All,
Given that some of you have found KSERVE, the TU11 emulator code,
and other bootstrap bits & pieces, would it be possible for you for ftp
upload them to one of my machines so I can add them into the PUPS archive?
Address is minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, ftp in as anonymous, you will find
/incoming world-writable (for a few days anyway!). A README.XXX would also
be helpful!
Thanks again,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 17 13:14:48 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709170314.NAA01259(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Also, PDP-11 URLs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:14:48 +1000 (EST)
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Also, while I'm thinking, email in your hotlist of PDP-11 related URLs,
both http:// and ftp:// sites. I just went to look for KSERVE myself and
haven't found it yet. Having a set of URLs to try would be nice!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 17 14:51:36 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709170451.OAA01580(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Updated PUPS ftp & web areas
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:51:36 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I've got both the TU58 emulator and KSERVE, and placed them
along with the PDP-11 emulators and the tools I have for extracting
files from old tapes/disk images at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11
The PUPS web pages have also been rearranged, with details of how
to set up 6th and 7th Edition UNIX and also 2.11BSD. Web page at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
Warren
<Btw. my M70 has two monitors:
What is a M70? PDP11/70 or ?
< SBC M70-V3.0
<
<DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT
<
<M70>
That is some form of boot rom and those are the devices you can boot.
<173244
<@
<
<Is the second a debugger?
That is ODT, crude debugger. For many PDP-11s it serves as a microcode
console as in the 11/03 and 11/23 series
Allison
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[ The following email came from Steven Schultz, but didn't make
it into the PUPS mail list as it was too big! I've extracted
the included PostScript file and put it on the PUPS web page.
Warren
]
Greetings -
> = "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
> occurred to me as I drool in anticipation over the possibility of
> running 2.11BSD on an 11/73!
It is a lot of fun - well worth drooling over ;-)
> Maybe you or a 2.11BSD expert (Steve Schultz?) could find the "release
You rang? ;)
> notes" for 2.11BSD and post them, if that's legal now. That would
Hmmm, the Install/Setup docs have the old style BSD copyright notice
on them ("subject to the terms of your BSD license") rather than the
later "do what you want but leave our credits present". I suppose it
wouldn't be too risky to post the formatted documentation (rather than
the raw nroff source). It is quite large (I hope Postscript is
acceptable to everyone) but gzip'd it should be of reasonable size.
[ It's now at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/2bsdsetup.ps.gz - Warren ]
> It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't
> help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a
> CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to
> have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard
> distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that
> possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system
For quite a while it didn't occur to me what all the fuss was
about. I assumed that folks would do what I do - put the CD into
a BSD/OS|FreeBSD|Linux|usw box and write the images out to a 4mm
or 9-track and then cable the tape drive up to the PDP-11 and proceed.
It finally dawned on me that most folks won't have invested in
a Qbus SCSI adaptor (it's really a VERY handy thing to have, makes
possible sharing of tape drives, using inexpensive new disks instead
of old slow RD5{3,4} drives, etc).
For _some_ folks (those a bit more "serious") getting a SCSI adaptor
would be a "good thing". They're cheaper now than they used to be
(I about choked when a new Emulex UC08 was $1500 - and that's with
a 30% discount - but went ahead with it back in 1991 and have never
regretted it). A used UC08 (or similar CMD product) is from
what I have seen about $900 today. A TAPE ONLY CMD adaptor is "just"
$300 - that's not too bad, is it? Since in many cases the systems
have been obtained free (or cheaply) as they were being tossed out
and it is beginning to look like the software will be almost free
($100 or so isn't a whole lot of money) perhaps investing some money
into the hobby in the form of a SCSI adaptor would be a wise choice (at
least for some folks). Everything can't be free all the time, can it?
DEC used to make a SCSI adaptor (RQZX1) and a TZ30 (SCSI variant of
the TK50) but I have no idea how available those are on the used
parts market these days.
Other folks I would hope could find a Vax (or similar) system around
with a TK50 or whatever and perhaps write the images to tape that way.
You don't want floppies ;) RX50 floppy media is expensive and
only holds 800kb per diskette (not to mention that RX50 drives are
flakey). RX33s can get 1.2mb per disk but the Teac model of 5.25" drive
that can be adapted to the RQDX3 controller is getting _scare_ and
newer models (from what I understand) can not be adapted for use
with RQDX3 controller. I suppose a person could get an RX23 or RX26
from DEC but heaven knows what that would cost.
Besides which a complete 2.11 kit would take somewhere between 80 and
100 floppies (depending on how full each one could be packed).
TK25s are another possibility but I don't know how many folks have
(or want) one of those - they're rather awkward physically and while
they use DC600A tapes aren't interchangeable with any other system.
9-track tape was the traditional distribution mechanism for 2BSD up
until 2.10.1BSD at which time TK50s (TMSCP) support was added. The
kit was 2 tapes at 1600bpi but the system has grown enough that a
3rd tape might be required today. At 6250bpi everything fits quite
nicely on a single tape (might be a bit tight at 3200bpi though).
Attached below is the Setup/Installation document from 2.11BSD
(last revised in June 1995). It is a gzip'd postscript file uuencoded
for safe transit thru the mail.
[ It's now at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/2bsdsetup.ps.gz - Warren ]
Steven Schultz
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<There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. T
Boots for this list were found in the RT11 pocket guide, the longest was
31words. Most about 20.
rx01
rx02
tm11
tju16
rp02/3
rjs03/4
rk11
rf11
dectape(tu60)
dectapeII(tu58)
RL01/2
Rk06
<first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instruct
<(28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader'
The tu58 is also short and can load any program with code in block 0
(default boot block). the tu58 can also simulate a console driving ODT.
The best part if TU58 is serial interface and can be hooked up to any
unix/linux/dos/cpm/Whatever box that has a serial port.
<On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies.
<The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3
<bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pre
<good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems.
the above describes a strategy.
Well, transparent or system based the blocks are allocated. CP/M does not
do block replacement but utilities can mark bad blocks by allocating them,
or revector them at the hardware level. I believe mkfs does this. Some
disks like the RQDXn do this at the hardware level.
Allison
<Ok, there is a Wilson emulator: E11 which (apparently) runs on DOS
<boxen.
Have it but, the point is to run it on a hardware -11 afterall, I have one.
<KSERVE is the name, as a previous poster has pointed out (thanx).
Went and got it, now I have to transfer it and asm it.
<If the image is on another machine, then use KERMIT + KSERVE.
<
<If not, I guess COPY /DEVICE FOO.IMG DL2:
Bingo.
Allison
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There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. The
first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instructions
(28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader'
which will load formatted data (paper tape!). The format is trival
and has checksums and stop/transfer blocks. The trick is to convert the
unix secordary boot loader from V7 or BSD 2.9-2.11 and then you have
mini loader with lots of device drivers. I can provide some of these
programs including the paper tape listings and images (heck, I still have
a working paper tape reader/punch). You can load ANY PDP-11 this way!
Another approach if you have any of the LSI-11 based cpus with microcoded
console emulator is to use the Xinu suite. It does an initial bootstrap
by sending console commands and then loading a binary boostrap.
On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies.
The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3
bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pretty
good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems. Files-11 (IAS/RSX) was
the only system to offer bad block replacement (I cannot be sure for RSTS).
When bigger disk drives started showing up, like the RM02/3's and RM05, the
usual practive was to buy packs with 'zero' defects.
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Re Heriot-Watt stripped-down 7th Edition...
Warren wrote:
> Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
> off those RL02s?
I did once attempt to read the tape on our department's Kenedy drive
(now disposed of) and managed to get all but a few blocks near the
beginning. It seems to be a pretty standard distribution tape, with a
layout as described in the Unix Programmer's Manual Vol.2 (Jan.1979).
I have a 1600bpi copy (modulo the bad blocks) somewhere (I wonder where
I put it?). I wouldn't bother about making another copy; if anyone
deparately wants to try, I guess I might loan the original. But AFAIK
there's only a couple of Makefiles that differ, and I have those on the
RL02s.
I don't have any version of kermit that will run under 7th Edition on
an 11/23 (the normal versions are too big), but text files are perfectly
easy to copy.
Pete
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<From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE>
<Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along
<with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for
<its rise to fame.
Th paraphrase Lions, It's one we can look at the dirty parts of and the good
ones too. Yes it has warts and we can see them for what they are,
engineering compromizes of the time.
<If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the
<DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the
<90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.)
It begs the question of what is required and what si nice to have?
<What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to
<operating systems in the last twenty years. :-)
Yes. Very unfortunate too. Good design is far more rare.
<(Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend
<that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose
<of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix
<nowadays...)
Somehow I find that to be the central point. I apply the same rule to CP/M
for z80s.
Fully thing there is a groups doing an embedded linux kernal (ELKS) and
they act like doing it on a 16bit machine is majik and something like a
z80 means far to stripped to be of use. Seems they missed the point.
Allison
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<For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim
<I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
<ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
<but it worked.
How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02
assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media?
Allison
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:01:55 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:01:55 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST)
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>In article by pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk:
>> Warren wrote:
>> > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions
>> > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition',
>>
>> If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is
>> running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was
>> build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space,
>> such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There
>> are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these
>> are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a
>> makefile to configure and build for a small machine.
>>
>> It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff
>> is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is
>> modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'.
>>
>> I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and
>> also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised.
>>
>> Pete
>
>Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
>off those RL02s?
If the need is large enough, I can roll out a TU77 and connect it to Magica
to read the stuff. That means Sweden, though...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:09:43 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:09:43 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:43:28 -0400
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>Not true. They all did as bad blocks have been a fact of life for all
>computers since day one. Some of the ealy unixes used crude methods
>from a perfomance standoint but, the bad block replacement was there.
Well, not day one, but that come pretty early. Quality of the magnetic
media wasn't really that good back then, so you usually *had* to
expect a few bad spots on any disk.
On PDP-11's, I would supect that Unix went with DEC's BAD144 standard
pretty fast. (When did that standard come, btw?)
>Do read LIONS commentary. I was able to get a copy from the local library
>here in eastern MA (USA) along with several books on BSD design. Unix was
>really ahead of the pack on many things.
Not to be a pain in the ass or so, but in what ways was Unix ahead of
anything?
Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporary
operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (and
still are...)
Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:22:21 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:22:21 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:26:17 -0400
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><For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim
><I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
><ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
><but it worked.
>
>How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02
>assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media?
Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
experience.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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<Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
<experience.
They were low in defects<frequently none> but there was remaping so platters
with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a
pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed.
Allison
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 08:49:54 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:49:54 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:38 -0400
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>
><Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
><experience.
>
>They were low in defects<frequently none> but there was remaping so platters
>with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a
>pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed.
No exacly invisible... The operating system had to be aware of the bad spots,
and invent some scheme or other to hide the spots from the user.
OS/8's solution is rather hairy. I know, since I didn't have a "formatter"
program, so I needed to write one, given the source of the device driver...
Bad spots on MSCP disks on the other hand are totally invisible.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 08:55:55 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:55:55 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:31 -0400
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><Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporar
><operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (an
><still are...)
>
>yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in
>that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used
>multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80,
>NS*dos<z80>, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to
>look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time.
Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along
with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for
its rise to fame.
If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the
DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the
90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.)
><Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-
>
>If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is
>more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the
>time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a
>microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989.
What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to
operating systems in the last twenty years. :-)
Who knows how many things Microsoft has reinvented in the last few
years, and Unix hasn't been much better either...
(Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend
that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose
of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix
nowadays...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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