Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to
disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to
recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed
from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to
routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is
KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any
SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the
drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked.
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the
Quasijarus mailing list.
If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn
to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the
Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall
compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 07:41:53 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000(a)world.std.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>
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On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
>
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. The
people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I
think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck.
There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. It will also run 4.3BSD
binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models
less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60
work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent. For
the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries
may help a bit.
Hope this helps.
THor
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Sat Jan 30 08:07:36 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901292207.RAA18899(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000(a)world.std.com> from "allisonp(a)world.std.com" at Jan 29, 99 04:06:28 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
-- Ken
> [...] There are however issues in that the hard disk
> interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
> some performance degrdation. [...]
>
> Allison
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How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD? I'm thinking
about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc. I'd like to set up a
system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
show up in places like eBay. Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?
--Mirian
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Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> wrote:
> How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD? I'm thinking
> about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc. I'd like to set up a
> system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
> Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
> show up in places like eBay. Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
> use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?
Subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list using standard Majordomo commands and
post your question there. I'll answer it.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote:
> I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
I got a whole different perspective on that Snake Oil thing after reading
"A Quarter Century of UNIX" by Peter Salus. According to Armando Stettner
(DEC Ultrix Architect) Ken Olsen meant, "Much the way people were peddling
snake oil a century ago, now every vendor is hyping Unix as a cure for
everything". He was only making a analogy but the statement was "taken
out of context". Anyway, the book has been enjoyable.
Mike
P.S. Where is Armando now? Is he still doing Unix stuff?
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 28 09:10:55 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at 5:23:58 -0800, David C. Jenner wrote:
> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>>
>> At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>>
>> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
>> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
>> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
>> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
>> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
>> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
>> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
>> couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
> honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
> net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
> power failure finally got it.
>
> It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
> factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The
> system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
> usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
> Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
> for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.
I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 28 10:07:22 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901280007.QAA27431(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, grog(a)lemis.com
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
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Hi -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
Well, it tries its darndest to do so. If the system gets its
knickers sufficiently twisted I've seen it hang part way thru
printing the panic message. 'course then there are the self
inflicted crashes where an errant driver scribbles all over memory,
in which case you may not get a meaningful indication of what
went wrong ;)
Steven
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jan 28 10:11:56 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com>
cc: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>,
PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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> > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
>
> SURE !!!
> I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
> line printer console ;-))
I have only one things to say to you guys; TECO.
(And besides, EMACS is just a bunch of macros for TECO, GNU-EMACS don't
even count... ;-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Thu Jan 28 13:24:31 1999
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From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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Yes, and it was almost 2 years between reboots. Otherwise, they were
rather rare, and I can't remember why. I have all the console logs
around somewhere under a pile, and if/when I uncover them, I'll look
through them to see what happened. Maybe I'll suddenly report it here
in 6 months--after my next reboot, err, cleanup.
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
>
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
> finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Jan 28 18:05:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:26 -0800 (PDT)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> > encourage you to do it, I suppose.
>
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe,
"Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 29 03:54:42 1999
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From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Brian D Chase wrote:
> "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
> commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic
Yeah, what kind of sadistic, malicious bastards would create a *free*
version of unix, then port it to nearly every platform imaginable!!?!?
What could have been going through their twisted minds?
----------------------------------------------------------
"...and an eternity, my friend, is a long f*cking time..."
Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive
a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific
cases where the system did pretty well. The collection of MicroVAX II parts
I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP
routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0).
Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only
for hardware failures. (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the
disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.)
Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these
systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned
in 1990 or 1991.
Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 14:38:23 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm"
To: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca
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In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
> Norman Wilson
Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by
power failure.
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:12:57 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: UNIX robustness
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At least it's a different thread... ;-)
I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
couple months after that the disk died ;-)
Steven
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:15:08 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness
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Hi -
I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without
reboooting. Then the power went out and spoiled the streak. Started
over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died.
Sigh.
Steven
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Jan 27 23:23:58 1999
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From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
power failure finally got it.
It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The
system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.
Dave
"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>
> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
> couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> Steven
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Jan 28 01:14:30 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901271514.KAA30920(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the
University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX
one) just for the *real* troff code. When I say "real" I mean the code
that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think).
We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think,
driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can
check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details
if someone is interested. -- Ken
| In article by alejandro gonzalez:
| >
| > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
| > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
| > the orginial distribution
| >
| > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
| > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
| >
| > Alex
|
| All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
| Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
| they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
| Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
|
| Warren
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>From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> Thu Jan 28 03:21:11 1999
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From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>
To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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Thor Lancelot Simon < tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>...or vi versus Emacs.
What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
--
Jorgen Pehrson (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3))
jp(a)spektr.eu.org (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200
spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS)
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>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 28 03:41:15 1999
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: "Jorgen Pehrson" <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>,
"PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700
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Hi Jorgen,
----------
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>
> To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
> Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM
> What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
SURE !!!
I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
line printer console ;-))
cheers,
emanuel
<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The
<is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co
<do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely. Ultrix never drive
every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS. It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS
of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion.
Allison
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<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme
<oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr
The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased
with public domain trimmings to anyone. Calling it opression or anything
else is a transparent attempt to evade the law.
<supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o
<non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
<universally agreed to be unethical.
When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem. Copyrighted firmware
is not that.
Allison
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<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t
<establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f
That is not the problem. You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu
card and that is unreleased copyrighted code.
<Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod
<updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba
<DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful.
Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that
they were grandfatherd. In either case by not doing that your potentially
liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit. Copyright is
a legal issue.
<UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM
Not an issue and that is not the rom image.
<The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and
<to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
<upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw
<upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff
<would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V
<UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin
<support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.
Not true. While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still
their ownership. Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts
are still quite available.
Allison
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My two cents' worth on the latest fuss:
It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete
proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve
the present problem. The real trouble right now is one or two people who
cannot resist waving their antlers around in public. We could eliminate
them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7)
to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7,
that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between
2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?). There's also a
genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI
peripheral devices for a start).
More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to
keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both
of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal
to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting
everything to everyone no matter how peripheral. (Which is not to say that
discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.) For example, I had a handful
of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent
postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them
directly to him.
To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who
once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio
if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail
directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public.
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 13:38:45 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270338.OAA01601(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496(a)krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999 3:50:54 am"
To: joerg(a)krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Joerg B. Micheel:
> > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
> > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
> You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split.
No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them
next week.
Warren
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:
> I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
> PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
> software license.
Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
compressed and uuencoded.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 10:35:41 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Hi -
> Johnny Billquist
> Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Yeah, it could. So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now.
> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all).
Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented
very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to
read;)).
Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let
the adaptor do the BBR <g>
Steven
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 27 11:38:19 1999
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that
it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block
replacement working passably. And there still remain
situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations.
Tim.
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:12:31 1999
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Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
References: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
> development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
> the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
> 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.
Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:16:53 1999
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Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
References: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
> oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
> my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
> moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
> software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
> supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
> non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
> universally agreed to be unethical.
As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting.
BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against
other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again
citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting
*BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it
comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate
it's value and impact.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:38:21 1999
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Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
References: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
> of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
> copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
> an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
> compressed and uuencoded.
With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite
willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the
purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely.
If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give
it a try ...
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 12:51:07 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST)
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All,
I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few
rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go...
1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to
UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and
their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the
above. It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However....
2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development,
including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers
should create a communications channel to target their own audience.
For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd.
To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus,
quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures.
Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and
announcements about this system can reach them.
In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these
mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and
announcements.
3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There
have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no
single `best' system.
4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone,
then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number
of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive.
If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their
list postings.
I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still
collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if
we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to
the list as it is now.
Thanks all,
Warren
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