TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

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by allisonp＠world.std.com

<uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 <vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ <klesiu0 at uba0 That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT pass grant! <Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for <a good cause, okay? ) I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22534 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:19:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Sun Mar 1 02:18:57 1998 Received: from holyrood.ed.ac.uk (jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk [129.215.166.17]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22526 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:19:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from jlothian@localhost) by holyrood.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20434 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:18:57 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:18:57 GMT Message-Id: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> From: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Subject: RL02 meets BSD To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last device on the bus. James Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA23015 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar 1 03:58:27 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA23010 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:13 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA14586; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD To: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK (J Lothian) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> from "J Lothian" at Feb 28, 98 04:18:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 set to? > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24673 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:46:02 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar 1 14:45:51 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24668 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:45:56 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA18387; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:52 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9803010445.AA18387(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary: Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an "internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73 (KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory. Caching on both controllers was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem. Times reported below are "wall times". All of this is done under the latest release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work being done on the system. 1. "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller. I think Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive itself makes this a minor concern. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25119 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:01:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:02:45 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25114 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:01:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08233; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:01:35 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20312; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:02:46 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:02:45 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: That RL02 blues In-Reply-To: <199802281508.AA24580(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090135.20308A-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Grant chain was intact on both machines. On the second machine the MSCP device was placed below the RLV12 and the RA disk worked fine! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 > <vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv > <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt > <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt > <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ > <klesiu0 at uba0 > > > That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if > one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT > pass grant! > > <Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for > <a good cause, okay? ) > > I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience > with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under > rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup. > > Allison > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25136 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:05:29 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:06:26 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25131 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:05:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08261; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:05:21 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20317; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:06:27 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:06:26 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090322.20308B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Both systems have "pirate" drive controllers and they have cards that do pass grant signals. If I do not remember wrongly, I think that only RQDX-1 had the "feature" of not passing the grant chain. But we placed all RQDX controller at the bottom anyhow even though they worked further up. THis is of academical interest only since I do not have holes in the grant chain and do not have an RQDX controllers AND I have devices below the drive controller in the first case that do work! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, J Lothian wrote: > I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running > BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of > buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other > devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, > UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. > Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates > as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus > to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger > silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. > > James > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25220 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:37:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:37:58 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25215 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:36:57 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08432; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:36:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20351; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:59 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:58 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> cc: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090940.20308C-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk For various reasons I can not give you the hardware config of the first system (Okay okay! I DO not want to crawl back in behind it under all the cabling and short out the house again because I did something aggravating to the power outlet in the process the last time I was in there) but the only thing I did to that one was to add the RLV12 at the bottom. The system worked before with all devices and did so afterwards too except for the RLV-controller. The second system looks like this: A B C D 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA 5 SI------SI------SI------SI GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN (this used to be a VAX-station II. Remember them and cringe!) SI is a quad ESDI controller for one or two external drives from System Industries. On the other system I have a dual SI controller for RA81 clones (Eagle). There I DO have an RQDX-3 above the RLV12 but not so here. Grant chain on the uVAX bus looks like this: 1AB-2AB-3AB-4AB-4CD-5CD-5AB(and so on). The first three slots are "granted" only in the AB pair. The RLV12 does work with grants only on the AB pair however. It works fine in my three button 9 slot 22 bit backplane (classical PDP11 vintage rack mount cab) and there the grant chain goes ONLY on the AB side stright down (BA11-N and H9273). So, no, I do not think we have a grant problem. However, does the RLV12 handle drive interrupt like the RL11 does? It could be that ULTRIX only supports the UNIBUS controller and not the Qbus.. And if so, is there a fix for this out there? And if not, how do I get hold of enough NetBSD to get a uVAX up enough to have the config above, being able to network and being able to reach both the SI controller and the RLV12? Come to think of it, most of the no nonsense hard hat industry type PDP11's I've seen (and especially the OEM-ed ones) got some sort of winchester emulating one or several RL02s. Often combined with some sort of QIC-type tape recorder with secret density. To get ANYTHING on those rigs, I think you HAVE to do it the dd way after having moved the controller to a bigger system.... Amazing how things can turn... I used to spend a lot of time in trying to get away from the 16 bit operating systems into the wonderful world of 32 bit. Now I am struggling even harder to get back in there again. =) Fun is not always bigger, faster better! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > > &c. > > This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the > machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 > set to? > > > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > > device on the bus. > > I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. > > Tim. > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA26727 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:58:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 2 04:57:46 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA26722 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:57:59 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA28081; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9803011857.AA28081(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD To: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 (PST) Cc: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090940.20308C-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 1, 98 09:37:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > The second system looks like this: > A B C D > 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU > 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM > 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 > 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA > 5 SI------SI------SI------SI > GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN > (this used to be a VAX-station II. > Remember them and cringe!) Ah, the "RC" aka "restricted configuration" aka "resin-coated" backplane. The BA23 has a special CD-bus in the first three slots. Usually it's not a problem to put a full-height card in the third slot, below the CPU and memory, but occasionally there are quad-height cards which actually pay some attention to stuff going on the CD side of the bus. Can you try rearranging your cards so that you have a dual-height card (i.e. the TKQ50 or DEQNA) in slot 3 AB, you have the 3 CD empty, and the RLV12 in slot 4? This involves you giving up either your TKQ50 or DEQNA, but I'm hoping that you can live without one or the other for a little while. Also, how are the jumpers/DIPswitches set on the RLV12? It's possible to do some weird things by sticking the RLV12 into 16-bit or 18-bit mode or by having the VEC set to something used by one of your other cards. If either of these is the case, regard the fact that the controller isn't usable as a Good Thing; having a RLV12 in 18-bit mode splatter data all around low memory isn't fun! Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26876 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:43:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Mar 2 05:25:54 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26871 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:43:45 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08986; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998 > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) Andromeda Systems, Inc. 9000 Eton Avenue Canoga Park, CA 91304 818-709-7600 (voice) 818-709-7407 (FAX) No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. WOW. That is quite surprising. > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' operations. Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb "zip like" (but not compatible) drive. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26957 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:53 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 2 06:09:46 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA26952 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:49 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA19319; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9803012009.AA19319(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an > I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they > are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) > Andromeda Systems, Inc. > 9000 Eton Avenue > Canoga Park, CA 91304 > 818-709-7600 (voice) > 818-709-7407 (FAX) > > No mention of a WWW site though. Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/ > I'd imagine their boards, while > very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive > on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind! The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies. > > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. > > WOW. That is quite surprising. > > > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, > > Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' > operations. Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the 'find'. I suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite early on. In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes close to the SCDC. 2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive. > Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware. 100 Mbytes is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit. Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27003 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:32:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

That RL02 blues.

by Beastly Wolf

Synopsis: I am trying to install an RLV12 and an RL02 drive under ULTRIX so that I can generate RL02 disks from the emulator software in the PUPS software library. The ultimate goal is to have a machine where one can copy bootable systems to people who do not have any vintage UNIX but have the hardware. However! There sure is a great fat wall to bump into here.... First try was a uVAX-II that is a part of my collection of vintage machines. This rig runs Ultrix 4.2 (with updates). Here is the system messages when booting the GENERIC kernel: Loading (a) vmunix ... sizes: text = 719932 data = 116224 bss = 398512 starting at 0xc19 ULTRIX V4.2 (Rev. 96) System#1: Mon Feb 23 13:40:07 EST 1998 real mem = 7335936 avail mem = 4779008 using 179 buffers containing 733184 bytes of memory. MicroVAX-II with an fpu Q22 bus uda0 at uba0 uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt ^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ klesiu0 at uba0 uq6 at klesiu0 and so on. The system then successfully loads uq16, dz0, ra0 and tms0. This is what I did so far: 1) I made a system configuration file containing only the devices I got plus hl0 (that is the RL02 driver). Same effect as above. 2) To rule out that this was something in hardware I built an entire new machine from scratch using spare parts. Not ONE thing was used from the original system. I also installed ULTRIX 4.0 to be sure. Guess what... When booting the GENERIC kernel, the same thing occured. During all test: The RL02-drive(s) were spun up with a scratch disk in them. On both systems they were set as drive 0 and had terminators. *despair* When trying to reach the disk by make-ing a file system on it, the system snorts at me telling me to go and fly a kite. Watch this: # newfs /dev/rrl0a rl02 newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open to read partition table: No such device or address newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open: No such device or address However, the device files are in place. System just can not find the board. =/ Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for a good cause, okay? ) /Lars Persson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22081 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:08:57 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources

by rmsmith＠csc.com

Warren, and the rest of us! Thanks! Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would with the license discussion! I will take what I can get to be legal! Thanks for all the work on this!! bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12525 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:57:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Feb 27 01:57:39 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12520 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:57:49 +1100 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07382; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:40 GMT Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id PAA13264; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT Message-Id: <199802261557.PAA13264(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <199802242217.JAA22990(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of stuff from System V?). I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs 4.2 (not a vax...). I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way. Does anyone know what the real story is? --tim -- Tim Bradshaw, System Manager, Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute, University of Edinburgh Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13228 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Feb 27 06:23:30 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13222 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:50 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA26835 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802262023.HAA26835(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Bradshaw: > I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read > this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of > the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free > already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're > derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of > stuff from System V?). No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the 4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax. Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs, and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get out licenses?! P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license? I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17819 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:24:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 28 05:07:40 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17814 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:24:21 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25828; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199802271907.LAA25828(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: grog(a)lemis.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Howdy - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 > (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150? I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work at all. The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes). I can make TK25 tapes. I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)). > > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. > > Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's > a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. You've me to thank for that ;-) > That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM > wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and applied. > One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses > RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to Of course! There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that need help with long filenames or deep directories. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18053 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:38:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sat Feb 28 06:37:13 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (ehp-1.mail.demon.net [193.195.0.154]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA18048 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:38:48 +1100 (EST) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa0125289; 27 Feb 98 20:38 GMT Message-ID: <mBJJxWA5Py90EwEW(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xwlBrCeVCW> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > >Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > >I'd like to see: > > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73. This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage is reimbursed. Robin PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future. Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20210 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:35:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Feb 28 11:35:28 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20205 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:35:40 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04807; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:29 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA15673; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:29 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980228120528.31861(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <199802271907.LAA25828(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802271907.LAA25828(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:07:40AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Howdy - > >> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> >>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm >>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. >> >> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's >> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. > > You've me to thank for that ;-) Indeed. Thanks. >> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM >> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > applied. Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff to be up to date? Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20480 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Feb 28 14:17:37 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20475 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:42 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA20644; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:38 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9802280417.AA20644(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861(a)freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > > applied. > > Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred > CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff > to be up to date? You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20523 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:39:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Feb 28 14:39:26 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20518 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:39:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05019; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA16706; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980228150926.00518(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <19980228120528.31861(a)freebie.lemis.com> <9802280417.AA20644(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <9802280417.AA20644(a)alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:17:37PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. >>> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either >>> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD >>> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and >>> applied. >> >> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred >> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff >> to be up to date? > > You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that > he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. > > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved, it might be easier to burn WORMs. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20542 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:44:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 28 14:43:41 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20537 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:44:06 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00780; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Tim - > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;) > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? > It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the ISO9660 filesystem. Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading in popularity. > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20703 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:07:33 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Feb 28 16:07:21 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA20698 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:07:28 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA30497; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:22 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9802280607.AA30497(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just under a megabyte per second. In other words: damn fast. (Fast 7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second). Booting from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54. I posted some benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago. > I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive > for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable > that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the > rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. That aren't all that rare. You just have to go someplace other than Fry's, that's all :-). > > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. > > Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up > with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to > the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not > with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 > appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect > the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). > The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs > at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors > do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size- block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized "virtual" blocks. (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you automagically.) > > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will > > Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the > ISO9660 filesystem. That's OK. The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like 4 512-byte blocks. And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem; if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down. I've built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way. > > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? > > It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via > the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes > needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's > memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but > argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of > swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:). > but it's not > clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-). I find the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart! Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)

27 years, 2 months

Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion <is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest I find this distressing as putting up unix an my 11/73 is dependent on availability of all the correct parts being available(drivers et al). While I believe thre are versions that can be put on the machine I do not know enough to speculate how or what device requirements there would be. What comes to mind, can it be configured to exploit the hardware? Or maybe the question should be is there a copy complete enough that has all of the installion templates? <to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can <distribute the image with every license. That would make sense, readable under dos, linux? <If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provide <we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are <going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwi Definately should be written notification for manageability at their end. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA08330 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:57:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 07:58:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08325 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:57:09 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25252 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802252158.IAA25252(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: System III (fwd) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain ----- >From afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> X-Sender: afrb2(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> To: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: System III Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980225140211.13155I-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk> I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!). Hope you track down a copy.... I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5 versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it. There may have even been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here. The CL are hopelessly disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain proprietary software. However I now have access to a half inch drive on a sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also). If anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them. Alan Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08405 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:10:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Thu Feb 26 00:07:03 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:10:43 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25371 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802252212.JAA25371(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F(a)pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Paul McJones: > Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been > published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated > cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to > me. Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th > edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with > SCO's latest? No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers as designated CPUs. They probably did this to: + minimise the work they had to do, and + prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant: e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example). That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!! [Maybe I'm just being paranoid here]. Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU restriction in the new license. I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen. Mind you, don't hold him to that! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08480 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:35:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 08:37:10 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08475 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:35:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25560 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802252237.JAA25560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Dion in SCO says: > What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd > be prepared to do this? > Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and > free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already > have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. > > E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a > filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS > society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out > how to service the new guy. Would that work? So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08656 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Feb 26 09:24:34 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08651 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11743; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA01636; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980226095434.51853(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <199802252237.JAA25560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802252237.JAA25560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:37:10AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > Dion in SCO says: > >> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd >> be prepared to do this? > >> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and >> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already >> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. >> >> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a >> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS >> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out >> how to service the new guy. Would that work? > > So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO > license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Don't say I didn't tell you. I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08684 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 09:35:25 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08679 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25775 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Don't say I didn't tell you. Oh, I was expecting this. > I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. > Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a > period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the > CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. > I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, > and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of > tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write > (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. I'd like to see: + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd need the volunteers to have PGP too. If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. We're going to have to work on this in the next few months. Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09286 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Feb 26 10:00:14 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09236 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:23 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11810; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:15 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA01823; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980226103014.06033(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <19980226095434.51853(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=wLpm8qysLVxtbajz X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:35:25AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > > Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > > I'd like to see: > >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > > in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Europe and UK separately, eh? > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to be limited to DOS-style naming. > As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably > via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd > need the volunteers to have PGP too. Not a problem. > If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. > You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. Seems reasonable. Greg -- Greg Lehey LEMIS grog(a)lemis.com PO Box 460 Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAzTb3SMAAAEEAMS8rCMuqbX0llo8lPuE+m1/bHTNN4q3o2OFi1t9WXlYd063 XslucmHTYRk+f0OznRpcAuyr1pvYqfnl0Gi5uys/CopKiwaouXZYjSW6PzVnTQza QJKuQwlpSUJhrcj9qXn5CW6FCLRXRcZdSezTZmDPV2jKXadD30ciy96pXaeVAAUR tA5ncm9nQGxlbWlzLmNvbYkAlQMFEDTb3SRHIsveqV2nlQEBnbQD+wf6JL7GgPbM Ql+TK9ZpYUBo+brvkg4GdgWVHbiHEue8dxm0vgEB+K4GpCJEYAx+x6L7ZM4iF4Nv axzS1UrVru9IYforM51jODk4mxZAySTspIbEzmBTY5/7N2i3b4kkiqeCdVKTy2c2 fwkb1+F6EZXY8xaxIFtu3NGRxR0Pd2Am =M7yb -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBNPSwjkciy96pXaeVAQEgtgP/Qnhw4BNOveBwTgF/kOjc0GO/kkXaMMy1 vgsjWjJDlSsoN7wsI/7Nk2pLlrSfLQ7IM2lrMHOJ8CP1CP/UevcaRGeLIXFk7FNA sF/53EXOk+unWEnqMdxK62ihWToXUpJDC3bG7XtkxndeqnJOCDOazkx2tzi9HZO/ 9UkX6U4MXNo= =szjT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz-- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09900 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:37:42 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

Re: Project generate RL02.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane only! RLV12 nominal CSR is 17774400, Vector 160 ^^ DEQNA nominal CSR is 17774440, Vector 120 ^^ I positioned the text to show how similar they are but not the same. <snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system. <What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the <RL02 controller was the same. No they are not. <I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kerne No need to. <What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t <darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the <line? likely yes, the drive must be connected. Also recheck you haven't interrupted the bus grant sequence with the mix of quad wide and dual wide cards. <Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers <laying about! =) ). It is possible. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA03424 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:30:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Wed Feb 25 02:29:38 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA03419 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:30:20 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA03005; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9802241629.AA03005(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Project generate RL02. To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802241447.AA20016(a)world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > <I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and > > I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not > usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane > only! Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a RLV11 set to a uVax. Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes! The 18-bit-ness of the RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome like, say, the RXV21. > <What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t > <darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the > <line? > > likely yes, the drive must be connected. Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like 2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have my RL units #0 when booting. To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380: Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380) Description: 1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0 is connected to the system at boot time. Repeat-by: 1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive 0 not present. 'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as a result the rl driver will not be attached. Fix: 1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for an interrupt. This is the same thing which is done in the TS11 probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not online. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04419 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 08:17:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04414 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:15 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22990 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802242217.JAA22990(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- All, Here is the DRAFT of the license for the PDP-11 versions of UNIX. Please treat this as a IN CONFIDENCE email and do not pass it on to other people. If you have any adverse comments, pass them back to the mailing list as well as Dion Johnson. Warren - ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- DRAFT - for discussion purposes - comments to dionj(a)sco.com please, and to Warren Toomey, et al, as you see fit. Please do not distribute this widely. -Dion Dion L. Johnson II - The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. dionj(a)sco.com Czar of Free Stuff and Technical customers' advocate. 400 Encinal St. Santa Cruz, CA 95061 FAX: 408-427-5417 Voice: 408-427-7565 ============================================================================== Agreement Number: ________________ THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT A. 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Box 7745 San Francisco, CA 94120-7745 (b) Correspondence with SCO relating to this Agreement shall be sent to: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. 400 Encinal Street Santa Cruz, California 95061-1900 United States of America Attention: Law and Corporate Affairs (c) Any statement, notice, request or other communication shall be deemed to be sufficiently given to the addressee and any delivery hereunder deemed made when sent by certified mail addressed to LICENSEE at its office specified in this Agreement or to SCO at the appropriate address specified in this Section 7.7. Each party to this Agreement may change an address relating to it by written notice to the other party. 8.9 LICENSEE shall obtain all approvals from any governmental authority in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY required to effectuate this Agreement according to its terms, including any such approvals required for LICENSEE to make payments to SCO pursuant to this Agreement. LICENSEE shall bear all expenses associated with obtaining such approvals. 8.10 The construction and performance of this Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the State of California, USA. SCO-Soft. Sp.-022498 - ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNPNG8UbObQUa2Z5FAQHpegP+NVXKbrF3mci56ivf05oBGu/vdaHS8vws 7OZH/C7i1iz9XvDSPqjlI/PzMl5NSeep2B6TcMgg/qzNAel2bOJK41I9h7R3YrzC IgB0bRE5A2ZbkxkKlp2mIc7gwdTfN6eeKIsPfFaoQJn4WZsJwQu0eym33gf86LkE 5luusgBe5Uk= =otzx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05224 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:34 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:05:43 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05219 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:30 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23864 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802250305.OAA23864(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Chris Drake: > Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable... > A couple of questions, though: > > - it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more > than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset. Or > is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee? > > - this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of > the OS specified. Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee? > > - Chris Drake I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions (e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.) The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries. I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as: All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1 to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05244 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:08:53 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05239 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:25 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23877 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802250308.OAA23877(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Allison J Parent: > Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the > media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media > (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 > including machine readable media that would be something more > agreeable. > > What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for > that vversion on media? I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can distribute the image with every license. If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05398 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:35:25 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05393 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:33:56 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23908 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802250335.OAA23908(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III. Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive? Thanks, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05409 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Feb 25 13:34:11 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05404 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10601; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:12 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA27075; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:12 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980225140411.14345(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources References: <199802250259.AA24622(a)world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802250308.OAA23877(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:08:53PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Allison J Parent: >> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the >> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media >> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 >> including machine readable media that would be something more >> agreeable. >> >> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for >> that vversion on media? > > I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion > is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest > to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can > distribute the image with every license. How many CDs are we looking at? Maybe I can arrange something. > If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided > we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are > going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification". Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05534 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:58:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05529 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:28 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24047 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802250358.OAA24047(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 Applications To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Dear All, I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems. I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977. Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB. Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix are on the 'net?? If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD. Ta, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05636 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:19:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Feb 25 14:07:04 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05631 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:19:12 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24149 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:20:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05560 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:07:15 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10639 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA27233; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980225143704.65511(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems. Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other. I've added a new user with vipw. When I try to change the password, I get this: login: root Password: Last login: Sat Aug 9 02:25:12 on console 2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST [1] root--> passwd grog Changing password for grog. New password: Retype new password: passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged. [2] root--> If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine. But that way I can't change my password. Any ideas? Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06632 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:06:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+

by rmsmith＠csc.com

Thanks for tweaking the list! Holidays were great in the DC area (USA). Weather was NICE. Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on my cars instead of my 11s. The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble. The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a little run. Brakes are acting up. Rain prevents getting at that in the driveway. With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!! waiting for Linux!! thanks! bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14931 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998 Received: from asd ([209.1.236.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14926 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:07 +1100 (EST) Received: by shared1-mail.whowhere.com id <37014-251>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:08 -0800 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 From: "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Message-ID: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA(a)shared1-mail.whowhere.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) X-Sender-Ip: 203.34.247.61 Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA16207 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:46:34 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Feb 20 03:46:10 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16202 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:46:28 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip6.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.106]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27383; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34EC6FE2.56FC890(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:10 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Kraus <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) References: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA(a)shared1-mail.whowhere.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/ The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted. You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies. There isn't any networking support. Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA and a transceiver. ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS software, which can do DECNET. Dave Michael Kraus wrote: > > G'day All... > > In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. > > I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local > network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, > and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). > > Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in > which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the > terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). > > I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. > > Anyone who can help, please let me know. > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for David C. Jenner Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: David C. Jenner n: Jenner;David C. adr: 3153 N.E. 84th Street;;;Seattle;WA;98115-4717;USA email;internet: djenner(a)halcyon.com tel;fax: 206-527-2019 tel;home: 206-527-2018 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE-- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16813 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:37:00 +1100 (EST) >From "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16808 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:36:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10590 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:37:51 +1100 (EST) Received: from csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.20.6]) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA10240 for <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:35:48 +1100 (EST) Received: from octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au (octarine-253.cc.adfa.oz.au [131.236.253.20]) by csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24750 for <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.160]) by octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04446 for <wkt(a)octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:53 +1100 (EST) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14931 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from asd ([209.1.236.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14926 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:07 +1100 (EST) Received: by shared1-mail.whowhere.com id <37014-251>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:08 -0800 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 From: "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Message-ID: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA(a)shared1-mail.whowhere.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) X-Sender-Ip: 203.34.247.61 Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25372 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:28:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Feb 22 21:29:18 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25367 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:28:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA11916 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:28:14 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09227; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:19 +0100 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:18 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware In-Reply-To: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA(a)shared1-mail.whowhere.com> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi gang! Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk to make it bootable? IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps be used to ship things in... Comments anyone? /Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26798 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Feb 23 07:44:14 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26793 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:08 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA15297; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:15 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802222144.IAA15297(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Putting that UNIX on hardware To: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Beastly Wolf: > Hi gang! > > Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? > Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. > Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and > then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. > Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. > Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to > put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk > to make it bootable? I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this. The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going. > IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? > If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt > IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen > for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. > Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!! Thanks, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01182 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:42 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Feb 24 10:36:58 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01177 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17631 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802240036.LAA17631(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which could be affected by the license clauses. I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO. I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've agreed with the draft license terms. More news as soon as I have it.... Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02247 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Tue Feb 24 18:05:36 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02242 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:34 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12007 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:04:28 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA12154; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:37 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:36 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Project generate RL02. Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980224085257.12101D-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi again gang! It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware with dd, as my theory went. So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig. I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat. Here goes: My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50, DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think). I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system. What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the RL02 controller was the same. Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though. Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt. I do not have a drive connected though. I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector. No go. Same message. I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have! So here is the problem: What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the line? Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers laying about! =) ). If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL kinda rack and is hard to service. /Lars Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA03167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:47:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 2 months

Virtual Tape Server - RL02s work

by Warren Toomey

For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now. The next version is at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA10966 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:07:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Bob Lash <bob(a)wbs.net> Wed Feb 18 17:06:47 1998 Received: from webchat2.wbs.net (ws3.wbs.net [207.88.172.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10961 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:06:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from bob@localhost) by webchat2.wbs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA06845; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lash <bob(a)wbs.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000(a)webchat2.wbs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. These worked exactly as billed. If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. Best wishes, Bob Lash bob(a)wbs.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST From: Bob Armstrong <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> To: bob(a)wbs.net Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget to tell you tomorrow: 1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity. 2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot. The unix boot program will print an "@" almost immediately. [This is really annoying, because the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think that the machine has crashed!] 3) Type "unix" and RETURN. This is the kernel name, and when you are able to build your own kernels you can type a different name. If you make any typos you'll have to reboot. The boot pretends that you can try again if you make a mistake, but don't believe it! 3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z (not ^D!) to start time sharing. 4) It will prompt for the date and time. Note that the date doesn't give you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework, did you :-) 5) You'll get a "login:" prompt. The password to root is "pdp". 6) You're on your own. Have fun! Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you try your first boot with the pack write locked. Unix will panic right after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the hardware works. Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first. This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if you shut down without syncing. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13383 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:58:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Bob Armstrong <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> Tue Feb 10 15:06:31 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13378 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:58:15 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09626 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802182259.JAA09626(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000(a)webchat2.wbs.net> from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Bob Lash: > I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob > Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 > pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) > > Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. > These worked exactly as billed. > > If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. > Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The > part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. > > Bob Lash > bob(a)wbs.net Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-) On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license. All this for a 20-year old piece of software! This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas, and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from George Colouris in England and read its contents? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14215 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:16:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes < <The 16540 has only one byte buffer. Oops mixed it op with a compatable hybrid... < <> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. < <The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes. Some fo the super integration chips (FDC, IDE, 2SIO and parallel) have extended that to 32. <Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys. This is RT-11 and RSTS and I don't have a UNIX on the q-buss -11s. I could recompile RT but, Qbus, interrupt priority is based on position relative to the cpu, In mine its memory, serial io and then all the rest in order of decreasing speed. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25982 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Feb 1 17:47:25 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25977 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:04 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA12606 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802010747.SAA12606(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Virtual PDP Tape - update To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks. RP03 disks. RK05 disks. RL01 and RL02 disks. Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources. I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is installed, you will be able to do: $ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf - and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up. I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-) Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Feb 2 13:44:29 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28780 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23220 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802020344.OAA23220(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s. This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on. I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be vanilla V7 and should work with no problems. A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD (again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install code would need to change. Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the RL02 problems?!! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01650 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Feb 3 08:04:20 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01645 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:50 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA24121 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199802022204.JAA24121(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Swedish PUPS To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Did I send this PDP message on to the list? Warren ----- Forwarded message from beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- From: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788@sylvester.> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PUPS Membership Hi PDP lovers! My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden. I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones. Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS. IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw. I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25 has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help? Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS, 11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs) and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations). In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02 floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it. I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long time. =) Regards! /Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center ----- End of forwarded message from beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02592 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:49:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> <The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with <something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but <useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they <were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device The tu58 also knows MRSP but the host still has to buffer a 128(plus wrapper) packet in one blast. It's assumption is that the host has plenty of ram and a suitable buffer should be no problem at most data rates. Call it a design error. It's also something that has to be dealt with in all cases of serial communication. As boot device, I used to take the average 750 console tape and rearrange it and on average cut the load time by 60% or more. Seeks are slow being 30 seconds end to end. The fewer the better also the ordder of files can make a difference. I use it to boot a PDT11/130 and also an 11/23 in a BA11va (four slot box). and it's accept able IF the files are in the best order for access. <I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work <reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first <time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to <disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt. I have some data and the problem was on the 11/44 console side. It could not keep up with the 9600 baud data from the tu58. <The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to <something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) <had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get <the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips <machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte. <Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand <interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 <baud serial line I'd think. they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it. <Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips <(an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a <286. No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k. the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween. In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus. My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02) are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not ack'd. You don't need a lot of mips to recieve data at 9600 and put it in a buffer for later use. Coding a routine to do it reliably is sometimes not as easy as it may look. Also coding in HLL (even C) can add overhead not anticipated and slows execution. the problem in most PDP-11s is the serial buffer in ram is rarely 140 bytes (data plus wrapper) so that 1mS you have then includes the whole file system and that takes a lot of mips to keep up with. <The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems <all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk <interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough <that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun. That would do it. Try using a DH or DZ interface as they have a silo and can sustain higher rates. <If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high <serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a <kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the <data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM. <that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is <lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over <9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to <make its way to disk. The serial TU58 however does not have hardware flow control though it can be hacked on to the board. (hint inhibit the TX empty interrupt to the 8085.) FYI the PDT11/130 got around this by using a parallel interface tu58. The parallel interfaced tu58 cannot send a byte until the receiving system take the last one. At one time to prove a point I did do a hacked up tu58 with hardware flow control and a matching DLV card and ran it at 38.4, the performance was impressive even under heavy RSX11 loading. DEC did not do this as it would be a major redesign/requal of the product. They did know the problem well however. The key is look at interupt latency. PDP-11s are OK but when you add something like burst mode DMA where the CPU can be off the buss effectively for significant periods of time there can be performance hits. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25353 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:46:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sun Feb 1 12:45:58 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25348 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:46:02 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29575; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:59 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA08065; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980201131558.50751(a)lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution References: <199801311818.AA26294(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199801311818.AA26294(a)world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: >> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> > >> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to >> something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) >> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get >> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips >> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. > > I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the > driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte. Sure. UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high async interrupt performance. >> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand >> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 >> baud serial line I'd think. > > they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes The 16540 has only one byte buffer. > and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes. > That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there > is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it. That's more to the point. Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20. I regularly get 50-60k interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer, and I think the printer is the limiting factor there. > >> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips >> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a >> 286. > > No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k. > the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween. > In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus. > > My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02) > are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is > real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not > ack'd. Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys. > Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right > my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM. Ah. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25590 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:21:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block'' <which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from resto <My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill th <10,240 request, but still problems. Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction (read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all that fast and OS overhead can make that longer. Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between. If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at 38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing processing to write (via file system) to disk and recieving data at the same time. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21620 for pups-liszt; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Jan 31 08:06:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21615 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07375; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:43 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199801302206.JAA07375(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:42 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199801301446.AA19117(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jan 30, 98 09:46:31 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Allison J Parent: > > <I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block'' > <which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from resto > <My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill th > <10,240 request, but still problems. > > Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. I found the problem - my dump image was corrupt :-). I now have a clean v7 dump of /, and there are no complaints from restor. I've had a few people volunteer to try out the code. I'll clean it up, finish off the docs, and put it up for ftp in a few days, with an email on the PUPS mailing list on how to retrieve it. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22547 for pups-liszt; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:52:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jan 31 15:36:05 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22542 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:52:10 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA23209 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199801310536.VAA23209(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - I thought I'd chime in with my experience with "high" speed serial transfers... > From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > > Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was > a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds > above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device to be used while the system was up and doing other stuff the TU58 was quite poor. I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt. > (read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow > the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send > a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to > overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. > may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all > that fast and OS overhead can make that longer. Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 baud serial line I'd think. > Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of > the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a 286. The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun. > rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between. > If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at > 38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over 9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to make its way to disk. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA24275 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 05:19:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 3 months

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