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Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09524 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:41:02 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 09:04:16 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09519 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:40:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA02711; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals References: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>; from Tim Bradshaw on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:01:21PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > versions of these at: > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first page. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09691 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:46 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 10:08:49 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09686 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:40 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02921; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507093849.H396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:49 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: m(a)mbsks.franken.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) References: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 06:43:56AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 6:43:56 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Matthias, > Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working > with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email. Hey, I thought you were in freezing Tasmania :-) > Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator > > Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code > for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu > directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o. > > With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here: > > total 16 > -rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help > -rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf > -rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom > -rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot > > All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf > configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made > a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is: > > > libdir = . > ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000 > end > ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000 > 0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12 > end > ctrl kl > 017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002 > 017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003 > end > ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot > end > ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4 > end > ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5 > end > > Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root. > The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does. > > Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory, > do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require > any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few > times. You will see: In fact, you can use any port from 10000 to 10003. They map to /dev/console and /dev/ttyl1 through /dev/ttyl3 (though for some reason /etc/ttys doesn't contain entries for the latter two). >> telnet localhost 10002 > Trying 127.0.0.1... > Connected to localhost. > Escape character is '^]'. > ----- > <---- Hit Return once or twice here > : xp(0,0,0)unix > Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 > > 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 > root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON > > attaching lo0 > > phys mem = 2097152 > avail mem = 1668352 > user mem = 307200 > > January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system > > lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached > rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached > tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached > xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached > cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached > cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. > cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. > cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. > erase, kill ^U, intr ^C > # > > That's it!! Well, no, at this point you're in single-user mode. To continue, enter ^D: # Fast boot ... skipping disk checks checking quotas: done. Assuming NETWORKING system ... add host 192.109.197.211: gateway 127.1 add net default: gateway freebie.lemis.com starting system logger preserving editor files clearing /tmp standard daemons: update cron accounting. starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer. starting local daemons:. Wed May 6 10:45:41 CST 1998 May 6 10:45:42 pdp11 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1 2.11 BSD UNIX (pdp11.lemis.com) (console) login: I've forgotten what the standard password on root is; I fear it has *not* been removed. It could be 'begemot' or 'begemot1'. To change it, you will need to rebuild passwd, which will not work otherwise. Do that in /usr/src/bin/passwd. If you have trouble, I can send you a passwd binary. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09714 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:29 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 10:16:40 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09709 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02935; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:41 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507094640.I396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Matthias Bruestle <m(a)mbsks.franken.de>, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) References: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <m0yXC0k-000HqiC(a)mbsks.franken.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC(a)mbsks.franken.de>; from Matthias Bruestle on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:45:58PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 23:45:58 +0200, Matthias Bruestle wrote: > Mahlzeit Mahlzeit (*r�lps*) > The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll > look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD > mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD? Yes, I think so. The access to the machine goes via the tunnel driver, and that would need to be completed for Linux. The authors don't use Linux, so they haven't done the work. They don't use BSD/OS much any more, so if you are going to install one, FreeBSD is the obvious choice, especially considering the price differential. Of course, any old UNIX user should be using BSD anyway, especially if you want to emulate older BSDs :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:35 +1000 (EST) >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Thu May 7 10:45:41 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09773 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-02.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.66]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id UAA04653 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. As you know, my first approach was to simple-mindedly examine every word of a given program's disk image to come up with an estimate of the number of floating point operations used by the program. I would like to thank those who pointed out the shortcoming of this approach and offered valuable advice on how to achieve my aim of accurate counts. Based on these comments, I decided to create a full fledged disassembler for the PDP-11. I have tested my program and believe it produces an exact count of all floating point operations. In case you're interested in how my initial estimates compare with the new, precise counts, I list those data below as well. New Approach. uv7 bin directory Programs using 10 or more floating point ops. graph 674 awk 657 spline 389 sa 300 prof 260 iostat 243 t450 222 t300 222 t300s 212 vplot 187 tek 185 adb 128 units 118 random 116 xsend 106 xget 106 tsort 106 tar 106 refer 106 quot 106 nroff 88 factor 88 ac 88 primes 78 poke6 62 lex 51 roff 32 as 18 Old Approach. uv7 bin directory Programs using 100 or more floating point ops. awk 2540 refer 1644 xsend 1326 tbl 1315 graph 1300 xget 1288 adb 1152 eqn 918 enroll 915 neqn 874 nroff 841 make 822 spline 812 yacc 789 sa 714 tar 706 lex 628 tek 618 prof 608 t300s 604 dc 601 vplot 582 iostat 579 t300 576 t450 574 em 530 bc 509 ratfor 474 quot 452 tsort 407 sh 381 expr 380 units 379 ac 365 sort 358 ps 327 restor 323 rmail 321 ed 321 mail 321 ptx 320 egrep 313 ls 310 ps.old 306 m4 304 random 298 su 296 tp 285 ops 282 cu 282 diff 277 pr 275 poke6 275 sed 267 find 267 dump 261 deroff 255 icheck 251 ls.11 249 ld 246 login 240 cptree 230 passwd 227 login.old 218 cc 210 prep 205 at 203 dumpdir 197 join 196 wc 193 tc 192 nm 191 pstat 190 file 187 pr.old 186 crypt 182 date 181 grep 180 ranlib 174 fgrep 172 ncheck 159 checkeq 157 du 155 who 152 as 152 od 151 look 149 roff 149 ar 146 vpr 144 dd 141 tk 141 time 139 rm 138 cb 134 mv 134 comm 133 newgrp 133 dcheck 132 factor 132 rmdir 125 write 125 primes 124 cmp 121 dfOLD 120 df 120 size 117 v6sh 116 vcopy 113 nice 113 col 110 ln 106 sum 105 clri 104 cat 103 tail 103 sleep 101 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09917 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:32 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 11:37:24 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09912 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA21487; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10926 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:33:08 +1000 (EST) >From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Thu May 7 18:55:29 1998 Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10921 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:32:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id 0yXMSf-0002FS-00; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> X-Sender: afrb2(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point > > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. > > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as > > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. > > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. > According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful, Alan Bain Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10996 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:00:04 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 19:23:06 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10988 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:59:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA14397; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:07 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507185306.I12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:06 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk>; from Alan Bain on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:55:29AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:55:29 +0100, Alan Bain wrote: > On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: >>> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point >>> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. >>> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as >>> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. >> >> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. >> > According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on > a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling > say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you > don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be > on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful, The Seventh Edition manuals are available in a number of places, including of course the PUPS archive, but dmr has also put them on the web at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/index.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11609 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:50 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu May 7 23:05:02 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11603 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02117; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 7, 98 08:34:16 am" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > > versions of these at: > > > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr > > Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to > view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first > page. > > Greg He put up postscript versions, too. I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working set of sources for clean copy. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13158 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:43 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri May 8 09:02:36 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13153 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:37 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA16737; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals References: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from Robert D. Keys on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:05:02AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: >> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: >>> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) >>> versions of these at: >>> >>> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr >> >> Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to >> view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first >> page. >> >> Greg > > He put up postscript versions, too. I don't see them at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html. Where are they? > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > set of sources for clean copy. Great idea. Keep us posted. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14100 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:44 +1000 (EST) >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri May 8 14:14:03 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14094 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id AAA28438; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-293 Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see whether my results hold up. They do. According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete disassembled code for tar, let me know. [root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 read 16128 bytes prog string is 16128 bytes 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged by the number of floating point ops contained in tar). The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating point: ~_filbuf ~_innum ~atof ~cvt ~ecvt ~fcvt ~gcvt ~isatty ~main ~mktemp The addresses of these routines, as listed in tar's symbol table--see attached file symlisttar.txt--correspond to those of the disassembled floating point ops in tar. I've learned a lot while responding to the criticisms offered by you and others on this list. Thank you. Ed --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Text from file 'TAR3.TXT' [root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 read 16128 bytes prog string is 16128 bytes 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 26676: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762 26710: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 26714: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732 26720: CFCC ;170000 26724: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040 26730: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762 26742: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101 26744: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001 26746: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27006: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27012: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732 27016: CFCC ;170000 27022: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040 27026: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762 27040: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101 27042: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001 27044: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27304: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762 27314: LDF F0,#40200 ;172427 040200 27320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 27324: LDF F0,#40640 ;172427 040640 27330: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742 27344: LDF F0,177742(R5) ;172465 177742 27350: MULF F0,F0 ;171000 27352: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742 27366: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 27372: MULF F0,177742(R5) ;171065 177742 27376: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 27422: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27426: DIVF F0,177752(R5) ;174465 177752 27434: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27440: MULF F0,177752(R5) ;171065 177752 27444: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27462: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27466: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 27500: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27512: NEGF F0 ;170700 27514: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27520: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 32720: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 32724: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 32764: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 32770: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33060: CLRF F0 ;170400 33062: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004 33066: CFCC ;170000 33100: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33104: NEGF F0 ;170700 33106: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33120: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33124: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33136: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33146: CLRF F0 ;170400 33150: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762 33154: CFCC ;170000 33160: CLRF F0 ;170400 33162: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004 33166: CFCC ;170000 33202: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 33206: DIVF F0,#41040 ;174427 041040 33212: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33224: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 33230: ADDF F0,43662 ;172067 010426 33234: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33240: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400 33252: CLRF F0 ;170400 33254: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762 33260: CFCC ;170000 33276: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 33302: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33310: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33314: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 33324: CMPF F0,#40200 ;173427 040200 33330: CFCC ;170000 33414: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33420: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33424: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33436: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33442: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33454: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33460: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 33464: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400 33666: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33672: STEXP F0,R0 ;175000 33700: LDEXP F0,R0 ;176400 33702: CFCC ;170000 33710: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007756 33716: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007750 33722: NEGF F0 ;170700 34112: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 34116: MODF F0,#40200 ;171427 040200 34122: STF F1,@14(R5) ;174175 000014 [root@oskar uv7]# --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Text from file 'symlisttar.txt' ~main~usage~dorep~endtape=003004 ~getdir~passtap=003414 ~putfile=003566 ~doxtrac=005656 ~dotable=006776 ~putempt=007126 ~longt~pmode~select~checkdi=007506 ~onintr~onquit~onhup~onterm~tomodes=010132 ~checksu=010344 ~checkw~respons=010560 ~checkup=010750 ~done~prefix~getwdir=011302 ~lookup~bsrch~cmp~readtap=012704 ~writeta=013350 ~backtap=013644 ~flushta=014044 ~copy~freopen=014146 ~fseek~rewind~fread~fwrite~system~fopen~scanf~fscanf~sscanf~_doscan=016056 ~_innum~_instr~_getccl=021242 ~fprintf=021376 ~printf~sprintf=021532 ~ungetc~_filbuf=022002 ~gcvt~_strout=024570 ~_flsbuf=025130 ~fflush~_cleanu=025702 ~fclose~_endope=026072 ~create~_findio=026516 ~atof~atoi~ctime~localti=027716 ~sunday~gmtime~asctime=031220 ~dysize~ct_numb=031560 ~malloc~free~realloc=032422 ~ecvt~fcvt~cvt~isatty~mktemp~stty~gtty~strcat~strcmp~strcpy --Message-Boundary-293-- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14844 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:45 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri May 8 20:16:15 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14839 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:38 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA18750; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980508194615.O12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 0:14:03 -0400, Ed G. wrote: Content-Description: Mail message body >> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. > > Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see > whether my results hold up. They do. > > According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here > are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as > well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete > disassembled code for tar, let me know. > > [root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' > file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 > read 16128 bytes > prog string is 16128 bytes > 0: SETD ;170011 > 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 > 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 > 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 > 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 > > I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and > because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged > by the number of floating point ops contained in tar). I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the Seventh Edition nor elsewhere. For the fun of it, I took the source of tar from the Seventh Edition (/usr/src/cmd/tar/tar.c) and compiled it on 2.11BSD. I had some minor compilation problems due to different directory structures, which I solved by #ifdefing out the following code: #if 0 for (j=0; j < DIRSIZ; j++) *cp2++ = dbuf.d_name[j]; *cp2 = '\0'; close(infile); putfile(buf, cp); infile = open(".", 0); i++; lseek(infile, (long) (sizeof(dbuf) * i), 0); #endif I think we can agree that they don't contain FP code. Here are some results: [23] root--> cc -n -s -O tar.c -S [24] root--> grep -i ldf tar.s [25] root--> grep -i mul tar.s > The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating > point: > >> _filbuf >> _innum >> atof >> cvt >> ecvt >> fcvt >> gcvt >> isatty >> main >> mktemp atof, cvt, ecvt, fcvt and gcvt are conversion routines which use floating point, so I can agree that they would contain FP code which, however, would not be used. isatty is a library routine which is simple enough to quote: /* * Returns 1 iff file is a tty */ #include <sgtty.h> isatty(f) { struct sgttyb ttyb; if (gtty(f, &ttyb) < 0) return(0); return(1); } Evidently there's no FP code there. It's fun to go looking for things like this. But never trust anything, especially not your own judgement, until you have a couple of different ways to prove it. You have the sources there; go ahead and check them out. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15293 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:26 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Fri May 8 23:28:40 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15288 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03767; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 8, 98 08:32:36 am" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > > set of sources for clean copy. > > Great idea. Keep us posted. > > Greg I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my html is not so good. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15447 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:48:43 +1000 (EST) >From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Sat May 9 00:08:38 1998 Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15435 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:47:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yXnpG-00028L-00; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> X-Sender: afrb2(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > > > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > > > set of sources for clean copy. > > > > Great idea. Keep us posted. > > > > Greg > > I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. > Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will > port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. > Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my > html is not so good. > It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff source first of course!) Alan Bain Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15594 for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:14:37 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Sat May 9 00:35:45 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15587 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:13:57 +1000 (EST) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20682; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199805081435.PAA20682(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * Robert D Keys wrote: > I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. > Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will > port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. > Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my > html is not so good. I could probably manufacture HTML from roff reasonably rapidly, assuming the originals are vaguely clean. I used to do this for a living at one piunt (:). --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16019 for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:10 +1000 (EST) >From Jason Stevens <Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com> Sat May 9 03:25:16 1998 Received: from gw.aexp.com (gw.aexp.com [205.138.230.66]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16014 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:03 +1000 (EST) Received: by gw.aexp.com; id KAA05009; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:24:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailhub1.ec.aexp.com(148.171.243.131) by gw.aexp.com via gwmail (v99) id xmajh7726; Fri, 8 May 98 10:24:10 -0700 X400-Received: by mta AmexPHXMTA in /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed; 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed; 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; 0D35C35533FFC066-AmexPHXMTA] Content-Identifier: 0D35C35533FFC066 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <0D35C35533FFC066*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/o=trs/ou=HUB1/ou=AMEX/s=Stevens/g=Jason/@MHS> Date: 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 From: Jason Stevens <Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Return requested) Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Could it be possible that all the floating point calls are part of the crt.0 initialization libs?! They may be in there as part of a initialization routeen to detect a fp, and use it if it's there, although I really doubt tar would really need an fp call at all.. It sounds like some kind of generic startup thing.. Unfortunatly I don't have any source to anything at the moment... If anyone wants to dive check the startup libs... Oh well until then, I'm just waiting for SCO to send me my no.. :) TTYL! Jason Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19024 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:52:46 +1000 (EST)

27 years, 3 months

Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit According to Greg Lehey: > Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to > answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am. Thanks. :) > > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with > > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? > First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the The compiler which compiled the emulator is gcc. Log time ago I compiled someones emulator with gcc 2.5.8 and it did only work without any optimization. > nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look > at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are: Fine, I will try it this night or tomorrow. Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09143 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:53 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 7 06:43:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09138 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:48 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03625; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST) Cc: m(a)mbsks.franken.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 6, 98 04:38:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Matthias, Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email. Warren Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o. With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here: total 16 -rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help -rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf -rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom -rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is: libdir = . ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000 end ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000 0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12 end ctrl kl 017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002 017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003 end ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot end ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4 end ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5 end Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root. The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does. Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory, do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few times. You will see: % telnet localhost 10002 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. ----- <---- Hit Return once or twice here : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON attaching lo0 phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1668352 user mem = 307200 January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # That's it!! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09164 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:14 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 7 06:49:24 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09159 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:11 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03699; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805062049.GAA03699(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Bradshaw: > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > versions of these at: > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr > > --tim Thanks Tim! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09393 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:24:42 +1000 (EST)

27 years, 3 months

Installation of 2.11BSD (II)

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get at the end: ./checksys unix overlay 6 is empty and there are non-empty overlays following it. System will occupy 156960 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists). end {0052310} nbuf {0012014} buf {0033654} nproc {0012002} proc {0042454} ntext {0012004} text {0051350} nfile {0012010} file {0047370} ninode {0012006} inode {0012076} ncallout {0012012} callout {0024562} ucb_clist {0012020} nclist {0012016} ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0012074} quotdesc {0000000} namecache {0025242} _iosize {0010030} **** SYSTEM IS NOT BOOTABLE. **** *** Exit 1 then I get very often Bus Errors: # ./config SONJA ./config: 1041 Bus error - core dumped Copying standard files to ../SONJA. ./config: 1051 Bus error - core dumped ./config: 1052 Bus error - core dumped ./config: ../SONJA/ioconf.c: cannot create ./config: ../SONJA/param.c: cannot create Setting configuration options for SONJA. c./config: ../SONJA/loop.h: cannot create ^C# ^C # mkdir Bus error - core dumped # mkdir X Bus error - core dumped # I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete [1] The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the filesystem. -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06684 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:59 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed May 6 16:38:21 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06678 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02895; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) To: m(a)mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC(a)mbsks.franken.de> from Matthias Bruestle at "May 6, 98 08:24:49 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Matthias Bruestle: > I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license] > When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get > [problems] > > I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without > optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator > or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)? > > The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the > filesystem. Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here are some general purpose suggestions from me. + Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption, or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis? + Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot? + The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11 emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs. Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11 built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work. I'm off for a short break, but I'll be back Monday. Best of luck with it. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06826 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:53 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed May 6 17:07:10 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06818 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA00723; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980506163710.A329(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, Matthias Bruestle <m(a)mbsks.franken.de> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) References: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC(a)mbsks.franken.de> <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:38:21PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:38:21 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Matthias Bruestle: >> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. > > [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license] > >> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get >> [problems] >> >> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without >> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator >> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)? >> >> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the >> filesystem. > > Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed > the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here > are some general purpose suggestions from me. > >> Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption, > or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis? > >> Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot? > >> The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11 > emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and > installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs. > > Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able > to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11 > built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work. Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am. One point: > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the address space of a PDP-11. Secondly, I'd guess it's the emulator. I don't think many people have tried 2.11BSD on the Supnik emulator. I'm using the Begemot emulator (Emulators/P11-2.3 in the archive). I get: [5] root--> cd /usr/src/sys/GRANDPA/ [6] root--> ./checksys unix System will occupy 295600 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists). end {0122636} nbuf {0013562} buf {0053542} nproc {0013550} proc {0077060} ntext {0013552} text {0121416} nfile {0013556} file {0115726} ninode {0013554} inode {0013646} ncallout {0013560} callout {0044274} ucb_clist {0013566} nclist {0013564} ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0013644} quotdesc {0000000} namecache {0053150} _iosize {0000000} [7] root--> I won't pretend that the documentation of the interpreter is ideal, nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are: -rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 11477 May 6 16:18 README-emu -rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 1746 May 6 16:18 p11conf -rwxr-xr-x 1 root lemis 315 May 6 16:19 run_211 README-emu is a brief (and hurried) description of what I did to get the emulator working, p11conf is my current configuration, and run_211 is the command file I run to actually start the emulator. Note that what you get when you run the emulator is just the diagnostic console; to actually use the machine, you need to telnet to ports 10000 to 10003. Anybody interested in so doing can telnet to pdp11.lemis.com and log in as guest, password "Today only". Don't break anything, please--I haven't checked security too much. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08014 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:54 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Thu May 7 01:01:21 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08009 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04718 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA08913; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: First edition Unix manuals X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) versions of these at: http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08241 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:08 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu May 7 02:12:37 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08236 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00456; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199805061612.MAA00456(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Early unix on simulators --- partial newbie success ---yeah! In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm" To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I managed to get the Sim23b pdp11 emulator running on the v5 unix. It is hard to believe a 25K kernel....(:+}}..... so much for code bloat over the years. My goal is to try to bring it up on a KSR35 hooked up to a headless pc (386 board in a closet box) on the dos emulator, or whatever would be the minimal required to get it going. Can anyone suggest ways to reach that goal? I am still having no luck with the Ersatz 2.0 emulator on dos, because I can't seem to get the incantations right. I get to the @ prompt, but after entering unix, it just sits for a bit, the HD spins, and after a few seconds it is back at the @ prompt. There is still some magick mystical juju required (albeit I am the dummy here....(:+\\.....) I could port a stripped Linux 0.98 kernel maybe, to get it up, and try that, but I was hoping the dos emulator would run with it. Any suggestions and pointers are appreciated. Thanks, and kudos to all the PUPS crew and Dennis Ritchie for resurrecting the old v5 image. This kindof makes computing fun, for a change..... Now, where did I stash that KSR35..... Bob Keys..... Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08328 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:15:26 +1000 (EST)

27 years, 3 months

Installation of 2.11BSD

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit My hardware: Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports. MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS, MT, MU, SY, DU. It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my controller.) Kernel: To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console unter RT-11. Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM? Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES? Installation: I think there are three possible ways of installing it: 1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with rtkerm. The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work? 2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the usr-data (kermit? write simple program?). This sould also install the disklabel. 3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data (kermit? write simple program?). The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator. What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?) Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:59:52 +1000 (EST)

27 years, 3 months

Slightly offtopic...

by Jorgen Pehrson

Hi, I have a little problem installing 2.11BSD on my PDP11/83. I have a TK50 tape with the distribution and a TK50 drive from a uvaxII. The controller board is a M7546 that comes from another vax. The original tape drive in this PDP is an TK25 drive which I have disconnected. How should the TK50controller be strapped? The TK25 answered at 17772520. Should the TK50 be there as well? (I haven't got a clue howthe QBus works... I know it's some kind of cascading thing though so I guess it matters in what order the boards are placed in the machine) Thanks for any help! -- Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16303 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:00:04 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 18 09:50:25 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16294 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:59:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06940; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804172350.QAA06940(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Slightly offtopic... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Jorgen - Hello. > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> > I have a little problem installing 2.11BSD on my PDP11/83. I have a TK50 > tape with the distribution and a TK50 drive from a uvaxII. The controller > board is a M7546 that comes from another vax. The original tape drive in > this PDP is an TK25 drive which I have disconnected. How should the > TK50controller be strapped? The TK25 answered at 17772520. Should the TK50 That is the correct address for the first TS controller in the system. Despite the name ("TK25") the TK25 is a TS device and not a TMSCP device. > be there as well? (I haven't got a clue howthe QBus works... I know it's No. The TK50 should be at the first TMSCP address which is 172150. You do not have to (indeed, you can not) set the vector on the M7546 because TMSCP devices are 'programmable' - the kernel will assign a unique vector to the controller at boot time. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16404 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:38:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 18 10:38:02 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16399 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:38:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07251; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804180038.RAA07251(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: ERROR in previous mail item (TMSCP) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hello - I looked at the wrong line in the dtab file earlier. The primary TMSCP address (where the TQK50 adaptor should go) is 174500. I accidentally gave the address of the first MSCP ('ra') earlier. So if you have both a TK50 and a TK25 the boards should be set like this TK25 172520 TK50 174500 Sorry for any confusion I caused. Steven

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. W <it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one wi KXT-11 was the t-11 cpu, duart (2 dl lines), PIOs ram and prom on one dual width card. It was designed as a bus master. KXT-11+ was also T-11, quad width with peripherals on board but could work as both bus master and bus slave. KXJ-11 was the later versionusing the J-11 cpu. < Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way <ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set <do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I exp <could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes <DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in <BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have a <disks. The were intended to replace lsi-11/03 and /2 cpus for embedded operation. They with proper memory would run Rt-11 and could be used for a self development system. At one time I had one in a BA11-va (showbox) with a RXV21 and MXV11 and it was a very good 32k RT-11 system. I also reassembled a MDS-11A a Vt100 with a PDP-11 qbus inside as a desktop development system for PDP-11. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08043 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:59:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> Thu Apr 16 18:58:50 1998 Received: from spektr.ludvika.se (root(a)spektr.ludvika.se [194.18.168.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08037 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:59:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by spektr.ludvika.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA09430 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi, What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? What I have: PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing 2.11BSD. Thanks for any input! -- Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09346 for pups-liszt; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:56:26 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 17 01:47:14 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09341 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:56:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12057 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804161547.IAA12057(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greetings - > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> > > What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? > What I have: > PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. That tape device sounds like it is a TK25. It uses the DC600A (60mb) cartridges. > A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. > And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. The DEQNA is supported by 2.11BSD so it would be a good idea to add that board to the 11/83. > What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the > MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. Ok - that will work fine. Another possiibility would be to move the TK25 (QIC) drive to the uVax-II and write the tapes to DC600A tapes. Then move the TK25 back to the 11/25 and boot > Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? Alas no. The RD52 is only ~30mb (the RD53 is about 70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb). A complete 2.11 system needs about 100mb (~8mb for a root filesystem, 4mb for a swap partition and ~80mb for sources plus binaries). A ZIP cartridge will (just) hold a complete 2.11 system (with about 8mb left over). To hold a complete 2.11 system you'll need either two RD53 drives or a single RD54. A minimal system (root filesystem plus selected binaries from /usr) could be installed on a RD52 but it would definitely not be a complete system capable of recompiling itself. > What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing > 2.11BSD. 2.11 is an excellent match for the 11/83. Earlier versions (2.9 for example) will have a difficult time because MSCP support did not arrive until 2.10BSD. TMSCP support was not present until 2.10.1BSD Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10305 for pups-liszt; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Fri Apr 17 07:12:45 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10300 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yPvyp-0000Ph-00; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:14:00 +0100 Message-ID: <5kppZIANRnN1EwQW(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:12:45 +0100 To: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>, Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> writes >Hi, >What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? >What I have: >PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. > >A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. >And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. > >What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the >MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. > Yes, this will be the simplest way >Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? > no, an RD54 is probably the best to aim for if you can get your hands on one. >What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing >2.11BSD. That will do fine > > >Thanks for any input! > >-- >Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) >jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) >PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2) > Cheers Robin Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 16, 0:00, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-) If I'd been quicker off the mark with my 11/04, you would have :-) > Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11. > Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it? > But it was a board, and not a machine... That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. Wasn't it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one with a J11, too. Was that a Falcon+ ? I think there were three versions altogether. Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way; the ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set up to do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I expect it could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in a BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have any disks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06809 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:06:55 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... > Two additions to make the list officially complete: > > QBUS: 11/93 > Unibus: 11/94 And one more to make the list officially really complete: Unibus: 11/04 (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else). BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06065 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:57:26 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 07:56:14 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06060 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:56:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA12901; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes In-Reply-To: <9804152208.ZM16395(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415234941.9250J-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > > <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > > <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > > <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? > > > > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that > > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I > > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 > > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). > > Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design > features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available > called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The > same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is > one of the big features. You got to be kidding?!? <FLAME ON> The 68K is a miserable beast at the best of times. Separated address and data registers, PC is a special register, some addressing modes are not allowed in some instructions, some manipulations can only be done on data register, not address registers, immediate mode is just an assembler fake, it's actually another instruction, the semantics of some instructions differ depending on what type of arguments you use, writing PIC can be a real pain unless you have the 68K20. The list is long and sad. The 68K is what happens if you take a good design (PDP-11) and mungle up every part of the design. It's like if they never really understood why the PDP-11 was done they way it was, and copied the parts they though nifty and continued with adding their own strange ideas on top of it. <FLAME OFF> Having said all this, it's still a nice thing compared to Intel stuff, I guess. :-) (But I've only programmed the Z80...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06096 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Thu Apr 16 08:00:52 1998 Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06090 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:08 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh@localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06424 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000 From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Message-Id: <199804152200.IAA06424(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies... > Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and > makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-) The 11/20 used a switch mode power supply (H720) (I still have a functional machine!). You would have to go back to something like a PDP8/e (got one of these two!) for a huge linear power supply. It has a huge SCR for the overvoltage crowbar in order to dump all the energy in the filter capacitors Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06106 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:19 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 08:00:20 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06088 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA12933; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:22 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804152230.ZM16484(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415235648.9250K-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > > > > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 > 11/60 11/70 11/84... > > > Two additions to make the list officially complete: > > > > QBUS: 11/93 > > Unibus: 11/94 > > And one more to make the list officially really complete: > > Unibus: 11/04 > (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else). Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-) Is there anyone who can figure out any more models? > BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as > 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the > same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O > integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though. Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11. Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it? But it was a board, and not a machine... What about the VT103? Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06285 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:08:21 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? > > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is one of the big features. > Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them. All right, providing I can have the ones on this side of the Atlantic... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05994 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:39 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 <> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their app <> for electricity. :) None the above systems are tough it really depends on the disks used. The later of the three in the microPDP-11 format (ba23/123) are very resonable using MSCP and MFM drives. The QBUS-11s are modest power compared to the Ubus-11s. Also the Qbus-11s win in the small sizing as well. I have two BA11n boxen one with 11/23b and the other 11/73, RX02, RL02, and MSCP disks all in one 50" rack. <For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be <required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted <a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some <minor C compiling, associated with that. A qbus 11/73 (or 83) a meg of ram and disks would be comfortably under 500 watts. Adding an RL02 is not painful though it uses more than the CPU box total. The massbus disks or RK/RMs are high power just for the spindle motors. <> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with <> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? You could if you set up event, ACOK and DCOK. Most of the DEC supplies are actually lowvoltage switchers (744s) and the later ones are high voltage swicthers (BA11s/BA32/BA123... all qbus). <Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate <20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my <antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s? The bigger Ubus machines and some of the bigger (physically too) disks are killer though most common PDP11s are really quite moderate to small in their needs. <I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep <a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is Smae here, the CCS2200 with DISCUS 10m and two SA800s challenge the 11/23 for power needed! <What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11 <There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never di <get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for th <CP/M thingie, instead. The H11 was a LSI11/03 cpu with heath equivelents for DLs and memorys, the disks however were strange. <What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember <the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in abou <15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up. <What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles? I ahve V7 up on an 11/73 on one RL02 pack (10mb) and it's cramped with about 4mb free. Two RL02s would be pretty good. If I can get 2.11 up that will talk to the MSCP disks RD52(31mb)/53(71mb) and I'd expect plenty of space then. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA04969 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 02:39:56 1998 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA04964 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:39:56 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: allisonp(a)world.std.com cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804151550.AA21199(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <13348030224.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk [What PDP-11s run Unix...] I currently run Version 7 on a PDP-11/83 Q-bus box stored under my bed. (I have a hospital bed, the kind you can crank up and down - Mine's about 3/4 the way up) The RL02 I boot from is twice the size of the CPU! I also have an MSCP device that I load RT-11 from. BTW, there is a setting in the '83 Setup program called allow-alternate-bootblock, you can directly boot Unix by enabling this. Does that work on an 11/73 as well? I just turn on the RL, start the disk and the CPU at the same time, and the disk comes ready just at the 9-step check finishes. I say unix and off it goes. Now, I I could just get it to see my DHQ11... ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA05100 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:30 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 02:42:54 1998 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05095 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28669; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA21659; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:21:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22652; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:42:56 +0200 (CEST) To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes References: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:42:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Ed G."'s message of "Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400" Message-ID: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> writes: > What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? It's simply beautiful. The PDP-11 architecture is the pinnacle of 16-bit computing, as the 6502 (the world's first RISC chip) is the unchallenged champion of elegance in 8-bit microprocessors. The cleanliness and orthogonality of the PDP-11 is a wonder to behold. To top it off, they also knew when to _break_ orthogonality to make proper use of the addressing mode bit combinations that don't make sense for use with the program counter. A good friend of mine, for whom I have much respect, claims that the PDP-10 is even more beautiful. I can't comment on this, not knowing that architecture, but myself I've seen nothing to challenge the '11. Among more modern processors, I'm quite partial to Motorola's MC68K. I also like the Transputer -- who doesn't? As for microcontrollers, I've worked quite a bit with the Intel MCS-51 chips, and enjoyed it. For the definition of "butt ugly", see the Intel i386 and its ilk. -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05275 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:46 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 04:16:24 1998 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA05268 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:39 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:16:24 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes To: tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Message-ID: <13348047785.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk [PDP-10 inst. set is nicer than PDP-11...] Not sure about that, I haven't play with either enough to compare them. But, judging by the pictures I have, a PDP-11/70 is about 1/2 as cool looking as a KA-10! [I *HAVE* to scan these and put them online sometime...] ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05338 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 04:02:02 1998 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05332 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00359; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id UAA21718; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:21:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22982; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:02:04 +0200 (CEST) To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) References: <199804151522.IAA22441(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:02:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <86g1jfklph.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the > one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here > doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding > of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a > 11/73 (for QBUS). Do you have the documentation you need for that RA81, Steven? I've got the user's manual here, which isn't much, of course, but at least tells you how to hook up a terminal, run diagnostics, and interpret the results... -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA05651 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:49:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 05:48:00 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA05645 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:48:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA08980; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804110246.WAA07393(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415214003.8466A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities > rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact > "right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough. > > At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to > me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to > count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar > utility. What do you all think? Would probably be a better idea, yes. :-) > > You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here. > > > > 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not. > > I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate? > > As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is > relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file. > This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the > runtime image consisted of static data. But you made an assumption that addrtesses to data don't come in theflt. op-code range, since few programs have that much data. But, by assuming that they don't have "that much" data, you must also assume that whatever little dtaa there is don't start at a high address. Your program can have as little as one word of data, located at 177776, referenced a zillion times, and your algorithm will catch it as a zillion flt. ops. > > 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range > > 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode. > > My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would > apply. Oh, it most definitely does. Tell me, what is the difference between a string of two bytes, a word, and an instruction in memory? Nothing. It's just a question of how you look at it. So when you are talking about a word, how do you know that the programmer didn't write two bytes there? The reason I said "odd addres" was because the byte at the odd address is the high byte of the word you are looking at. > > 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the > > high four bits. > > This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I > don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much. That is a good point. But it's still a problem. The point is more or less always, but a lot of small errors... :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05701 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:07:06 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:06:30 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05696 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:06:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA09548; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:31 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804110245.WAA07386(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415215418.9250A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about > this. > > In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch > instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick > skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would > be a problem because: > > 1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128, > 127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at > the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the > odd byte. Correct. > 2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem > because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they > always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never > be followed by a negative number. 2 wrong. . Where did you get the idea that jump instructions have to be absolute? . What about jumps to absolute addresses in the flt. op-code range? I'm not sure about the 2BSD assembler, but the normal way of coding is to have *all* addressing relative in the DEC assemblers. That means not just jumps, but all instructions which takes arguments. Almost all have word arguments, branch being one of the few exceptions. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05804 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:36 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:33:19 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05798 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10435; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:21 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes In-Reply-To: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415223118.9250F-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor > handbook* states: > > "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through > the eight general purpose registers." > > If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and > addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely > the PC. I think this is quite cool. > > What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? The PDP-11 did it right, all others did it wrong. :-) Well, at least as long as you're talking about general register machines. (And points could be made that the M68K isn't very general about its registers...) For accumulator machines, I guess the vote goes to the PDP-10. All with a big :-) of course. This is religion... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05852 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:42:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:41:02 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05847 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:41:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10538; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> cc: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415223736.9250G-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... Two additions to make the list officially complete: QBUS: 11/93 Unibus: 11/94 The last PDP-11s by DEC. Then you have the never-11s. (See the FAQ.) > Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. > (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite > for electricity. :) They are also normally just about the same machine as the next number in line, but for OEM markets. 11/05 - 11/10 11/15 - 11/20 11/35 - 11/40 > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) :-) Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies... Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05987 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:11 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

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