"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
> the rush to NT and SCOish things.
Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing!
My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen
of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
I have two strong and radical views:
0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
that.
1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX
clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code
written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
"free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.cwru.edu
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A postscript to my note on the old manuyals (typed into the
editor but not written out before I sent the mail!):
A note on distributing this stuff: I asked Dennis about it before
I started my project, and he thought there should be no real
problem making the text generally available, but that it would
be appropriate for the official repository to be at Bell Labs
(now a once-again-visible subsidiary of Lucent Technologies).
That seems pretty sensible to me. I doubt there's a problem
putting them in the PUPS archive, but it would be politic to
check with Dennis first.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 29 13:55:36 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807290355.NAA05056(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS: status report
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST)
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Hi all,
Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society.
Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run
of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so
we can stay informed of the progress.
A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation
society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11
UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project.
If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing
to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying:
subscribe bups
BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
up with a better name :-)
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 01:03:47 1998
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291503.LAA03577(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
In-Reply-To: <199807290355.NAA05056(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 29, 98 01:55:36 pm"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> Hi all,
> Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society.
> Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run
> of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so
> we can stay informed of the progress.
This will be great when it happens. Kudos to Kirk.....and all the unsung
heroes along the path to Nirvana.
> A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation
> society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11
> UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project.
> If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing
> to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying:
>
> subscribe bups
>
> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
> up with a better name :-)
PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine!
I will jump in the hotseat and own up to the heat. My idea was very simple.
Mainly, I was thinking that there are beginning to surface from the bilges
of surplus, a fair number of aging old-time unix toys. Not all of them
are PDP-11ish flavor. For instance, there are sometimes found some of the
ancient Radio Shack Model 16 things with an odd flavor of Xenix on them.
There are maybe some old vaxen going wanting. There are odd bilgewater
sloshers like my old IBM RT that once did ply the waters of the great BSD
(of the 4.3 style flavor). Also, there are older x86 toys that use to
run the very lowendian V7ish, Xenixish, whateverish flavors. From the
purely hobby and historical perspective, I find it rather wasteful to
let such things just vaporize. It seems we have the PDP11 world, then
there is a big black hole until the modern SCOish and Freebieish things.
It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
the rush to NT and SCOish things. Thus, there is a need to maybe fill
that hole with something like the PUPS, but for 32bitish toys, and all
the non-PDP-11 toys.
One thing that PUPS has going, is a good working basis with all the
unixy world, the big players, the historical saints, etc. So, it was
logical to perceive that such a working framework might be expanded
slightly to include not just 32V, but all the odd successors, down to
where SCO claims rightly its territory on the SysV part of the tree.
IF that framework is a BUPS offshoot, so-be-it. But, I still think that
both PUPS and the new BUPS share much common cammaraderie and playground.
Alas, I am not yet of sufficient rank to be called but a lowly journeyman,
in the unixy world. I have run it in earnest for some 10 years, played
some with it on a PDP-11, so long ago, that it is mostly forgotten, and
still keep a set of 8 inch Xenix floppers around, just in case that mystical
Model 16B drops by, again. Thus, there is not a lot I can do. But, I do toss
out the idea, would like to see where it goes. Mebbie some heavyweight
gurus would like to run with it some.....
Let us roll it around a bit, and see where the currents takes us.
The 32BitBiggieUPS should not be forgotten. I think it can only be good
for all to make it play.....
Sincerely
R.D. Keys
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
> Cheers all,
> Warren
Cheers all hands aboard PUPS, BUPS, .... burp!, .... whatever.....
RDK
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I hadn't expected Warren to forward my note directly to the list,
so perhaps I'd better fill in some of the missing content.
What I'm trying to do with the old manuals is a mix of different
sorts of historic preservation: it's interesting to be able to
produce something reasonably close to the original in appearance,
including style differences, but I am also interested just in
making the content accessible. That means being able to render
the manual pages into troff -man on modern UNIX systems, or into
nroff /man/man0/naa in the V5 root image, and roff and whatnot;
but also into HTML because that's the right way to make text
available on the web (Postscript is not text), and certainly into
other forms I haven't thought of yet.
To describe it all in utterly pragmatic terms, I want to be able
to put all the old manuals up on the web somewhere in readable
text form (not just page images or Postscript); and to produce
manual data of authentic content and reasonably authentic style
for use with the V5 binary distribution; and to be able to to
print clear reference copies for myself, so I can pack my old
photocopies away in a safe place; and to amuse myself by running
style and diction on the different editions; and I want to be
able to do that even if I don't have a copy of roff or the
appropriate age-authentic macro package.
So the idea is to mark up the text in a sufficiently high-level
form that it can be rendered into any of the forms above (including
the ones I haven't thought of) without undo work. I thought briefly
about using the (V7-era) -man macros as the high-level language,
and in fact much of the simple language I ended up inventing are
obviously drawn from -man (e.g. there are constructs that are
exactly .TH, .SH, and .SS spelled differently); but I wanted to
avoid the temptation just to toss in more and more troff-specific
syntax and semantics whenever some hard-to-represent construct
popped up. (There are too many low-level constructs in the resulting
language as it is.) I also thought about using some existing
document metalanguage like XML or YODL, but those I looked at
were far more ornate than seemed appropriate, and far too free-form;
I don't mind carrying a few medium-sized awk programs around to
render the text, but I object to having to port a language-processing
subsystem larger than the V5 kernel just so I can render V5's manual
pages. (Never mind how large awk and troff are these days.)
There's a name I should also name here: my collaborator in California
to whom the earlier message alludes is Jennine Townsend, who has
photocopies of my photocopies from a sort of earlier collaboration.
More on this in a few days; as I said to Warren, I hope to get
a coherent sample of all this work up on the web shortly so people
can see what I'm doing in more detail and comment, but I am in
the midst of deciding whether to change jobs (it is a coincidence
that the likely job change would put me nearer the OCR setup I've
been using, but it is convenient), and in getting back into the
swing of things at my present job after being out for two weeks
to recover from having corrective maintenance on my sinuses, so
it may not happen till the weekend.
Norman Wilson
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Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote:
> > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog.
>
> Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they
> were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus
> controllers.
I don't know if it's their only business, but they still sell (and
hopefully make) these controllers. One of their guys was trying to sell me
one just a few months ago. Of course, their prices are way off-base
compared to the used market.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.cwru.edu
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Jul 12 12:59:31 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807120259.MAA01524(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS
To: jim(a)sco.COM (Jim Sullivan)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:31 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980710080445.00691374(a)mammoth.sco.com> from Jim Sullivan at "Jul 10, 98 11:12:48 am"
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In article by Jim Sullivan:
> Do you know if anyone from PUPS is going to SCO Forum/Usenix in
> August in Santa Cruz?
>
> If so, we'd love to connect, if just to say Hi!
>
> Also, SCO has a quarterly Developer's newsletter, called CoreDump.
> Would anyone within PUPS be interested in submitting an article
> for the next edition? 500 words outlining the goals of PUPS
> and how to join/participate? Seems like a nice way to quietly
> promote your efforts.
>
> What do you think?
Hi Jim, I'll pass this email on to the mailing list. I'll probably take you
up on the article. Thanks!
I'm in Australia & not likely to get to Santa Cruz in any hurry. :-(
Ciao,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Jul 13 13:47:55 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807130347.NAA07263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Recovering old UNIX manuals
To: norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <WAA00038(a)lion.cs.yorku.ca> from "norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca" at "Jul 12, 98 10:20:04 pm"
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All,
I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at
converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into
machine-readable format.
Warren
norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca writes:
> The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is
> all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the
> text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself
> to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front,
> right now there is:
> - a small collection of tools to pre-process what comes out
> of the OCR into something that is easy to mark up.
> Specifically there are a couple of little filters that
> fix up the non-ASCII characters emitted by the Mac, and
> that glue hyphenated words back together; and a rather
> bigger awk script that does some of the easy grunt work
> like spotting and marking up entry titles and section headers.
> - a description of the markup language (written in itself,
> of course).
> - a program (also in awk, and surprisingly long) to render
> the markup language into approximately V7 -man. (I have
> actually done all the work so far on the MicroVAX in my
> basement, which is one of the last remaining V10 systems
> in the world, and it won't surprise me to learn that the
> renderer has accidentally picked up some V10-specific
> assumptions.)
> - a collection of advice on style and known OCR botches
> and whatnot for those who mark up and proof the manuals
> as they go through the pipe. (At the moment `those' means
> me and my collaborator in California.)
>
> The most important missing tools and writings are something to render
> into HTML, and something that explains a little more generally just
> what it is I am doing (and how it differs from what Dennis did, and
> for that matter from just trying to regenerate the original troff
> input) and describes the tools and so on. My current hope is to
> get those done in odd moments this week; once I have a decent
> approximation of each, I want to put copies of all the documents
> and all the tools and a few sample pages from 5e up on the web, so
> people have something to look at and I can get comments from a wider
> group. (Obviously I'll drop a note to the PUPS mailing list when
> things are up there.)
>
> While I'm writing the HTML renderer and the missing document this
> week, my colleague in California has already begun an independent
> proofreading pass over the stuff I've marked up, which is a damn
> good thing because I can't see the errors any more (and she has
> already spotted some).
>
> The other tools I know are missing are
> - some sort of structure to allow the old pre-typesetter manuals
> to be rendered in a good approximation of their original form.
> At the moment I expect this will just be a troff macro package
> with the syntax of V7 -man, so I can just use the existing renderer,
> though I can see some font issues looming that may cause force the
> renderer to change (perhaps in a way general enough that there will
> still be only one renderer).
> - something to allow V6-era -man (or /usr/man/man0/naa, to name it
> properly) macros to work too; the obvious cheap way out is something
> that translates V7 -man to V6, presumably with the knowledge that what
> it is translating came out of my markto7man renderer (which restricts
> the language quite a bit, so the job is a lot simpler). I'm not sure
> how important this is--the obvious short-term goal is to be able to
> have a man command in the V5 environment, and since the macros probably
> aren't in the existing distribution, it's fair game to bring in a copy
> of the V7 ones--but it seems worth having in the long run if only for
> fun.
>
> I'd originally thought to write more of the tools before doing so
> much markup, but I'm glad I didn't--the markup language mutated more
> than I expected as experience showed where it was wrong, and it made
> life simpler to have only one renderer to update. I think it is
> pretty much stable now, and in any case I am champing at the bit to
> be able to display things in HTML.
>
> A final complication in all this: it is all but certain that I'll
> be resigning from York this week, effective in about a month, to
> jump back to a position at the University of Toronto (running
> computers for the Canadian Institute for Theoretical Astrophysics).
> This is not a surprise to anyone concerned (including the folks here
> at York--the real reason for the move is that the eleven-mile commute
> to York is just too long for me), but it will certainly have both
> short- and long-term effects on the time I can spend on the manuals.
> The long-term effects may not be what you think, though: the scanner
> and OCR setup I've been using is located at CITA, so once I've settled
> in there (and especially once I get the tools sorted out well enough
> that it is effectively a pipeline), it should be pretty convenient
> to spend the odd hour scanning in a handful of pages.
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mon Jul 13 23:44:42 1998
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807131344.JAA12765(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Recovering old UNIX manuals
In-Reply-To: <199807130347.NAA07263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 13, 98 01:47:55 pm"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:42 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> All,
> I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at
> converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into
> machine-readable format.
>
> Warren
>
> norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca writes:
> > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is
> > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the
> > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself
> > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front,
> > right now there is:
On a similar bent, I have been working on roffing Dennis' V1 manuals,
using the earliest roff I could still find some sort of source to.
It is one that was popular in the early CP/M days, that also found
its way into dos and unix. How true to the original it is, I dunno,
but it works. They are about 2/3 done, maybe, but my time to get them
done is not as much as I would like.
What should I do with them once they are done? I was thinking of just
sending the source/output back to Dennis, but if it is OK to put them in
in the PUPS archives, I can bounce them to Warren.
Thanks to Dennis Ritchie for making them available.
Bob Keys
p.s. You know, with all this html thingie, whatever happened to just
a real roff/nroff/troff output? It is only ascii. Why html?
Just curious as to why/wherefore/etc.
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As Steven Schultz says, Dilog used to make a lot of DEC-compatible
peripheral gear. The old company has been gone for years, but there
is a descendant in Switzerland; see http://www.dilog.ch for details
and contacts. There are still people there who can dig up info about
old Dilog Qbus interfaces; I have discovered this empirically.
Perhaps they know about the Vixen box; certainly they can likely
find out about the Dilog disk controller.
Norman Wilson
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On May 10, 9:49, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I
believe
> > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a
few
> > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> > appearant.
>
> It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long
> divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7
> yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to
> FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the
alternative
> is about two pages of code).
> The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
> explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
> and no FP code was needed or used for that.
That bears out what I disovered by accident yesterday -- looking at a 7th
Edition UK source distribution for 11/23's and other small machines. The
READ_ME file lists the programs that have possible floating point problems,
or which might be too big using emulation. I can't remember the details,
but the list had a few surprises.
Most of the C programs have very little FP, and that is mostly due to a
small number of library routines that include FP ops, but one or two
programs are exceptional.
For example, 'factor' has a lot of FP at the beginning, a chunk in the
middle, and a large subroutine near the end, which uses FP to compute
square roots using Newton's method. factor is written in assembler, not C,
and has much more FP than other things I looked at, but several other
programs use a little.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon May 11 08:58:57 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805102258.IAA02806(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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We've had a regular intake of new subscribers to the PUPS mailing list, so
I thought I'd say Welcome to all the newcomers. There are now 90 people on
the list, and the quantity of messages is increasing daily.
The mailing list is also available in a digest form, which is distributed
twice a week. If you would rather be on the digest list, send mail to
majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the lines in the body of the mail:
unsubscribe pups
subscribe pups-digest
For more information about old UNIX, see the PUPS web pages at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS, and the FAQ in particular.
The most recent news is that both Bob Supnik and the Begemot team have
released new versions of their PDP-11 emulators. A further bug in Bob's
emulator was found by Steven Schultz, so we might see a patch to the
emulator coming out soon.
The PUPS volunteers have been hard at work burning and mailing out the
first batch of CDs containing the PUPS Archive, which is now about 520Megs
in size. We also have about 30 people with authorised access into the
on-line PUPS Archive.
Dion at SCO has promised another batch of new UNIX licenses, which I
should receive in the next few days. When I do, I'll post the details here.
That's all for now. Ciao,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon May 11 09:41:19 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805102341.JAA02987(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
To: jkatz(a)darpanet.net (J. Joseph Max Katz)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980510164539.6267A-100000(a)corinne.cpio.org> from "J. Joseph Max Katz" at "May 10, 98 04:47:31 pm"
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In article by J. Joseph Max Katz:
> Hi,
>
> What's the latest on the 4BSD re-release that Marshal Kirk McKusick
> is doing?
I've sent the list of people interested to Kirk. He's still a bit vague,
but is looking at selling a 4-CD set of all the 4BSD releases for a
price around US$100. That's a ballpark number, and will depend on how many
people want the set: the more the cheaper it will be.
I haven't heard back from him for a week or so. Should I ask him what
he is planning?
Please, none of this is for public consumption just yet.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Tue May 12 05:01:14 1998
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From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: vi bug found
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:14 -0400
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For those who want vi to work before V2.3c is released, the problem is
in the divide instruction. Look for:
dst = src / src2;
if ((dst >= 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {
and change the second line to:
if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {
(Thanks to Steve Schultz for finding this.)
The magtape bootstrap is also broken, that will be fixed in V2.3c as
well.
/Bob Supnik
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Tue May 12 10:55:24 1998
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:55:24 -0700
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Just got my license from SCO...
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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I'm number AU-31.
-------
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue May 12 12:21:12 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:12 -0400
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
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References: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
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> I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
> floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
> floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by
> my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
> Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.
I agree: tar doesn't *use* floating point.
However, from what I can determine the floating point ops in tar are
not some weird way of moving data around, nor is floating point
being used to do long arithmetic as some have suggested.
Compare the first few tar floating point ops with a dummy program
consisting of a single call to scanf:
tar, 106 floating point ops:
0: SETD ;170011
20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732
etc.
scanf, 106 floating point ops:
000000: SETD ;170011
002764: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
003014: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
004346: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004350: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004420: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004422: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004560: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004562: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004750: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
004754: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
006410: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
006414: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732
So it would appear that whatever floating point there is in tar comes
from library routines which have been linked in, but which tar does
not use.
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."
Ed
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 14 10:59:28 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More licenses from SCO
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST)
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are:
Craig Bevans, Brian Chase, Efton Collins, Peter Collinson,
David Galloway, Jay Jaeger, Dieter Muller, Daniel Seagraves,
Jason Stevens, Warren Toomey, Christopher Vance, Norman Wilson,
Thomas Zenker.
As always, if you are interested in obtaining access to the on-line PUPS
Archive, or a copy of it on some form of media (CD, tape etc.), then
please mail your request to pupsarchive(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. You will
receive an automated response with more details.
The PUPS Volunteers have sent out about 6 CDs so far, and one tape(?).
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 14 11:03:12 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805140103.LAA08094(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More licenses from SCO
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:12 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 14, 98 10:59:28 am"
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In article by Warren Toomey:
> I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are:
I forgot to say: Dion gave me license number AU-0, at the behest of
the members of the PUPS mailing list. Thanks all!!
Warren
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Mon May 18 19:54:06 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Exploited by spammers.
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Hi all!
I want to tell you all how sorry I am for spamming occuring from this site.
Due to several reasons it was possible to exploit the lintilla service
machines.
We hope we have put an end to it now (it was not an easy task since it
involved *cringe* beurocracy).
If anybody receives spams from lintilla.df.lth.se or lintilla2.df.lth.se
from now on please let me know! It should not happen but....
The lintilla services machines does not approve to spam and we try to
fight back as hard as we are able.
Internet used to be a happy place where people helped eachother and where
life was simple and good. Sometimes I long for those days now gone. =(
Today it seems that greed and abuse is the rule...
Again, sorry for the inconvenience that spamming from this site has caused!
Sincerely yours:
Lars Persson, the Lintilla services.
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>From "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Tue May 19 12:50:09 1998
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From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org>
To: "PDP Unix Preservation" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:09 -0700
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OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....
I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in advance for any experience you can share!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?
Ian King <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there.
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed May 20 05:33:00 1998
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Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Question regarding tape drive interface
In-Reply-To: <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org>
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In message <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org>, Ian King
<iking(a)killthewabbit.org> writes
>OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....
>
>I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some*
>flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to
>interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the
>Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required?
>And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in
>advance for any experience you can share!
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----------------------------------
>24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?
>Ian King <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there.
Wotcher,
You'll need a UNIBUS TS11 card, I don't know the number for this but it
should be relatively easy to get hold of. BSD2 certainly supports this.
Cheers
Robin
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri May 29 13:12:02 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805290312.NAA01694(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More UNIX Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
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I've just received licenses from SCO for Don Cruickshank and Hartmut Brandt.
Congrats, you two!
Ciao,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Jun 18 12:54:57 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199806180254.MAA04029(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More UNIX Licenses
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <35887E29.828B78E2(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Jun 17, 98 07:40:41 pm"
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In article by David C. Jenner:
> Warren,
>
> I haven't received any PUPS mailing list since this message.
> (May 28th). Are things that slow?
It's been quiet! However, I'll send in a test message to wake everybody up :-)
Ciao,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Jul 6 13:58:23 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST)
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All,
The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix:
Bruce Robertson, Erick Delios, Kelwin Wylie, Kirsten McIntyre, Matthew Crosby
That brings the numbering scheme up to AU-50, but in fact there are 52
SCO source licenses for ancient Unix.
The mailing list has been pretty quiet. Hope you're all well. The only
news I have is that Norman Wilson is still slowly scanning in the manuals
from 2nd to 5th Edition. He now has most (all?) of 5th edition scanned in.
I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD
set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be
around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down.
Software Tools
--------------
I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
I was one of the people who created the Software
Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
be even better ;-)
I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Jul 6 14:18:28 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
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On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Software Tools
> --------------
>
> I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
> I was one of the people who created the Software
> Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
> mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
> want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
>
> She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
> Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
> Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
> have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
> 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
> RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
> of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
> send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
> be even better ;-)
>
> I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
Registrant:
Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM)
11950 Anderson Valley Way
P.O. Box 939
Boonville, CA 95415
Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM
Administrative Contact:
Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc(a)NETCETERA.COM
707-895-2691
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jul 7 05:15:30 1998
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CC: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
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I think having these in the archives would be great. I used the
Software Tools extensively back in the late 70's and early 80's.
I wish I could read the tapes in, but I'm still working on a tape
drive for an 11/73. (see separate mail.)
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > Software Tools
> > --------------
> >
> > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
> > I was one of the people who created the Software
> > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
> > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
> > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
> >
> > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
> > Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
> > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
> > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
> > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
> > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
> > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
> > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
> > be even better ;-)
> >
> > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
>
> Registrant:
> Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM)
> 11950 Anderson Valley Way
> P.O. Box 939
> Boonville, CA 95415
>
> Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM
>
> Administrative Contact:
> Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc(a)NETCETERA.COM
> 707-895-2691
>
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers
> finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jul 7 05:30:18 1998
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From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape
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There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir
things up a bit.
I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which
has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I
spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to
any computer.
What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost"
bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel
machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is
cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where
the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface
on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US.
So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel
machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling
block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages
for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US.
There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple
C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD,
SCO UnixWare, etc.
If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate
your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of
these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most
likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape.
Thanks,
Dave
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au,
PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Which PC UNIX for old SCSI tape drive? (was: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape)
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On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 12:30:18 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir
> things up a bit.
>
> I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which
> has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I
> spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to
> any computer.
>
> What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost"
> bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel
> machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is
> cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where
> the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface
> on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US.
>
> So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel
> machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling
> block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages
> for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US.
> There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple
> C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD,
> SCO UnixWare, etc.
Sure, that's the obvious way to go.
> If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate
> your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of
> these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most
> likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape.
I think you'll find that they all support SCSI. I'd recommend FreeBSD
because I'm involved with it and because it's the closest to 2.11BSD.
Next, I'd recommend Linux, because you have the sources. You could
have trouble with UnixWare, in which case there wouldn't be much you
could do about it. If you do have any problems with FreeBSD, let me
know and I'll see what I can do.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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>From Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk> Tue Jul 7 16:20:53 1998
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From: Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk>
To: "'PDP Unix Preservation'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: DEC in the UK and Dilog
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:20:53 +0100
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Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market.
In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - however we are not talking laptop here :)
The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81.
I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC part numbers.
Any help or suggestions gratefully received.
Kevin Murrell
Birmingham, England.
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Subject: Newbie Alert: Which is a ``best'' pdp-11 to look for?????
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> All,
> The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix:
Neato.... I am beginning to think it might be a fun thing to do.
As the newbie aboard, what pdp-11, vax, or other dec machine would be
one to shoot for. Some are largish beasts, but for the Joe Homehobby
type that wants to run one in the basement, what would be a reasonable
combination of parts or units (or a whole machine) to look for?
Occasionally machines float up from the bilges here in central NC, USA,
and usually they wind up dumpster fodder. Rather than see that happen,
if I had a choice, what should I be looking for? For convenience, if
there was something that would fit in half a relay rack or so, that
might be nice. Also, if it could run with standard cartridge tapes
(DC300/450/600) sized things, that would be advantageous, since I have
a number of those things and nil reel to reel drives.
> I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD
> set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be
> around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down.
That would be something worthwhile to have, just for posterity.
> Software Tools
> --------------
......
> I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
I just checked our folks.... nil reel-to-reel drives anymore..... shucks.
One of the technical high schools has the only one left here in NC.
Bob Keys
p.s. Are there any USA NC folks on the list, or just me?
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jul 8 10:14:47 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199807080014.RAA05047(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog
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Hi -
> From: Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk>
Linebreaks please? 72-80 columns would be nice ;)
> Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog.
Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they
were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus
controllers.
> Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s.
> Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market.
I never heard of Dilog making entire systems. You'd typically buy
the box from DEC (but without any controllers or as few as you could
order a system from DEC with) and then stuff it with Emulex or Dilog
adaptors.
> In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen.
Sounds like an OEM somewhere was buying bare systems from DEC and
placing Dilog cards in them.
> This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card.
Indeed it is.
> Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product.
> Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 -
>however we are not talking laptop here :)
What are the dimensions? It likely is a BA-23 box. "Transportable"
would be appropriate - unless you've a *huge* (and sturdy) lap ;)
> The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached.
> The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81.
> I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC
> part numbers.
It was/is common for controller cards to call anything over ~150mb
an 'ra81' just to give the software a diskid it knew about.
On the various Dilog cards you should find (either on the spine/handles
or the card's front/back) a name. Something like "DQ696" (a disk
controller) or "DQ132" (tape controller). If you can find any numbers
at all let us know and we can probably id them for you.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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Hi, Warren.
On May 10, 18:26, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th
> > Edition system disk on an RL02...
> > How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way,
> > what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file
> > for the number of blocks and number of inodes?
>
> The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
> the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.
I should have thought of that! Steven told me the same thing last night.
> Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
> parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:
>
> rl
> tm
> root rl 0
> swap rl 0
> swplo 18000
> nswap 2480
That looks the same as mine.
> In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.
I had a look in the superblock on a couple of bootable RL02s, and found
18,000.
> Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
> set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.
I knew about using digits for the blocks instead of a proto file, but I
thought it might be safer to specify the number for the inodes. I tried to
figure it out from the results of icheck but I'm much happier with your
suggestion.
I'll let you know how I get on. The reason to do this today is two-fold:
One of my packs is getting flaky, so I want to make a good copy, with
a clean install (most of mine have lots of localised junk), and
our department has an Open Day on Wednesday, and I've been coerced
into running a display of old machines. The 11T23 is the easiest PDP
for me to move there.
Thanks for the help!
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sun May 10 21:48:23 1998
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:23 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
appearant.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon May 11 02:49:44 1998
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199805101649.JAA00593(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
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Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
> that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
> FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> appearant.
It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long
divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 yet)
because it is much much less code to convert the operands to FP, do
the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative is
about two pages of code). Different CPUs handle a fault during a
double word push to the stack differently, this was a real difficult
problem to track down and fix. If during the FP instruction
"movfi fr0,-(sp)" the stackpointer becomes invalid some PDP-11 CPUs
handle the fault differently. See 2.11BSD update #150 for the details.
The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
and no FP code was needed or used for that.
FP instructions would be clustered together where the libc.a routines
were loaded. The 'ldiv' and 'lrem' routines would have several FP
instructions close to each other but the rest of the program would
have very few. A program such as 'adb' would have a few FP instructions
in the routines that display the FP registers. Oh - there's a bug
dating back to V7 in adb. The FP registers for a traced/running
process do not display correctly (using adb on a core file works fine).
Fixed in 2.11 (see update #405) ;-)
Steven Schultz
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On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...
and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
exists?"
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sun May 10 18:17:06 1998
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From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
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On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
> whether my results hold up. They do.
Is it possible that you're mistakenly disassembling embedded data as if it
were code? And perhaps that those data items contain arrangements of byte
values which translate to FP instructions?
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun May 10 18:26:23 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805100826.SAA02363(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9805092143.ZM1440(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:43:26 pm"
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In article by Pete Turnbull:
> I'm looking for some advice...
>
> For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
> system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk
> has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has
> 256K bytes RAM.
>
> How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what
> magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
> number of blocks and number of inodes?
The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.
Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:
rl
tm
root rl 0
swap rl 0
swplo 18000
nswap 2480
In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.
The mkfs manual says:
If the prototype file cannot be opened and its name con-
sists of a string of digits, mkfs builds a file system
with a single empty directory on it. The size of the file
system is the value of proto interpreted as a decimal num-
ber. The number of i-nodes is calculated as a function of
the filsystem size. The boot program is left uninitial-
ized.
Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.
Hope this helps,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun May 10 18:27:43 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805100827.SAA02382(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9805092146.ZM1447(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:46:36 pm"
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In article by Pete Turnbull:
> On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...
>
> and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
> were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
> exists?"
You'd have to disassemble the kernel. Alternatively, consult the
size of the free block list on the disk's image.
Warren
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I'm looking for some advice...
For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk
has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has
256K bytes RAM.
How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what
magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
number of blocks and number of inodes?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>>> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
>>>> an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
>>>> set of sources for clean copy.
>>>
>>> Great idea. Keep us posted.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
>> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
>> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
>> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
>> html is not so good.
>>
> It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
> could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
> source first of course!)
Or use programs written already to do that, like RosettaMan (at least
I still call it that, the author changed its name). Here's a blurb
from its announcement.
:: PolyglotMan (nee RosettaMan) is a filter for UNIX manual pages. It
:: takes as input man pages for a variety of UNIX flavors and produces as
:: output a variety of file formats. Currently PolyglotMan accepts man
:: pages from the following flavors of UNIX: Hewlett-Packard HP-UX, AT&T
:: System V, SunOS, Sun Solaris, OSF/1, DEC Ultrix, SGI IRIX, Linux, SCO,
:: FreeBSD; and produces output for the following formats: printable
:: ASCII only (stripping page headers and footers), section and
:: subsection headers only, TkMan, [tn]roff, RTF, SGML (soon--I finally
:: found a DTD), HTML, MIME, LaTeX, LaTeX 2e, Perl 5's pod. Previously
:: <I>PolyglotMan</I> required pages to be formatted by nroff prior to
:: its processing; with version 3.0, it prefers [tn]roff source and
:: usually can produce results that are better yet.
::
:: PolyglotMan improves upon other man page filters in several ways: (1) its
:: analysis recognizes the structural pieces of man pages, enabling high
:: quality output, (2) its modular structure permits easy augmentation of
:: output formats, (3) it accepts man pages formatted with the variant
:: macros of many different flavors of UNIX, and (4) it doesn't require
:: modification of or cooperation with any other program.
:: The home location for PolyglotMan is ftp.cs.berkeley.edu:
:: /ucb/people/phelps/tcltk/rman.tar.Z (this is a softlink to the latest,
:: numbered version). If you discover a bug and you obtained PolyglotMan
:: at some other site, first grab it from this one to see if the problem
:: has been fixed.
This is only for man pages, but probably could take the papers in ms
format and give a rough translation, or hack up polyglotman some to do
ms as well..
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sun May 10 02:04:55 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Subject: Visible Front End-advice?
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I'd like to write a visible front end for Bob's emulator, but I'm not
sure how to go about doing it. What I'd like is another window that
shows the state of the emulator--PC, SP, MMR etc.--in real time.
Any suggestions/ideas?
TIA
Ed
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