AT&T stuff? i.e. are these custom-built SYS III and SYS V systems? Is the PDP-11/70 tape perhaps eligible for inclusion in the PUPS archive under the SCO license? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA65501 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:58:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Cuenta para lectura de e-mail <cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com> Tue Jul 11 08:54:53 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA65497 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:58:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA55176 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:58:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA65457 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:55:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com) Received: from sunmex.sunmexico.Sun.COM ([129.153.198.1]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05770 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ses1 (ses1 [129.153.198.107]) by sunmex.sunmexico.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with SMTP id RAA16145 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:55:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200007102255.RAA16145(a)sunmex.sunmexico.Sun.COM> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:54:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Cuenta para lectura de e-mail <cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com> Reply-To: Cuenta para lectura de e-mail <cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com> Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software? To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: PCA20B34lXH9C2cS6nYCoQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench, which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first showed up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the same. - Chris Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA65907 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:52:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Jul 11 09:51:19 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA65903 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:52:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA55561 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:52:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA65895 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:52:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:51:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:51:19 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000710195119.202002e2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench, >which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first showed >up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the same. I don't think what I've found here is that major. It starts with a Makefile: # NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT # Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83 # makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM # This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements # to written documents, including improved versions of the # Style and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids. and the README says: This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's Workbench system source code. This information is also contained in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation and Administration Guide." These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions (pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer for the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before I make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them. The PDP11/70 tape is particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into the drive!) and it may be a goner. I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA66034 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:19:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> Tue Jul 11 10:21:30 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA66030 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:19:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA55777 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:18:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from sydnt4.cogita.local ([203.14.179.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA66021 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:18:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au) Message-ID: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583(a)sydnt4.cogita.local> From: Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> To: "'Tim Shoppa'" <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>, PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: RE: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw are? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:21:30 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Tim, Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for various Unicies. Grant Maizels grant(a)maizels.nu -----Original Message----- From: Tim Shoppa [mailto:SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com] Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2000 9:51 To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software? >I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench, >which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first showed >up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the same. I don't think what I've found here is that major. It starts with a Makefile: # NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT # Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83 # makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM # This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements # to written documents, including improved versions of the # Style and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids. and the README says: This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's Workbench system source code. This information is also contained in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation and Administration Guide." These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions (pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer for the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before I make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them. The PDP11/70 tape is particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into the drive!) and it may be a goner. I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA66635 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:25:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa [mailto:SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com] Tue Jul 11 12:12:45 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA66631 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:25:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA62138 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:24:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from host.kw.igs.net (host.kw.igs.net [216.58.99.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA66582 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:14:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from schoedel(a)kw.igs.net) Received: from [216.58.99.49] (ttyA11.kw.igs.net [216.58.99.49]) by host.kw.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA14173 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:13:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from schoedel(a)kw.igs.net) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <v04210100b5902e0219c2(a)[216.58.99.172]> In-Reply-To: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583(a)sydnt4.cogita.local> References: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583(a)sydnt4.cogita.local> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:12:45 -0400 To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU From: Kevin Schoedel <schoedel(a)kw.igs.net> Subject: [pups] RE: AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw are? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 2000/07/11 at 10:21am +1000, Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> wrote: >Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed >earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs >like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content >than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a >research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it >somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for >various Unicies. I have a little documentation here, mostly three papers from BSTJ vol. 62 no. 6, July/August 1983. It did contain -- as the makefile says -- 'diction' (basically a search for 'bad' phrases), 'style' (which generated readabilty and other statistics for text), 'punct' (a basic punctuation checker), and a handful of other similar programs. Importantly for the PUPS archive, I'm pretty certain that AT&T retained ownership of WWB when it sold UNIX, so it wouldn't be covered by the SCO license. I have no idea who owns it now. 'pic', along with troff and such, was in *Documenter's* Workbench. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel(a)kw.igs.net

24 years, 10 months

1
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[pups] Pre-startup questions

by W . Suika Roberts

I just (yesterday) aquired a microPDP 11/73 -- it had been used by my school to operate some sort of geological test equipment that is no longer present, and was working when it went out of service, who knows how long ago. She has a pair of RX02s, an RD52a inside her case, and that's all I've determined so far, since I haven't opened her up, really, yet. I'm interested in documentation on monitor commands, what the boot sequence should look like, and other such software stuff right now. I'm also wondering about useful things like: `Is the part number in a standard location on each card', `What is the form factor difference between Q-bus and Unibus', `Will starting her up trip the breaker', and `How much space is there in that little rackmount' In the near future, I'd like to find ethernet and SCSI adaptors for her, and so am wondering where parts might be aquired. Thanks, Suika (very happy) -- ssfr(a)unm.edu The computer is not mightier than a cup of coffee, or other liquid, or a young school age child with a tool box... --L. E. Waltz <a href="http://www.unm.edu/~ssfr/">Suika no homepage</a>

24 years, 10 months

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[pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines

by Tim Bradshaw

I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23. It looks like this is kind of small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think). How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this to things like 11/73,11/83? I'm wondering if I might one day be able to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away. Thanks --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05724 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:07:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jul 1 21:00:37 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05720 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:07:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id VAA61099 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:06:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA05698 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:01:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 7:00:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 7:00:37 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000701070037.262009c5(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23. It looks like this is kind of >small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have >an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think). Yeah, perhaps the best choice here would be the set of RL02's I found with a V6 system on RL02 packs. Hook up a RLV11 or a RLV12, a couple of RL02 drives, and you're in business. >How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this >to things like 11/73,11/83? I'm wondering if I might one day be able >to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same >rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away >than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away. It's very similar, but it's also rather likely that the card cage that your 11/23 comes in will only support 18-bit bus addresses. If you want to run 2.11BSD that's not really enough memory. For some details about what Q-bus hardware supports 18-bit stuff and what Q-bus hardware supports 22-bit stuff, please look at your Micronotes, specifically #5, _Q22 Compatible Options_. If you aren't lucky enough to own a set, you can browse them at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/microno… In large part, it's impossible to specify a PDP-11 as a "PDP-11/23" and know with any certainty what any single part of it is. There's much more to a system than the CPU (and note there are several very different CPU boards sold as 11/23's), you also have to consider backplane, memory, and disk/tape storage. It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on- Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint, nudge nudge!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05783 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:13:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jul 1 21:11:44 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05779 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:13:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id VAA61171 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:12:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05769 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:12:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id VAA61141; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:11:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007011111.VAA61141(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] Re: PDP-11 ptrs on minnie In-Reply-To: <000701070037.262009c5(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jul 1, 2000 7: 0:37 am" To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:11:44 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on- > Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint, > nudge nudge!) Send me the URLs & tell me where on http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS you'd like to see them :-) Warren

24 years, 10 months

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Installing SYSTEM III; stuck!

by Tim Shoppa

OK, I think I'm figuring out how to install Unix System III on a 11/45. In particular, I mount the first tape on a MT tape drive, get a RP04 up and spinning, and boot from tape: UNIX tape boot loader UNIX -- Initial Load: Tape-to-Disk The type of disk drive on which the Root file system will reside, as well as the type of tape drive that will be used for Tape 1 must be specified below. Answer the questions with a 'y' or 'n' followed by a carriage return or line feed. There is no type-ahead -- wait for the question to complete. The character '@' will kill the entire line, while the character '#' will erase the last character typed. RP03 at address 176710?: n RP04/5/6 at address 176700?: y Drive number (0-7)?: 0 Disk drive 0 selected. Mount a formatted pack on drive 0. Ready?: y TU10/TM11 at address 172520?: y Drive number (0-7)?: 0 Tape drive 0 selected. The tape on drive 0 will be read from the current position at 800bpi, 5120 characters (10 blocks) per record, and written onto the pack on drive 0 starting at block 0. Ready?: y Size of filesystem to be copied is 6000 blocks. What is the pack volume label? (e.g. p0001): p0001 The pack will be labelled p0001. The boot block for your type of disk drive will now be installed. The file system copy is now complete. To boot the basic unix for your disk and tape drives as indicated above, mount this pack on drive 0 and read in the boot block (block 0) using whatever means you have available; see romboot(8), 70boot(8). Then boot the program unixhptm using diskboot(8). Normally: #0=unixhptm The system will initially come up single-user; see init(8). If you have an upper case only console terminal, you must execute: stty lcase; see stty(1). After UNIX is up, link the file unixhptm to unix using ln(1). # ln /unixhptm /unix Set the date(1). Good Luck! The tape will now be rewound. [Now I boot from the RP04]: #0=unixhptm UNIX/3.0.1: unixhptm real mem = 253952 bytes avail mem = 187584 bytes unix single-user # ls -l total 805 drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 bck drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 1312 Dec 15 1981 bin drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 528 Dec 15 1981 dev drwxr-xr-x 3 root sys 1056 Oct 26 14:57 etc drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 272 Dec 15 1981 lib drwxrwxrwx 2 bin bin 32 May 31 1980 lost+found drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 mnt drwxrwxr-x 3 bin bin 368 Dec 15 1981 stand -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 51382 Nov 9 1982 unixhpht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50778 Sep 3 1980 unixhptm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49380 Sep 3 1980 unixrkht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 48782 Sep 3 1980 unixrktm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50172 Sep 3 1980 unixrlht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49574 Sep 3 1980 unixrltm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49704 Sep 3 1980 unixrpht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49106 Sep 3 1980 unixrptm drwxr-xr-x 2 sys sys 32 Aug 19 08:46 usr But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So what's the next step? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA52023 for pups-liszt; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:53:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sun Jun 25 18:52:47 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA52019 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:53:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id SAA20860 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:53:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA52010 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:53:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id SAA20841; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:52:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006250852.SAA20841(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck! In-Reply-To: <000624211802.2620014a(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 24, 2000 9:18: 2 pm" To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:52:47 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still > on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or > "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So > what's the next step? >From the PDP-11 SysIII in the archive, the files are cpio archives. The /usr/src/man/docs/setup file explains what to do next. It's in nroff format, but I don't know what macro switch to use to print it out correctly. I'll send it in a separate e-mail to avoid clogging up the list. Warren

24 years, 11 months

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Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote: > Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's > archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ? According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX. His Charter defines UNIX as follows: "Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs." Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it does not belong in the archive or on these lists. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05755 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Jun 20 00:27:09 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA05751 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000619102709.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want >to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It >only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be >enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install >bare-bones on that disk? You can put the root partition of 2.11BSD on there quite nicely, it'll live in 8 Mbytes. Trimming down /usr to 42 Mbytes will depend on what exactly you need from it, though. Certainly you can set up a system with compilers, etc., even though you won't be able to have all the sources online at the same time. >I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something >bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it. You want to read Terry Kennedy's document on adding third-party disks to DEC RQDX3 controllers. You can find it at ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Information about formatting, jumper settings, etc., is all there. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05794 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:35:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Andrew Sporner <andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com> Tue Jun 20 00:30:39 2000 Received: from neimail.networkengines.com (wks7.networkengines.com [64.55.6.7] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05790 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:35:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com) Received: by neimail.networkengines.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <NCDB61WD>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:45 -0400 Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C8CD(a)neimail.networkengines.com> From: Andrew Sporner <andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com> To: "'db(a)aptant.com'" <db(a)aptant.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RE: save everything and divisiveness Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk + my $0.02 makes $1.00 >From my perspective I have watched this argument on this list about purism and otherwise. >From a practical sense, historical trueness makes sense when we are considering changes to something. That is to evaluate whether it was better before or after; with the ultimate goal of coming up with a truly usefull sytem. Otherwise O/S researchers would never be able to make advancements because they would be repeating each others mistakes. But to take a lesson from history makes having such an archive of old source important. To get hung up on a particular release makes sense I guess if you are a collector, such as one who collects vases because that is an art form. A vase from the Ming chinesse period is worth more if it has not been modified (for instance some later owner decides that there are not enough flowers on the vase--so he adds some). However with Systems software this is not the case because it is not a tangible item such as a processor such as a PDP-11 or PDP-8. I know many people that still run PDP-8's (I have one myself), but universally ever user of the '8 is trying to make the software on it run better and more efficiently. So I would not be one to castigate some pioneers of systems software whoses names happened not to be K&R. I am sure that the both Kernigan and Richie both are marveled at what Unix has become. In fact I believe one of them went on to write Plan-9 which is really off-the-wall compared to their earlier work. Good software is inherrently in a steady process of evolution. The only piece of software I have ever seen that never evolved was the classic "Hello World" program that everybody learns to write on their first lesson in programming. OK, That's it... Andy Sporner > > My $0.02: > > > I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual > criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux, > FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an > earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining > several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt > to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been > used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as > well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It > yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original," > and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a > common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much > else about it, except that its results may depend on alot > of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics > work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking > of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a > work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a > technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved > with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be > more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes > that people > thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out > to be different. > In this situation, textual criticism might be used to > reconstruct a "true," V7 > release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up > application of the techniques. > > In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of > tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as > possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such > a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a > "true" release, > it is important that they document their work and not throw away the > tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more > tapes may appear in the future which could lead to > the reconstruction of an even truer tape. > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05825 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:41:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix" > in quite the same way in which you do? In this case my definition of UNIX agrees with that set by the Charters for both lists. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06069 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:20:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe(a)barrera.org> Tue Jun 20 01:17:01 2000 Received: from mail.compwebtech.com (w105.z208036038.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [208.36.38.105]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06058; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:20:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from joe(a)barrera.org) Received: from joebar ([204.153.177.175]) by mail.compwebtech.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA21587; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:11:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe(a)barrera.org) Reply-To: <joe(a)barrera.org> From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe(a)barrera.org> To: "'Michael Sokolov'" <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, <tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: RE: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:17:01 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfda01$6f987c70$0300a8c0@joebar> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. Bwa ha ha. That's pretty funny, Michael. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06137 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:35:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Broadway, Rusel" <RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk> Tue Jun 20 01:29:44 2000 Received: from relay3.mail.uk.psi.net (relay3.mail.uk.psi.net [154.32.109.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06133 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:35:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk) Received: from mail.tbs-ltd.co.uk ([195.153.6.162] helo=mimesweeper.tbs-ltd.co.uk) by relay3.mail.uk.psi.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1343XJ-0000pI-00 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:32:29 +0100 Received: from coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk (unverified) by mimesweeper.tbs-ltd.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id <B0000229964(a)mimesweeper.tbs-ltd.co.uk> for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:35:23 +0100 Received: by coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk.50.130.194.in-addr.arpa with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <LG747B43>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:45 +0100 Message-Id: <9114940C5E0FD31186950008C7B9A6021845D4(a)coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk.50.130.194.in-addr.arpa> From: "Broadway, Rusel" <RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk> To: "'pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BFDA03.32131372" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: text/plain ********************** N O T I C E ********************************* This information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review , retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses, however we cannot guarantee that this message is free from such problems. ********************************************************************** ------_=_NextPart_000_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFDA03.32131372" ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree with Thor: Either grow up or get out! Rusel Broadway Senior Systems Analyst (e-mail Rbroadway(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk <mailto:Rbroadway@tbs-ltd.co.uk> , DDI: 01206-25-5745) The Book Service Ltd. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D259143015-19062000>I = agree with Thor:=20 Either grow up or get out!</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"></P> <P><IMG height=3D48 src=3D"cid:259143015@19062000-0583" = width=3D48><FONT color=3D#800000=20 face=3DScript size=3D6>Rusel Broadway </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>Senior=20 Systems Analyst (e-mail </FONT><A=20 href=3D"mailto:Rbroadway@tbs-ltd.co.uk">Rbroadway(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk</A><FONT= =20 face=3DArial size=3D2>, DDI: 01206-25-5745)</FONT><BR><FONT = face=3DArial size=3D2>The=20 Book Service Ltd.</P></FONT> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFDA03.32131372-- ------_=_NextPart_000_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: image/gif; 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Tue, 20 Jun 2000 04:03:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Tue Jun 20 03:59:54 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06941 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 04:02:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA76288; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA37108; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <20000619105954.D2592(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006191437.AA05415(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006191437.AA05415(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about ^^^^^ This is *TOTALY* uncalled for. Warren, Michael has definitely crossed the bounds of lack of respect for others. Would you please consider moderating his posts? -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX > code and thus of no relevance to this group] By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05998 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:14:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05994; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:14:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D4530F38; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id LAA05865; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <0006191440.AA05429(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX > > code and thus of no relevance to this group] > > By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere. I'm also asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere. Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix" in quite the same way in which you do? Of course not. Your opinion is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he goes away. Great. Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation project. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06047 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:19:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> wrote: > * Markus Leypold wrote: > > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern > > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), > > Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really > *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did > hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move, > myself. Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-) To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture. There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about "modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced, VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real VAXen. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05864 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:45:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
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Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote: > And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the > genuine article'. No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an RA81 across the campus. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:12:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000 Received: from mud.stack.nl (postfix(a)stack-gw.ipv6.stack.nl [131.155.141.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05653 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:12:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from martijnb(a)stack.nl) Received: by mud.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 587) id 0D8887F08; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200 From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> To: PUPS mailinglist <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices Message-ID: <20000619160836.A12288(a)mud.stack.nl> Reply-To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hello! I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install bare-bones on that disk? I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it. Your help is greatly appreciated.. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05774 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:31:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: List Charter, please

by Warren Toomey

In article by Alan F R Bain: > Warren, > Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines. > Alan Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then please e-mail me. Warren The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs. Topics that fall within the list's charter include: + how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system + discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix + applications for PDP-11 Unix systems + modification of PDP-11 Unix systems + technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems + anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix + discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11 section of the Unix Archive Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include: + discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems + attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations + postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version of PDP-11 Unix The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that effect, then their postings may be moderated. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04039 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:01:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04035; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:01:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C301060; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA24577; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190758.JAA24577(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG) Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area References: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT > From: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) > Sender: owner-tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, > > Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250 > BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in > > Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha > > Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival > and preservation section of our project. Hi Friends, I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or architecture, i.e. BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions. Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me. Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future generations of software historians will be very thankful. Regards -- Markus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04080 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:14:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04076 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:14:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B301060; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:49 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24592; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190811.KAA24592(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> (apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org) Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> > Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000 > Lines: 13 > User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes: > > > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > > material of this nature on the lists. > > > > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. > > No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said > something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend > to the death your right to say it." > > You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it. I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being treated somewhat more respectfully :-) UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system. On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that, and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp. I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic. Regards -- Markus > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:19:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04096 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:19:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DE91060; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:04 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24598; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190816.KAA24598(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU In-reply-to: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400) Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question References: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Yesterday I asked: > > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >didn't remember... > > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the > "fairly recent" end: > > 2.9 from 1983 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983 > 2.10BSD from 1987 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989 > 2.11BSD from the past year > > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? > I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-) > proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be > adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in. Hi Tim, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the transfer of features between the diverse branches. Regards Markus. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04208 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:52:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04203 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:52:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2D81060; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:49:00 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24676; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:48:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:48:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190848.KAA24676(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk Cc: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com In-reply-to: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> (message from Robin Birch on Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100) Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100 > Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com > From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz > <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes > >Hi -- > > > > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > > > >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > >> Yesterday I asked: > >> > >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >> >didn't remember... > >> > >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > > > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) > > > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the > archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely > historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would > normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might > have some effects on the archive structure. Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them. Regards -- Markus > > Robin > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk > > M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04250 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:01:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04246 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:01:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C983A1062; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24686; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190858.KAA24686(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: mallison(a)konnections.com Cc: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> (mallison(a)konnections.com) Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something > to me. > > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with > PUPS and now TUHS. > > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486 Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's offspring. Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ? > > The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you > is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions > to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But > the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not > pertinent to running UNIX System N.n > > Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per > se. > > Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running > regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. > > I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to > define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community certainly should be a parameter :-) It makes me sad to see all this. Regards -- Markus > Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) > > -Mike > > Mike Allison > Stranded in Utah, USA > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> > To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> > Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive > > > >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. > And > >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they > are > >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > > > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04261 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:02:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04257 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:02:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3091062; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:44 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24689; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190859.KAA24689(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: kshuff(a)fast.net Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400) Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 > From: kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> > Organization: I'm not organized > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > > > > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share > your views > and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run > more "modern" > hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the > past. And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the genuine article'. -- Markus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04779 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:36:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000 Received: from lostwithiel.cley.com (lostwithiel.cley.com [212.240.242.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04775 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:36:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tfb(a)lostwithiel.cley.com) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by lostwithiel.cley.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA12830; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:15 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I); VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14669.63150.572660.30605(a)cley.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:14 +0100 (BST) To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Cc: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <200006190811.KAA24592(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006190811.KAA24592(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk * Markus Leypold wrote: > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move, myself. --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04954 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:22:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04949 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:22:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BC7156AE; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id HAA23662; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000619071911.A23440(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> <200006190858.KAA24686(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006190858.KAA24686(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>; from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote: > > > > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> > > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 > > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something > > to me. > > > > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with > > PUPS and now TUHS. > > > > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these > > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). > > Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only > yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD > brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486 > Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's > offspring. For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph, it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right. Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially done for what became BSDI. A somewhat infamous falling-out during Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386. BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1. Jolitz kept saying things about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it wouldn't be released soon, if ever. A semi-official "patchkit" sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus patchkit X. Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like focus to the 386BSD chaos. An early snapshot of this made its way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to participate. NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD. Though there was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work -- there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot. Since these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05220 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:41:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com> Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000 Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05216 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:41:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from db(a)aptant.com) Received: from aptant.com (pool0126.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.126]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA19498 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <394E13B9.19957855(a)aptant.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:37:08 -0700 From: Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com> Reply-To: db(a)aptant.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: save everything Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk My $0.02: I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux, FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original," and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much else about it, except that its results may depend on alot of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different. In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7 release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques. In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release, it is important that they document their work and not throw away the tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more tapes may appear in the future which could lead to the reconstruction of an even truer tape. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05638 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:09:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...

by Eric Fischer

Tim Shoppa writes, > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > but not real complete. Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the previous versions. I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/ eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA95323 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:26:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net> Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000 Received: from racine.cybercable.fr (racine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA95319 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:26:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from root(a)gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 3176149 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2000 00:23:23 -0000 Received: from r224m65.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.224.65]) (envelope-sender <root(a)gits.dyndns.org>) by racine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; 18 Jun 2000 00:23:23 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA11860; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:23:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) Posted-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:23:22 +0200 (CEST) To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Reply-To: clefevre(a)citeweb.net X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<<r#uCVjK"~Ke!(a)0vxS/.,wki/c|uVnNV!BA-_gY2sfoGc3 f{#/$PT>97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C From: Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net> Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:23:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT" Message-ID: <em5vbzwm.fsf(a)pc166.gits.fr> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes: [snip] > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And > I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7(a)home.com ? it's a joke :) Cyrille. -- home:mailto:clefevre@no-spam.citeweb.net Supprimer "no-spam." pour me repondre. work:mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@no-spam.edf.fr Remove "no-spam." to answer me back.

24 years, 11 months

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Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote: > That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy, > McKusick, or Lefler on your list. Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V research UNIX. > So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD > rather than some System III/V [...] Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7 and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em- five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up instead. Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> wrote: > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share > your views > and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run > more "modern" > hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the > past. Then why are you on this list? -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA93867 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:16:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sun Jun 18 04:13:45 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA93858 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:16:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA65551; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA05884; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000617111345.H69941(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy, McKusick, or Lefler on your list. So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD rather than some System III/V + 2BSD?? Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T kernel quite a bit. Or did you not know that they touched that code. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA94035 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:44:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote: > Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. > > [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut > out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the > code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD, > and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics] It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free clickwrap license. If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92914 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:24:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk> Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000 Received: from gnyf.wheel.dk (IDENT:root@gnyf.wheel.dk [193.162.159.104]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA92910 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:24:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from soren(a)gnyf.wheel.dk) Received: (from soren@localhost) by gnyf.wheel.dk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA24275; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200 From: "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000617172141.A24254(a)gnyf.wheel.dk> References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list. -- Soren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93266 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:07:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000 Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA93262 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:07:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mallison(a)konnections.com) Received: from oemcomputer (ip122-171.konnections.com [209.63.122.171]) by mail.konnections.com (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16996; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:56:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mallison(a)konnections.com) Message-ID: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> To: "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something to me. I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with PUPS and now TUHS. Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not pertinent to running UNIX System N.n Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per se. Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) -Mike Mike Allison Stranded in Utah, USA -----Original Message----- From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93311 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Sat Jun 17 09:09:00 2000 Received: from post3.fast.net (post3.fast.net [198.69.204.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA93307 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from kshuff(a)fast.net) Received: from homer (maxtnt14-abe-489.fast.net [209.92.93.235]) by post3.fast.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01931 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 From: kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> Reply-To: kshuff(a)fast.net Organization: I'm not organized X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Michael Sokolov wrote: > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And > I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share your views and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run more "modern" hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the past. K.S. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA93671 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:38:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...

by pups＠mrynet.com

> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > > > > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > > > but not real complete. > > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: > > [... and more spewage ...] > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. > > Thor I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies. Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and are downright rude and insulting. Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved in faces at every opportunity is intolerable. Regards, Scott G. Taylor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89002 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:13:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA88997 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:13:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA59906 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA68731 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>; from tls(a)rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing > > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real > > > complete. > > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: > > [... and more spewage ...] > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:14:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89009 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:14:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA59924; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA68746; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <20000616161145.G35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006161927.AA01375(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006161927.AA01375(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I know this of course, I have one. Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk space with this email? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89383 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:24:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000 Received: from hackaholic.org (IDENT:qmailr@d174.as1.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.130.240]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA89379 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:24:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org) Received: (qmail 484 invoked by uid 501); 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000 In-Reply-To: "David O'Brien"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700" Message-ID: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes: > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > material of this nature on the lists. > > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89414 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:31:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA89410 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:31:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA55686 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm" To: Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. > Thor While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs, so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings you could say: As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details. I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive. For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you might post something like: In article by Joe Bloe: > I think turtles are ugly. I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter with the mailing list. I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive and not divisive. Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff, which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to the right list!!! Thank you, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89425 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:32:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA89421 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:32:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Yesterday I asked: >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry >didn't remember... Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the "fairly recent" end: 2.9 from 1983 2.9.1BSD from 1983 2.10BSD from 1987 2.10.1BSD from 1989 2.11BSD from the past year Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89441 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:33:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA89437 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:33:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA55766 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:31:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA89331; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:10:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA55558; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006170007.KAA55558(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Digest? In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289(a)home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000 7:43:50 am" To: robport(a)home.com (Robert Porter) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society), tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Robert Porter: > Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some > sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email > than I get otherwise). Send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines: unsubscribe tuhs unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest subscribe tuhs-digest Cheers! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA89882 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:12:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA89878 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:12:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA24691; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Yesterday I asked: > > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >didn't remember... > > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted ("real work" the boss wanted ;)). It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%. The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues and distribution. There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991). > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the > "fairly recent" end: > > 2.9 from 1983 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983 > 2.10BSD from 1987 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989 2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991 > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA90344 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:22:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA90340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:22:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F31515509; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id XAA05112; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > material of this nature on the lists. > > Thor > > While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as > I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating. I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA90790 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:57:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA90786 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:57:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA60868 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA69857 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com>; from tls(a)rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting > insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, > catalog, and preserve. Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley" talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution". This is on-line at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote: During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic brought up the subject of the popularity of the freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel. Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion. Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their only compensation would be to have their name listed among the Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten. Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had originated in the 32/V release. With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith should be tolerated. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91896 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:42:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000 Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA91892 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:42:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 133G0Y-000AxM-0X; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:39:23 +0100 Message-ID: <Hf1bqXARU1S5EwcL(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100 To: obrien(a)NUXI.com Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> In-Reply-To: <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.00 U <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xwlBrCeVCW> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes >On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: >> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting >> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, >> catalog, and preserve. > >Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. > >Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley" >talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to >Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open >Source Revolution". This is on-line at >http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote: > > During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic > brought up the subject of the popularity of the > freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the > possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the > BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing > large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he > could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of > utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel. > Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion. > > Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based > development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities > from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their > only compensation would be to have their name listed among the > Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they > rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the > trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and > Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events > such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon > the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly > all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten. > > Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in > hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to > our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going > over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had > originated in the 32/V release. > >With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith >should be tolerated. > Seconded!!! ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91880 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:40:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000 Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA91876 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:40:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 133Fyd-000Auo-0X; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:37:24 +0100 Message-ID: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> In-Reply-To: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.00 U <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xwlBrCeVCW> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes >Hi -- > > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> >> Yesterday I asked: >> >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry >> >didn't remember... >> >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might have some effects on the archive structure. Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92845 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:08:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > but not real complete. The line of True UNIX development is straight: V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: 4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD 1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system, which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the intended targets. Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s, ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA88616 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:47:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA88612 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:46:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CB6155AB for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id RAA20868 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > > but not real complete. > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: [... and more spewage ...] I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory material of this nature on the lists. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA88970 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250 BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival and preservation section of our project. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA88281 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:18:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 06:16:00 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA88277 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:18:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000616161600.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of >distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: > >1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, >4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, >4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS >files. That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real complete. Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History Graphing project? I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what was changed/added/deleted. (Did I just volunteer?!?) Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo distributions kicking around? Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA88374 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

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Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote: > It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of > distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: > > 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, > 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, > 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS > files. I know this of course, I have one. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover > letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape > for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the > tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this > the holy grail? OK, I dunno whether it qualifies as "the holy grail" or not, but yes, it is the 4.4BSD-Alpha dist. > I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release. OK, just upload both if you can, I'll be happy to put them in the archive and I'm sure Warren will be too. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA84892 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:42:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Sat Jun 17 02:31:18 2000 Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA84888 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:42:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2 [206.229.84.2]) by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05790 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:37:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 vocoder timing; FreeBSD kernel woes Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006161046320.22889-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Sorry in advance if you unintentionally deleted this message because of the topic, I'm an incorrigable smart-arse and couldn't resist. My other idea was ILOVEYOU, but that's been done before... > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. The initiator of this post was yours truly. I have been silet since this post. I hate politics. I figured, "just let it simmer down and then rationally respond." I hate flamefesten. Sorry. Can't please everybody all the time. Hey, I don't even try, most of the time. I find that sitting on the fence can be quite an uncomfortable position to be in, especially if you're on one of the fenceposts. But, wie immer, I digress. I didn't mean to crowd your (that is, the royal "your") mailbox with my hardware woes. I had some issues, directly related to my _usage_ of PDP-11 UNIX, and, insofar as both the mentioned PDP-11 mailing list and the DECUS PDP-11 list on eisner.decus.org are both ghost towns, and several members of this mailing list seem to know quite a bit about both the hardware platform and the software I choose to run (2.11BSD), I dreamt of things that never were and said "why not." Thanks to the knowledge of fellow list-members, my questions were answered, my problem was solved, and the result is now available in the PUPS archive under Tools/Disks/rx50-FreeBSD.tar.gz (no comments on code quality to the group, please; that would be off-topic [read: embarassing] :) Qs and Cs to jasomill(a)indiana.edu welcome), which is useful to me and may possibly be of some interest to other PDP-11 UNIX hobbyists trying to solve the same problem. I read the entire PUPS mailing list archive before making my first post. I've noticed that the top three platform-specific topics seem to be (in order of appearance): 1) emulator software 2) VAX hardware 3) PDP hardware I don't use an emulator and I don't have a VAX (though I want one very very much, but admittably to run VMS mostly), but the discussions don't bother me. As a matter of fact, some of them interest me; those that don't, I skip. Anyway, just an observation. I know it's not the PHPS, but I can not be dissuaded in my belief that actually _using_ the systems is a vital part of a living preservation effort, and using them without functional hardware is a bit difficult, emulators notwithstanding. But please don't deactivate me :), I'll read a UHS list and a PUPS list and a VAX list and an RT-PC list (I've been wanting to get my hands on one of those buggers for awhile, actually), desirous of everything at the same time, and try my best not to yawn and say commonplace things (apologizes to Jack Kerouac). Thanks again for help and interesting discussion, to all parties involved, mad to talk or less so. What about archiving PDP hardware information? I don't mean discussing obscure timing details of RK05 controllers or anything, but having a section of the archive for random hardware tidbits re: PDP. It's not _directly_ related to UNIX preservation, but it'd be a boon to PDP UNIX users (not to mention keeping list traffic down in re: these things), and its space requirements are miniscule. Maybe wait until the PDP-specific stuff is split off, and create a directory. I'd be happy to maintain it (I'm also attempting to contact DEC ne Compaq about getting some legacy docs released; those, of course, would be included; no, that's not what Mentec bought, I don't think, that's RSX and RSTS/E and RT-11, maybe even Ultrix. They provide engineering support to DEC PDP-11 customers as well as compatible hardware, but I believe Compaq still owns the copyrights to the Digital hardware documentation. Not 100% sure though). Once again, sorry, once again, thanks, and in closing, AWWWW, jasomill Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA87825 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:14:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 05:11:28 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA87821 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:14:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA58858 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA67489 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <20000616121128.A35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006161444.AA00776(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006161444.AA00776(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 09:44:07AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS files. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA87954 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

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4.2BSD dist in the TUHS/PUPS archive: resolution

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, Since early fall 1998 the archive has had an incomplete distribution of 4.2BSD reconstructed from some bogus tape images from Per Andersson. This morning Tim Shoppa read an authentic 4.2BSD tape dist. I compared it with the incomplete dist in the archive and found that it is the same dist, Tim Shoppa's version is complete and correct, and Per Andersson's version was incomplete. The files that were in the archive were correct. I added the missing files this morning, making the 4.2BSD dist in the archive complete. It is in Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD, it is a superset of what was there before (because what was there before was just missing some files), and it identically matches Tim Shoppa's copy in his home directory. I left Per Andersson's original (bogus) files in the Per_Andersson subdirectory. Warren, it's up to you if you want to keep or delete them. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84202 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:48:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

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Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down > on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated > "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has > the original UCB stickers on it. Yes. > * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot > 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is > something like this already in Kirk's archive? Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and I'll include it in my 4BSD collection. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA82759 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:09:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 00:07:07 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA82755 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:09:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000616100707.2620009e(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot >> 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is >> something like this already in Kirk's archive? >Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've >seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and >I'll include it in my 4BSD collection. I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this the holy grail? I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84172 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:40:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

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Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. > > [contents skipped, perfectly matches CSRG 4.2BSD dist] Yes, please read them and I'll put them in the archive. I maintain the 4BSD area. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA78621 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:06:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 16 12:04:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA78617 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:06:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA46483; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006160204.MAA46483(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 15, 2000 9: 6:31 pm" To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. > Tape 1: > > AT&T 60462 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: Root and Selectables Yes please, I have sysVR0 in the archive at the moment. > Tape 2: > AT&T 60463 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: USR File System Yes please. Don't have it yet! > Tape 3: > UNIX* System III > PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI Could be the same as Distributions/usdl/SysIII, but read it anyway! > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. Again, yes please!!! Thanks Tim. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA79038 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:27:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 13:24:51 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA79034 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:27:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Again, yes please!!! Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers would say) "the original virgin" tapes. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81018 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:07:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Jun 16 18:04:53 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA81014 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:07:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8B71067; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:55 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12190; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006160804.KAA12190(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU In-reply-to: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400) Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued References: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk WOW. Great. Super !! :-) ------------------ > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. > Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular, > I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to > me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the > grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD > might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the > archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-). > > The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen: > > Tape 1: > > AT&T 60462 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: Root and Selectables > > AT&T 60462 > Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1 > TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2 > Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 > Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2 > > > Tape 2: > AT&T 60463 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: USR File System > > AT&T 60463 > Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2 > TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2 > Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 > Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0 > > > The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T: > > Tape 3: > UNIX* System III > PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI > Release Tape #1 > *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories > > Restricted Rights > Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject > To Restrictions Stated in your contract with > American Telephone & Telegraph > > The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I > can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the > files already in the PUPS archives): > > Tape 4: > > Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD > Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 > 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files > skip the first 7 tape files with > ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7'' > Reel 1 of 2 Tape # > > Tape 5: > Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD > Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 > 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src > Reel 2 of 2 > > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. > > Tape 6: > 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 > 6 files on tape: > 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root) > 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr) > 6 (/usr/lib/vfont) > last three are tar; 1600 bpi > > Tape 7: > 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 > tape 2: 3 files on tape > 1 (/usr/src) > 2 (user contributed software) > 3 (/usr/ingres) > all files are tar; 1600 bpi > > Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there > are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile... > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81036 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:10:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Jun 16 18:08:07 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA81032 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:10:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBC51067; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:08 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12196; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006160808.KAA12196(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU In-reply-to: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400) Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued References: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > Again, yes please!!! > > Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans > of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for > the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers > would say) "the original virgin" tapes. Well, I'm presently only a client of the archive, so to say, but why not use png (the gif replacement advocated by the FSF). Better not use GIF for all this licensing issues. And as far as I see, png can be shown by -- well -- Netscape, whereas TIFF requires a plugin or an external viewer. Regards - Markus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA81738 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:24:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 21:21:56 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA81734 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:24:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000616072156.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk OK, I started sorting through some more piles of tapes, and I found a one more thing that I'm-not-quite-sure-where-it-fits: Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry didn't remember... Also, more goodies that may (or may not) be appropriate to add: * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has the original UCB stickers on it. * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is something like this already in Kirk's archive? Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA81919 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:03:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Help reviewing PDP-11 model processors

by lars brinkhoff

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to alt.sys.pdp11 as well. Time for the second round of assembler source code review. If the user specifies a PDP-11 model to the assembler (e.g. -m11/45), this code is used to tell the assembler what processor to assemble for. Also, in one case (11/34a), the model enables FP-11 floating-point instructions. Should this be done for 11/34c too? If there are any other models with otherwise optional features installed, I'd like to know. if (strcmp (arg, "03") == 0) /* 11/03 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11f"); /* KD11-F */ else if (strcmp (arg, "04") == 0) /* 11/04 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11d"); /* KD11-D */ else if (strcmp (arg, "05") == 0 || /* 11/05 or 11/10 */ strcmp (arg, "10") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kd11b"); /* KD11-B */ else if (strcmp (arg, "15") == 0 || /* 11/15 or 11/20 */ strcmp (arg, "20") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("ka11"); /* KA11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "21") == 0) /* 11/21 */ return set_cpu_model ("t11"); /* T11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "24") == 0) /* 11/24 */ return set_cpu_model ("f11"); /* F11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "34") == 0) /* 11/34 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11e"); /* KD11-E */ else if (strcmp (arg, "34a") == 0) /* 11/34a */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11e") && /* KD11-E with FP-11 */ set_option ("fpp"); else if (strcmp (arg, "35") == 0 || /* 11/35 or 11/40 */ strcmp (arg, "40") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kd11da"); /* KD11-A */ else if (strcmp (arg, "44") == 0) /* 11/44 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11dz"); /* KD11-Z */ else if (strcmp (arg, "45") == 0 || /* 11/45/50/55/70 */ strcmp (arg, "50") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "55") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "70") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kb11"); /* KB11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "60") == 0) /* 11/60 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11k"); /* KD11-K */ else if (strcmp (arg, "53") == 0 || /* 11/53/73/83/84/93/94 */ strcmp (arg, "73") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "83") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "84") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "93") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "94") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("j11"); /* J11 */ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78381 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:09:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 11:06:31 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA78377 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:09:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular, I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-). The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen: Tape 1: AT&T 60462 Unix System V Release 2.0 VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 TPName: Root and Selectables AT&T 60462 Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1 TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2 Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2 Tape 2: AT&T 60463 Unix System V Release 2.0 VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 TPName: USR File System AT&T 60463 Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2 TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2 Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0 The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T: Tape 3: UNIX* System III PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI Release Tape #1 *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories Restricted Rights Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject To Restrictions Stated in your contract with American Telephone & Telegraph The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the files already in the PUPS archives): Tape 4: Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files skip the first 7 tape files with ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7'' Reel 1 of 2 Tape # Tape 5: Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src Reel 2 of 2 And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. Tape 6: 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 6 files on tape: 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root) 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr) 6 (/usr/lib/vfont) last three are tar; 1600 bpi Tape 7: 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 tape 2: 3 files on tape 1 (/usr/src) 2 (user contributed software) 3 (/usr/ingres) all files are tar; 1600 bpi Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78462 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:34:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List

by William King

Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA67358 for pups-liszt; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:39:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed Jun 14 19:32:07 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA67354 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id VAA36479 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:36:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA66909 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:34:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 1329Wp-0003Na-00; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:32:07 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Help reviewing processor features From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 14 Jun 2000 11:32:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700" Message-ID: <85itvcbobs.fsf_-_(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk The following is source code taken verbatim from my PDP-11 support code for the GNU assembler. Any help correcting errors would be appreciated. This code tells the assembler what instruction set features to recognize depending on what processor the user wants to assemble for. Individual features can also be enabled, e.g. if a processor option is installed. The instruction set features are: cis Commersial instruction set (optional on all processors?). csm CSM instruction. eis Extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, and all of limited-eis. fis KEV11 floating-point instructions. fpp FP-11 floating-point instructions. limited-eis Limited extended instruction set: RTT, MARK, SXT, XOR, SOB. mfpt MFPT instruction. multiproc Multiprocessor instructions: TSTSET, WRTLCK. mxps MFPS and MTPS instructions. spl SPLx instructions. ucode Microcode instructions: LDUB, MED, XFC. if (strncmp (buf, "a", 1) == 0) /* KA11 (11/15/20) */ return 1; /* no extensions */ else if (strncmp (buf, "b", 1) == 0) /* KB11 (11/45/50/55/70) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "da", 2) == 0) /* KD11-A (11/35/40) */ return set_option ("limited-eis"); else if (strncmp (buf, "db", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-B (11/05/10) */ strncmp (buf, "dd", 2) == 0) /* KD11-D (11/04) */ return 1; /* no extensions */ else if (strncmp (buf, "de", 2) == 0) /* KD11-E (11/34) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "df", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-F (11/03) */ strncmp (buf, "dh", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-H (11/03) */ strncmp (buf, "dq", 2) == 0) /* KD11-Q (11/03) */ return set_option ("limited-eis") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "dk", 2) == 0) /* KD11-K (11/60) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("ucode"); else if (strncmp (buf, "dz", 2) == 0) /* KD11-Z (11/44) */ return set_option ("csm") && set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "f", 1) == 0) /* F11 (11/24) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "j", 1) == 0) /* J11 (11/53/73/83/84/93/94)*/ return set_option ("csm") && set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("multiproc") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "t", 1) == 0) /* T11 (11/21) */ return set_option ("limited-eis") && set_option ("mxps");

24 years, 11 months

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New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE

by Warren Toomey

In article by David O'Brien: > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. I will create one today or tomorrow: tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Unix Heritage pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au PDP-11 Unix You will all be subscribed to both lists. To be removed from a list, send e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the line unsubscribe pups, or unsubscribe tuhs For those on the digested list (twice weekly), ditto except unsubscribe pups-digest, or unsubscribe tuhs-digest I will announce the new list(s) using them as a vehicle soon. That way, the announcement becomes some test mail :) Until then, tolerate the system-specific e-mail for just a bit longer. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA57976 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:57:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Tue Jun 13 08:55:42 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA57972 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:57:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA33183; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA33560; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:42 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE Message-ID: <20000612155542.G27421(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <200006122250.IAA24777(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006122250.IAA24777(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by David O'Brien: > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Hi Warren, I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11 info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA58018 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:08:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jun 13 09:05:56 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA58014 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:08:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA24939; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006122305.JAA24939(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE In-Reply-To: <20000612155542.G27421(a)dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 12, 2000 3:55:42 pm" To: obrien(a)NUXI.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by David O'Brien: > I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the > combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11 > info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on > to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong. > -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Everybody, here is a person who has courage & honesty. Thanks for that, David. However, I will still create two groups, because it will allow more specific content to be addressed where relevant. Cheers! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA58497 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jun 13 10:40:04 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA58493 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA25646 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:43:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA58474 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:42:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA25608 for pups@minnie; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006130040.KAA25608(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hello, This is to inform you that you are subscribed to the PDP Unix Preservation Society's mailing list at pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. This list is specifically to deal with running versions of Unix on the PDP-11 platforms. If you are not interested in this topic, please send some e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of the message: unsubscribe pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au If you are subscribed to the digest version, then you can unsubscribe by sending e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of the message: unsubscribe pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Cheers! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA60574 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:09:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Tue Jun 13 18:07:05 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA60570 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:09:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E551062; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA54220; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006130807.KAA54220(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: tfb(a)cley.com Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <14660.61330.622418.671382(a)cley.com> (message from Tim Bradshaw on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)) Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <14660.61330.622418.671382(a)cley.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST) > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > * David O'Brien wrote: > > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > > hardware. > > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. > > Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of > hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a > long time. So do I. Actually I can understand the need of some participants to somehow reduce their mail volume. On the other side, it seems to be quite difficult to draw the exact line between on- and offtopic. Personally I try to filter as good as I can, and admittedly I do not read everything at once (and sometimes only weeks later). Regards -- Markus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA63516 for pups-liszt; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:00:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jun 13 04:49:12 2000 Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com ([216.88.157.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA63512 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:00:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00661; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS Message-ID: <20000612114912.G242(a)sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200006010025.KAA49471(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 10:25:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the > future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive. > > For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally > I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the > Archive as that was my interest. > > Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such > as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns > etc. > > A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any > Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated > as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g > 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project). > > I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society > (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/) which would allow a number of groups > like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their > efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea. > > Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11 > stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a > mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it > goes off to /dev/null. > > So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of > the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives, > mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned. > > Questions: > - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives? I don't really think it makes any difference. Structure one archive well, and you can get the individual platform archives simply by going down a directory level. The problem is, of course, that some software can be relevant to multiple platforms. > - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.) I'd be inclined to go for the hardware platform, but I haven't thought it through. Ultimately it would probably depend on the nature of the software that came in. > - if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you > consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could > sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella? No, I don't think so. But you might be able to twist my arm. > - do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive, > mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could > point to? No. > - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'', > or would you rather have more specific lists? Personally I'd like it to be all-encompassing, but then, it's only a small part of the 1000 messages I get per day, and it's easy to delete messages I don't want to read. > [ now stands back for the deluge! ] That really happened, didn't it? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 11 months

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problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown

by Christian Groessler

Hi, (Sorry if this is a FAQ) I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images. This is what happens: ---------------------- gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 18b sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown sim> boot rp 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON panic: buffers no fs on dev 10/0 dumping to dev 5001 off 512 dump args:EINVAL HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162) sim> ---------------------- What am I doing wrong? regards, chris Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51856 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:41:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jun 12 09:36:45 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA51851 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:41:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12888; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006112336.QAA12888(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: cpg(a)aladdin.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> > > I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images. > This is what happens: > > PDP-11 simulator V2.3d > sim> set cpu 18b Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs. > panic: buffers Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb. > What am I doing wrong? Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA52060 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:45:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> Mon Jun 12 10:37:24 2000 Received: from saturn.aladdin.de (saturn.aladdin.de [194.123.19.66]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA52056 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:45:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from cpg(a)aladdin.de) Received: by saturn.aladdin.de(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.2 (693.3 8-11-1998)) id 412568FC.00097079 ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:43:06 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AKS From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-ID: <412568FC.00096F95.00(a)saturn.aladdin.de> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:37:24 +0100 Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 06/11/2000 11:36:45 PM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > >> >> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d >> sim> set cpu 18b > > Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have > a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough > for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs. > >> panic: buffers > > Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any > memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means > there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb. > >> What am I doing wrong? > > Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still > fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;) Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work: --------------------- gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 22b sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown sim> boot rp 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON panic: buffers no fs on dev 10/0 dumping to dev 5001 off 512 dump args:EINVAL HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162) sim> --------------------- What is "Plan B"? :-) regards, chris Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52223 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:41:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jun 12 11:33:37 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA52219 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:41:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13674; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006120133.SAA13674(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: cpg(a)aladdin.de, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> > Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work: > sim> set cpu 22b > sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown > sim> boot rp > What is "Plan B"? :-) Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible). Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here. It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't try that by itself. Script started on Sun Jun 11 18:30:40 2000 moe.1-> cat f set cpu 22B set cpu 2048K att rp0 rp boot rp moe.2-> pdp11 f PDP-11 simulator V2.3d 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON attaching lo0 phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1668352 user mem = 307200 January 8 06:50:29 init: configure system lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No CSR. cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # halt syncing disks... done halting HALT instruction, PC: 000014 (MOV #1,12456) sim> q Goodbye moe.3-> exit exit Script done on Sun Jun 11 18:30:59 2000 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA55064 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:39:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> Mon Jun 12 23:34:47 2000 Received: from saturn.aladdin.de (saturn.aladdin.de [194.123.19.66]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA55060 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:39:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from cpg(a)aladdin.de) Received: by saturn.aladdin.de(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.2 (693.3 8-11-1998)) id 412568FC.00505777 ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:37:32 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AKS From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-ID: <412568FC.005055C9.00(a)saturn.aladdin.de> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:34:47 +0100 Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 06/12/2000 01:33:37 AM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying > "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it > does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have > 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible). > > Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here. > > It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't > try that by itself. It works :-) :-) Thanks for your help! regards, chris Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA55279 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:14:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Tue Jun 13 00:11:30 2000 Received: from lostwithiel.cley.com (lostwithiel.cley.com [212.240.242.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA55275 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:14:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tfb(a)lostwithiel.cley.com) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by lostwithiel.cley.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA20719 for PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:31 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I); VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14660.61330.622418.671382(a)cley.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST) To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk * David O'Brien wrote: > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a long time. --tim

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

RX02 diskettes

by Jason T. Miller

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle > of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks... -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38020 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:01:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA38016 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:01:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running Unix on PDP-11's. OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's look at what else he discussed: * The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices. * The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices. * Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix. * The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques to their operation. All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38149 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:23:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr> Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000 Received: from baoule.ath.cx (daemon(a)ppp-44-48-96.wmar.club-internet.fr [213.44.48.96]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA38142 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:23:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr) Received: (from gael@localhost) by baoule.ath.cx (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e59LKp129969 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200 From: Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762(a)baoule.ath.cx> References: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com>; from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.16 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the > Bourne shell. Hence, a project. And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history (contrary to bash) look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38483 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:25:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA38479 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:25:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03297; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA60924; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>; from SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > > read this list for. > > I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware discussion. > All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing > list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the > subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this hardware. I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I guess one needs to be created) would be possible. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39191 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:34:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA39187 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:34:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000609213224.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >> > read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least >Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed >directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware >discussion. Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence of Unix. Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving, they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave. I swear, it was a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long. >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? >This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, >but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the >first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be >gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware >discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this >hardware. I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix. >I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I >guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11(a)village.org) already, gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. To a large extent, though, you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...) If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would platform-specific discussions be banned from that? I probably would be bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities to give concrete examples. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39261 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:57:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA39257 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:57:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA63170; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Cc: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>, PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000610112448.K81728(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday, 9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >>> read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least > > Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed > directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware > discussion. > >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list. But I thought it was interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect. Some of these things (write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for example. I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists. Most of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with > the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he > forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) We do use inline of course. I love it. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37569 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 10 05:37:25 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA37565 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)[209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02370; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA49090; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000609123725.S55675(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:42:16AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) read this list for.

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jason T. Miller <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> wrote: > (my loving father having discarded my > DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist property. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34141 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA34137 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:16:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v0421010ab566b93d974a(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Jason Miller wrote: >(not only >does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the >ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at >night when I think nobody's watching) Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_ in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail. I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer. -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA37120 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA37116 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10654; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > > This is pure luxury. > > > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to build. > I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times > as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" > processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the > swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. True. > Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; > I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, > pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA37260 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA37256 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18214; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > write: Read-only file system > > 2+0 records in > > 2+0 records out > That's what I get. Oh - ok. I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the complete copy went thru dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written. > > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > > compares identical to the input file. > > Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed > sleep. Sleep I can understand :) I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area will fix the problem. Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was a change that came in when labels were implemented. Before labels the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble all over the disk and the system would still know about the partitioning. When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;) > I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've > written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC > software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go crazy first. Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct documentation wasn't a given. Then there are Chris Torek's comments in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc. > Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get > 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous > other goodies' I like. Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar. I had real problems with a DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600. Also, if you want to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is too high. With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not loose a single character. > what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an > UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, Slowaris? "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x on the same hardware. You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the system responsiveness. > I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x > that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time. Still, it was a much nicer system. > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Might I suggest "pig"? <grin!> I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go into the system. Csh has filename completion that works fairly well, only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing. But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as command history and command editing: First there's the honest to Bourne shell: text data bss dec hex 16576 2356 416 19348 4b94 /bin/sh Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer (to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much easier than in sh): 55744 7104 3682 66530 103e2 total text: 69120 overlays: 7360,6016 Overlaid! Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid none the less. And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of tcsh for 2.11): 48960 14844 11986 75790 1280e total text: 140864 overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064 Zounds! No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where they would fit. More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me. Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory. If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger) you get logged out. Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at the login prompt shortly there after ;) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37372 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA37368 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACD615573; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id OAA06564; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <20000609145938.A6135(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>; from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. > > Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than > NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the > kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to > build. Well, of course it does. But it's also well worth keeping in mind that while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast. A lot of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler; as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot between 4.3 and NetBSD. Runtime memory use is a somewhat different matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well. Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37445 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD

by Jason T. Miller

> I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, > the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting > preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I > remember. Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine, have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned (20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read (or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5" 'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those. Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave. > write: Read-only file system > 2+0 records in > 2+0 records out That's what I get. > That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but > only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't > decrement the output count on a write error. I noticed that, too. > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > compares identical to the input file. Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed sleep. > The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved > 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can > see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? > One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find > "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices > which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the > latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous other goodies' I like. As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the FreeBSD community At Large. -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29341 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 08:41:25 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29337 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA75007; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-2.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA99748; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006082241.RAA99748(a)shell-2.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: pdub(a)accesscom.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Paul West writes, > BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed > for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman > (BBN). Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had forgotten about that one. There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the PDP-1. Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR system at Stanford. I can't give proper citations because I'm currently 2000 miles from my book collection. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29456 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 9 08:58:44 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29452 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA05733; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000 3:40:15 pm" To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Jason T. Miller: > The only thing I want is > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > FreeBSD community At Large. Yep, it will go into Tools/ Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29574 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 09:21:44 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29569 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA81631; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA57997; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006082321.SAA57997(a)shell-1.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: lars(a)nocrew.org Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Lars Brinkhoff writes, > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature. And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29906 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:27:13 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29902 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA28066; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:25:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <394039E1.ED6AB226(a)accesscom.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:13 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29925 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:31:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:29:55 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29916 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:30:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA28267; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:28:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <39403A83.CDDC2592(a)accesscom.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:29:55 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors (corrected URL) References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version. Paul --- lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA32362 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu> Fri Jun 9 18:55:11 2000 Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA32358 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)indiana.edu) Received: from as45.onet.net (as45.onet.net [207.40.154.45]) by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11456 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 04:05:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s. So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's about 3K, tarred and gzipped. Jason T. Miller Self-styled Jack of England "..." -Anonymous Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33589 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:19:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Fri Jun 9 23:14:11 2000 Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA33585 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:18:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2 [206.229.84.2]) by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17942; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the Bourne shell. Hence, a project. > > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > > FreeBSD community At Large. > > Yep, it will go into Tools/ Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well. The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C (hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)). Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s; Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk; haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:57:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...] It does. > [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...] Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: RQDX3 software interleave

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However, if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8" media will work just fine. RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27345 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jun 9 01:36:34 2000 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27341 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1548310EA; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id LAA27539; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <0006072246.AA16781(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > This is pure luxury.=20 > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27554 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:57:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > This is pure luxury.=20 And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag! -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23628 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Thu Jun 8 08:50:45 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23624 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04229; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA82201; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that > Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as > rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal > article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which describes an early version of the system (where command arguments were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962. The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_, which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965, by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages. The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition was published. You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar, for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command. > Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its > current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and > only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I > can learn more? You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run the software it describes. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 09:36:42 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23733 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA06080; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:35:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423(a)accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" wrote: > does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? On CTSS: F. J. Corbato et al. "An Experimental Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344. P. A. Crisman The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed. MIT Press, 1965. On the Berkeley Timesharing System: W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction" Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196. B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774. This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of: C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell Computer Structures: Readings and Examples Mc-Graw Hill, 1971 and this *entire* book is online at "http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_…" (the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your browser). Happy reading :) Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24483 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 12:27:45 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24479 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA17681; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:26:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Eric Fischer wrote: > > I've read somewhere that > the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing > system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located > on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been > written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run > the software it describes. The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system: J.B. Dennis, "A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research" Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529. BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman (BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system: J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider "A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer" AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57. Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame. Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25136 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jun 8 14:45:32 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25132 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25310; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006080445.VAA25310(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of > the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur. > I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken > (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got Sigh. Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the ensuing compare error. I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3. I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I remember. Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from the MSCP driver with sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9 The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a "ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the 'a' partition. Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc) was dd'd: dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a and almost immediately dd reported: write: Read-only file system 2+0 records in 2+0 records out That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't decrement the output count on a write error. At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering about that ;) After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy compares identical to the input file. The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is *always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is ra9 (second drive on the second controller). > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu Jun 8 15:41:44 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25263 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12zv4a-0003Tr-00; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000" Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> writes: > I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, > but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? How about ITS, did it influence Unix? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25534 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jun 8 17:13:02 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25530 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15445; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: <v04210100b564661bc3fe(a)[10.10.50.26]> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000608090825.9260D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Speaking of PITA > >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in > >single density and data in DD? > > Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that > would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to > do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine > or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives only. Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:04:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? OK, I'll add one. > Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web > page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ??? Yes. > The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a > separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself > uncompressed)." Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that components/compress.tar is the right tarball... > But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory > does not contain it. It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less. > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. > [...] > Is there some documentation available about this? I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project. But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-) -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16405 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> Wed Jun 7 03:36:05 2000 Received: from mmail.bia-bg.com (qmailr(a)mmail.bia-bg.com [212.116.129.29]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA16400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pzh(a)bia-bg.com) Received: (qmail 16852 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2000 17:36:05 -0000 Received: from mmail.bia-bg.com (pzh(a)212.116.129.29) by mmail.bia-bg.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2000 17:36:05 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:36:05 +0300 (EET DST) From: Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000606203205.16815A-100000(a)mmail.bia-bg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all > traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been > built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is > CSRG in every other way. > people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out of the boundaries of the asylum... > -- > Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory > Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force > International Engineering and Science Task Force > 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 > DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA > > Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) > E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) > > P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16600 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Wed Jun 7 05:06:40 2000 Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16596 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from localhost (jasomill@localhost) by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05700 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200005261407.AAA44464(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is 409,600 bytes): $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ diff testrx50.img test Binary files testrx50.img and test differ WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around, I recall the following Additional Facts: - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. - Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall 6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b) RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level, but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically. I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly under RSX-11. Also: - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports itself as read-only, even for root. - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this little slice 'o heaven? And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs for the archive? JasoMill

24 years, 11 months

3
5
0 0

Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? > David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, > archive area, mail list as required. What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this? IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes..... Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23361 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Thu Jun 8 07:58:58 2000 Received: from hackaholic.org (IDENT:qmailr@d130.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.130.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23356 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org) Received: (qmail 395 invoked by uid 501); 7 Jun 2000 21:58:58 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: unix precursors Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000 Message-ID: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to unix? Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I can learn more? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23424 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Thu Jun 8 08:14:46 2000 Received: from racine.cybercable.fr (racine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23420 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from root(a)gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 3677127 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: from r226m12.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.226.12]) (envelope-sender <root(a)gits.dyndns.org>) by racine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04762; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) From: Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Posted-Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006072214.AAA04762(a)gits.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am" To: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST) CC: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: clefevre(a)citeweb.net Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<<r#uCVjK"~Ke!(a)0vxS/.,wki/c|uVnNV!BA-_gY2sfoGc3 f{#/$PT>97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, > This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > > > and won't fit on an RD53. > I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... > And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very > hany. ;-) > > > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. > Hmm. > > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z > stand.Z: data > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format > > The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive > mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar. > > Go to > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The > version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre@citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23490 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: RQDX3 software interleave

by Jason T. Miller

> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal > with it, ... I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon, though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest _that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and leave it at that. > What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write > and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system. And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8" diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in single density and data in DD? Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing working soon. -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu Jun 8 06:54:01 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA23069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v04210100b564661bc3fe(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Speaking of PITA >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in >single density and data in DD? Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23245 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:38:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: RT confusedness....

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and > ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. > > ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}... It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter? ...... > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP > from > > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt > > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good. I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc., to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the urls don't break. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17435 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: VAX group in TUHS?

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the > archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Yes. > Michael, do you want to continue to do this? Yes. > Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for > someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work? No, I do not and will not separate these. Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19425 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jun 7 16:09:07 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19421 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24583; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:09 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote: [...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...] > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? Well... No... But... You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first 1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K and see if that is the same. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21593 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD

by Wilko Bulte

On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs > for the archive? I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. -- Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org http://www.nlfug.nl Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16881 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:38:29 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA16877 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000606153829.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? Yeah, sure. > I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / <dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk >in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the >old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple >enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of >UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my >precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is >409,600 bytes): > > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at. Is this on FreeBSD? >Also: > - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although >no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is >from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this >due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports >itself as read-only, even for root. This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV? Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise live. > - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific >circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical >interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an >interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't >sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/ - assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and example code. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there. For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources: ; ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code (really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!): ; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave ; ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division .BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later 50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)? BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit ;(10.*200) 60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0 MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew) 70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10 BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0 MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field >service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to >understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on >a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found on PC-clones. Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets you could get from TEAC's faxback service. The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP from ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16978 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:59:51 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA16974 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000606155951.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs >> for the archive? >I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc... Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list, Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link on Mentec's page at http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next week or so. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17027 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Wed Jun 7 06:12:14 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17023 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:12:22 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v0421010eb563058aacb7(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / >dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk >in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies from system to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software interleave (otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II), but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I have a memo here somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML translation of it... Ah yes, here it is: DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only RQDX controller is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I: - 10 sectors per track - 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew - Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79] - Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10: |c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't. Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew on the RQDX3. I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50 or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave. > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK. > In my late-night screwings-around, >I recall the following Additional Facts: > - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - >available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in >re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest >that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) >usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of a sector, but don't hold me to that. >I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ >high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly >under RSX-11. That's good. You should not be using high-density disks. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this >little slice 'o heaven? What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s). Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want documentation for that little slice o' heaven? -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17070 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:22:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20 > stand.Z: data > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t= > mp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format See http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html > An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is CSRG in every other way. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA15719 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:19:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: profesional 350 & 380

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of > the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy > of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more > flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has > any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about > it. > I thought this one was up on uu.se site. I got my copy from there years ago. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA15060 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:50:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has > 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J > clone. 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, and won't fit on an RD53. The true 4.3BSD, however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Go to http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ to learn about the project and subscribe to its mailing list, then ask any further questions there. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA11891 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:09:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Tue Jun 6 11:12:19 2000 Received: from mail.rapidsite.net ([209.238.3.57]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA11887 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:08:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from emu(a)ecubics.com) Received: from 209.238.157.134 (209.238.157.134) by mail08.gte-hosting.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 05418584 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200006052246.AAA20067(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Subject: profesional 350 & 380 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:12:19 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Any chance to get a unix running on them ? cheers & thanks, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12552 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:52:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jun 6 13:50:14 2000 Received: from smtp10.nwnexus.com (smtp10.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.53]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12548 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:52:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from djenner(a)halcyon.com) Received: from halcyon.com (jenner.net [206.63.251.66]) by smtp10.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28397; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <393C74F6.A19267C0(a)halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:50:14 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Organization: Northwest Nexus Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: profesional 350 & 380 References: <200006052246.AAA20067(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk There are at least two *NIXes that run on the Pro. There are apparently patches for 2.9BSD available that allow that version to run on the Pro. I don't have any experience with that. There are two versions of Venix that run on the Pro. 1) Venix/Pro came directly from Venturecom. It exists in Version 1 and Version 2. 2) Pro/Venix came from DEC, but was a slight rework of Venix originally from Venturecom. I.e., DEC worked over Venix/Pro and issued a version itself called Pro/Venix. Venix/Pro versions 1 and 2 are available from the archives at ftp.update.uu.se. This means, ostensibly, that Venix/Pro is in the "public domain". Pro/Venix could also be in the public domain, subject to the Ancient Unix License, since it originates from Version 7 and System III from AT&T. Bob Supnick, who was at DEC, once stated he saw no reason why it couldn't be a part of the PUPS archive under the AU License. I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about it. Thanks, Dave emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Hi all, > > Any chance to get a unix running on them ? > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12967 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:04:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Tue Jun 6 16:01:20 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12963 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:03:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02730; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:21 +0200 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: profesional 350 & 380 In-Reply-To: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000606080102.2608A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > > Any chance to get a unix running on them ? There is Venix. I even think it's free now... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13672 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:40:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

Hi. Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J clone. I created a boot tape using a netbooted NetBSD 1.4.2 on this machine. I dd-ed "stand", "miniroot" and "rootdump" onto a tape with the blocksizes listed in the file "Rick_Copeland_Note". I also used "maketape" from the 2.11BSD distribution. >>> b mua0 2..1..0.. ?06 HLT INST PC = 00074C1E >>> Every time the same. :-( Do I make a mistake? Is my hardware not supported? Is there a other way to get 4.3BSD-Reno instaled? (Puting a disklabel, ffs and data with NetBSD onto the disk, but how to boot?) ??? -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11618 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:17:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

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Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old disagreements! Thanks, Warren A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive ============================================================== Policy ------ The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform. The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below. Mechanism --------- The pups@minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up. As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more people from each group will be the list maintainer. If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project. The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are. If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things. However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence. In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts. Volunteers & Mirrors -------------------- Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative. In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive. For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps this can be called the VAX Unix Archive. I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that: + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how big each section is + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them Copyright & License Issues -------------------------- At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms to ensure access by license holders will be preserved. Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way until that time. A Personal Note --------------- I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff (including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing lists associated with them. It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings, just in case I get hit by a bus or something. Conclusion ---------- I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal for future direction of PUPS and TUHS. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA97124 for pups-liszt; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:00:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 3 17:57:30 2000 Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA97120 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:00:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12y8pg-0008iK-0V; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:59:01 +0100 Message-ID: <Q8wFPIAqpLO5Ew82(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:57:30 +0100 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Subject: Re: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS References: <200006030158.LAA08504(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <200006030158.LAA08504(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.00 U <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xwlBrCeVCW> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <200006030158.LAA08504(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> writes >Hi all, > Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of >things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short >proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody >what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old >disagreements! > >Thanks, > Warren > Sounds basically ok to me Robin > > A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive > ============================================================== > >Policy >------ > >The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group >specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform. > >The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support >efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer >considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below. > >Mechanism >--------- > >The pups@minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing >list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the >Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au >If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up. > >As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up >for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more >people from each group will be the list maintainer. > >If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these >groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project. > >The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level >will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels >in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories >for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the >current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like >Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are. > >If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive >will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space >for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things. >However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence. >In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts. > > >Volunteers & Mirrors >-------------------- > >Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not >wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative. >In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive. >For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps >this can be called the VAX Unix Archive. > >I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that: > > + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry > + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how > big each section is > + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them > > >Copyright & License Issues >-------------------------- > >At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or >copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms >to ensure access by license holders will be preserved. > >Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that >is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not >be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In >that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be >released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way >until that time. > >A Personal Note >--------------- > >I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff >(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set >up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone >who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing >lists associated with them. > >It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings, >just in case I get hit by a bus or something. > >Conclusion >---------- > >I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that >I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal >for future direction of PUPS and TUHS. ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome

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What to look for in a PDP machine?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack, with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards, 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases. The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb). Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks. It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as DEC boards inside. Bob

24 years, 11 months

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Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > If you want a modern Unix OS [...] If he did, why would he want a VAX? Someone who detests "modern" pee sea hardware and prefers the vastly superior classical DEC stuff (like I do) would surely feel the same way about software (again like I do). Why should one treat hardware and software differently in this respect? Why mix-and-match the wonderful classical hardware with crappy bloated "modern" software? -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA48765 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 08:22:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sat May 27 08:21:49 2000 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA48761 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 27 May 2000 08:22:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bdc(a)world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com (bdc(a)world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20256 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (bdc@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28977 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:21:49 -0700 From: Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Dead MicroVAX II :( In-Reply-To: <0005262051.AA18987(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0005261515050.22157-100000(a)world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 26 May 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > If you want a modern Unix OS [...] > > If he did, why would he want a VAX? Someone who detests "modern" pee > sea hardware and prefers the vastly superior classical DEC stuff (like > I do) would surely feel the same way about software (again like I do). > Why should one treat hardware and software differently in this > respect? Why mix-and-match the wonderful classical hardware with > crappy bloated "modern" software? This list is definitely geared towards people running classic OSes on classic systems. I actually really enjoy having lots of the bloated modern hardware running on my VAXen. So much contemporary software compiles and runs right out of the tarballs under NetBSD/vax. And honestly, a lot of it performs quite admirably on even my humblest of MicroVAX II's. I see nothing incompatible with loving modern OSes running well on ancient hardware. :-) -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- All math equations have a fistfight on at least one side. -- K. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA51832 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 May 2000 01:50:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

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Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote: > The port-vax(a)netbsd.org list is full of very VAX clueful people. So is quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA48519 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 06:52:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

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Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

In article by Mike W.: > I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to > hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS, > but no to get get it on the machine, Model: one of two: VS12W-B2 or > V512W-B2. It is an old sticker, could be a 5 or an S. A tape drive is > installed, but no tape disk came with it. Is there another OS it can > run? Yes, it will run UNIX, the timesharing system by Ritchie and Thompson, Berkeley VAX version thereof, the current version of which is 4.3BSD-Quasijarus maintained by me, the WWW page for which is: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/ Running UNIX requires a UNIX source license (True UNIX never had, doesn't have, and never will have a concept of "binary only"), but these days SCO gives them out for FREE! You have a tape drive, so you will have no problem with installation. I have supply you with the boot tape, but you'll have to reimburse me for the tape and shipping. > How do I hook up the Console to work on it. For that matter, what does > the console look like? You need a standard RS-232 terminal. The console port connector on the MicroVAX is of a rather odd standard, though. A DEC BCC05 or BCC08 cable will connect it to a standard RS-232 DB25M terminal. If you want or have to make your own cable, I've got the pinout for the MicroVAX console port connector somewhere. > [...] nothing on 'where and > how the cables go on the back (bulkhead). The I/O distribution panel on the back provides external connections for all Q-bus modules you have. You'll have to tell us what Q-bus modules you have so that we can tell you what external connections they need. You obviously have the CPU, which has one external connection: the console port which I just told you about. > I need to know how, why and > when to turn the knobs on the back. On the CPU module bulkhead there are two knobs and one switch. One knob selects the console port baud rate. I think this one is obvious. You can use any of the baud rates printed around the knob, but 9600 baud is standard. The other knob selects between normal operation (the arrow icon), console language selection (the talking face icon), and console port loopback test (the T in the circle icon). I always leave it on the arrow icon. Finally, the switch selects between maintenance mode (halt enabled, stay in the console on power-up) and production mode (halt disabled, boot the OS on power-up). These correspond to the dot- inside-the-circle and dot-outside-the-circle icons, respectively. For now leave the dot inside the circle. For more info subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and ask there. Send subscription requests to: quasijarus-request(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA48495 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 06:46:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

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Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

On 25 May, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 08:33:51AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: >> In article by Mike W.: >> > I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to >> > hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS, > > The port-vax(a)netbsd.org list is full of very VAX clueful people. Yes. port-vax is the right audience. (I am part of it. ;-) ) There is an excellent site with information about VAX hardware. http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/index.html mirror at http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/hw/index.html There you can find a link to the KA630/MicroVAX II page http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/dr/ka630.html This will answer most of your questions. If you want a modern Unix OS look at www.netbsd.org. Or look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ (Hi Michael :-) ) -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA43336 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:19:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Fri May 26 19:22:21 2000 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA43332 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:19:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from joerg(a)begemot.org) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA04812; Fri, 26 May 2000 21:22:21 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:22:21 +1200 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Cc: joerg(a)begemot.org Subject: Begemot emulator and Harti Message-ID: <20000526212221.A4801(a)begemot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Just as a side note: if you think Harti's Emulator is a useful piece of software: sent him flowers. He's celebrating wedding this morning in Berlin, marrying a friendly young lady from Sibiria, Russia, her name is Larissa. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44458 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:07:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Sat May 27 00:04:37 2000 Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA44454 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:07:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from localhost (jasomill@localhost) by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA31910; Fri, 26 May 2000 09:04:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:04:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Hello and thanks! In-Reply-To: <200005260320.UAA27315(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10005260850030.31892-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Well, I keep calling the hardware support folks, and it keeps ringing busy. Of course, since I don't have call waiting or voice mail, that is to be expected :) I've actually thought about trying to acquire an MSCP<->SCSI card and using one of the SCSI drives I have lying around, but the 19" rackmount stuff is too cool (unfortunately, my spares cabinet is full of dirty laundry and ruined CD-R media at the moment), though I suppose an RA92 would suffice (anybody got one? :) though my budget is henceforth nonexistant -- $300 wouldn't break the bank, because they wouldn't give it to me. Don't know about the RQDX3, either, but more likely the KDA50 (which drives my RA81 -- the RQDX3 is for RXen, no more). The '81 was up all last night, so I don't have error numbers yet; I'll try to repeat the RX50 problem sometime this weekend. The only FS, I have, is yours, though I've started reading through it. Though the SCSI spec is thousands of pages long, it's pretty easy to program; I just finished some raw-tape-read routines for Hewlett-Packard CS/80 tape drives, that was even simpler. In both cases, however, I do have documentation (exhaustive documentation in re: SCSI -- again, work related). I take it from your reply that such docs aren't to be had for MSCP? At any price? Jason T. Miller jasomill(a)shaffstall.com On Thu, 25 May 2000, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > > > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > After about a week of work (mainly due to a dying RA81 ... see below), I > > have successfully installed 2.11BSD on my 11/83. First and foremost, > > thanks to a) Steven M. Shultz for so carefully maintaining and updating > > (!) CSRG's PDP-11 code to work with hardware such as my MSCP drives and > > TMSCP TK50 and b) everyone involved in prodding SCO to release free > > You're welcome! I can't take all of the credit (or blame depending > how you look at it) for the MSCP driver - that came about in 2.10 > just before I became heavily involved. Changes/rewrites/whatever > are my fault though ;) The TMSCP driver for 2BSD is my doing (based > on a *heavily* mauled version of the 4.3BSD one with some Ultrix > influences). > > > The only problems I've been having seem to be coming from disk controllers > > without media. More specifically, I get a hard error, followed by an > > endless loop of error indications if I try to access one of my RX50s (on > > an RQDX3 controller), and the only recourse is a reset. Okay, so the > > Hmmm, that's a new one to me. I used to have RX50s but they were > so d$&$*&^!d flakey that I put a standard "pc" 5.25" floppy on > instead (TEAC something or other). I didn't do the hardware stuff, > Terry Kennedy did that. Details on jumper setting to use a 5.25" > floppy in place of RX50s are floating around somewhere on the net > but I don't have the reference handy. > > Can't say I've had a problem with the floppy drive with no media. > It spins and eventually spits out an error but nothing bad happens > to the system. > > Hmmmm, what rev level of 2.11BSD do you have installed? The latest > from the PUPS archive (or at least fairly recent)? > > > solution here is simple: don't do it. The bigger problem comes with my > > flake-job of an RA81, which, FWIW, is the only fixed disk storage I have. > > It has a strange habit: the "A" light goes off and the controller can no > > Been there, seen that - on 11/44s with UDA50 controllers. When that > happened I picked up the phone and got the hardware support folks to > get me a new RA81 ;) After a while they got tired of maintaining > old hardware and when the RA81 died the last time they just turned off > the system and later sold it for scrap (instead of spending $300 for > a RA92 drive). Boo hiss. > > RA81s have been the worst drive I've seen for failures - it should > be fairly cheap to get a RA92 (8" desktop enclosure if I recall > right) to replace the RA81. Does the RQDX3 support the larger > drives though I wonder? > > > the same loop-of-errors syndrome as an empty RX50. Anyone have any > > pointers or sage advice? I figured I may try to modify the MSCP driver to > > re-init the controller on a hard error, and try again. But the MSCP code > > is fairly complicated, and I know nothing of the protocol. Anyone have any > > You're not just whistling Dixie there - it's the most complex > convoluted protocol I've seen for handling disks (and tapes). Well, > SCSI these days might be just as complex - but there's a difference: > I can get lots better specs and documentation for SCSI than I can for > MSCP. If you've access to other systems (RSX, IAS, etc) sources you > can RTFS (Read The Fine Source) and try to puzzle out how MSCP works > what the errors are and what to do about them but that's a far > cry from a complete, detailed, tabular, whatever document on how to > write a MSCP driver. > > > MSCP documentation which I could beg, borrow, or steal? I'd give the > > specific error codes, but I haven't written any down yet and I'm at work. > > I know I did do some work (mostly in the TMSCP part though) to improve > error handling and not leave drives stranded and the like. If you > can jot down the error codes I can take a look at the driver and > perhaps see what can be done to recover more gracefully. > > Cheers! > > Steven Schultz > sms(a)moe.2bsd.com > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44573 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:41:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Sat May 27 00:40:23 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA44569 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:41:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC1E1061 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:40:23 +0200 (DFT) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12383; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:40:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:40:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200005261440.QAA12383(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Building a 2.11BSD tape for Supnik's emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hello Seth, I never worked with a real PDP-11. I tried to build a V7 Boot tape for the Supnick and still did not succeed, but I got the following impressions: * V7 Doc says, You can't use the bootstrap from the DEC bulk ROM, but need to key in a custom bootstrap. Have a look into the V7 Manual Volume 2B (Essay about Installing UNIX). * It seems, a tape also needs to contain labels for the files (512 Byte Records), kind of directory. Regards -- Markus Original Message: --------------------------------- Hello folks, I'm trying to build a 2.11BSD boot tape for Bob Supnik's emulator. I downloaded the tape files from Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD, and put them together with the following commands (on Linux): cat mtboot mtboot boot | dd of=file0 obs=512 dd if=disklabel of=file1 obs=1024 dd if=mkfs of=file2 obs=1024 dd if=restor of=file3 obs=1024 dd if=icheck of=file4 obs=1024 dd if=root.dump of=file5 obs=10240 dd if=file6.tar of=file6 obs=10240 dd if=file7.tar of=file7 obs=10240 dd if=file8.tar of=file8 obs=10240 cat file? > boot.tape [I've verified the shell expands this expression to the correct file order] But when I run the simulator and try to boot from the tape (with or without the -o optiont to 'boot'), it fails, like so: % pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 18b sim> set cpu 2048K sim> att tm0 boot.tape sim> boot tm0 HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT) sim> boot -o tm0 HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT) sim> It's like the bootstrap code isn't working. Or possibly I've completely misunderstood the proper way to build a tape image. Is there a better way to go about it? - -Seth Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA45296 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 02:31:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat May 27 02:26:28 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA45292 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 27 May 2000 02:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA08996 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 26 May 2000 09:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:26:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005261626.JAA08996(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Building a 2.11BSD tape for Supnik's emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > I never worked with a real PDP-11. I tried to build a V7 Boot tape for > the Supnick and still did not succeed, but I got the following impressions: > > * It seems, a tape also needs to contain labels for the files > (512 Byte Records), kind of directory. Not exactly. The boot tape consists of files with different block sizes but has no "labels". > Original Message: > --------------------------------- > I'm trying to build a 2.11BSD boot tape for Bob Supnik's emulator. I > downloaded the tape files from Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD, and put them > together with the following commands (on Linux): > > cat mtboot mtboot boot | dd of=file0 obs=512 > dd if=disklabel of=file1 obs=1024 > dd if=mkfs of=file2 obs=1024 > dd if=restor of=file3 obs=1024 > dd if=icheck of=file4 obs=1024 > dd if=root.dump of=file5 obs=10240 > dd if=file6.tar of=file6 obs=10240 > dd if=file7.tar of=file7 obs=10240 > dd if=file8.tar of=file8 obs=10240 > cat file? > boot.tape [I've verified the shell expands this > expression to the correct file order] So close yet so far. You do not need to "reblock" the files - they already have the correct sizes. What you do need to do is run a program to add the record length information for the emulator. The emulator needs to have "virtual" file and record mark information added. If you look in the "usr/src/sys/pdpstand" directory you will find a source file "makesimtape.c". This is a slightly modified version of the 'maketape' program which 2.11 uses to create its own boot tapes. The modifications consist of changes to add the virtual tape marks for Bob's emulator. I will include a copy of makesimtape.c below in case anyone has trouble finding it in the source tree. makesimtape should compile on almost anything (I've used it on 2.11BSD, BSD/OS, and I think FreeBSD). Compile that program. Then create a small file (maketape.data) containing: mtboot 1 mtboot 1 boot 1 * 1 disklabel 2 * 1 mkfs 2 * 1 restor 2 * 1 icheck 2 * 1 root.dump 20 * 1 file6.tar 20 * 1 file7.tar 20 * 1 file8.tar 20 *1 Then "makesimtape -i maketape.data -o your_tape_file" will create the virtual tape file in 'your_tape_file'. Actually to make sure things work (and the tape is bootable and can run the standalone programs) all you need are the files up thru root.dump - that is enough to load the root filesystem. With a real tape drive you use the "maketape" program that comes with 2.11 of course since it wants to issue ioctl calls to place real tape marks, etc on a tape. > It's like the bootstrap code isn't working. Or possibly I've completely > misunderstood the proper way to build a tape image. Is there a better > way to go about it? Hopefully the method described above will be closer to what's needed. it has been quite a while since I've actually created a simulated tape so I might have left out a step or something. Good Luck! Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com =====================makesimtape.c========================= /* * @(#)makesimtape.c 2.1 (2.11BSD) 1998/12/31 * Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for * use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape * driver. * * NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out * the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian * machine nor a big-endian one. */ #include <stdio.h> #include <errno.h> #include <fcntl.h> #include <stdlib.h> #include <sys/types.h> #include <sys/stat.h> #include <sys/uio.h> #define MAXB 30 char buf[MAXB * 512]; char name[50]; long recsz, flipped, trl(); int blksz; int mt, fd, cnt; struct iovec iovec[3]; struct iovec tmark[2]; void usage(); main(argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { int i, j = 0, k = 0; long zero = 0; register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL; FILE *mf; struct stat st; while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF) { switch (i) { case 'o': outfile = optarg; break; case 'i': infile = optarg; break; default: usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ } } if (!outfile || !infile) usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ /* * Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or * 2) Exists but is a regular file. */ if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode))) errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file"); /* NOTREACHED */ mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600); if (mt < 0) err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile); /* NOTREACHED */ mf = fopen(infile, "r"); if (!mf) err(1, "Can not open %s", infile); /* NOTREACHED*/ tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long); tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero; while (1) { if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF) exit(0); if (i != 2) { fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i); exit(1); } if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB) { fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz); exit(1); } recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */ iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz); #ifdef pdp11 iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped; #else iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz; #endif iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz; iovec[1].iov_base = buf; iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len; iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base; if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0) { if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0) warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed"); k++; continue; } fd = open(name, 0); if (fd < 0) err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name); /* NOTREACHED */ printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k); /* * we pad the last record with nulls * (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash). * this allows you to access text files on the * tape without garbage at the end of the file. * (note that there is no record length associated * with tape files) */ while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz) { j++; #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #1"); /* NOTREACHED */ } if (cnt > 0) { j++; bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt); #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #2"); /* NOTREACHED */ } close(fd); } /* * Write two tape marks to simulate EOT */ writev(mt, tmark, 1); writev(mt, tmark, 1); } long trl(l) long l; { union { long l; short s[2]; } foo; register short x; foo.l = l; x = foo.s[0]; foo.s[0] = foo.s[1]; foo.s[1] = x; return(foo.l); } void usage() { fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n"); exit(1); }

24 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Hello and thanks!

by Jason T. Miller

After about a week of work (mainly due to a dying RA81 ... see below), I have successfully installed 2.11BSD on my 11/83. First and foremost, thanks to a) Steven M. Shultz for so carefully maintaining and updating (!) CSRG's PDP-11 code to work with hardware such as my MSCP drives and TMSCP TK50 and b) everyone involved in prodding SCO to release free Ancient UNIX source licenses. After dealing with a crippled binary-only Micro/RSX lack-of-a-kit, and as a FreeBSD user of five-odd years, I decided to bite the bullet and see what UNIX was/is like on a PDP. Thanks to the work of Steven and a cast of thousands, it's pretty damned impressive. The only problems I've been having seem to be coming from disk controllers without media. More specifically, I get a hard error, followed by an endless loop of error indications if I try to access one of my RX50s (on an RQDX3 controller), and the only recourse is a reset. Okay, so the solution here is simple: don't do it. The bigger problem comes with my flake-job of an RA81, which, FWIW, is the only fixed disk storage I have. It has a strange habit: the "A" light goes off and the controller can no longer access it. If I soft-restart the PDP (under either RSX or UNIX), the driver connects back to the drive without a glitch. And this gives me the same loop-of-errors syndrome as an empty RX50. Anyone have any pointers or sage advice? I figured I may try to modify the MSCP driver to re-init the controller on a hard error, and try again. But the MSCP code is fairly complicated, and I know nothing of the protocol. Anyone have any MSCP documentation which I could beg, borrow, or steal? I'd give the specific error codes, but I haven't written any down yet and I'm at work. Also, I am willing to provide a Good Home for any 19" rackmount MSCP drives in the midwest. Let me rephrase that: any one or two; I have a one bedroom apartment, and I'm saving a bit of floorspace for a (yet to materialize) VAX. Also Qbus thinnet or SCSI would be nice, whilst on cloud 780... TIA, jasomill Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA39885 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:30:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Fri May 26 08:28:09 2000 Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA39881 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:30:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from localhost (jasomill@localhost) by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21354 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 25 May 2000 17:28:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:28:09 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: to change without notice Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10005251726530.20729-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk After reading the _entire_ archive of PUPS messages, and realizing that, no, I'm not crazy and, no, I'm not the only one still interested in old hardware and software, I dug up two old 16-bit UNIX distributions and promptly archived 'em. Unfortunately, they're binary only and System-V based, so I can't just throw 'em in the archive. But when the game is up on the System-V codebase, I hope these CD-Rs are still around. They are: - SCO XENIX 286 2.2, complete OS with development system and text processing ([tn]roff, etc) - Microport System V/AT Development System (runtimes say both 1.3 and 2.3, development stuff says 1.3 - don't know, never booted this one) All the floppies read without errors, and I've actually booted and run the XENIX (used it for a tape conversion job a couple years ago) - works as long as you have a 5.25" floppy drive and reasonably old hardware - I ran it on a 386 but it doesn't grok VGA. Also, I have the ability to write TK50 tapes along with a wide range of other formats (my employer makes tape conversion equipment and software); no TK25 (unless the old IBM Tandberg VarBlock format is identical - don't know) or TK70, but just about anything else (need PDP UNIX on an HP 9144A cartridge tape; a) why? and b) I can help*!). I'd be happy to cut PDP UNIX tapes for media and shipping. Finally, anyone ever used the mtools package to read MS-DOS disks from an RX50 from a DEC Rainbow? I'm working on it (no Rainbow, but I've got a box that writes Rainbow disks) and I'd be glad to help anyone interested; I'm also working on R/W RX50 on FreeBSD. Jason T. Miller jasomill(a)shaffstall.com * but not much, unless someone is willing to replace the rubber roller thingy on my HP drive, but, as usual, I digress. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA39928 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:34:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri May 26 08:33:51 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA39924 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:34:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA07703; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:33:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005252233.IAA07703(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Dead MicroVAX II :( In-Reply-To: <392CE14B.597E81B8(a)willapabay.org> from "Mike W." at "May 25, 2000 1:16:11 am" To: tscowboy(a)willapabay.org (Mike W.) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:33:51 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Mike W.: > I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to > hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS, > but no to get get it on the machine, Model: one of two: VS12W-B2 or > V512W-B2. It is an old sticker, could be a 5 or an S. A tape drive is > installed, but no tape disk came with it. Is there another OS it can > run? I wish I knew what to do. I turn it on and it reads something like > 8, 7, 6, 5, 8, B, C, 3 and then after a VERY long pause, it reads E for > another long period, then 6 for another long wait and then E forever. > How do I hook up the Console to work on it. For that matter, what does > the console look like? How do I go to console mode? Is there some kind > of manual on it? I have about 8 or 9 monitors and the same amount of > keyboards and most of the cables. I would like to bring it back to life > and put it in a show room or something. I have no money, the whole thing > was given to me. The drives > were wiped clean (it was at the Hospital, they upgraded). I take it the > E on the readout tells me, "There is no OS installed". After a month or > so of searching the internet, I have found a few 'commands' and how to > wire one cable, a picture and QBUS routing, but nothing on 'where and > how the cables go on the back (bulkhead). I need to know how, why and > when to turn the knobs on the back. > Yes, I know nothing of this thing and would like to learn. I know the > MAC a little, MS-DOS in my sleep. Anyway..... > > Mike Williams > 4212 S. Pacific Way > Seaview, Wa. 98644-0068 > tscowboy(a)willapabay.org I'll cc this to the Pups mailing list. You should subscribe so that you can get any answers! Details at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/maillist.html Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA40418 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:13:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri May 26 10:12:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA40414 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:13:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA08415 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:12:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005260012.KAA08415(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Who uploaded these to the PUPS ARchive? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:12:40 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm just doing some house cleaning on the PUPS Archive. I've forgotten who uploaded these into the incoming directory? -rw-r----- 1 wkt pupsarc 53634 Feb 24 1999 29pro_inclsys.tar.gz -rw-r----- 1 wkt pupsarc 777081 Feb 24 1999 29pro_sys.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 pups pupsarc 5332873 Jan 17 01:48 old-ultrix-32.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 pups pupsarc 371111664 Mar 20 06:00 old-ultrix.tar.gz As well, can you supply a README saying what is in these files, too :-) My memory isn't what it used to me. Thanks! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41586 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:35:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri May 26 14:34:18 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA41582 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:35:03 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id OAA09658 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:34:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005260434.OAA09658(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: More PUPS Donations & Volunteers To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:34:18 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Since the free SCO license, we've had an enormous demand on our PUPS volunteers. If there is anybody in Japan who can burn CDs, could you contact me if you are prepared to burn a few copies of the PUPS CD. I've made a start on tidying up the archive & moving recently donated things to appropriate directories. Are there other systems out there which could be donated to the archive? I've just have a Z8000 SystemIII system being donated. I'm happy to take donations, but they may not be moved into the main archive because I don't want to have my butt sued off. Ages ago, George Colouris at QMC in the UK had a 9-track tape containing QED, the visual Unix editor which influenced the development of vi. Can anybody in the UK read 9-tracks. If so, I'll put you in contact with George. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41696 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:51:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Fri May 26 14:44:17 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA41692 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:51:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (nobody(a)relay.nuxi.com [169.237.7.38]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06137; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:51:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA42078; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:44:17 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: "Mike W." <tscowboy(a)willapabay.org> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Dead MicroVAX II :( Message-ID: <20000525214417.A58091(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <392CE14B.597E81B8(a)willapabay.org> <200005252233.IAA07703(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200005252233.IAA07703(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au on Fri, May 26, 2000 at 08:33:51AM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 08:33:51AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Mike W.: > > I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to > > hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS, The port-vax(a)netbsd.org list is full of very VAX clueful people. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA42383 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:00:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Fri May 26 15:59:56 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA42379 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:00:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12vDA4-00039I-00; Fri, 26 May 2000 07:59:56 +0200 To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 MMU docs? References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000525173018.7767F-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 26 May 2000 07:59:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist's message of "Thu, 25 May 2000 17:30:37 +0200 (MET DST)" Message-ID: <85em6pvokj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > On 25 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > > Is there any PDP-11 MMU documentation available? > Don't remember seeing any. What do you want to know? Everything necessary to emulate one in software. I have Supnik's simulator, but it would be easier if I had proper docs. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA42466 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:20:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri May 26 16:18:57 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA42459 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:20:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29942 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 25 May 2000 23:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:18:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005260618.XAA29942(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 MMU docs? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > On 25 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > > > Is there any PDP-11 MMU documentation available? > > Don't remember seeing any. What do you want to know? > > Everything necessary to emulate one in software. I have Supnik's > simulator, but it would be easier if I had proper docs. Do you also have Harti Brandt's P11 ("Begemot") emulator? That is a _work of art_! Has an emulated DEQNA so you can place the "PDP-11" on a LAN, the timeskew problem has been fixed (the emulated pdp-11 keeps good time), and it also has a TOY clock now. Check out http://www.begemot.org Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA43074 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:55:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Re: Installing an OS on my little friendly VAX-11.

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > I'd recommend you look into the Quasijarus project at > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > and join their mailing list by sending a request to Michael Sokolov: > msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG Thanks, Warren, for helping me out with awareness-raising! I have to disappoint Jeff a little bit, though, that 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support for BabyVAXen is still a while away, but trust me, we will get there some day! But my project pages and mailing list are definitely a tremendous resource. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA36284 for pups-liszt; Thu, 25 May 2000 18:45:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

2
1
0 0

Re: Installing an OS on my little friendly VAX-11.

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jeff Johnson <jeff+pups(a)websitefactory.net> wrote: > I've got a VAXstation 2000 with 12MB of RAM, and two RD54 drives, > one of which is developing bad sectors (the secondary). I've got the > eight bitplane graphics card and no terminal available. Two RD54s? At least one of them must be external then, as there's only room for one full-height device in the VS2K box itself. I'm going to assume that you have the standard DEC configuration with one RD54 internal and an expansion adapter (pizza box) at the bottom with the 2nd external RD54 connected to it. Hey, except for the lack of TK50Z, you've got pretty much the maximum configuration from DEC for VS2K: maximum memory, maximum number of disks of top-of-the-line type, expansion adapter, and top-of-the-line graphics card! On your expansion adapter, right next to the connector for the external RD54, you should see a 50-lead Amphenol (aka Centronics) SCSI connector. It is indeed real SCSI, but the boot ROM, VMS, and Ultrix only support one SCSI device on it, the TK50Z. > I also don't have a TK50 or any external storage, Note that if you can get hold of a TK50Z (a box just like your external RD54, but with a TK50 drive and a TK50-to-SCSI adapter inside), you can readily plug it into the connector I just described. I don't think a TK50Z would be that expensive. Here in Dallas, TX, USA I get bare TK50 drives for $75 apiece and TK50 drive + TQK50 controller (for Q-bus) pairs for $100 apiece, and I don't think a TK50Z would be much more expensive. > so it looks like I'll be netbooting. Sorry, can't help you with that, I and netbooting have never been able to successfully coexist in the same machine room at the same time. > The machine currently has OpenVMS 7.2 on it which I can re-license and get > running if it would help for an install. If you have VMS running on one disk, you can use it to install Ultrix on the other. Talk to me directly for the instructions. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA97968 for pups-liszt; Thu, 25 May 2000 13:46:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

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Installing an OS on my little friendly VAX-11.

by Jeff Johnson

Hey guys. I've got a VAXstation 2000 with 12MB of RAM, and two RD54 drives, one of which is developing bad sectors (the secondary). I've got the eight bitplane graphics card and no terminal available. I'd really love to get a copy of Ultrix 4.2 installed on this machine, but from what I can tell it isn't available. I also don't have a TK50 or any external storage, so it looks like I'll be netbooting. The machine currently has OpenVMS 7.2 on it which I can re-license and get running if it would help for an install. I've had almost no success with NetBSD either. The only kernel that would boot was a 1.3 snapshot release. All of the 1.4 kernels crap out immediately upon booting, and nobodys seems to be able to help me. Also, if anyone has a source for additional expansion for this machine, I'd be grateful. Thanks very much for your time. I really want to get this machine up and running again. -- Jeffrey H. Johnson - jeff(a)websitefactory.net - System Administration - TrN Barnet Worldwide Enterprises - The Website Factory - www.websitefactory.net

24 years, 12 months

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ACMS, Questions on Internet History. (fwd)

by Dave Horsfall

Perhaps some of the learned people on this list can help this chappie out? The ACMS is the Australian Computer Museum Society, and could in turn be a valuable resource for this list; note that he signs himself as a "PDP-11 Support Consultant"... Replies to him, please, unless deemed of interest to the list. -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:53:26 From: John G E R E M I N <megajohn(a)sneaker.net.au> To: ACS NSW List <acsnsw-l(a)onelist.com> Subject: ACMS, Questions on Internet History. Greetings All, (from a Netscape v3, Eudora and Win-3.11 system), The ACMS has been asked about the History Of The Internet In Australia. This assumes that the 'Internet' is defined as using IP protocols, and the World-Wide-Web that provided permanent (or semi-permanent) connections between major nodes and the end-users. We also know that DEC had world-wide DECNET for its corporate use. We know that U**X systems had FTP, TELNET etc available on systems using fixed line connections (eg within Unis, etc). We know about the ArpaNet origins (we hope) We know? that the first Internet users here were the CSIRO and Unis. But were they connected initially to the overseas Internet ? So some questions, designed to sort out some confusions. First hand experiences would be good as would pointers to documentation. Note - all these relate to Australia (but answers may include info relating to overseas contexts). a1 First use of Fido-Net or other BBS using Dial-up messaging ? a2 First use of E-MAIL via FidoNet or other BBS ? a3 First use of FreeWare/File Distribution via FidoNet or other BBS ? a4 First use of Message/Conference Areas/Groups on BBS ? b1 First use of permanent IP addresses ? b2 First use of E-MAIL via IP addresses ? b3 First use of File Transfers via Internet ? b4 First use of NewsGroups via Internet ? b5 First use of Graphical Displays via Internet ? b6 First use of 'http://www' type URL addressing via Internet ? b7 First use of two-way (interactive) audio via Internet ? b8 First use of two-way (intereactive) video via Internet ? c1 Any other major Internet milestones in the Australian environment ? Many thanks, John G. (PS you don't need to answer all questions!) John GEREMIN, megajohn(a)sneaker.net.au Ph. 02-9764 4855 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ PDP-11 Support Consultant, MEGATRONICS, Australia. http://www.posit.com.au/megatronics/ NEW Mob. => 0427 10 20 60 <= Hon. Treasurer, Australian COMPUTER MUSEUM Society Inc. http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/ Fax: 02-9764 4679 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA75969 for pups-liszt; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:57:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From John G E R E M I N <megajohn(a)sneaker.net.au> Sun May 21 12:53:26 2000 Received: from threedee.com (mail.threedee.com [209.83.65.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA75965 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:57:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jfoust(a)threedee.com) Received: from winnie.threedee.com (winnie [192.198.5.13]) by threedee.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA29050; Mon, 22 May 2000 08:56:39 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.20000522085035.01c28580@pc> X-Sender: jfoust@pc X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:54:53 -0500 To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> Subject: Re: ACMS, Questions on Internet History. (fwd) Cc: John G E R E M I N <megajohn(a)sneaker.net.au> In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0005221634220.26282-100000(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk At 04:39 PM 5/22/00 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: > a1 First use of Fido-Net or other BBS using Dial-up messaging ? > a2 First use of E-MAIL via FidoNet or other BBS ? > a3 First use of FreeWare/File Distribution via FidoNet or other BBS ? Tom Jennings, the creator of FidoNet, is still available at <tomj(a)wps.com> and there's a history at http://wps.com/FidoNet/source/Fido-FidoNet/fhist.html. Tom is now moderating the Dead Media Project at http://wps.com/dead-media/index.html. But by no means was FidoNet the first BBS. - John

25 years

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Ultrix V3.1 broken

by Warren Toomey

----- Forwarded message from Zane H. Healy ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> While investigating building a Ultrix V3.1 tape I discovered that the file on the archive is corrupt. Distributions/dec/Ultrix-3.1/ultrix-3.1-bootape.tar.gz File 34: The ULTRIX-11 /usr file system in dump/restor format Zane ----- End of forwarded message from Zane H. Healy ----- Wilko Bulte sent that in to the PUPS Archive. Wilko, do you still have the tape. Can you try to read it again?! Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA22439 for pups-liszt; Sun, 21 May 2000 18:51:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)chello.nl> Sun May 21 20:50:59 2000 Received: from relay02.chello.nl (relay02.chello.nl [212.83.68.146]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22432 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 21 May 2000 18:51:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkb(a)chello.nl) Received: from chello.nl ([213.46.78.184]) by relay02.chello.nl (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 2ee4e7c625482f2f2a1950a80f6c8d58) with ESMTP id <20000521085044.QFLE24740.relay02(a)chello.nl>; Sun, 21 May 2000 10:50:44 +0200 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by chello.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA37481; Sun, 21 May 2000 10:50:59 GMT (envelope-from wkb) Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 10:50:59 +0000 From: Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)chello.nl> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Ultrix V3.1 broken Message-ID: <20000521105059.A21186(a)freebie.wbnet> Reply-To: wc.bulte(a)chello.nl References: <200005210610.QAA72885(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200005210610.QAA72885(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au on Sun, May 21, 2000 at 04:10:21PM +1000 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE X-PGP: finger wilko(a)freebsd.org Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sun, May 21, 2000 at 04:10:21PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: Warren, When I untar the .tgz I get files named tapeblock[0-33] In tapeblock4 is an index of the original tape, which lists the various files on the tape. These are numbered *1* til *34* I think this is just an off by one thing, because there is no tapeblock34 at all. Please check if this is the case. I don't have any PDP operational so I cannot verify the contents of tapeblock33. But I'm pretty sure this is /usr W/ > ----- Forwarded message from Zane H. Healy ----- > > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> > > While investigating building a Ultrix V3.1 tape I discovered that the file > on the archive is corrupt. > > Distributions/dec/Ultrix-3.1/ultrix-3.1-bootape.tar.gz > > File 34: The ULTRIX-11 /usr file system in dump/restor format > > Zane > ----- End of forwarded message from Zane H. Healy ----- > > Wilko Bulte sent that in to the PUPS Archive. Wilko, do you still have the > tape. Can you try to read it again?! > > Cheers, > Warren ---end quoted text--- -- Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org

25 years

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test mail for new PUPS list

by Warren Toomey

The PUPS list, web site & Archive has migrated to a Celeron. Just some test mail to confirm that the mailing list still works. Please ignore. Warren

25 years

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Re: A Public Thank You

by Warren Toomey

In article by Frank Wortner: > I just signed up for my free(!) SCO Ancient Unix license. It's great fun > to be able to explore again the code I first saw and worked on as a > student all too many years ago. It seems only right to thank those who > gave me access to this resource. > Frank Wortner I'd like to add some thanks to Frank's list. Thanks to those people who forked out their US$100 for the paper SCO license. It's a shame you can't get a refund. At least you have a real, signed, license that you can wave at your friends :-) Our first contact at SCO, Dion Johnson, fought with bureacracy and the legal naysayers to get us the first SCO license. Thanks, Dion! We have a lot of PUPS Volunteers behind the scenes who have been burning CDs and other media in the past 2-3 years. With the free license, they're going to get much busier, but are still volunteers. Everybody who has received a CD should congratulate these people. Soren Jorvang in particular deserves thanks. Hint: if you have a CD burner, YOUR HELP IS URGENTLY REQUIRED. Email me! Finally, the bulk of the files in the archive were donated by a few people: Dennis Ritchie, Henry Spencer, Keith Bostic, Tim Shoppa, Steven Schultz and Kirk McKusick are the most notable. Thanks to all those who have donated old files and information to the archive! Some quick stats: 100+ people have obtained for PUPS Archive access in the last 24 hours. Web activity was 1.2G, compared to a usual 36M, in the last 24 hours. Haven't checked ftp yet. Not bad for a 486! I'm switching over to the Celeron today, so expect a few hours of downtime and a few glitches. Cheers, Warren

25 years

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PUPS Archive access now available

by Warren Toomey

All, Access to The PUPS Archive can now be obtained with no human intervention. Go to http://www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html, agree to the SCO license. On the next page, click on `apply for access to the PUPS Archive'. Fill in your full name and e-mail address, and you will be given immediate access to the archive. I'm arranging for at least one mirror of the PUPS Archive in the USA. More would be welcome :-) Let me know if you can help! At present, the PUPS Archive can be accessed by FTP, HTTP and rsync. No more paper licenses, no more 6 week wait, yayy!!! Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22778 for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:34:51 +1000 (EST) >From Frank Wortner <frank(a)panix.com> Wed May 17 00:34:32 2000 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22774 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:34:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from panix6.panix.com (panix6.panix.com [166.84.0.231]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D81331012 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix6.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) with ESMTP id KAA12675 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:34:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: panix6.panix.com: frank owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:34:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)panix.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: A Public Thank You In-Reply-To: <200005142045.GAA10926(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0005160929210.10013-100000(a)panix6.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I just signed up for my free(!) SCO Ancient Unix license. It's great fun to be able to explore again the code I first saw and worked on as a student all too many years ago. It seems only right to thank those who gave me access to this resource. Thank you, Warren, for your work in convincing SCO to make this possible. Also thanks for the archives, the mailing list, the idea, and everything else. Thank you, SCO, for seeing the historic value of the code and generously making it available to enthusiasts. SCO's attitude towards this legacy is extremely rare amoung corporations, and they deserve our gratitude. Thanks also to everyone who contributed material to the PUPS archive. In the face of such generousity I'm sorry I don't have (or think I don't have) any material left from the PDP-11 era to add to the collection. And now, back to wallowing in PDP-11 nostalgia. :-) Frank Wortner

25 years

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WWW page for PDP-11 support in GNU binutils

by lars brinkhoff

I created a page to reflect the progress of the PDP-11 support in GNU binutils: http://pdp11.nocrew.org/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13579 for pups-liszt; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:56:39 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon May 15 18:56:24 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13575 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:56:32 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id SAA31129; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:56:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005150856.SAA31129(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: WWW page for PDP-11 support in GNU binutils In-Reply-To: <85zopss1ai.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> from lars brinkhoff at "May 15, 2000 9:47: 1 am" To: lars(a)nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:56:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by lars brinkhoff: > I created a page to reflect the progress of the PDP-11 support in > GNU binutils: > http://pdp11.nocrew.org/ Thanks Lars. Now that Minix is freely available, some of the applications there could be easily ported over to the PDP-11. Ciao, Warren

25 years

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SCO site has Unix for download

by Efton Collins

Hey, You may have seen it already, but I haven't seen an announcement on the PUPS list - SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V available on their site for download. You can access them by going to www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html and accepting the license. Congratulations PUPS, this is a milestone. Efton

25 years

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Some changes forecast for the PUPS Archive & web site

by Warren Toomey

[ apologies to those who get this twice ] Hi all, I just thought I'd let you know that there will be some changes with the PUPS Archive and the web site coming along soon. As you know, SCO has dropped their Ancient UNIX license to $0.00. In a matter of days, they will provide a web form on their web site so that you can agree to the license. After you have done this, you will be able to obtain 5th-7th Edition UNIX, 32V, Mini UNIX and PDP-11 System III from their web site. I am hoping that you will also be able to click through to a CGI script on the PUPS web site, where you can put in your full name and e-mail address, and you will be granted access to the larger PUPS Archive. I need to collect name/e-mail addresses, so that later if you ask for a copy of the Archive on CD or other media, we can verify that you have agreed to the new SCO license. I am modifying the PUPS Archive so that it will be accessible via both FTP and HTTP. The access mechanism will also allow mirrors of the Archive to be set up. SO: if you have a good 24-hr/day network connection and about 1G of disk space available, I would be most grateful if you could set up a mirror of the PUPS Archive. The mechanism to request PUPS on CD has been streamlined, but it still depends on volunteers to help out with the copying. If you can volunteer to do this as well, we would be most grateful. We will be even more grateful once the free SCO license gets Slashdotted :-) One thing I definitely need to do is to tidy up and/or reorganise the PUPS web site at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS. I'll try to do this over the next 6-8 weeks. Any suggestions or comments are welcome! The PUPS Archive itself needs some attention. For example, some of the systems like PWB, 32V and System III are either incomplete or haven't been fuly extracted into a portable format like tar. I would welcome any offers to help curate & fix up the archive. When this _does_ get slashdotted, and it will, the first thing people will want to do is either view the old source, or bring up the old versions. Is there a volunteer who would like to bring the disk images in Boot_Images up to date, and provide better instructions so that a PDP-newbie can boot V5, V6, V7, 2.11BSD on the common emulators such as Ersatz, Supnik, Begemot etc. And finally, the machine running the PUPS Archive, minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, will be replaced in the next week or two. Currently, minnie is a 486DX100, and I have a Celeron 400 with FreeBSD 4.0 installed as her replacement. There will be some broken functionality after I switch over, knowing Murphy's Law. Please e-mail me with details if you spot something that isn't right. That's about it. There's a lot to do. I'd love some help :-) Cheers! Warren

25 years

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Also: PUPS mailing list digest

by Warren Toomey

Looks like we've got a spurt of email in the PUPS mailing list. For those unaccustomed to this, you might prefer to switch over to the digest version which comes out at most twice a week. To do this, send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with these lines in the email body: unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest Cheers, Warren

25 years

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Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). > > What cpu is in the DEUNA and DEQNA? I think those also have a T11. I thought DEUNA was 68k and DEQNA is definatly state machines and random logic no t11. DELQA is 68k. > > and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. > > In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. > > And I think DEC even supported the possibility of writing your own > microcode for this one. Yes there was a WCS that filled the FIS microm spot (and a full board under it). Allison

25 years

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PDP-11 Processor features/options (was HELP PDP-11 instruction)

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

I have updated my web page, fixing a few typos, and made more distinctions between various processors, along with a table of 'obscure instructions'. http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/table.html Does anyone out there know the internal implementation details of the J11 chip. I assume it's micro sequenced, but what is the micro word length? PS I have found the 'PDP-11 Family Differences Table' (in the PDP-11 Architecture Handbook and others) to be wrong in several places. Regards John Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA82835 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:56:31 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu May 11 15:56:02 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82831 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:56:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA06288; Thu, 11 May 2000 07:56:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:56:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <000510130612.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000511075207.6110D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B > > And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the > early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox > laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party > CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used > market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev > J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) Actually, the first HSCs (HSC-50 and HSC-70) have an F11. Hmmm, a bit unsure about the HSC-70 come to think of it. The HSC-50 is definitely F-11 anyway, and that's the oldest one. Boots of DECtape II. Slow as hell because of it. :-) > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). What cpu is in the DEUNA and DEQNA? I think those also have a T11. > The CPU chipset used in the LSI-11/02 and /03 is a Western Digital chipset, > and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. > In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. And I think DEC even supported the possibility of writing your own microcode for this one. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA82993 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 16:21:04 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu May 11 16:20:51 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA82989 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 16:20:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12pmL6-0000Jw-00; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:20:52 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Obscure opcodes From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 11 May 2000 08:20:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au's message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 09:23:18 +1000 (EST)" Message-ID: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Does anyone know that bit patterns these instructions use: commercial instruction set, FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FDIV, (and any other FIS instructions if any), LDUB, MED, XFC ? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84068 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:04:37 +1000 (EST) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu May 11 22:03:35 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA84064 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:04:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Thu, 11 May 2000 05:03:38 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v04210103b5404dc720f4(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> References: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:03:35 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone know that bit patterns these instructions use: > commercial instruction set, According to the PDP11/04/34a/44/60/70 processor handbook (1979-1980), addn 076050 addp 076070 addni 076150 addpi 076170 ashn 076056 ashp 076076 ashni 076156 ashpi 076176 cmpc 076044 cmpci 076144 cmpn 076052 cmpp 076072 cmpni 076152 cmppi 076172 cvtln 076057 cvtlp 076077 cvtlni 076157 cvtlpi 076177 cvtnl 076053 cvtpl 076073 cvtnli 076153 cvtpli 076173 cvtnp 076055 cvtpn 076054 cvtnpi 076155 cvtpni 076154 divp 076075 divpi 076175 locc 076040 locci 076140 l2dr 07602r l3dr 07606r matc 076045 matci 076145 movc 076030 movci 076130 movrc 076031 movrci 076131 movtc 076032 movtci 076132 mulp 076074 mulpi 076174 scanc 076042 scanci 076142 skpc 076041 skpci 076141 spanc 076043 spanci 076143 subn 076051 subp 076071 subni 076151 subpi 076171 > FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FDIV, (and any other FIS instructions if any), According to Microcomputer Handbook (1977-1978): fadd 07500r fsub 07501r fmul 07502r fdiv 07503r and those are the only instructions listed under FIS. > LDUB, MED, XFC >? Back to 11/04/34a/44/60/70: med 076600 ldub 170003 xfc 0767xy - x = "used for initial instruction group determination", - y = "further instruction determination" (this is a user-defined instruction via writable microcode in the 11/60). -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84207 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:38:09 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 22:37:50 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA84199 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:37:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Thu, 11 May 2000 8:37:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 8:37:50 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000511083750.20203768(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> LDUB, MED, XFC >>? >Back to 11/04/34a/44/60/70: > >med 076600 The MED instruction is used in RT-11 to determine if the machine is an 11/60. It's probably also used in the 11/60-specific XXDP diagnostics. I don't think that it's used in any of the -11 Unices. Note that MED is really a two-word-long instruction. >ldub 170003 My 11/60 Processor Handbook also lists MNS (170004), MNP (170005), and MAS (170006). These are "11/60 FP11-E Maintenance Instructions" and "This set together with the LDUB instruction should be used for diagnostic purposes only" according to the 11/60 book. Note that no version of DEC MACRO-11 recognizes MNS, MNP, MAS, or LDUB. The MED instruction is recognized in MACRO-11 only as MED6X. The "6X" jibes with the rumored existence of experimental variants on the 11/60 processor, one of which is the multi-processor 11/64. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84206 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:38:07 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu May 11 22:37:48 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA84198 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:37:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12psDu-0001Yf-00; Thu, 11 May 2000 14:37:50 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes References: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> <v04210103b5404dc720f4(a)[10.10.50.26]> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 11 May 2000 14:37:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: Roger Ivie's message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 06:03:35 -0600" Message-ID: <857ld1w9cz.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thank you all, now I have all the opcode information I need! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA84380 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 23:26:07 +1000 (EST)

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Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > >53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) > > Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. Not KDF-11B???? > And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the > early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox HSC was F11, J11 or T11??? I thought T11 or f11 in the early models. > laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party > CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used > market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev > J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) > >T11 = ? > > Never sold as a "PDP-11" system, though the chip does implement the > basic PDP-11 instruction set (and some of the add-ons.) It was sold > by DEC in the KXT11-CA single board computer, which had a T11, 32K RAM, > up to 32K of EPROM, 3 serial lines, some parallel I/O, and a Q-bus > interface. For more information see > You forget the falcon card KXT-11A, That with two MXT11 memory IO combo have you 32kw ram, 4 serial, boot and some parallel that would run rt-11. >From a functional view that would be like using a LSI-11/2 card and it runs the same stuff. > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). Also used in VT240/241 terminals. My collection have some marked DEC DC311/es (T-11 engineering samples). I's a nice chip with a straightforward interface. Anyone that knows 8085, nsc800 would like interfacing t-11. Instruction set is base LSI11. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA79855 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:16:31 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 04:16:15 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA79851 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:16:23 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:16:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:16:15 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000510141615.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. >Not KDF-11B???? The KDF11-B (why are people putting the hyphens in all the wrong places?) is the quad-height 11/23 with two SLU's and boot ROM. Tim.

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Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

> lars brinkhoff wrote :- > > I'm adding PDP-11 support to GNU binutils, and I need help on > classifying the instruction set. I forgot to mention a critical point. Any PDP-11 runing Unix (except very early versions and Miniunix), and certainly from Edition 6 onwards, MUST have EIS. Even the Unix bootstraps used EIS. So binaries built for Unix, will run on a 11/34/35/40/44/45/50/53/55/60/70/73/83/84/93/94 !! Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. I have a distant memory, that I have seen FPP instructions used for some integer arithmetic for speed. I cannot recall if it was in the kernel or C libraries. It was conditional, and may have been in the latter BSD versions, but I don't have the source code online. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA75986 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:48 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed May 10 11:50:31 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA75982 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA90764; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005100150.LAA90764(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <85og6g18xo.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> from lars brinkhoff at "May 9, 2000 9:25:55 am" To: lars(a)nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by lars brinkhoff: > So far, this is the classification I've come up with: > > BASIC: the basic instruction set. > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). > EIS45: 11/45 extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL. > EIS40: 11/40 extended instruction set: EIS45 + SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT. > FIS: FADD, FSUB, FMUL, and FDIV (opcodes 0x7a00..0x7bff). > FPU: LDF, STF, LDCFF', STCFF', CMPF, LDEXP, STEXP, LDCIF, STCFI, MULF, > MODF, ADDF, SUBF, and DIVF (opcodes 0xf000..0xffff). > > Would this be correct? > > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? I've got some details on FADD, FSUB, FMUL, and FDIV. I could fax you the relevant details from the processor handbook, and/or give you source code from my Apout simulator. FADD is instruction 07500x, ADDF is 1720xx. They are different. I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76328 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:00:15 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 12:58:25 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76324 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:00:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18914 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 19:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:58:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100258.TAA18914(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> > I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the > opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, > 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. The CIS was a quite expensive option that was only available (as I recall) on the 11/44 and the later KDJ-11 based systems (11/83 and up where it occupied another socket on the cpu board). The CIS instructions are: L2D L3D ADDP ADDN ADDNI ADDPI ASHN ASHP ASHNI ASHPI CMPC CMPCI CMPN CMPP CMPNI CMPPI CVTLN CVTLP CVTLNI CVTLPI CVTNL CVTPL CVTLNI CVTPLI CVTNP CVTPN CVTNPI CVTPNI DIVP DIVPI LOCC LOCCI MATC MATCI MOVC MOVCI MOVRC MOVRCI MOVTC MOVTCI MULP MULPI SCANC SCANCI SKPC SKPCI SPANC SPANCI SUBN SUBP SUBNI SUBPI Try the processor handbook that covers the 11/44+11/70 - I think that's where the CIS is described. At one time it looked like where I worked was going to get a CIS board for the 11/44 to help with the COBOL runtime we'd written/ported. It never came to be ;( But I did add the opcodes to the assembler and did some initial coding in preparation for getting the CIS instructions. You do a _lot_ of saving and restoring registers because the CIS instructions expect many of their operands to be in R2 thru R5 (R0 and R1 were used for returning results). That's a pretty high percentage (~100) of the available registers ;) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76464 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:30:12 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 13:22:57 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76452 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:30:00 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19095 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100322.UAA19095(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > From: johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au > I forgot to mention a critical point. Any PDP-11 runing Unix (except very > early versions and Miniunix), and certainly from Edition 6 onwards, MUST have > EIS. Even the Unix bootstraps used EIS. So binaries built for Unix, will run > on a 11/34/35/40/44/45/50/53/55/60/70/73/83/84/93/94 !! Absolutely correct. By the time Unix was making its way out of the lab and becoming commercially available (V7 and later for certain) the 11/70 was the target machine and while you could order an 11/70 without floating point very few (that I saw) were bought that way. Even some of the DEC bootstraps used EIS - at least the later RSX-11D ones did. At one site we couldn't boot the 11/45 into RSX-11D, it would crash part way thru the boot process. The DEC folks would bring in their diagnostic disks and they would boot just fine. Finally I insisted they run full cpu diagnostics and voila - the 'div' (or was it the 'ash' - been a looong time) instruction was failing. The diagnostic packs were RT11 based (I believe) and were meant to run on all processors rather than the 45 and up. >Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't >require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. The compiler also checks if any FP is done and generates references to special symbols as needed. The linker can then link in dummy modules for parts of the 'printf' and int->floating conversion routines and save some space that way. A kluge but on a small machine every half kb counts. >Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation The kernel (at least V7 and later) has special code in it to catch and ignore the illegal instruction 'setd' if no hardware FP is present. This is because the crt0 routine (which receives control from the kernel when a program is run) forces double precision mode in all programs. Some floating point simulators (V7's for example) ran in user mode and caught the SIGILL signal). I guess running slow instead of crashing is a plus but wow did that bog down the system immensely. Of course one of the programs that was used a lot was a Fortran one and f77 generates a *lot* of floating point code. It wasn't just the emulation of the FP instructions (that would not have been too bad) but the overhead of the hundreds of signals and context switches was a system killer. > build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler > that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. 2.10BSD and later have an in-kernel FP emulator - alas it doesn't work. About the most I did was get it thru the assembler. All the systems I have come with builtin FP. At one time Tim Shoppa was going to take a stab at pulling the FP board out of his 11/44 and see about getting the emulator working - copious free time permitting of course ;) > I have a distant memory, that I have seen FPP instructions used for some > integer arithmetic for speed. I cannot recall if it was in the kernel or In the C library. The kernel itself can't (or at least shouldn't) do floating point stuff because that might happen at interrupt level and trash the current user process (if any) context. The C library code (at least in 2.11) uses FP to do the 32 bit divide and multiply. It's a lot faster (and much less code) to convert long to double, do the operations and then store&convert double back to int or long. There might be one or two other cases but that was the primary use. And thereby hangs a bit of a tale. The KDJ-11{A,B} handle faults during a stack push by a FP instruction differently than the 11/44 or 11/70. If you have access to the 2.11BSD bug archive (I know it's on 'ns.to.gd-es.com' and 'moe.2bsd.com' - not sure of who else is mirroring it) look for update #150 (Subject is "stack expansion bug on KDJ-11 cpus". Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76504 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:45:07 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 13:32:53 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76494 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:44:59 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19137 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> > Does this mean that an unexpanded 11/40 has no EIS instructions, Quite correct. > but with the EIS option, it has more instructions than an 11/45? Adding the EIS brings an 11/40 to the same level as an 11/45 without floating point. > GCC seems to think that all PDP-11 models has ASH, but this seems > wrong. It's only in EIS, right? Yes - that's part of the EIS. Standard on the 11/45, 11/70 (and the later KDJ-11 systems such as the 11/53, 73, 83,etc) > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). Not a popular option at all. At the time DEC was trying to make the 11 more of a COBOL machine but the CIS option was too little, too late and expensive (plus it wouldn't fit as I recall on a 11/70 - just the 11/44 and newer). ... > MODF, ADDF, SUBF, and DIVF (opcodes 0xf000..0xffff). > > Would this be correct? Looks right to me. > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? Two different machines. The FADD was part of the FIS option for the 11/40 only (I don't recall ever hearing of someone adding the FIS to a 11/45 or 70). The 11/45, 70 and later all had the FPU as an option or standard (the KDJ-11{A,B} had the instructions standard but you could buy (~$600 at the time) an accelerator chip to speed them up). I don't think there were any models after the 11/70 that used the FIS. There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as well - I forget). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA77102 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:56:39 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 16:56:04 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA77098 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:56:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA22713; Wed, 10 May 2000 08:56:05 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:56:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <200005100150.LAA90764(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510085424.22474D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the > opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, > 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. You don't have a handbook for any machine that could have CIS then Warren. It was only available for the 11/44 and F-11 based machines. (11/23 11/24) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77158 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:02:53 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 17:02:40 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77154 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:02:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pQW0-0000VH-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:02:40 +0200 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 09:02:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <85g0rqzy3z.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > well - I forget). What bit pattern does that instruction have? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77208 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:11:51 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 17:11:24 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77204 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:11:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22854; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:25 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510090352.22474E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 May 2000, Steven M. Schultz wrote: Hi, all. > > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> ... > > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). > > Not a popular option at all. At the time DEC was trying to make the > 11 more of a COBOL machine but the CIS option was too little, too late > and expensive (plus it wouldn't fit as I recall on a 11/70 - just the > 11/44 and newer). Actually, not even those. It's the 11/44 and the KDF-11 based systems only, which means 11/23 and 11/24. ... > > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? > > Two different machines. The FADD was part of the FIS option for the > 11/40 only (I don't recall ever hearing of someone adding the FIS > to a 11/45 or 70). The 11/45, 70 and later all had the FPU > as an option or standard (the KDJ-11{A,B} had the instructions standard > but you could buy (~$600 at the time) an accelerator chip to speed > them up). I don't think there were any models after the 11/70 > that used the FIS. FIS is only for 11/35, 11/40 and the LSI-11. And it's a real brain-damaged thing too. Lucky us FPU came along. > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > well - I forget). Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if anyone uses it. Speaking of CSM, by the way. Slighty off-topic perhaps, but in RSX-11M-PLUS they used to have a rather complex way of getting to supervisor mode in user programs, since the 11/70 didn't have CSM. Then came the J-11, and DEC changed things around on systems having CSM to use this instruction instead. It turned out that this improved code quite a lot, so they implemented the CSM instruction by emulation on the 11/70 as well. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77339 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:41:47 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 17:41:31 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77335 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:41:39 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pR7b-0002L7-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:41:31 +0200 To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510090352.22474E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 09:41:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist's message of "Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:24 +0200 (MET DST)" Message-ID: <85bt2ezwb8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > > well - I forget). > > Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if > anyone uses it. Ok, so CSM is found in 11/44 and J11 machines? And TSTSET is found only in J11? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77372 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:47:13 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 17:46:50 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77368 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:47:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA23131; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:51 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <85bt2ezwb8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510094549.22474H-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > > > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > > > well - I forget). > > > > Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if > > anyone uses it. > > Ok, so CSM is found in 11/44 and J11 machines? Yes. > And TSTSET is found only in J11? Yes. I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA77434 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:02:00 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 18:01:44 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA77430 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:01:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pRRA-0003LQ-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:01:44 +0200 To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510094549.22474H-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 10:01:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist's message of "Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:50 +0200 (MET DST)" Message-ID: <857ld2zvdj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > And TSTSET is found only in J11? > Yes. > I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but > I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. WRTLCK perhaps? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA77937 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 20:55:53 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 20:55:32 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA77933 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 20:55:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24782; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:55:33 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:55:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <857ld2zvdj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510125423.22474I-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > > And TSTSET is found only in J11? > > Yes. > > I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but > > I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. > > WRTLCK perhaps? Yup. That sounds familiar. The J11 have several design features aimed at multi-processor systems. None were produced, however. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA78420 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 23:02:28 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 23:02:04 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA78416 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 23:02:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12pW7o-0000ZD-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:02:04 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 15:02:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <85snvqy2wj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Ok, I've tried to collect all information and make a handy table. I've also looked quit a bit at the processor feature table at http://www.pdp11.org/mirrors/www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/table.html Could you please check that this table is correct? In particular, some features may be optional instead of standard (yes) or missing (no), or vice versa. Some models are listed as (see XXX), where XXX is a CPU model used in that machine. Are there more opportunities for doing that? It would be nice to have two tables: "Machine model 11/NN used CPU models X11 or Y11." "CPU model X11 had features A, B , and C." Or something like that. Model EIS EIS40 CSM TSTSET, FPP CIS FIS WRTLCK 03 (see LSI11) (LSI-11 or LSI-11/2) 04 no no no no no no no 05 no no no no no no no 10 no no no no no no no 15 no no no no no no no 20 no no no no no no no 21 (see T11) 23 (see F11) 24 (see F11) 34 yes yes no no yes no no 35 opt yes no no no? no opt 40 opt yes no no no no? opt 44 yes yes yes no opt opt no? 45 (see KB11) 50 (see KB11) 53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 55 (see KB11+) (KB-11D) 60 yes yes no no yes[2] no no 70 (see KB11+) (KB-11B or KB-11C) 73 (see J11) (KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B) 83 (see J11) (KDJ-11B?C?) 84 (see J11) (KDJ-11B?C?) 93 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 94 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) KB11 yes yes no no opt no no KB11+ yes yes no no yes[1] no no J11 yes yes yes yes yes opt no LSI11 opt yes no no no no opt T11 no no no no no no no F11 yes yes no no opt opt no [1] = really optional, but most shipped with fpp [2] = microcoded fpp standard, accelerated hardware fpp optional EIS = RTT, SPL, MARK, SXT, MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, XOR, SOB EIS40 = RTT, MARK, SXT, XOR, SOB FPP = CFCC, SETF, SETI, SETD, SETL, LDFPS, STFPS, STST, CLRF, TSTF, ABSF, NEGF, MULF, MODF, ADDF, LDF, SUBF, CMPF, STF, DIVF, STEXP, STCFI, STCFF', LDEXP, LDCIF, LDCFF' CIS = L2D, L3D, ADDP, ADDN, ADDNI, ADDPI, ASHN, ASHP, ASHNI, ASHPI, CMPC, CMPCI, CMPN, CMPP, CMPNI, CMPPI, CVTLN, CVTLP, CVT, CVTLNI, CVTLPI, CVTNL, CVTPL, CVLNI, CVTPLI, CVTNP, CVTPN, CVTNPI, CVTPNI, DIVP, DIVPI, LOCC, LOCCI, MATC, MATCI, MOVC, MOVCI, MOVRC, MOVRCI, MOVTC, MOVTCI, MULP, MULPI, SCANC, SCANCI, SKPC, SKPCI, SPANC, SPANCI, SUBN, SUBP, SUBNI, SUBPI FIS = FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FSUB KB11 = KB-11 KB11+ = KB-11B, KB-11C, or KB-11D J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B LSI11 = LSI-11 or LSI-11/2 T11 = ? F11 = ? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA78761 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:18 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu May 11 00:15:55 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA78757 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26854; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:15:56 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:15:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <85snvqy2wj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510154632.22474K-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: [table deleted...] First I think it's wrong of you to call the limited EIS stuff implemented by default on the 11/40 "EIS40". It's just that parts of the EIS was always available, with or without the optional EIS. Second, the FPU implemented in the 11/60 was a bit special, and not compatible with the normal FPU, which was an option. I'm not aware of anything that used the 11/60 internal FPU stuff. Specifically, it used the normal processor registers for operations, and I don't remember exactly if the data format was compatible, but it didn't have double precision at all. I can probably dig up specific details if you are interested. I think I have a processor handbook for the 11/60 somewhere. About processor names: KA11 was the 11/15 and 11/20. KB11-A was the 11/45, 11/50. KB11-B was the 11/70. KB11-C was the 11/70. KB11-D was the 11/55. KB11-Cm and KB-11E was the never produced 11/74. KD11-A was the 11/35 and 11/40. KD11-B was the 11/05 and 11/10. KD11-D was the 11/04. KD11-E was the 11/34. KD11-EA was the 11/34a. KD11-[FHQ] was the 11/03. KD11-HA was the LSI-11/2. KD11-K was the 11/60. KD11-Z was the 11/44. KDF11 is F-11 based. KDJ11 is J-11 based. All as far as I can glean from various sources. KE11 is not a processor, but instead different processor options, such as EIS, FIS, EAE and such. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA79057 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 01:39:06 +1000 (EST) >From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.ibm.com> Thu May 11 01:37:51 2000 Received: from fw0.transarc.com (xfw.transarc.ibm.com [192.54.226.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA79053 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 01:38:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com (mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com [9.38.192.125]) by fw0.transarc.com (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09672 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smithfield.transarc.ibm.com (smithfield.transarc.ibm.com [9.38.192.92]) by mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA28911 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:37:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.ibm.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <200005100135.LAA02228(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000510111921.6129B-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.ibm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000 johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au wrote: > > Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't > require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. > Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation > build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler > that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. > This discussion brings back memories ... I once found a bug in the kernel floating-point stuff on V7m on an 11/40 (without FIS). Turned out that, if you took a zero-length file, chmod'ed it to be executable, and then tried to run it, the kernel would take a path through the code that it didn't normally take, in which it tried to save the *real* FP registers - which were not there, and attempting to touch the missing registers would panic the machine. I found this while I was a lab assistant for a computer architecture course, taking care of this 11/40 that the department had just aquired (another department was about to discard it, so we picked it up ...), and which was being used by students learning assembly language programming. As you might imagine, these folks generated zero-length a.out files *all the time* (since that's what 'as' would sometimes output if your source code had errors in it), and sometimes they'd try to execute them. Therefore, the machine was crashing a couple of times a day until I found and fixed the bug ... --Pat. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA79425 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:30:10 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu May 11 02:20:58 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA79421 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:30:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA28584 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:20:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005101620.JAA28584(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> >> There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > What bit pattern does that instruction have? 070DD It's a single operand instruction. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA79549 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 03:06:26 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 03:06:12 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA79545 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 03:06:18 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:06:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:06:12 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000510130612.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Some models are listed as (see XXX), where XXX is a CPU model used in >that machine. Are there more opportunities for doing that? It would >be nice to have two tables: "Machine model 11/NN used CPU models X11 or >Y11." "CPU model X11 had features A, B , and C." Or something like >that. It's complicated by the fact that often the same CPU module was used in differently DEC-labeled systems. For example, a late-rev KDJ11B with PMI memory in a Q-bus is an 11/83; the exact same CPU board with non-PMI memory in a Q-bus is an 11/73. And the exact same CPU board in a very different backplane is an 11/84. And an 11/73 can also have a KDJ11A in it, a very different module. See Micronote #39. At one point I began writing up a "KDJ11-x" FAQ, but never got it finished. There are many variations between different revs of the J11 CPU chip and the boards, especially with respect to whether FPJ11's work properly or not. Many (but not all) of the KDJ11 differences are well described in Micronote #39, _KDJ11-A and KDJ11-B Differences_. (Side hint: everyone should have a copy of the Micronotes. If you don't have a printed set, you can read them online at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ by clicking on "Micronotes"). >53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. >93 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) >94 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 93's and 94's are KDJ11-E's. >J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) >T11 = ? Never sold as a "PDP-11" system, though the chip does implement the basic PDP-11 instruction set (and some of the add-ons.) It was sold by DEC in the KXT11-CA single board computer, which had a T11, 32K RAM, up to 32K of EPROM, 3 serial lines, some parallel I/O, and a Q-bus interface. For more information see Micronote #16, _KXT11-CA Development Tools_ Micronote #18, _KXT11-CA DMA Programming_ Micronote #32, _KXT11-CA Parallel I/O_ Micronote #34, _Programming KXT-11C Multi SLU_ You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). >F11 = ? aka "Fonz-11", the CPU chipset used in 11/23's, 11/24's, the lower-end DEC PRO's, etc. The CPU chipset used in the LSI-11/02 and /03 is a Western Digital chipset, and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA79749 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:04:13 +1000 (EST)

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Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

The 11/45 has the base instruction set, plus EIS (MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL, SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT). This was standard with the CPU, and the optional floating point unit (another 4 cards in the backplane) added the floating point instruction set. The 11/40 has billions (Carl Sagans) of options. The minimal processor had the base set, plus SOB, MARK, RTT, XOR and SXT. Processor options added extra microcode and extra shift registers and counters to the data path. Option Description KE11-E EIS instruction set (ASH, ASHC, DIV, MUL) KE11-F FIS instruction set (FDIV, FMUL, FADD, FSUB) KJ11-A Stack limit register KT11-D Memory management KW11-L Line time clock The processor options had dedicated slots, but lots of jumpers have to be changed to enable them. Note that there are just four floating point instructions (not directly compatible with any FPP instruction), and they are not very PDP-11 like in their behaviour. The instructions have a three bit address field to specify a register. The register points to a 'floating point stack frame' that contains the arguments for the instruction in memory. The floating point number format is the same as FPP. When the original LSI-11 came out, it was modeled on 11/40, again with the base instructions, plus SOB, MARK, RTT, XOR and SXT. EIS and FIS were options in 'Microm Chips' (extra microcode). There was no memory management options and it lacked an addressable PSW (processor status word) and switch register (01777570). Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA75920 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:36:00 +1000 (EST)

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Help: PDP-11 instruction classification

by lars brinkhoff

I'm adding PDP-11 support to GNU binutils, and I need help on classifying the instruction set. I'm somewhat confused, because: PDP-11 FAQ says: 11/45 introduced MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL. Later, 11/40 introduced SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT. MUL, DIV, etc in EIS option. GCC pdp11.md and pdp11.c says: 11/40 and 11/45 has SOB, SXT, XOR. 11/45 has ASHC, MUL, DIV. All models has ASH. John Holden writes: 11/40 and 11/45 has EIS and FPU instructions. 11/40 had several options to add EIS, FIS and a MMU. Does this mean that an unexpanded 11/40 has no EIS instructions, but with the EIS option, it has more instructions than an 11/45? GCC seems to think that all PDP-11 models has ASH, but this seems wrong. It's only in EIS, right? So far, this is the classification I've come up with: BASIC: the basic instruction set. CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). EIS45: 11/45 extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL. EIS40: 11/40 extended instruction set: EIS45 + SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT. FIS: FADD, FSUB, FMUL, and FDIV (opcodes 0x7a00..0x7bff). FPU: LDF, STF, LDCFF', STCFF', CMPF, LDEXP, STEXP, LDCIF, STCFI, MULF, MODF, ADDF, SUBF, and DIVF (opcodes 0xf000..0xffff). Would this be correct? FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA75480 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:20 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed May 10 09:47:01 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA75476 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:13 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA89501; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005092347.JAA89501(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Good news on the Ancient UNIX License front In-Reply-To: <20000508150240.A7092(a)loomcom.com> from sjm at "May 8, 2000 3: 2:40 pm" To: sethm(a)loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:01 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by sjm: > Hello all, > > I've just received this mail from SCO. I think it's appropriate to > post here. > > Apparently we can expect the Ancient UNIX License available on the > SCO website by Friday (U.S. Pacific Time, I would suspect). Very > good news indeed! I'm just back from a training course. I've seen a preview of the web site. You get to click-thru the license agreement, then you have a set of hyperlinks to the UNIX versions that SCO owns (5e, 6e, 7e, 32V, SysIII, Mini UNIX). I'm still trying to work out an access method to the PUPS Archive with them, but I think we're getting there. So, you will get access to some UNIX source code soon, but access to the PUPS Archive might be a week or so longer. Cheers all! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA75681 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:50 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed May 10 10:27:22 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA75677 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA89955; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005100027.KAA89955(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: PDP land In-Reply-To: <20000505191242.A13087(a)ussenterprise.ufp.org> from Leo Bicknell at "May 5, 2000 7:12:42 pm" To: bicknell(a)ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:22 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Leo Bicknell: > I don't know if you remember me or not. I believe we talked > before when I was a student at Virginia Tech about Unix on a PDP-11/40 > that I had. Alas, I had to let those machines go as I didn't have > the time or space to keep them. > > I went looking for PDP stuff on the web, and ran across your > name again. I thought I'd give you a whirl. I'm now in a position to > give real data center space to one or more of these beasts, and I would > love to put a PDP-11 up on the net running old-school unix. > > Any pointers as to where to find someone giving away or > selling one of these beasts? > > Thanks. > Leo Bicknell - bicknell(a)ufp.org Leo, I'm punting this on to the PUPS mailing list to see if you get any nibbles. Go to http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/maillist.html to see how to join. You could also try the Usenet newsgroups alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA75735 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:37:58 +1000 (EST)

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Good news on the Ancient UNIX License front

by sjm

Hello all, I've just received this mail from SCO. I think it's appropriate to post here. Apparently we can expect the Ancient UNIX License available on the SCO website by Friday (U.S. Pacific Time, I would suspect). Very good news indeed! Included message follows: >To: sethm(a)loomcom.com >From: Paul Kaspian <paulka(a)sco.COM> >Subject: Re: Fwd: Regarding the Ancient UNIX license >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Hi Seth, > >Sorry for the late reply. We are in the process of adding Ancient UNIX to our >web site now that the $100 fee is waived. This should be up on the site by May >12th. It will be located at www.sco.com/offers. Please let me know if you have >any questions. > >Sincerely, > >Paul Kasipan >Marketing Manager >SCO > > >At 10:25 AM 4/26/00 -0700, you wrote: > >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:58:24 -0700 >>From: sjm <sethm(a)loomcom.com> >>To: toms(a)sco.com >>Subject: Regarding the Ancient UNIX license >>X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1us >> >>Hello, >> >>I read your recent press release regarding SCO's new open source >>initiatives with some interest. Specifically, I'm curious what your >>plans are regarding the "Ancient" UNIX license which SCO previously >>charged $100 for. Do you know when the new free license will be >>available? >> >>Thank you for your help, >> >>-Seth Morabito >> sethm(a)loomcom.com -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm(a)loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> *

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History of Unix mv.

by Brian Chase

When was the "mv" command first updated to do a copy/remove for regular files being moved across filesystems? -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA98999 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:23:30 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 27 12:23:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA98993 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:23:18 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA11845; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:23:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004270223.MAA11845(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: History of Unix mv. In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0004261906390.6381-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian Chase at "Apr 26, 2000 7:10:18 pm" To: bdc(a)world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:23:11 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Brian Chase: > When was the "mv" command first updated to do a copy/remove for regular > files being moved across filesystems? > -brian. V2 mv(1) manual says files can't be moved across filesystems. V3 mv(1) manual doesn't say either way. V4 mv(1) manual says the file will be copied and the original deleted. V5 mv(1) source code exec's cp(1) when the destination is on a different filesystem. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00577 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:20:01 +1000 (EST) >From Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Apr 27 16:19:43 2000 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00567 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:19:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com (bdc(a)world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13645; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (bdc@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA19153; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:19:43 -0700 From: Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: History of Unix mv. In-Reply-To: <200004270223.MAA11845(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0004262316570.10764-100000(a)world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Brian Chase: > > When was the "mv" command first updated to do a copy/remove for regular > > files being moved across filesystems? > > -brian. > > V2 mv(1) manual says files can't be moved across filesystems. V3 mv(1) > manual doesn't say either way. V4 mv(1) manual says the file will be > copied and the original deleted. V5 mv(1) source code exec's cp(1) when > the destination is on a different filesystem. So wait. I need some clarification here. When you say V2, V3, V4, etc.. do you mean 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 4th Ed Unix? -brian. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00629 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:22:57 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 27 16:22:42 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00623 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:22:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id QAA13320; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:22:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004270622.QAA13320(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: History of Unix mv. In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0004262316570.10764-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian Chase at "Apr 26, 2000 11:19:43 pm" To: bdc(a)world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:22:42 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Brian Chase: > > V2 mv(1) manual says files can't be moved across filesystems. V3 mv(1) > > manual doesn't say either way. V4 mv(1) manual says the file will be > > copied and the original deleted. V5 mv(1) source code exec's cp(1) when > > the destination is on a different filesystem. > > So wait. I need some clarification here. When you say V2, V3, V4, etc.. > do you mean 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 4th Ed Unix? > -brian. Yup, 2nd Edition == 2e == V2. 1st Edition November 3, 1971 2nd Edition June 12, 1972 3rd Edition February, 1973 4th Edition November, 1973 5th Edition June, 1974 6th Edition May, 1975 7th Edition January, 1979 8th Edition February, 1985 9th Edition September, 1986 10th Edition October, 1989 Cheers, Warren

25 years

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Ancient UNIX to be free (was: cscope now available under the BSD license)

by Greg Lehey

If you're planning to buy an AU licence, now isn't the time :-) Greg ----- Forwarded message from atrn(a)zeta.org.au ----- > Delivered-To: freebsd-chat(a)freebsd.org > Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:45:17 +1000 (EST) > > On 19 Apr, I wrote: >> SCO has made the cscope sources available under the BSD license. >> There's a press release at, >> >> http://www.sco.com/press/releases/2000/6927.html > > And further down the press release they state, > > Additionally, SCO has simplified its "Ancient" UNIX program and waived the > $100 processing fee. Anyone will be able to log onto the SCO web site and > download historically preserved UNIX code for educational and non- > commercial use. > > (Note future tense "will be able to", it's not there yet). > > This essentially halves the cost of getting the CSRG CD's from Kirk > McKusick. > > -- > Andy Newman ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

25 years, 1 month

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SCO Ancient UNIX license now free

by Warren Toomey

[ This from a SCO press release ] SCO Contributes to the Open Source Community; Kicks Off Open Source Initiatives Company to Release Key Technologies, Source Code, and Resources for Software Developers; "Ancient" UNIX Source Code Available for Free [ ... ] Additionally, SCO has simplified its "Ancient" UNIX program and waived the $100 processing fee. Anyone will be able to log onto the SCO web site and download historically preserved UNIX code for educational and non-commercial use. ___________________ Tom Fox-Sellers Public Relations Specialist, Linux & Open Source Tel: 831-427-7049 Email: mailto:toms@sco.com Press: http://www.sco.com/press ___________________ Side note: you still have to have a license, it's just free to obtain now. I won't be able to make things available anonymously still. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA52221 for pups-liszt; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:47:03 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 20 09:46:49 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA52216 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:46:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA63622; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:46:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004192346.JAA63622(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCO Ancient UNIX license now free In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.03.10004191642250.26245-100000(a)andru.sonoma.edu> from Andru Luvisi at "Apr 19, 2000 4:43: 1 pm" To: luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu (Andru Luvisi) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:46:49 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Andru Luvisi: > Could I trouble you for the URL on SCO's site? I can find the press > release, but the license eludes me. Actually, the URL SCO used to use, http://www.sco.com/offers/, doesn't have the license anymore. So I assume they are rearranging their site. Here are some excepts from my SCO contact as to what they _might_ do: What we basically want to do is: 1) Waive the $100 fee for the source code. 2) Make our portion of the source (by separating it from DEC's etc. etc.) available from our web site, while still leaving it available on yours. We would still like to refer people to you if they would like other source code or would like to purchase a CD 3) Make the license agreement available online with a click through in order to eliminate the paperwork. (We would probably just e-mail you the people who have agreed to the license for your records) We will however require that people "click through" our site (or possibly yours) to gain access to your FTP site and media distribution. We will consider any person that accepts the license agreement from our site a "license holder". I'm currently working on an automatic mechanism which would allow a person to click-agree to the on-line SCO license (whenever that occurs), which would give them access to the UNIX source code via SCO's web site, and also password-protected access to the PUPS Archive here. *** Note the Archive contains stuff that SCO doesn't own, e.g Ultrix, the BSD releases, but which still require a UNIX source license. For all those who haven't bought an Ancient UNIX license from SCO, if you can I would hang off from ordering one until the web mechanism arrives. It will save you and SCO the time & delay of processing paperwork. If you _really_ require a license, and are prepared to wait 6 weeks, then go to http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/getlicense.html to get a copy of the license. Post it to SCO, but don't send any money!! Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52566 for pups-liszt; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:16:24 +1000 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> Thu Apr 20 11:09:04 2000 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA52562 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:16:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 22486 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 11:24:07 +1000 Received: from trowel.geac.com.au (134.128.219.30) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 11:24:07 +1000 Received: (qmail 25870 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 12:18:09 +1000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au (134.128.222.46) by trowel.geac.com.au with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 12:18:09 +1000 Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au?r with ESMTP id LAA20025 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:09:04 +1000 (EST)$ Delivered-To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-Authentication-Warning: fgh.geac.com.au: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:09:04 +1000 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> X-Sender: dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCO Ancient UNIX license now free In-Reply-To: <200004192257.IAA63322(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0004201108070.19440-100000(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Side note: you still have to have a license, it's just free to obtain now. I don't suppose they'll offer a refund? :-) -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52620 for pups-liszt; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:29:32 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 20 11:29:23 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA52614 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:29:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA64313; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:29:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004200129.LAA64313(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCO Ancient UNIX license now free In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0004201108070.19440-100000(a)fgh.geac.com.au> from Dave Horsfall at "Apr 20, 2000 11: 9: 4 am" To: dave(a)horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:29:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Dave Horsfall: > On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > Side note: you still have to have a license, it's just free to obtain now. > > I don't suppose they'll offer a refund? :-) Consider yourself a well-paid member of the Unix Freedom Fighters :-) Warren

25 years, 1 month

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Request: More volunteers for PUPS Archive

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, It's time to call again for volunteers to help out with the distribution of the PUPS Archive. In particular, if you have received a CD of the archive within the last 9 months, and you can duplicate it, then please let me know if you are willing to distribute a few CDs a month. We have a need for people in Asia, Japan, Australia, South America, but I'll take anybody anywhere! Many thanks in advance for your offers. Cheers, Warren

25 years, 1 month

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Early file system layouts (was: Splitting / and /usr)

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Warren is right that even the First Edition manual says that init mounts /usr, implying that /usr was a distinct file system even that early. It seems to me that the original question Greg forwarded from the NetBSD list was also after when /usr/bin appeared, which isn't necessarily the same date. A possible answer from old manuals: - Second Edition sh(I) (dated 3/15/72): If the first argument is the name of an executable file, it is invoked; otherwise the string "/bin/" is prepended to the argument. (In this way the standard commands, which reside in "/bin", are found.) If the "/bin" file exists, but is not executable, it is used by the shell as a command file. - Third Edition sh(I) (dated 1/15/73): If the first argument is the name of an executable file, it is invoked; otherwise the string "/bin/" is prepended to the argument. (In this way most standard commands, which reside in "/bin", are found.) If no such command is found, the string "/usr" is further prepended (to give "/usr/bin/command") and another attempt is made to execute the resulting file. (Certain "overflow" commands live in "/usr/bin".) If the "/usr/bin" file exists, but is not executable, it is used by the shell as a command file. Notice the odd detail that non-executable files in /bin (early on) or /usr/bin (later) get special treatment. Does this mean that shell scripts that weren't in /usr/bin had to be invoked explicitly via `sh script' instead of just `script'? Even deeper historic trivia: it occurred to me to check the fragments of the PDP-7 system I have on paper to see whether /usr existed then. I was quickly reminded that it almost certainly didn't because subdirectories weren't really used then; there were no pathnames in that system. (You could open only files in the working directory, though you could link from another directory.) When asked to invoke `x', the shell first tried to open `x', then to link `x' from directory `system' and open the result. (Presumably it remembered to remove the needless link after the open, but I'm not quite certain; the old paper copy is missing a few lines just there.) So even the name `bin' doesn't date back quite to the beginning. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA39649 for pups-liszt; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:53 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Apr 18 10:10:41 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA39645 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:42 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA42226 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004180010.KAA42226(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Early file system layouts In-Reply-To: <200004172217.IAA38973(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cs.utoronto.ca" at "Apr 16, 2000 2:43:14 pm" To: Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:41 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by norman(a)nose.cs.utoronto.ca: > - Second Edition sh(I) (dated 3/15/72): > If the first argument is the name of an executable file, > it is invoked; otherwise the string "/bin/" is prepended > to the argument. (In this way the standard commands, > which reside in "/bin", are found.) If the "/bin" file > exists, but is not executable, it is used by the shell > as a command file. > Notice the odd detail that non-executable files in /bin (early on) > or /usr/bin (later) get special treatment. Does this mean that > shell scripts that weren't in /usr/bin had to be invoked explicitly > via `sh script' instead of just `script'? Can't tell, we don't have the source code. In the Nsys kernel (dated just before the 4th Edition), files must have the execute bit on or they can't be exec(2)d. Warren

25 years, 1 month

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Help running 2.11 on Supnik 2.3d

by lars brinkhoff

I've tried running the image in /Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 on Supnik's emulator version 2.3d, but the root filsystem seems corrupted, with many binaries being unexecutable, bad block error messages, etc. Does anyone know how to successfully boot this image? If this is the wrong place for this kind of question, or if there's a FAQ on this, then please point me in the right direction. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA92766 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:33:33 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 13 08:33:16 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA92762 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:33:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA06177; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:33:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004122233.IAA06177(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help running 2.11 on Supnik 2.3d In-Reply-To: <85ln2jsewz.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> from lars brinkhoff at "Apr 12, 2000 2: 5:16 pm" To: lars(a)nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:33:16 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by lars brinkhoff: > I've tried running the image in /Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 [from the PUPS > Archive] on Supnik's emulator version 2.3d, but the root filsystem seems > corrupted, with many binaries being unexecutable, bad block > error messages, etc. > > Does anyone know how to successfully boot this image? Hmm, if I get a chance I'll try it here. Has anybody used this image successfully? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA94344 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:23:56 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Apr 13 13:22:56 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA94340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:23:38 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA16968; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:22:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200004130322.UAA16968(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: lars(a)nocrew.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help running 2.11 on Supnik 2.3d Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> > I've tried running the image in /Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 on > Supnik's emulator version 2.3d, but the root filsystem seems > corrupted, with many binaries being unexecutable, bad block error messages, > etc. > > Does anyone know how to successfully boot this image? Yes. The problem is not with the images (although the whole "on rl02" is a pain - you're far better off using the "xp" or large disk support that Bob added). > If this is the wrong place for this kind of question, or if > there's a FAQ on this, then please point me in the right direction. This is a very good place to ask this type of question. And now the moment you've been waiting for: "the Answer" ;) 2.11BSD is *very* upset at having to run in 256kb of memory. since the kernel plus buffer cache (and other data structures) can easily exceed 200kb there is not enough memory left over to run a program. Programs such as 'fsck' are fairly large split I/D programs and won't fit in the remaining ~56kb or so. The quick fix to the problem is adding the line: set cpu 2048K to the config file before running the simulator. That will give the simulated PDP-11 2Mb of memory which is a real nice size. Oh, if memory is a concern on the system then "set cpu 1024K" will work well. Since there's no networking involved 1Mb will be quite adequate. If you were using "P11" (the Begemot emulator) and had the full IP/TCP stack, etc then the kernel+networking+buffers can reach close to 400Kb and you might want to use 2Mb for the memory size. You might also look into the latest version (2.5) of the Begemot emulator. The two key advantages of P11 are: 1) a emulated DEQNA so you can place the PDP11 on a network, 2) It keeps _good_ time (version 2.4 and earlier had severe timeskew when running compute bound programs, 2.5 is awesomely better and within range of "ntp" to keep the clock correct). P11 also supports (as does Bob Supnik's simulator) large disks such as the RP06 which is much nicer than 4 RL02s and a batch of RK05s. Hmmm, I'm not sure which rev level of 2.11BSD is in the "on_rl02" images - I hope it has the "bounce buffer support" to handle the 18bit RK controller on a 22bit bus... If the RK images show corrupt or the kernel crashes then I would suspect the kernel is a bit too old. Unpack the "211bsd_on_rl02" images from the .gz images, edit the "script" file to increase the system memory and you should be all set to go. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA94566 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:56:35 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Apr 13 14:56:23 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA94562 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:56:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA45453 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:26:23 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:26:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Early file system layouts (was: Splitting / and /usr) Message-ID: <20000413142623.A45386(a)freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Saw this on a NetBSD list. Greg ----- Forwarded message from "Alistair G. Crooks" <agc(a)ftp.netbsd.org> ----- > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:31:41 -0700 (PDT) > To: kre(a)munnari.oz.au > Cc: current-users(a)netbsd.org > Precedence: list > Delivered-To: current-users(a)netbsd.org > > Robert, > > [Off topic warning] > >>> Did you not know that /usr was split off only because the disks were too >>> small to keep everything on one way back in the early days >> >> That's how I heard it too - but this split must have occurred way back >> very early in the days before anyone outside Bell Labs had ever heard of >> unix (as I remember it, even the CACM paper had /usr in it). > > I believe that the topic of splitting / and /usr was discussed > at the Glasgow University meeting of the UKUUG, which was around > 1978, if my memory serves me well. As the first copy of V5 and V6 > came out of the labs in the 1975/1976 timeframe, I suspect it came > later. I don't have my copy of the CACM paper to hand, so I can't > check dates. > > Whilst I attented the University there at that time, I didn't attend > the conference - more fool me. > > I suspect that Alistair Kilgour or Zdravko Podolski could provide > more information, or any of the Bell Labs alumni who were there. > > agc ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- Forwarded message from Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.OZ.AU> ----- > To: "Alistair G. Crooks" <agc(a)ftp.netbsd.org> > Cc: current-users(a)netbsd.org > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:36:15 +1000 > Precedence: list > Delivered-To: current-users(a)netbsd.org > > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:31:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Alistair G. Crooks" <agc(a)ftp.netbsd.org> > Message-ID: <200004120831.BAA06860(a)nbftp.isc.org> > >> [Off topic warning] > > Ditto - but recording history sometimes has its uses... > >> I believe that the topic of splitting / and /usr was discussed >> at the Glasgow University meeting of the UKUUG, which was around >> 1978, > > It was definitely done before that. > > Unfortunately, I can't find a 5th edition manual (or even a reprinted > facsimilie thereof at the minute), but the 6th edition manual for sh(1) > says ... > > If the first argument [ on a command line ] is the name of an > executable file, it is invoked; otherwise the string `/bin' is > prepended to the argument. (In this way most standard commands, > which reside in `/bin', are found.) If no such command is found, > the string `/usr' is further prepended (to give `/usr/bin/command') > and another attempt is made to execute the resulting file. (Certain > lesser-used commands live in `/usr/bin'.) > > The sixth edition manual is dated May 75, but the date on the sh man page > is 5/15/74 (which I interpret as the 15th of May, 1974). > > For those who are new to unix (within the last 20 years) note that there > was no notion of a user settable path... > >> I don't have my copy of the CACM paper to hand, so I can't >> check dates. > > I have checked now, and it says nothing either way, so that is no help. > Kernighan's "Unix for Beginners" (of a generally similar vintage) gives > a diagrammatic view of the filesystem tree, in which all that exists in > /usr are user directories, though that is not really conclusive. > >> I suspect that Alistair Kilgour or Zdravko Podolski could provide >> more information, or any of the Bell Labs alumni who were there. > > I will see if Dennis will tell me... > > kre > ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- Forwarded message from Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.OZ.AU> ----- > To: "Alistair G. Crooks" <agc(a)ftp.netbsd.org>, current-users(a)netbsd.org > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:45:05 +1000 > Precedence: list > Delivered-To: current-users(a)netbsd.org > > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:36:15 +1000 > From: Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.OZ.AU> > Message-ID: <353.955586175(a)munnari.OZ.AU> > >> I will see if Dennis will tell me... > > He did, ... > > But early; definitely by the time of the "nsys" system, the > first C version, which was 1973. > > And ... > > The point of /usr/bin was really to find a place to put > those binaries. (The .5MB disk was pretty cramped even > with with two of them, as we later had). > > which (if we ever needed it) is confirmation or the original reason... > > kre > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA94737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:32:38 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 13 15:32:02 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA94732 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:32:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id PAA08492; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:32:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004130532.PAA08492(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Early file system layouts (/ and /usr split) In-Reply-To: <20000413142623.A45386(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 13, 2000 2:26:23 pm" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:32:02 +1000 (EST) Cc: current-users(a)netbsd.org Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk [ This came to me from a NetBSD mailing list, via Greg Lehey ] Someone said..... > >>> Did you not know that /usr was split off only because the disks were too > >>> small to keep everything on one way back in the early days Someone else said.... > > I believe that the topic of splitting / and /usr was discussed > > at the Glasgow University meeting of the UKUUG, which was around > > 1978, if my memory serves me well. As the first copy of V5 and V6 > > came out of the labs in the 1975/1976 timeframe, I suspect it came > > later. I don't have my copy of the CACM paper to hand, so I can't > > check dates. The answer is: UNIX had / and /usr split by at least the time of the July 1974 CACM paper ``The UNIX Time-sharing system''. Here is the evidence: At http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.txt and http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg you will find a picture of Ken and Dennis at the PDP-11/20 around 1972. The commentary in the text file from John Holden tell us that the disk drives are RF-11 and RK03 drives. RF-11 drives were fixed head drives with 512K of storage with fast access. RK03s and RK05s could store 2M, but were not as fast as RF-11s. The source code to (nearly) 3rd Edition UNIX, dated August 31, 1973, only has drivers for two disks, RF-11s and RK05s. This source code is in the PUPS Archive, http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS. You need a Unix src license. Now, the July 1974 CACM paper says this: In our installation, for example, the root directory resides on the fixed-head disk, and the large disk drive, which contains user's files, is mounted by the system initialization program; .... To me, this strongly indicates that / and /usr were split by at least July 1974, if not the earlier date of August 1973. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA94865 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:50:31 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 13 15:50:17 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA94861 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:50:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id PAA08605; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:50:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004130550.PAA08605(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Early file system layouts (/ and /usr split) In-Reply-To: <200004130532.PAA08492(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Apr 13, 2000 3:32: 2 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:50:17 +1000 (EST) Cc: grog(a)lemis.com, current-users(a)netbsd.org Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > The answer is: UNIX had / and /usr split by at least the time of the > July 1974 CACM paper ``The UNIX Time-sharing system''. I just found some more evidence. The 2nd Edition UNIX manual is dated June 1972, but the actual man pages have their date of last modification. The manual for init(7), dated 15th June 1972, says: [ If console switches are set to 173030, a shell is attached to the console immediately, i.e single-user mode ] Otherwise, init does some housekeeping: the mode of each DECtape file is changed to [read-write] (in case the system crashed during a tap command); directory /usr is mounted on the RK0 disk; directory /sys is mounted on the RK1 disk. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA94952 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:59:25 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 13 15:59:06 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA94946 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:59:16 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id PAA08671; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:59:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004130559.PAA08671(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Early file system layouts (/ and /usr split) In-Reply-To: <200004130550.PAA08605(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Apr 13, 2000 3:50:17 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:59:06 +1000 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, grog(a)lemis.com, current-users(a)netbsd.org Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > In article by Warren Toomey: > > The answer is: UNIX had / and /usr split by at least the time of the > > July 1974 CACM paper ``The UNIX Time-sharing system''. > > I just found some more evidence. And more, from the 1st Edition init(7) man page dated 3rd November, 1971. Directory usr is assigned via sys mount as resident on the RK disk. and sys mount means the mount(2) system call. Cheers, Warren

25 years, 1 month

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Some interesting old UNIX news

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, I'd just like to welcome the new people to the PUPS list. This is probably the first e-mail in the list for a few weeks. I've been pretty busy at work, but there is some interesting news on the old UNIX front. + SCO has now sold over 220 old Unix licenses, and I have something like 120 license holders with access to the on-line PUPS Archive. We've lost count of the number of CDs produced by the PUPS Volunteers (thanks guys!) + I've got some Y2K patches for Unix coming in from Alexey Chupahin in Russia. Once I get them sorted out, they will be put into the archive. + The baton of old Unix at SCO has been passed from Dion Johnson to David Eyes and now to Paul Kaspian, their Open Source Marketing Manager. There will be some changes to the Ancient UNIX license. If you haven't bought a license, I would recommend NOT sending in any money just yet. This will be good news, but I'm waiting on SCO to announce the details. I'll keep you all informed as usual. Cheers, Warren P.S the Minix operating system has been released under a BSD license. Anybody want to port it to the PDP-11 family?

25 years, 1 month

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11/23

by Tim Bradshaw

Someone is offering me an 11/23 with (I think) 2 small disks (RL-something) which are meant to bbe 10Mb each (maybe 5?) Can someone tell me what Unices this will run? It has no media other than the disks (it has, I think, RT-11), but I've read about people getting stuff into things down a serial line -- how practical is that? Thanks --tim

25 years, 2 months

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DEC documentation preservation [RE: VS3100m76 ethernet problem (fwd)]

by Brian Chase

I saw the following on the linux-vax list. It seems to me it might be worthwhile for us to get more info on the scope of the project, its terms, and to see if we can collectively contribute to it. We'd all benefit from having better access to old DEC documentation. -brian. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:33:44 -0500 (EST) >From: quayle(a)infinet.com Reply-To: linux-vax(a)mithra.physics.montana.edu To: linux-vax(a)mithra.physics.montana.edu Subject: RE: VS3100m76 ethernet problem > > I took out the Owners manual that I forgot to send you, but it > > states that 0000.0001 is normal, and if the last digit is anything > > else it should/could still work normaly. Every error in the Error Code > > table is 0000.x00y (for example: 0000.600C Loopback failed). The Dallas/Fort Worth DECUS local users group is scanning all Digital documentation, no matter how old. You might contact them (denton(a)dsserv.com or wisniewski(a)dwlug.decus.org) to see if they'd like to copy your manuals. You get a free copy of everything they've scanned when they finish.

25 years, 2 months

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copies of old AT&T licenses

by Eugene Kim

I'm looking for copies of old AT&T licenses for a book I'm writing on the history of free software. I'm most interested in the source licenses to UNIX V6 and V7 -- I'd like to examine the wording difference between the two -- but I'd be interested in obtaining copies of licenses for all versions, both source and binary. If anyone has copies they'd be willing to make available to me, or if anyone knows where I can get copies, I'd really appreciate the information. Thanks! -Eugene -- +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim(a)eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+

25 years, 3 months

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Why upper case configuration file names in BSD?

by Greg Lehey

I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA70030 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:38:03 +1100 (EST) >From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com> Fri Feb 4 08:37:42 2000 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (firewall-user(a)smtp.sw.oz.au [203.31.96.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA70021 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:37:54 +1100 (EST) Received: (from peterc@localhost) by smtp.sw.oz.au (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA19456; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:37:42 +1100 (EST) From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14490.822.632534.491258(a)swag.sw.oz.au> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:37:42 +1100 (EST) To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Why upper case configuration file names in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20000204084928.E26290(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000204084928.E26290(a)freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 21.1 "Gimme a 6 and 5!" XEmacs Lucid (patch 2) Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: Greg> I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD Greg> kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper Greg> case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be? The same reason that Makefile has an upper-case first letter -- so it appears early in an ls listing, rather than in the middle of a big long list. Peter C Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA70141 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:47:14 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 3 months

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Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by Terry Lambert

> Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? Unlike BeOS, FreeBSD is multiuser, and supports the concept of credentials. I was asked to do some work porting some things, including NFS, SMB, NetWare, and filesystem support to BeOS, but it has an intrinsic lack of a security model, which can not be easily overcome. It is not suitable as a server OS. Terry Lambert terry(a)lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA60331 for pups-liszt; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:17:36 +1100 (EST) >From Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Thu Feb 3 00:17:11 2000 Received: from superluminal.usn.nl (root(a)superluminal.usn.nl [194.183.103.23]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA60327 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:17:26 +1100 (EST) Received: (from arno@localhost) by superluminal.usn.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA13527 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:17:12 +0100 From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Message-Id: <200002021417.PAA13527(a)superluminal.usn.nl> Subject: Qbus bootstrap board/ROMS? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:17:11 +0100 (CET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL48 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Any suggestions as to where I can get my hands on boot ROM's (or data files. I have access to an EPROM programmer) for use with an 11/73? A boot-ROM Qbus card would be nice too.. I'm trying to build up a new 11/73 (heh.. 'new' ;-) with an ex-uVAX BA213 chassis. (the original KA650 is in storage as a spare for my running machine) I have most of the stuff I need (anybody have a spare 4 Mbyte QBUS card??) and can re-use most of the QBUS cards from the uVAX (with an Emulex UC07 SCSI card! yeah!), but I don't have any boot ROM's or a ROM-card for the 11/73. The CPU card is a dual-wide version, so no on-board ROM's :-( So far my searches have turned up little or nothing in this area, but I hope that the combined brain-power here knows some addresses I can try.. Thanx! Bye, Arno, -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA60539 for pups-liszt; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:45:30 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu Feb 3 00:45:17 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA60535 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:45:22 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 9:45:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 9:45:17 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000202094517.25600527(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Qbus bootstrap board/ROMS? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Any suggestions as to where I can get my hands on boot ROM's (or >data files. I have access to an EPROM programmer) for use with an 11/73? >A boot-ROM Qbus card would be nice too.. [Later comment indicates a KDJ11-A...] If you don't mind a toggle-in (err, um, ODT-in) bootstrap, you can find a selection (some of them with disassemblies) at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ just click on "Bootstraps". If you really insist on rolling your own from scratch, you can burn these (modified if you want) into your own EPROM's. Chances are that if you find a Q-bus card that takes EPROM's it will already have a boot ROM in it. For more on what's out there, read Micronote #3 "Compatible Bootstraps for the LSI-11/73" and Micronote #15 "Q-Bus Hardware Bootstraps". If you don't have a printed set of Micronotes handy, you can click on the above link at metalab and then click on the Micronote index. >I have most of the stuff I need (anybody have a spare 4 Mbyte QBUS card??) and >can re-use most of the QBUS cards from the uVAX (with an Emulex UC07 >SCSI card! yeah!), but I don't have any boot ROM's or a ROM-card >for the 11/73. The UC07 has an onboard PDP-11 bootstrap you can enable. Why not just turn it on? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 3 months

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Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by Warren Toomey

In article by Mirian Crzig Lennox: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. > --Mirian Currently out of town. Still, it might be worth asking SCO for a discount! Does the license cover all of Solaris, or just the kernel?? Cheers, Warren

25 years, 3 months

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Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by emanuel stiebler

----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>; Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>; Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. I think, that linux is somehow an entry in the unix world ;-) After a while you notice, that *BSD is cleaner & more stable. > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. Look what happened to linux & *BSD in the last months/years. They adapting new technologies very fast ... > They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? Don't be "concerned", build in the stuff you're missing ;-) cheers, emanuel

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Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by John Rosenberg

I have written several device drivers (e.g., disk, DSP, DAT) for Solaris. It is the slowest OS since Multix. Solaris is buggy, albeit pretty darned stable. Interesting OS, but I'd stick by BSD (from a systems programmer type). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathon McKitrick" <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: "Greg Lehey" <grog(a)lemis.com> Cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>; "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; "FreeBSD Chat" <chat(a)freebsd.org> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i > believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... > > >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > > > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that > >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer > >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see > >what they think. > > Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net > seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp > connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed > that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running > now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed > difference. > > -=> jm <=- > > "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... > Revel in your time!" > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28243 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:24:36 +1100 (EST) >From "Jonathon McKitrick" <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sat Jan 29 00:24:19 2000 Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28238 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:24:25 +1100 (EST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12ECJw-000Fek-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:20 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA65406; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:19 GMT (envelope-from jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>, "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0001281418330.65317-100000(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are growing on the desktop, or in general? Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA28648 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:11:14 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Sat Jan 29 01:14:48 2000 Received: from mail08.gte-hosting.net ([209.238.3.57]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA28644 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:11:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from 209.238.157.134 (209.238.157.134) by mail08.gte-hosting.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 02704289; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:10:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004e01bf69a2$6c768bb0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: "Jonathon McKitrick" <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0001281418330.65317-100000(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:14:48 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>; Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>; Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes > open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus > linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are > growing on the desktop, or in general? > > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? > > -=> jm <=- > > "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." > > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA29086 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:05:50 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Sat Jan 29 02:04:35 2000 Received: from lostwithiel.cley.com (lostwithiel.cley.com [212.240.242.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA29081 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:05:40 +1100 (EST) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by lostwithiel.cley.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA28344; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:04:36 GMT X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I); VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14481.48659.525262.366785(a)cley.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:04:35 +0000 (GMT) To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <m3ln5b5u9p.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> <20000127145736.Q53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3ln5b5u9p.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk * Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my > impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long > as you don't share code with unlicensed people. But that's what you'd expect isn't it? Sun have some reasonable hope of continuing to make money from Solaris, and they obviously would like to retain some control, while SCO is unlikely to be regarding 6th-edition Unix as a big earner... --tim

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Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by Greg Lehey

Sun's releasing the source code to Solaris. Take a look at http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/index.html for more details. The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX licenses? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19237 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:08:01 +1100 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Thu Jan 27 11:00:57 2000 Received: from shelbyville.oai.com (IDENT:root@shelbyville.alcita.com [204.57.59.144] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19231 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:07:52 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by shelbyville.oai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA03298; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:00:59 -0500 From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> Original-Sender: lennox(a)alcita.com Organization: Alcita Technologies, Inc. Date: 26 Jan 2000 20:00:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:03:21 +1030" Message-ID: <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > licenses? After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. --Mirian Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19344 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:21:43 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Jan 27 11:23:07 2000 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:21:35 +1100 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id OAA98715; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:23:07 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:23:07 +1300 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127142307.A98693(a)begemot.org> References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com>; from Mirian Crzig Lennox on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. You're right, as long as patches do contain portions of Solaris. Everything that does so has to funnel trough Sun first, this can be done by putting it onto their secure server. The restriction is that you can't share it freely, everything must be visible to Sun. This is slightly different from the original educational license, which allowed sharing with peers bound by the same license conditions. I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for evaluation purposes. I don't think you could tune it easily to become as fast as a regular Linux or *BSD system. Apart from that, it certainly is the dinosaur solution of the decade. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19380 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:25:03 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 27 11:28:28 2000 Received: from mail08.gte-hosting.net ([209.238.3.57]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19369 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:24:55 +1100 (EST) Received: from 209.238.157.134 (209.238.157.134) by mail08.gte-hosting.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 01034407; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:24:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01ea01bf6865$d7844a20$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: "Mirian Crzig Lennox" <lennox(a)alcita.com>, "UNIX Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:28:28 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ---- Original Message ----- From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 18:00 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. They don't "prevent" it, it seems that it is always steered by/at SUN. >From the Webpage: > If you want to make your source code modifications available to other Solaris > source code licensees, you can do so by passing the changes back to Sun, and > Sun will then post them to a secure website that you and other registered users > may access. cheers, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19666 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:51:11 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 27 11:42:54 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19660 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:51:02 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA00523 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> > I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance is not anything one would write home about. The difference between SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner system. I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20265 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:28:36 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 14:27:36 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20254 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:27:45 +1100 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA17254; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127145736.Q53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 20:00:57 -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: >> >> The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but >> it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, >> is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX >> licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence > holders. I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20252 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:27 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 14:26:02 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20248 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:20 +1100 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA15877; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > system. That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the comparison could be very different. > I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before > this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system. Ditto. I have a CD somewhere that I just couldn't be bothered installing. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20540 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:03:31 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Jan 27 15:04:06 2000 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20536 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:03:23 +1100 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA00589; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:04:07 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:04:06 +1300 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > > system. > > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the > comparison could be very different. That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20597 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:09:02 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 15:08:20 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20592 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:08:38 +1100 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA44566; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:20 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127153820.T53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 18:04:06 +1300, Joerg Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >>>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> >>>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >>>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for >>> >>> Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its >>> "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance >>> is not anything one would write home about. The difference between >>> SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner >>> system. >> >> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large >> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the >> comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see what they think. For -chat: Sun have announced their intention to release the source code of Solaris [2.]8. We're discussing what this means. See http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/ for more details. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22317 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:40 +1100 (EST) >From Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Thu Jan 27 23:02:23 2000 Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22313 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:31 +1100 (EST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DoZ6-000JNg-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:24 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA48336; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:23 GMT (envelope-from jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>, "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127153820.T53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0001271255430.48240-100000(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see >what they think. Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed difference. -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22669 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:26:55 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jan 28 00:26:41 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA22665 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:26:46 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62093155AD; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id JAA12242; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127092641.A16017(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org>; from joerg(a)begemot.org on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300, Joerg B. Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> > > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > > > > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > > > system. > > > > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large > > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the > > comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com > gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? How can anyone know that it gains anything at all? To begin with, it's never *run* Solaris, so there's no way to draw any kind of meaningful comparison. The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of- the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes, for a lot of applications they lose. Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future. -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA23125 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:53:03 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Fri Jan 28 01:49:19 2000 Received: from mail08.gte-hosting.net ([209.238.3.57]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA23120 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:52:55 +1100 (EST) Received: from 209.238.157.134 (209.238.157.134) by mail08.gte-hosting.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 02004956 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:45:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002101bf68de$142f8430$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> <20000127092641.A16017(a)rek.tjls.com> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:49:19 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ----- Original Message ----- From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 07:26 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has > been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap > uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of- > the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than > Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to > turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but > that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor > performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are > as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes, > for a lot of applications they lose. > > Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far > faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a > single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor > box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There > is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is > to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and > will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future. Another thing to mention is also, that it is very easy to build your own kernel, exctly for your needs in Linux or *BSD. (removing all emulations/compatibility modes, ...) so you get a nice small/fast kernel excactly for your type of machine & workload. Don't think it's so easy on a sun. cheers, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA23440 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:02:33 +1100 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Fri Jan 28 02:55:30 2000 Received: from shelbyville.oai.com (IDENT:root@shelbyville.alcita.com [204.57.59.144] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA23436 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:02:23 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by shelbyville.oai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04656; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:55:30 -0500 From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> <20000127145736.Q53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> Original-Sender: lennox(a)alcita.com Organization: Alcita Technologies, Inc. Date: 27 Jan 2000 11:55:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030" Message-ID: <m3ln5b5u9p.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to > > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence > > holders. > > I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you > distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain > proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. Can I really? Any diffs are necessarily going to contain some of the original proprietary code. It depends on how aggressive Sun's lawyers are going to be about preventing any co-operative development of Solaris which is not mediated by Sun. From their website, it seems that Sun wants to be firmly in control of that process. This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long as you don't share code with unlicensed people. > > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less > > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. > > I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either > 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes. For practical purposes I agree, although I'm intrigued enough by the extremely modular design of Solaris to think it might be fun to spend some time playing with. -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist Invest in America -- buy a Congressman!

25 years, 3 months

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More Mail from Alexey: anohrt Unix for Pro350

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, I've received another e-mail from Alexey about some Y2K software for Venix and 2BSD. He's also given me a copy of a Russian UNIX called Demos. This is based on something like V7M, but Alexey says that its better than Venix. I've only got a tar file with bins & src, no disk images. Anyone with a pro350 or 380 interested in looking at this? Anyway, here's his latest e-mail and Date.c. Warren From: Alexey Chupahin <achupahi(a)uic.rsu.ru> Hello Warren, I just receive letter from John Rosenberg. He recommended me to resend date2 program. May be, my previous letter didn't go to you, but to John? I just try to resend you date2. The Date2 is good for first. Now I'm hacking RT-11 DIR (analogue ls in Unix :-), unlike to Unix one, DIR is very bad for Y2k.) program with system library SYSLIB.OBJ. When I finish it, I just try to test and fix BSD system. Unfortunatly, I haven't any documents described BSD library with utilites to see what subroutines/utilites to be needed to fix. May be, I can find it on the Web? But I have documentation for Inmos (Russian version7). I use it to see in first time. Unlike to poor (but very good!) standard Version 7, Russian one has 2 screen editors, including vi, and one Russian multiscreen edit RED, editor like small MSWord for Pro, screen menu-making/control programs and library, graphic, bisness programs and libraries for Pro. Unfortunatly, I have only documentation, no any distributive... When I finish BSD ( I hope to will finish it soon ) I'll just go to Unix7 and 6. I've got it from your site yet, Version 7 is booted Ok... May be, vi from BSD still works in Unix7? > Also, I am still not sure what to do about Demos. It's a pity that > you don't have a bootable disk image for it. Ok... Demos was very good-organized Unix for Pro-350/380... more good then Inmos, how I'm hear... Unfortunatly, I'm not rich student, but I wish to small used Alpha for a long time. I find ready to use Multia in Moscow for 450$. In Russia we have a nearly 18$ per month (Crysis :-( ) I have 360$ yet. May be, anybody can help me for 90$... ;-) regards, Alex

25 years, 3 months

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Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is?

by John Rosenberg

Yeah, that's the machine/software. Terrible software, if an honest attempt no doubt. Belongs in the Computer Museum. (It's such a pain to use that I would not bother, that is.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> To: <rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? > * rdkeys wrote: > > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was > > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like > > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory > > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of > > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info > > on that kind of a Masscomp machine? > > Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for > real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called > RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun > to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine > but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the > machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by > someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged > as some other make. > > I would run away, fast. > > --tim > >

25 years, 4 months

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Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is?

by Greg Lehey

On Friday, 21 January 2000 at 16:44:34 +0000, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > * rdkeys wrote: >> On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was >> listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like >> a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory >> digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of >> PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info >> on that kind of a Masscomp machine? > > Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for > real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called > RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun > to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine > but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the > machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by > someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged > as some other make. > > I would run away, fast. On the other hand, IIRC this was the machine which was the basis for the Egan/Teixeira (sp?) book on writing UNIX drivers. It might be amusing for that reason alone. If it's functional and you have the space, you probably won't regret the $2 you spend for it. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

25 years, 4 months

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Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info on that kind of a Masscomp machine? Thanks Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA42516 for pups-liszt; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:45:56 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Sat Jan 22 02:44:34 2000 Received: from lostwithiel.cley.com (lostwithiel.cley.com [212.240.242.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA42512 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:45:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by lostwithiel.cley.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA04637; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:44:35 GMT X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I); VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14472.36082.530024.331321(a)cley.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:44:34 +0000 (GMT) To: rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? In-Reply-To: <200001211607.LAA12512(a)uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <200001211607.LAA12512(a)uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk * rdkeys wrote: > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info > on that kind of a Masscomp machine? Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged as some other make. I would run away, fast. --tim

25 years, 4 months

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Re: Emulators

by Warren Toomey

In article by emanuel stiebler: > Hi, > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik, > apout, ...) > > What I'm looking for is something like: > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster > than a 11/73. > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel Here's my no-numbers-just-gut-feelings of the various PDP-11 emulators. John Wilson's Ersatz is probably the fastest; it's written in assembly code, and so gains a fair bit that way. Second would be the Begemot emulator. They've unrolled the instruction decode loop heavily, and that helps a lot. Bob Supnik's emulator would be the slowest of the three. However, it's still not that slow, may 1/3 the speed of Ersatz. Apout can't be compared to the above 3 emulators, because it doesn't emulate peripherals nor supervisor mode. User-mode instructions run at about the same speed as Supnik's emulator, but system calls are done by native code. The sole benchmark I have is: FreeBSD identifies my desktop box as Pentium II/Xeon/Celeron (348.93-MHz 686-class CPU). Using Apout, I can compile the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel in 4 minutes 15 seconds. I'll try building Supnik and Begemot and getting comparative results. Last comment: all the simulators have strengths & shortcomings, and that applies not just to ease of use but also to CPU, I/O performance etc. You really have to try them all & find the one that suits you. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA35744 for pups-liszt; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:44:42 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Fri Jan 21 12:45:24 2000 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA35740 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:44:20 +1100 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA71802; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:45:24 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:45:24 +1300 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, joerg(a)begemot.org, "Hartmut B. Brandt" <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de> Subject: Re: Emulators Message-ID: <20000121154524.A71774(a)begemot.org> References: <034201bf63ad$8ad414b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> <200001210216.NAA53527(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <200001210216.NAA53527(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by emanuel stiebler: > > Hi, > > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik, > > apout, ...) > > > > What I'm looking for is something like: > > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster > > than a 11/73. Us too! :-) The problem is that it doesn't scale that simple. Each and every instruction has the parsing overhead. Next comes execution overhead. You'll find that the parsing is pretty constant, no matter whether it is a NOP or some sophisticated MUL command. The execution speed varies heavily, very often it is alot faster than the original hardware. IO has seen a tremendous speedup, we can benefit here from todays hardware alot. Just remeber how long it took to get a prompt or echo when hitting the keyboard. As a result, the original feeling of the real machine is lost, very unfortunate. As a rough summary, simple commands do not improve (much), whereas everything complex speeds up with the emulator. Harti has done quite a bit of testing on different instructions and compared them to an LSI11/73 (KDJ11A). The emulator was run on a i486 at the time. Have a look at the p11 distribution, it should be in Tests somewhere. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA39169 for pups-liszt; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:08:07 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 4 months

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Recent PUPS Archive additions

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought I'd pass on details of what and where. Tim Shoppa has found & recovered the tapes from the following Usenix conferences: 1983, 1987, 1988 and 1989. Their contents are now in Applications/Shoppa_Tapes in the archive. Dennis Ritchie has sent in two DECtape images, s1-bits and s2-bits. s2-bits dates from 1972, and contains several 1st Edition binaries and the binaries of an early C compiler. s1-bits is part of a disk image, but I've been able to recover some of its contents: some application source in both assembly and C. It seems to date from early 1973. Both tapes are in Distributions/research/1972_stuff in the archive. By using the C compiler binaries on s2-bits, I've been able to recompile the two primeval C compilers whose source is in Applications/Early_C_Compilers and which are described by Dennis on his web page at http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/primevalC.html Most recently, Dennis has also unearthed the on-line manual pages for 3rd and 4th Edition UNIX. They are in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and Distributions/research/Dennis_v3, respectively. It still looks like all kernel code before 5th Edition is gone, except for the nsys kernel code in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and a few bits on paper that Dennis has. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA33093 for pups-liszt; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:31:59 +1100 (EST) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Fri Jan 21 03:25:39 2000 Received: from playground.lan (qmailr(a)androzani-1-151.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.95.25]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA33089 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:31:40 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 478 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Jan 2000 17:25:39 -0000 Date: 20 Jan 2000 17:25:39 -0000 Message-ID: <20000120172539.477.qmail(a)playground.lan> From: "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: CD-R request Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought > I'd pass on details of what and where. Could someone please burn a new snapshot of the archive for me? I'm happy to compensate you, of course. Thanks, Phil Garcia Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA

25 years, 4 months

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µVAX

by John Rosenberg

Please do not trash me on this one! I think that 4000 series µVAX is just a little more than I need. Would anyone care to swap this puppy for a table-top PDP-8 or PDP-11 of any sort? I have a working machine & keyboard; it wants your basic RGB with or without sync (i.e. sync on green). Whaddadya think? Happy new year! --JCR

25 years, 4 months

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Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix

by Joerg B. Micheel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:52:53PM -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: > As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing > MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: I believe the SEP RELAG-3 system (www.sep.de) is based on LSI-11, not sure it is written in assembler, though. Perhaps Torsten could tell ... Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19013 for pups-liszt; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:18:09 +1100 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Tue Jan 18 15:17:43 2000 Received: from chiton.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19009 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:17:48 +1100 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by chiton.ucsd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04673; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:17:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:17:43 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <200001180517.VAA04673(a)chiton.ucsd.edu> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 14 17:09 PST 2000 > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix > > >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: > >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > >>... > >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this > >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to > >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in > > >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know > >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, > >just in case anybody knows of it. > > As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing > MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: > > One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable > PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of > real Macro-11. You can find this at > > http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/un… > > The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from > Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The > full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11". > > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Let me toss in another possibility. Around that time (late 70's - early 80's) we (Marine Physical Lab) were running an RT-11 emulator on a couple of our PDP-11 Unix systems. Product of Human Computing Resources, as I remember. Once you can emulate RT-11, you can run all of its CUSPs: assembler, linker, Fortran, what have you. Assuming, of course, that you have appropriate licenses etc. We did it to get a reasonably capable Fortran compiler with our Unix. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu

25 years, 4 months

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Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix

by Warren Toomey

In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: > > Dear Warren, > > once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > an associated linker and the package offered also Fortran, though > I didnt't use the latter. As far as I remember, this port was > done at Harvard and distributed to some academic sites. I was > at the University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, at that time. > > I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this > macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to > prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in > computer science these days, at the University of Applied Sciences > here in Jena). > > Any ideas? Might there be copies in yours archive? I would like > to know before I go through the motions of getting teh SCO source > licence and all that... > > Thanks for your help! > Karl Kleine Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, just in case anybody knows of it. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03424 for pups-liszt; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:53:18 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jan 15 10:52:53 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03418 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:52:57 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000114195253.20200992(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also >>... >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, >just in case anybody knows of it. As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of real Macro-11. You can find this at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/un… The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11". Here's the man page - look at the "NOTES" section near the bottom for the history. M11(1) M11(1) NAME m11 - Macro-11 assembler for UNIX SYNOPSIS m11 [ option1 option2 ... ] file1 file2 ... filen DESCRIPTION M11 assembles the concatenation of the specified files (file1, etc.) and terminates when an ``.end'' statement is encountered. The resulting object file is usually named filen.obj (see below). If a file argument, filei does not contain a ``.'' in its name, the file filei.m11 will be sought before filei itself. Options, if desired, may appear anywhere in the command, and are chosen from the following list. All options are interpreted before any files are read. -ls Produce an assembly listing and place in filen.lst -lt Produce an assembly listing on the standard output. -fl If coupled with the -ls or -lt directives, makes the listing have a shortened format. It is short<AD> hand for -nl:seq:loc:bin:bex:me:meb:ttm:toc:sym. -uc Simulate an initial .dsabl lc directive. Force all characters in macro definitions to be upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in m11 compat<AD> able with the DEC Macro-11 assemblers. -um Force all characters in macro definitions to be upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in this release of m11 compatable with previous ver<AD> sions of m11. -de Make all option choices needed to make assembly mimic DEC Macro-11. Implies (inter alia) the -uc flag. This includes the Johns Hopkins asm assem<AD> bler. -ha Make all option choices needed to make assembly mimic earlier (Harvard) releases of m11. This implies the -um flag. Default .psect and .csect attributes are set up in the funny Harvard way. -mx Produce a listing of the source program as it appears after macro expansion. Macro calls, condi<AD> tional directives and so on appear in the listing as comments. Listing appears on standard output. No machine code is generated or listed. This option is meant to correspond to the -E or -P options of the C compiler cc(1). -my Like -mx, except that macro calls and conditional directives do not show up in the listing. -10 Generate an error whenever op codes not in the PDP-11 ``standard instruction set'' are encoun<AD> tered. Programmers writing for a PDP 11/10 can catch instructions illegal for that machine by using this argument. -dp:args The default attributes for a .psect or unnamed .csect are redefined, using the colon-separated list args of valid .psect attributes. -da:args The default attributes for an .asect are redefined. -dp:c The default attributes for a named .csect are rede<AD> fined. -li:arglist Simulate an initial .list arglist directive. All .list and .nlist directives in the program text which attempt to change the settings established with the -li flag will be ignored. -nl:arglist Like -li:arglist, but for the .nlist directive. -en:arglist Similarly, for the .enabl directive. -ds:arglist Similarly, but for the .dsabl directive. -cr:arglist Produces a cross-reference listing. If the -ls option is also included, the cross-reference list<AD> ing will follow the assembly listing in filen.lst. References which are tagged with the symbol # are definitions. References tagged with * are destuc<AD> tive references: the value of the symbol or vari<AD> able in question is changed. Arglist consists of colon-separated keywords from the following set. The keywords may be prefix abbreviated: sym All user-defined symbols are indexed. mac All macro names are indexed. per All uses of permanent symbols - op codes, directives, etc - are indexed. pse All psect names are indexed. For compata<AD> bility with the RT-11 CREF program, the argument cse is synonymous with pse. err All errors are indexed. reg All register uses are indexed. If no arglist is specified the default sym:mac:err is used. In the listing page and line numbers for uses of symbols are followed by a # sign if the symbol is defined and by a * sign if the symbol is modified. -lp Same as -ls, but also spools filen.lst for printing upon completion. -no No object file is produced. This is useful for syntax checking or list producing. -xs:n Allots nK words of extra space for symbol table and macro storage. NOTE: This option is currently inoperative: m11 automatically allots core for its tables as needed. -xx Debug flag: generate all kinds of wierd hack flack. -ns No symbol table is included in the object file (thus ddt knows of no symbols from this assembly). -sx Make the symbol table contain ``local symbols'' as well as ordinary symbols. -u Treat form feed characters as spaces. This will make m11's idea of line numbers coincide with the UNIX text editors. Macro-11 statements containing imbedded form feed characters will be parsed dif<AD> ferently when the -u flag is in effect. -na:file Override the convention of using last name as file name. Instead, use names file.obj and file.lst for object and listing files. NOTES This implementation of Macro-11 is a distant hand-me down from an old DEC Macro-11 modified at Harvard University in the early 1970's. It is grubby with smudges by Brent Byer, F. J. Howard, Bob Bowering, and Jim Reeds. It does not implement keyword arguments such as are described in section 7.3.6 of the DEC manual. The .enabl abs option does not work. Listing control is by default .list ttm. Unlike earlier editions of m11 at UCB and at Harvard, it does treat immediate constants of floating point opera<AD> tions correctly: see the last paragraph of section 6.4.2 on the middle of page 6-27 of the DEC manual. M11 has several directives not described in the DEC manual. See the New UCB M11 Manual. The default attributes for .psects are different from those described in the DEC man<AD> ual, but may be changed by the -dp flag. The .enabl glb feature is implemented: undefined symbols are taken as undefined global externals. FILES /usr/share/misc/sysmac.smlsystem macro library (for .mcall directive) filen.xrf intermediate cross-reference temporary file lpr(1) spooler /usr/ucb/macxrf cross-reference post-processor SEE ALSO PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual , Digital Equip<AD> ment Corp. Order No. AA-5075A-TC, August 1977. New UCB M11 Manual , notional document by Jim Reeds. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 4 months

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Re: New member

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

I just wrote: > [...] > -- > Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240 > Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA > JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247 > or +1-888-665-2460 x247 > E-mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154 Argh! Used the wrong sig file again! Here is the right one: -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com I guess I'll keep bumping into this one until I set up separate mail addresses for my two affiliations and subscribe to all lists from the right one... Sorry about that.

25 years, 4 months

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Re: New member

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an > auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? The right answer for you is the Quasijarus project. See its WWW page at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ The project has a mailing list to which I have already subscribed you. To post to the list, send to quasijarus(a)meson.jpsystems.com. If anyone else wants to subscribe, drop a line to quasijarus-request(a)meson.jpsystems.com. -- Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240 Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247 or +1-888-665-2460 x247 E-mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA86111 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:36:54 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 4 months

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More USENIX tapes recovered

by Tim Shoppa

On a recent expedition, I recovered some additional USENIX tapes: Usenix 83 Usenix 87 Usenix 88 Usenix 89 Now, none of these are as "classic" as the current Usenix tapes in the PUPS archive (by my searching, Usenix 77, 78, 79, 80, and 81.) Is there perhaps some other on-line archive out there that would be interested in copies of these tapes? My E-mails to various addresses on www.usenix.org so far have left me with the impression that they have no library of material older than 1993 and they have no interest in older material, though I strongly suspect that I'm talking with all the wrong people. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA85888 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:04:56 +1100 (EST) >From "John Rosenberg" <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> Thu Jan 13 02:03:04 2000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA85879 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:04:29 +1100 (EST) Received: from home (sdn-ar-001mabostP216.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.130]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27448; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:04:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003f01bf5d16$a0ccc020$c469fea9@home> From: "John Rosenberg" <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200001100540.QAA64928(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: New member Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:03:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Kind greetings, all. I am a new member of the Society, and have been delighted with the messages I have seen. Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? It was really a bargain I could not pass up; and I'm pretty sure that it is in entirely usable condition. (I still have to fully test it.) Suggesetions? I have no Web site to run, even if I did want to spend the money on the required infrastructure & maintenance. Much obliged in advance, and again, I am more than happy to have joined the Society. John Rosenberg 33 Pond Ave. #601 Brookline, MA 02445 617-277-7868 jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net (generally preferred) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA86073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:33:14 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 4 months

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Successful recompilation of last1120 C compiler

by Warren Toomey

Hi All, With a lot of help from Norman Wilson, Tim Shoppa and Dennis Ritchie himself, I've been able to modify my Apout emulator to run the 2nd Edition UNIX C compiler binaries. Using these, I've been able to recompile the `last1120' C compiler described by Dennis on his web page at: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html The new version of Apout, as always, is available at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ I've also put the source code to the last1120 C compiler in UnixBins/ Soren also pointed out a code problem stopping compilation on NetBSD, which has been fixed. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA74341 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 02:10:03 +1100 (EST) >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Tue Jan 11 01:08:33 2000 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA74301 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 02:09:41 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:08:33 -0800 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: I need help rewriting the 2.11BSD bootblock... To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Message-ID: <13514475029.13.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Problem as follows: I have a PDP-11/44, 2 DZ11s, a (currently nonfunctional) Emulex TC12 tape controller, a Pertec-type drive for that (known working), and a Viking UDT MSCP <> SCSI disk controller. Problem is, the Viking doesn't raise the RACMDI bit upon completion of a command because interrupts are off, so the boot loops forever. I tried taking out the test for RACMDI and just putting in delay loops, but that doesn't work. (The boot hangs later on trying to reset the controller. I dunno if the I/O went or not.) The controller and system are known good. I can put RT-11 back on the disk and it will run fine (excepting the date). I have a 200 meg SCSI-1 drive on there, it will get a 540 meg drive later. Anyway, I need to change the boot. I was told others had this problem too. I lack MSCP docs and don't really have the knowledge to do this. Can someone help me, or at least point me at someone who can? I'm more or less stuck for now. -------

25 years, 4 months

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Re: Viral Unix Compiler

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

The original publication of the Ken and Dennis Turing Award lectures was in August 1984 CACM. I gather there may have been some sort of repeat a few years ago, but my CACM collection, like my UNIX collection, is on the ancient side, so I don't know about that. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52219 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:12:11 +1100 (EST) >From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> Fri Jan 7 10:11:12 2000 Received: from spektr.eu.org (spektr.teracom.se [195.84.7.43]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA52213 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:11:17 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (jp@localhost) by spektr.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA64990 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:11:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jp(a)spektr.eu.org) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:11:12 +0100 (CET) From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RE: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <5AE253C4A378D011A0520000F830A87D5D26AC(a)sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz> Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10001070108050.64922-100000(a)spektr.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Grant Maizels wrote: > > >> Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, > >> especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common > >> cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. > > > Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM > > digital library and I can find it that way. > > > > Thanx! > > > > Bye, Arno. > > > > The URL is http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ so I suppose it is September > 1995. > > Grant Maizels > grant(a)maizels.nu If you check the first line on that web page, you'll notice that it says: "Reprinted from Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984, pp. 761-763. Copyright © 1984, Association for Computing Machinery, Inc." So I'll guess the original print date was August 8 1984. -- Jörgen Pehrson jp(a)spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "Bill Gates and Richard Stallman Meet in Airport; Thousands Killed in Resulting Explosion. News at 11." Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA53194 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:59:01 +1100 (EST) >From Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> Fri Jan 7 13:59:23 2000 Received: from sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz (fwuser(a)sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz [203.14.179.170]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA53190 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:58:42 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <5AE253C4A378D011A0520000F830A87D5D26B1(a)sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz> From: Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> To: "'Jorgen Pehrson'" <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RE: Viral Unix Compiler Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:59:23 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id OAA53191 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Oops that was a bit careless of me. Grant -----Original Message----- From: Jorgen Pehrson [mailto:jp@spektr.eu.org] Sent: Friday, 7 January 2000 11:11 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RE: Viral Unix Compiler On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Grant Maizels wrote: > > >> Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, > >> especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common > >> cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. > > > Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM > > digital library and I can find it that way. > > > > Thanx! > > > > Bye, Arno. > > > > The URL is http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ so I suppose it is September > 1995. > > Grant Maizels > grant(a)maizels.nu If you check the first line on that web page, you'll notice that it says: "Reprinted from Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984, pp. 761-763. Copyright © 1984, Association for Computing Machinery, Inc." So I'll guess the original print date was August 8 1984. -- Jörgen Pehrson jp(a)spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "Bill Gates and Richard Stallman Meet in Airport; Thousands Killed in Resulting Explosion. News at 11." Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA54308 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:07:40 +1100 (EST) >From Jorgen Pehrson [mailto:jp@spektr.eu.org] Fri Jan 7 18:07:03 2000 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA54304 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:07:19 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com (bdc(a)world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA07928 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 03:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bdc@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01227 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 03:07:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:07:03 -0800 From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001060935.UAA48295(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.04.10001062352070.9097-100000(a)world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: [...] > Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, especially for those who think that Open Source is a > cure for the common cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or > 1980s. Well, I think the whole basis for Richard Stallman's formation of the FSF and the GNU project during the 1980's was to keep alive the inherently "Open Source" nature of the software created during preceding decades. I hope not many people actually believe that Open Source is new concept. My personal take on Stallman is that he's a little whacked, but I do respect him incredibly for the work he's done with through the FSF. I think the industry could very easily have gone the Shareware route of the PC world had the GNU project, and eventually Linux, not entered the scene. It's possible we'd still have been okay with Linux once FreeBSD and NetBSD became a reality, but I believe Linux's early appearance struck just at exactly the right moment -- just when the web was being born. There's an immense amount of work ahead, but at least we're maintaining our history... and hopefully some people are learning from it. -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- It is good that the world has Internet, for the world can see living math done from the pouring of the concrete foundation all the way up to where the beautiful pictures are hung on the wall and the microwave is warming up cheese burritos. -- Archimedes Plutonium, 1995

25 years, 4 months

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Re: Viral Unix Compiler

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.) Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust, but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers and assemblers and the operating system. Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too, especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48359 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:36 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 6 19:45:17 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA48355 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id UAA35060 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:17 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200001060945.UAA35060(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: CVS Repository for UNIX In-Reply-To: <200001060909.UAA48145(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 6, 2000 4: 8:52 am" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:17 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure > copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions > or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important > to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we > should be doing. I agree completely. > Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though > that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to > extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original > distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future > archaeologists have the right thing to study. With CVS you can tag releases, and so you can extract back from a known release. You can have branches at various points too, and also merge branches. However, it really needs a CVS guru to make it work properly. And, of course, when we get to BSD, we should bring the existing SCCS deltas into the CVS tree, too. The CVS idea can be someone else's project :-) Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA49218 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:17:14 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu Jan 6 23:16:41 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA49214 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:16:54 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 8:16:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 8:16:41 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000106081641.202001e1(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system >was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in >login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs >were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted >as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when >compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove >the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.) > >Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever >shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since >the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust, >but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's >going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers >and assemblers and the operating system. Perhaps Ken went even further and distributed buggered binaries of 'od' as well (along with a 'cc' patch to re-insert the 'od' hole), so those attempting to hand disassemble the code to *check* for the existence of the security hole wouldn't find it. The 'cc+login' hole is nice, sweet, and self-consistent. Attempting to patch all the other tools to make it impossible to find these holes sounds incredibly more complicated. Maybe it was just the way Ken so clearly presented the "how to" lesson that makes anything I try to add onto it sound incredibly awkward. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA49497 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:25:03 +1100 (EST) >From John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> Fri Jan 7 00:23:43 2000 Received: from threedee.com (mail.threedee.com [209.83.65.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA49487 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:24:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from winnie (winnie [192.198.5.13]) by threedee.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA27249 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:24:27 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106082343.01638ec0@pc> X-Sender: jfoust@pc X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:23:43 -0600 To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <000106081641.202001e1(a)trailing-edge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Has it ever been independently established that this viral version of the compiler ever actually existed, or was this just a parable about viral code? - John

25 years, 4 months

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revisionism

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Tim Shoppa: This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we should be doing. There's nothing wrong with keeping fixed-up versions too, but but they should be clearly distinguished from the historic originals. (Perhaps we could label them `ancient' and `primary platform'?) Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future archaeologists have the right thing to study. Norman Wilson 684 Crawford Street, Toronto (Formerly 696 Crawford Street before a renumbering in the 1950s; I keep thinking of putting the old number up too.) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48301 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:35:35 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 4 months

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Re: Viral Unix Compiler

by Warren Toomey

In article by Tim Shoppa: > This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes > like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or > should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of > those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) I'd agree to both. Mind you, once you start patching, where do you stop? We could bring V6 up to being POSIX compatible with an ANSI C compiler :-) Seriously, at one stage I did think of trying to check-in every version of UNIX we have into a single CVS repository. Problem is, files have moved around, and I want to leave gaps just in case we ever get the missing versions. > As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C > compiler recognize when it was recompiling [/bin/login] and put a back > door in for the developers? I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if the article is lying around somewhere. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA41128 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:45:45 +1100 (EST) >From Andru Luvisi <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu> Thu Jan 6 07:01:27 2000 Received: from andru.sonoma.edu (andru.sonoma.edu [130.157.3.226]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA41124 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:45:21 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 8022 invoked by uid 501); 5 Jan 2000 21:01:27 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs(a)127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Jan 2000 21:01:27 -0000 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:01:27 -0800 (PST) From: Andru Luvisi <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001052035.HAA24359(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.03.10001051300300.7685-100000(a)andru.sonoma.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: [snip] > I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out > of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, > this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if > the article is lying around somewhere. http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ Andru -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Andru Luvisi | http://libweb.sonoma.edu/ | | Programmer/Analyst | Library Resources Online | | Ruben Salazar Library |-----------------------------------------| | Sonoma State University | http://www.belleprovence.com/ | | luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu | Textile imports from Provence, France | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41348 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:14:17 +1100 (EST) >From "J. Capp" <jcapp(a)wilkes.kp.net> Thu Jan 6 07:33:48 2000 Received: from wilkes.kp.net (wilkes.kp.net [207.44.21.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA41344 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:13:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (jcapp@localhost) by wilkes.kp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11665; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:33:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:33:48 -0500 (EST) From: "J. Capp" <jcapp(a)wilkes.kp.net> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001052035.HAA24359(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.10001051618210.10423-100000(a)wilkes.kp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out > of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, > this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if > the article is lying around somewhere. > Ken's speech "Reflections on Trusting Trust", was published in the Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984. It describes this "trojan horse" in great detail. But I do believe from this article that it was an example of what could be done, not necessarily something that was ever released into the hands of the public. Jim Capp Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48149 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:09:45 +1100 (EST)

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Re: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Ulcers

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Michael Sokolov grumbled: > Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect > ancient UNIX: ^^^^^^^ Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/ Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform. Thank you. If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free not to wear it. I certainly didn't have `Kernighan/Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX' in mind; I rarely do, as I am much more interested in ancient systems. Chuckling all the way to the rest home, Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA37886 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:13:04 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Jan 5 19:33:12 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA37882 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:12:42 +1100 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id UAA60952; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:03:12 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:03:12 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <20000105200311.Y30038(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <200001041145.WAA32766(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200001041145.WAA32766(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: > Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect > ancient UNIX: > - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, > because two-digit input. I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the year. Which release were you using? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA38658 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:03:32 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 5 23:23:18 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA38654 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:03:11 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 8:23:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 8:23:18 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: grog(a)lemis.com CC: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000105082318.202000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg wrote: >On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: >> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect >> ancient UNIX: >> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, >> because two-digit input. >I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the >year. Which release were you using? That's because I did the fix for 2.11BSD back when I was Y2K-ing all my PDP-11 sources a few years ago, and Steven incorporated it into the distribution. The fix was quick and dirty, but works fine because Unix effectively has an expiration date of 2038 when the signed 32-bit time word goes negative, so it's easy enough to window the centuries. This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back door in for the developers? And of course the C compiler recognized when it was recompiling itself and made sure that the this recognition code was also inserted. As I understand it, the distributed sources never had this security hole in them, only the binaries, but of course the binaries self-perpetuated the security hole even if you recompiled them. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39019 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:30:17 +1100 (EST) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Thu Jan 6 00:46:13 2000 Received: from playground.lan (qmailr(a)minbar-1-131.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA39006 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:29:49 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 451 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Jan 2000 14:46:13 -0000 Date: 5 Jan 2000 14:46:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20000105144613.450.qmail(a)playground.lan> From: "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> To: grog(a)lemis.com, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes > like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or > should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of > those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) Ideally, both. Perhaps boot images with these fixes should be available, yes, but so should the originals. > As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C > compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back > door in for the developers? Good question! I don't know, but it was actually the login command...

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Re: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Here's Brian Kernighan's note on troff and Y2K: in n1.c, numtab[YR] is set to localtime()->tm_year, which is the number of years since 1900. in 2000, this will contain 100. the troff manual says that \n(yr contains "the last two digits of the current year", but nowhere in the code is this set, and the year can be set to anything. so it's really "the current year minus 1900". the manual and the code are inconsistent, which is always a problem. in any case, in most installations troff and nroff are legacy systems for which there is no source code, so changing them is not feasible. furthermore, any change to troff is likely to require changes in macro packages anyway, and may cause silent errors by conflicting with current behavior or colliding with previously unused names. fortunately, it seems straightforward to fix the macro packages that are the most likely sources of problem; individual macro packages will have to be fixed by individuals. grepping for "yr" will find most trouble spots. typical macros packages use \n(yr in two ways. one is ds ]W (printed \n(mo/\n(dy/\n(yr) which assumes that the year is 2 digits and to be printed as 2 digits. presumably the first day of 2000 is to be printed as 1/1/00, so the fix here is to set register yr to 2 digits .nr yr \n(yr%100 either once at the beginning (under the assumption that the year isn't changed by the macro package) or each time \n(yr is going to be used (providing locality at the price of more changes). the other common usage is .ds ]W \*(]m \n(dy, 19\n(yr the easiest way to fix this is to add, at the beginning again, .nr yr 1900+\n(yr and change all subsequent uses from 19\n(yr to \n(yr. any macro package that uses both of these constructions will need a bit more care to unify things; the easiest fix is likely to be two registers, one with the full year and one with the last two digits. .nr YR 1900+\n(yr \" 4-digit year .nr yr \n(yr%100 \" last two digits this will break code that happened to use this register name. some macro packages (e.g., -mm) try to be clever about dates, and include explicit tests to determine whether a user-provided date has 2 or 4 digits, and then adjust by 1900; this is another case that has to be fiddled by hand. any approach that changes register yr at the beginning fails if the year is set explicitly later on, as it might be by some of the date macros in -ms and -mm. this still seems like the best fix, however. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35876 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:35:21 +1100 (EST)

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200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect ancient UNIX: - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, because two-digit input. - at and atrun: commands are stored in the spooling directory with names of the form YY.DDD.HHMM.xx, where xx is a unique number. This one is trickier to fix, because the filename is already exactly 14 characters, so there's no room for expansion. (On V10, I just rewrote the programs to use a simple UNIX time expressed as a decimal number. A simpler solution might be to print the year in hex.) - Perhaps least consequential and most amusing: nroff and troff store the year in a number register. The manual says it contains `the last two digits of the year,' and many macro packages assume that is true, but the truth is that it contains (year-1900), the same as tm_year. So, for example, when I ran man on New Year's Day, I was told that the manual page had been printed on 1/1/100. I was about to fix the various troff macro packages when I noticed that the manual implied that I shouldn't. I asked Brian Kernighan for an opinion (since the code and the manual were both last touched by him); he thinks the best view is that the manual is just wrong and the macro packages should be fixed. \n(yr is a read-write register, so `.nr yr \n(yr+1900' is probably the easiest fix, though Brian points out that it's not always the right one (maybe you really wanted a two-digit year). If anyone is interested I can pass along a more detailed note from Brian. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA33653 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 02:17:48 +1100 (EST)

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New Version of Apout PDP-11 Emulator

by Warren Toomey

Welcome back to all the PUPS mailing list members! They've finally turned our router back on here, so now the list server Minnie is no longer deaf. Over the past few weeks I've been working on my Apout simulator, with help from Tim Shoppa, and it now runs binaries from 1st Edition UNIX. The announcement is below; details of how to obtain the source, and some UNIX binaries, are also given. Hope you all had a good festive break, and best wishes for the New Year. Cheers, Warren Apout -- Simulate PDP-11 Unix a.out binaries Version 2.3 Alpha Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au January 2000 Introduction ------------ This program is a user-level simulator for UNIX a.out binaries. Binaries for V1, V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD can be run with this simulator. The user-mode PDP-11 instructions are simulated, and TRAP instructions are emulated by calling equivalent native-mode system calls. The advantages of an a.out simulator over a full-blown PDP-11 simulator are: + system calls can be done natively, thus speeding up execution + the simulator is less of a CPU-hog than a full-blown PDP-11 simulator + you don't need a simulated operating system or a simulated file system Apout can be obtained via anonymous ftp at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au in the directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout. The directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/UnixBins contains tar archives of a.out binaries from several versions of UNIX. Status ------ The program is now at release 2.3 Alpha1. Most of the binaries from V5, V6 and V7 run fine. All of the V5/V6/V7 system calls are caught, but some are ignored and some generate EPERM errors. The V1, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD environments are still under construction: see the file LIMITATIONS for details. Finally, the simulator won't run on a big-endian machine. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29223 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:43:10 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 4 10:08:05 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29219 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:42:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA03372 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:08:05 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200001040008.LAA03372(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: No Answer to `Unix Mallet' Mystery To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:08:05 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, I just received this e-mail from Keith Bostic, in reply to a strange question which was discussed on this mailing list months (years?) ago. Read on..... ----- Forwarded message from Keith Bostic ----- Hi, Warren, I'm digging out some old email, and found the following: > [Chris] While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer > mentions: > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954 > Could someone please explain the joke. :) > > [Warren] I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11. According to the SCCS records on > Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, > /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: > date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic > Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS. > > The earliest calendar.computer files I can find, apart from the > SCCS record, are: > > 4bsd/43reno.vax/src.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28 > 4bsd/net2/net2.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28 > 4bsd/43reno.vax/usr.tar, calendar.computer dated 1990/07/29 > > so the finger of suspicion does point at Keith Bostic. I think I'm just the one that checked it in... around that time I went through the source tree and committed everything into SCCS, and, my bet is that those files weren't already under SCCS. I also broke the single calendar file up into a bunch of different files as part of re-writing calendar(1) to make it AT&T free. You might want to look in early releases for a "calendar" source file, and not "calendar.computer" (although I'm not positive it was named "calendar", I'm pretty sure that I broke an original file up into multiple files, so I created the "calendar.computer" file and filled it with stuff from an already existing file). > So can you shed any light on this interesting entry in calendar.computer, > was it a private joke, and were you the perpertrator? Not me. Did you ever figure out where the line came from? --keith ----- End of forwarded message from Keith Bostic ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29790 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:15:39 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 4 11:40:19 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29784 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:15:19 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA04392 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:40:19 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200001040140.MAA04392(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: 200 Ancient UNIX Licenses To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:40:19 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Just a note to say that I have received SCO Ancient UNIX licenses up to AU-201 in the mail today. Another note: a bug in the date libraries in 5th and 6th Edition Unix prevents ctime() from properly displaying dates after November 1999. I haven't bothered to find/fix it yet. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA32773 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:45:57 +1100 (EST)

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Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94

by Johnny Billquist

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> > > > > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just > > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked > > > Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences > on the tape drive being junked. Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-) > > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??) > > In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but > I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get > a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs. Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two DEUNAs lying around). Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA70763 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:31:16 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Dec 18 02:30:33 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA70695 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:31:05 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15850; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:30:35 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:30:33 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 In-Reply-To: <199912142119.NAA06698(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217172822.14918E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > > > From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999 > > this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the > > RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee.. > > Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe) RA82: 622 MB RA92: 1.2GB All with reservations about my memory going bad... :-) > > Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or > > a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those.. > > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer > the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly). I > do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though. TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA73336 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 05:38:00 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Dec 18 04:26:03 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA73328 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 05:37:27 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA04099 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:26:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:26:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199912171826.KAA04099(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > RA82: 622 MB > RA92: 1.2GB That sounds a little small. AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on the PDP-11 The RA90 was ~1.2GB: :pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024: and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB: :pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024: > > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer > > TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a > VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago. Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only? Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA73337 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 05:38:01 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Dec 18 04:22:39 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA73332 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 05:37:31 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA04095 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:22:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:22:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199912171822.KAA04095(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-) An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less noise from what I have seen. > Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is > faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the > DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two > DEUNAs lying around). I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA. The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the DELUA is better than the DEUNA. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA73620 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 06:10:57 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Dec 18 05:10:31 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA73616 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 06:10:46 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20430; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:10:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:10:31 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 In-Reply-To: <199912171822.KAA04095(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217200602.16096F-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > > Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-) > > An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less > noise from what I have seen. Well, I'm in love with Unibus systems... I have an 11/84 at home, and of course, there is always Magica, which is an 11/70... :-) (And then we have Knase, which is our 11/70 with 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, both systems are powered off right now because of cooling problems. :-( > > Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is > > faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the > > DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two > > DEUNAs lying around). > > I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to > lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA. > The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the > DELUA is better than the DEUNA. I don't think the DEUNA has that bug which riddles the DEQNA. Also, the DEUNA/DELUA loads some microcode when I start using them, this is running RSX. That microcode is located on the RSX system. Beats me what it is for, or anything. Worse (parhaps) is that the device driver for the DEUNA/DELUA don't work with any Q-bus models, which means I don't have a driver for Q-bus machines... Anybody know anything more about this? I really don't care to dig around the sources here, and also, I don't have the sources to all components. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA73644 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 06:13:06 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Dec 18 05:12:45 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA73639 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 06:12:56 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20448; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:12:46 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:12:45 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 In-Reply-To: <199912171826.KAA04099(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217201053.16096G-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > > RA82: 622 MB > > RA92: 1.2GB > > That sounds a little small. AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on > the PDP-11 > > The RA90 was ~1.2GB: > > :pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024: > > and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB: > > :pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024: You got me. :-) > > > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer > > > > TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a > > VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago. > > Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only? Yes, Q-bus only. When the TK70 came out, I guess DEC had decided to stop development of Unibus peripherials. I very much doubt they sold that many TUK50, or RUX50 controllers. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

25 years, 5 months

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Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94

by Arno Griffioen

> The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it > will promptly wrap back around to 1990. You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset' > (or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date, > but at power on it'll reset back to 1990. No prob.. If I get a SLIP link up and running I'll just suck down the right date from an NTP server on my net which is synchronized to a radio clock. Heck, I could just hook up a clock receiver to the machine directly! I hardly ever bother to set hardware clocks in my machines anymore. The batteries in my VAX for the clock and stuff ran out quite a while ago, but no problem either.. > See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering > code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94 > firmware. Any idea about version numbers I could check? This machine was used until pretty recently in a production environment and maintained pretty well on the hardware/firmware level. I don't think it was decomissioned because of Y2K, but because they were told that they could provide a 'better' service with a Micro$oft solution. Last thing I heard is that the new solution is sorta falling apart all over the place.. Not surprising to me, but they're not getting this machine back! :-) Bye, Arno. -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25 years, 5 months

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Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999 > The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place. Nice. Having the "toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too. > this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the > RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee.. Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe) > otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller > I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive. As I was reminded a short time ago - don't put a Qbus board into a Unibus machine (or the other way around) :-) > Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That > should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's > just 9600) SL/IP yes but 2.11 predates PPP and I am not sure there is room in the kernel/networking for PPP (which is a much more complex protocol). I've run SL/IP just fine - and if you have the (fairly) recent updates to enable hardware flowcontrol you can run considerably faster than 9600 and not worry about dropped characters or truncated packets. > Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to > run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly) Ah, yes indeed! As long as the kernel's idea of the drive size is less than what the actual disk image is then you should not have any problems - i.e. if you put an RA60 sized image on an RA92 it should work (at least well enough to configure the 2nd drive correctly). Obviously the other way around would not work ;) > Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or > a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those.. A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly). I do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though. An inexpensive TS05 would be a real nice thing to have about now ;) Steve Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA53230 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:56:14 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Dec 15 07:55:41 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA53226 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:56:05 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:55:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:55:41 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com CC: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <991214165541.246000ac(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999 >> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in > Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place. Nice. Having the > "toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too. As long as you've updated to the Y2K-compliant KDJ11-E firmware, that is. The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it will promptly wrap back around to 1990. You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset' (or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date, but at power on it'll reset back to 1990. See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94 firmware. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 5 months

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Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94

by Tim Shoppa

>> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I >> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives >> or installing UNIX from it.. > No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb > it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less > a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that. Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated TU58's. Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA46635 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:06:49 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Dec 14 06:56:53 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA46631 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:06:41 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA18516 for PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:56:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:56:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199912132056.MAA18516(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > > Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated > TU58's. Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's". That wasn't too bad. You should try Das Rheingold on 78's :) Steve Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA49123 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:28:33 +1100 (EST) >From Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Tue Dec 14 17:28:16 1999 Received: from superluminal.usn.nl (root(a)superluminal.usn.nl [194.183.103.23]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA49119 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:28:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from lost.usn.nl (root(a)lost.usn.nl [194.183.103.34]) by superluminal.usn.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA21873; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:28:16 +0100 From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Received: (from arno@localhost) by lost.usn.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA07390; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:28:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199912140728.IAA07390(a)lost.usn.nl> Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 In-Reply-To: <199912131935.LAA18041(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Dec 13, 1999 11:35:35 am" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:28:16 +0100 (CET) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL48 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just > > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked > > > Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences > on the tape drive being junked. The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee.. Pity I have little UNIBUS stuff.. Most of my other DEC hardware is QBUS based, otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive. The machine itself seems to work fine (and seems to be pretty much 'lodaded'). Runs RSX-11 now (at least a partial setup as I wasn't able to get all drives) > > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??) > > In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but > I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get > a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs. Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's just 9600) > RP06 or 7. Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock. > DD that image to an RA92 and hoo that up to the /94. Worth a shot.. > The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not > be exactly right for the last partition. Experimenting with the > standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may > be needed. If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a > rebuild of the freelist will be needed. Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly) > No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb > it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less > a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that. OK. Got that. Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those.. I have little or no 9-track reel tape stuff :-) Thanx for the help! Bye, Arno. -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25 years, 5 months

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Installing UNIX on an 11/94

by Arno Griffioen

OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked along the way. No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??) What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast? I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94 off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet.. I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives or installing UNIX from it.. I don't have any other UNIBUS cards, so I can't plug my TK70 into the 11/94.. Any thoughts on the subject are welcome.. Bye, Arno. -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA46129 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:36:50 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Dec 14 05:35:35 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA46125 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:36:40 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA18041 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:35:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:35:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199912131935.LAA18041(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> > > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences on the tape drive being junked. > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??) In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs. > What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast? > > I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw > filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94 > off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet.. Yes, it should be possible. You will need to run one of the emulators (either Bob Supnik's or Willi Begemot's "P11"). The tricky part will be in the geometry/size of the disk image. The emulators do not know about MSCP drives so you will have to go thru the bootstrap process using an SMD ('xp' driver) drive and pretend you have a RP06 or 7. Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock. DD that image to an RA92 and hoo that up to the /94. The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not be exactly right for the last partition. Experimenting with the standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may be needed. If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a rebuild of the freelist will be needed. Experimentation - I think it'd take a few tries to get it right ;) > I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I > didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives > or installing UNIX from it.. No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

25 years, 5 months

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Temporary Mail List Suspension

by Warren Toomey

[ apologies to those who receive this e-mail multiple times ] This e-mail is being sent to you via a mailing list run on the machine minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. I've been informed that our entire network is going to be shut down from Friday 24 December until Monday 3 January 2000. In other words, all services on Minnie (web, ftp, CGI scripts, this mailing list) will be temporarily unavailable during this period. Minnie, as always, will be sitting here under my desk, waiting for someone to talk to her. So as soon as the routers come back up, Minnie will reappear. I'll take this opportunity to wish everybody a happy festive season; take it safe on the roads, don't go anywhere near the CBD of Sydney on New Year's Eve, and we'll catch you again in 2000, assuming your Microsloth Windoze box isn't infected with gazillions of viruses :-) Cheers all, Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au

25 years, 5 months

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Re: 2.11BSD boot looping

by Daniel A. Seagraves

[Snip instructions for installing a bootstrap] No, I got the installation of the bootstrap just fine. I was told that the bootstrap for MSCP disks uses a bug in the UDA50 that some 3rd party controllers don't exhibit. (In my case, I have a Viking UDT SCSI controller) I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work. I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on the VAX 750 to get it's job done. I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the bootstrap to make it work on my machine. ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22820 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:51:06 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Dec 10 10:50:12 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22816 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:50:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA18487 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:50:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:50:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199912100050.QAA18487(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: 2.11BSD boot looping Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> > I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the > bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work. Hmmm, ok - that wasn't clear. It read as if the documentation was needed to install a new/different bootblock. > I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on > the VAX 750 to get it's job done. Yep - same in 4BSD too, I remember thinking at one time "ah, I'll just use the 4BSD bootcode as a guide" only to find out it was calling into the ROMs. > I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the > bootstrap to make it work on my machine. IF the bug is what has been suspected so far then presenting a vector to the controller during the 4 step init process is what needs to be done. Looking at the standalone MSCP driver (/sys/pdpstand/ra.c) which has the logic to specify a vector even though interrupts are not use the logic is: if (rainit[ctlr] == 0) { again: raaddr->raip = 0; if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP1, 1)) goto again; raaddr->rasa = RA_ERR | (0154/4); if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP2, 2)) goto again; iomapadr(&racom->ra_ca.ca_ringbase, &bae, &lo16); raaddr->rasa = lo16; if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP3, 3)) goto again; raaddr->rasa = bae; if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP4, 4)) goto again; raaddr->rasa = RA_GO; if (racmd(M_OP_STCON, io) < 0) { printf("%s STCON err\n", devname(io)); return(-1); } rainit[ctlr] = 1; } Thus it is only done on 'first open'. It is in step 1 that the vector divided by 4 needs to be "OR"'d into the work presented to the controller. The ra boot block code (/sys/mdec/rauboot.s) has a loop: / / RA initialize controller / mov $RASTEP1,r0 mov raip,r1 clr (r1)+ / go through controller init seq. mov $icons,r2 1: bit r0,(r1) beq 1b ---->>>> mov (r2)+,(r1) asl r0 bpl 1b mov $ra+RARSPREF,*$ra+RARSPL / set controller characteristics mov $ra+RACMDREF,*$ra+RACMDL mov $RASTCON,r0 jsr pc,racmd mov unit,*$ra+RAUNIT / bring boot unit online mov $RAONLIN,r0 jsr pc,racmd ... I suspect that the loop at ---->>> needs to be modified to do something special for step 1. Steve

25 years, 5 months

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Re: 2.11BSD boot looping

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> > For what it's worth, this does sound suspiciously like what the 4.3 > boot code did with the Viking. As far as I can remember, there is a > flag in one of the UDA50 registers that is set to 1 one the device > interrupts. The 4.3 boot code runs the UDA50 with interrupts disabled, Actually it's in the response packet rather than a UDA 'register' but yep - that sounds very familiar. > but polls this flag to find out when the controller has finished a > command. > On the UDA50, even if interrupts are disabled, this flag gets set. On > the viking, it doesn't. I can't remember the exact change I made, but I At least one of the changes was to give the MSCP adaptor a vector during the 3 or 4 step init process. Normally 4.3/2.11 didn't bother to give a vector since interrupts were disabled. It doesn't reall matter what the vector is as long as it's non zero - the value used was 0154 (primary/1st MSCP adaptor). Some other 3rd party adaptors (can't recall if it was Dilog or Emulex or ...) had the same problem. > "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > > > > It's looping around at 157702. > > > > 157702 contains 001776 Hmmm, I wonder if that's in the bootblock code or the actual boot program. The standalone MSCP driver in 2.11 has the "give a vector to the adaptor" change so my guess is that the bootblock is where the looping is happening. The bootbock (rauboot.s from /sys/mdec) relocates itself to 0160000-01000 or 0157000 so a loop at 0157702 would be where the 'racmd:' routine is looping waiting for a command to complete (or the adaptor to come ready the first time). I thought the same "give a vector" change had been made to rauboot.s but it would appear that's not the case ;-( Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA59602 for pups-liszt; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:59:41 +1100 (EST) >From Martin Crehan <mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net> Wed Dec 1 01:59:21 1999 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA59598 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:59:32 +1100 (EST) Received: from gort (1Cust124.tnt2.covina.ca.da.uu.net [63.27.25.124]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA18132 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:59:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:59:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911301559.HAA18132(a)gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Martin Crehan <mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net> Subject: Salon.com article on John Lions book Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk The site Salon.com has an article: http://www.Salon1999.com/tech/feature/1999/11/30/lions/index.html on John Lions' book about Sixth Edition Unix, written by from a non-computer geek's viewpoint. Martin Crehan

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Re: 2.11BSD boot looping

by James Lothian

For what it's worth, this does sound suspiciously like what the 4.3 boot code did with the Viking. As far as I can remember, there is a flag in one of the UDA50 registers that is set to 1 one the device interrupts. The 4.3 boot code runs the UDA50 with interrupts disabled, but polls this flag to find out when the controller has finished a command. On the UDA50, even if interrupts are disabled, this flag gets set. On the viking, it doesn't. I can't remember the exact change I made, but I got it from the sources for some later version of 4.3, which I probably found on the internet. I'll try firing the beast up tonight, and see if I can figure out what I did. My hacked around version of UW 4.3+NFS that Michael Sokolov uploaded to PUPS should also contain this modification. Somebody could try comparing my version to the original UW version -- they're both in the archive, as far as I know. James "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > > It's looping around at 157702. > > 157702 contains 001776 > > -------

25 years, 5 months

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Re: 2.11BSD

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Did the version of 2.11BSD you're working from have disklabel support in > the hk driver? Disklabel support there was added recently (where "recent" > = 2 years ago). And even then the disklabel changes to the HK (rk06/7) driver have not been actually tested - the site that was going to do that had equipment failures and that combined with the lack of interest in or curiosity about PDP-11s resulted the the entire 11 collection being scrapped. So, I went and make the changes anyhow and they "should work" since adding disklabel support to a driver is mostly a boilerplate type of activity but there's always the chance that an error crept in. Disklabel support for the XP (rp03/4/5/6/7) driver is known to work well. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40359 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:03:50 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Nov 28 07:00:21 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA40355 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:03:42 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA04124 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:00:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:00:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199911272100.NAA04124(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) > Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com > Did you successfully build from a boot-tape image on the emulator, or did > you copy the RP06 image (such as on the PUPS archive) directly to the disk > and tranfer the physical drive to the PDP? (And what method/command did > you use?) > > > Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the > > SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers > > I do this regularly for my vaxen. 10 to 1 Steven Schultz has been this route > on the PDP-11's tho (Hi Steven :). 'fraid I haven't been _that_ route before. What I would do today, given the presence of a Qbus SCSI adaptor in the system, is either 1) Use a cheesy old 4mm drive (I've a Sony SDT5000 that's too small and/or slow today for the Intel system - upgrade it to an 8mm drive), hook that up to the PC and blast the 2.11BSD boot kit on it (using the instructions, etc provided in the PUPS archive). Then move the 4mm drive over to the PDP-11 and boot the tape . 2) Get a SCSI Zip drive, hook it up to the "PC" and use one of the emulators to create a ~96mb image of a system containing the standalone utilities + dump of root fs + tar files for usr. Then march the Zip drive over to the PDP-11 and boot. Instead of specifying "tape file numbers" to the standalone programs (as in "tms(0,1)") you would use "ra(1,0)disklabel" and so on. A Zip drive is _real nice_ to have on the 11/73 - the Zip is actually quite a bit faster than an RD53/RD54 and the media and drives are cheap for Zips (Internal SCSI zip drives and a 3.5" shoebox run perhaps $150 or so). Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40489 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:24:22 +1100 (EST) >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 07:23:30 1999 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA40485 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:24:14 +1100 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:23:30 -0800 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: 2.11BSD To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199911272100.NAA04124(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <13503008950.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk [Given the presence of...] Like I said, I tried #2 there, and failed. But it is possible to do? That's all I was really after. Halt address coming in about 1/2 hour or an hour, depends on when they're done with the cord. Oh, and a Qbus SCSI card in this box would likely go FUMP! This is an 11/44. I plan on taking pictures sometime. ^_^ ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA40973 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:33:51 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Nov 28 09:23:37 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA40969 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:33:42 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA04916 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:23:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:23:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199911272323.PAA04916(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> > Like I said, I tried #2 there, and failed. But it is possible to do? > That's all I was really after. Oh, it _should_ work - so yes, it's possible if all the underlying pieces are in place. Hmmm, rather than trying to use a pre-existing RP06 disk image perhaps it would be better to get the tape images (should be in the pups archive) and use 'makesimtape' or whatever to create a bootable tape image for one of the emulators. Going thru a "cold install" to create a disk image should work. You do have floating point hardware in the 11/44, correct? > Halt address coming in about 1/2 hour or an hour, depends on when they're > done with the cord. > > Oh, and a Qbus SCSI card in this box would likely go FUMP! > This is an 11/44. Doh! That's what comes from dashing off a mail item in a rush to go off to lunch ;) Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA41022 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:43:56 +1100 (EST) >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 09:42:58 1999 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA41018 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:43:47 +1100 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:42:58 -0800 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: 2.11BSD To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199911272323.PAA04916(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <13503034339.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk [Use an image built from an install tape...] I did. [Have floating point?] Yup. Floating point and I'm one memory board short of 2 meg of RAM. (I'm at 19xx bytes, forgot the exact number.) ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA41262 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:36:39 +1100 (EST) >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 10:35:47 1999 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA41258 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:36:31 +1100 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:35:47 -0800 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Message-ID: <13503043955.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk It's looping around at 157702. 157702 contains 001776 -------

25 years, 5 months

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2.11BSD

by Daniel A. Seagraves

I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^ I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is lack of a boot tape. Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap was running but it was looping (I forgot the address). Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers got inside it and got fried.) ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA39579 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:14:13 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sun Nov 28 05:13:59 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA39566 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:14:03 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:13:59 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:13:59 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <991127141359.20a000ba(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried >making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of >hkuboot, but it failed. Are you sure it was a RP06 image? hkuboot is the RK06/07 bootstrap. How did you move the RP06 (or RK06) image to the physical SCSI drive? You were asking about doing it with RT-11 a few weeks ago, but you *do* know that RT-11 won't conventionally access the 65536th (and 2*65536th, and 3*65536th...) blocks on a MSCP partition, don't you? (There is a way of accessing that last block, but you have to code it with a .SPFUN call to the DU driver, and none of the distributed RT-11 utilities work on that last block, even with the /DEVICE qualifier.) Did the version of 2.11BSD you're working from have disklabel support in the hk driver? Disklabel support there was added recently (where "recent" = 2 years ago). > The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap >was running but it was looping (I forgot the address). Get us the address (HALT the 11/44, either with the front panel toggle or control-P from the console) and we'll find out why it's looping. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA39623 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:21:02 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 5 months

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Re: 2.11BSD

by pups＠mrynet.com

> I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^ > I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of > DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is > lack of a boot tape. I have the DZ11 (M7814) user's guide right here. 1) Priority insert level 5 goes in E41. 2) E72 -- Address. Closed (on) is binary 1. A12 A11 A10 A9 A8 A7 A6 A5 A4 A3 ----------------------------------------- | 10| 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | on | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | off | | | | | | | | | | | ----------------------------------------- Addressing examples: 160000 -- A12 thru A3 OFF 160010 -- A12 thru A4 OFF, A3 ON 177770 -- A12 thru A3 ON (OFF=Logical 0, ON=Logical 1) 3) E81 -- Vector Closed (on) is a binary 0. -unused- V3 V4 V5 V6 V7 V8 --------------------------------- | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | on | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | off | | | | | | | | | --------------------------------- Vectoring examples: Vector V8 V7 V6 V5 V4 V3 300 ON OFF OFF ON ON ON 310 ON OFF OFF ON ON OFF 770 OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF (ON=Logical 0, OFF=Logical 1) Let me know if you need any more info. > Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried > making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of > hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap > was running but it was looping (I forgot the address). Did you successfully build from a boot-tape image on the emulator, or did you copy the RP06 image (such as on the PUPS archive) directly to the disk and tranfer the physical drive to the PDP? (And what method/command did you use?) > Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the > SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers > got inside it and got fried.) I do this regularly for my vaxen. 10 to 1 Steven Schultz has been this route on the PDP-11's tho (Hi Steven :). Lemme know if I can help more. Regards, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA39662 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:26:23 +1100 (EST) >From James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Sun Nov 28 05:26:19 1999 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA39658 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:26:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from simul8.demon.co.uk ([212.228.120.103]) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 11rnTr-000J6P-0K; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:26:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3840305B.59044771(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:26:19 +0000 From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: 2.11BSD References: <13502970974.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hmm.. I've got a manual for the Viking UDT, and I'll try to remember to bring it in on Monday. I don't know anything about how 2.11BSD boots. However, I had an interesting time trying to get 4.3BSD on my 750 to boot off this controller. It turned out that the Viking's emulation of the UDA50 isn't *quite* accurate, and that the 4.3 boot code was using one of the edge-of-the-envelope features that the Viking didn't quite emulate right. I modified the bootstrap slightly and got it going. Whether this has anything to do with your problem, I don't know. (It was worth all the effort in the end, to see the monster hulking 750 booting of a little dinky plastic zip drive!) James "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > > I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^ > I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of > DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is > lack of a boot tape. > > Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried > making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of > hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap > was running but it was looping (I forgot the address). > > Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the > SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers > got inside it and got fried.) > > ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA39726 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:29:51 +1100 (EST) >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 05:28:56 1999 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA39714 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:29:40 +1100 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:28:56 -0800 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: 2.11BSD To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Message-ID: <13502988095.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk [Replied to Tim but not the list - oops!] Method to transfer drive: FTPd disk image to MicroVAX running NetBSD, used cat. Saved the RT11 image beforehand. When BSD died I put RT11 back. RT11 works. Disk image was an RP06 constructed from a boot tape I made. It used stuff from the PUPS archive but wasn't the image from the archive. I will get the loop address shortly - I have to get an extension cord back to power the machine. -------

25 years, 5 months

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Also, new PDP-11 emulator

by Warren Toomey

Thanks to Eric for passing on that posting from Dennis re PDP-7 dsw. For those who don't read the newsgroups, there's a new version of the Begemot PDP-11 emulator: ------------------ From: Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Version 2.4 of the p11 PDP-11 emulator Date: 19 Nov 1999 15:04:33 GMT Version 2.4 of p11 - the Begemot PDP-11 emulator - is available on ftp.fokus.gmd.de:/pub/cats/usr/harti/p11. This release supports the following platforms: FreeBSD 4.0 Sparc-Solaris 2.[5678] Redhat-Linux It will possibly work on FreeBSD [23].* and other Linux variants. To build it you need libbegemot (avalaible in the same location), gcc and gmake. Previous versions also built on BSD/OS and SunOS. ------------------ Cheers, Warren

25 years, 6 months

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source code for PDP-7 dsw command

by Eric Fischer

Sorry for the repetition if you've already seen this. The source code for the PDP-7 Unix dsw command was just reposted in alt.sysadmin.recovery. Here's the article: Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery From: flaps(a)dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) Subject: Re: Time to train not one, but 15 PFY's. . . Date: 23 Nov 99 22:17:39 GMT SKaranyi+n0(a)localhost.ruhr.de (Wolfgang Schelongowski) writes: >>NAME dsw -- delete interactively ... >Radio hams with contact to the `Evil Empire' know that it's the short >form of doswidanye or so. IOW "Bye". Fascinating. It appears that although it was claimed to stand for "delete from switches", and this is what it actually did, it was also a pun on the amateur radio abbreviation. The later program described in the previous article seems to be named after the original (and no longer deserves the name "dsw"). And the original "dsw" was *not* interactive. The original "dsw" program uses the console switches to specify the file to be deleted, for file names with funny characters in them. It was astonishingly round-about: you would set the number 'n' on the switches, then run dsw, and it found the name of file #n in the current directory, and then created a core dump which when executed, would delete that file. Sheesh. It's not like there wasn't an unlink() system call; why not just unlink it? Well, I guess the idea is that you would examine the core file and make sure it was deleting the right file. But there are still obvious trivial improvements. And why not take the number in argv[1]? Of course this was well before it was possible to write something like "rm `command`". It is interesting that the 1971(?) man page mentions that really there should be an option to rm, and then goes on to specify "rm -i *" behaviour as appropriate for a serious version of this command. That "BUGS" section sure was a good idea. I still can't believe the sysV people renamed it to "NOTES". dmr posted the man page of the original dsw program to net.general in 1981, and it can thus be found at http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/NET.general/81.08.12_research.19_net.g… (there is an earlier posting about dsw, which is a joke) dmr also posted the source code to net.unix-wizards in 1984. This is too late for the "oldnews" archive, so I'll include the article here. I love his comment that he considered posting instead to net.sources. Date: 8 Dec 84 09:45:09 GMT From: dmr(a)research.UUCP Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards Subject: dsw: pdp7 memorabilia I happened to dredge up an old notebook and found a listing of the PDP-7 version of dsw. Because several people have approached me recently about reviving a version of PDP-7 Unix as a sort of paleontological exhibit, and because the subject has been discussed here, I thought people might be interested in seeing the code. I first considered net.sources, but decided not to carry whimsy too far. Dennis Ritchie Notes: 1) The assembler has Knuth-style temporary labels but no literals. 2) The name of the current directory was evidently ".." 3) Formatting is faithfully reproduced. 4) "sys save" makes a core image. ------ " dsw lac djmp dac .-1 oas cla cma tad d1 dac t1 sys open; dd; 0 1: lac d2 sys read; dir; 8 sna sys exit lac dir sna jmp 1b isz t1 jmp 1b wr: lac d1 sys write; dir+1; 4 lac d1 sys write; o12; 1 sys save do: sys unlink; dir+1 sys exit d1: 1 d2: 2 o12: 012 t1: 0 djmp: jmp do dd: 056056; 040040; 040040; 040040 dir: .=.+8 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06682 for pups-liszt; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:19 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 6 months

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RE: Info on PDP-11 (fwd)

by Warren Toomey

All, I got this message from Guus Ellenkamp, <Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl>. Can anybody help? ----- Forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus ----- I have a PDP-11/73, but without standard operating system. How to get and install an operating system? Preferebly RSX11M or UNIX. I have an ST-60 tape. I don't know what disks are in it. It has 2 disks. How to see what type they are? Guus ----- End of forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA70740 for pups-liszt; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:54:06 +1100 (EST) >From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Tue Nov 2 16:24:29 1999 Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA70736 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:53:57 +1100 (EST) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id IAA13061; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:14:16 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA46208; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:24:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Message-Id: <199911020624.HAA46208(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Info on PDP-11 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199911020027.LAA59610(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Nov 2, 1999 11:27:29 am" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:24:29 +0100 (CET) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko(a)freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk As Warren Toomey wrote ... I can. I'm close by, both physically and timezone wise. Guus: please send me email. I'm quite busy this week with NLUUG buth I'll try to help asap. Wilko > All, > I got this message from Guus Ellenkamp, <Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl>. > Can anybody help? > > ----- Forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus ----- > I have a PDP-11/73, but without standard operating system. How to get and > install an operating system? Preferebly RSX11M or UNIX. I have an ST-60 > tape. I don't know what disks are in it. It has 2 disks. How to see what > type they are? > > Guus > ----- End of forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus ----- > -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org

25 years, 6 months

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dc and date numerology

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Greg Lehey wondered about the date in > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the story. The relatively recent ls or tar or whatnot that printed the line above presumably interpreted the date as if it were in modern form: seconds since 1 Jan 1970 UTC. So the raw number stored in the i-node was probably about 105000000 decimal (30 Apr 1973 in my time zone), or about 1200 days into the epoch. But the file system described in the First Edition manual takes the date as a count of clock ticks since 1 Jan 1971. The clock ticked at 60Hz, so the date is really about 1200/60 = 20 days into the epoch; if this file came from a 1e file system, it was written on 21 Jan 1971. The trouble with keeping a 60Hz clock in a 32-bit number is that it takes just a couple of years before it overflows. A band-aid had been stuck on by the time the Third Edition manual was printed: the base date changed to 1 Jan 1972. So maybe bin/dc was written on 21 Jan 1972 instead. There's no way to tell just from the bits in the i-node. The modern time format (1-second resolution) appeared in the Fourth Edition manual. It is probably not a coincidence that the file system format changed a lot at the same time; groups appeared, permission modes changed to approximately their current form, directory entries changed, and so on. The 60Hz scheme seems to have come from the PDP-7, on which it made more sense; the -7 has 36-bit words, so a 60Hz counter lasts 16 times longer. I bet the base date changed at least once between the original PDP-7 system and the PDP-11 as well, since 1 Jan 1971 seems too recent for the PDP-7 system. See http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html for many more such grotty details, collected in an insomniac night with a stack of old manuals some months ago. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA42069 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:33 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Oct 28 10:02:25 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA42060 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA26898 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:25 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199910280002.KAA26898(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: dc and date numerology In-Reply-To: <199910272349.JAA41914(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Oct 27, 1999 7:48:50 pm" To: Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:25 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > Greg Lehey wondered about the date in > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as > the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date > representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the > story. [ much omitted ] Norman details the fact that early Unixes stored time in 60ths of a second, i.e the normal clock tick, and as such, a 32-bit integer overflows in around 2.5 years. However, I think Norman is not exactly right when he said that the tar archive was reinterpreting this 1/60 sec time in units of seconds. Dennis Ritchie, with help from Keith Bostic and a DECtape drive, managed to retrieve these files from an old DECtape. These old files were stored in tap(1) archive format. Dennis wrote a program to read in the tap(1) format archives and extract their contents while trying to maintain the _correct_ permissions and timestamps. Here is his email describing this: The tapes were written in either the 'tap' or 'tp' format, which are similar in that they have a directory of up to 192 entries at the start with names and other information including the size and tape address of the files. 'tp' was the later format, and was in use by November 1973, the date of the 4th edition manual. With `tap', the times associated with the files were recorded in pre-modern units: sixtieths of a second, from an origin that changed. The first three editions of the manual had BUGS sections noting that 32 bits can represent only about 2.5 years in this unit, and this implied continuing crises as the time overflowed. I believe that the change to use seconds for Unix time took place along with the change to the C version of the operating system, which occurred about the end of the summer of 1973, and also that the change from `tap' to `tp' took place at the same time. (This is consistent with the dates of the 3rd and 4th edition manuals). Thus the dates recorded with the `tp' tapes probably correspond reliably to the modification dates of the files at the time of saving them (of course, this gives only a upper bound on their creation, since they might have been copied or trivially touched just before saving them). Recovering the proper dates for the `tap' tapes is less reliable, because there was at least one change of epoch (from 1971 to 1972) during the period they could possibly have been produced. I believe that the 1972 epoch is most likely the correct one for the tapes here. In other words, Dennis had to guess the epoch when recovering these files. He got it right with the `nsys' kernel files, because there is enough other data lying around documenting the kernel rewrite from assembly to C, and the inclusion of pipes into the kernel. However, with the s2.tar archive, I think Dennis got the epoch one year out, i.e everything should be dated a year earlier. The most obvious is that there are so many 0405 magic a.out files in the archive, and apparently this a.out format disappeared in the 2nd Edition. Cheers all, Warren

25 years, 6 months

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Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?

by Warren Toomey

In article by Eric Fischer: > Brian D. Chase writes, > > > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > > 7th Edition? > > It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter > Century of Unix, it's even older than that. > eric There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29099 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:24:03 +1000 (EST) >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Tue Oct 26 10:23:42 1999 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29095 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:23:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com (bdc(a)world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13599; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (bdc@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11996; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:23:42 -0700 From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <199910260007.KAA16993(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910251718360.7714-100000(a)world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- "Captain, we're experiencing a high rate of packet collisions!" -- K. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29144 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:16 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Oct 26 10:27:09 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29140 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA17113 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:10 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199910260027.KAA17113(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910251718360.7714-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 5:23:42 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:09 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Brian D Chase: > On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as > they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. > > Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, > it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. No, the perms have got stuffed up in conversion from 1st Ed permissions to the tar archive. 1st Edition had no groups, and only had perms 01 write for other 02 read for other 04 write for owner [ all octal values ] 10 read for owner 20 executable 40 set-UID Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29265 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:36:34 +1000 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Oct 26 10:33:59 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29260 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:36:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 24193 invoked from network); 26 Oct 1999 10:36:59 +1000 Received: from trowel.geac.com.au (203.1.26.189) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 26 Oct 1999 10:36:59 +1000 Received: (qmail 931 invoked from network); 26 Oct 1999 10:36:24 +1000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au (202.6.67.163) by trowel.geac.com.au with SMTP; 26 Oct 1999 10:36:24 +1000 Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au?r with ESMTP id KAA08766 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:34:00 +1000 Delivered-To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-Authentication-Warning: fgh.geac.com.au: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:33:59 +1000 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910251718360.7714-100000(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.20.9910261031430.7382-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Brian D Chase wrote: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as > they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. I don't believe the concept of group permissions existed then... > Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, > it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. On the other hand, people actually trusted each other, because you all worked with each other, and it was common for someone to write a utility and stick it on the system. Hint: /usr wasn't called that for no reason... -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia

25 years, 6 months

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When did the `dc' command first appear?

by Brian D Chase

Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or 7th Edition? -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA27477 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 03:20:12 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 7 months

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Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?

by pups＠mrynet.com

Brian Chase asked: > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? I see it on the System III and Version 7 systems. I don't see it in V6 distro however. Cheers, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA27681 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:03:31 +1000 (EST) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Tue Oct 26 04:15:15 1999 Received: from csadfa.cs.adfa.edu.au (csadfa.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA27677 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:03:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from 216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com (216-80-13-90.d.enteract.com [216.80.13.90]) by csadfa.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id EAA09243 for <pups@minnie@cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:03:21 +1000 (EST) Received: (from eric@localhost) by 216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA25814; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:15:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from eric) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:15:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910251815.NAA25814(a)216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: bdc(a)world.std.com Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910250931400.1849-100000(a)world.std.com> References: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910250931400.1849-100000(a)world.std.com> Cc: pups@minnie@cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Brian D. Chase writes, > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter Century of Unix, it's even older than that. "There was also a version of dc, desk calculator, a very very early program. That was actually the first program that ran on the PDP-11. It ran standalone before there was an operating system." (p. 35) eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA27847 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:24:20 +1000 (EST) >From Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> Tue Oct 26 04:23:48 1999 Received: from scapa.cs.ualberta.ca (root(a)scapa.cs.ualberta.ca [129.128.4.44]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA27843 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:24:12 +1000 (EST) Received: (from localhost user: 'mark' uid#150 fake: goodfare.cs.ualberta.ca) by scapa.cs.ualberta.ca id <S433932AbPJYSXv>; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:23:51 -0600 Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910250931400.1849-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 09:34:40 am" From: Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> To: bdc(a)world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:23:48 -0600 (MDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL53 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19991025182355Z433932-29789+188(a)scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? > I think it was in 6th, but thats straining my memory a bit. -- Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada

25 years, 7 months

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Program to read unknown tapes

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

Hi everyone, I have already posted this program to the PUPS list back in December 1998, but people are asking for it again, and also there are people on the Quasijarus list and not on the PUPS list who want it, so I'm posting it again, to both lists. This program can read a tape on a UNIX box without the user having to know anything about its format. This program automatically determines how many files are on the tape, what is the record size for each, and whether there are any oddities such as partial records. It saves each tape file into a separate disk file and produces a log of everything found on the tape. It's a simple C program and should compile and run on virtually any UNIX or UNIX-like system. The original version was written by one guy I met on another list once and then it was significantly enhanced by me. I include it below as a uuencoded 'compress -s'ed tarball. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Enclosure: uuencoded cptape.tar.Z: begin 644 cptape.tar.Z M'Z'M6&U3&S<0YJOU*P0T@PW&^,`X&3NF0PBT:0G,0-(WFNF(.YU]PUER[^08 MFO#?N[LZ^>X<4MK.0#[D=B;#25KMR[-O<EZ+*QE&L5QZ0/+:[6ZGPY<X]]K= M'?S+.[NTMN1UGG+>[>[L[NZTM[UM8FOO+O'V0QKE:)H:D7"^-+Y..]U_X'L[ M#,X?PYY'IE6V"A%XG64!#W7"_8D1$\E6&3M]\<.@-A:1:FEV?G:0??N,'1P= M[W]W/JAMGC)FV7NU;^K`WF`UW^?VDV]J)XM]:3<K^@R='>Z_?'WXL#KNJ7^O MLUVH_YVGR-;>[5;U_QAD"Y0G4@0I%YP6D>):29Z.M&GR22S\2`VY%/[('E.C MB)31P)_*B4B$D3R(TBM&)T(%/-;#(5XR(^2$IC(6)M**BTL]-:#,UTG`T^@O MF;9<`R%%,OTW>NR)$F,9\#7\;BFUUN2SD4PD4XI'*2DV,[T91,/(P.T_IU*9 M2,1<3<>7,N$Z)!82!'81.^JL@^^!]*.QB!DFAD$O9I$9\;;7:/$W(YG:6P!6 M(KD/N!FP(K(B_&F2(a)!XP$EPT.KEI\2-HJ&84I0PX4ZW(2D5PHV3!E9R1YB9! M/M/3..`*\8KCFTP\<,T%4H..3)/Y`0=@X(OP3J8J:[4\3/08C4DD0'LREV0/ M(:2HX%+2#9&"N#C6L[0WC\)F3.98%Y^G$\!"Q'N,$;CYAL,8@^#`3(1U!0!\ M'_F@S/(27$TN6\-6DVW!V99*QJ:-8(*0613'N9]W!99<IJQ8C!9#U\N7YK:O MV:@)'D>I00L!ACRM4GM*5N?)R)RFUM<SK^Q$?U@=]_3_W=UNN]#_V\BVW?6J M_O\8M+7.^+IK#YO<UY.;8IE`X4S5E=(SY0HEEFIH1G!IB['52/GQ-,"^8()( MMT9[A:W05R8N;\DD40M<Z4VZ194.NVPU@.*%-GCRXNU1C9X&J".D-=^#5?E> MI/U,@U1!%#(&PX(/I=$3P^N-/I/71B;0&$<0X'78%,EPOHFLL!6IH(E_P;)^ MKA_4G;_Z[=":T-UYUJEMK?-]'_VGJ:;Y&,99O=-H\K&XMGA=QMJ_LFVD!@2@ M8C<Y/SA_1>>I:UP_[?^"S=/K_MC*&+?(<!9H!+^._3L$HV"$(BX-<LIN]MG1 MJ^-#OIX=]=D'AA9"`IO(ASBET5!!$R1_+Z=A*).+S)-W?>*<L\0:W+`!5=J> MD1J0JB<PGP:\O7`#CR"@<.+E_$:C4;@BG;`$+NS$%\_NU$CST4>,`&P\1HCJ M_?[<E(V-!O_`:L1\>6-DBH,2>&N4.=:LVOP`UOAG#IGUN>G"!QE0@^2IY_S/ M>9ODH^H)B-1)?67^_%E!?CQ)I)E"AGA]6D'D<7YCS(3B=`E#5KOE,H:W0%G! M8%#0@$<.T8;=@A,RR8]U*NL(7P-.:KA=M`D>29.I#4>/$R\91SSR.C)UCY:W M\&^20"#"^LH;<&,LDBL8M#`4H6QI*JX^:6]/?U<K31<_NI=];VRX11YS4G%K M_Z!_N=E@4'J'&H3/&I?!5A"2093!`4`21JF&)T,@C'#M!AYH".BGZ4*XSI+( M&*DP"1RHRW>@ZG`X=X^VW/]F<<;W^).XA$@SPQ5H'D?R!S7-B]#RA)F6;+O) M5X[^NY8[5*69W+R`0#1U192\$#W,&@@6O9E*-]K=;G=NN>4:\$WO_@1#29]- ML$)^>#;,ME2S?*GE-0T[A9K]-),6BG%Y4.@')2.S4/XL$@61[#E@5P'3<F9C M4>(F"46XRR(a)[4_,H+.#N$JH0YMJG,?X?=MRO^C;+YV)CFR=&EO.PC5^V4>3M MK23(N5"ZMUR(1,.6QUV!)^&EXO7ZME#S-N=*F=KU+9Z%]H1E-7UR^N;L</_@ M^\.7N&O=HGF&+\LZC%P??J(DP_=VD.&ZS^Q$7L=M-\3PT"_,$C?DZ`?&@)^\ M/3ZVIZ416#JQ]V@8W'4QGZ,<RR+?!&?#>&AC0)NS$8JNUWW8L\^)@A^0$'%O MI=%`D`]/CPC>%'Y-P.^3ND\K7T#36XO7>A:]LB/N&6*##0&Z@F]X=HAI;'KN M[K?NKC6-&G61/XN&M1:CG[GP\6/VID'CT&1HL1[9Y+(:WFG`"SY,4S'$VK</ MOPOXV9?9^8Y`@B3&O*!>L-WH+^HK^)0-;!>.$'M%\1QTS5;<*%[.*ZT\AHL" M,V?S/E1R=R&^&)(+Z_2[?H$C(*S!E")_DY_^<?;R].3X5^B6F5<TI;,;U"[1 MGWFY@`1Z\=G_%G&EDV/CE;')RN@S3[D^E,>7?N]75%%%%554444555111155 /5%%%7Q_]#6D82E<`*``` ` end

25 years, 7 months

1
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Re: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images

by Steven M. Schultz

Howdy - > From: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) > > Has anyone successfully booted either the System III > (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) > tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the I don't know what the problem with Ultrix is but I suspect your trouble with System-III is similar to what I wasted a couple days on eons ago Spent a fruitless couple days trying to get Sys-III going on a 11/44 only to have it dawn on me that Sys-III didn't have *any* UMR support except for the DH-11 - thus an 11/70 with MASSBUS devices was the only thing Sys-III would run on. As far as I know no effort was put into Sys-III to deal with 22 bit machines that didn't have a MASSBUS (a la 11/70). PERHAPS that is what is biting you? Feels likely. I know that no effort was put in to supporting UMRs on 22bit systems such as the 11/44. The Supnik and Begemot emulators offer up a ~kdj-11 (11/53, 73, ...) and not an 11/70 so it could be that Sys-III is trying to do something 11/70'ish that KDJ-11 based systems don't offer. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00889 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:39:50 +1000 (EST) >From "P.BASKER" <basker(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in> Thu Oct 21 13:04:09 1999 Received: from uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in [202.141.1.17]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00885 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:39:39 +1000 (EST) Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in (ece.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.2]) by uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA05114 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:13:26 +0530 Received: from protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29573; Thu, 21 Oct 99 09:09:06+0530 Received: from localhost (basker@localhost) by protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24170 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:34:09 +0530 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:34:09 +0530 (IST) From: "P.BASKER" <basker(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: "P.BASKER" <basker(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: assembler? In-Reply-To: <199910210259.TAA16059(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.96.991021082828.24006A-100000(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi , Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax, I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator. I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine. Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for cross development (learning). Bye P.Basker Research Program Asst, ECE Dept IISc, India Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01039 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:03:45 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Oct 21 14:02:36 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01035 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:03:38 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id OAA00539; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:02:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199910210402.OAA00539(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: assembler? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.991021082828.24006A-100000(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in> from "P.BASKER" at "Oct 21, 1999 8:34: 9 am" To: basker(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:02:36 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by P.BASKER: > Hi , > Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax, > I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and > Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to > check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator. > I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine. > > Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for > cross development (learning). > Bye Yes, I wrote Apout. It runs user-mode programs from V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD. So if you could find an assembler for any of these systems which met your requirements, and produced .o files which could be linked using the normal Unix linker, you'd be okay. However, I haven't heard of a Unix assembler with MACRO-11 syntax, and Apout only runs PDP-11 Unix binaries. So you probably would be better off with a full emulator running a DEC OS with MACRO-11. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01742 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:06:23 +1000 (EST) >From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Thu Oct 21 09:01:53 1999 Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01732 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:06:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id IAA21266; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:51:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA44603; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 01:01:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Message-Id: <199910202301.BAA44603(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images In-Reply-To: <199910202028.NAA49448(a)mrynet.com> from PUPS mailing list at "Oct 20, 1999 1:28:36 pm" To: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 01:01:53 +0200 (CEST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko(a)freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk As PUPS mailing list wrote ... > Has anyone successfully booted either the System III > (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) > tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the Ultrix-11 V3.1 works just fine on my 11/83. I supplied the binary images to PUPS from the .5" reel tape ;-) So, yes it can work. My PDP is now running 2.11BSD btw. -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03366 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:56:31 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 7 months

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booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images

by pups＠mrynet.com

Has anyone successfully booted either the System III (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the Begemot P11 and the Supnik emulators produce the following on a generated boot disk: #0=unixhptm ka6 = 1535 aps = 141774 pc = 1476 ps = 30010 trap type 0 ka6 = 1535 aps = 141666 pc = 113444 ps = 30300 trap type 0 panic: trap The Ultrix images both fail to actually boot from tape, as they quit after reading the first boot block. Thus I am unable get as far as being able to generate a disk image for booting. I'm somewhat confident that my tape image booting and system generation procedures used with the Supnik emulator are working properly, since I successfully generate disk systems from both the V7 (Bostic) and the 2.11BSD boot-tape images. Any info and interest of others gleefully appreciated :) -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans -----

25 years, 7 months

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Help!

by Broadway, Rusel

Hi. I have been given a Bull DSP 2/300 system. The machine is running B.O.S. version 02.00.12. The machine boots and runs fine and I cal login as Root and look around the system. The problem I have is that the B.O.S. operating system is a Unix look-a-like and I can find no-one who actually knows anything about the box. Most Unix commands work but, being a VMS guy, I can't run the machine like my Digital MV 2's. Does anyone know anything about these machines? I particularly want to have a bash at programming the machine. It appears to have C (This should be fun. I've not touched C for 12 years!) Also. I have two Digital Micro Vax 2's. The both have hardware problems in that a) One machine has a system disk which will not come up to speed and b) The other has a corrupted system_primitives.exe on VMS 5.5-H and so I can't run either of them! Anyone know where I can get spares which are pre-loaded? I really would appreciate any help or advice/ pointers etc that anyone can give. Rusel Broadway Senior Systems Analyst DDI: 01206-25-5745 ********************** N O T I C E ********************************* This information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review , retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this error, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses, however we cannot guarantee that this message is free from such problems. ********************************************************************** Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA17930 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:02:44 +1000 (EST) >From James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Sun Oct 17 05:11:03 1999 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA17926 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:02:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from simul8.demon.co.uk ([212.228.120.103]) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11cZ66-000Dz5-0C for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:02:30 +0000 Message-ID: <3808CDC7.210BC969(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:11:03 +0100 From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: vtserver References: <199910141836.LAA21478(a)moe.2bsd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own 11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other mid-range 11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I think I picked this up from the differences table in the /04, /34 & /60 CPU handbook. (This was unfortunately no use at all to me, as I've got a /40 not a /34.) Of course, that was a while ago and I might be wrong. James "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > Hi - > > > From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> > > I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from > work tonight. > > > I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a > > very minimal system ;-) But it ran > > That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D > machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a > chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took > to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project). > > Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60, > etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space, > everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit > in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack > of instruction restart on MMU faults. > > I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it > wanted an 11/70. > > Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA18139 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:47:02 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Oct 17 05:42:14 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA18135 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:46:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA18843 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:42:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199910161942.MAA18843(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: vtserver Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> > > Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own > 11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other > mid-range 11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I It's not the automatically restoring that is the problem - the /34, /40 (/60, etc) lack the MMU registers that record by how much the cpu registers have incremented/decremented at the time an instruction has faulted. SSR1 and SSR2 located at 0177574 and 0177576 respectively. From the module which handles the instruction restart (mch_backup.s): * 11/40 version of backup, for use with no SSR1 and SSR2. Actually SSR1 * usually exists for all processors except the '34 and '40 but always * reads as zero on those without separate I&D ... What is a dozen lines of code if those registers exist turns into over 300 lines and even then there is no guarantee (fortunately the C compiler does not generate the sequences that can not be handled) it will work. What's instruction restart used for? The most common case is growing the stack. The stack for a process starts out small and then kernel will automatically extend it downwards IF an instruction faults when accessing the stack area: sub $N,sp mov $xxx, XX(sp) mov -(r4), X(sp) for dealing with local variables in a function. The other case is when calling a function: mov (r0)+, -(sp) mov $xxx, -(sp) jsr pc, function If the reference to (sp) is made and the instruction faults the kernel will determine if the current stack needs to be extended. It will then restart the faulted instruction - but to do that it needs to know what other registers ('r0', 'r4', etc...) might have been already changed so that it can back out those changes before restarting the instruction. In the case of the 11/44, 70, 73, etc there are MMU registers that will record the fact that "R0" or "r4" or whatever was changed by 2 or not. On the /34 and /40 that capability does not exist and the kernel can not _always_ guarantee things will work. MOST of the time it will but... Interestingly enough there is a difference between the KDJ-11 (11/73) family and the other 11s which have the SSR1, and 2. From the bug report and fix for 2.11BSD (update #150): "The problem is that the KDJ-11 processes the double word store of the 'movfi' differently than the 11/44 or 11/70. On other systems (such as the 11/44) the first word is stored successfully at 0175000 then the program faults when trying to access 0174776 but SP is left at 0174776 with SSR1 (memory management status register 1) indicating that 'sp' was decremented by 4. The kernel adjusts 'sp', grows the stack and restarts the instruction. The 'movfi' then completes successfully. On a KDJ-11 cpu the story is different. The fault is generated as expected BUT 'SP' IS STILL 0175002! The kernel sees that 'sp' is still within the "valid stack region" and DOES NOT grow the stack at all. SSR1 indicates that no registers were modified so the kernel does no adjustment of 'sp'. The instruction is NOT restarted and a SIGSEGV signal is sent to the program. The problem appears to be only when doing FP instructions, fixed point operations do not experience any difficulty. The instruction "cmp -(sp),-(sp)" for example is handled correctly." Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA18253 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 06:08:29 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Oct 17 06:07:04 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18248 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 06:08:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA19063 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:07:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199910162007.NAA19063(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: vtserver Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> > > To: Kirk Davis <kbd(a)ndx.net> > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. > > I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that > you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 > or 2.9BSD instead. I _think_ I know what the problem is... While the /34 (and /40, etc) can run a stripped down V7 (the necessary mch.s code exists for example) the kernels that come with the distribution are split I&D kernels. /hptmunix, etc are all split I/D executables. Thus you'll be able to toggle in the bootstrap and get /boot loaded but then fault when loading and/or trying to execute the kernel. As I recall the usual way to get Unix on to a /23, 34,etc was to have a 11/70 around to do the build on, then stage/create the media (usually an RL02 or similar) on the 70 and sneakernet the pack over to the /34. At least that is how it was done when we shoehorned V7 into an 11/23. Of course we "cheated" in that we had a fellow around who made the necessary changes to the assembler/compiler/linker to handle kernel overlays (preceeded the use of them in 2BSD by several years). Thus we could run a larger kernel than a pure/stock V7. It was an "interesting" experience running V7 on an 11/23 (maxed out with 248kb of memory which was fairly expensive at the time). There was just enough memory left after the kernel was loaded for a couple user processes. Thus as the '#' prompt you would run "ls" the shell ('sh') would get swapped out, the 'ls' would run, and then 'sh' would get swapped back in. Uh, slowed things down just a _little_ bit :-) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

25 years, 7 months

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Re: vtserver

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit As Warren Toomey wrote ... > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. I'm 99% sure, that it's V7 which I have running (for lower values of running, because one drive is dead and the power supply needs to be replaced) on my 11/34A with 128kB RAM and two RL01. I think I wanted to install V6, but installed V7 because of the RL01 drivers. I stripped V7 down, so I only needed one RL01 disk pack (I have only two.) and transfered the disk image via kermit. I want to install 2.11BSD on my M70 with 512kB RAM (No, more RAM is to expensive here. 1MB for over US$500.) and a 120MB ST506-type disk, but had not much time. I want to avoid the way of the disk image, because I have no BSD installed for the emulator and don't know, if the transfere of slices of the disk image would be successfull. (The RT-11 only handles 32MB "disks".) I think the best way would be to boot from a 2.11BSD floppy and install it via serial port. (TU-58 emu? Are there 1.2MB 2.11BSD floppies somewhere?) Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside

25 years, 7 months

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Re: vtserver

by Warren Toomey

On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700, Kirk Davis wrote: > Warren, > I've been checking out your vtserver program. It's a great idea > and it's been fun to play with. I'm bringing up a /34 and have been > collecting parts for it for a few months. I've got it set up with > a few RL02's on it. Few questions for you: > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > I'm working on getting a source license from SCO. I'd love to hack on > this with you if you are interested in any help. Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 or 2.9BSD instead. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA02824 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:40:02 +1000 (EST) >From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Fri Oct 15 03:18:02 1999 Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA02811 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:39:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id TAA01702; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:15:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01066; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:18:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Message-Id: <199910141718.TAA01066(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: vtserver In-Reply-To: <19991014163422.C41213(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Oct 14, 1999 4:34:43 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:18:02 +0200 (CEST) Cc: kbd(a)ndx.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko(a)freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk As Warren Toomey wrote ... > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700, Kirk Davis wrote: > > Warren, > > I've been checking out your vtserver program. It's a great idea > > and it's been fun to play with. I'm bringing up a /34 and have been > > collecting parts for it for a few months. I've got it set up with > > a few RL02's on it. Few questions for you: > > > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > > > I'm working on getting a source license from SCO. I'd love to hack on > > this with you if you are interested in any help. > > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. > > I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that > you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 > or 2.9BSD instead. I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a very minimal system ;-) But it ran -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA03106 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 04:38:33 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Oct 15 04:36:52 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA03102 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 04:38:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA21478; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:36:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199910141836.LAA21478(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: vtserver Cc: kbd(a)ndx.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from work tonight. > I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a > very minimal system ;-) But it ran That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project). Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60, etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space, everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack of instruction restart on MMU faults. I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it wanted an 11/70. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03622 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 06:04:30 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 7 months

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UNIX Milestones (was: Unix Calendar in Germany (Request for some help))

by Greg Lehey

Anybody here interested in helping? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Christoph Kaeder <hh-city(a)lehmanns.de> ----- > Delivered-To: freebsd-questions(a)freebsd.org > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:53:14 +0200 > Organization: Lehmanns Fachbuchhandlung > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (Win95; I) > To: freebsd-questions(a)FreeBSD.ORG > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Precedence: bulk > > Hello. > > Lehmanns bookshop in Germany will print a > Unix-Freeware-Calender in > postersize and give it away for FREE (300.000 copies / > 4-colour!). > > The calendar will include over 100 remarkable days from the > History of Unix, Linux, Freeware and Open Source. > > > Would you like to add some remarkable days from the > FreeBSD-History? > Release days or ... > > > - calendar-home : http://www.lob.de/cal0 > - first look (JPEG): http://www.lob.de/cal1 > - a detail: http://www.lob.de/cal2 > - form to add your remarkable days: http://www.lob.de/cal3 > > And if you agree we would like to add the FreeBSD Daemon on > this calender beside the Tux, TeX-Lion, Perl Camel ... > > Do you agree to this and can you send us a Tif or JPEG? > We need it with 300 dpi, 4-colour, about 1 inch high > > Thanks. > Christoph Kaeder > -- > > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - > * -- * > Lehmanns Fachbuchhandlung fuer Informatik, Medizin und > Psychologie > Hermannstrasse 17 / 20095 Hamburg / GERMANY / > hh-city(a)lehmanns.de > Telefon 040 - 336384 / Fax 040-338955 / International: > 0049-40-... > http://www.lob.de / Mo - Fr von 10 bis 20 und Sa von 10 bis > 16 Uhr > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - > * -- * > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo(a)FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key

25 years, 7 months

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Re: Access to PUPS Archive

by Warren Toomey

In article by Lord Isildur: > hello, > > alas, i do not have an account on the PUPS Archive machine! could i have one? > i remember vaguely something about requiring pgp-signed stuff, and i dont > use pgp, and so dont have a public (or any other) key. > isildur Here's the policy for the machine holding the PUPS Archive: + People with UNIX source licenses can get at least guest FTP access to the archive, with S/Key as the authentication mechanism. + People with UNIX source licenses, and who either help to maintain the archive, or who have volunteered to distribute the archive, can get ssh access to the machine. + No telnet access, no e-mail. The box runs with `reserved tolerance' from the real system administrators :-) If you fall into either category, and can prove you have a UNIX source license, then I can either PGP e-mail you, or fax you, the access details. Apologies for the cross-post to the 3 old UNIX-related mailing lists! Cheers, Warren

25 years, 7 months

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Ptr to a Vax simulator

by Warren Toomey

Just FYI: http://www.forest-edge.net/evax.html Warren

25 years, 8 months

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History of the BSD

by Warren Toomey

All, I just found this on-line article from Kirk McKusick on the history of BSD. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html Warren

25 years, 8 months

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Re: Unisys 5000 / 7000 manual set

by Warren Toomey

In article by johna(a)babel.apana.org.au: > Hi Warren, > I have a set (11 I think) of manuals for the Unisys 5000 / 7000 series > which I'd be happy to give away. Not sure if they are of historical > interest (too recent, perhaps) or if it was a landmark computer ... > > Anyway, I'd be happy to donate them to the Unix archive if you're > interested. I'm in Sydney, North Ryde, and would be happy to pass them > on next time we're in earshot of each other Actually, your email made me think: if I collect _erverything_ offered to me, then I _will_ run out of room soon. So, how about the idea of a register? You tell me what you have & your contact details. I put up a web page with the stuff, your name, and your contact details if you are happy. Then, if people want access to them, they can contact you. Or, if you'd rather not have your contact details on the web, they can contact me. And if you feel like getting rid of them, you can email me and I'll see if anybody wants them. Let me know what you think. P.S I'm cc'ing this to the PUPS mail list for similar comments. Cheers, Warren

25 years, 8 months

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Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> > Do you recall the PC-board hack on the sep-ID machines that changed No, I do not recall seeing a PCB hack (hacking on an 11/70 was frowned upon ;)) > the MFPI instruction to do something that was expressly prohibited? But I do know what that 'something' was. In "user" or "supervisor" mode MPFI functioned as "MFPD" - a user program could not read its own I(nstruction) space. Only for "kernel" mode did MFPI access the I space. > Something about allowing a user program to access something else, for > some obscure hack or other... It was aimed at providing "execute only" code - a program could "run" but not "read" its code space. This caused problems though if trap handlers (floating point exception handling comes to mind) needed to retrieve the faulted instruction for inspection/analysis. Thus in 2BSD there is a system call that programs can issue to request the KERNEL to do the 'mfpi' for them and return the value. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA10091 for pups-liszt; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:48:18 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Sep 9 19:58:19 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10087 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:48:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA22975; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:58:20 +0200 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:58:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? In-Reply-To: <199909062356.JAA12397(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990909115534.22939A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant > USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm > thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc. As far as I can remember, there aren't any huge differences. However, some stuff behave differently in the 11/20. On the other hand, some stuff behave differently in just about every implementation... Condition flags on some instructions specifically. And the 11/20 might have had some limitations on using the PC which differed as well. I have a processor handbook for the "modern" -11s, which has a chart with all differences between different models. I started writing it down, to place in the PDP-11 FAQ, but haven't come that far yet... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

25 years, 8 months

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Re: KE11-A! (was Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?)

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

Are, I was afraid of that. The KE11-A wasn't a real CPU option, but was a peripheral that sat on the Unibus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03506 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:58:18 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Sep 8 11:12:00 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA03501 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.edu.AU>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:58:10 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.edu.AU; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:12:00 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:12:00 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <990907211200.2020016c(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant >USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm >thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc. Well, first of all, there is no "User mode" on the 11/20 unless you have a KT11 installed. Everything is kernel mode with no KT11. Maybe the executables are trying to go out and directly bang on the console CSR's, the switch register, or the interrupt vectors themselves? 11/20's also frequently had the EAE (Extended Arithmetic Element) installed, to make up for the fact that there was no multiply, divide, or multiple shift instructions in the native instruction set (and wouldn't be until the EIS came along.) The EAE was a peripheral living in I/O space (773000-777316); you wrote the operands to the EAE locations and read the results later. You can put a EAE in a machine with EIS, but generally you only did this if you had some binaries without sources using the EAE (I know of several sites running 11/24's and 11/44's with EAE's today) There are many other differences, especially dealing with "funny" address modes. Generally, folks like me who have to code so that something works across all the -11's know better than to do these things, but back when there was *only* the 11/20 some folks didn't know any better and used them anyway. First, we have instructions that use the same register as source and destination, with an auto-increment one or the other: 1. OPR R,(R)+ on an 11/20 increments R before it's used as a source operand. On an 11/45 the initial contents of R are used. 2. Same thing for OPR R,-(R). 3. JMP (R)+ or JSR reg,(R)+ increments R before putting it in the PC on the 11/20; on the 11/45 R isn't incremented until after the old value is put in the PC. 4. On an 11/20, JMP %R traps to 4; on an 11/45, JMP %R traps to 10 5. On an 11/20, SWAB does not change the V flag; on every other machine, SWAB clears V. (In the 11/20 processor handbook, it *says* that SWAB clears the V flag, but that's not the way the machine actually worked!) 6. On an 11/20, R0-R7 can be used by the program at addresses 177700- 177717; on any other machine, they can't be used that way and will result in a non-existent memory (NXM) trap. This can be used for some neat tricks where you run code out of the registers (which of course is quite non-portable!) There's lots more differences, having to do with T bits and interrupt handling, but I don't know if you're getting that far... and these aren't things that you have to worry about in user mode, anyway. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03564 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:03:51 +1000 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep 8 11:15:48 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03558 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:03:40 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 4832 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 11:21:32 +1000 Received: from trowel.geac.com.au (203.1.26.189) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 11:21:32 +1000 Received: (qmail 27748 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 11:29:48 +1000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au (202.6.67.163) by trowel.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 11:29:49 +1000 Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au?r with ESMTP id LAA21756 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:15:48 +1000 X-Envelope-From: dave(a)horsfall.org X-Envelope-To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-Authentication-Warning: fgh.geac.com.au: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:15:48 +1000 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? In-Reply-To: <199909070604.XAA04723(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9909081103330.19899-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote: > The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember coming across was > an incompatibility in the result of > > MOV SP, -(SP) Anything involving the same register as src and dst in this way was, err, different... And I have an annotation that the JSR does not behave as documented. Unlike page 91, the sequence is not (tmp) <- (dst) / v(SP) <- reg / reg <- PC / PC <- (tmp). The first ISP code is not present i.e. the SP is decremented first, not saved, and the last is PC <- (dst). > It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular > instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the > time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out. Some sort of frame pointer linking, on an architecture that didn't have separate frame pointers (like the Vax)? -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03594 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:05:14 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Sep 8 10:48:50 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03588 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.edu.AU>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:05:07 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.edu.AU; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:48:50 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:48:50 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <990907204850.202001b4(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > MOV SP, -(SP) > >It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular >instruction "MOV SP" is often-used shorthand for "MOV some-non-zero-value", since no sane implementation would ever have a zero in the SP. So this would put a non-zero value on top of the stack (perhaps as a flag, to be cleared by CLR (SP) when ready) - at least on machines where this was legal! On which machine does this fail, BTW? On a 11/15, 11/20, 11/23, 11/35 or 11/40 this ought to work, decrementing SP by two before putting it on the stack, and on the 11/03, 11/04, 11/05, 11/10, 11/34, and 11/45 SP is decremented by two before being put on the stack, according to my notes. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03973 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:47:41 +1000 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Sep 7 14:13:30 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03969 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:47:34 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 24470 invoked from network); 7 Sep 1999 14:18:39 +1000 Received: from trowel.geac.com.au (203.1.26.189) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 7 Sep 1999 14:18:39 +1000 Received: (qmail 12323 invoked from network); 7 Sep 1999 14:26:41 +1000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au (202.6.67.163) by trowel.geac.com.au with SMTP; 7 Sep 1999 14:26:41 +1000 Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au?r with ESMTP id OAA21437 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:13:31 +1000 X-Envelope-From: dave(a)horsfall.org X-Envelope-To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-Authentication-Warning: fgh.geac.com.au: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:13:30 +1000 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? In-Reply-To: <199909062356.JAA12397(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9909071404290.19123-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > I've got a few working. cat works. ls and date run, but sort of give > strange outputs. What sort of strange output? My guess is that kernel-wise, date-handling would have changed. > These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant > USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm > thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc. Ummm... No floating point (all emulated), and I seem to recall that it didn't even have multiply/divide; could this be the problem? The /20 was certainly a subset of the "classic" 11. No memory management, but users won't see that. Also had some quirks, long-forgotten. My experience is based on the GT-40, which was basically a /20 with a graphics processor attached to it (which had a mean Lunar Lander game!). -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04594 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:30:23 +1000 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Sep 8 14:43:16 1999 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04581 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:29:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id VAA07676 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:43:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199909080443.VAA07676(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Sep 7 18:24 PDT 1999 > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:49:36 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> > To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? > > > From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> > > > > MOV SP, -(SP) > > Similarily > > MOV R0,(R0)+ > > won't work as expected on some 11s. I suspect that the even less > likely case of "mov pc,-(pc)" won't work either :-) > > > It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular > > instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the > > Fairly common when setting up call frames, etc. You want the > address of where the arguments start and since they're pushed on the > stack 'sp' is the value you want. > > There's a comment in 2BSD (I think it came from V7) where mention is > made that "we can't do sp,-(sp) because it won't work on the 11/40". > > > time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out. > > Hmmm, interesting. The workaround I saw took an extra instruction. Abbreviated due to fading memory over the years, but refreshed by some of the current discussion. The patch was zero-length but involved more than the one instruction. Something similar to: MOV SP, -(SP) MOV SP, R0 MOV (sP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP) The net result being that the initial value of SP is now both in R0 and on the stack. Without doing both a SRC and DST operation on SP in the same instruction, which is the thing that is incompatible across different processor hardware. carl Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04681 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:51:11 +1000 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Sep 8 15:03:09 1999 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04676 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:50:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id WAA08055 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:03:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199909080503.WAA08055(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:13:30 +1000 (EST) > From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> > To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> > Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? > X-No-Archive: Yes > > On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > I've got a few working. cat works. ls and date run, but sort of give > > strange outputs. > > What sort of strange output? My guess is that kernel-wise, date-handling > would have changed. It occurs to me that really early Unix used a time word in PDP-11 ticks, not seconds. So it ran out of time a lot sooner than 2038, like maybe only a year after it started, at 60 ticks per second, 31.5 Megaseconds per year. This information was gleaned from a Mt.Xinu calendar from a few years ago. carl Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04812 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:28:58 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Sep 8 15:40:58 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04808 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:28:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA17669 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:40:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199909080540.WAA17669(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Howdy - > From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> > Abbreviated due to fading memory over the years, but refreshed by some > of the current discussion. The patch was zero-length but involved more It has been a long long ('quad'? ;)) time since I first encountered the problem. > than the one instruction. Something similar to: > > MOV SP, -(SP) MOV SP, R0 > MOV (SP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP) Ah, thank you for bringing that memory back to the front of the brain! If R0 is available for that then yes indeed that'll do the trick very nicely. > on the stack. Without doing both a SRC and DST operation on SP in the > same instruction, which is the thing that is incompatible across different > processor hardware. The 11/45 (and 70) behave as "expected" as do the KDJ-11 systems (11/73, etc) so unless a person had an 11/40 (or a /20) around it would be fairly easy to get bit by the "feature". When it comes time for MMU "features" I know of one difference between the KDJ-11 and the other members that had an MMU (11/44, /70, etc). Was fun tracking it down but not something I'd want to do again ;) Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04962 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:17:43 +1000 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep 8 16:29:16 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA04957 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:17:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 10263 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 16:34:56 +1000 Received: from trowel.geac.com.au (203.1.26.189) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 16:34:56 +1000 Received: (qmail 1789 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 16:43:20 +1000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au (202.6.67.163) by trowel.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 16:43:20 +1000 Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au?r with ESMTP id QAA24887 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:29:17 +1000 X-Envelope-From: dave(a)horsfall.org X-Envelope-To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-Authentication-Warning: fgh.geac.com.au: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:29:16 +1000 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? In-Reply-To: <199909080540.WAA17669(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9909081618240.19899-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > MOV SP, -(SP) MOV SP, R0 > > MOV (SP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP) > > Ah, thank you for bringing that memory back to the front of the brain! > If R0 is available for that then yes indeed that'll do the trick very > nicely. Yep, I remember that now! Often thought it was odd, but it worked on all platforms. The convention was that R0/1 were scratch (used to return results) and R2/3/4 had to be saved (they were the caller's first three register variables). R5 was used as a frame pointer (?) and R6/7 you know better as SP/PC. > The 11/45 (and 70) behave as "expected" as do the KDJ-11 systems > (11/73, etc) so unless a person had an 11/40 (or a /20) around it > would be fairly easy to get bit by the "feature". We had 40s, and used to dream of owning a 70... I learned a lot about porting Edition 6 to the /23, /60, etc. > When it comes time for MMU "features" I know of one difference between > the KDJ-11 and the other members that had an MMU (11/44, /70, etc). Was > fun tracking it down but not something I'd want to do again ;) Do you recall the PC-board hack on the sep-ID machines that changed the MFPI instruction to do something that was expressly prohibited? Something about allowing a user program to access something else, for some obscure hack or other... -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA05921 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:30:43 +1000 (EST) >From Wim Fournier <hsmade(a)dds.nl> Wed Sep 8 20:41:32 1999 Received: from amber.dds.nl (amber.dds.nl [194.109.21.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05917 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:30:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from feline.dds.nl (feline.dds.nl [194.109.20.19]) by amber.dds.nl (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25230 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:39:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fatima.dds.nl (hsmade(a)fatima.dds.nl [194.109.20.21]) by feline.dds.nl (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA16806 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:41:33 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:41:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wim Fournier <hsmade(a)dds.nl> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Newbie question Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.90.990908123352.21899B-100000(a)fatima.dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, I am the happy owner of a pdp-11/94. I've got it from our local telecom provider (kpn). As I am not a specialist on these machines, I would like to ask some questions: - My pdp won't accept mains... when I supply power it doesn't do anything.. I've heard it could be something with the power-supply not being closed.. but I cannot find what it is.. it's fully closed. - I've got sdi / tu80 and an other diskcontroller... What type of disks can I use to boot from?? (disks = floppy / tape / harddrive) - What about the 2 connectors at the back.. 1 has 3 pins and can be connected to the mains regulator (or something (a box for switching the mains)) an other one has got 2 pins and no info... - Is there some info on hardware to connect at the diverse controllers (modem / serial??) GreetZz Wim Fournier hsmade(a)dds.nl

25 years, 8 months

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Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?

by Carl Lowenstein

> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> > Subject: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? > To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:56:09 +1000 (EST) > > Dennis Ritchie has unearthed some really old Unix a.out > executables from around 1st Edition - 2nd Edition period: see > Distributions/research/1973_stuff in the PUPS Archive. > > These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant > USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm > thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc. There's a good table in the back of the more recent micro-11 manuals. The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember coming across was an incompatibility in the result of MOV SP, -(SP) It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03173 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:13:57 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 8 months

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Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

There is huge difference between the machines, but not backwards! The 11/20 doesn't have :- EIS instructions like div, mul, ash etc FPU instructions like fmul ... MMU no memory management of any sort, 56Kb memory, 8Kb I/O page and hence no user modes, 16 bit addressing So a program written for a 11/20 should work untouched on an 11/45 except for some very minor (and ugly) instruction sequences involving using the same register for both source and destination eg mov r2,-(r2), or jmp (r2)+. The behaviour of the trace trap and T bit is also different. There is a list of differences some some of the PDP/11 handbooks (perhaps the latter architecture book). Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03319 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:38:29 +1000 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep 8 10:50:39 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA03314 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:38:20 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 4222 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 10:56:15 +1000 Received: from trowel.geac.com.au (203.1.26.189) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 10:56:15 +1000 Received: (qmail 27184 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 11:04:35 +1000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au (202.6.67.163) by trowel.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 11:04:35 +1000 Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au?r with ESMTP id KAA21475 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:50:40 +1000 X-Envelope-From: dave(a)horsfall.org X-Envelope-To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-Authentication-Warning: fgh.geac.com.au: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:50:39 +1000 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: KE11-A! (was Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?) In-Reply-To: <199909070110.LAA12638(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9909081049430.19899-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > I also see that unit 1 lives at 777300 - 777316, and the date a.out > executable does this: Yep; I read through my own 11/20 handbook, and I remembered that EAE weirdness. -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03361 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:43:07 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Sep 8 10:49:36 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03354 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:42:59 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA15948 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:49:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199909080049.RAA15948(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> > The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember coming across was > an incompatibility in the result of > > MOV SP, -(SP) Similarily MOV R0,(R0)+ won't work as expected on some 11s. I suspect that the even less likely case of "mov pc,-(pc)" won't work either :-) > It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular > instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the Fairly common when setting up call frames, etc. You want the address of where the arguments start and since they're pushed on the stack 'sp' is the value you want. There's a comment in 2BSD (I think it came from V7) where mention is made that "we can't do sp,-(sp) because it won't work on the 11/40". > time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out. Hmmm, interesting. The workaround I saw took an extra instruction. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03462 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:53:48 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 8 months

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Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, Dennis Ritchie has unearthed some really old Unix a.out executables from around 1st Edition - 2nd Edition period: see Distributions/research/1973_stuff in the PUPS Archive. [ Actually, I suspect his dates are a year off: they should be 1972 ] I've printed off the 1st Ed manuals from Dennis' web page, and I'm attempting to get my a.out emulator, Apout, to run these old binaries. I've got a few working. cat works. ls and date run, but sort of give strange outputs. These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc. There is no source code with these binaries, so I can't use that to help debug the emulator. I do have the following processor handbooks: PDP-11 /20 /15 /R20 1972 PDP-11 /45 1973 PDP-11 /04 /34 /45 /55 /60 1978-79 I just thought I'd ask for pointers here before I hit them for details. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA27104 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:10:31 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Sep 7 11:10:25 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27099 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:10:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA12638 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:10:25 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199909070110.LAA12638(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: KE11-A! (was Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:10:25 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, I've just answered my own question. Reading thru the 11/20 processor handbook, I see the section on the extended arithmetic element, KE11-A, which is ``an option to perform multiplication, division, multiple position shifts and normalization significantly faster than software routines''. I also see that unit 1 lives at 777300 - 777316, and the date a.out executable does this: 230: TRAP 15 time syscall 232: MOV #177770,@#177314 240: MOV #47432,@#177300 246: ADD #5,@#177304 254: MOV #7,@#177300 262: MOV @#177302,@#177304 270: MOV #5,@#177306 276: ADD #40622,@#177304 304: MOV @#177304,320 . . . So it looks like I need to add KE11-A support to my emulator :-) Cheers, Warren

25 years, 8 months

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where did `partition' come from?

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

The sub-disks that one divide real disks into on UNIX systems are usually called `partitions' these days. But that's not what they were originally called on UNIX: - V7 hp(4) and rp(4) refer to `sections' and `pseudo-disks'. 32V hp(4) refers to `portions' and `pseudo-disks.' Later Research UNIX manuals, once Section 4 was being edited again, settled on `sections.' - System V Release 5.0 (the most recent system for which I have the device driver part of the manual) also refers just to `sections.' (So far as I can remember, this convergence was a coincidence; I think I'm the one who decided to use `sections' on the Research side, and I think I did so just because it was the more graceful of the historic cases, though my memory is not clear.) - 3BSD and 4.0BSD follow 32V; in 4.1BSD, the term `partition' appears as well. The System V preference for `section' lives on in the device naming scheme on System-V-derived, but the documentation even on those systems just says `partition' these days. It looks to me like `partition' came in from the Berkeley world. Does anyone on the list remember where it came from? Was the new term introduced on purpose, or did it just creep in in the way language usually changes? Norman Wilson Occasional pursuer of arcana

25 years, 8 months

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What's the true size of an RA92?

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

For any MSCP disk, the proper way to find out how many sectors there are is to ask the disk. The `unit online' command (which has to be used anyway, to tell the controller to connect to the disk) reports the unit size in sectors; the `get unit status' command reports the number of sectors per track, tracks per group, and groups per cylinder. (The term `group' here is MSCP-speak which I've never really understood; the idea seems to be that groups are collections of cylinders that can be switched between with relatively little time penalty, whereas switching between even adjacent cylinders is more expensive.) Beware, however, that modern disks usually don't have a fixed number of sectors per track; the tracks furthest from the spindle have more sectors, so that more of the disk surface can be used without too much density variation. Such `zoned' disks weren't common (maybe they didn't even exist) when the MSCP spec was first written; maybe the RA92 is new enough that it has zones. I've never been convinced that worrying in great detail about track and cylinder sizes gains much performance anyway, but that's another story.

25 years, 8 months

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What's the true size of an RA92?

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

Hi, I wonder, does anyone know for sure what is the user capacity of an RA92 in blocks? I'm now updating disktab(5) and the driver tables in 4.3BSD-Quasijarus to cover new RA disks, and I can't figure out the user capacity of RA92 in blocks. For all other RA disks with no exceptions (all RA8x, all RA7x, and RA90) the user capacity in blocks is exactly equal to the number of cylinders multiplied by the number of heads multiplied by the number of sectors, i.e., no funny reserved sectors or tracks or anything like that. Looking in the disktab(5) from Ultrix V4.2 I see a perfect match between the geometry and the partition sizes for all disks except RA92. The RA92 entry indicates 3279 cylinders, 13 heads, and 69 sectors per track, but partition c is listed as 2940951 blocks instead of 3279*13*69=2941263 blocks. Does anyone know for sure whether the user capacity of an RA92 is 2940951 blocks, 2941263 blocks, or something else altogether? -- Michael Sokolov Special Agent International Free Computing Task Force ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17754 for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 10:41:13 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 8 months

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Now the TK50 problem

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

Hi, Having solved the RA72 problem and the KDA50 problem, I'm ready to attack the next problem. :-( This time the TK50. I have a very odd problem with it. When I first power up the VAX, everything works fine. I can read tapes, restore dumps, etc. Then after some uptime (apparently something heat-related) it starts behaving very oddly. Tapes with 512-byte records still read just fine, but trying to read a tape with 10240-byte records (such as a UNIX filesystem dump tape) results in the controller returning a hard error indication of "record data truncated". This is so odd that I first thought it was a software problem, but it isn't, because this happens identically under 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 and Ultrix V4.0, whose TMSCP drivers are completely different. The fact that the problem occurs only after some uptime suggests some kind of overheat, which would normally be a very low-level physical problem, but the record size dependence suggests something high-level, more likely the controller than the drive. This MicroVAX is still under the dealer's warranty (I just bought it on Monday), so if this is a bad drive or controller, I can replace it, which which of the two is it? Has anyone ever seen this problem before? Does anyone know whether it is the drive or the controller that's bad? TIA. -- Michael Sokolov Special Agent International Free Computing Task Force ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com P.S. The temperature in the machine room is 70F. Not the best for a machine room, but the best you'd ever expect for an office, and I think the VAX has no right to go on strike at 70F.

25 years, 8 months

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Re: V7M

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

V7M was the DEC distribution of V7 (pre Ultrix days). Fred Canter did most of the work, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It supported non ID space machines, and some of the newer DEC hardware. My manual lists it as working with :- CPUS:- 11/23, 34, 44, 45/50/55, 60 and 70 Disks:- RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02/3, RP04/5 Tapes:- TU10, TE10, TU16, TE16, TS11 There was a strip down of V6 called Miniunix that would run on machines without memory management, such at the 11/20, 05, 10 and 35/40 (without MMU option). It required a full 56Kb machine, used the first 28Kb for the kernel and swapped the last 28Kb for each process. Pipes worked by using a temporary inode to store the data and swapping the processes. It was realllllllll slow. The was also a similar version for 11/03's. I remember that there was an early bug in that updates would always rewrite open inodes (last access time had changed). You could physically wear out a floppy disk, since it was forever rewriting the sector with the inode for the console terminal. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00853 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:07:04 +1000 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Thu Sep 2 16:06:50 1999 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00845 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:06:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id XAA06196 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:06:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199909020606.XAA06196(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: V7M Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Subject: Re: V7M > cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:44:29 -0700 > From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.mckusick.com> > > My recollection is that V7M stood for V7-mini. It was a > striped down version of V7 that was designed to run on > the very low-end PDP-11's (like the 11/20). Well, actually the M was for Modified. Particularly modified to work with some more DEC peripherals. What ran on 11/20's was Mini-Unix, which was a stripped-down 6th Edition. By the way I'm not sure that the PUPS archive has a Mini-Unix tape. I have one, although it has not been read since the days when I had an 11/20. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00913 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:11:58 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Sep 2 16:09:16 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00907 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:11:51 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id QAA00770; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:09:16 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199909020609.QAA00770(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: V7M In-Reply-To: <199909020606.XAA06196(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> from Carl Lowenstein at "Sep 1, 1999 11: 6:50 pm" To: cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:09:16 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Carl Lowenstein: > Well, actually the M was for Modified. Particularly modified to work > with some more DEC peripherals. > > What ran on 11/20's was Mini-Unix, which was a stripped-down 6th > Edition. By the way I'm not sure that the PUPS archive has a Mini-Unix > tape. I have one, although it has not been read since the days when I > had an 11/20. > carl Yep, it's in Distributions/usdl/Mini-Unix. It's not in the research/ dir because it was not done in the labs, but elsewhere. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00659 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:07:17 +1000 (EST) >From Anders Magnusson <ragge(a)ludd.luth.se> Thu Sep 2 18:05:23 1999 Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00643; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:05:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (ragge(a)father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22337; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:05:25 +0200 From: Anders Magnusson <ragge(a)ludd.luth.se> Received: (ragge@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA11504; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:05:24 +0200 Message-Id: <199909020805.KAA11504(a)father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: Re: KDA50 woes To: quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:05:23 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-Reply-To: <9909020115.AA00610(a)meson.jpsystems.com> from Michael Sokolov at "Sep 1, 99 08:15:23 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Hi, > > I wonder, does anyone here know anything about the KDA50? I've solved my RA72 > Well, something I think... :-) [...] > > So my questions to the folks are: First, is my understanding of the situation > correct? Second, what can be done about it? I guess as a temporary solution I > can remove this problematic IPL autodetection code and hard-code the IPL of my > KDA50, but what is it? Is the IPL set with switches on the KDA50 or how? And > what do the KDA50 switches do in the first place? Does anyone know? TIA. > The IPL autodetect code has seemed to me as unneccessary. You know that the KDA50 will always interrupt at spl5, so you can hard-code it in the interrupt driver and nuke the autodetect code. The same with the other drivers that can be on Qbus: if (uh->uh_type == QBA) spl5(); -- Ragge

25 years, 8 months

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KDA50 woes

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

Hi, I wonder, does anyone here know anything about the KDA50? I've solved my RA72 problem (as it turns out, if there is no control panel connected, the drive assumes normal operation, i.e., spin up, go on-line, enable port A, no write protect, and the unit number between 0 and 7 is set by the switches on the right side of the drive), but now I have a different problem: I can't get UNIX (4.3BSD-Quasijarus of course) to recognize the KDA50, although it worked fine on my Webster ESDI controller back in Ohio, and others have also reported successfully booting it on different controllers. By inserting a few debugging printouts in the uda driver, I have determined that it fails the udaprobe(). I know very little about UDA50/KDA50 registers, so I may be wrong, but it looks to me that the code is trying to do the following. It diddles the controller registers to make it start the initialization. Then apparently it expects the controller to interrupt and set some status bits in some register. However, because of Q-bus's odd interrupt protocol and the need to determine the IPL of the controller, the procedure is done non-trivially. First it does an spl6(), disabling all interrupts except BR7 (which these controllers apparently don't use). Then it does the register diddling and testing with these interrupts disabled. It allows the CPU to field the interrupt only when the register bits indicate that the operation has been performed and the interrupt has been posted. Apparently the assumption is that the controller will post the interrupt and then set the right bits in the right registers without waiting for the CPU to field the interrupt. Also apparently the KDA50 is different and doesn't set those bits until the interrupt is fielded, breaking this code. So my questions to the folks are: First, is my understanding of the situation correct? Second, what can be done about it? I guess as a temporary solution I can remove this problematic IPL autodetection code and hard-code the IPL of my KDA50, but what is it? Is the IPL set with switches on the KDA50 or how? And what do the KDA50 switches do in the first place? Does anyone know? TIA. -- Michael Sokolov Special Agent International Free Computing Task Force ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00399 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:09:20 +1000 (EST) >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> Thu Sep 2 09:44:29 1999 Received: from knecht.sendmail.org (knecht.sendmail.org [209.31.233.160]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00395 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:09:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by knecht.sendmail.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20755; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick(a)localhost.concentric.net [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA29309; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909012344.QAA29309(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: V7M cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Aug 1999 09:41:23 +1000." <199908082341.JAA83043(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:44:29 -0700 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk My recollection is that V7M stood for V7-mini. It was a striped down version of V7 that was designed to run on the very low-end PDP-11's (like the 11/20). Kirk McKusick Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00533 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:27:01 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Sep 2 15:25:35 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00528 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:26:54 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA04996 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:25:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199909020525.WAA04996(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: V7M Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> > > My recollection is that V7M stood for V7-mini. It was a > striped down version of V7 that was designed to run on > the very low-end PDP-11's (like the 11/20). Hmmm, interesting. My memories dredge up the 'M' as meaning "Modified". Don't recall it ever being touted as 11/20 capable 56kb, no MMU would be a wee bit too mini I'd think - was there ever a V7 that could run without an MMU? If there was I've completely forgotten about it. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00770 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:59:45 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 8 months

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Setting the unit number on RA72

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

Hi, I wonder, does anyone know how to set the unit number on an RA72 manually, without the RA7x control panel? I need to put two RA72s in a BA123, I have the skidplates under the drives, the KDA50 and the right internal SDI cables, but this is a BA123, so I don't have that RA7x control panel they put in 3500/3600 skunk boxes. I know that on RF drives if you don't have that panel connector, the drive has its own switches or jumpers to set the DSSI node number, and I'm sure that the same is true for the SDI unit number on RA7x drives. There is a pack of 3 DIP switches on the right side of the RA72, is that the unit number? If so, is bit 0 on the left or on the right? Is 1 up or down? TIA. -- Michael Sokolov Special Agent International Free Computing Task Force ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com

25 years, 8 months

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Re: Source of early Unix information

by Warren Toomey

In article by Martin Crehan: > I found a web site: > http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/ > that has Usenet postings dating from May 1981 to May 1982. the groups: > FA.unix-wizards > NET.bugs > NET.bugs.2bsd > NET.bugs.4bsd > NET.bugs.v7 > NET.sources > NET.tools > NET.unix > NET.unix-wizards > contain postings with information on the early days of Unix. > > Have you heard of any other places that have old Usenet articles. > Martin Crehan Does anybody know of other Usenet archives? There are some archives of comp.sources.* around. I've got much of the Minix and BSD newsgroups archived since 1992. I've also got 3 9-track tapes sitting here. One's labelled `News'; the others have labels: 1600bpi tar OLDNEWS ARCHIVE (mod) 25 feb 87 1600bpi tar OLDNEWS ARCHIVE (aus,comp,mod,net,news) 25 feb 87 I might try reading them in the next few days. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA57011 for pups-liszt; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:31:26 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Aug 30 11:29:26 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA57007 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:31:20 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA11320; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:29:31 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908300129.LAA11320(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: VAX emulators In-Reply-To: <199908280413.VAA22151(a)gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from Martin Crehan at "Aug 27, 1999 9:13:15 pm" To: mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net (Martin Crehan) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:29:26 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Martin Crehan: > Warren > > Keep up the good work. Have you heard of any VAX-11 emulators that we > could use to run some of the versions of unix for the VAX? > Martin Crehan No, I don't know of any free ones. I think DEC have one for the Alpha, but it's commercial. Does anybody know of a VAX emulator? I wonder if Bob Supnik would be working on one. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA57118 for pups-liszt; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:50:02 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Mon Aug 30 11:49:47 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA57104 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:49:53 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:49:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:49:47 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <990829214947.232006ae(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: VAX Emulators Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> Keep up the good work. Have you heard of any VAX-11 emulators that we >> could use to run some of the versions of unix for the VAX? >No, I don't know of any free ones. I think DEC have one for the Alpha, >but it's commercial. What DEC has for the Alpha to let you run VAX code is VEST, which is a translator, not a pure emulator. > Does anybody know of a VAX emulator? Well, during 1977-1978 VAX instruction set development was done on an 11/70 running an emulator. Does that count? :-) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA57425 for pups-liszt; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:20:29 +1000 (EST) >From Stuart Norris <norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> Mon Aug 30 12:20:22 1999 Received: from orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au (orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au [129.78.216.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA57421 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:20:23 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (norris@localhost) by orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA18883 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:20:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au: norris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:20:22 +1000 (EST) From: Stuart Norris <norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> X-Sender: norris(a)orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au Reply-To: Stuart Norris <norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Unix 5th and 6th Edition Filesystems for Linux In-Reply-To: <199908300129.LAA11320(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990830115745.18933C-100000(a)orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I mentioned this to Warren a few months back, but I don't think I sent it out to the mailing list, so excuse me if I am repeating myself. Anyhow, I have hacked together a version of a Unix 5th (and 6th) Edition filesystem for Linux. It is read only, and was written for Linux 2.0 on an x86 and so will require a little work to install on other systems and newer kernels, but it is fun to be able to mount old disk images. Now only if I had the time to get it read-write ... [root@ebb disks]# ls -l total 2447 -rw------- 1 norris users 2494464 Feb 16 1999 ted_v6root [root@ebb disks]# mount -t u5e -o loop ted_v6root /mnt/u5e [root@ebb disks]# cd /mnt/u5e [root@ebb u5e]# ls -l total 102 drwxrwxr-x 2 adm sys 1104 May 14 1975 bin drwxrwxr-x 2 adm sys 1824 Aug 15 1975 dev drwxrwxr-x 2 adm sys 496 Aug 15 1975 etc -rwxr-xr-x 1 root sys 29932 Aug 15 1975 hpunix drwxrwxr-x 2 adm sys 464 May 14 1975 lib drwxrwxr-x 2 adm sys 32 May 14 1975 mnt -rwxr-xr-x 1 root sys 29932 Aug 15 1975 rkunix drwxrwxrwt 2 adm sys 272 Aug 15 1975 tmp drwxrwxr-x 15 adm sys 240 Aug 15 1975 u -rwxr-xr-x 1 root sys 28684 Aug 15 1975 unix drwxrwxr-x 15 adm sys 240 Aug 15 1975 usr The source is sitting at http://www.maths.unsw.EDU.AU/~norris/software.html#u5e Untar the file into /usr/src/linux-2.0.XX/fs/u5e-0.2, make it, and stick the module into /lib/modules/2.0.XX/fs. Then mount your disk image with mount -t u5e -o loop <image> <mount point> Cheers, P.S. It is interesting to see that the GNU magic file is so up to date; [root@ebb disks]# cd /mnt/u5e/lib [root@ebb u5e]# ls -la total 228 drwxrwxr-x 2 adm sys 464 May 14 1975 . drwxrwxr-x 10 adm sys 256 Aug 15 1975 .. -rwxrwxr-x 1 adm sys 5064 Jul 18 1975 as2 -rwxrwxr-x 1 adm sys 15352 Jul 18 1975 c0 -rwxrwxr-x 1 adm sys 21814 Jul 18 1975 c1 -rwxrwxr-x 1 adm sys 8188 Jul 18 1975 c2 -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 112 Jul 19 1975 crt0.o -rwxrwxr-x 1 adm sys 17424 Jul 18 1975 fc0 -rwxrwxr-x 1 adm sys 23822 Jul 18 1975 fc1 -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 136 Jul 19 1975 fcrt0.o -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 13810 Jul 18 1975 filib.a -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 340 Jul 18 1975 fr0.o -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 14118 Jul 18 1975 liba.a -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 22042 Jul 19 1975 libc.a -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 13958 Jul 18 1975 libf.a -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 27622 Jul 18 1975 libp.a -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 9982 Jul 19 1975 libs.a -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 3530 Jul 19 1975 liby.a -rwxrwxr-x 1 adm sys 3144 Jul 18 1975 lpr -rw-rw-r-- 1 adm sys 436 Jul 19 1975 mcrt0.o -rw-rw-rw- 1 root bin 8794 Jul 19 1975 tmgb [root@ebb u5e]# file * as2: PDP-11 pure executable c0: PDP-11 pure executable c1: PDP-11 pure executable c2: PDP-11 pure executable crt0.o: PDP-11 executable not stripped fc0: PDP-11 pure executable fc1: PDP-11 pure executable fcrt0.o: PDP-11 executable not stripped filib.a: very old PDP-11 archive fr0.o: PDP-11 executable not stripped liba.a: very old PDP-11 archive libc.a: very old PDP-11 archive libf.a: very old PDP-11 archive libp.a: very old PDP-11 archive libs.a: very old PDP-11 archive liby.a: very old PDP-11 archive lpr: PDP-11 executable mcrt0.o: PDP-11 executable not stripped tmgb: very old PDP-11 archive -- Stuart Norris norris(a)mech.eng.usyd.edu.au Mechanical Engineering,University of Sydney,NSW 2006 wk:+(61 2) 9351-2272 http://www.maths.unsw.edu.au/~norris hm:+(61 2) 9326-5276 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA59473 for pups-liszt; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:16:57 +1000 (EST) >From Sergey Svishchev <svs(a)ropnet.ru> Mon Aug 30 21:15:51 1999 Received: from d32-179.ropnet.ru (svs(a)d32-179.ropnet.ru [212.42.32.179]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA59469 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:16:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from d32-179.ropnet.ru by d32-179.ropnet.ru with for delivery to "pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au" id AA0209; Mon, 30 Aug 99 15:15:52 +0400 Message-Id: <19990830151551.22833@firepower> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:15:51 +0400 From: Sergey Svishchev <svs(a)ropnet.ru> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Source of early Unix information Mail-Followup-To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au References: <199908280450.VAA25771(a)gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <199908300059.KAA11005(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89 In-Reply-To: <199908300059.KAA11005(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:59:52AM +1000 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:59:52AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > I've also got 3 9-track tapes sitting here. One's labelled `News'; the > others have labels: > > 1600bpi tar > OLDNEWS ARCHIVE (aus,comp,mod,net,news) > 25 feb 87 > > I might try reading them in the next few days. If you do manage to read them, could you make INFO-VAX messages (if there are any, of course) available? I'd like to merge them with other INFO-VAX archives, for completeness. (I run a WebGlimpse-based searchable archive of classiccmp and INFO-VAX, URL below.) -- Sergey Svishchev -- <svs(a)ropnet.ru> -- http://mail-index.nice.ru/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA60361 for pups-liszt; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:45:57 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert Harker, 408-295-9432" <harker(a)harker.com> Tue Aug 31 00:45:04 1999 Received: from firewall.harker.com (IDENT:root@firewall.harker.com [192.102.231.125]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA60357 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:45:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from harker.harker.com (harker.harker.com [172.16.0.1]) by firewall.harker.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA32678; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 07:51:29 -0700 Received: (from harker@localhost) by harker.harker.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id HAA01191; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 07:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 07:45:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Harker, 408-295-9432" <harker(a)harker.com> Message-Id: <199908301445.HAA01191(a)harker.harker.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Older versions of SunOS Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Visited your web page and looked at your page for SunOS and Solaris I can add more history: I believe the first public release of SunOS was 0.9 so I will start there SunOS Aprox Date Comments _____ __________ _____________________________ 0.9 1983 First relase for the oldest Sun1 CPU boards As I recall the Sun1 CPU boards were 68000 boards (Maybe 68010?) with 256Kb ram on board. This relase was a quick and dirty port of AT&T's version of UNIX, not BSD. No window system. I ran the very last tech support workstation running SunOS 0.9, a machine called onefive (the name as I recall referred to the hardware. 1.0 1984 (1983?) First relase for the new Sun2 CPU boards. 68010 CPU and no memory on the mother board Introduced Sun's SunTools window system. 1.1 1984-03-12 From SunOS 1.1 Installation Guide First stable SunOS release (or so I was told as we upgraded systems to 1.1) Required Rev N PROMS on the mother board 2.0 1985-04-15 From "System Administration for the Sun Workstation" Revision history: "First Customer release of this System Administration Manual" Support for Sun2/50 and 2/160 VME based workstations. First general release of NFS and NIS 2.3 1986-03-21 From SunOS 2.3 Upgrade tape (Photocopy of Proof tape from SQA) 3.0 1986-02-17 From "Writing Device Drivers for the Sun Workstation" Supports new Sun 3 68020 architecture. 4.0 1988-05-09 From "SunOS 4.0 Change Notes" "Key improvements incorporated by SunOS 4.0 include: * New system architecture that promotes system resource sharing and portability across different hardware platforms. * Share library facility that reduces program size and swap space requirements. * Resizable swap area for diskless clients * Secure networking through the use of RPC (Remote Procedure Call). * NFS (Network File System) replaces ND (Network Disk) for diskless client systems. The Effect of this is to make system administration easier and more flexible. * All of the $.3 BSD network changes are incorporated including TCP (Transmission Control Protocol) and IP (Internet Protocol) performance improvements and subnetting. * Automount facility that automatically mounts accessible remote filesystems as needed." Supports new Sun 4 SPARC architecture. 4.0.3 1989-04-24 From "Documentation Erata and Changes Pages For SunOS Release 4.0.3" 4.0.3c 1989-06-06 From "SPARCstation-1 SunOS 4.0.3 Sun-4c Release Notes" 4.1 1990-03-27 From SunOS 4.1 "Installing The SunOS" Hope this helps to fill out the timeline. RLH > Generate sendmail.cf files using the web. Check out our web based < > sendmail.cf file generator: http://www.harker.com/gen.sendmail.cf < > For info about our "Managing Internet Mail, Setting Up and Trouble < > Shooting sendmail and DNS" and a schedule of dates and locations, < > please send email to info(a)harker.com, or visit www.harker.com < Robert Harker Harker Systems Sendmail and TCP/IP Network Training 1180 Hester Ave Sendmail, Network, and Sysadmin Consulting San Jose, CA 95126 harker(a)harker.com 408-295-6239

25 years, 8 months

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Re: Primeval C compilers

by msokolov＠baryon.trailing-edge.com

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > Hi all, > I also asked Dennis if we could put his two old `primeval' C > compilers into the archive. He said: > > > I don't have a problem with copying the compilers, more or > > less as a mirror. I wonder if anyone will try to revive them? So are they now on minnie or not? If they are, then where? I just looked and couldn't find them. -- Michael Sokolov Special Agent International Free Computing Task Force Harhan Computer Operation Facility ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)baryon.trailing-edge.com

25 years, 8 months

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Re: 4.3-QJ0 installation problem (was: no subject)

by msokolov＠baryon.trailing-edge.com

(I'm Cc'ing this to the PUPS list because the original message was, but this discussion belongs on the Quasijarus list. Please don't Cc follow-ups to PUPS, instead everyone who is interested in this discussion please send: subscribe quasijarus to Majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> wrote: > I've been trying to get 4.3BSD to run on my newly acquired MicroVAXII. > I followed the Ultrix route described in the docs in the pups tree. > > I get as far as: > > [...] > > 4.3 BSD Quasijarus UNIX #0: Fri Dec 25 14:22:17 EST 1998 > msokolov@polygon:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC > > [...] > > ra0 at uda0 slave 0: MICROP , size = 1303998 sectors OK, good, I see you've labeled your system disk. > ra1 at uda0 slave 1trap type 6, code = 2, pc = 80031b1c > panic: Arithmetic fault OK, trap 6 code 2 is integer divide by zero on the VAX. My obvious guess is that the disk has a garbage label on it and when the kernel tries to interpret it, it divides by zero and blows up. A garbage label is something worse than no label at all, because the label structure has a magic at the beginning, and trust me, the kernel does check it and it does not blow up with a divide by zero when block 0 is all zeros. Wilko, what exactly do you have in the label block of disk 1? If you've been following my installation instructions to the letter, that disk would be your Ultrix disk. My installation instructions call for labeling the BSD disk, but not the Ultrix disk. In fact, putting a BSD label on an Ultrix bootable disk would render it unbootable, as Ultrix has boot code where BSD has the label. This means that normally when someone follows my Ultrix-based installation procedure, BSD will simply view the Ultrix disk as unlabeled and make it one big partition a. You obviously have something else in there. > Exactly the same thing happens when I use 4.3reno instead of the Quasijarus > kit. Well, this at least means that this is not yet another one of my own bugs, so that's the good news. :-) But sure, the kernel could do with a few more label sanity checks so that it prints a nice error message instead of blowing up. I'll look into it. -- Michael Sokolov Special Agent International Free Computing Task Force Harhan Computer Operation Facility ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)baryon.trailing-edge.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA47798 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:58:50 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Aug 28 13:58:44 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA47794 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:58:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id NAA06231 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:58:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908280358.NAA06231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: dmr's comments on releasing old code To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:58:44 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Dennis Ritchie just emailed me with a URL about Dan Bricklin's efforts to release his original VisiCalc: http://www.bricklin.com/history/vcpostingreactions.htm The URL contains a link to an email from Dennis about his attempts to get the older UNIX source code, and the primeval C compilers, released: http://www.bricklin.com/history/dmrletter.htm Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA47821 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:03:48 +1000 (EST) >From Martin Crehan <mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net> Sat Aug 28 14:03:30 1999 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA47817 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:03:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from gort (1Cust102.tnt2.covina.ca.da.uu.net [208.254.25.102]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA13229 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199908280403.VAA13229(a)gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Martin Crehan <mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net> Subject: Dennis Ritchie letter on releasing early Unix Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I ran across an interesting account from Dennis Ritchie on the process he went through to get us the SCO liscense for Ancient Unix: http://www.bricklin.com/history/dmrletter.htm Martin Crehan 9 PM PDT, August 27, 1999 mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA49114 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:08:36 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Aug 28 21:08:29 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA49110 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:08:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA07821 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:08:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908281108.VAA07821(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Primeval C compilers To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:08:29 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, I also asked Dennis if we could put his two old `primeval' C compilers into the archive. He said: I don't have a problem with copying the compilers, more or less as a mirror. I wonder if anyone will try to revive them? I've had a go at reviving them today, using V5 cc and tools. It's a real PITA I can assure you. I've got the last1120c compiler compiled, but I can't get it to compile itself. As soon as it sees line 16 in c00.c i = namsiz; it complains that the LHS isn't an Lvalue. I think I'll stop now, my brain is hurting too much :-) Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA50367 for pups-liszt; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 02:46:23 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 8 months

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None

by dmr＠plan9.bell-labs.com

To: Subject:, Re:, The, dsw, man, page, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au , pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 01:08:44 -0400 From: dmr To: Subject:, Re:, The, dsw, man, page, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The A-news archive "man page" article that Fischer retrieved from Usenet of 1981, describing the original dsw, is authentic so far as I can remember. As the article suggests, the displayed man page is a construction, and didn't exist as such, but it indeed described what the ancestral program did. By a year or so later, as documented in the First Edition manual, the behavior and the name were already referred to as "ancient." My, how time passes. Dennis Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA42243 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:16:58 +1000 (EST) >From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Fri Aug 27 19:47:02 1999 Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA42231; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:16:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id LAA30941; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:53:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA31089; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:47:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Message-Id: <199908270947.LAA31089(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PUPS Users Mailing List), quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Quasijarus BSD Users Mailing List) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:47:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko(a)freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk [this was mistakenly sent to pupswork yesterday. sorry...] Hi there, I've been trying to get 4.3BSD to run on my newly acquired MicroVAXII. I followed the Ultrix route described in the docs in the pups tree. I get as far as: >>> boot dua0 2..1..0.. loading boot Boot : /vmunix 327184+102656+130352 start 0x23a8 4.3 BSD Quasijarus UNIX #0: Fri Dec 25 14:22:17 EST 1998 msokolov@polygon:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC real mem = 16773120 SYSPTSIZE limits number of buffers to 112 avail mem = 14949376 using 112 buffers containing 917504 bytes of memory MicroVAX-II tmscp0 at uba0 csr 174500 vec 774, ipl 15 tms0 at tmscp0 slave 0 uda0 at uba0 csr 172150 vec 770, ipl 14 uda0: version 5 model 13 uda0: DMA burst size set to 4 ra0 at uda0 slave 0: MICROP , size = 1303998 sectors ra1 at uda0 slave 1trap type 6, code = 2, pc = 80031b1c panic: Arithmetic fault syncing disks... done Exactly the same thing happens when I use 4.3reno instead of the Quasijarus kit. Any ideas? Wilko -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org

25 years, 9 months

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Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11

by A. P. Garcia

> I'm sure Bob Supnik would appreciate your changes. I have nothing against the Supnik emulator whatsoever. I use it all the time. Before passing these changes on, however, you might want to verify that the licenses are compatible; begemot P11 is copylefted. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA40147 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:02:08 +1000 (EST) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Fri Aug 27 10:01:41 1999 Received: from mail.execpc.com (dantooine-2-183.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.139.121]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA40139 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:01:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 259 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Aug 1999 00:01:41 -0000 Date: 27 Aug 1999 00:01:41 -0000 Message-ID: <19990827000141.258.qmail(a)os-factory.whatever.localnet> From: "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > It was a change to geni.c. The Begemot I have (2.3) had apparent mods > already done for FreeBSD, but I still had to hack geni to resolv the > underscores. it was a simple change though, as I recall. If it's not too much trouble, could you please give us more specific details? If not, I'll try taking a shot at it; I want to compile this under FreeBSD. Thank you. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA41334 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:09:14 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 9 months

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Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11

by pups＠mrynet.com

> Hi - Hi - :) > > From: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) > > > >Actually,I had resolved issue of linking and the prepended underscores before. > > With a change to 'geni.c' or by editing the instab.s file? It was a change to geni.c. The Begemot I have (2.3) had apparent mods already done for FreeBSD, but I still had to hack geni to resolv the underscores. it was a simple change though, as I recall. > > For example, run with -b from the command line, it returns the shell prompt > > almost immediately. Otherwise, when booting it simply indicates: > > DCOK = 1 asserted > > Yep - that's what I was seeing until I regenerated the instab.s file > by running 'geni'. The emulator would compile and link with a > manually edited instab.s file but simply would not run correctly. I tried the patches against the virgin begemot 2.3 code, and I'm still seeing the unresolved's due to underscores. Just FYI that they don't apply to the Flea-3.0-CURRENT. Thanks HEAPs tho ;) -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA38512 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:36:18 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Aug 27 02:34:39 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA38503 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:36:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA23443; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:34:41 +0200 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:34:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 In-Reply-To: <m3iu63plyh.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990826183419.23125A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 25 Aug 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > I would love to find an arrangement that makes it possible to run an > emulated 2.11bsd system with large-capacity RP06 images.. that would > allow one to have around a quarter-gig of disk space. :) RP06 are 176 MB... :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

25 years, 9 months

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Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11

by Joerg B. Micheel

On Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 03:08:53PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > ! # define TINTERVAL 16 /* msecs between clock ticks */ > ! /* Should be 16.666666 for US 60hz */ That's correct. I believe there are also problems with p11 missing a couple of timer interrupts. All of the complaints are entirely appropriate, the whole thing needs major cleanup. I hope one of us will finally get around doing some serious work on it again, soon. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA54368 for pups-liszt; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:19:58 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Aug 26 09:53:30 1999 Received: from iaehv.iae.nl (iaehv.IAE.nl [194.151.64.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA54356 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:19:40 +1000 (EST) Received: by iaehv.iae.nl (Postfix, from userid 0) id 1520720F92; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:19:18 +0200 (CEST) X-UIDL: 66c16149f459f86a00562537e9612891 To: pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl Received: from minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.160]) by iaehv.iae.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03BD20F6D for <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 02:06:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA34673 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA34669 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:36 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id JAA07610; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908252353.JAA07610(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 In-Reply-To: <199908252113.OAA15059(a)mrynet.com> from "S. Akmentins-Teilors" at "Aug 25, 1999 2:13:40 pm" X-Old-To: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:30 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by S. Akmentins-Teilors: [Supnik emulator improvements] > Is anyone else out the hacking it up and interested in sharing > any work? > -skots I'm sure Bob Supnik would appreciate your changes. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA54379 for pups-liszt; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:20:04 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 9 months

1
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Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11

by pups＠mrynet.com

> > From: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) > > THe other change I had to make was to 'devices.c' to speed up the > clock - it's still not right for a PPro-200 but is better than it > was (the clock was running far too slow, now it's just ~10% too slow). The same similar tweak on Supnik has me to within seconds on the hour. They're all gonna start losing it under load anyways, but that's life when running an emulator under non-RT ;) > > And if anyone has managed to get the Begemot emulator > > working on recent FreeBSD-4.0-CURRENT versions, I'd be > > Not FreeBSD but if you're getting bit by the same thing I did earlier > under another BSD that switched from a.out to ELF the changes below > may be useful to you. Actually, I had resolved issue of linking and the prepended underscores before. The compile has always been clean, but the program simply doesn't work. For example, run with -b from the command line, it returns the shell prompt almost immediately. Otherwise, when booting it simply indicates: DCOK = 1 asserted and goes back to the emulator prompt. That happens regardless of disk image used, etc... I can't effect anything other than these exhibitions. Perhaps somewith with access to 4.0-CURRENT, and who has worked with the code itself could find the time to figured it out? ;) -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA34673 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:48 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Aug 26 09:53:30 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA34669 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:36 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id JAA07610; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908252353.JAA07610(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 In-Reply-To: <199908252113.OAA15059(a)mrynet.com> from "S. Akmentins-Teilors" at "Aug 25, 1999 2:13:40 pm" To: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:30 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by S. Akmentins-Teilors: [Supnik emulator improvements] > Is anyone else out the hacking it up and interested in sharing > any work? > -skots I'm sure Bob Supnik would appreciate your changes. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA36011 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:26:58 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Aug 26 15:26:27 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA36007 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:26:51 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA20951 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:26:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199908260526.WAA20951(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) > > The same similar tweak on Supnik has me to within seconds on the hour. They're > all gonna start losing it under load anyways, but that's life when running > an emulator under non-RT ;) Actually my problem with the Supnik emulator is that the clock runs _very_ fast - the "PDP11" ends up being hours ahead of the real time after recompiling a kernel or two. p11 on the other hand tends to run slow - tweeking the device.c value was aimed at speeding up the clock. >Actually,I had resolved issue of linking and the prepended underscores before. With a change to 'geni.c' or by editing the instab.s file? > For example, run with -b from the command line, it returns the shell prompt > almost immediately. Otherwise, when booting it simply indicates: > DCOK = 1 asserted Yep - that's what I was seeing until I regenerated the instab.s file by running 'geni'. The emulator would compile and link with a manually edited instab.s file but simply would not run correctly. Since the same RP06 image worked with the Supnik emulator I knew it wasn't in the 2.11BSD area. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA36475 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:02:07 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 9 months

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Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11

by pups＠mrynet.com

> staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) writes: > > So far, I've replaced the KL11 code with a DL11 driver that > > handles four lines. Additionally, I stole the networked > > tty_net driver from the begemot which now provides telnet > > access to all four ports. Additionally, I'm working on a > > DZ-11 driver as-we-speak, and will do the DEQNA next. > > These four ports work great on the RSTS/E and 2.11 images > > I have. > > Really! So far I have had no luck getting Supnik 2.3 to work with the > elfje rl02 images on the PUPS archive. I've always had to use the > significantly-hacked-up 2.2 emulator instead. What did you change > and/or what disk images are you using? I've changed nothing at all really as far as 2.11 goes. Worked just dandy even before my hacking. > I would love to find an arrangement that makes it possible to run an > emulated 2.11bsd system with large-capacity RP06 images.. that would > allow one to have around a quarter-gig of disk space. :) The complexities of begemot, and the relative ease of use of Supnik was the driving force behind my sticking it out with Supnik. I figured I'd make it do what I want, since I could make it work in the first place. Since I'm into the actual hardware emulation, as well as device drivers, it is fulfilling my need here until I ever get a real PDP-11 again. -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA34419 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:17:34 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 9 months

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Modified Supnik emulator for the 11

by staylor＠mrynet.com

Hi folks. Having had absolutely no luck getting the Begemot emulator to work under FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT, I've been modifying the Supnik 2.3d emulator for the pdp-11. So far, I've replaced the KL11 code with a DL11 driver that handles four lines. Additionally, I stole the networked tty_net driver from the begemot which now provides telnet access to all four ports. Additionally, I'm working on a DZ-11 driver as-we-speak, and will do the DEQNA next. These four ports work great on the RSTS/E and 2.11 images I have. As well, I've tweaked the clock timing to significantly improve timekeeping for my machine. Also, I have been modifying an ANSI magtape util package (ansir/ansiw/survey) to deal with the mt images that the supnik package produces. Makes for easy exchange into RSTS, etc. Is anyone else out the hacking it up and interested in sharing any work? And if anyone has managed to get the Begemot emulator working on recent FreeBSD-4.0-CURRENT versions, I'd be grateful if you could share the information and changes with me. Thanks and regards, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA33694 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:55:06 +1000 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Thu Aug 26 07:52:22 1999 Received: from shelbyville.oai.com (IDENT:root@[204.57.59.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA33684 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:54:57 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by shelbyville.oai.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08490; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:52:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 References: <199908252113.OAA15059(a)mrynet.com> Original-Sender: lennox(a)alcita.com Organization: Alcita Technologies, Inc. Date: 25 Aug 1999 17:52:22 -0400 In-Reply-To: staylor(a)mrynet.com's message of "Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:13:40 +0000" Message-ID: <m3iu63plyh.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) writes: > > So far, I've replaced the KL11 code with a DL11 driver that > handles four lines. Additionally, I stole the networked > tty_net driver from the begemot which now provides telnet > access to all four ports. Additionally, I'm working on a > DZ-11 driver as-we-speak, and will do the DEQNA next. > These four ports work great on the RSTS/E and 2.11 images > I have. Really! So far I have had no luck getting Supnik 2.3 to work with the elfje rl02 images on the PUPS archive. I've always had to use the significantly-hacked-up 2.2 emulator instead. What did you change and/or what disk images are you using? I would love to find an arrangement that makes it possible to run an emulated 2.11bsd system with large-capacity RP06 images.. that would allow one to have around a quarter-gig of disk space. :) -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist Invest in America -- buy a Congressman! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA33801 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:12:04 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Aug 26 08:08:53 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA33797 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:11:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA18433 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:08:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199908252208.PAA18433(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Scott - Howdy! > From: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) > Having had absolutely no luck getting the Begemot emulator > to work under FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT, I've been modifying the Hmmm, the Begemot emulator is difficult to set up due to an inscrutable configfile format but it runs here under BSD/OS 4.0.1 after making a couple 'tweeks'. I wonder if the problems you're having are due to FreeBSD switching to ELF. At one time BSD/OS used a.out also and "P11" built/ran just fine - the the OS switched to ELF and P11 would no longer build. I had thought simply editing the instab.s would be enough but after doing that P11 wouldn't run right at all. What I did was add a "-u" option to 'geni' and then regenerate the instab.s file ("geni -u ...") _without_ the underscore characters present. The compiler no longer generates leading '_' characters so having them in the instab.s file causes problems. Regenerating and assembling instab.s cleared up all the problems I was having. Below are the changes I've made to P11 - some are specific to getting the various IOprogs to run under BSD/OS but the changes to geni.c are OS independent. THe other change I had to make was to 'devices.c' to speed up the clock - it's still not right for a PPro-200 but is better than it was (the clock was running far too slow, now it's just ~10% too slow). > And if anyone has managed to get the Begemot emulator > working on recent FreeBSD-4.0-CURRENT versions, I'd be Not FreeBSD but if you're getting bit by the same thing I did earlier under another BSD that switched from a.out to ELF the changes below may be useful to you. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com *** ./Utils/geni.c.old Sat Oct 11 14:01:39 1997 --- ./Utils/geni.c Thu Aug 19 21:07:56 1999 *************** *** 49,54 **** --- 49,55 ---- int code; /* current instruction code */ int ccc; /* current microinstruction count */ int coo = -1; /* what output to generate */ + int no_ul = 0; /* Don't generate leading _ */ int profiler_output; char *ul; /* the undeline character, if needed */ char *ofile; /* output file name */ *************** *** 123,131 **** int opt; set_argv0(argv[0]); ! while((opt = getopt(argc, argv, "vmpo:")) != EOF) switch(opt) { case 'v': verbose++; break; --- 124,135 ---- int opt; set_argv0(argv[0]); ! while((opt = getopt(argc, argv, "uvmpo:")) != EOF) switch(opt) { + case 'u': + no_ul++; + break; case 'v': verbose++; break; *************** *** 275,284 **** tab_out_i386as() { printf("\t.file\t\"%s\"\n", ifile); ! printf("\t.globl\t_instab\n"); printf(".text\n"); printf("\t.align\t2\n"); ! printf("_instab:\n"); for(code = 0; code < 0x10000; code++) { printf("\t.long\t"); for(ccc = 0; ccc < 4; ccc++) --- 279,288 ---- tab_out_i386as() { printf("\t.file\t\"%s\"\n", ifile); ! printf("\t.globl\t%s\n", no_ul ? "instab" : "_instab"); printf(".text\n"); printf("\t.align\t2\n"); ! printf("%s:\n", no_ul ? "instab" : "_instab"); for(code = 0; code < 0x10000; code++) { printf("\t.long\t"); for(ccc = 0; ccc < 4; ccc++) *************** *** 632,637 **** --- 636,646 ---- switch(coo) { case COO_i386as: + if (no_ul) + { + ul = ""; + break; + } case COO_sun_as: case COO_i386_aout: ul = "_"; *** ./IOProgs/epp_bpf.c.old Sat Oct 11 14:02:28 1997 --- ./IOProgs/epp_bpf.c Wed Jun 17 22:16:50 1998 *************** *** 341,347 **** panic("read(bpf): %s", strerror(errno)); bpf_ptr = bpf_buf; bpf_end = bpf_buf + ret; ! INFO("read_input: bpf_read = %d.\n", ret); } /* --- 341,347 ---- panic("read(bpf): %s", strerror(errno)); bpf_ptr = bpf_buf; bpf_end = bpf_buf + ret; ! info("read_input: bpf_read = %d.\n", ret); } /* *************** *** 351,357 **** bpf_ptr = bpf_ptr + BPF_WORDALIGN(h->bh_hdrlen + h->bh_caplen); if(h->bh_caplen < h->bh_datalen) { ! INFO("caplen(%lu) < datalen(%lu) ??? - packet dropped.\n", h->bh_caplen, h->bh_datalen); ret = 0; } else { *pbuf = (u_char *)h + h->bh_hdrlen; --- 351,357 ---- bpf_ptr = bpf_ptr + BPF_WORDALIGN(h->bh_hdrlen + h->bh_caplen); if(h->bh_caplen < h->bh_datalen) { ! info("caplen(%lu) < datalen(%lu) ??? - packet dropped.\n", h->bh_caplen, h->bh_datalen); ret = 0; } else { *pbuf = (u_char *)h + h->bh_hdrlen; *************** *** 360,366 **** *more = bpf_ptr < bpf_end; ! INFO("read_input: %d. (more=%d)\n", ret, *more); return ret; } --- 360,366 ---- *more = bpf_ptr < bpf_end; ! info("read_input: %d. (more=%d)\n", ret, *more); return ret; } *** ./IOProgs/epp_tun.c.old Sat Jan 31 02:52:26 1998 --- ./IOProgs/epp_tun.c Tue Aug 17 19:47:37 1999 *************** *** 13,19 **** --- 13,21 ---- # include <sys/ioctl.h> # include <sys/select.h> # include <net/if.h> + #ifndef __bsdi__ # include <net/if_var.h> + #endif # include <net/if_tun.h> # include "epp.h" # include "../libutil/util.h" *************** *** 44,50 **** argv += optind; if(argc != 3) ! panic("need one arg"); parse_ether(my_ether, argv[1]); parse_ether(other_ether, argv[2]); --- 46,52 ---- argv += optind; if(argc != 3) ! panic("need two args"); parse_ether(my_ether, argv[1]); parse_ether(other_ether, argv[2]); *** ./Config/M-i386-bsdi.old Sun Oct 12 07:10:03 1997 --- ./Config/M-i386-bsdi Wed Jun 17 20:50:19 1998 *************** *** 27,33 **** * define the cookie for the geni program (look into Utils/geni.c) * If you want geni output an object file (see later) this cookie * is used only for the profiler output */ ! /* # define MAKE_GENIS */ # define MAKE_GENIE_COOKIE "i386-as" /* define command to set data limit to K kilobytes, if you need it */ --- 27,33 ---- * define the cookie for the geni program (look into Utils/geni.c) * If you want geni output an object file (see later) this cookie * is used only for the profiler output */ ! # define MAKE_GENIS # define MAKE_GENIE_COOKIE "i386-as" /* define command to set data limit to K kilobytes, if you need it */ *************** *** 43,49 **** /* if you have the gnu libbfd and liberty you can geni have to output * object code instead of C or assembler. You must define the following: */ ! # define MAKE_HAVE_LIBBFD /* if you have it, you may have to set up the right paths. */ # define MAKE_CC_BFD_INCL -I/usr/gnu/include --- 43,49 ---- /* if you have the gnu libbfd and liberty you can geni have to output * object code instead of C or assembler. You must define the following: */ ! /* # define MAKE_HAVE_LIBBFD */ /* if you have it, you may have to set up the right paths. */ # define MAKE_CC_BFD_INCL -I/usr/gnu/include *** ./device.c.old Sat Oct 11 14:17:24 1997 --- ./device.c Thu Aug 19 23:05:53 1999 *************** *** 7,14 **** * generic device support */ ! # define TINTERVAL 20 /* msecs between clock ticks */ ! typedef struct Async Async; typedef struct Timer Timer; --- 7,14 ---- * generic device support */ ! # define TINTERVAL 16 /* msecs between clock ticks */ ! /* Should be 16.666666 for US 60hz */ typedef struct Async Async; typedef struct Timer Timer; Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA33844 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:18:19 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Aug 26 08:17:56 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA33839 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:18:11 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA18523 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:17:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199908252217.PAA18523(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> > Really! So far I have had no luck getting Supnik 2.3 to work with the > elfje rl02 images on the PUPS archive. I've always had to use the Hmm, I've been using Supnik's 2.3 emulator (on and off - I prefer running the real 11/73 though most of the time) and now that "vi" works (there was a bug in the "div" instruction which Bob fixed not all that long ago for 2.3) the emulator's more useful than it was. > significantly-hacked-up 2.2 emulator instead. What did you change > and/or what disk images are you using? You might try using the 2.11 images from the PUPS CD instead. Create a "tape file" (the instructions are in the 2.11 distribution directory) and then use a "toggle in" bootstrap for the "mt" device. The config file I use for this is: set cpu 22B set cpu 2048K set rp0 rp06 set rl0 rl02 set rl1 rl02 set rl2 rl02 set rl3 rl02 set tm0 locked at rp0 rp0 at rl0 root.rl02 at rl1 usr1.rl02 at rl2 usr2.rl02 at rl3 usr3.rl02 at rk0 junk0.rk05 at rk1 junk1.rk05 at rk2 junk2.rk05 at rk3 junk3.rk05 at rk4 junk4.rk05 at rk5 junk5.rk05 at rk6 junk6.rk05 at rk7 junk7.rk05 at tm0 mt0 at tm1 mt1 # at tm1 /zip/mt0 Place your "2.11 boot tape file" (the 'makesimtape' program which is also available in the archive and on the CD is used to create Supnik emulator tape files) in to the file "mt0" and then follow the instructions in the setup/install documentation on how to boot a tape if you don't have tape bootroms (it's less than a dozen instructions you need to toggle in the octal for). Oh - and since the "RP06" disk is just an image to the host computer (to the PDP-11 it is a RP06 ;)) the image IS interchangeable between emulators - I've used the same RP06 image under both (obviously not at the same time) the Supnik and Begemot emulators. Works fine. The biggest problem with the Supnik emulator is that the clock runs far far too fast (at least with a PPro-200 running the emulator) and after running for an extended period of time the PDP-11 system ends up several hours in the future. Steven Schultz sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA33945 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:25:13 +1000 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Aug 26 08:25:27 1999 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA33939 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:25:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id KAA11280; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:25:27 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:25:27 +1200 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, joerg(a)begemot.org Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11 Message-ID: <19990826102527.A11262(a)begemot.org> References: <199908252208.PAA18433(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199908252208.PAA18433(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 03:08:53PM -0700 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 03:08:53PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > ! # define TINTERVAL 16 /* msecs between clock ticks */ > ! /* Should be 16.666666 for US 60hz */ That's correct. I believe there are also problems with p11 missing a couple of timer interrupts. All of the complaints are entirely appropriate, the whole thing needs major cleanup. I hope one of us will finally get around doing some serious work on it again, soon. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA34224 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:57:38 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 9 months

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Re: V7M

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

I still have the tape and documentation (dated 31/1/81). I think most of the work was done by Fred Canter, with help from Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettnet Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA37978 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:41:30 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Aug 9 09:41:23 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA37974 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:41:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id JAA83043 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:41:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908082341.JAA83043(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: V7M In-Reply-To: <199908082201.IAA05958(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> from "johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au" at "Aug 9, 1999 8: 1:31 am" To: Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:41:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au: > > I still have the tape and documentation (dated 31/1/81). I think most of the >work was done by Fred Canter, with help from Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettnet Yes, I had some email with Fred last year. He was surprised that anybody still cared :-) Norman, I thought I updated the archive to say that V7M came out of DEC. Where did I miss??! Also, no word yet from Keith Bostic w.r.t the Unix mallet. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA38173 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:15:58 +1000 (EST) >From Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com> Mon Aug 9 10:15:45 1999 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (firewall-user(a)smtp.sw.oz.au [203.31.96.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA38169 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:15:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from swh.sw.oz.au (swh.sw.oz.au [192.41.203.42]) by smtp.sw.oz.au (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07722; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:15:45 +1000 (EST) Received: (from vance@localhost) by swh.sw.oz.au (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA18778; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:15:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:15:45 +1000 From: Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com> To: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com> Cc: grog(a)lemis.com.au, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Unix mallet .... Message-ID: <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com> References: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199908060548.PAA16635(a)smtp.sw.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199908060548.PAA16635(a)smtp.sw.oz.au>; from Peter Chubb on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 03:48:25PM +1000 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 03:48:25PM +1000, Peter Chubb wrote: : >>>>> "Warren" == Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes: : : Warren> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, : Warren> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: : : Warren> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic : : : A Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive (named after Anatole : Mallet, a Frenchman). 1954 would have been in the midst of their : heydays. Often used for hauling logs. Now, how did UNIX get : involved???? 1954 predates UNIX as we know it, so it's probably : something else or a spoof.... I thought I saw in somebody's signature that Unix was a trademark in Spain (or somewhere) for something not computer-related. Perhaps that might be relevant? -- Christopher Vance Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA38247 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:26:28 +1000 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Mon Aug 9 10:26:33 1999 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA38243 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:26:20 +1000 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id MAA70243; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:26:34 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:26:33 +1200 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com> Cc: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com>, grog(a)lemis.com.au, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, joerg(a)begemot.org Subject: Re: Unix mallet .... Message-ID: <19990809122633.A70235(a)begemot.org> References: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199908060548.PAA16635(a)smtp.sw.oz.au> <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com>; from Christopher Vance on Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 10:15:45AM +1000 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 10:15:45AM +1000, Christopher Vance wrote: > On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 03:48:25PM +1000, Peter Chubb wrote: > : >>>>> "Warren" == Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes: > : > : Warren> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, > : Warren> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: > : > : Warren> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic > : > : > : A Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive (named after Anatole > : Mallet, a Frenchman). 1954 would have been in the midst of their > : heydays. Often used for hauling logs. Now, how did UNIX get > : involved???? 1954 predates UNIX as we know it, so it's probably > : something else or a spoof.... > > I thought I saw in somebody's signature that Unix was a trademark in > Spain (or somewhere) for something not computer-related. Perhaps that > might be relevant? In Germany UNIX Rent is a car rental company. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA38292 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:28:52 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 9 10:28:37 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA38288 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:28:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA28037; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:58:38 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA29375; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:58:37 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:58:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com> Cc: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com>, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Unix mallet .... Message-ID: <19990809095837.F22360(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199908060548.PAA16635(a)smtp.sw.oz.au> <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com>; from Christopher Vance on Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 10:15:45AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 9 August 1999 at 10:15:45 +1000, Christopher Vance wrote: > On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 03:48:25PM +1000, Peter Chubb wrote: >>>>>>> "Warren" == Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes: >> >> Warren> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, >> Warren> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: >> >> Warren> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic >> >> >> A Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive (named after Anatole >> Mallet, a Frenchman). 1954 would have been in the midst of their >> heydays. Often used for hauling logs. Now, how did UNIX get >> involved???? 1954 predates UNIX as we know it, so it's probably >> something else or a spoof.... > > I thought I saw in somebody's signature that Unix was a trademark in > Spain (or somewhere) for something not computer-related. Perhaps that > might be relevant? No, it was in Austria. I've forgotten what it was a trademark for, but it wasn't computer-related. In Germany, there was a car hire company called UNIX Rent. I always wanted to hire a car from them, but never got round to it. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA38462 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:41:03 +1000 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Mon Aug 9 10:41:05 1999 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA38456 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:40:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id MAA70288; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:41:05 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:41:05 +1200 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Cc: Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com>, Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com>, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, joerg(a)begemot.org Subject: Re: Unix mallet .... Message-ID: <19990809124105.A70277(a)begemot.org> References: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199908060548.PAA16635(a)smtp.sw.oz.au> <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com> <19990809095837.F22360(a)freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <19990809095837.F22360(a)freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 09:58:37AM +0930 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 09:58:37AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > No, it was in Austria. I've forgotten what it was a trademark for, > but it wasn't computer-related. In Germany, there was a car hire > company called UNIX Rent. I always wanted to hire a car from them, > but never got round to it. And now there is no reason to rent UNIX if you can have it for freeBSD. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA38476 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:41:23 +1000 (EST) >From Stuart Norris <norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> Mon Aug 9 10:41:16 1999 Received: from orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au (orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au [129.78.216.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA38470 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:41:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (norris@localhost) by orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA22070 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:41:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au: norris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:41:16 +1000 (EST) From: Stuart Norris <norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> X-Sender: norris(a)orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: The dsw man page In-Reply-To: <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com> Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990809103649.24488A-100000(a)orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Whilst we are discussing cryptic comments, can anyone explain the dsw man page in the 5th and 6th Edition manuals; BUGS The name dsw is a carryover from the ancient past. Its ety- mology is amusing. -- Stuart Norris norris(a)mech.eng.usyd.edu.au Mechanical Engineering,University of Sydney,NSW 2006 wk:+(61 2) 9351-2272 http://www.maths.unsw.edu.au/~norris hm:+(61 2) 9326-5276 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA38563 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:47:46 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Aug 9 10:47:38 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA38558 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:47:39 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id KAA00491; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:47:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908090047.KAA00491(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: The dsw man page In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990809103649.24488A-100000(a)orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> from Stuart Norris at "Aug 9, 1999 10:41:16 am" To: norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au (Stuart Norris) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:47:38 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Stuart Norris: > > Whilst we are discussing cryptic comments, can anyone explain the dsw man > page in the 5th and 6th Edition manuals; > > BUGS > The name dsw is a carryover from the ancient past. Its ety- > mology is amusing. Delete using switches, from memory. You toggled in an i-node number on the front panel, then ran dsw to delete that i-node. A more authorative answer, I'm sure, can be found from the 1st Ed manuals on Dennis' homepage: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html. Um, just checked, it doesn't say anything about switches. I will try to dig up a reference to the `switches' story. I have seen it somewhere. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA38687 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:56:02 +1000 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> Mon Aug 9 10:54:37 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA38683 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:55:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 24065 invoked from network); 9 Aug 1999 11:03:51 +1000 Received: from trowel.geac.com.au (203.1.26.189) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 9 Aug 1999 11:03:50 +1000 Received: (qmail 8534 invoked from network); 9 Aug 1999 11:07:17 +1000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au (202.6.67.163) by trowel.geac.com.au with SMTP; 9 Aug 1999 11:07:17 +1000 Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au?r with ESMTP id KAA26108; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:54:37 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: fgh.geac.com.au: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:54:37 +1000 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: Stuart Norris <norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: The dsw man page In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990809103649.24488A-100000(a)orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9908091053250.25366-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Stuart Norris wrote: > Whilst we are discussing cryptic comments, can anyone explain the dsw man > page in the 5th and 6th Edition manuals; > > BUGS > The name dsw is a carryover from the ancient past. Its ety- > mology is amusing. Formal name: delete from switch register (you put the i-number of the file in the switch register). Informal name: Delete Sh*t Work. -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA38892 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:31:10 +1000 (EST) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Mon Aug 9 11:38:03 1999 Received: from mumble.uchicago.edu (IDENT:eric@mumble.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.93]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA38888 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:31:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from eric@localhost) by mumble.uchicago.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27243; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:38:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:38:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908090138.UAA27243(a)mumble.uchicago.edu> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The dsw man page In-Reply-To: <199908090047.KAA00491(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <199908090047.KAA00491(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > > Delete using switches, from memory. You toggled in an i-node number on > the front panel, then ran dsw to delete that i-node. ... > > I will try to dig up a reference to the `switches' story. I have seen it > somewhere. This may not be the reference you're looking for, but it definitely gets into the history of dsw. Slightly reformatted from the Usenet Oldnews archives at http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/: | Newsgroups: NET.general | From: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!mhtsa!research!dmr | Date: Wed Aug 12 00:35:06 1981 | Subject: etymology &c | | I would advise taking uiucdcs!jerry's account of history and | motivations with a healthy dose of salt. However, his heart's in | the right place (unlike some). | | A while ago someone asked Ken Thompson what he would do differently | if he were to do Unix again. The answer: "I would have called it | create instead of creat." Well, my answer is that I would have | fixed the stupid dsw manual page. Fortunately, I can atone | by publishing a correct account (not the real 1970 manual page, | but an incredible simulation). | | Subject: dsw manual page (honest) | | | DSW(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual DSW(1) | | NAME | dsw - delete from switches | | SYNOPSIS | (put number in console switches) | dsw | core | | DESCRIPTION | dsw reads the console switches to obtain a number n, prints | the name of the n-th file in the current directory, and | exits, leaving a core image file named core. If this core | file is executed, the file whose name was last printed is | unlinked (see unlink(2)). | | The command is useful for deleting files whose names are | difficult to type. | | SEE ALSO | rm(1), unlink(2) | | BUGS | This command was written in 2 minutes to delete a particular | file that managed to get an 0200 bit in its name. It should | work by printing the name of each file in a specified direc- | tory and requesting a `y' or `n' answer. Better, it should | be an option of rm(1). | | The name is mnemonic, but likely to cause trouble in the | future. | | Printed 8/11/81 PDP-7 local 1 | | ------------------------------------------------------------------- | | This Usenet Oldnews Archive article may be copied and distributed | freely, provided: | | 1. There is no money collected for the text(s) of the articles. | 2. The following notice remains appended to each copy: | The Usenet Oldnews Archive: Compilation Copyright (C) 1981, 1996 | Bruce Jones, Henry Spencer, David Wiseman. eric

25 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

V7M

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

While poking around in the documentation for the PUPS archive, I noticed that V7M is there, but that Warren's note about it says `I have no other information about who created these changes.' I believe it was the Telecommunication Industries Group in Digital, who did the work to make it easier to sell newer PDP-11 hardware to parts of the Bell System that used UNIX but didn't want to do their own kernel hacking. (Actually I suspect they also did it because the work was interesting and fun, and because there was a somewhat larger community to whom it would be useful; but the Bell System connection justified it to management.) The changes that turned V7 into V7M were given away to anyone that had an appropriate license from AT&T; Digital didn't charge for them, nor was there any additional license. V7M was used as the base for what was eventually called Ultrix, Digital's own name-brand UNIX, but that product didn't appear for several years after. I believe Bill Munson was the manager in charge of TIG at the time; certainly he was an early management-level champion of UNIX within Digital. Armando Stettner was probably the most famous of the other folks in the group, though by no means the only one. All this is vague stuff for me, since it happened a little before I got involved in UNIX, and I never ran V7M. I expect there are others out there who know more; please chime in! Norman Wilson

25 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Re: "Unix-based mallet" ???

by Greg Lehey

Does anybody here have an idea what this could be? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Chris Baird <cjb(a)brushtail.apana.org.au> ----- > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:52:28 +1000 (EST) > To: netbsd-users(a)netbsd.org > Reply-to: abuse(a)brushtail.apana.org.au > Precedence: list > Delivered-To: netbsd-users(a)netbsd.org > > While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer > mentions: > > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954 > > Could someone please explain the joke. :) > > -- > Chris Baird,, <cjb(a)brushtail.apana.org.au> ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24693 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:22:43 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Aug 6 13:20:44 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24689 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:22:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id NAA04460; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:20:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908060320.NAA04460(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: "Unix-based mallet" ??? In-Reply-To: <19990806123334.K5126(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 6, 1999 12:33:34 pm" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:20:44 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > Does anybody here have an idea what this could be? > > Greg > > ----- Forwarded message from Chris Baird <cjb(a)brushtail.apana.org.au> ----- > > While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer > > mentions: > > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954 > > Could someone please explain the joke. :) I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11, which version of Unix and calendar(1)? Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24768 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:34:59 +1000 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Fri Aug 6 13:34:43 1999 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24764 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:34:51 +1000 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA63389; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:34:43 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:34:43 +1200 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: "Unix-based mallet" ??? Message-ID: <19990806153443.A63379(a)begemot.org> References: <19990806123334.K5126(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199908060320.NAA04460(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199908060320.NAA04460(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 01:20:44PM +1000 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 01:20:44PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: > > Does anybody here have an idea what this could be? > > > > Greg > > > > ----- Forwarded message from Chris Baird <cjb(a)brushtail.apana.org.au> ----- > > > While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer > > > mentions: > > > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954 > > > Could someone please explain the joke. :) > > I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11, which version of Unix and calendar(1)? At least on FreeBSD it is in /usr/share/calendar/calendar.computer. Cannot check other versions at the moment. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24816 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:38:36 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Aug 6 13:38:22 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24809 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:38:30 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id NAA04506; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:38:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908060338.NAA04506(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: "Unix-based mallet" ??? In-Reply-To: <19990806153443.A63379(a)begemot.org> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Aug 6, 1999 3:34:43 pm" To: joerg(a)begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:38:22 +1000 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, grog(a)lemis.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Joerg B. Micheel: > > > > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954 > > I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11, which version of Unix and calendar(1)? > At least on FreeBSD it is in /usr/share/calendar/calendar.computer. > Cannot check other versions at the moment. > Joerg It's also in 4.4-Lite, Iguess we'll have to backtrack to find when it was added. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24962 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:51:38 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Aug 6 13:51:30 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24955 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:51:31 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id NAA04564 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:51:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Unix mallet .... To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:51:30 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS. I'll keep looking. We could ask Keith what he know about it. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25320 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:00:57 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Aug 6 15:00:46 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25316 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:00:50 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id PAA40293; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:00:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199908060500.PAA40293(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Unix mallet .... In-Reply-To: <19990806134045.O5126(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 6, 1999 1:40:45 pm" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:00:46 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday, 6 August 1999 at 13:51:30 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, > /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: > date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic > Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS. > I'll keep looking. We could ask Keith what he knows about it. Well, the earliest calendar.computer files I can find, apart from the SCCS record, are: Distributions/4bsd/43reno.vax/src.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28 Distributions/4bsd/net2/net2.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28 Distributions/4bsd/43reno.vax/usr.tar, calendar.computer dated 1990/07/29 [from the PUPS Archive] so the finger of suspicion does point at Keith Bostic. In article by Greg Lehey: > Sounds reasonable. You want to [ask Keith]? Yep, I'll fire off some email now. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25515 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:48:34 +1000 (EST) >From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com> Fri Aug 6 15:48:25 1999 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (firewall-user(a)smtp.sw.oz.au [203.31.96.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25511 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:48:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from peterc@localhost) by smtp.sw.oz.au (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA16635; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:48:25 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:48:25 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199908060548.PAA16635(a)smtp.sw.oz.au> From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: grog(a)lemis.com.au Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Subject: Re: Unix mallet .... In-Reply-To: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Warren" == Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes: Warren> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, Warren> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: Warren> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic A Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive (named after Anatole Mallet, a Frenchman). 1954 would have been in the midst of their heydays. Often used for hauling logs. Now, how did UNIX get involved???? 1954 predates UNIX as we know it, so it's probably something else or a spoof.... Peter C

25 years, 9 months

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PUPS mail list: still alive!

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, I thought I'd better send in a message to the PUPS list just to shake out the cobwebs, and to welcome on the newest half-dozen subscribers. I've added some more disk space, memory and a new OS to the PUPS Archive machine, minnie. About 100 people now have access to the archive, and SCO has sold 166 Ancient UNIX licenses. Peter Chubb recently mentioned that Dennis Ritchie has unearthed some old C compilers (see http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html) I'll add them into the Archive soon, and perhaps even try to compile them with the 5th Edition compiler. As always, if you have any questions etc. about old Unixes, please drop them into this mailing list. Cheers, Warren

25 years, 9 months

1
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Old ATT 3b2 Documentation. (fwd)

by Warren Toomey

----- Forwarded message from Riggi, Mike ----- >From MRIGGI(a)EMPIRE.STATE.NY.US Fri Jul 2 22:51:01 1999 Message-ID: <904E343860E9D211ADD80008C7CF70FD1C2F65@ALBINET> From: "Riggi, Mike" <MRIGGI(a)EMPIRE.STATE.NY.US> To: "'wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au'" <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Old ATT 3b2 Documentation. Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:48:32 -0400 Return-Receipt-To: "Riggi, Mike" <MRIGGI(a)EMPIRE.STATE.NY.US> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) I have complete sys documentation that came with ATT 3b2 400 machine in early 1980s. Includes all 20+ red 3-ring binders (includes all diskettes), also sets of ATT videos on SVR3.2. Also some software for the 3b2 such as 20/20 spreadsheet and WordPerfect. Can you think of anyone who would like this for free? Michael Riggi (518) 473-7649 or 439-3207. ----- End of forwarded message from Riggi, Mike -----

25 years, 10 months

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Unix 6 & the E11 Emulator

by Erin Corliss

How do you boot Unix 6 on an Ersatz-11 emulator? Here is the e11.ini I have: set cpu 40 mount dm0: ..\rk6.dsk assign tt1: f2 assign tt2: f3 boot dm0: The emulator currently displays the copyright, followed by a new line and an "@" symbol. At this point if you type "rkunix" or "unix" it has an exception...

25 years, 11 months

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Re: Free to a good home... (fwd)

by Warren Toomey

In article by David C. Jenner: > 1502 SCO Ancient Unix license holders! (Or is it 152?) Whups, typo :-) > Wow, that's $150,000 to SCO for supporting the effort. > That should probably be enough to pay all the lawyers, etc. > (Even if it's only $15,000.) I hope Warren got a cut, too. :) No, no cut for me, just happiness that people can use the archive. We're currently just back up from a campus-wide power failure. I knew it was coming. Every time minnie get over 100 days uptime, we have a power failure. Cheers all, Warren

25 years, 11 months

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Free to a good home... (fwd)

by Warren Toomey

All, Just a message to say that the PUPS mailing list DOES exist :-) It's just very quiet, so please feel free to wake it up. I should send in a list of new things in the PUPS Archive. We now have: 152 people subscribed to the mailing list 100 people with access to the PUPS archive 1502 SCO Ancient Unix license holders. Finally, John Dodson in Australia (who is not on the list), asked me to forward this message to you all. Cheers, Warren ----- Forwarded message from John Dodson ----- From: John Dodson <johnd(a)physiol.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Free to a good home... Free to a good home... Complete set of RSX11-M manuals. (Yes it ran on a PDP11 ;-) Complete set of Ultrix manuals. (Oh Ok so it ran on Vaxes ;-) One or 2 PDP-11/23's + some i/o cards (I'm not making a list, YOU must look, decide & negotiate with me to let them go...) A volunteer prepared to make a list would be OK. Contact: John Dodson, Dept of Physiology, (F13) johnd(a)physiol.usyd.edu.au & Faculty of Medicine, http://www.physiol.usyd.edu.au/johnd University of Sydney, Phone +61 2 9351 3277 NSW 2006 Fax +61 2 9351 2058 Australia. Bring a strong friend when you pick it up. You have a week before the docs are trashed. The machines & cards I'll keep for a while till they find a good home. Sorry I cannot (will not) deliver. ----- End of forwarded message from John Dodson ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA26777 for pups-liszt; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:13:38 +1000 (EST) >From Wim Fournier <wim(a)usn.nl> Tue Jun 1 16:59:52 1999 Received: from superluminal.usn.nl (wim(a)superluminal.usn.nl [194.183.103.23]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26771 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:13:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wim@localhost) by superluminal.usn.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA30249 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:59:52 +0200 From: Wim Fournier <wim(a)usn.nl> Message-Id: <199906010659.IAA30249(a)superluminal.usn.nl> Subject: Introduction To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:59:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Well as the list does live (a bit) let me introduce myself, maybe I can get out some discussion. My name is Wim Fournier (for known people and friends (not that I have any) it's Wimpie). I'm a student of 19 years old and currently doing Technical Informatics... That is something like system engineer with much knowledge. I'm higly interrested in electronics; High Frequency radio; computers; computer hardware; Old stuf (audio/compu/etc);unix/Linux I own a PDP11/94 with modem-lines / dr11c / tu80 / etc I have not got it working yet (hacking!!!) It's from the dutch telecom company KPN who has used it for semaphone (beepers and stuff) It came with a 19" rack (all black + heavy) and a switch box for American plugs. When I put the box and the PDP on power and switch on the switch and set it to local on or power on, only the switch goes on... the PDP does not react.. I have got one suspect: the wire between the switch and the PDP (3-wire in the back)... it was broken and I re-wire it 1 on 1 but do not know if this is OK. Further more I haven't got a disk yet. I'm searching for an old apple disk (scsi-1) as someone told me it should work. If someone has got an answer to my frustrating problems.. I'm listening.. 8*} Well... that will be the end of this shout for help plus introduction.. Greetings, Wim Fournier Unix Support Netherlands (practice training company for my study) PS: sorry for the bad English if any.. My keyboard doesn't type English that good... 8*)) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA27048 for pups-liszt; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:21:15 +1000 (EST) >From Wim Fournier <wim(a)usn.nl> Tue Jun 1 19:07:16 1999 Received: from superluminal.usn.nl (wim(a)superluminal.usn.nl [194.183.103.23]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA27043 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:21:05 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wim@localhost) by superluminal.usn.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00196; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:07:16 +0200 From: Wim Fournier <wim(a)usn.nl> Message-Id: <199906010907.LAA00196(a)superluminal.usn.nl> Subject: Re: Introduction To: A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk (Alan F R Bain) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:07:16 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-Reply-To: <E10ok9a-0006Jy-00(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk> from "Alan F R Bain" at Jun 1, 99 09:44:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > Wim Fournier wrote: > >Well as the list does live (a bit) let me introduce myself, maybe I can get > >out some discussion. > > > >I own a PDP11/94 with modem-lines / dr11c / tu80 / etc > >When I put the box and the PDP on power and switch on the switch and set it to > >local on or power on, only the switch goes on... the PDP does not react.. I > >have got one suspect: the wire between the switch and the PDP (3-wire in the > >back)... it was broken and I re-wire it 1 on 1 but do not know if this is OK. > > Why not try powering up the PDP independantly of the power controller? > You can make an american socket -> dutch plug lead, or just swap the plug. > There's also most probably a circuit breaker on the back of the PDP. > Check that this hasn't tripped (or been damaged in transit!). That's a good one.. I saw the breaker.. it's holding the floor of the pdp.. But what I'm wordering is what the power consumption is (at 220V) in ampere, because I will be feeding it from an normal home-socket (line/null/mass) at +/- 230Volt 10 Ampere. > > The H??? power controller is just a box with a big relay for switching > everything on at once. There came with it two little short ciruit > plugs for testing (there is a power on line and and power off due to > overheating line). I you do need a new three wire power controller > cable, I have a box of hundreds of them, email me and I'm sure I can > send you one. Well.. I didn't get the test plugs.. but that's OK.. I'll nuke them myself 8*) And as of the power controller cables.. How much does it cost to send from your house (where do you live anyway?) to The Netherlands (I live near Utrecht (about the center of NL)) > > >Further more I haven't got a disk yet. I'm searching for an old apple disk > >(scsi-1) as someone told me it should work. > > This depends upon the controller cards installed in the PDP. > I'll send you a list tommorow.. > Alan > Thanks Wim Fournier Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA27545 for pups-liszt; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:02:12 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jun 1 22:47:30 1999 Received: from smtp04.nwnexus.com (smtp04.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.52]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA27540 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:02:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (jenner.net [206.63.251.66]) by smtp04.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA00390; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 05:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3753D662.9913E45C(a)halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 05:47:30 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Organization: Northwest Nexus Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au CC: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Free to a good home... (fwd) References: <199906010555.PAA07705(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk 1502 SCO Ancient Unix license holders! (Or is it 152?) Wow, that's $150,000 to SCO for supporting the effort. That should probably be enough to pay all the lawyers, etc. (Even if it's only $15,000.) I hope Warren got a cut, too. :) Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > All, > Just a message to say that the PUPS mailing list DOES exist :-) > It's just very quiet, so please feel free to wake it up. I should > send in a list of new things in the PUPS Archive. > > We now have: > 152 people subscribed to the mailing list > 100 people with access to the PUPS archive > 1502 SCO Ancient Unix license holders. > > Finally, John Dodson in Australia (who is not on the list), asked > me to forward this message to you all. > > Cheers, > Warren > > ----- Forwarded message from John Dodson ----- > From: John Dodson <johnd(a)physiol.usyd.edu.au> > Subject: Free to a good home... > > Free to a good home... > > Complete set of RSX11-M manuals. (Yes it ran on a PDP11 ;-) > > Complete set of Ultrix manuals. (Oh Ok so it ran on Vaxes ;-) > > One or 2 PDP-11/23's + some i/o cards (I'm not making a list, YOU must > look, decide & negotiate with me to let them go...) > A volunteer prepared to make a list would be OK. > > Contact: > > John Dodson, Dept of Physiology, (F13) > johnd(a)physiol.usyd.edu.au & Faculty of Medicine, > http://www.physiol.usyd.edu.au/johnd University of Sydney, > Phone +61 2 9351 3277 NSW 2006 > Fax +61 2 9351 2058 Australia. > > Bring a strong friend when you pick it up. You have a week before the docs are > trashed. The machines & cards I'll keep for a while till they find a good home. > Sorry I cannot (will not) deliver. > ----- End of forwarded message from John Dodson -----

25 years, 11 months

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Removing VAXBI and XMI boards

by Michael Sokolov

Hello everyone, As I'm trying to determine the exact configuration of the VAX 6000 I have just acquired, I have the following very stupid question: how in the world do you pull a VAXBI or XMI board out of the backplane? It's definitely nothing like any UNIBUS or Q-bus stuff I have worked with so far. UNIBUS and Q-bus both use Mxxxx series modules, but VAXBI and XMI use Txxxx series ones, which look quite different mechanically. There is a long black bar hanging over each slot, including empty ones, but no fiddling with it makes the board come out. Could someone please explain to me how to pull VAXBI and XMI boards out and put them back in? TIA. Special Agent Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility International Free Computing Task Force Phone: +1-216-761-3656 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET

25 years, 12 months

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Re: TOC of Sun3 SunOS 4.1.1 tapes (what about sunos 4.1???)

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> While rummaging I found this. Thought some one might find it useful. Yes indeedy.... I had a paper copy of that, but it is nice to get an electronic copy. > SunOS 4.1.1 700-2719-10 of Sun Oct 14 16:11:25 PDT 1990 from Sun Release Engineering > ARCH sun3 > VOLUME 1 > Vol File Name Size Type > 1 0 boot 32768 image > 1 1 XDRTOC 4096 toc > 1 2 munix 729600 image > 1 3 munixfs.tape 1638400 image Speaking of 4.1.1 bits, I have a 4.1 tape for the early sun4 machines that has bad spots in the usr file system and beyond on Tape 1 of 2. Up to that point (the first 6 files) tape 1 is fine, and tape 2 is fine. Anyone have the usr tarballs and later from a sun4 sunos 4.1 tape 1 that I could use to rewrite my tape? Right now I a using bits from the 4.1.1 CD, but it would be nice to have the original 4.1 files so that I could fully rewrite the tape with the correct bits. What I would like to do is pull the reels out of a good fresh tape, and put them into the Sun badged cartridge, and rewrite it. My 4/260 box would be much appreciative, for the long haul. Any suggestions or leads to the mystical files are appreciated. Is there a tally of how many of us are doing the old vme sun bit? I run 3 12-slot boxes and 1 3-slot box, with 3/110, 3/160, 3/200, 4/110, 4/260 configurations, depending upon how the boards are swapped on any given day. Yeah, I know, it ain't one of our treasured PDP-11 toyz, but it a lot easier to find in the dustbins here and there.....(:+}}... Bob Keys

26 years

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Re: UNIX Heritage Society Digest V1 #78

by Robert Harker, 408-295-9432

The standard SunOS comand to move the tape is mt -f /dev/nrst0 rew mt -f /dev/nrst0 fsf 1 You need to use the non-rewinding device, /dev/nrst0, not /dev/rst0 which rewinds the tape automatically. Then you might try either tar tvfb /dev/nrst0 20b or dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=dd.out.file bs=20b Trying to recall what the format of the files on the sun tape were. Humm.... Wonder if I still have my copy tape script.... Rummage around with find... found it. It is attached at the end. A pretty stupid script now that I look at it. But it did the trick to copy tapes from disk dd images. I leave it as an excersize to write the script to copy the tape to disk. BTW, the tapes were only 20 Mb in those days. Hope this helps RLH Proud owner of a Sun 100U > Generate sendmail.cf files using the web. Check out our web based < > sendmail.cf file generator: http://www.harker.com/gen.sendmail.cf < > For info about our "Managing Internet Mail, Setting Up and Trouble < > Shooting sendmail and DNS" and a schedule of dates and locations, < > please send email to info(a)harker.com, or visit www.harker.com < Robert Harker Harker Systems Sendmail and TCP/IP Network Training 1180 Hester Ave Sendmail, Network, and Sysadmin Consulting San Jose, CA 95126 harker(a)harker.com 408-295-6239 #! /bin/sh mt -f /dev/rst8 ret dd if=/dev/rst8 of=tape1.file0 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 1 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file1 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 2 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file2 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 3 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file3 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 4 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file4 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 5 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file5 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 6 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file6 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 7 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file7 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 8 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file8 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 9 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file9 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 10 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file10 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 11 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file11 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 12 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file12 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 13 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file13 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 14 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file14 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew mt -f /dev/nrst8 fsf 15 dd if=/dev/nrst8 of=tape1.file15 bs=126b mt -f /dev/rst8 rew Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA21117 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:00:40 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert Harker, 408-295-9432" <harker(a)harker.com> Thu May 6 08:56:32 1999 Received: from harker.harker.com (harker.harker.com [192.102.231.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21112 for <pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:00:28 +1000 (EST) Received: (from harker@localhost) by harker.harker.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id PAA23418 for pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:56:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Harker, 408-295-9432" <harker(a)harker.com> Message-Id: <199905052256.PAA23418(a)harker.harker.com> To: pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: TOC of Sun3 SunOS 4.1.1 tapes Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk While rummaging I found this. Thought some one might find it useful. Hope this helps RLH > Generate sendmail.cf files using the web. Check out our web based < > sendmail.cf file generator: http://www.harker.com/gen.sendmail.cf < > For info about our "Managing Internet Mail, Setting Up and Trouble < > Shooting sendmail and DNS" and a schedule of dates and locations, < > please send email to info(a)harker.com, or visit www.harker.com < Robert Harker Harker Systems Sendmail and TCP/IP Network Training 1180 Hester Ave Sendmail, Network, and Sysadmin Consulting San Jose, CA 95126 harker(a)harker.com 408-295-6239 SunOS 4.1.1 700-2719-10 of Sun Oct 14 16:11:25 PDT 1990 from Sun Release Engineering ARCH sun3 VOLUME 1 Vol File Name Size Type 1 0 boot 32768 image 1 1 XDRTOC 4096 toc 1 2 munix 729600 image 1 3 munixfs.tape 1638400 image 1 4 mini-root 7168000 image 1 5 root 74309 tarZ 1 6 usr 11609002 tarZ 1 7 Kvm 2042991 tarZ 1 8 Install 375409 tarZ 1 9 Networking 368239 tarZ 1 10 System_V 1624303 tarZ 1 11 Sys 1824146 tarZ 1 12 SunView_Users 978709 tarZ 1 13 SunView_Demo 196393 tarZ 1 14 Text 286755 tarZ 1 15 Demo 2132420 tarZ 1 16 OpenWindows_Users 10627838 tarZ 1 17 OpenWindows_Demo 2235385 tarZ 1 18 OpenWindows_Fonts 7180441 tarZ 1 19 User_Diag 1362467 tarZ 1 20 Manual 2653437 tarZ 1 21 TLI 18976 tarZ 1 22 RFS 338005 tarZ 1 23 Debugging 1141193 tarZ 1 24 SunView_Programmers 696087 tarZ 1 25 Shlib_Custom 748155 tarZ 1 26 Graphics 1219433 tarZ 1 27 uucp 226513 tarZ 1 28 Copyright 1536 image 2 0 XDRTOC 4096 toc 2 1 XDRTOC 4096 toc 2 2 Games 1558603 tarZ 2 3 Versatec 2383297 tarZ 2 4 Security 203109 tarZ 2 5 OpenWindows_Programmers 3916907 tarZ 2 6 Patch_IPC 139264 tarZ 2 7 Patch_C++_2.0 2953216 tarZ 2 8 Patch_TAAC 20480 tarZ 2 9 Copyright 1536 image Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA21141 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:03:09 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert Harker, 408-295-9432" <harker(a)harker.com> Thu May 6 08:59:03 1999 Received: from harker.harker.com (harker.harker.com [192.102.231.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21136 for <pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:02:59 +1000 (EST) Received: (from harker@localhost) by harker.harker.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id PAA23434 for pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:59:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Harker, 408-295-9432" <harker(a)harker.com> Message-Id: <199905052259.PAA23434(a)harker.harker.com> To: pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Looking for Sun2 Multibus SCSI board Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I am looking for a Sun2 Mutlibus SCSI board, no cables. Will give it a good home, pay money (some), or trade for other Sun2 Mutlibus stuff. If you need Sun2 Mutlibus boards I have some spares. Drop a request. Thanks in advance RLH > Generate sendmail.cf files using the web. Check out our web based < > sendmail.cf file generator: http://www.harker.com/gen.sendmail.cf < > For info about our "Managing Internet Mail, Setting Up and Trouble < > Shooting sendmail and DNS" and a schedule of dates and locations, < > please send email to info(a)harker.com, or visit www.harker.com < Robert Harker Harker Systems Sendmail and TCP/IP Network Training 1180 Hester Ave Sendmail, Network, and Sysadmin Consulting San Jose, CA 95126 harker(a)harker.com 408-295-6239 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA22062 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:13:25 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz> Thu May 6 15:09:17 1999 Received: from xena.cs.waikato.ac.nz (xena.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.241.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA22057 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:13:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from lucy.cs.waikato.ac.nz (joerg(a)lucy.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.241.12]) by xena.cs.waikato.ac.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22179 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:09:18 +1200 (NZST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by lucy.cs.waikato.ac.nz (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA01649 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:09:17 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:09:17 +1200 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Interview with Ken Thompson in COMPUTER Message-ID: <19990506170917.A1630(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: SCMS, The University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand Project: WAND - Waikato Applied Network Dynamics, DAG Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 SPARC Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi there, I found this one quite interesting reading: http://computer.org/computer/thompson.htm Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz> Waikato Applied Network Dynamics Phone: +64 7 8384794 The University of Waikato, SCMS Fax: +64 7 8384155 Private Bag 3105 Pager: +64 868 38222 Hamilton, New Zealand Plan: TINE and the DAG's Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA22082 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:16:50 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu May 6 15:12:40 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA22077 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:16:41 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id PAA10788; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:12:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199905060512.PAA10788(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Interview with Ken Thompson in COMPUTER In-Reply-To: <19990506170917.A1630(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz> from Joerg Micheel at "May 6, 1999 5: 9:17 pm" To: joerg(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz (Joerg Micheel) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:12:40 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Joerg Micheel: > Hi there, > > I found this one quite interesting reading: > > http://computer.org/computer/thompson.htm >Joerg Yes, I should link it on the PUPS/TUHS pages. Thanks Joerg. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA22960 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 May 1999 23:31:54 +1000 (EST)

26 years

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Usenix archives?

by Tim Shoppa

A rescue yesterday yielded several 9-tracks claiming to be Usenix collections from the late 70's and early 80's. Are there any Usenix collections online that might be interested in copies? If not, would this material be appropriate for the PUPS archive, possibly in a trimmed or edited form? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA07967 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:05:27 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon May 3 09:03:24 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA07962 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:05:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) id JAA41888; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:03:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199905022303.JAA41888(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Usenix archives? In-Reply-To: <990502174247.20c01252(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "May 2, 1999 5:42:47 pm" To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:03:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > A rescue yesterday yielded several 9-tracks claiming to be Usenix > collections from the late 70's and early 80's. Are there any Usenix > collections online that might be interested in copies? If not, would > this material be appropriate for the PUPS archive, possibly in a trimmed > or edited form? Hi Tim, yes I think those tapes would be excellent material for the PUPS Archive. We already have some Usenix tapes in the archive: 2616 Applications/Usenix_77/ug091377-ar.tar.gz 10208 Applications/Spencer_Tapes/del.tar.gz 2688 Applications/Spencer_Tapes/tor79.tar.gz but of course more would be welcome. I'd be happy to take them untrimmed :-) Thanks! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA10986 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 May 1999 01:43:39 +1000 (EST) >From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Tue May 4 01:41:11 1999 Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (IDENT:eric@fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA10981 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 4 May 1999 01:43:28 +1000 (EST) Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10922; Mon, 3 May 1999 10:41:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:41:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-Id: <199905031541.KAA10922(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: SunOS 0.4 tape Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk When sorting through old things in the machine room here recently, Job Bogan came across an early QIC tape of SunOS. The label reads: Sun UNIX 4.2* Software Release 0.4 (*Berkeley Beta Release) 1/4" Boot Tape 1 of 2 700-0585-01 copyright (c) 1983 Sun Microsystems Unfortunately, when I attempted to read the tape, all I got was a tar file of a Fortran program dating from 1989. It didn't get very far into the tape, though, so parts of the original software may still be present -- but I don't know how to get past the end-of-tape mark to get at them. Any ideas? By the way, the Sun 1 that this tape goes with still exists, elsewhere on campus, but hasn't been in usable condition in years. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA11134 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 May 1999 02:31:47 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue May 4 02:29:16 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA11129 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU>; Tue, 4 May 1999 02:31:36 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU; Mon, 3 May 1999 12:29:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 12:29:16 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <990503122916.20c010f3(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: SunOS 0.4 tape Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >When sorting through old things in the machine room here recently, >Job Bogan came across an early QIC tape of SunOS. The label reads: > > Sun UNIX 4.2* Software Release 0.4 > (*Berkeley Beta Release) > 1/4" Boot Tape 1 of 2 700-0585-01 > copyright (c) 1983 Sun Microsystems > >Unfortunately, when I attempted to read the tape, all I got was a >tar file of a Fortran program dating from 1989. So presumably someone decided to re-use this tape - and we hope they didn't reformat the tape first. > It didn't get very >far into the tape, though, so parts of the original software may >still be present -- but I don't know how to get past the end-of-tape >mark to get at them. Any ideas? QIC tape formats have physical sectors that the controller (in your case, most likely the SCSI controller that interfaces the drive to your SCSI bus) presents to the rest of the system as a series of logical tape records and tape marks. You can't get past the logical end-of-tape because the SCSI controller (not host adapter!) "knows" there's nothing past the logical end-of-tape. If you bypass this by going straight to the physical sectors, you can read the data following logical end-of-tape, assuming that the cartridge was never reformatted. Most SCSI QIC tape controllers will let you get at the physical sectors, but this is rarely supported by the OS and isn't always consistent from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer. QIC tape standards are pretty well documented at http://www.qic.org/. For details on how your SCSI QIC drive can be forced to access physical sectors, it's best to go straight to the drive manufacturer's technical manuals. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years

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Yet another PDP-11 web page

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

I have created 'yet another PDP-11 page', hence forth to be known as YAPP at :- www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11 I have covered all the production PDP-11's with a slant to earlier models, and lots of images. Enjoy.

26 years

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Old (7th ed 32v?) manuals

by Tim Bradshaw

I have a set of printed (decent quality) manuals which were distributed with 32bit machines (HLH Orions) which ran BSD in later life (I have BSD manuals for them). These ones must be from some early port of <something>, perhaps 32v or I'm not sure what. They're dated 1979 and seem to describe some definitely pre-BSD Unix. As you can probably tell I haven't been through them in detail or I'd have more info. I don't really want them as they're 4 folders which don't actually define any system I have (unless I succeed in finding a free PDP11 of reasonable physical size in the UK...) and really I have too much stuff already... But it seems a shame to just throw them out. Is it worth trying to preserve such things? Could anyone offer them a home. I can post them in the UK, and abroad if it's not too savagely expensive. --tim

26 years, 1 month

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FWD: PDP-11/83 looking for good home

by Robert J. Kelley

I hope someone can put this machine to good use. I'd pursue it myself but I live in Portland, OR. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Path: news!global-news-master!newsfeed.concentric.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.210.223.23!dustdevil.neo.rr.com!not-for-mail From: matuscak(a)rohrer.com (Joe Matuscak) Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: PDP-11/83 looking for good home Message-ID: <MPG.1162bfd24561aa4989684(a)news-server.neo.rr.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.210.200.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse(a)neo.rr.com X-Trace: dustdevil.neo.rr.com 922285509 204.210.200.18 (Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 EDT Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio Xref: news comp.sys.dec:76218 We have a PDP-11/83 system (BA123 worldbox, 2 DHQ11, RD54, TK50, LA120, LA324) that is looking for a home. It's running MicroRSTS and is working. We are located in northeast Ohio. Call or email me. Thanks, -- Joe Matuscak Rohrer Corporation 717 Seville Road Wadsworth, Ohio 44281 (330)335-1541 matuscak(a)rohrer.com

26 years, 2 months

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Early Unix history online article

by Martin Crehan

An interesting article on the early versions of Unix can be found online at: http://www.daemonnews.org/199903/history.html The arrtcle, which is an slightly updated version originally published in Microsystems in 1984, is titled: A History of UNIX Before Berkeley: UNIX® Evolution, 1975-1984 by Ian F. Darwin and Geoffrey Collyer Martin Crehan

26 years, 2 months

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Re: Old SunOS Software

by Warren Toomey

In article by Robert Harker, 408-295-9432: > I just joined the pups-digest mailing list which seemed to be PDP-11 > oriented. Is there a different mailing list for the The Unix Heritage > Society? > > And yes, I do have the original SunOS 2.x, 3.x, and 4.x software > (and maybe 1.x also). As I tell friends, "There is a Sun 100u in the > Smithsonian, but mine is older" > > Thanks in advance > RLH Hi Robert, the name is a legacy thing, feel free to talk about old Suns. If you have the old software, and we can clear things with Sun, then we could get it added into the archive here. There was a German web site which had Sun's assent to put some old SunOS versions up on the web. My email from Robert D. Keys <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> says: Try the http://doener.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/ site, and it is explained there. The guy actually got Sun to OK it, as far as I know, but I have no idea of the exact legalese involved, but memory tells me it was Sun Germany that gave the go-ahead on it. The site may have moved to http://sun3arc.krupp.net, since I was thinking a move was in progress a couple of months back. I think I got to it via a link from www.sunhelp.com or www.sunfreeware.com. Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA00695 for pups-liszt; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:56:48 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 2 months

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Re: SCO Source license tainting?

by Warren Toomey

In article by Jesper Nilsson: > I'm thinking about getting myself a SCO Source license, > but I'm worried that I might get "tainted" by this > since my day job involves writing operating systems... > My employer would not appreciate getting sued because of > my hobbies...:-) As long as you don't reuse tainted Unix source code in your job, you will be ok. There are so many books covering the Unix kernel: Lions, Bach, Goodheart, Vahalia etc., that any concerns other than source code reuse are negligible. That's my feelings, anyway. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA25583 for pups-liszt; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:46:21 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Feb 24 10:46:07 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25578 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:46:12 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA20195; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:16:09 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA51811; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:16:08 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990224111607.G93492(a)lemis.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:16:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCO Source license tainting? References: <Pine.LNX.4.05-df.9902231646390.8684-100000(a)bartlet.df.lth.se> <199902232152.IAA04722(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199902232152.IAA04722(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 08:52:15AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 24 February 1999 at 8:52:15 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Jesper Nilsson: >> I'm thinking about getting myself a SCO Source license, >> but I'm worried that I might get "tainted" by this >> since my day job involves writing operating systems... >> My employer would not appreciate getting sued because of >> my hobbies...:-) > > As long as you don't reuse tainted Unix source code in your job, you will > be ok. There are so many books covering the Unix kernel: Lions, Bach, > Goodheart, Vahalia etc., that any concerns other than source code reuse > are negligible. I think this relates to a spectre raised during the USL/BSDI wars. Somebody suggested that anybody who had been exposed to AT&T source code was ``tainted'' and could thus not legally develop competitive systems. Somewhere I have a button that somebody brought back to me from a USENIX, with the text ``mentally contaminated''. Jesper, I don't think you need to worry about the problem. That kind of restriction would be unenforceable. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key

26 years, 2 months

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2.9BSD & Pro: another version

by Warren Toomey

Ken Wellsch has just uploaded a set of RX50 disk images containing 2.9BSD for the Pro 350 to the PUPS Archive. You can find them in Distributions/ucb/2.9bsd4pro350-kcwellsc He says: I believe the RX50 is actually 80 tracks with 10 sectors per track, thus yielding 800 blocks per disk. I think the first track is reserved and thus Venix would not let me at it. Hopefully I have not also lost additional information here too. All the 34 disk images he sent in are 790 blocks long. Can anybody tell us if we will need to recover track 0 to make these images useful? At the very least, I've managed to find the pcreg.h file out of the images (cat */*.rx50 | less -B), so I'm getting closer at recompiling the 2.9/Pro kernel. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA23748 for pups-liszt; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 03:01:12 +1100 (EST) >From Jesper Nilsson <jesper(a)df.lth.se> Wed Feb 24 02:00:54 1999 Received: from bartlet.df.lth.se (jesper(a)bartlet.df.lth.se [194.47.252.146]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA23743 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 03:01:02 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (jesper@localhost) by bartlet.df.lth.se (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21777 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:00:54 +0100 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:00:54 +0100 (CET) From: Jesper Nilsson <jesper(a)df.lth.se> To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: SCO Source license tainting? Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05-df.9902231646390.8684-100000(a)bartlet.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Tjo! I have a question that I hope someone can help me with: I'm thinking about getting myself a SCO Source license, but I'm worried that I might get "tainted" by this since my day job involves writing operating systems... My employer would not appreciate getting sued because of my hobbies...:-) Has anyone done research about this aspect of the license? My goals are twofold, running an older Unix version on my PDP-11's, and of course I want to peruse the source of the classic versions. /^JN - Jesper Nilsson -- I've heard of UNIseX, but I've never had it. Jesper Nilsson -- jesper(a)df.lth.se

26 years, 3 months

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Re: V7 filesystem work

by mallison＠konnections.com

Yeah, I'm interested. Can you write up what changes the linux port entailed??? -Mike At 07:10 PM 2/20/99 +0100, g4klx(a)g4klx.demon.co.uk wrote: >Hello All > >A couple of weeks ago I hacked the program v7 from the bostic_tools to >work under all sorts of different Unix versions. It worked great and >allowed me to snoop around the V7 file system images from native Linux. >Anyone who wants a copy can send me an e-mail. > >Anyway I had a few hours spare today, and decided to try adding the V7 >filesystem to the Linux kernel. Results so far are encouraging: > > >g4klx:/usr/src/linux# ls -l /mnt >total 333 >drwxrwxrwx 7 root root 224 Sep 22 1988 . >drwxr-xr-x 19 root root 1024 Feb 14 11:55 .. >drwxrwxr-x 2 3 3 2512 Sep 22 1988 bin >-rwxr-xr-x 1 3 3 8986 Jun 8 1979 boot >drwxrwxr-x 2 3 3 160 Sep 22 1988 dev >drwxrwxr-x 2 3 3 336 Sep 22 1988 etc >-rwxr-xr-x 1 daemon daemon 53302 Jun 8 1979 hphtunix >-rwxr-xr-x 1 daemon daemon 52850 Jun 8 1979 hptmunix >drwxrwxr-x 2 3 3 192 Sep 22 1988 lib >drwxrwxr-x 2 root lp 96 Sep 22 1988 mdec >-rwxr-xr-x 1 root daemon 50990 Jun 8 1979 rkunix >-rwxr-xr-x 1 root daemon 51982 Jun 8 1979 rl2unix >-rwxr-xr-x 1 daemon daemon 51790 Jun 8 1979 rphtunix >-rwxr-xr-x 1 daemon daemon 51274 Jun 8 1979 rptmunix >g4klx:/usr/src/linux# df >Filesystem 1024-blocks Used Available Capacity Mounted on >/dev/hda1 3031184 1920771 953665 67% / >/dev/loop0 1919 1877 42 98% /mnt >g4klx:/usr/src/linux# > > >I am using the loop block device to allow me to mount a file as a block >device, this saves me having to add a new partition to my disc. There >should be no reason why it won't work with a true disc partition. The V7 >filesystem under Linux is read/write. > >Anyone interested ? > >Jonathan > > > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA02555 for pups-liszt; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:29:44 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sun Feb 21 12:29:29 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02549 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:29:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA08687; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:29:29 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199902210229.NAA08687(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: V7 filesystem work In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9902201906360.1385-100000(a)g4klx.agri.ch> from Jonathan Naylor at "Feb 20, 1999 7:10:45 pm" To: g4klx(a)g4klx.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:29:29 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Jonathan Naylor: > Hello All > > A couple of weeks ago I hacked the program v7 from the bostic_tools to > work under all sorts of different Unix versions. It worked great and > allowed me to snoop around the V7 file system images from native Linux. > Anyone who wants a copy can send me an e-mail. > > Anyway I had a few hours spare today, and decided to try adding the V7 > filesystem to the Linux kernel. Results so far are encouraging: > I am using the loop block device to allow me to mount a file as a block > device, this saves me having to add a new partition to my disc. There > should be no reason why it won't work with a true disc partition. The V7 > filesystem under Linux is read/write. > > Anyone interested ? I'd be happy to add any changes etc. into the Tools directory in the PUPS Archive. It's about time Unix could read the Unix filesystem again :-) Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA05201 for pups-liszt; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:23:41 +1100 (EST) >From Jonathan Naylor <g4klx(a)pop.agri.ch> Sun Feb 21 19:07:50 1999 Received: from biene.agri.ch (biene.agri.ch [212.28.128.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA05195 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:23:21 +1100 (EST) X-Internal-ID: 36B8327D0006E80C Received: from g4klx.agri.ch (212.28.159.135) by biene.agri.ch (NPlex 2.0.119); Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:23:16 +0100 Received: from localhost (g4klx@localhost) by g4klx.agri.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00455; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:07:51 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: g4klx.agri.ch: g4klx owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:07:50 +0100 (CET) From: Jonathan Naylor <g4klx(a)pop.agri.ch> X-Sender: g4klx(a)g4klx.agri.ch Reply-To: g4klx(a)g4klx.demon.co.uk To: Mike Allison <mallison(a)konnections.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: V7 filesystem work In-Reply-To: <199902210203.TAA18682(a)mail.konnections.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9902210957580.303-100000(a)g4klx.agri.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hello Mike and the list On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, Mike Allison wrote: > Yeah, I'm interested. Can you write up what changes the linux port entailed??? > > -Mike I assume you mean the standalone V7 FS program rather than the kernel V7 FS support ? The code was written in old C, and from a modern C programmers point of view, rather sloppily. The warnings from the compiler were terrible, so I added function prototypes, and made the code more ANSI C like. Then I got rid of a few bugs, in one place I remember a character pointer being assigned to a character. I then typedef'd the data types so I could use int8, int16 and int32 in the code to make it more portable. I stopped using structure overlays onto the raw data as that is messy and is not good for (a) byte ordering and (b) structure packing. It also allowed me to stop using the original V7 file headers which would have made a public release of the code problematic. The data is extracted from the raw block data by using special architecturally neutral functions into locally held structures. That is a particular win with the block number in three bytes trick that is used in the inode. It has been tested on i386/Linux with both glibc 1.0 and glibc 2.0 and Alpha/Linux, no changes were needed. Then I added a few new commands to let me look at the superblock and bootblocks and a few other bits. Then I released it. I have just sent a copy of the program to Warren for inclusion in the PUPS tools section. Its not very big. Work is progressing on the V7 filesystem in the Linux kernel. Anyone who wants the patches for that should send me an e-mail. I hope to get it into the mainstream kernel in the Linux 2.3 series. Jonathan

26 years, 3 months

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