TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

5 participants
6532 discussions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the code and preserved it from loss. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03203 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:37 +1000 (EST) >From shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Sat Aug 1 02:22:23 1998 Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03197 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-243-104.s41.as4.rkv.erols.com [207.172.243.104]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04398; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7(a)erols.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400 From: shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Reply-To: shsrms(a)ero_nospam_ls.com Organization: Holistic Horizons/Waverider Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: msokolov(a)blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu, port-vax(a)netbsd.org Subject: Re: Thoughts... References: <9807311220.AA16681(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Fellow PUPS Listers, could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if he is an agitation program done by the psychology department? Thanks bob Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote: > > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > > seems to be slowly vaporizing... > > Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best > military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists > that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu -- real address is shsrms at erols dot com The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST) >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Sat Aug 1 02:47:07 1998 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03317; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04498; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA14549; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199807311647.KAA14549(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> To: grog(a)lemis.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their questions or comments about their system. I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> wrote: > Proper Unix Preservation Society! Yes! I vote for this! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02735 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:09 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: Thoughts...

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote: > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > seems to be slowly vaporizing... Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02441 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:25:32 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, > and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? Yes! > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. Yes! Personally, I think it's a bad idea to have two separate societies/lists. After all, in many case PDP-11 UNIX and VAX UNIX are the same code compiled for different CPUs, and these lists are not about binary-only OSes, are they? If it's all fundamentally the same code, it should be on one list, regardless of what CPUs people want to compile it for. I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults. Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve" them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and create a 1980s world inside! So, with these ideas in mind, why not call ourselves TUUDS, True UNIX User and Developer Society? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02203 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:34 +1000 (EST) >From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul 31 21:12:16 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02197 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from stacy@localhost) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03207 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500 From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Message-Id: <199807311112.QAA03207(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Thoughts... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi All! > From: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) >I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the >group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is >being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the >impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults. >Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve" >them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave >AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net >competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing >active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes >do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and >create a 1980s world inside! Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are seems to be slowly vaporizing... I spent about ten years searching until I finally got original Digital PDP-11 here in Uzbekistan (xUSSR) ! And I succeeded only because I started working for Digital here. Stacy. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02334 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:54 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Jul 31 21:54:50 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02329; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16048; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03301; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199807311154.MAA03301(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey), rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. I'm on both, I'm interested in stuff about both. I would have thought that the overlap is fairly large. --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02319 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:56:18 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Jul 31 21:55:32 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02314; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:55:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16054; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:33 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03303; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199807311155.MAA03303(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> References: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * David C Jenner wrote: > I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the > Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society > or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective > that glorifies the olden Unix. Proper Unix Preservation Society! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02386 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:42 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any is better than zero. < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik < that. That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000 are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a bit large. Frankly, why not? Anything that competes with MS is good! < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user. Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses. Like all gods their feet are of clay. Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime, even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03871 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:54 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:27:12 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03866; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04034; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807291727.NAA04034(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... In-Reply-To: <9807291552.AA12576(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 29, 98 11:52:57 am" To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > > the rush to NT and SCOish things. > > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent. But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on. > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) Clearly yours are more mainstream related. Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things. Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their related unices, even the 32bitters. > I have two strong and radical views: > > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like > that. Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x). Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat, no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar). > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. Well, yes and no. I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan, Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance. As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks. But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code, nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32 bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO. > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov With all due respect. R.D. Keys rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03980 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:13 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:57:22 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03968; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04109; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807291757.NAA04109(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts (what have we started?) In-Reply-To: <199807291631.AA16185(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul 29, 98 12:31:06 pm" To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any > is better than zero. Well said, but perhaps we need to frame that with something like, ``all will win, even the least....'' > < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U > < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik > < that. > > That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000 > are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems > while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a > bit large. Can anyone refresh my memory of what machines specifically were listed in the V7 and 32V and 2/3/4BSD docs? I would like to get that clear, for reference purposes. Also, what specific machines were ported out of these main sources by the odd vendors. The majority was pdp11ish, but about V7 time the 68000 and Z8000 and other oddities pop up. > < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI > < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod > < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS > > It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious > license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which > were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the > license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible > to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source > code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user. > Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not > saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course > they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses. I would agree on the necessity. Back in '88 I went shopping for an office machine, and could find nothing under around 25 kilobucks. I opted out for a peanuts budget machine (PS/2 model 80 with AIX) at around 10K bucks and the silly thing is still whirring away as my remote tape dumper. Alas, it is a much maligned PC, but it functions nontheless, and IS a real unix. Alas, these days, its steam is a little underpowered trying to scrape the web, so it idles in the background. Technically, it is a 32 bit abandoned unix, and for hypotheticals, it ought to be something workable in a BUPS sort of archive, with proper Big Blue nodding. The same thing should occur for the RT. It would probably be a nightmare of paperwork between SCO and IBM and us, tho..... > Like all gods their feet are of clay. The gods were hacking away fine.... alas the beanyheads upstairs had their feet stuck, if I am reading my history correctly. > Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime, > even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people > understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed. The goal is to save it if possible, BEFORE it becomes vaporware, for purely hobby/historical purposes, with the big player's graces and consents. If we don't dream a little and oil some squeeky wheels, it will never get done..... > Allison RDK Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14668 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:18:07 +1000 (EST) >From "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> Thu Jul 30 16:02:39 1998 Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14663; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:17:49 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199807300606.XAA11564(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org> From: "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>, "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: <bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:02:39 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA14664 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm glad there are people and codebases that compete with Microsoft -- and I work for Microsoft. It keeps us on our toes. :-) I run NT 4.0 and Linux 2.0.30 side-by-side at home, on the selfsame network -- and all on Intel hardware. I am on this mailing list because I am gaining a PDP 11/34 as a new resident in my home, which will be networked together with the Intel hardware (so I don't have to run downstairs all the time -- the PDP is too large for my computer room upstairs). Why? Call it a sense of history.... Why shouldn't UNIX run on everything? The beauty of the UNIX idea -- which has been cloned and transported and transliterated and transmogrified a myriad times a myriad times -- is that it expresses a rich metaphor for computation, which allows us to make use of these metal monsters. I have the greatest respect for "true" UNIX and its parents and godparents. I also have a lot of respect for Linus Torvalds and the incredible piece of work he birthed -- a true UNIX version that makes excellent use of the PC architecture. The PC architecture has commoditized significant computing power in a manner that Digital could never have done (or at least, never did), and placed that into the hands of many people who would be otherwise financially barred from playing this game. IMHO it's specious to demonize a particular machine architecture and declare that UNIXes running on it are somehow illegitimate. Cheers -- Ian King NOTE: this is strictly my personal ramblings, and does not in any way represent the official position of the Microsoft Corporation. ---------- > From: User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> > Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 10:27 AM > > > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > > > the rush to NT and SCOish things. > > > > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! > > No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood > boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the > beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent. > But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen > or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's > machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys > are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box > won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on. > > > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen > > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate > > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, > > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and > > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins > > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my > > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly > > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 > > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) > > Clearly yours are more mainstream related. > > Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one > on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things. > > Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to > Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are > many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there > are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us > to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest > that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their > related unices, even the 32bitters. > > > I have two strong and radical views: > > > > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX > > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like > > that. > > Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis > of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly > PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to > their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past > 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x). > Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that > most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat, > no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar). > > > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX > > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code > > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, > > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The > > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True > > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the > > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. > > Well, yes and no. > > I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan, > Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their > reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did > the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something > like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance. > As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever > box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with > a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big > dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks. > > But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code, > nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss > of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32 > bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO. > > > Sincerely, > > Michael Sokolov > > With all due respect. > > R.D. Keys > rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00214 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:22:06 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jul 31 11:20:35 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00201; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:21:49 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08798; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:35 +1000 (EST) Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00743 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:22 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Jul 31 13:24:43 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00738; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip44.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.244]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07370; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:49 -0700 Message-ID: <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:43 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) References: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective that glorifies the olden Unix. Almost everything has been cross-posted up to this point, and I get two copies anyway! Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > > > Greg > > I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, > and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > > Cheers all, > > Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01084 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:32:13 +1000 (EST) >From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul 31 15:29:46 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01078 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:30:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from stacy@localhost) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01933 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500 From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Message-Id: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Let'em be one! Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I also vote for one list. Stacy. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01162 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:58 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jul 31 15:54:00 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01157 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:54 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09629 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:01 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807310554.PAA09629(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Let'em be one! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:00 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Stacy Minkin at "Jul 31, 98 10:29:46 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Stacy Minkin: > > I also vote for one list [about old UNIX]. > Stacy. Looks like most people would like a common list, so I have merged the two lists. The PUPS list is now for Prehistoric UNIX :-) I'll keep the PUPS web page about PDP-11 stuff for now, though. The bups@minnie list is gone, and all mail for the list should now go to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. What next? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02057 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:08:38 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > the rush to NT and SCOish things. Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) I have two strong and radical views: 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like that. 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03595 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:31:20 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

None

by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca

A postscript to my note on the old manuyals (typed into the editor but not written out before I sent the mail!): A note on distributing this stuff: I asked Dennis about it before I started my project, and he thought there should be no real problem making the text generally available, but that it would be appropriate for the official repository to be at Bell Labs (now a once-again-visible subsidiary of Lucent Technologies). That seems pretty sensible to me. I doubt there's a problem putting them in the PUPS archive, but it would be politic to check with Dennis first. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01345 for pups-liszt; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:27 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 29 13:55:36 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:23 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05056 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807290355.NAA05056(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PUPS: status report To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society. Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so we can stay informed of the progress. A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11 UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project. If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying: subscribe bups BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come up with a better name :-) Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03282 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:39 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 01:03:47 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03271; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03577; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807291503.LAA03577(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... In-Reply-To: <199807290355.NAA05056(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 29, 98 01:55:36 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Hi all, > Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society. > Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run > of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so > we can stay informed of the progress. This will be great when it happens. Kudos to Kirk.....and all the unsung heroes along the path to Nirvana. > A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation > society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11 > UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project. > If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing > to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying: > > subscribe bups > > BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > up with a better name :-) PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! I will jump in the hotseat and own up to the heat. My idea was very simple. Mainly, I was thinking that there are beginning to surface from the bilges of surplus, a fair number of aging old-time unix toys. Not all of them are PDP-11ish flavor. For instance, there are sometimes found some of the ancient Radio Shack Model 16 things with an odd flavor of Xenix on them. There are maybe some old vaxen going wanting. There are odd bilgewater sloshers like my old IBM RT that once did ply the waters of the great BSD (of the 4.3 style flavor). Also, there are older x86 toys that use to run the very lowendian V7ish, Xenixish, whateverish flavors. From the purely hobby and historical perspective, I find it rather wasteful to let such things just vaporize. It seems we have the PDP11 world, then there is a big black hole until the modern SCOish and Freebieish things. It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with the rush to NT and SCOish things. Thus, there is a need to maybe fill that hole with something like the PUPS, but for 32bitish toys, and all the non-PDP-11 toys. One thing that PUPS has going, is a good working basis with all the unixy world, the big players, the historical saints, etc. So, it was logical to perceive that such a working framework might be expanded slightly to include not just 32V, but all the odd successors, down to where SCO claims rightly its territory on the SysV part of the tree. IF that framework is a BUPS offshoot, so-be-it. But, I still think that both PUPS and the new BUPS share much common cammaraderie and playground. Alas, I am not yet of sufficient rank to be called but a lowly journeyman, in the unixy world. I have run it in earnest for some 10 years, played some with it on a PDP-11, so long ago, that it is mostly forgotten, and still keep a set of 8 inch Xenix floppers around, just in case that mystical Model 16B drops by, again. Thus, there is not a lot I can do. But, I do toss out the idea, would like to see where it goes. Mebbie some heavyweight gurus would like to run with it some..... Let us roll it around a bit, and see where the currents takes us. The 32BitBiggieUPS should not be forgotten. I think it can only be good for all to make it play..... Sincerely R.D. Keys rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu > Cheers all, > Warren Cheers all hands aboard PUPS, BUPS, .... burp!, .... whatever..... RDK Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03488 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:52:41 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

None

by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca

I hadn't expected Warren to forward my note directly to the list, so perhaps I'd better fill in some of the missing content. What I'm trying to do with the old manuals is a mix of different sorts of historic preservation: it's interesting to be able to produce something reasonably close to the original in appearance, including style differences, but I am also interested just in making the content accessible. That means being able to render the manual pages into troff -man on modern UNIX systems, or into nroff /man/man0/naa in the V5 root image, and roff and whatnot; but also into HTML because that's the right way to make text available on the web (Postscript is not text), and certainly into other forms I haven't thought of yet. To describe it all in utterly pragmatic terms, I want to be able to put all the old manuals up on the web somewhere in readable text form (not just page images or Postscript); and to produce manual data of authentic content and reasonably authentic style for use with the V5 binary distribution; and to be able to to print clear reference copies for myself, so I can pack my old photocopies away in a safe place; and to amuse myself by running style and diction on the different editions; and I want to be able to do that even if I don't have a copy of roff or the appropriate age-authentic macro package. So the idea is to mark up the text in a sufficiently high-level form that it can be rendered into any of the forms above (including the ones I haven't thought of) without undo work. I thought briefly about using the (V7-era) -man macros as the high-level language, and in fact much of the simple language I ended up inventing are obviously drawn from -man (e.g. there are constructs that are exactly .TH, .SH, and .SS spelled differently); but I wanted to avoid the temptation just to toss in more and more troff-specific syntax and semantics whenever some hard-to-represent construct popped up. (There are too many low-level constructs in the resulting language as it is.) I also thought about using some existing document metalanguage like XML or YODL, but those I looked at were far more ornate than seemed appropriate, and far too free-form; I don't mind carrying a few medium-sized awk programs around to render the text, but I object to having to port a language-processing subsystem larger than the V5 kernel just so I can render V5's manual pages. (Never mind how large awk and troff are these days.) There's a name I should also name here: my collaborator in California to whom the earlier message alludes is Jennine Townsend, who has photocopies of my photocopies from a sort of earlier collaboration. More on this in a few days; as I said to Warren, I hope to get a coherent sample of all this work up on the web shortly so people can see what I'm doing in more detail and comment, but I am in the midst of deciding whether to change jobs (it is a coincidence that the likely job change would put me nearer the OCR setup I've been using, but it is convenient), and in getting back into the swing of things at my present job after being out for two weeks to recover from having corrective maintenance on my sinuses, so it may not happen till the weekend. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25486 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:33 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote: > > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. > > Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they > were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus > controllers. I don't know if it's their only business, but they still sell (and hopefully make) these controllers. One of their guys was trying to sell me one just a few months ago. Of course, their prices are way off-base compared to the used market. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19102 for pups-liszt; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:30 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Jul 12 12:59:31 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19097 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01524; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:32 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807120259.MAA01524(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS To: jim(a)sco.COM (Jim Sullivan) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980710080445.00691374(a)mammoth.sco.com> from Jim Sullivan at "Jul 10, 98 11:12:48 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Jim Sullivan: > Do you know if anyone from PUPS is going to SCO Forum/Usenix in > August in Santa Cruz? > > If so, we'd love to connect, if just to say Hi! > > Also, SCO has a quarterly Developer's newsletter, called CoreDump. > Would anyone within PUPS be interested in submitting an article > for the next edition? 500 words outlining the goals of PUPS > and how to join/participate? Seems like a nice way to quietly > promote your efforts. > > What do you think? Hi Jim, I'll pass this email on to the mailing list. I'll probably take you up on the article. Thanks! I'm in Australia & not likely to get to Santa Cruz in any hurry. :-( Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21845 for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:50 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Jul 13 13:47:55 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21838 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07263; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807130347.NAA07263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Recovering old UNIX manuals To: norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <WAA00038(a)lion.cs.yorku.ca> from "norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca" at "Jul 12, 98 10:20:04 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into machine-readable format. Warren norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca writes: > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front, > right now there is: > - a small collection of tools to pre-process what comes out > of the OCR into something that is easy to mark up. > Specifically there are a couple of little filters that > fix up the non-ASCII characters emitted by the Mac, and > that glue hyphenated words back together; and a rather > bigger awk script that does some of the easy grunt work > like spotting and marking up entry titles and section headers. > - a description of the markup language (written in itself, > of course). > - a program (also in awk, and surprisingly long) to render > the markup language into approximately V7 -man. (I have > actually done all the work so far on the MicroVAX in my > basement, which is one of the last remaining V10 systems > in the world, and it won't surprise me to learn that the > renderer has accidentally picked up some V10-specific > assumptions.) > - a collection of advice on style and known OCR botches > and whatnot for those who mark up and proof the manuals > as they go through the pipe. (At the moment `those' means > me and my collaborator in California.) > > The most important missing tools and writings are something to render > into HTML, and something that explains a little more generally just > what it is I am doing (and how it differs from what Dennis did, and > for that matter from just trying to regenerate the original troff > input) and describes the tools and so on. My current hope is to > get those done in odd moments this week; once I have a decent > approximation of each, I want to put copies of all the documents > and all the tools and a few sample pages from 5e up on the web, so > people have something to look at and I can get comments from a wider > group. (Obviously I'll drop a note to the PUPS mailing list when > things are up there.) > > While I'm writing the HTML renderer and the missing document this > week, my colleague in California has already begun an independent > proofreading pass over the stuff I've marked up, which is a damn > good thing because I can't see the errors any more (and she has > already spotted some). > > The other tools I know are missing are > - some sort of structure to allow the old pre-typesetter manuals > to be rendered in a good approximation of their original form. > At the moment I expect this will just be a troff macro package > with the syntax of V7 -man, so I can just use the existing renderer, > though I can see some font issues looming that may cause force the > renderer to change (perhaps in a way general enough that there will > still be only one renderer). > - something to allow V6-era -man (or /usr/man/man0/naa, to name it > properly) macros to work too; the obvious cheap way out is something > that translates V7 -man to V6, presumably with the knowledge that what > it is translating came out of my markto7man renderer (which restricts > the language quite a bit, so the job is a lot simpler). I'm not sure > how important this is--the obvious short-term goal is to be able to > have a man command in the V5 environment, and since the macros probably > aren't in the existing distribution, it's fair game to bring in a copy > of the V7 ones--but it seems worth having in the long run if only for > fun. > > I'd originally thought to write more of the tools before doing so > much markup, but I'm glad I didn't--the markup language mutated more > than I expected as experience showed where it was wrong, and it made > life simpler to have only one renderer to update. I think it is > pretty much stable now, and in any case I am champing at the bit to > be able to display things in HTML. > > A final complication in all this: it is all but certain that I'll > be resigning from York this week, effective in about a month, to > jump back to a position at the University of Toronto (running > computers for the Canadian Institute for Theoretical Astrophysics). > This is not a surprise to anyone concerned (including the folks here > at York--the real reason for the move is that the eleven-mile commute > to York is just too long for me), but it will certainly have both > short- and long-term effects on the time I can spend on the manuals. > The long-term effects may not be what you think, though: the scanner > and OCR setup I've been using is located at CITA, so once I've settled > in there (and especially once I get the tools sorted out well enough > that it is effectively a pipeline), it should be pretty convenient > to spend the odd hour scanning in a handful of pages. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23544 for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:16 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mon Jul 13 23:44:42 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23539 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12765; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807131344.JAA12765(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Recovering old UNIX manuals In-Reply-To: <199807130347.NAA07263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 13, 98 01:47:55 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Cc: norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > All, > I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at > converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into > machine-readable format. > > Warren > > norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca writes: > > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is > > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the > > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself > > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front, > > right now there is: On a similar bent, I have been working on roffing Dennis' V1 manuals, using the earliest roff I could still find some sort of source to. It is one that was popular in the early CP/M days, that also found its way into dos and unix. How true to the original it is, I dunno, but it works. They are about 2/3 done, maybe, but my time to get them done is not as much as I would like. What should I do with them once they are done? I was thinking of just sending the source/output back to Dennis, but if it is OK to put them in in the PUPS archives, I can bounce them to Warren. Thanks to Dennis Ritchie for making them available. Bob Keys p.s. You know, with all this html thingie, whatever happened to just a real roff/nroff/troff output? It is only ascii. Why html? Just curious as to why/wherefore/etc. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25462 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:59:08 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 12 months

Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog

by norman＠cs.yorku.ca

As Steven Schultz says, Dilog used to make a lot of DEC-compatible peripheral gear. The old company has been gone for years, but there is a descendant in Switzerland; see http://www.dilog.ch for details and contacts. There are still people there who can dig up info about old Dilog Qbus interfaces; I have discovered this empirically. Perhaps they know about the Vixen box; certainly they can likely find out about the Dilog disk controller. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04264 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:34:31 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 12 months

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