> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:56:09 +1000 (EST)
>
> Dennis Ritchie has unearthed some really old Unix a.out
> executables from around 1st Edition - 2nd Edition period: see
> Distributions/research/1973_stuff in the PUPS Archive.
>
> These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant
> USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
> thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
There's a good table in the back of the more recent micro-11 manuals.
The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember coming across was
an incompatibility in the result of
MOV SP, -(SP)
It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular
instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the
time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
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There is huge difference between the machines, but not backwards!
The 11/20 doesn't have :-
EIS instructions like div, mul, ash etc
FPU instructions like fmul ...
MMU no memory management of any sort, 56Kb memory, 8Kb I/O page
and hence no user modes, 16 bit addressing
So a program written for a 11/20 should work untouched on an 11/45 except for
some very minor (and ugly) instruction sequences involving using the same
register for both source and destination eg mov r2,-(r2), or jmp (r2)+.
The behaviour of the trace trap and T bit is also different.
There is a list of differences some some of the PDP/11 handbooks (perhaps the
latter architecture book).
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep 8 10:50:39 1999
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Subject: Re: KE11-A! (was Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?)
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> I also see that unit 1 lives at 777300 - 777316, and the date a.out
> executable does this:
Yep; I read through my own 11/20 handbook, and I remembered that
EAE weirdness.
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Sep 8 10:49:36 1999
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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> From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
> The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember coming across was
> an incompatibility in the result of
>
> MOV SP, -(SP)
Similarily
MOV R0,(R0)+
won't work as expected on some 11s. I suspect that the even less
likely case of "mov pc,-(pc)" won't work either :-)
> It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular
> instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the
Fairly common when setting up call frames, etc. You want the
address of where the arguments start and since they're pushed on the
stack 'sp' is the value you want.
There's a comment in 2BSD (I think it came from V7) where mention is
made that "we can't do sp,-(sp) because it won't work on the 11/40".
> time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out.
Hmmm, interesting. The workaround I saw took an extra instruction.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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Hi all,
Dennis Ritchie has unearthed some really old Unix a.out
executables from around 1st Edition - 2nd Edition period: see
Distributions/research/1973_stuff in the PUPS Archive.
[ Actually, I suspect his dates are a year off: they should be 1972 ]
I've printed off the 1st Ed manuals from Dennis' web page, and I'm
attempting to get my a.out emulator, Apout, to run these old binaries.
I've got a few working. cat works. ls and date run, but sort of give
strange outputs.
These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant
USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
There is no source code with these binaries, so I can't use that to help
debug the emulator. I do have the following processor handbooks:
PDP-11 /20 /15 /R20 1972
PDP-11 /45 1973
PDP-11 /04 /34 /45 /55 /60 1978-79
I just thought I'd ask for pointers here before I hit them for details.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Sep 7 11:10:25 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199909070110.LAA12638(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: KE11-A! (was Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:10:25 +1000 (EST)
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Hi all,
I've just answered my own question. Reading thru the 11/20
processor handbook, I see the section on the extended arithmetic element,
KE11-A, which is ``an option to perform multiplication, division,
multiple position shifts and normalization significantly faster than
software routines''.
I also see that unit 1 lives at 777300 - 777316, and the date a.out
executable does this:
230: TRAP 15 time syscall
232: MOV #177770,@#177314
240: MOV #47432,@#177300
246: ADD #5,@#177304
254: MOV #7,@#177300
262: MOV @#177302,@#177304
270: MOV #5,@#177306
276: ADD #40622,@#177304
304: MOV @#177304,320
. . .
So it looks like I need to add KE11-A support to my emulator :-)
Cheers,
Warren
The sub-disks that one divide real disks into on UNIX systems are usually
called `partitions' these days. But that's not what they were originally
called on UNIX:
- V7 hp(4) and rp(4) refer to `sections' and `pseudo-disks'. 32V hp(4)
refers to `portions' and `pseudo-disks.' Later Research UNIX manuals,
once Section 4 was being edited again, settled on `sections.'
- System V Release 5.0 (the most recent system for which I have the device
driver part of the manual) also refers just to `sections.' (So far as I
can remember, this convergence was a coincidence; I think I'm the one who
decided to use `sections' on the Research side, and I think I did so just
because it was the more graceful of the historic cases, though my memory
is not clear.)
- 3BSD and 4.0BSD follow 32V; in 4.1BSD, the term `partition' appears as well.
The System V preference for `section' lives on in the device naming scheme
on System-V-derived, but the documentation even on those systems just says
`partition' these days.
It looks to me like `partition' came in from the Berkeley world. Does anyone
on the list remember where it came from? Was the new term introduced on
purpose, or did it just creep in in the way language usually changes?
Norman Wilson
Occasional pursuer of arcana
For any MSCP disk, the proper way to find out how many sectors there are
is to ask the disk. The `unit online' command (which has to be used anyway,
to tell the controller to connect to the disk) reports the unit size in
sectors; the `get unit status' command reports the number of sectors per
track, tracks per group, and groups per cylinder. (The term `group' here
is MSCP-speak which I've never really understood; the idea seems to be that
groups are collections of cylinders that can be switched between with relatively
little time penalty, whereas switching between even adjacent cylinders is more
expensive.)
Beware, however, that modern disks usually don't have a fixed number of
sectors per track; the tracks furthest from the spindle have more sectors,
so that more of the disk surface can be used without too much density
variation. Such `zoned' disks weren't common (maybe they didn't even exist)
when the MSCP spec was first written; maybe the RA92 is new enough that it
has zones.
I've never been convinced that worrying in great detail about track and
cylinder sizes gains much performance anyway, but that's another story.
Hi,
I wonder, does anyone know for sure what is the user capacity of an RA92 in
blocks? I'm now updating disktab(5) and the driver tables in 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
to cover new RA disks, and I can't figure out the user capacity of RA92 in
blocks. For all other RA disks with no exceptions (all RA8x, all RA7x, and
RA90) the user capacity in blocks is exactly equal to the number of cylinders
multiplied by the number of heads multiplied by the number of sectors, i.e., no
funny reserved sectors or tracks or anything like that. Looking in the
disktab(5) from Ultrix V4.2 I see a perfect match between the geometry and the
partition sizes for all disks except RA92. The RA92 entry indicates 3279
cylinders, 13 heads, and 69 sectors per track, but partition c is listed as
2940951 blocks instead of 3279*13*69=2941263 blocks. Does anyone know for sure
whether the user capacity of an RA92 is 2940951 blocks, 2941263 blocks, or
something else altogether?
--
Michael Sokolov
Special Agent
International Free Computing Task Force
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
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Hi,
Having solved the RA72 problem and the KDA50 problem, I'm ready to attack the
next problem. :-( This time the TK50. I have a very odd problem with it. When I
first power up the VAX, everything works fine. I can read tapes, restore dumps,
etc. Then after some uptime (apparently something heat-related) it starts
behaving very oddly. Tapes with 512-byte records still read just fine, but
trying to read a tape with 10240-byte records (such as a UNIX filesystem dump
tape) results in the controller returning a hard error indication of "record
data truncated". This is so odd that I first thought it was a software problem,
but it isn't, because this happens identically under 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 and
Ultrix V4.0, whose TMSCP drivers are completely different. The fact that the
problem occurs only after some uptime suggests some kind of overheat, which
would normally be a very low-level physical problem, but the record size
dependence suggests something high-level, more likely the controller than the
drive. This MicroVAX is still under the dealer's warranty (I just bought it on
Monday), so if this is a bad drive or controller, I can replace it, which which
of the two is it? Has anyone ever seen this problem before? Does anyone know
whether it is the drive or the controller that's bad? TIA.
--
Michael Sokolov
Special Agent
International Free Computing Task Force
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
P.S. The temperature in the machine room is 70F. Not the best for a machine
room, but the best you'd ever expect for an office, and I think the VAX has no
right to go on strike at 70F.
V7M was the DEC distribution of V7 (pre Ultrix days). Fred Canter did
most of the work, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
supported non ID space machines, and some of the newer DEC hardware.
My manual lists it as working with :-
CPUS:- 11/23, 34, 44, 45/50/55, 60 and 70
Disks:- RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02/3, RP04/5
Tapes:- TU10, TE10, TU16, TE16, TS11
There was a strip down of V6 called Miniunix that would run on machines
without memory management, such at the 11/20, 05, 10 and 35/40 (without MMU
option). It required a full 56Kb machine, used the first 28Kb for the kernel
and swapped the last 28Kb for each process. Pipes worked by using a temporary
inode to store the data and swapping the processes. It was realllllllll slow.
The was also a similar version for 11/03's. I remember that there was an early
bug in that updates would always rewrite open inodes (last access time had
changed). You could physically wear out a floppy disk, since it was forever
rewriting the sector with the inode for the console terminal.
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>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Thu Sep 2 16:06:50 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:06:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199909020606.XAA06196(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: V7M
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> Subject: Re: V7M
> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:44:29 -0700
> From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.mckusick.com>
>
> My recollection is that V7M stood for V7-mini. It was a
> striped down version of V7 that was designed to run on
> the very low-end PDP-11's (like the 11/20).
Well, actually the M was for Modified. Particularly modified to work
with some more DEC peripherals.
What ran on 11/20's was Mini-Unix, which was a stripped-down 6th
Edition. By the way I'm not sure that the PUPS archive has a Mini-Unix
tape. I have one, although it has not been read since the days when I
had an 11/20.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Sep 2 16:09:16 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: V7M
In-Reply-To: <199909020606.XAA06196(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> from Carl Lowenstein at "Sep 1, 1999 11: 6:50 pm"
To: cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:09:16 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Carl Lowenstein:
> Well, actually the M was for Modified. Particularly modified to work
> with some more DEC peripherals.
>
> What ran on 11/20's was Mini-Unix, which was a stripped-down 6th
> Edition. By the way I'm not sure that the PUPS archive has a Mini-Unix
> tape. I have one, although it has not been read since the days when I
> had an 11/20.
> carl
Yep, it's in Distributions/usdl/Mini-Unix. It's not in the research/
dir because it was not done in the labs, but elsewhere.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Anders Magnusson <ragge(a)ludd.luth.se> Thu Sep 2 18:05:23 1999
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Subject: Re: KDA50 woes
To: quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:05:23 +0200 (MET DST)
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In-Reply-To: <9909020115.AA00610(a)meson.jpsystems.com> from Michael Sokolov at "Sep 1, 99 08:15:23 pm"
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> Hi,
>
> I wonder, does anyone here know anything about the KDA50? I've solved my RA72
>
Well, something I think... :-)
[...]
>
> So my questions to the folks are: First, is my understanding of the situation
> correct? Second, what can be done about it? I guess as a temporary solution I
> can remove this problematic IPL autodetection code and hard-code the IPL of my
> KDA50, but what is it? Is the IPL set with switches on the KDA50 or how? And
> what do the KDA50 switches do in the first place? Does anyone know? TIA.
>
The IPL autodetect code has seemed to me as unneccessary. You know that
the KDA50 will always interrupt at spl5, so you can hard-code it in
the interrupt driver and nuke the autodetect code. The same with the
other drivers that can be on Qbus:
if (uh->uh_type == QBA)
spl5();
-- Ragge
Hi,
I wonder, does anyone here know anything about the KDA50? I've solved my RA72
problem (as it turns out, if there is no control panel connected, the drive
assumes normal operation, i.e., spin up, go on-line, enable port A, no write
protect, and the unit number between 0 and 7 is set by the switches on the
right side of the drive), but now I have a different problem: I can't get UNIX
(4.3BSD-Quasijarus of course) to recognize the KDA50, although it worked fine
on my Webster ESDI controller back in Ohio, and others have also reported
successfully booting it on different controllers. By inserting a few debugging
printouts in the uda driver, I have determined that it fails the udaprobe(). I
know very little about UDA50/KDA50 registers, so I may be wrong, but it looks
to me that the code is trying to do the following. It diddles the controller
registers to make it start the initialization. Then apparently it expects the
controller to interrupt and set some status bits in some register. However,
because of Q-bus's odd interrupt protocol and the need to determine the IPL of
the controller, the procedure is done non-trivially. First it does an spl6(),
disabling all interrupts except BR7 (which these controllers apparently don't
use). Then it does the register diddling and testing with these interrupts
disabled. It allows the CPU to field the interrupt only when the register bits
indicate that the operation has been performed and the interrupt has been
posted. Apparently the assumption is that the controller will post the
interrupt and then set the right bits in the right registers without waiting
for the CPU to field the interrupt. Also apparently the KDA50 is different and
doesn't set those bits until the interrupt is fielded, breaking this code.
So my questions to the folks are: First, is my understanding of the situation
correct? Second, what can be done about it? I guess as a temporary solution I
can remove this problematic IPL autodetection code and hard-code the IPL of my
KDA50, but what is it? Is the IPL set with switches on the KDA50 or how? And
what do the KDA50 switches do in the first place? Does anyone know? TIA.
--
Michael Sokolov
Special Agent
International Free Computing Task Force
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
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>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> Thu Sep 2 09:44:29 1999
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To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: V7M
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Aug 1999 09:41:23 +1000."
<199908082341.JAA83043(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:44:29 -0700
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
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My recollection is that V7M stood for V7-mini. It was a
striped down version of V7 that was designed to run on
the very low-end PDP-11's (like the 11/20).
Kirk McKusick
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Sep 2 15:25:35 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:25:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: V7M
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> From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM>
>
> My recollection is that V7M stood for V7-mini. It was a
> striped down version of V7 that was designed to run on
> the very low-end PDP-11's (like the 11/20).
Hmmm, interesting. My memories dredge up the 'M' as meaning
"Modified". Don't recall it ever being touted as 11/20 capable
56kb, no MMU would be a wee bit too mini I'd think - was there ever
a V7 that could run without an MMU? If there was I've completely
forgotten about it.
Steven Schultz
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Hi,
I wonder, does anyone know how to set the unit number on an RA72 manually,
without the RA7x control panel? I need to put two RA72s in a BA123, I have the
skidplates under the drives, the KDA50 and the right internal SDI cables, but
this is a BA123, so I don't have that RA7x control panel they put in 3500/3600
skunk boxes. I know that on RF drives if you don't have that panel connector,
the drive has its own switches or jumpers to set the DSSI node number, and I'm
sure that the same is true for the SDI unit number on RA7x drives. There is a
pack of 3 DIP switches on the right side of the RA72, is that the unit number?
If so, is bit 0 on the left or on the right? Is 1 up or down? TIA.
--
Michael Sokolov
Special Agent
International Free Computing Task Force
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
