- TUHS - www.tuhs.org

Re: [TUHS] SCO vs. IBM: NOVELL steps up to the plate

by zmkm zmkm

add on the lion book >From: Aharon Robbins <arnold(a)skeeve.com> >To: tuhs(a)tuhs.org >Subject: Re: [TUHS] SCO vs. IBM: NOVELL steps up to the plate >Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 12:56:08 +0300 > >What I find fascinating (and that no-one has mentioned yet) is how anyone >can claim that Unix internals are still trade secret, especially given >this book: > > The Design of the UNIX Operating System, > Maurice J. Bach. > Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, USA, 1986. > ISBN 0-13-201799-7. > >There's also these: > > The Magic Garden Explained: > The Internals of Unix System V Release 4: > An Open Systems Design, > Berny Goodheart, James Cox, John R. Mashey. > Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, USA, 1994. > ISBN 0-13-098138-9. > > Unix Internals: The New Frontiers, > Uresh Vahalia. > Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, USA, 1996. > ISBN 0-13-101908-2. > According to Amazon.com, a new edition is scheduled for 2005. > >The Bach book, in particular, is a rather large smoking gun that AT&T >didn't care a huge amount about trade secrets. The book is still in >print (and selling for a whopping $69.97 on Amazon.com!) It doesn't >contain actual source code, but let's get real here... > >Arnold >_______________________________________________ >TUHS mailing list >TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org >http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [TUHS] a question re pdp11 unix7

by zmkm zmkm

keneth thanks for the interesting infos , you solved a big puzzle for me :-) now I know why the screen is acting rather strange. ! cheers >From: Kenneth Stailey <kstailey(a)yahoo.com> >To: zmkm zmkm <new_zmkm(a)hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [TUHS] a question re pdp11 unix7 >Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:23:56 -0700 (PDT) > >Seveth Edition UNIX assumed hardcopy terminal and did not have a terminal >pager. > >Because of that assumption it also cannot backspace the way you would want >it >to on a CRT. > >Use "#" for backspace "@" for kill line (modern version is Ctrl-U). >Characters >will not be erased on screen but they will be discarded from the input >line. > >--- zmkm zmkm <new_zmkm(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > Hi all > > > > just a quick question about pdp11 unix7 , what's the pg command on unix7 >? , > > like later versions of unix was pg as in ( ls -l | pg ) . > > > > tks in advance for the infos. > > > > rgs to all > > zmkm > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TUHS mailing list > > TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). >http://calendar.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [TUHS] a question re pdp11 unix7

by zmkm zmkm

Thanks guys , I think I am going to stick to bwc suggestion it looks suitable , I got the book and found it so Ill work on it asap. tks >From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> >To: tuhs(a)tuhs.org >Subject: Re: [TUHS] a question re pdp11 unix7 >Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 19:21:35 -0700 (PDT) > > > Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 10:59:44 +1000 > > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)tuhs.org> > > To: The Unix Heritage Society <tuhs(a)tuhs.org> > > Subject: Re: [TUHS] a question re pdp11 unix7 > > > > On Sat, Jun 07, 2003 at 05:29:30PM +0000, zmkm zmkm wrote: > > > just a quick question about pdp11 unix7 , what's the pg command on >unix7 ? > > > , like later versions of unix was pg as in ( ls -l | pg ) . > > > > lp ? :-) > > Warren > >I think I remember being able to use the hardware Scroll Lock on a >VT05 terminal with some variety of Unix, perhaps late 6th Edition. > > carl >-- > carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego > clowenst(a)ucsd.edu >_______________________________________________ >TUHS mailing list >TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org >http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [TUHS] a question re pdp11 unix7

by Carl Lowenstein

> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 10:59:44 +1000 > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)tuhs.org> > To: The Unix Heritage Society <tuhs(a)tuhs.org> > Subject: Re: [TUHS] a question re pdp11 unix7 > > On Sat, Jun 07, 2003 at 05:29:30PM +0000, zmkm zmkm wrote: > > just a quick question about pdp11 unix7 , what's the pg command on unix7 ? > > , like later versions of unix was pg as in ( ls -l | pg ) . > > lp ? :-) > Warren I think I remember being able to use the hardware Scroll Lock on a VT05 terminal with some variety of Unix, perhaps late 6th Edition. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst(a)ucsd.edu

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a question re pdp11 unix7

by zmkm zmkm

Hi all just a quick question about pdp11 unix7 , what's the pg command on unix7 ? , like later versions of unix was pg as in ( ls -l | pg ) . tks in advance for the infos. rgs to all zmkm _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [pups] Re: Concurrent Pascal, Solo OS, et al

by Al Kossow

I've located the SOLO RK05 disc image. I tested it with SIMH, and it appears to work. The command language is a bit opaque; it would be a great help if you could find out if they might still have the documentation, even if they didn't have the code itself. Hopefully, Bob Supnik can get permission to add this to the SIMH software archive. the image temporarily at www.spies.com/aek/solo.dsk --- LIST(CATALOG,ALL,CONSOLE) CONSOLE: SOLO SYSTEM FILES AUTOLOAD SCRATCH PROTECTED 1 PAGES BACKUP SEQCODE PROTECTED 4 PAGES BACKUPMAN ASCII PROTECTED 3 PAGES BACKUPTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 14 PAGES BUILDBATTEXT ASCII UNPROTECTED 1 PAGES BUILDTEXT ASCII UNPROTECTED 4 PAGES CARDS SEQCODE PROTECTED 5 PAGES CARDSMAN ASCII PROTECTED 2 PAGES CARDSTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 12 PAGES CATALOG SCRATCH PROTECTED 15 PAGES CDISKTEXT ASCII UNPROTECTED 10 PAGES COMMANDS ASCII UNPROTECTED 1 PAGES CONSOLE SEQCODE PROTECTED 1 PAGES CONSOLEMAN ASCII PROTECTED 1 PAGES CONSOLETEXT ASCII PROTECTED 8 PAGES COPY SEQCODE PROTECTED 4 PAGES COPYMAN ASCII PROTECTED 2 PAGES COPYTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 12 PAGES CPASCAL SEQCODE PROTECTED 7 PAGES CPASCALMAN ASCII PROTECTED 3 PAGES CPASCALTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 18 PAGES CPASS1 SEQCODE PROTECTED 20 PAGES CPASS1TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 54 PAGES CPASS2 SEQCODE PROTECTED 26 PAGES CPASS2TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 72 PAGES CPASS3 SEQCODE PROTECTED 35 PAGES CPASS3TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 90 PAGES CPASS4 SEQCODE PROTECTED 27 PAGES CPASS4TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 71 PAGES CPASS5 SEQCODE PROTECTED 20 PAGES CPASS5TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 56 PAGES CPASS6 SEQCODE PROTECTED 16 PAGES CPASS6TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 53 PAGES CPASS7 SEQCODE PROTECTED 18 PAGES CPASS7TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 56 PAGES CPTEXT ASCII UNPROTECTED 2 PAGES DISK SEQCODE PROTECTED 2 PAGES DISKMAN ASCII PROTECTED 1 PAGES DISKTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 9 PAGES DO SEQCODE PROTECTED 11 PAGES DOMAN ASCII PROTECTED 3 PAGES DOTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 26 PAGES EDIT SEQCODE PROTECTED 8 PAGES EDITMAN ASCII PROTECTED 5 PAGES EDITTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 20 PAGES FILE SEQCODE PROTECTED 20 PAGES FILEMAN ASCII PROTECTED 3 PAGES FILETEXT ASCII PROTECTED 54 PAGES IO SEQCODE PROTECTED 4 PAGES IOTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 13 PAGES JOB SEQCODE PROTECTED 40 PAGES JOBBUFFER1 SCRATCH PROTECTED 20 PAGES JOBBUFFER2 SCRATCH PROTECTED 20 PAGES JOBINPUT SEQCODE PROTECTED 3 PAGES JOBINPUTTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 6 PAGES JOBOUTPUT SEQCODE PROTECTED 2 PAGES JOBOUTPUTTXT ASCII PROTECTED 6 PAGES JOBPREFIX ASCII PROTECTED 1 PAGES JOBSERVICE SEQCODE PROTECTED 3 PAGES JOBSERVICETX ASCII PROTECTED 8 PAGES JOBSTREAM CONCODE PROTECTED 17 PAGES JOBSTREAMTXT ASCII PROTECTED 50 PAGES KERNELTEXT1 ASCII UNPROTECTED 134 PAGES KERNELTEXT2 ASCII UNPROTECTED 129 PAGES KERNELTEXT3 ASCII UNPROTECTED 147 PAGES KERNELTEXT4 ASCII UNPROTECTED 171 PAGES LIST SEQCODE PROTECTED 7 PAGES LISTMAN ASCII PROTECTED 2 PAGES LISTTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 19 PAGES MAKETEMP SEQCODE PROTECTED 4 PAGES MAKETEMPMAN ASCII PROTECTED 1 PAGES MAKETEMPTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 12 PAGES MOVE SEQCODE PROTECTED 2 PAGES MOVEMAN ASCII PROTECTED 1 PAGES MOVETEXT ASCII PROTECTED 10 PAGES MTOPTEXT ASCII UNPROTECTED 4 PAGES NEXT SCRATCH PROTECTED 255 PAGES PIPELINE CONCODE PROTECTED 4 PAGES PIPELINETEXT ASCII PROTECTED 8 PAGES PREFIX ASCII PROTECTED 6 PAGES PRINTER SEQCODE PROTECTED 3 PAGES PRINTERMAN ASCII PROTECTED 2 PAGES PRINTERTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 11 PAGES READ SEQCODE PROTECTED 4 PAGES READMAN ASCII PROTECTED 2 PAGES READTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 12 PAGES REALTIME CONCODE PROTECTED 11 PAGES REALTIMETEXT ASCII PROTECTED 23 PAGES RKBOOTTEXT ASCII UNPROTECTED 6 PAGES SOLO CONCODE PROTECTED 18 PAGES SOLOBATTEXT ASCII UNPROTECTED 4 PAGES SOLOCOPY ASCII PROTECTED 1 PAGES SOLOFILES ASCII PROTECTED 1 PAGES SOLOTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 52 PAGES SPASCAL SEQCODE PROTECTED 7 PAGES SPASCALMAN ASCII PROTECTED 3 PAGES SPASCALTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 18 PAGES SPASS1 SEQCODE PROTECTED 20 PAGES SPASS1TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 53 PAGES SPASS2 SEQCODE PROTECTED 26 PAGES SPASS2TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 73 PAGES SPASS3 SEQCODE PROTECTED 35 PAGES SPASS3TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 91 PAGES SPASS4 SEQCODE PROTECTED 26 PAGES SPASS4TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 65 PAGES SPASS5 SEQCODE PROTECTED 19 PAGES SPASS5TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 54 PAGES SPASS6 SEQCODE PROTECTED 16 PAGES SPASS6TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 53 PAGES SPASS7 SEQCODE PROTECTED 18 PAGES SPASS7TEXT ASCII PROTECTED 56 PAGES START SEQCODE PROTECTED 3 PAGES STARTMAN ASCII PROTECTED 3 PAGES STARTTEXT ASCII PROTECTED 11 PAGES SUPERMAC ASCII UNPROTECTED 30 PAGES TAPE SEQCODE PROTECTED 3 PAGES TAPEMAN ASCII PROTECTED 2 PAGES TAPETEXT ASCII PROTECTED 14 PAGES TEMP1 SCRATCH PROTECTED 255 PAGES TEMP2 SCRATCH PROTECTED 255 PAGES TOTAPETEXT ASCII UNPROTECTED 4 PAGES WRITE SEQCODE PROTECTED 2 PAGES WRITEMAN ASCII PROTECTED 1 PAGES WRITETEXT ASCII PROTECTED 9 PAGES XMAC ASCII UNPROTECTED 1 PAGES 125 ENTRIES 3391 PAGES

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Re: [pups] Re: Concurrent Pascal, Solo OS, et al

by Al Kossow

I've located a paper which describes the system, which I've put up along with the disc image in www.spies.com/aek/solo I'll see about extracting all of the files.

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Cringely on SCO vs. IBM

by Kenneth Stailey

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030605.html Technician, Steal Thyself SCO, Not IBM, May Have Put Unix Code Into Linux Instead? By Robert X. Cringely There is something about institutional memory, the way organizations do or don't remember things. Covering IBM back in the Opel and Akers eras, I noticed a very interesting thing about the way that company handled internal information, which was through the use of plausible deniability. There was a difference at IBM between knowing something and having it be known that you knew something. So when an IBMer would say he didn't know a fact or the answer to my question, it didn't always mean he lacked the information. It could just as easily have meant that he/she hadn't been BRIEFED on the information. Anything learned at the water cooler wasn't real. I wonder, then, how they handle institutional memory issues at SCO, our subject for the last couple weeks, because reality seems not to even be involved. Can it be that the very crime SCO is accusing IBM of committing could have been done, instead, by SCO itself? I think so. Remember, SCO is suing IBM for stealing bits of Unix and putting those bits inside Linux. How IBM is supposed to have done that remains a mystery, because the only version of Linux that includes any IBM authorship claim is for the S/390 mainframes, and even that wasn't written by IBM. According to folks who did the work, it was done under contract to IBM by SuSE Linux AG, the German Linux vendor. IBM provided the hardware and some access to IBM mainframe engineers, but 98 percent of the work was done by SuSE. At Linuxworld 2000, IBM didn't even help with the install or configuration of Linux on the S/390 they loaned SuSE for the show. Where, then, did IBM get those Unix parts it is supposed to have stolen? They certainly didn't come from IBM's version of Unix, AIX, which bears little internal similarity to any other Unix. I think the parts may have come from SCO, itself. Here is where institutional memory ought to come into play but doesn't seem to be. Remember that the motto of the combined Caldera and SCO was "Unifying Unix with Linux for Business." It is very possible that SCO's Linux team added UnixWare and OpenServer code to Linux. They then sent their Linux developers to SuSE when United Linux was formed. Soon after that, CEO Ransom Love departed. Now the SCO management is scouring the UnixWare, OpenServer and Linux code bases and says that they are finding cut-and-pasted code. Chances are that their former employees put it there. "Open Unix 8 is the first step in implementing the vision of the pending new company," said Ransom Love, president and CEO of Caldera Systems in a company press release way back when. "It combines the heritage of Unix with the momentum of Linux, and will be our premiere product for data intensive applications like database, email and supply chain management. The incorporation of the Linux application engine into the UnixWare kernel essentially redefines the direction of the product, and motivates a new brand identity -- Open Unix." But wait, there's more! Here is what Ransom Love said to ZDNet around the same time: ZDNet: What does the future hold for your unified Linux/Unix platform? Love: "When we talk about unifying Unix and Linux, the two have a huge amount in common. A lot of people are running their businesses on Unix, while Linux has a tremendous population on Web servers and other front-end servers. So we are taking both and combining them into one platform." So SCO/Caldera spent two years "unifying" Unix and Linux and is now outraged to find some of their intellectual property in Linux. Well duh! That's exactly what they said they were going to do. But does it even matter? As I noted last week, Novell retained the Unix patents and copyrights when it sold whatever it sold to SCO back in 1995. The best SCO can claim, given that Novell won't pursue a copyright or patent claim against IBM, is that IBM is in violation of its Unix license agreement. WHAT license agreement? That SCO/Novell deal from 1995 gets murkier and murkier when you add in the claims of The Open Group, a consortium that acquired the Unix trademark from Novell at the same time SCO wasn't acquiring the Unix copyrights or patents. "IBM's ability to call AIX a Unix system is due to its license from The Open Group," says the group's marketing vice-president Graham Bird. "This license requires IBM (and all other licensees) to warrant that it's certified products conform with the Single Unix Specification. So, SCO cannot yank IBM's right to call their certified products Unix, I'm delighted to say." If SCO doesn't own the copyrights or patents, and it doesn't even have a sublicensing agreement with the organization that owns the trademark, what rights could they possibly intend to deny IBM as of June 13th?" Nobody really knows. There is an easy solution to this problem, one that I wouldn't be at all surprised is in the works. SCO is angling to be acquired by IBM in an out-of-court settlement. Certainly, IBM can afford to buy the Unix copyrights and patents from Novell and I think Novell would sell them. That would bring everything but the Unix trademark under the same roof. And I don't think IBM really cares that much about the Unix trademark. They care much more about the Linux trademark. So let's say IBM buys up all these rights for a few hundred million dollars, then puts the whole package under the General Public License, essentially making Unix into an Open Source product. Why would IBM do something like that? They'd do it to sell more computers. People forget that IBM is mainly a hardware and services company. By putting Unix under the GPL they would become heroes to the programmers and system admins and end up selling even more hardware and services. Remember, IBM already invested $1 billion in Linux and claimed to have made that money back within a year. Buying SCO and the Novell IP could be viewed as just the next step of that very smart investment. [...snip unrelated sections...] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [TUHS] About Sys V copyright notices

by Warren Toomey

Warren did: > > $ zcat tape1.tar.gz | strings | grep -i copyr | uniq -c | sort -rn On Thu, Jun 05, 2003 at 11:35:53AM -0700, Kenneth Stailey wrote: > why did you run "uniq -c | sort" and not "sort | uniq -c" ? Because it was late. I really should have done $ zcat tape1.tar.gz | strings | grep -i copyr | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn: 56 /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ 20 c/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ 6 Copyright \fB\^\s+8\v'.25m'\(co\v'-.25m'\s-8\|\fP1983 Western Electric Company, Incorporated. 6 "\001c\bO", /*copyright*/ 4 Portions of this document were copyrighted 4 PAIR('c','o'), 0336, /*copyright*/ 2 x/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ 2 t/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ 2 e/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ 2 copyright 2 0153, /*copyright*/ 2 .\" Portions of this document were copyrighted 2 'co', 0336, /*copyright*/ 2 "\033\016O\b#\033\017", /*copyright*/ 2 "\003(c)", /*copyright*/ 2 "\001\0338c\0339", /*copyright*/ 2 * Copyright 1975 Bell Telephone Laboratories, Incorporated 2 /* Copyright 1976, Bell Telephone Laboratories, Inc., There, that's better :-) Warren

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About Sys III status

by Wesley Parish

I came across this: cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/bsdi/930303.ruling.txt 17 U.S.C. 101. Version 32V source code has now been distributed, without notice, to literally thousands of licensees. Consequently, Plaintiff can have no valid copyright on 32V unless it can fit within one of the statutory or common law escape provisions. The three statutory escape provisions are listed in section 405(a). These provisions relieve a copyright owner from the harsh consequences of noticeless publication if the owner (i) omitted the notice from a "relatively small number of copies;" (ii) registers the work within five years of publication, and then makes a "reasonable effort" to add notices to the noticeless copies already distributed; or (iii) proves that a third party omitted, notice in violation of an express agreement in writing 17 U.S.C 405(a)(1)-(3). Plaintiff cannot avail itself of any of these provisions. Notice was omitted from thousands of copies of 32V; no contractual agreements require the licensees to affix notice; Plaintiff failed to copyright 32V until 1992, well over five years after 32V was published; and Plaintiff has not yet made reasonable efforts to add notices to the many noticeless publications of 32V. Consequently, Plaintiff must try to fit within the common-law doctrine of limited publication. and I felt like asking a few questions in relation to Sys III - was it copyrighted? When? And has SCO's publication of said Sys III on its Ancient Unix web site created the presumption that SCO has no further interest in Sys III? Wesley Parish -- Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

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the SCO/Novell contract

by Kenneth Stailey

http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-1013229.html Contract illuminates Novell, SCO spat By Stephen Shankland Staff Writer, CNET News.com June 4, 2003, 3:01 PM PT A 1995 contract sheds light on the conflicting Unix ownership claims by Novell and SCO Group, with SCO receiving broad rights to the operating system but Novell retaining copyrights and patents. According to a copy of the contract obtained by CNET News.com, Novell sold "all rights and ownership of Unix and UnixWare" to the SCO Group's predecessor, the Santa Cruz Operation. However, the asset purchase agreement, filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, specifically excludes "all copyrights" and "all patents" from the purchase. "This agreement is kind of murky...You end up with a lot of questions, to put it mildly," said Mark Radcliffe, an intellectual property attorney with law firm Gray Cary. While the contract squarely leaves the copyright with Novell, a section that gives to SCO "all claims...against any parties relating to any right, property or asset included in the (Unix) business" could be interpreted to give SCO the right to enforce the copyright, Radcliffe said. "The question is, even though (Novell) didn't assign the intellectual property (to SCO), did (Novell) assign the rights to enforce the patents and copyrights?" The Unix ownership issue is central to a debate about whether companies can be taken to court for using Linux. On May 14, SCO claimed in letters sent to 1,500 of the world's largest companies that using Linux could open them to legal liability because Unix source code has been copied into Linux. That copying, if proven and illegal, could violate Unix copyrights and the independent spirit of the open-source movement that creates Linux, but the contract indicates SCO won't have a simple time relying on Unix copyrights in such a case. A week after SCO's letter, Novell said it never sold SCO the Unix copyrights and patents and that SCO's actions could bring legal action on itself. "We believe it unlikely that SCO can demonstrate that it has any ownership interest whatsoever in those copyrights," Novell Chief Executive Jack Messman said in a letter to SCO. The Unix ownership debate grew from SCO's $1 billion lawsuit against IBM, alleging Big Blue breached its contract with SCO and misappropriated SCO's trade secrets by moving Unix intellectual property into Linux. IBM denies the claims. SCO didn't immediately respond to questions about how the contract supports its claims to rights of copyright enforcement, but company Chief Executive Darl McBride last week said the contract had "conflicting statements." "It doesn't make sense. How would you transfer the product but not have the copyright attached? That would be like transferring a book but only getting the cover," McBride said. Novell continues to disagree with SCO. "It's pretty clear that patents and copyrights were excluded and not included in the business as it's described (in the contract), so we don't believe SCO would have copyright and patent enforcement rights," Hal Thayer, vice president of communications for Novell, said Wednesday. Novell is basing future operating system products on Linux, and open-source advocates say they are reassured by Messman's words that the company won't press its own copyright claims. "Novell is an ardent supporter of Linux and the open-source development community," Messman has said. "It's difficult to imagine any scenario in which we'd bring Unix copyright infringement action against Linux users. We certainly don't have any plans to do any such thing...and we wouldn't have undertaken this whole call to SCO to prove their claims if that was the road we wanted to pursue," Thayer said. The 1995 contract appears to give Novell the edge in the copyright debate, said John Ferrell, an intellectual property attorney with Carr and Ferrell, who reviewed the contract. "This would support Novell's contention that SCO does not own the copyrights and does not have the right to litigate" a copyright infringement case, Ferrell said. However, he said, the contract does indicate SCO could pursue a case that a Unix licensee breached its contract. But the contract is odd, Ferrell said. "It's very unusual to have the transfer of a software program and not have the rights of copyright transferred as well," he said. SCO vehemently argues that it has copyright enforcement rights, but in any case, it doesn't need the Unix copyright to go after Linux users. "I think it's perfectly clear we have the rights to enforce copyright claims," McBride said in an interview after Novell challenged SCO's Linux actions. But more likely than a copyright case, would be one based on breach of contract, he said. "The letter went to 1,500 large companies around the world, the majority of which all have (Unix) System V licenses with us...We do have sublicense rights," McBride said. "They sign up for the fact that they will not misappropriate the code." The sublicenses come through Unix purchases made with direct Unix licensees such as Silicon Graphics, Hewlett-Packard and IBM, he said. But the absence of copyright and patent claims in SCO's lawsuit against IBM is telling, Gray Cary's Radcliffe said. Copyright and patent claims can make a strong case. "If they had the rights to enforce the copyrights, how come that didn't show up in the IBM suit?" Radcliffe asked. "It's very weird they would bring a lawsuit on trade secret (misappropriation) and unfair competition and not put in copyrights and patents. Those are the strongest rights. Particularly with IBM, you don't go out and say, 'I'm not going to take the elephant-hunting rifle with me, I'm just going to take my .22-caliber.'" SCO has said it has the option to include copyright claims later. But while it's said Unix code was copied into Linux, it hasn't yet said who it believes is responsible. SCO says it will show proof of the copying later this month to some neutral parties. SCO's suit mentions concepts and methods, but not copyrights: "It is not possible for Linux to rapidly reach Unix performance standards for complete enterprise functionality without the misappropriation of Unix code, methods or concepts to achieve such performance and coordination by a larger developer such as IBM." Radcliffe said copying methods and concepts are much weaker evidence than copying code. "If they did enough due diligence to figure out there were concepts there, how the heck did they miss that there was actual code copying?" he asked. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com

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RE: [TUHS] Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #159 - 12 msgs

by Ian King

There's an old joke: If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the facts are against you, argue the law. If both are against you, call the other attorney names. It's possible this is an elaborate tactic to step on IBM's feet until IBM apologizes - see "The Mouse That Roared". It could be that the issues are so convoluted, the SCO folks are very crafty (and think they can irritate Big Blue enough that IBM will pay them to go away). But it is indeed possible that they are really this clueless. There are many examples of businesses that once held pre-eminent positions, layed low by bonehead business decisions. In any event, baseless lawsuits are a common business tool these days. And in a country where you can become independently wealthy by spilling coffee in your lap, and you can lose the popular vote by a large margin but be appointed to the highest office in the land by your daddy's Supreme Court - is any legal maneuver really a surprise anymore? I printed out my "ancient UNIX" license (I got a no-charge license), I'm not erasing my RK05s yet. :-) -- Ian NOTE: The above is my personal ranting, and should not be construed to reflect the policies or opinions of my employer. ________________________________ From: tuhs-admin(a)minnie.tuhs.org on behalf of Larry McVoy Sent: Thu 5/29/2003 7:42 PM To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: [TUHS] Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #159 - 12 msgs > SCO is blustering more and more as the open source community exposes > them for the fruads that they have become. In the for what it is worth department, I happen to know that this stuff is more complex than it seems. For instance, I am pretty sure that ATT should have won their lawsuit over the BSD stuff and if you doubt that I'd suggest that you go compare the UFS code against the 32v or v7 code. bmap() is a good place to look. Any suggestions that that was completely rewritten are patently false, at least in my opinion. I'm a file system guy, I've done a lot of work in UFS, I'm intimately familiar with the code. In fact, I defended UFS against LFS when Kirk wouldn't (LFS is a friggin' joke, any file system hacker knows that the allocation policy is 90% of the file system). I do not have knowledge of the code it is that SCO says infringes. And I think that SCO is about as astute as I am in terms of public relations (we both tend to be our own worst enemies and I thought I was without peer in that department :-) But I suspect that there is at least some merit to what they are claiming. I have to believe that nobody is stupid enough to have zero data and jump out in public like they are doing. That's just way too far over the top. Anything is possible I guess, but doesn't it seem just a little unlikely that a corporation would commit that public a suicide? I'll probably be proved wrong but I'm a CEO, running a small company, much smaller than SCO, and there is no way I'd stick my neck out that far with no data to back it up. I'd like to think I'm smarter than they are but I tend to doubt it, they have more experience. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm _______________________________________________ TUHS mailing list TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

21 years, 11 months

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Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #159 - 12 msgs

by Larry McVoy

> SCO is blustering more and more as the open source community exposes > them for the fruads that they have become. In the for what it is worth department, I happen to know that this stuff is more complex than it seems. For instance, I am pretty sure that ATT should have won their lawsuit over the BSD stuff and if you doubt that I'd suggest that you go compare the UFS code against the 32v or v7 code. bmap() is a good place to look. Any suggestions that that was completely rewritten are patently false, at least in my opinion. I'm a file system guy, I've done a lot of work in UFS, I'm intimately familiar with the code. In fact, I defended UFS against LFS when Kirk wouldn't (LFS is a friggin' joke, any file system hacker knows that the allocation policy is 90% of the file system). I do not have knowledge of the code it is that SCO says infringes. And I think that SCO is about as astute as I am in terms of public relations (we both tend to be our own worst enemies and I thought I was without peer in that department :-) But I suspect that there is at least some merit to what they are claiming. I have to believe that nobody is stupid enough to have zero data and jump out in public like they are doing. That's just way too far over the top. Anything is possible I guess, but doesn't it seem just a little unlikely that a corporation would commit that public a suicide? I'll probably be proved wrong but I'm a CEO, running a small company, much smaller than SCO, and there is no way I'd stick my neck out that far with no data to back it up. I'd like to think I'm smarter than they are but I tend to doubt it, they have more experience. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [TUHS] Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #159 - 12 msgs

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Greg Lehey: For example, last year Caldera released "ancient UNIX" under a BSD-style license, but now they're claiming it never happened. Maybe they don't know about the company history. And if the code in dispute is derived from ancient UNIX, there'll be egg on their face. ===== If the code in dispute is derived from an ancient UNIX covered by the Jan 2002 free license, and it doesn't clearly say so somewhere, there is certainly egg and chips on someone's face. Said license imposes few conditions, but one is that Caldera's copyright must be maintained and the notice `This product includes software developed or owned by Caldera International, Inc.' placed in `any advertising materials.' Of course, if the code comes from V6 and those notices are present and Caldera still claims it's stolen, that's another basket of eggs. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

21 years, 11 months

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The REEL reasons for the SCO vs. IBM affair

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Hello folks. I've been watching this whole SCO vs. IBM assault on Linux thing and here are my thoughts. I would not surprised a bit if it turns out that this idea was conceived somewhere inside Microsoft, or in the White House, in the Pentagon, or even at Area 51. This is about world control. A certain group of enormous power has been ruling this planet and holding it in slavery for the past 4000 years. They are the ones in control today. They control the world through their control of globalised imperial capitalism, total control of all media, and mind control achieved by controlling all information input into human minds. Control of computing and information resources is obviously of vital importance to them in this day and age. It is they who invented M$ Weendoze, probably the most effective brainwashing device since the Bible. It is really Weendoze that keeps them in power. There are many activists fighting against this shadow government, but their efforts are in vain for as long as they use Weendoze. Fighting the shadow government while using their OS is like going on a duel and having your opponent load your gun for you. This is precisely why the shadow government is acting so arrogantly and seemingly naively. Many conspiracy researchers have wondered how come if this shadow govt is so powerful and obviously wants to remain in control, why aren't they assassinating us or something to stop our efforts to defeat them. And I think I know the answer now. They government is not assassinating conspiracy researchers en masse because the vast majority of them use Weendoze and praise Bill Gates. Thus while thinking that they are fighting the shadow government, they actually support it. And now it seems like the shadowy powers have begun to *really* fear Linux. Because Linux more than anything poses the greatest threat to their power. It does because if all those conspiracy researchers and anti-shadow govt freedom fighters who are already out there happen to switch to Windows to Linux, the probability of which rises proportionally as Linux gains more and more use, then bye-bye shadow government. *That* is what they fear. And that is why they have undertaken this ultrasecret covert anti-Linux operation. Just my thoughts. MS P.S. Too bad that you've just missed Conspiracy Con 2003 last weekend, but they have them every year. But there is also the companion conference, Bay Area UFO Expo held in September, where they also talk a lot about conspiracies, as these conspiracies are ultimately extraterrestrial. If anyone is interested in this I strongly recommend going to the Expo this September. I'll be there if anyone wants to meet me.

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [TUHS] SCO vs. IBM: NOVELL steps up to the plate

by Wesley Parish

On Friday 30 May 2003 11:50 am, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 29 May 2003 at 6:33:54 -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote: > > In message: <BAFBB8B1.118%rob(a)vetsystems.com> > > > > Robert Tillyard <rob(a)vetsystems.com> writes: > >> I believe the legal action is over breach on contract with IBM and > >> not on copyright issues. > > > > All of SCO's statements to the court have been contractual. Their > > statements to the press have been inflated to include things that > > aren't actually alledged in the court filings. > > What's not very clear here is that there seem to be two issues. The > IBM issue is, as you say, a contractual one which about which they > have been remarkably vague. The suspension of Linux distribution is a > different matter. From http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html: > > On Tuesday, 27 May 2003, I spoke to Kieran O'Shaughnessy, managing > director of SCO Australia. He told me that SCO had entrusted three > independent companies to compare the code of the UnixWare and Linux > kernels. All three had come back pointing to significant > occurrences of common code ("UnixWare code", as he put it) in both > kernels. > > In view of the long and varied history of UNIX, I wondered whether > the code in question might have been legally transferred from an > older version of UNIX to Linux, so I asked him if he really meant > UnixWare and not System V.4. He stated that it was specifically > UnixWare 7. > > >> But if it turns out the IBM is guilty of lifting SCO code and > >> putting it into Linux I think SCO does have the right to get a bit > >> upset about it, after all I wouldn't be to happy if I had to > >> compete with a product that's just about free and contains code > >> that I wrote. > > > > That's the rub. Do they, in point of fact, actually have any code > > they own the Copyright to or the patent rights to? > > Of course they have lots of code with their own copyright. The > release of JFS was one example. Probably the majority of AIX was > developed by IBM, not by AT&T. It's rather similar to the issue with > 4BSD in the early 90s: with a little bit of work you could probably > replace the entire AT&T code in AIX and have a system which did not > require an SCO license. I would say that that is entirely likely. AIX was developed by IBM for IBM-specific machines running in IBM-style environments, and I can imagine that SysVRx just _doesn't_ _cut_ _the_ _mustard_. So, SCO's latching on the IBM for Monterey - RS-6000 was 64-bit, or am I getting confused? - probably gave SCO much more than it gave IBM. So ironically, if IBM donated stuff to Monterey under the terms of the agreement and later incorporated the same stuff into Linux, it _could_ look as if they had taken stuff from SysVRx/Unixware - stuff that SCO had never had the opportunity to develop if it hadn't been for Monterey and IBM's pre-existing expertise. Just some thoughts - but if that is so, I can see why IBM's not getting too het up about the whole muck-up. Wesley Parish > If you mean "is there IBM copyright code in Linux?", I think the > answer is again yes, but it's under the GPL or possibly IPL, IBM's > attempt at a compromise between proprietary licenses and the GPL. I > think they've given up on the IPL now. > > For what it's worth, I'd be astounded if SCO's claims were found to be > true. > > Greg -- Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [TUHS] SCO vs. IBM: NOVELL steps up to the plate

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Interesting. I suggest everyone interested in this fracas read the whole scoop at (to repeat Kenneth Stailey's pointer) http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html Here's a question of interest not to the Linux community but to the TUHS one: if, as Novell now claim, the 1995 agreement didn't convey the UNIX copyrights to SCO, under what right did SCO issue the Ancient UNIX Source Code agreements, whether the restrictive version of early 1998 or the do-as-you-like Caldera letter of early 2002? Are those agreements really valid? Norman Wilson Toronto ON

21 years, 11 months

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Re: [TUHS] SCO vs. IBM: NOVELL steps up to the plate

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

M. Warner Losh: There's another article that is saying that there are 10-15 line snippets scattered all through the kernel. Give me a break. That claim is so absurd as to be not credible on its face. I can see one or two files, maybe stretching my disbelief to its limits, but I can't see anything more pervasive than that. I agree that it sounds unlikely, and I won't give it much credit until SCO makes its evidence generally available. But it's by no means absurd. Suppose SCO invented some whizzy data structure and associated code conventions to afford especially efficient interprocessor locks. That could show up in fragments scattered throughout the kernel, and the idea itself could in fact be valuable intellectual property and the fragments a demonstration that the idea was stolen. Or suppose the issue at hand was a particular way to implement a file system switch. I was involved in adding such a thing to an old-fashioned kernel myself; it touches many little pieces of code all over the kernel that happen to do certain things to or with in-core i-nodes. If I was worried that someone had stolen such work wholesale, part of what I would look for would indeed be scattered fragments. As I say, there's no useful evidence on view at all, therefore there is no useful evidence that what I am describing is what the fuss is about. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

21 years, 11 months

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where to find source to pack(1)/unpack(1)

by Kenneth Stailey

Hi, I have a cont.a.z I would like to extract. When I run it through Solaris unpack(1) there are no complaints but then I go to unarchive it with either my 3BSD derived ar11 port or Warren's 2.9BSD newoldar and get: $ file cont.a cont.a: old PDP-11 archive $ ar11 tv cont.a rwx---r-- 2/0 3505 Aug 20 17:07 1976 alog.mat rw----r-- 2/0 273 Jan 3 05:14 1978 assem rwx---r-- 2/0 6332 Aug 20 17:07 1976 atan.mat r-s--x-w- 9/49170995977 Oct 22 01:48 1974 1 1 1 1 1 ar11: phase error on 1 1 1 1 1 Same thing with newoldar. I'm thinking Solaris unpack was incompatible with the pack that was used to make the cont.a.z. Possibly endian issues. I go poking around for pack(1) in V7 and PWB and 2.11BSD but can't find anything. Any ideas? Thanks, Ken __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com

21 years, 11 months

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Re: non-broken 4.3BSD set?

by Warren Toomey

In article by Robertdkeys(a)aol.com: > Warren... is there a non-broken 4.3BSD-Tahoe set somewhere? > Bob As in a bootable 4.3BSD-Tahoe kit? As far as I know, no. The Unix Archive has a broken copy in 4BSD/Distributions/4.3BSD-Tahoe, indicating that both usr.tar and src.tar are broken. It might/should be possible to merge files from the CRSG CD set from Kirk to recreate these tar files. Anybody out there have an unbroken Tahoe release? Warren

21 years, 11 months

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SCO vs. IBM: Eric Raymond striking a blow for ... something

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Aharon Robbins: I just saw this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/nosecrets/ This either Very Smart or Very Dumb, I'm not sure which. I will just point out the recursive conflict when he says I can't talk about how this information will be applied, nor by who. You'll have to trust me, or at any rate my record as ambassador to the community ... I find it hard to take a secret No Secrets campaign seriously. If I am to be used as an example of something or to promote some cause, I think it's only fair that the campaigner tell me just what he's up to first. That such a campaign exists in the current context also sounds to me like an admission that substantial parts of Linux were in fact lifted directly from a licensed UNIX. That that might be so seems surprising; that someone would want to prove it was OK even more so. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

21 years, 12 months

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Re: [TUHS] SCO vs. IBM: Eric Raymond striking a blow for ... something

by Aharon Robbins

> I find it hard to take a secret No Secrets campaign seriously. That says it well. > That such a campaign exists in the current context also sounds to > me like an admission that substantial parts of Linux were in fact > lifted directly from a licensed UNIX. That that might be so seems > surprising; that someone would want to prove it was OK even more so. I think it's more of a "How dare anyone even think licensed code was lifted? We all know better than that. I'm gonna show you that you don't even have a leg to stand on." Whatever. Anyone with any sense knows that SCO hasn't got much ground to stand on. Sadly, "anyone with any sense" likely doesn't cover the judge and the jury. Sigh. (Fade to black, as Dionne Warwick sings "Deja Vu" in the background...) Arnold

21 years, 12 months

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SCO vs. IBM: Eric Raymond striking a blow for ... something

by Aharon Robbins

I just saw this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/nosecrets/ This either Very Smart or Very Dumb, I'm not sure which. I don't know that it need be discussed to death on this list, either, but I do figure that the list members will at least be interested in it. Arnold

21 years, 12 months

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Re: [TUHS] V7 ls -s option

by Aharon Robbins

The V7 ls.c code: > >>> long > >>> nblock(size) > >>> long size; > >>> { > >>> return((size+511)>>9); > >>> } > >> I wrote: > > In fact, the V7 calculation is only > > an approximation in another sense; a file with large holes could > > generate too large a result. Greg wrote: > A block is a block. If it's allocated, it's all there (at least in > the Seventh Edition). It doesn't make any difference that some of the > space in the block may not represent valid data. You're missing my point. Consider a C program along these lines: int main(void) { int fd = creat("/some/file", 0600); lseek(fd, 123456789L, 0); /* absolute seek */ write(fd, "x", 1); close(fd); } After running this program, the `/some/file' file now looks rather large. But it only has one block allocated to it. However, the V7 nblock() function computes a number somewhat larger than one. Thanks, Arnold

21 years, 12 months

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Re: [TUHS] sco v. ibm

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

I haven't come up to speed yet on SCOIBM Wars (pronounce it as you like, but perhaps not in polite company), but even so I know enough to ask a question: is anyone in possession of a signed, original, genuine, non-electronic copy of the Bill Broderick letter of 23 Jan 2002 that granted a mostly free license (as long as credit given and Caldera's name not used in vain) for 32V, V7, and predecessors? Certainly there are electronic copies around; it existed (perhaps still exists) as a PDF file on Caldera's web site. I have a hardcopy in my own files, next to the old SCO Ancient UNIX Source Code agreement for which I paid hard cash (as we used to call the US dollar). But if there is an original somewhere, that might carry more weight. Is Bill Broderick still in an appropriately high position at Caldera or SCO? Norman Wilson Toronto ON

21 years, 12 months

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[pups] Temporary loss of minnie.tuhs.org

by Warren Toomey

All, At 7am on Saturday 31st May (local time), the machine which runs this mailing list will be temporarily shut down as major power and UPS alterations are done in the machine room. I am informed that this should only take 12 hours, but you know what computers and such are like. Therefore, you should expect that this mailing list will be unavailable over the weekend of the 31st May / 1st June. Normal services will be resumed shortly :-) Cheers, Warren

21 years, 12 months

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Temporary loss of minnie.tuhs.org

by Warren Toomey

All, At 7am on Saturday 31st May (local time), the machine which runs this mailing list will be temporarily shut down as major power and UPS alterations are done in the machine room. I am informed that this should only take 12 hours, but you know what computers and such are like. Therefore, you should expect that this mailing list will be unavailable over the weekend of the 31st May / 1st June. Normal services will be resumed shortly :-) Cheers, Warren

21 years, 12 months

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Re: [TUHS] V7 ls -s option

by Aharon Robbins

> From: Dennis Ritchie <dmr(a)plan9.bell-labs.com> > To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: [TUHS] (no subject) > Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:10:30 -0400 > > > The V7 ls(1) man page says that the -s option, which prints total > >blocks, includes any indirect blocks. > > >However, the V7 struct stat didn't have the st_blocks member in the > > struct stat, and the code in ls.c uses > > > long > > nblock(size) > > long size; > > { > > return((size+511)>>9); > > } > > >So, is this just a case of the man page being mistaken? > > Yes, it looks like a manual bug. Retrieving > the true number of indirect blocks isn't possible > from the 7th edition stat. I'm not sure when (or by > whom) the st_blocks member was added. Thanks for confirming this. In fact, the V7 calculation is only an approximation in another sense; a file with large holes could generate too large a result. System III doesn't have st_nblocks either. > > While I'm at it, the V7 ls -a option only adds . and .. to the > > list; apparently all other dot files were printed by default. > > When did ls change such that -a applied to all dot files? > > UCB or USL did this (I'm sure which first). > Both tended to use more . files. > > Dennis As already pointed out, earlier Research code only checked the first character for being '.'; I later looked at the V6 ls.c. The System III ls.c is essentially the V7 one, but with comments added, and -l printing both owner and group, with -g and -o to turn off group or owner from -l. Also, support for FIFOs. The nblock() calculation is considerably more complicated, and would seem to actually get the number of indirect blocks. At first glance, it looks though like a file with holes would still confuse it. Nothing like engaging in Software Archeology... :-) Thanks, Arnold

21 years, 12 months

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question about V7 ls(1) vs. sys/stat.h and ls.c

by Kirk McKusick

The st_blocks field was first added to the stat structure in 4.2BSD (4.1b really) as part of the overhaul to add the new filesystem. I added it because the variable filesystem blocksize made it difficult to compute the amount of storage dedicated to a file. Kirk McKusick

21 years, 12 months

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Re: [TUHS] sco v. ibm

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

T. M. Sommers: If [Broderick] was [SCO's or Caldera's] agent, then it doesn't matter what they claim to recognize now; they are bound by his statement. Assuming it can be proven that the statement was officially made, which is why I ask after properly signed hardcopy rather than the PDF file we have all seen. Probably there are documents hidden away in SCO's files--there must have been some paper trail leading to Broderick's letter--but that is likely to be harder to track down from outside. I don't doubt Broderick really wrote that letter, nor that he was authorized to make the statement. But the problem before us isn't truth, it's proof. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

21 years, 12 months

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The nameless horror of dotfiles [was (no subject)]

by Dennis Ritchie

The omniscient Norman seems to have nailed me: > Judging by the manuals, Research did it first. In every manual from > 1/e to 6/e, the entry for ls(I) has this description for the -a option: > list all entries; usually those beginning with "." are suppressed I suspect that in v7 (where .thing was indeed listed by default) we decided that since .thing was a real file in the directory it was better to list it instead of hiding it by default. (Seeing . and .. seemed seldom interesting, however). I was solely (and much more recently) responsible for the lack of subject header in my earlier reply. Dennis

22 years

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(no subject)

by Dennis Ritchie

> The V7 ls(1) man page says that the -s option, which prints total >blocks, includes any indirect blocks. >However, the V7 struct stat didn't have the st_blocks member in the > struct stat, and the code in ls.c uses > long > nblock(size) > long size; > { > return((size+511)>>9); > } >So, is this just a case of the man page being mistaken? Yes, it looks like a manual bug. Retrieving the true number of indirect blocks isn't possible from the 7th edition stat. I'm not sure when (or by whom) the st_blocks member was added. > While I'm at it, the V7 ls -a option only adds . and .. to the > list; apparently all other dot files were printed by default. > When did ls change such that -a applied to all dot files? UCB or USL did this (I'm sure which first). Both tended to use more . files. Dennis

22 years

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The nameless horror of dotfiles [was (no subject)]

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Dennis Ritchie, on ls discarding all names beginning with .: UCB or USL did this (I'm sure which first). Both tended to use more . files. Judging by the manuals, Research did it first. In every manual from 1/e to 6/e, the entry for ls(I) has this description for the -a option: list all entries; usually those beginning with "." are suppressed I always thought this was just a quick-and-dirty way to skip the . and .. entries; the sort of shortcut that was common in the good old days when everything was written in assembly language. That the USL system kept the old convention probably reflects its PWB heritage; both the latter system and that of Berkeley had already invented lots of configuration files clumsily hidden by putting . at the beginning-- more than ls had options at the time--and I guess they felt it was better to let sleeping dots lie. Incidentally, in 1/e ls(I) had a whopping five options: l, t, a, s, and d, each with the same meaning as now (except that -s is described simply as `give size in blocks for each entry' with nothing about accounting for indirect blocks or other overhead). Who says we haven't made decadence, er, progress over the years? Norman Wilson Toronto ON PS: I've lost track. Did the original Subject: line of this thread of conversation get lost because it began with a dot?

22 years

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question about V7 ls(1) vs. sys/stat.h and ls.c

by Aharon Robbins

Greetings all. The V7 ls(1) man page says that the -s option, which prints total blocks, includes any indirect blocks. However, the V7 struct stat didn't have the st_blocks member in the struct stat, and the code in ls.c uses long nblock(size) long size; { return((size+511)>>9); } So, is this just a case of the man page being mistaken? When did the struct stat acquire the st_blocks member? While I'm at it, the V7 ls -a option only adds . and .. to the list; apparently all other dot files were printed by default. When did ls change such that -a applied to all dot files? Thanks, Arnold Robbins

22 years

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Re: [TUHS] question about V7 ls(1) vs. sys/stat.h and ls.c

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Chris Palmer <chris(a)nodewarrior.org> wrote: > What's with that "511" in there? To divide by N rounding up you first add N-1, then divide by N. MS

22 years

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Open Source Initiative response to SCO vs. IBM

by Aharon Robbins

A friend passed this URL on to me. I have not read it yet. Principal author is Eric Raymond. http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html Arnold

22 years

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sco v. ibm

by Phil Garcia

Hi, What do you make of the SCO (Caldera) lawsuit? Does it affect the archive in any way?

22 years

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RE: [TUHS] sco v. ibm

by Ian King

Reminds me of the old joke about the gnat buzzing around the elephant's nether end, with rape on its mind.... :-) ________________________________ From: tuhs-admin(a)minnie.tuhs.org on behalf of Phil Garcia Sent: Wed 5/21/2003 12:53 PM To: tuhs(a)tuhs.org Subject: [TUHS] sco v. ibm Hi, What do you make of the SCO (Caldera) lawsuit? Does it affect the archive in any way? _______________________________________________ TUHS mailing list TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

22 years

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[pups] Re: Concurrent Pascal, Solo OS, et al

by Al Kossow

I was given a disc image of the system for the PDP11 I'll try to dig it up for you.

22 years

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[pups] Fwd: Re: Concurrent Pascal, Solo OS, et al

by Wesley Parish

I asked Per Brinch Hansen recently about Solo and Concurrent Pascal, for use on the PDP 11 simulators, et al, and I received a reply today. This is it. I am wondering, does anyone have any clue as to where these copies of the system might be squirrelled away? How many might've seen it at their Universities? Wesley Parish ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: Concurrent Pascal, Solo OS, et al Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 00:17:33 -0400 From: Per Brinch Hansen <pbh(a)pothos.syr.edu> To: Wesley Parish <wes.parish(a)paradise.net.nz> Cc: Per Brinch Hansen <pbh(a)pothos.syr.edu> Date: 18 May 2003 To: Wesley Parish <wes.parish(a)paradise.net.nz> From: Per Brinch Hansen <pbh(a)pothos.syr.edu> Subject: Re: Concurrent Pascal, Solo OS, et al On May 4, you wrote: What I was wondering is, would it be worth asking you about the possibility of your releasing the Concurrent Pascal, Solo OS and several other such computer tools and programs, to PUPS (the PDP Unix Preservation Society)? At Caltech we prepared a distribution tape for the PDP 11/45 with the source text and portable code of the Solo system, including the Concurrent and Sequential Pascal compiler. The system reports were supplemented by implementation notes. By the spring of 1976 we had distributed the system to 75 companies and 100 universities in 21 countries. Later, other people moved the system to the Interdata 8/32, NCR 8250, Modular 1, LSI 11, IBM 370/145 and many other computers. Sad to say, I no longer have a copy of the system (and I don't know who does). Per Brinch Hansen ------------------------------------------------------- -- Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

22 years

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Looking for obscure unix information

by Apostolos Koutropoulos

Hi to all, I stumbled on your mailing list and I thought this would be a good place to pose my question. I was looking around for information about several little known (to me) unix derived Oses. AMIX (Amiga Unix) RISCiX ArchBSD Lynx Inferno Helios What I am looking for is basically what versions existed and when they were released, and also from where did they originate. For instance I know that RISCiX originated from BSD 4.4 but that is all I know. I also know that inferno grew out of the research for plan 9, but what version of plan 9 it evolved from I don¹t know. Anyone know the above info? If not any idea where I can look for further info? Thanks :)

22 years

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Re: [pups] Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX)

by David W. Talmage

>I got a "Tektronix 8560 Multi-User Software Development Unit" together >with a Tektronix 8540 in system 68k CPU emulator. The 8560 is based on I found this by Googling for "tnix single-user": http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/pups/1998-March/000027.html

22 years

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[pups] Tektronix 8560 with PDP-11/23 CPU running TNIX (UINX)

by Jochen Kunz

Hi. I got a "Tektronix 8560 Multi-User Software Development Unit" together with a Tektronix 8540 in system 68k CPU emulator. The 8560 is based on the DEC M8186 PDP-11/23 CPU module but that card is the one and only DEC part in the machine. Everything else is from Tektronix. There is a 35 MB 8" disk and a 8" floppy in the 8560 and it runs some flavor of UNIX called TNIX. I am trying to break into it currently, as I have no passwords. I can't get it to single user mode and I have no distribution media nor no stand alone tools. Has someone heared from this machine bevore? Has someone distribution media or stand alone tools? -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

22 years

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RE: [pups] Restoring volumes

by Gregg C Levine

Hello again from Gregg C Levine Yes, Ian. That's exactly what I mean. Of course I was thinking of RL02 images, rather then a RK05 image. Which one did you choose? And can you post something explaining the steps? And your response was the simpler form, which is what I wanted. David's comment was a bit obtuse, but I got it. By the way? Are you a WB fan? As in Warner Bros. Animation. I'm partial to the wisdom of B. Bunny. ------------------- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda ) Sign on the side of a transport belonging to the Rebel Alliance, "Force happens". > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian King [mailto:iking@killthewabbit.org] > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:34 AM > To: Gregg C Levine > Subject: Re: [pups] Restoring volumes > > That's where I got my RK05 image for UNIX v6, which I run on my 11/34. Is > that what you're asking, or am I being simple? -- Ian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregg C Levine" <hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net> > To: <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:35 PM > Subject: [pups] Restoring volumes > > > Hello again from Gregg C Levine > Just for the sake of an argument, has anyone actually managed to > restore a volume from the collection on the ftp server, back to an > originally sized disk pack? Or for that matter restored a system so > that it behaves as advertised under E-11? > > No, folks that machine I "have on order", has not arrived. Once again > I am searching for information for a future project. One that might be > happening sometime this week, or even later this month. > ------------------- > Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net > ------------------------------------------------------------ > "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi > "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi > (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) > (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

22 years

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Re: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Norman Wilson <norman(a)nose.cs.utoronto.ca> wrote: > This convenience was abolished in either 4.2 or 4.3 (I am > travelling right now and cannot check manuals and > sources). I don't remember the details in my head and I'm also typing this on the go, but in 4.3BSD fsck does work on the block device and then you reboot with, well, reboot, and it works. MS

22 years

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Re: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by Norman Wilson

Carl Lowenstein: Isn't this really true of Unix systems of any age, when doing fsck on a mounted root file system? Some middle-elderly BSD systems--4.1 and possibly 4.0-- managed the buffer pool in such a way that the super-block of a mounted file system was kept in the original buffer, with device and block number correctly stored in the struct buf header. Hence if fsck wrote to the block device rather than the raw one, the super-block came out right even when checking a mounted file system; in particular there was no need to reboot. This convenience was abolished in either 4.2 or 4.3 (I am travelling right now and cannot check manuals and sources). I never quite understood why, though I never looked at the source code in the later systems. The scheme found in most current systems, in which the root starts out read-only, is a better idea anyway. Norman Wilson Toronto ON (normally)

22 years

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[pups] Restoring volumes

by Gregg C Levine

Hello again from Gregg C Levine Just for the sake of an argument, has anyone actually managed to restore a volume from the collection on the ftp server, back to an originally sized disk pack? Or for that matter restored a system so that it behaves as advertised under E-11? No, folks that machine I "have on order", has not arrived. Once again I am searching for information for a future project. One that might be happening sometime this week, or even later this month. ------------------- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda ) Sign on the side of a transport belonging to the Rebel Alliance, "Force happens".

22 years

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > As already mentioned: If I add comments at the end of the lines it > cn 1 176540 344 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) > cn 2 176550 354 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) > cn 3 176560 364 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) > cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 attached > cn 2 csr 176550 vector 354 attached > cn 3 csr 176560 vector 364 attached > Sounds like a funny bug? Yes, it does. A bug in the parsing. Why it does not affect all the lines is unknown. Perhaps some trailing whitespace caused the parser to exhibit the bug. > But if I try to use /dev/ttyl1 I get a message about a unknown interrupt > and the output of /dev/ttyl1 hangs after the first character. What is the exact message? I did a "strings /unix" and could not not find a string that looked mentioned unknown or interrupt. That would seem to indicate that the device is interrupting but not at the expected vector. It is possible to use 'adb' to look at the contents of the vectors. adb -k /unix /dev/kmem 0344/o will show the contents of the 0344 vector. The value there should be equal to 'cnrint' (or cnxint - I forget which comes first). > I have a M3106 DZQ11 that I can use instead. Definitely worth trying. > The DHV is a DEC M3104: > dhv ? csr 160440 vector 310 didn't interrupt. > The DL11 card is a clone made by Sigma. Ah, ok. Thanks for the correction. I misread the initial mail item. > > 'halt' button? > [...] > Noticed that already. I am really not used to Unix stuff of that age. :) I did the the same thing - wondered why I could never get a clean file system. Then I realized what was going on. Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> > > > > 'halt' button? > > > [...] > > > > I did the the same thing - wondered why I could never get a clean > > file system. Then I realized what was going on. > > Isn't this really true of Unix systems of any age, when doing fsck > on a mounted root file system? Not really. Newer systems mount the root filesystem read-only while running fsck. After the filesystem is verified as clean then it is upgraded to read-write. Older systems such as 2BSD can't run with a read-only root filesystem that I know of. At least not easily/happily. Might be possible (the ability to upgrade a ro mount to rw is present) but it's never been a priority to look into it ;) Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by Carl Lowenstein

> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)2BSD.COM> > To: pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:43:11 -0700 (PDT) > > Hi - > > > From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > > > > 'halt' button? > > [...] > > Noticed that already. I am really not used to Unix stuff of that age. > > :) > > I did the the same thing - wondered why I could never get a clean > file system. Then I realized what was going on. Isn't this really true of Unix systems of any age, when doing fsck on a mounted root file system? carl

22 years

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[pups] About Per Brinch Hansen

by Wesley Parish

Anyone thought of asking him if he could contribute his Concurrent Pascal and Solo, etc, to PUPS? Just a thought. Welsey Parish -- Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

22 years

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > I am preparing my PDP-11/73 for my exhibition at the VCFe. I want to get > the DHV11 (M3104) and a four port DLV11J clone to work. At the moment I > get upon boot: > > autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device cn on line 38. That is not a normal message. I believe autoconfig is saying that is something wrong with line 38 of /etc/dtab > dhv ? csr 160440 vector 310 didn't interrupt. > ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached > ra 1 csr 160334 vector 764 vectorset attached > rx ? csr 177170 vector 264 skipped: No CSR. > tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached > ts 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached > cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 no address found for kl/dl-11 > What is wrong with the "cn" devices? Is 'cn 1 ...' line 38 of the /etc/dtab file? Did you compile a kernel with NKL set to 5 (1 for the console and 4 for the DLV11J)? Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > > > cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 no address found for kl/dl-11 > > Is 'cn 1 ...' line 38 of the /etc/dtab file? > Yes: > cn 1 176540 344 5 cnrint cnxint Interesting. I do not recall any particular problem getting additional DL devices recognized (the 11/93 had 7 of them). Seeing the 'no address found' error is *strange* though - that would indicate that 'autoconfig' could not find 'cnrint' or 'cnxint' in the /unix symbol table. Look at /sys/autoconfig and you can see where that message is coming from. If you do nm /unix | egrep 'cnxint|cnrint' what do you see? > NKL 4 # KL11, DL11 > The card has four ports, one of them is the console. (The M8192 CPU card > has no SLU / ROM / ...) Ah, ok. My 11/73 has a SLU/ROM card and the console is on that. I also have a DHV installed (alas, the system is powered down now so I can not check for more information). > But I would prefere to get the DHV11 working. It seams that this device > is more suitable for multi user operation. Yes, it's a little better. Not as nice as a DHQ-11 though (which can run in DHU or DHV modes - with DHU mode having much better silo handling). I forget the exact error you were getting on the DHV but if it was 'no interrupt' then it might be that the DHV clone is not behaving exactly like a DEC DHV In /sys/autoconfig/dhvauto.c here is how the probing attempts to force an interrupt: dhvprobe(addr,vector) struct dhvdevice *addr; int vector; { if ( grab ( &(addr->dhvcsr) ) & DHV_CS_MCLR ) DELAY(35000L); if ( grab ( &(addr->dhvcsr) ) & (DHV_CS_MCLR|DHV_CS_DFAIL) ) return ( 0 ); stuff ( DHV_CS_RI | DHV_CS_RIE, &(addr->dhvcsr) ); DELAY(3500L); stuff ( 0, &(addr->dhvcsr) ); return(ACP_IFINTR); } Either 3500 microseconds (very approximately of course) is too short of a wait _or_ the method of trying to generate an interrupt is not correct. You can try changing 'ACP_IFINTR' to 'ACP_EXISTS' which tells autoconf to not care if the device interrupted or not. > ** Last Mounted on / > ** Root file system > ** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes > ** Phase 2 - Check Pathnames > ** Phase 3 - Check Connectivity > ** Phase 4 - Check Reference Counts > ** Phase 5 - Check Free List > BLK(S) MISSING > SALVAGE? y > > ** Phase 6 - Salvage Free List > 1364 files, 11625 used, 2430 free > > ***** FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED ***** > > But on the next reboot I get the same when running fsck. Any hints? How are you rebooting? With the "reboot" command or by using the 'halt' button? You do not want to use the 'reboot' command because that does a "sync" which flushes the disc cache (and superblock) back out to disc - that overwrites the work that 'fsck' did. A few 'missing' blocks is not a serious problem though and can be ignored. Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi! > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > > cn 1 176540 344 5 cnrint cnxint > > to the end of this line? Perhaps the autoconfig parser becomes confused > if there aren't any. I don't think that's the problem in this case - the error that is being printed out: cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 no address found for kl/dl-11 comes from what appears to be a missing entry (or an entry that autoconfig can't find) in the /unix kernel symbol table. One way, I think, this can happen is when booting an alternate kernel (/genunix instead of /unix). THe only suggestion I have at this point is to turn on debugging in autoconfig. To do this go into /sys/autoconfig/main.c and add a line that forces 'debug = 1;', then install (after saving the original ;)) autoconfig into /etc and reboot. Hopefully useful info about what autoconfig is doing will be printed. > Mine is at least correctly identified by autoconfig, though I've never > attached a terminal to it to see whether the ports actually do anything. > The post that's vanished included my dhv line from /etc/dtab but, except > for the goofy CSR I used for some reason that I cannot now remember, it If I find the time I'll power up the 11/73 and see what it says but I've had a DHV11 on the system for years (it's how I got the RTS/CTS flow control working). My suspicion is that the DHV clone isn't behaving 100% like a DEC DHV card. > > BTW: Never play with the SMD cables when the machine is running. Now I > > get: > > Is the disk write-inhibited? Doing a 'reboot' (which performs a sync(2) call) will overwrite what fsck has done - when the message about "reboot" comes out you should use the front panel or ODT to simply halt the cpu and then start the boot process cold. Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years

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[pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble

by Jochen Kunz

Hi. I am preparing my PDP-11/73 for my exhibition at the VCFe. I wane get the DHV11 (M3104) and a four port DLV11J colne to work. At the moment I get upon boot: autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device cn on line 38. dhv ? csr 160440 vector 310 didn't interrupt. ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached ra 1 csr 160334 vector 764 vectorset attached rx ? csr 177170 vector 264 skipped: No CSR. tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached ts 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 no address found for kl/dl-11 Extract from /etc/dtab: # grep '^[a-zA-Z]' /etc/dtab dhv ? 160440 310 5 dhvrint dhvxint # dhv terminal mux ra ? 172150 154 5 raintr # uda50, rqdx1/2/3 ra ? 160334 764 5 raintr # uda50, rqdx1/2/3 rx ? 177170 264 5 rxintr # rx01/02 tms ? 174500 260 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver ts ? 172520 224 5 tsintr # ts11 driver cn 1 176540 344 5 cnrint cnxint cn 2 176550 354 5 cnrint cnxint cn 3 176560 364 5 cnrint cnxint What is wrong with the "cn" devices? I checked the CSRs of the DHV11 and the DLV11J cards with the "show qbus" command on a MicroVAX 4000-200 to be sure that the CSRs are where I am expecting them: >>>sh q Scan of Qbus I/O Space -20000120 (760440) = 009D DHQ11/DHV11/CXA16/CXB16/CXY08 -20000122 (760442) = F081 -20000124 (760444) = 0000 -20000126 (760446) = 0000 -20000128 (760450) = 0000 -2000012A (760452) = 0000 -2000012C (760454) = 0000 -2000012E (760456) = 0000 -20001940 (774500) = 0000 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE -20001942 (774502) = 0BC0 -20001D60 (776540) = 0000 DLV11J -20001D62 (776542) = 0000 -20001D64 (776544) = 0080 -20001D66 (776546) = 0000 -20001D68 (776550) = 0000 DLV11J -20001D6A (776552) = 0000 -20001D6C (776554) = 0080 -20001D6E (776556) = 0000 -20001D70 (776560) = 0000 DLV11J -20001D72 (776562) = 0000 -20001D74 (776564) = 0080 -20001D76 (776566) = 0000 -20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR -20001F70 (777560) = 0000 -20001F72 (777562) = 0000 -20001F74 (777564) = 0080 -20001F76 (777566) = 0000 -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

22 years

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cross reference tool for pre-K&R C

by nao

Hi, I really enjoy hacking ancient unix rather seriously and want a cross reference tools for them. Since some of them are written in pre-K&R C, modern tools are not very useful. Is there any cross reference tool for pre-K&R C source codes? BTW, early UNIX assembler document has bugs which state '>>' and '<<' are shift operators despite that really '\>' and '\<' are. I wonder where these bugs came from... Cheers, - nao

22 years, 1 month

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Re: [TUHS] 2.11BSD license question: porting software to NetBSD

by Igor Sobrado

> On Friday, 18 April 2003 at 18:56:16 +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote: > > > > I asked to the people of the NetBSD Foundation about the possibility > > of adding those commands to the base system (as a part of the tarball > > with documentation tools) but they think that it is not possible, > > as a consequence of a licensing issue. I supposed that all the > > software provided in the 2.11BSD was under a BSD license, but it > > looks like 2.11BSD is a closed source release. > > That's not correct any more. Who were you talking to at the NetBSD > project? Hi Greg. I am worried with possible licensing issues with AT&T's Documenter's Workbench (DWB). In fact, AT&T retained the copyright and distribution rights on those parts of the UNIX documentation tools they developed some years ago. That is the reason we have [nt]roff, but not diction (diction(1), explain(1), suggest(1)) and style(1). Last days, Perry E. Metzger observed that 2.11BSD was closed source: "And it is closed source. Sorry. We aren't allowed to use code that did not originate in V7/32V. If Caldera did not specifically release the sources, we cannot use them. If your claim is that diction and style were not in 32V, then we have no rights to them." Well, in a previous email Perry observed that: "I appreciate all this and I thank you for doing the work, but please do your work against a version we have clear ability to use." In short, he does not says that "we cannot add diction(1) and style(1) to NetBSD" only that *license terms are NOT clear*. What I do *not* want to do, is asking for adding a piece of code that will report problems to the NetBSD Foundation. They are doing a superb job, and I do not want to start a legal problem adding some tools whose license is not clear. On the other hand, Steven M. Schultz observed that "Not 100% - much of it is covered by the BSD license and the Caldera/SCO/whatever license(s)". I believe that diction(1) and style(1) are covered by a different license agreement, but I did not find it in the source code. > > Can someone, please, helping me on this matter? What should I do? > > Should I just drop this software? > > We discussed the Caldera release of "ancient UNIX" on this mailing > list recently. Caldera (now SCO again) was supposed to make some kind > of official statement, but it's taking its time. Well, there are some operating systems under Caldera's agreement (a BSD-style license), including v7 and 32V, but looks like 2.11BSD is *not* under those terms. In fact, it is not available through Caldera, it is in tuhs, not covered by Caldera's license agreement. (at least I think that it is right...) I am not a lawyer, only a Physics grad student working on a Ph. D. on CS. I have no idea about the legal status of 2.11BSD or, to be more precise, about the status of diction(1) and style(1). Cheers, Igor. -- Igor Sobrado, UK34436 - sobrado(a)acm.org

22 years, 1 month

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2.11BSD license question: porting software to NetBSD

by Igor Sobrado

Hello. I have just finished porting diction(1) and style(1) from 2.11BSD to the NetBSD operating system. Those utilities are a part of the AT&T Documenter's Workbench (DWB), and are not available on the v7 and 32V UNIX releases. I asked to the people of the NetBSD Foundation about the possibility of adding those commands to the base system (as a part of the tarball with documentation tools) but they think that it is not possible, as a consequence of a licensing issue. I supposed that all the software provided in the 2.11BSD was under a BSD license, but it looks like 2.11BSD is a closed source release. Can someone, please, helping me on this matter? What should I do? Should I just drop this software? Cheers, Igor. -- Igor Sobrado, UK34436 - sobrado(a)acm.org

22 years, 1 month

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Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #145 - 2 msgs

by Larry McVoy

> I am fairly sure that 4.2BSD had manual pages for mmap, but it didn't > work. Right. Joy left Berkeley and joined Sun and the work got done at Sun. I'm pretty sure that SunOS 4.0 was the first release with mmap working as it was described. I was at Sun for the 4.1 release; 4.0 was the new VM system, and it wasn't "new" like "we changed some stuff", it was new as in everything was rewritten. The 4.0 VM system had segmap, read/write were implemented with segmap in the kernel (you did a read, the kernel mapped page, started a bcopy and would fault on itself if the page wasn't there or had no TLB entry). Etc. I have postscript of the papers on that, still very good reading if someone wants them. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm

22 years, 1 month

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Did SunOS 3 have mmap(2)?

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, I just received a query: did SunOS 3 have a working mmap(2)? My vague memory says no, but I don't have access to a 3.5 box any more to find out. Can anybody help out here? Warren

22 years, 1 month

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[pups] ISO9660 filesystem on 2.11BSD

by David Evans

Has anyone tried to do such a thing? Would anybody care? -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

22 years, 1 month

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Re: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)

by Carl Lowenstein

> From: asbesto <asbesto(a)freaknet.org> > To: tuhs(a)tuhs.org > Subject: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :) > > well, i think now we have a more complete knowledge of the REAL > problem ! > > the M7891 board (128K x 18 bit MOS MEMORY MODULE) have the D2 red=20 > led light turned ON when turning on the CPU ! > > this means PARITY ERROR on this board :( > > checking the board we found 2 problems: > > 1) a 74LS175 chip named E15 on our schematic diagram, that seem > phisically BROKEN on an edge (there is a fessure on the plastic > DIP package). i can't change it now because i don't have a=20 > soldering station here to do a nice job, but looking the chip i > think it may work... While you probably _do_ have a real hardware problem with the broken IC, I think that the red Parity Error light on first turn-on is normal behavior. The MOS memory comes up with random values, and about half of them will have the wrong parity. Some software routine must turn off parity error detection and write a known data pattern (all 0's) to each memory location. I don't remember whether this is something that is done by the boot ROM of an 11/34. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst(a)ucsd.edu

22 years, 1 month

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RE: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)

by Gooijen H

"asbesto" wrote: > 1) a 74LS175 chip named E15 on our schematic diagram, that seem > phisically BROKEN on an edge (there is a fessure on the plastic > DIP package). i can't change it now because i don't have a > soldering station here to do a nice job, but looking the chip i > think it may work... I never remove IC's in *one* go. The chances that you damage the multi-layer board beyond repair are real. This is what I do. I use a dremel tool (small motor with sharp rotating blade) to cut the pins of the IC one by one. Don't use a cutting tool to cut the pins because the side force might push the remainder of the pin through the solder joint thus damaging the board. After you have cut all the pins the IC just falls of the board. Now, you can use a fine hot soldering iron and remove the pins one by one use a pair of squeezers. good luck with your repairs, - Henk.

22 years, 1 month

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PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)

by asbesto

well, some months ago i asked for help booting a pdp11/34 here at freaknet medialab :) well, i think now we have a more complete knowledge of the REAL problem ! the M7891 board (128K x 18 bit MOS MEMORY MODULE) have the D2 red led light turned ON when turning on the CPU ! this means PARITY ERROR on this board :( checking the board we found 2 problems: 1) a 74LS175 chip named E15 on our schematic diagram, that seem phisically BROKEN on an edge (there is a fessure on the plastic DIP package). i can't change it now because i don't have a soldering station here to do a nice job, but looking the chip i think it may work... 2) a 5 Kohm 4-resistor bridge named R22 on our diagram, that is phisically BROKEN. this bridge give +5V on signals named DATA OC L, CSR OC L, OC L and X ADD OC L. i changed it with a 4.7Kohm 4-resistor bridge, without any result. (maybe the 74ls175 is really broken :) an other ipothesys may be: some electrolitic capacitor in short circuit. we had this problem on a decwriter III ! :) the real problem is: if we aren't able to repair the M7891 board, where can we find a "new" one ??? can somebody help us ? it's a shame for us to have our pdp11/34 offline :(( any help is appreciated ! *:) -- [asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on keyservers] [ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ] [http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto :::::: http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet]

22 years, 1 month

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[pups] VAX support

by robin.birch＠royalmail.com

Hi All, I know that this isn't pdp related but the people are here who know :-). Is there an available unix that supports lance and dssi on a VAX 3400 and/or is there anyone working on this. Regards Robin This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressee only. If you are not the named recipient, you must not use, disclose, reproduce, copy or distribute the contents of this communication. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system.

22 years, 1 month

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Franz Lisp platforms

by L.J. Buitinck

while trying to build Franz Lisp (from 4.3 BSD) on VAX/ULTRIX 4.5, I noticed its peculiar list of supported platforms: use: lispconf type where type is one of vax_4_1 vax_4_1a vax_4_1c vax_4_2 vax_4_3 vax_eunice_vms sun_4_1c sun_unisoft dual_unisoft pixel_unisoft sun_4_2beta lisa_unisys3 mc500_2_0 I was especially surprised by "lisa_unisys3". is that Unisoft SysIII for the Apple Lisa?! and does anyone know what {dual,pixel}_unisoft and mc500_2_0 mean? -- If I travelled to the end of the rainbow As Dame Fortune did intend, Murphy would be there to tell me The pot's at the other end. Lars Buitinck

22 years, 1 month

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Re: [pups] booting RT11 from alternate controller

by Jonathan Engdahl

I'll have to try this with the RQDX3 as primary and the SCSI as secondary. Maybe BSD is smart enough to do it right. In any case, I have the source for the BSD boot code, and I can fix it. It will be a pain, though, having to type the alternate address every time I boot BSD. I'd probably have to restructure /dev and /etc/fstab also, and who knows what else. Maybe it would be easier to change the jumpers if I needed to run RT11. I don't use RT11 that much, but I'd like to have it available. -- Jonathan Engdahl http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl "The things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> To: "Jonathan Engdahl" <j.r.engdahl(a)adelphia.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:58 AM Subject: RE: [pups] booting RT11 from alternate controller Jonathan, > I have a PDP-11/53 with a SCSI controller at 172150, and an > RQDX3 at 172144. This works for the ROM, but most PDP-11 operating systems will refuse to boot from anything but the "default" controller of any kind, meaning, an MSCP controller it will only accept at 172150. The OS itself can deal with them, but not so for the boot-level code that loads them. I have tried similar setups with an 11/83 using an ESDI disk controller at MSCP #0 (doing KDA50 emu), and an RQDX3 at MSCP #1 (just for the floppies, indeed) and that didnt work either, with RT11, MicroRSX and Ultrix. --f

22 years, 1 month

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[pups] booting RT11 from alternate controller

by Jonathan Engdahl

I have a PDP-11/53 with a SCSI controller at 172150, and an RQDX3 at 172144. There are a couple SCSI drives on the primary controller, and an RX50 on the RQDX3. Everything seems to work OK, and I can read the floppies, except I cannot boot RT11 from a floppy. From the 11/53 boot ROM you can say B/A DU0 It will then ask for the address of the alternate controller. It reads from the floppy, then it reads from both hard drives, then hangs. What I hunch is happening is that the boot ROM reads the RT11 boot sector from the floppy, but then the boot sector tries to continue booting from the hard drives, which isn't going to work, because they are 2.11BSD formatted. The objective is to have some non-RQDX3 hard drive controller as the primary, and a secondary RQDX3 for the floppy, and to be able to boot UNIX from the hard drive, and RT11 from the floopy. Any ideas on how to accomplish this? -- Jonathan Engdahl http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl "The things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18

22 years, 1 month

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[pups] V7 setjmp/longjmp

by Dennis Ritchie

Helbig remarked (quoting Davidson): > >Yes, you are right - V7 restores the register variables to a state which > >is consistent with the other auto variables in the function - ie the value > >which they had when longjmp was called. > > > >The caveats about not relying on register variables applied to V6. > Nope, even in V6, register variables are restored to the values they had > when reset(III) was called! (reset() is the name of longjmp() in V6). > By the way, reset() is much smaller than longjmp() but provides the same > functionality. > I wonder why longjmp() was rewritten. Setjmp/longjmp do more (setjmp returns different values for the initial call and the longjmp-invoked one). But the thing that would become more important is that the PDP-11 compiler's calling sequence was especially friendly toward restoring register values-- it just worked automatically. Other machines and compilers were not so friendly. This is why ANSI and ISO had to put in special rules about promising to preserve only things marked volatile. We've been through this before. Dennis

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] V7 setjmp/longjmp

by Wolfgang Helbig

>X-Unix-From: michael_davidson(a)pacbell.net Tue Dec 31 17:04:50 2002 >Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:02:37 -0800 >From: Michael Davidson <michael_davidson(a)pacbell.net> >User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 >X-Accept-Language: en-us >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Wolfgang Helbig <helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE> >CC: pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org >Subject: Re: [pups] V7 setjmp/longjmp >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Wolfgang Helbig wrote: >>You can trust register variables when setjmp() returns the second time. Then >>the registers are restored to the values they had when the "next" function was >>called, that is the "values as of the time longjmp() was called" (quoted from >>longjmp(3)'s man page. Thus any variable behaves the same, regardless of its >>storage class. >> >Yes, you are right - V7 restores the register variables to a state which >is consistent with the other auto variables in the function - ie the value >which they had when longjmp was called. > >The caveats about not relying on register variables applied to V6. Nope, even in V6, register variables are restored to the values they had when reset(III) was called! (reset() is the name of longjmp() in V6). By the way, reset() is much smaller than longjmp() but provides the same functionality. I wonder why longjmp() was rewritten. Wolfgang.

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Totally off topic question

by Peter Turnbull

On Mar 21, 19:31, Ian King wrote: > Yup. I used to do that, but had an older version of sendmail and got > 'co-opted' as a relay host for a spammer. :-( I've seen a few attempts to do that. I should point out that even if you only run sendmail for the benefit of machines on your own network, and even if you use a dialup (rather than always-on) connection, you want the ant-relay stuff. I see regular attempts to connect to port 25 on my hub, even though it's behind a dynamic IP address on an ISDN dialup (I also see regular attempts to connect to the telnet, ssh, and ftp ports, and others, maybe 2-3 times a week. If you run a common operating system, don't assume that a dynamic IP address, or NAT, or using a dialup, gives any worthwhile protection). > FWIW: rather than update sendmail and hack another .cf, I bought a > Windows-based mail server Nowadays, it's easy to use m4 to set up sendmail.cf for the common sorts of home use -- just define the settings for masquerading and smarthost, and press go (more or less). The only time you need to hack it a bit is if you want something unusual, like some mail going to the local machine and some forwarded to other machines on your network, or using UUCP. > Instead, I use my free time to hack 2.11BSD and UNIX v6! :-) I have to admit that sounds like a better use of the time :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Totally off topic question

by Peter Turnbull

On Mar 21, 23:04, Robin Birch wrote: > I am probably going to get a broadband connection to wherever I end up. > I will then network all of the various boxes together and connect > everything (including the PDP) to the Internet. I intend having one box > set up as a server [...] > In case the above seems stupid the idea is to take all email through a > server, weed out all incoming rubbish, and route it to various > individual's (partner, daughter etc.) PCs. This is exactly what I do, though I have the sending and receiving sides of the email equation separate. I have one machine that acts as a mail hub. It runs sendmail with a custom sendmail.cf which is capable of delivering internal mail either to /var/mail, which is then exported to other machines, or via UUCP or SMTP to other machines. It also batches up outgoing mail and sends it to my ISP's mail server ("Smart Host") at specific times of the day (mine's not an always-on connection). All the other machines either use UUCP, or use sendmail with the "nullclient" .cf file, to send mail to my hub machine. No reason why the hub couldn't run a POP3 server for the benefit of Windoze PCs as well, but I've never felt the need :-) If you go that route, I'd suggest you think about IMAP rather than POP, though. As far as getting mail from my ISP, I use fetchmail -- but if you do this, be sure that your ISP puts something in the headers that makes it easy for fetchmail to tell which user it's really for (don't forget about mailing lists), and that you have a catchall rule to handle mail you didn't think of. If you have an always-on connection, you could have your DNS MX record(s) set to point to your hub machine, and needn't use fetchmail. However, if you do that, be sure to set up sendmail with anti-relaying and all the proper security patches. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] Totally off topic question

by Robin Birch

Hi Everyone, Sorry for asking this here but you are probably the best people to ask. I'm in the process of packing up my house to redecorate it and move to another. As a result my 11/83 has been packed up and I won't get to play for some time :-(. However, the question - I am probably going to get a broadband connection to wherever I end up. I will then network all of the various boxes together and connect everything (including the PDP) to the Internet. I intend having one box set up as a server for FTP, email and so on and everything else using that. I will probably use a Linux box for this. Can I get a pop3 system for it that will talk to sendmail (only because sendmail is the only mail system that I have used) or can I get a reasonable pop3 server for Linux. Anybody else has ideas on how I should do this then hints tips etc. gratefully received. In case the above seems stupid the idea is to take all email through a server, weed out all incoming rubbish, and route it to various individual's (partner, daughter etc.) PCs. Cheers Robin -- Robin Birch

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> > I tried changing the partition type with disklabel -e -r but, when I exited > vi, I got an error message saying that the type I'd provided was not valid. > Viewing the label (with disklabel -r) showed the fstype set to 'unknown'. "unknown" or "unused" On my virtual 11 I see disklabel report: 8 partitions: # size offset fstype [fsize bsize] a: 16720 0 2.11BSD 1024 1024 # (Cyl. 0 - 39) b: 8360 16720 swap # (Cyl. 40 - 59) c: 340670 0 unused 1024 1024 # (Cyl. 0 - 814) h: 315590 25080 2.11BSD 1024 1024 # (Cyl. 60 - 814) > Just for grins, I tried modifying the drive type, too - no success there, > either. The disklabel utility isn't having any of that; again it claims > 'unknown'. Ah, that says something is corrupt somewhere. If you look at /usr/include/sys/disklabel.h you'll see the table of filesystem types: static char *fstypenames[] = { "unused", "swap", "Version 6", "Version 7", "System V", "2.11BSD", "Eighth Edition", "4.2BSD", "MSDOS", "4.4LFS", "unknown", "HPFS", "ISO9660", 0 }; So for 'unknown' to appear there would need to be a 10 in the type field instead of a 5 (for "2.11BSD"). 'unused' is a 0 obviously. Try booting up a standalone disklabel and see what it says without a kernel getting involved. Steve

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> > Now I know I'm missing something. I tried following your advice, using the > disklabel utility running under the old kernel. From what you say below, I Which part of the advice? ;) The part of the advice that might be most useful was to put a copy of the standalone disklabel program in / and boot it - NOT run the usermode version while the system is running. cd /sys/pdpstand make cp disklabel / then reboot the system and at the ':' prompt enter ra(0,0)disklabel there are things that can be done with the standalone version that are either impractical under a kernel (because the 'a'/root partition is open/busy) or because the standalone version has no safety checks. > assume you are referring to the 'fstype' parameter on the partition, not the > 'type' parameter for the drive, correct? The drive type is MSCP, and the > partition fstype is 2.11BSD. 'fstype' is what I had in mind. a: 16720 0 2.11BSD 1024 1024 # (Cyl. 0 - 39) > I tried changing the partition type with disklabel -e -r but, when I exited > vi, I got an error message saying that the type I'd provided was not valid. > Viewing the label (with disklabel -r) showed the fstype set to 'unknown'. Now I am confused. 2.11BSD is correct - but then it's "unknown" and that would cause the 'iinit' panic that started this thread of discussion. Down the path of logic that results in a 'iinit' panic and the 'no fs' there's a check for the filesystem type and "unknown" was the likely cause (or at least that was the hope). If the standalone disklabel program says it's "2.11BSD" then there's something else going on - the next likely thought is that 'rootdev' or related entity isn't set to the device that is the actual root filesystem. > Just for grins, I tried modifying the drive type, too - no success there, > either. The disklabel utility isn't having any of that; again it claims > 'unknown'. That's not used for anything important. > Oh well, while I'm waiting for your reply I can rebuild my kernel with a > higher MAXUSERS parameter. :-) ~12 is a good number - not much need for more than that as a rule. Steve

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> > Well, given the excellent advice I received here (especially from Steven > Schultz), I got the networking kernel to build after moving a few modules > around between overlays. It was indeed the overage on DATA/BSS that was Hmmm, if it was an overage on the DATA/BSS (which is hard to do unless you overdeclare MAXUSERS or the number of tty devices) then shuffling overlays wouldn't have made any difference since overlays affect only code and not data allocation. > Now, when I respond to the boot prompt with 'ra(0,0)unix', I'm getting the > following: > > <banner for the image, date, time, etc.> > panic: iinit > no fs on 5/0 That says the kernel was not able to mount the root filesystem. The earlier messages about the kernel build date, etc appear because the kernel prints those directly from internal strings (and the kernel is loaded by /boot who doesn't "mount" the root filesystem). > I'm booting from an RD54, and checking both 'ls -l /dev/ra*' and > /dev/MAKEDEV, it sure looks to me that the major device number for this > drive is 5 - am I missing anything yet? That's what I called out as the You're not missing anything so far ;) Are there other devices/controllers on the system? That should work (works on my system) but I'm trying to get a handle on what might be confusing the kernel. > for ra.) Note that this is exactly the same device as I have been using all > along with the GENERIC kernel, so I know there's really a filesystem there. That's the puzzling part - why the old one works but the new one doesn't. > (FWIW, I didn't define an autoboot device.) In ufs_subr.c, I see where this > message is apparently generated in the getfs() function, but I can't really mountfs() calls getfs(). mountfs() is called out of main() in init_main.c The panic "iinit" is in init_main.c after mountfs() has returned NULL The times I have seen the 'iinit' panic it's meant that the disklabel was either missing _or_ that the root ('a') partition was not of type FS_V71K. I SUPPOSE it's far fetched, but possible, that the old kernel predates the check for the filesystem type, thus it ignores the type of partition 'a' and assumes it's a valid filesystem. If you have a copy of the standalone 'disklabel' program installed in / you can boot that with ra(0,0)disklabel and examine the label that way. Or boot the tape and load the utility that way. Using the old kernel and running disklabel would work too. If the 'type' for the 'a' partition is not 'FS_V71K' that's the problem. > PS: I'm really glad I followed the advice to copy my old (GENERIC) kernel > image to 'oldunix' - so I can still boot! Ah, glad to hear that the advice came in handy. The other thing that comes in useful is a bootable Zip disk (complete 2BSD system fits on a Zip disk if one has a SCSI adaptor around) - came in handy when I corrupted/broke 'init' ... Steve

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] Missing Base Kit Sistem Area Disk 1 in pro/venix 2.0 distribution (by DEC)

by Franco Tassone

Hi all, I have a Pro/venix 2.0 distribution (the one by DEC) and was going to reinstall it on my PRO/350. Unfortunatelly I discoveded that the Base Kit Sistem Area Disk 1 was bad. Anyone in this list can help me in supplying this floppy image ? Thanks in advance. Franco.

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] Re: Condition of 2BSD

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - I received a mail item from Johnny Billquist but the fine folks at Update.UU.SE don't seem to recognize that networks can be subdivided and that _my_ portion has never sent or relayed spam Hope Johnny doesn't mind the reply going here instead. ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- bqt(a)update.uu.se (reason: 553 5.3.0 <bqt(a)update.uu.se>... SMTP from 64.32.150.18 blocked by Update due to spam sent/relayed from this network;contact postmaster at Update.UU.SE for details) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to tempo.update.uu.se.: >>> RCPT To:<bqt(a)update.uu.se> <<< 553 5.3.0 <bqt(a)update.uu.se>... SMTP from 64.32.150.18 blocked by Update due to spam sent/relayed from this network;contact postmaster at Update.UU.SE for details 550 5.1.1 bqt(a)update.uu.se... User unknown Hi! > I have a small question, which I hope you can clarify for me. I'm in a > little argument with a person involved in NetBSD. Ummm, I'm not a lawyer of course... > He claims that NetBSD is the oldest free BSD still alive, which I reacted > to since it was my belief that 2BSD now is free. But is 2BSD free? That I don't know. It is more free than it was a long time ago but > This have resulted in the claim that Berkley is the one that is > restricting 2BSD, which was news to me. Is this in any way correct? The > > * Copyright (c) 1986 Regents of the University of California. > * All rights reserved. The Berkeley software License Agreement > * specifies the terms and conditions for redistribution. That was the earlier version of the BSD license - when you had to have a ATT/USL/BellLabs license in order to obtain BSD at all. I am not sure I have a copy of the original UCB license but I think part of it involved having a ATT/USL license. The 'BSD' part of the UCB license permitted free sharing of the UCB portions of the system. The questionable parts involved the original ATT/USL code. If the current owners say that the original (non-UCB) portions are free then that means the entire system is free. > I believed that this was/is more or less the same as the current BSD > license (except that it still have the clause that any software > incorporating code from BSD must say so). At a later time the BSD license agreement added words about redistributing the code with or without modification as long as credit was given. > But appearantly this other guy is claiming that Berkley hasn't let 2BSD > free at all. I'm not sure UCB even knows what 2BSD is any more. > Can you clarify this for me, please? :-) Does the current state of the Caldera/SCO/whatever license override any existing licenses? THAT I do not know. If that is the case then I would say that 2BSD is indeed free, on the other hand if people are still legally constrained by the earlier license then 2BSD is not totally free. Earlier versions of NetBSD would not be free either because they contain "encumbered code" from the era when a ATT/USL license was required. I think it unlikely that anyone is going to send the 'software police' out to kick down a person's door because they're running 2BSD - sounds like that era is over at last. That's free enough for most people I think. Steve

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> > Are the UMRs allocated and set up statically? The clist and buffer cache UMRs are initialized at system boot time. > (I haven't looked inside 2BSD for a while now, and can't remember much of > the internals anymore.) And I haven't been around a UNIBUS system for a long time and the memory of having to deal with UMRs has faded. > How many UMRs does the system use? 8 for buffer cache, you might expect > one or two DH11s, that would require a few more, ethernet takes another > few, but it seems there shouldn't be such a shortage. There are only 31 total - so a few allocated here, a few allocated there could result in not having enough. > What did I miss? Swapping. The kernel has to always be able to get UMRs to be able to swap out a process. The memory is fuzzy but I think the kernel reserved 7 as to be able to swap 56KB at a time of a process but it could get by with less. One UMR is 'reserved' by the hardware to cover the "I/O Page". The clist takes up 1 UMR for DMA terminal devices. Ethernet of course takes a UMR or two. At one time a couple of the ethernet drivers (DEUNA) were a bit braindamaged and allocated more UMRs than they needed - I fixed that though. MSCP and TMSCP devices need UMRs to map their command and response rings. The initial MSCP driver was definitely suboptimal in that regard - again, something I tended to (the problem showed up when more than 1 controller was present in a system). Those UMRs are permanently allocated at boot time by the drivers when they initialize. Tape drivers need to have UMRs (although I don't know of too many folks with the old TE16 drives around on a UNIBUS system) available. It started adding up and on a system with several types of devices each of which wanted to reserve a couple UMRs the available pool for dynamic use (by tapes and swapping) was sometimes too small. Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > > OK. From what I recall (that turned-off machine again...) the entire > discussion on tuning MAXUSERS and friends is based on allocation of UMRs. > Might be a good idea to slip in a note about what to do when you don't have It is less a matter of MAXUSERS than it is of NBUF. NBUF sets the number of disc cache buffers. MAXUSERS affects the size of the proc table, file table, and other tables which are in the permanent (not mapped in/out) portion of the kernel's address space but does not affect the disc buffer cache which is the entity requiring UMRs on a UNIBUS system. The buffer cache must be entirely mapped by UMRs - so if you have a 32KB buffer the kernel will reserve 4 UMRs on a UNIBUS system. Realistically a 64KB buffer cache is about the maximum a UNIBUS system can have because that takes 8 of the UMRs. With the old (thankfully no longer in use, etc) 3Com ethernet boards you had to disable 4 UMRs so the system could access the memory in the card - that made for a very tight fit. The other constraint, even for Qbus systems, is the D space requirement. The 1KB portion of the disc buffer is "external" to the kernel (is mapped in/out as needed) but there is a header structure which is part of the kernel's permanent address space. Each buffer header is 24 bytes so even without UMRs around it's not feasible to have a 200KB cache because that'd use 4800 bytes of kernel D space (which is always on the edge of being overflowed it seems). On a 11/73 I've used a 100KB buffer cache but when I was using 11/44s and /70s the max was 64KB. Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD "make unix" aborts Error 141

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: norman(a)nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson) > 0141 (octal) is 'a. 141 decimal is 0215 octal, i.e. carriage return with > parity. And I remembered that (correctly as it turns out) without looking at ascii(7) <g> > What seems more likely is that 141 decimal is 0200 + 13 decimal. If a > simple value returned by wait, that means SIGPIPE + core image, which > seems unlikely. If an exit status as displayed by the shell, it just It's, if I recall, being displayed by 'make'. There's no coredump so the interpretation of 0141 is that of an exit status. It's been a while since I've looked into the problem - it was quite annoying to run the sequence (that was causing make to cease) manually and not have it happen the same way. a 'shell' > means SIGPIPE (128 + signal number). Or is signal 13 different in 2.11 > than in V7? (That seems even less likely.) Ah, ok - that makes sense too. No, SIGPIPE is the same as it's always been since it was first defined as 13 > SIGPIPE doesn't seem entirely unreasonable as an accident that could > happen if something goes wrong in the assembly-language-code-tweaking > part of the kernel build. But something is causing the assembler to exit prematurely and break the pipe in the first place. SIGPIPE happens, of course, when a writer process writes to a pipe where the receiving/reading process has exited. 'as' is exiting prematurely - that can be determined by looking at the partially created (or empty) .s file that gets left behind. > Of course if it's a random value handed to sys exit, all rules are off. What might be needed is a decent (or existent ;)) syscall tracing capability. That combined with the capability to "coredump a non-0 exit process) might be enough to track down what's causing 'as' to depart the scene prematurely. Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Carl Lowenstein

> From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)2BSD.COM> > Cc: pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:08:16 -0500 > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2003 at 09:51:10AM -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > Howdy - > > > > > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > > > This came in handy for me too when I went the route of messed up MAXUSERS > > > screwage. > > > > That'll do it too ;) > > > > Fortunately /vmunix & /oldvmunix is a familiar procedure from back in > my PMAX device driver hacking days. > > > > On another note, were there any SCSI adapters that made use of the BA23/ > > > BA123 RD disk control buttons? Would be nifty to swap in a new ra0 by > > > simply taking a disk offline/online. > > > > Hmmm, those buttons/cabling are for RD/MSCP devices - not sure if it's > > possible to use them with SCSI devices. > > > > I was thinking of a SCSI adapter that plugged into the bulkhead somehow. > This is plainly rediculous, but a nifty idea nontheless. You could put your SCSI drive into one of those pull-out "mobile adapter" things. But you probably should not pull it out without idling the SCSI bus first. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst(a)ucsd.edu

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > I recall cranking MAXUSERS up a little, though I can't remember to Good Idea because the default is only suitable for single user mode and building a new/custom kernel. Quite a few kernel tables are sized based on 'maxusers' - in particular the coremap and swapmap tables (which track the fragments of memory and swap space) will be exhausted easily if you bring up a network'd kernel and start up the various daemons. > what and my PDP-11 is turned off at the monent. A clarification of > how the whole Unibus map register business effects Qbus-based systems > would be nice. It really doesn't - not having UMRs to deal with is a Nice Thing about the Qbus ;) The kernel (and the standalone utilities of course) need to know if they're on a U or Q-bus system but once a Q system is found then the UMR handling is bypassed. Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD "make unix" aborts Error 141

by Carl Lowenstein

> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)2BSD.COM> > To: pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD "make unix" aborts Error 141 > List-Archive: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/pups/> > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:46:51 -0800 (PST) > > Hi - > > > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > > Ugh. > > > > Am I naive to suggest a rewrite of as? :) > > Just a little bit <g> > > It's a thought that used to occur to me fairly often a long time > ago. I cured myself of it though after I did the rewrite into > its current form (if you think it's bad now you should have seen it > before ;)). > > The biggest problem are the SDI (Span Dependent Instructions). The > PDP-11 has 'jmp' (non conditional but no range limit) and 'br' (many > flavors of conditional branches but with a +/- 128 byte range). > The compiler generates pseudo instructions like 'jeq' and leaves it > up to the assembler to figure out if a branch will reach or if a > branch around a jump is needed. That's a PITA to handle and is > I believe the cause of much ugliness in the assembler. That, of course, is a _neat feature_ of AS. On the other hand, how much code bloat would result if AS always emitted (bne;jmp) pairs for 'jeq', etc. Maybe only generate (bne;jmp) for forward 'jeq' where the span is not yet known. I am sure there are pathological instabilities in this kind of code generation, where expanding one branch/jump instruction makes another one go out of span range. Answer: 3:1 for each unnecessary pair. But I have no idea of the statistics for real code. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst(a)ucsd.edu

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Steven M. Schultz

Howdy - > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > This came in handy for me too when I went the route of messed up MAXUSERS > screwage. That'll do it too ;) > I should track down the half-bezel so that I can mount this SCSI Zip drive I > have in my BA123. That would look so weird... It is tight on space but I can get a complete 2.11 system (with sources) and a small swap partition on a 96MB Zip disk. Not suitable really for going multi-user but as a single user mode system for fixing up /etc/init or building a kernel it's nice. Might not look too weird - different of course, who knows but what you might like the new look ;) > On another note, were there any SCSI adapters that made use of the BA23/ > BA123 RD disk control buttons? Would be nifty to swap in a new ra0 by > simply taking a disk offline/online. Hmmm, those buttons/cabling are for RD/MSCP devices - not sure if it's possible to use them with SCSI devices. Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD "make unix" aborts Error 141

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > Ugh. > > Am I naive to suggest a rewrite of as? :) Just a little bit <g> It's a thought that used to occur to me fairly often a long time ago. I cured myself of it though after I did the rewrite into its current form (if you think it's bad now you should have seen it before ;)). The biggest problem are the SDI (Span Dependent Instructions). The PDP-11 has 'jmp' (non conditional but no range limit) and 'br' (many flavors of conditional branches but with a +/- 128 byte range). The compiler generates pseudo instructions like 'jeq' and leaves it up to the assembler to figure out if a branch will reach or if a branch around a jump is needed. That's a PITA to handle and is I believe the cause of much ugliness in the assembler. So I'm fought the urge to rewrite the assembler and 'won' - I no longer feel the rewrite urges ;) Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD "make unix" aborts Error 141

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Steven M. Schultz: It's the exit status of the assembler. On _some_ modules, the assembler ('as') jumps off into the weeds and executes an 'exit' system call with a non-zero value in R0. 141 is a lower case 'a' as I recall. 0141 (octal) is 'a. 141 decimal is 0215 octal, i.e. carriage return with parity. What seems more likely is that 141 decimal is 0200 + 13 decimal. If a simple value returned by wait, that means SIGPIPE + core image, which seems unlikely. If an exit status as displayed by the shell, it just means SIGPIPE (128 + signal number). Or is signal 13 different in 2.11 than in V7? (That seems even less likely.) SIGPIPE doesn't seem entirely unreasonable as an accident that could happen if something goes wrong in the assembly-language-code-tweaking part of the kernel build. Of course if it's a random value handed to sys exit, all rules are off. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11BSD "make unix" aborts Error 141

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: "Jonathan Engdahl" <j.r.engdahl(a)adelphia.net> > I'm running essentially the CURLY 2.11BSD system with networking on a Ah, yes - the 'master reference 2.11BSD system' ('SHEMP' is a virtual pdp-11 running under P11 ;)). > PDP-11/53. When I go to rebuild unix with "make all", the build will run for > a while, then quit with "Error 141". If I type "make all" again, it keeps on Yep, I've been seeing that for years and aside from some kernel hackery to assist in the debugging I haven't done much other than to come up with a workaround. > going for a while. After several iterations of this, eventually the make > completes, and the system will boot the result. What is this "Error 141" > business? It's the exit status of the assembler. On _some_ modules, the assembler ('as') jumps off into the weeds and executes an 'exit' system call with a non-zero value in R0. 141 is a lower case 'a' as I recall. Now for the interesting part. If you do something like setenv FOOBAR abcdef and run the make the assembler won't "exit 'a". ALSO, if you run the pipeline of the failing command manually, using temp files, it won't fail. Makes it very hard to debug. > I've not looked for the cause of this yet. I'm being lazy, and hoping > someone has seen this before and can give me a quick answer, before I go I'm lazy too (I hear that being lazy is a virtue in programmers ;)) so I just pad the environment with "FOO abc" or something and the make works. The only idea I've come up with to try and track the problem down is a hack to the 'exit' logic in the kernel to create a coredump of a program that exits with 'non-zero' status. Then at least there'd be something to postmortem. An added complication is that the assembler has this nasty habit of using 'jmp' to move around rather than 'jsr' so it's hard to find out where the program was at times. A long time ago I did make a few changes to 'as' to reduce the usage of 'jmp' in an attempt to track this down but then, when even I ran the program under the debugger it never failed - a typical Heisenberg type of bug ;( Good Luck. Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] Progress on 2.11BSD kernel

by Ian King

Well, given the excellent advice I received here (especially from Steven Schultz), I got the networking kernel to build after moving a few modules around between overlays. It was indeed the overage on DATA/BSS that was killing my build. I did a 'make install' and sync'ed, then restarted. <sigh> Now, when I respond to the boot prompt with 'ra(0,0)unix', I'm getting the following: <banner for the image, date, time, etc.> panic: iinit no fs on 5/0 I'm booting from an RD54, and checking both 'ls -l /dev/ra*' and /dev/MAKEDEV, it sure looks to me that the major device number for this drive is 5 - am I missing anything yet? That's what I called out as the ROOTDEV in my config file (in sys/conf), with '5,1' as the SWAPDEV. (I snuck a peek at the CURLY config file as well, and it shows major device 5 for ra.) Note that this is exactly the same device as I have been using all along with the GENERIC kernel, so I know there's really a filesystem there. (FWIW, I didn't define an autoboot device.) In ufs_subr.c, I see where this message is apparently generated in the getfs() function, but I can't really tell from that where it's biting me. Hey, if it wasn't a challenge, it wouldn't be fun, right? Right? TIA -- Ian PS: I'm really glad I followed the advice to copy my old (GENERIC) kernel image to 'oldunix' - so I can still boot!

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2BSD build problem - unix.o not too big

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > > I don't recall seeing any overlay info when I set up my 11/73 back in > January. I even asked the dreaded overlay FAQ here! :) I was also at 431. Ok, I probably only thought about including the writeup in the documentation. I know I did write up a moderately lengthy article about dealing with the overlay setup in response to a problem someone was having. I just never went and incorporated it into the setup/installatino documentation ;( One thing, obvious now that I think of it, I forgot to mention last night is that "too big for type 431" can also happen if the D space total is too large. If 'MAXUSERS' is set too high for example then more than 48KB of D space will be needed and the linker will complain. Look at the sum of the DATA and BSS segments (it might be necessary to sum up the .o files individually) - if it's pushing 48KB then that's the problem. Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [TUHS] SCO & Caldera?

by Christian Groessler

Hi, On 03/12/2003 10:18:33 AM ZE10B "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" wrote: > >On Wednesday, 12 March 2003 at 9:27:13 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: >> >> So the new license specifically prohibits System III, whereas the >> Ancient UNIX license implicitly permitted System III. > >Heh. So we have something to show for our $100 after all :-) Is System III somewhere in the archive for us $100 license owners? regards, chris

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [TUHS] SCO & Caldera?

by Warren Toomey

On Tue, Mar 18, 2003 at 03:31:55PM -0800, Andru Luvisi wrote: > I don't have the $100 license, but I did get one of the click-through > licenses. Then I assume you would be safe to download SysIII from the SCO/Caldera page, as long as the license covers that. Warren

22 years, 2 months

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SysIII from SCO/Caldera

by Warren Toomey

8-) Looks like Caldera are quite happy for you to obtain SysIII without signing any license agreement. http://www2.caldera.com/offers/ancient001/sysIII/ This is just a FYI. You would have to consider your legal position if you did decide to download it. Warren

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [TUHS] Russian Ancient UNIX stuff in the Archive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Sven Mascheck <sven.mascheck(a)student.uni-ulm.de> wrote: > Then the following might be an option, /UnixArchive/Applications/Ritter_Vi/ > > "This is basically ex/vi 3.7, 6/7/85, from the 2.11BSD distribution" > "A larger addition is the ability to handle ISO character sets." > > (recent development continued on <http://ex-vi.berlios.de/>) Where can I get the early versions of this effort? http://ex-vi.berlios.de/Changes lists at the very bottom: : Release 31/05/00 : * String extraction using mkstr and xstr is not longer be done. : * An ANSI C preprocessor may be used. : * Changes of symbol names due to collisions on newer systems. : * Fixed a null pointer reference in ex_tty.c. : * Included the 2.11BSD termcap in a subdirectory. Ex could use any : termcap library, however, that does not use malloc(). : * Support of eight bit characters excluding the range 0200 to 0237 is : enabled with -DISO8859_1. It does not include the regular expression code, : but otherwise works well in practice with the ISO-8859-1 character set. And all the newer stuff up to late 2002 is porting to "modern UNIX". But I don't want "modern UNIX", I'm running the original UNIX in its virgin form, I just want the 8-bit fix. The only files downloadable from ex-vi.berlios.de are 2002 releases and in the UNIX Archive Applications/Ritter_Vi contains only a tiny README file pointing to http://ex-vi.berlios.de/. Where are the old 2000 versions? MS

22 years, 2 months

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Russian Ancient UNIX stuff in the Archive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Hi there, I remember seeing in the Unix Archive a few years ago (back when the $100 licenses just came out and it was called PUPS Archive) some Russian Ancient UNIX stuff, some things contributed to the UNIX community by the early Russian UNIX users (on Soviet PDP-11s). However, I am now looking for it and cannot find it. Would anyone have a pointer? I am trying to russify my flagship UNIX (4.3BSD-Quasijarus) and I'm adding/ fixing 8-bit support in various parts of the system, and I got stuck on ex/vi. The sucker just won't handle 8-bit chars. Since my job is to maintain Ancient UNIX (my flavor thereof) rather than replace it, replacing the original ex/vi with one of the modern reimplementations is not an option. I need to massage 8-bit support into the existing original Berkeley ex/vi with as few changes as possible. A friend of mine told me that Back in The Days the first UNIX users in the then USSR were running patched (russified) 2.xBSD on Soviet PDP-11s and had KOI-8 for Russian. Since the flagship editor on <any>BSD is ex/vi, this makes me think that those early Russian users used it and thus their patches accomplished just what I need. And so I'm looking for those patches. TIA for any help, MS

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2BSD build problem - unix.o not too big

by Steven M. Schultz

> From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> > I'm building a 2.11BSD kernel on my 11/73 (so I can include the networking > code and put my machine on the LAN!), and I'm seeing the error "too big for > type 431". Through the wonders of Google, I saw your discussion of this > error and followed your advice (from 1996!). However, when I ask 'size I'd have, up to now, sworn that the overlay setup was in the documentation (one of the appendices) but it could well be that it's still off in a file somewhere in the mess I call my filesystem ;) > unix.o', I get a size comfortably within the limits for base - 50112, well > below the 57344 you cite. None of the overlays exceeds 8192, and the 'total > text' figure is well below your example, too. FWIW, I did a 'naive build' Do you have any 0 length overlays? There can't be any gaps in the overlay structure. For example, this is legal: overlays: 8128,7552,8000,7296,8192,7424,5824,6784,3520 but this is not: overlays: 8128,7552,8000,7296,8192,0,5824,6784,3520 > first, copying GENERIC and changing a few parameters; after seeing the error > 'text segment too big' I went through the config file with a little more > thought and eliminated drivers I clearly didn't need (I don't have RL01/02s, You might need to go thru the Makefile too. Good idea to eliminate drivers you don't have (save their D-space requirements) but that can create empty overlays and that does not work. > for instance). Then I started getting this error. I did a 'make clean' > just to be sure, but still make gives me the 'too big for type 431' error. > (Yes, I RTFM on ld.) Hmmm, patch level 431 is recent enough I'd have thought to avoid a 'ld' problem (current is 444 but nothing recently has touched ld). What is the output from 'size unix.o'? Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] 2BSD build problem - unix.o not too big

by Ian King

Steven, I'm building a 2.11BSD kernel on my 11/73 (so I can include the networking code and put my machine on the LAN!), and I'm seeing the error "too big for type 431". Through the wonders of Google, I saw your discussion of this error and followed your advice (from 1996!). However, when I ask 'size unix.o', I get a size comfortably within the limits for base - 50112, well below the 57344 you cite. None of the overlays exceeds 8192, and the 'total text' figure is well below your example, too. FWIW, I did a 'naive build' first, copying GENERIC and changing a few parameters; after seeing the error 'text segment too big' I went through the config file with a little more thought and eliminated drivers I clearly didn't need (I don't have RL01/02s, for instance). Then I started getting this error. I did a 'make clean' just to be sure, but still make gives me the 'too big for type 431' error. (Yes, I RTFM on ld.) I am standing here beside myself. :-) And I am humbly soliciting suggestions.... -- Ian PS: I'm at patch level 431, per the VERSION file.

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] Re: PUPS digest, Vol 1 #148 - 1 msg

by Bill Pechter

pups-request(a)minnie.tuhs.org wrote: >Send PUPS mailing list submissions to > pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pups-request(a)minnie.tuhs.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > pups-admin(a)minnie.tuhs.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of PUPS digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Installing Venix or 2.9bsdpro on a DEC PRO350 (Franco Tassone) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Franco Tassone" <franco.tassone(a)inwind.it> >To: <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> >Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:30:08 +0100 >Subject: [pups] Installing Venix or 2.9bsdpro on a DEC PRO350 > >Hi all, > >after having downloaded both distributions from a PUPS mirror, I was trying >to install Venix or 2.9bsd modified for the PRO350. >I've created for both distributions the installations floppy using a mvaxII >with an rx50 floppy. The mvaxII actually runs netbsd, so I did a dd >if=floppy.img of=/dev/rx0a for all the floppy images of the distributions, >but when I go and try to boot the bot floppies of venix (and 2.9bsd too) on >the PRO350, they fail to boot. The drive seems to try a little then the >machine hangs, no messages on the console, except a nice capital DIGITAL, no >messages on the serial terminale connected to the printer port with the >maintenance cable. >With venix floppy instead, after failing to boot, after a litle P/OS starts >from hd. >What am I missing, what did I wrong ? >Any hint will be greatly appreciated. >P.S. I definitively want to install an ancient unix on my dec pro350..., >help me ! >... >Franco Tassone > > I think those may be teledisk images so DD probably wouldn't work. You need an IBM PC with 80 track drives, IIRC to recreate the images... It's been a long time since I looked at those images. Bill

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] Installing Venix or 2.9bsdpro on a DEC PRO350

by Franco Tassone

Hi all, after having downloaded both distributions from a PUPS mirror, I was trying to install Venix or 2.9bsd modified for the PRO350. I've created for both distributions the installations floppy using a mvaxII with an rx50 floppy. The mvaxII actually runs netbsd, so I did a dd if=floppy.img of=/dev/rx0a for all the floppy images of the distributions, but when I go and try to boot the bot floppies of venix (and 2.9bsd too) on the PRO350, they fail to boot. The drive seems to try a little then the machine hangs, no messages on the console, except a nice capital DIGITAL, no messages on the serial terminale connected to the printer port with the maintenance cable. With venix floppy instead, after failing to boot, after a litle P/OS starts from hd. What am I missing, what did I wrong ? Any hint will be greatly appreciated. P.S. I definitively want to install an ancient unix on my dec pro350..., help me ! ... Franco Tassone

22 years, 2 months

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Linux Journal article (Doc Searles) on SCO suit

by Wm. G. McGrath

Hi all, Some will be interested to read Doc Searles take on the SCO suit here: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6706 bill

22 years, 2 months

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SCO sues IBM?

by Greg 'groggy' Lehey

I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees SCO's recent legal activities with dismay. For those of you still looking for facts, take a look at the links off http://www.sco.com/scosource/, and particularly the complaint at http://www.sco.com/scosource/complaint3.06.03.html. There are a number of things there which concern me, but particularly: 85. For example, Linux is currently capable of coordinating the simultaneous performance of 4 computer processors. UNIX, on the other hand, commonly links 16 processors and can successfully link up to 32 processors for simultaneous operation. This difference in memory management performance is very significant to enterprise customers who need extremely high computing capabilities for complex tasks. The ability to accomplish this task successfully has taken AT&T, Novell and SCO at least 20 years, with access to expensive equipment for design and testing, well-trained UNIX engineers and a wealth of experience in UNIX methods and concepts. Apart from the fact that I can't see any factual evidence that System V as licensed from SCO or its predecessors had any competitive SMP scalability, the "20 years" concerns me. That could go back to the days of the Seventh Edition. Which brings me to the real point: a little over a year ago, we received a message from Dion Johnson releasing Ancient UNIX under a BSD licence. For those of you who have misplaced it, I'm attaching it again. While none of us doubt that it is genuine, SCO has no record of it on their web site, nor (as far as I know) do any of us have this in signed form. In view of SCO's aggression, I think we should contact them and ask them to at least put the statement somewhere on their web site. Comments? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

22 years, 2 months

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documment it and call it a feature

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Aharon Robbins: Sigh. This is the response on gcc and `conj.' Terms of disgust elided, since the sentiments are undoubtedly shared. This list isn't the right place for a general discussion of the matter, but I cannot resist remarking that this is one of the best arguments I have ever seen in support of gnu control. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

22 years, 2 months

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documment it and call it a feature

by Aharon Robbins

Sigh. This is the response on gcc and `conj.' Terms of disgust elided, since the sentiments are undoubtedly shared. Arnold > Date: 11 Mar 2003 15:07:13 -0000 > To: arnold(a)skeeve.com, gcc-bugs(a)gcc.gnu.org, gcc-prs(a)gcc.gnu.org, > nobody(a)gcc.gnu.org > From: bangerth(a)dealii.org > > Synopsis: gcc 3.2.2 recognizes complex functions even without complex.h > > State-Changed-From-To: open->closed > State-Changed-By: bangerth > State-Changed-When: Tue Mar 11 15:07:12 2003 > State-Changed-Why: > This is a gnu extension. The builtin conj function is switched > off if you use -ansi or -std=c89. > > W. > > http://gcc.gnu.org/cgi-bin/gnatsweb.pl?cmd=view%20audit-trail&database=gcc&…

22 years, 2 months

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SCO & Caldera?

by Aharon Robbins

Can someone clarify for me how Caldera fits in the picture? I thought SCO sold Unix to Caldera? It was Caldera that did the BSD-ing of ancient Unix. FWIW I too paid $100 for an ancient Unix license, and I've got the System III stuff that licensees had access to. Thanks, Arnold

22 years, 2 months

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SCO sues IBM?

by Dennis Ritchie

A working link to the ancient-Unix license exists at http://shop.caldera.com/caldera/ancient.html This is a saved link; I didn't investigate how to find it currently from a Caldera or SCO site. In case anyone is interested, I retrieved some fraction of the court papers from the early 90s USL suit against BSDI and UCB. The case seems in some ways similar to this one. They are at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/bsdi/bsdisuit.html In this one, USL pulled back after an injunction was denied. By the time the 1993 ruling was issued, USL was being taken over by Novell. Dennis

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [TUHS] SCO sues IBM?

by Wesley Parish

Well, the impression I got from IBM re: AIX and Linux's relationship, was that they were going to give AIX a Linux makeover so that they could maintain an apparently unified Un*xish shop - as far as AIX and Linux _are_ Un*ces, that is! How that gets interpreted as importing Un*x trade secrets into Linux, I have no idea. I also thought IBM was going to allow some of their mainframe high availability ideas to influence Linux - not through direct porting of the code - VM/ESA is apparently written in PL/I, and I doubt that most Linux programmers would touch that with a barge-pole. And a waldo at a workplace on a planet on the other side of the galaxy. Or universe. I myself wanted to get some information on the internal structure - ie, the part that gets passed between the SFS client and the Reusable Kernel Server - of the VM/ESA Shared File System way back when, and was told in no uncertain terms, not to bother trying. I don't see SCO has much chance of doing anything except causing a bit of unwelcome disruption and - I hope - getting bought out at bargain basement prices by IBM and getting the entire Un*x source tree BSDed or LGPLed to stop all this useless nonsense at the "source". Or at the "sauce", to give it a rather appropriate spin. Wesley Parish On Tuesday 11 March 2003 12:45 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: <snip> > > I am very sure that IBM has not put any UNIX code into Linux. For one > thing, it's not their style, and in fact they keep the AIX and Linux > people very separate. Last year I wrote a clone of AIX's JFS file > system on Linux for IBM. This is the old JFS, not the JFS they > released under GPL. I was not allowed to see the AIX source code, for > exactly the reasons of the complaint. The only information I had were > the header files they distribute with the development system. > > The AIX code wouldn't have helped, anyway. Linux is not UNIX, as > anybody who's done kernel programming in both knows. I had thought > that this childish superstition about the holiness of source code > would have been stamped out at the end of the last UNIX wars. > > Greg -- Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [TUHS] compiling festoon

by Aharon Robbins

DMR remarked: > So far as I can tell from ISO/IEC 9899:1999, > the panoply of Complex macros and functions > are supposed to be enabled only after > > #include <complex.h> > > gcc looks to be overenthusiastic. > > Dennis I would agree. I plan to file a bug report about it. I built and checked the latest gcc, and even this file generates the complaint: #include <stdio.h> int conj(a) int a; { return a; } main() { printf("%d\n", conj(1)); } Sigh. Arnold

22 years, 2 months

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Why is \n 012?

by Greg 'groggy' Lehey

A thing that has puzzled me almost for ever is why the newline character in C is 012 and not 015. Does anybody have any insight? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

22 years, 2 months

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Why is \n 012?

by Dennis Ritchie

Lehey wondered, > A thing that has puzzled me almost for ever is why the newline > character in C is 012 and not 015. Does anybody have any insight? And Haerr speculated > Well, my take on this is that C was developed with UNIX, > of course, and UNIX early on decided to use a single > character rather than a two-char (CRLF) sequence for > end-of-lines... This came via Unix from Multics. My Multics Programmers' Manual (1969) says, in reference to its use of the ASCII character set: "Reference: USA Standard X3.4-1967," and describes the LF character, with code octal 012, "New Line. Move carriage to the left edge of the next line.... ASCII LF is used for this function." I believe that either this or some other version of ASCII standard blessed (or condoned) one of the interpretations of the 012 character for the new-line function. However, I haven't turned up hard evidence of this, despite several conversations with Eric Fischer, who has kept track of various versions of the standards. In the event, various of the terminals used early on did implement the NL function. E.g. the IBM 1050 and 2741 terminals (decidedly non-ASCII) had a new-line function, like a typewriter, no CR, but sometimes an "Index" character that moved the paper but not the printing element. The TTY 37 had an optional interpretation of 012 as NL. Of course, other terminals required separate CR and LF characters. The choice of a single character to separate lines still seems wise if you're using a byte-stream model. Dennis

22 years, 2 months

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Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #131 - 1 msg

by Larry McVoy

> gcc looks to be overenthusiastic. > > Dennis One for the quotes page, eh? -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm

22 years, 2 months

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compiling festoon

by Dennis Ritchie

Norman observed (about conj): > Since the problem is a new library function that appeared in > the official header files in C99, it makes sense that newer > versions of gcc object. That means that as time goes by, newer > C compilers everywhere will probably pick up the change. Any > documentation stored next to festoon.c should definitely point > out the problem and its full generality. > We'll leave aside for now the question of whether complex > conjugation really ought to be public. So far as I can tell from ISO/IEC 9899:1999, the panoply of Complex macros and functions are supposed to be enabled only after #include <complex.h> gcc looks to be overenthusiastic. Dennis

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [TUHS] compiling festoon

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Since the problem is a new library function that appeared in the official header files in C99, it makes sense that newer versions of gcc object. That means that as time goes by, newer C compilers everywhere will probably pick up the change. Any documentation stored next to festoon.c should definitely point out the problem and its full generality. We'll leave aside for now the question of whether complex conjugation really ought to be public. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

22 years, 2 months

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compiling festoon

by Aharon Robbins

Hi All. The following diff is necessary to use GCC on a linux system. (Anyone know what gcc's builtin `conj' function is? Beats me.) Warren, you might want to fix that last line in the archive version of the file. Arnold ---------------- *** fest.c.dist Wed Feb 26 23:51:49 2003 --- fest.c Thu Feb 27 14:02:55 2003 *************** *** 1223,1229 **** static char *conjlist[] = {"and", "but", "yet", "and", "and"}; X ! conj(env) E env; { X v = getxx(); --- 1223,1229 ---- static char *conjlist[] = {"and", "but", "yet", "and", "and"}; X ! conjugate(env) E env; { X v = getxx(); *************** *** 1306,1312 **** } else if (prob(2 * T)) { v->list.x[i++] = turgid(env); v->list.x[i++] = comma(env); ! v->list.x[i++] = conj(env); v->list.x[i++] = sent(env); } else if (prob(1.5 * T)) { v->list.x[i++] = lconjsub(env); --- 1306,1312 ---- } else if (prob(2 * T)) { v->list.x[i++] = turgid(env); v->list.x[i++] = comma(env); ! v->list.x[i++] = conjugate(env); v->list.x[i++] = sent(env); } else if (prob(1.5 * T)) { v->list.x[i++] = lconjsub(env); *************** *** 1327,1333 **** if (eqn && prob(.5)) { v->list.x[i++] = equation(env); v->list.x[i++] = comma(env); ! v->list.x[i++] = conj(env); } v->list.x[i++] = sent(env); } else --- 1327,1333 ---- if (eqn && prob(.5)) { v->list.x[i++] = equation(env); v->list.x[i++] = comma(env); ! v->list.x[i++] = conjugate(env); } v->list.x[i++] = sent(env); } else *************** *** 1644,1647 **** label[j++] = '"'; label[j] = '\0'; return(label); } - /GO.SYSIN DD fest.c \ No newline at end of file --- 1644,1646 ----

22 years, 2 months

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Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #128 - 1 msg

by John Chung

--- tuhs-request(a)minnie.tuhs.org wrote: > Send TUHS mailing list submissions to > tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > tuhs-request(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > tuhs-admin(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of TUHS digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: compiling festoon (Warren Toomey) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > Subject: Re: [TUHS] compiling festoon > To: Aharon Robbins <arnold(a)skeeve.com> > Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:22:49 +1000 (EST) > CC: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org > Reply-To: wkt(a)tuhs.org > > In article by Aharon Robbins: > > Hi All. > > > > The following diff is necessary to use GCC on a > linux system. > > (Anyone know what gcc's builtin `conj' function > is? Beats me.) > > > > Warren, you might want to fix that last line in > the archive version > > of the file. > > Um, it compiles fine for me on FreeBSD using gcc > version 2.95.3, > so I'd say that it's a Linux library. I'll put your > suggestion > into the README. > > Warren > > It also compiles fine with me. Using RH 7.2 with gcc 2.95. Regards, John Chung > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > > > End of TUHS Digest __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] Blinky lights, and E-11

by Gregg C Levine

Hello from Gregg C Levine In the documentation for E-11, John Wilson, describes the "blinky lights", essentially eight LEDs attached to the printer port of an IBM-PC that's running his emulator. Has anyone ever built one of those things, using either a PC board blank from John Wilson, or decided to build one on his own? For that matter, has anyone actually used it, to assist in the debugging of a program, running on his emulator? I'll probably e-mail John Wilson about this one directly, but, has anyone written a custom plug-in, that would have the printer port, pose as an I/O port for the emulator? ------------------- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

22 years, 2 months

2
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Re: [pups] CDROM drives and PDP-11s

by Carl Lowenstein

> From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> > To: "Gregg C Levine" <hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net>, <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > Subject: Re: [pups] CDROM drives and PDP-11s > Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:52:54 -0800 > > John Wilson's PUTR program might be jut the tool - http://www.dbit.com. I'm > guessing it might be ODS-2; worst case, I have an InfoServer that can read > that, and a TK-50 I could dump it to... :-) -- Ian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregg C Levine" <hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net> > To: <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 11:46 PM > Subject: [pups] CDROM drives and PDP-11s > > Hello from Gregg C Levine > Here's the problem. I have several CDs containing programs, and such > like from Tim Shoppa. Two of them say they contain portions which are > readable only by a CDROM Drive attached to a PDP-11. One of them is > split in half. Half is readable on either of the two computers here, > the other half, is in a format that's native to the PDP-11. The other > is all in that proprietary format. So, has anyone managed to get them > read to their machines? Or failing that to the appropriate simulators, > or even emulators? Any suggestions? When I look at "readme.txt" on my RT11 disk from Tim Shoppa I find the following paragraph: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The second part of the disk is seven RT-11 partitions. Each is a 65536 block RT-11 device that is accessible on a PDP-11 machine with a SCSI host adapter and a SCSI CD-ROM drive. They appear as RT-11 DU partitions 13 through 19. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The implication to me is that any of these partitions could be copied to a 32MB file on a hard drive, and then attached to the PDP11 simulator of your choice and read as an RT-11 drive. The tool I would use for copying the partition is dd(1). dd if=/mnt/cdrom bs=32M skip=13 count=1 of=dskimg This requires that you have 32MB available RAM for the dd "copy in" and 32MB available disk space for the dd "copy out". You could trade off a smaller "bs" for a more complicated calculation of the "skip". I suppose I am making the assumption that this work is being done on a Unix-like system, which seems reasonable in the PUPS context. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst(a)ucsd.edu

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11 on an 11/44

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> > Well, the fun continues. I guess it's not going to be as simple as > > When I try to build a custom kernel I get this: > > cc -O -DKERNEL -DUOFS -I. -I../h -S ../sys/kern_clock.c > /bin/ed - < SPLFIX kern_clock.s > ? > ? > ? > ? > ? > ---------------------- > And the "?" go on forever. Can't even break out of it. Have to > kill the simulation and start all over. Anybody run into this?? I have an extremely vague memory I might have seen it eons upon eons ago but I might be imaginging it. > Seems to be in the clock code. Is there something I might have Hmmm, '?' is "ed"s error indication. I wonder if the '?' is coming out of ed and not SIMH? > missed in the CONFIG file that could cause this?? All I basicly Not at this stage of the build - a config file error wouldn't allow the first few compiles to succeed and then start causing errors on kern_clock.c One thing I did notice though was the use of 'ed' - that tells me the patchlevel of the system is very low (i.e. old). 'ed' was replaced with 'sed' which sped things up a _lot_ - and that took place back around #325 in 1996. Have you tried P11 instead of SIMH? When I'm too lazy to fire up the 11/73 I use P11 to do the testing/patching and so on. It's a bit a pain to configure (really arcane configfile syntax) but it works very well - never had a problem with it. Good Luck. Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] 2.11BSD and Top

by Christopher McNabb

Does anyone know if there is a command like 'top' for 2.11 BSD? -- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Operating Systems Analyst Email: cmcnabb(a)vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W GMRS: WPSR255 ARS: N2UX Grid Sq: EM97SD

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11 on an 11/44

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

It seems to me it's time to go back to basics: Tell us what happens if you do ls -l /dev/rl2a and, if that file exists (as seems likely), od /dev/rl2a Diagnosing a problem of this sort solely by the mutterings of the mount command is a bit like trying to decide what is causing your back pain and therefore how to treat it by the tone of your voice when you say `ouch.' (Hmm, perhaps I have just invented a lucrative new paramedical discipline, on a par with chiropractic and cold-laser therapy and homeopathy and software consulting.) Norman Wilson Toronto ON

22 years, 2 months

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Re: Fw: A milestone from Australian computing history

by wtoomey＠staff.bond.edu.au

In article by Max Burnet: > From: Bob Supnik <bsupnik(a)earthlink.net> > To: Max Burnet <mburnet(a)bigpond.net.au> > > I've just finished resurrecting Richard Miller's Wollongong port of UNIX > V6 > > to the Interdata 7/32 (1976-77) - the first UNIX port in history. I hope > > to release a kit over the weekend. > > > > If you have Warren Toomey's mail address, over at PUPS, will you please > > forward this on to him as well? > > > > All the best to you and yours, > > > > /Bob Congratulations Bob!! Warren

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] 2.11 on an 11/44

by Bill Gunshannon

I am trying to put 2.11 on one of my 11/44's. I picked up the RL02/RK images from the archive. I put the RL02 images on real RL02's (Yes, some of us still have and use them!! :-) My intent was to boot this and then use it to build a system on a bigger disk and then go on from there. Here's my configuration: 11/44 CPU CIS EIS FP11 4M memory (actually 3840KB) MMU 3 RL02 disks A CDU/720-TM SCSI Controller with 4 MAXTOR 340M disks and a QIC tape Now the problem. The system boots fine. And it will mount /dev/rl1a. But it won't mount /dev/rl2a. I get "/dev/rl2a on /vol2: No such device or address". I get the same error when I try to do a disklabel. What's more, I also get this same error when I try to access any of the RA devices. I am using the GENERIC Kernel which I assume has all the devices in it. Anybody have any suggestions?? Of course, if I find that the SCSI Controller isn't going to work I have another controller and a FUJI Eagle I could use too. But I am certain I will need to get all three RL's working in order to have enough of a system to do this. Thanks in advance, bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

22 years, 2 months

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Re: [pups] 2.11 on an 11/44

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> > > I am trying to put 2.11 on one of my 11/44's. I picked up the RL02/RK > images from the archive. I put the RL02 images on real RL02's (Yes, > some of us still have and use them!! :-) My intent was to boot this RL drives were reliable (compared to RA81 and RK06/7 drives) if not exactly spacious ;) > 3 RL02 disks > A CDU/720-TM SCSI Controller with 4 MAXTOR 340M disks and a QIC tape > > Now the problem. > The system boots fine. And it will mount /dev/rl1a. But it won't mount > /dev/rl2a. I get "/dev/rl2a on /vol2: No such device or address". What rev of the kernel do you have? First line in /VERSION should have the magic number. > I get the same error when I try to do a disklabel. What's more, I also > get this same error when I try to access any of the RA devices. I am > using the GENERIC Kernel which I assume has all the devices in it. > > Anybody have any suggestions?? What I think is happening is that the system is only configured for 2 RL drives - the change from 2 to 4 happened quite late (patch #439 I think). The RA problem sounds like the MSCP driver either isn't in the kernel or wasn't probed/attached at boot time. You can see if MSCP support's present with something like 'nm -g /unix | grep _raintr" and seeing if you "040364 T _raintr" for the interrupt handler. If you do get that then check /etc/dtab for a line like: ra ? 172150 0 5 raintr # uda50, rqdx1/2/3 The '0' for the vector says for the probe/attach logic to assign a vector and tell the controller what value was used. You could put anything in there (154 or 150 I think is the assigned value for the first MSCP controller). If none of that works then I'm stumped as to why the RA drives can't be accessed. Good Luck. Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

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[pups] CDROM drives and PDP-11s

by Gregg C Levine

Hello from Gregg C Levine Here's the problem. I have several CDs containing programs, and such like from Tim Shoppa. Two of them say they contain portions which are readable only by a CDROM Drive attached to a PDP-11. One of them is split in half. Half is readable on either of the two computers here, the other half, is in a format that's native to the PDP-11. The other is all in that proprietary format. So, has anyone managed to get them read to their machines? Or failing that to the appropriate simulators, or even emulators? Any suggestions? ------------------- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

22 years, 2 months

2
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RE: [pups] 2.11 on an 11/44

by Fred N. van Kempen

Bill, kernel probably only supports one unit, _OR_ the filesystem doesnt have all device nodes (/dev/rlXXX). --f > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@cs.scranton.edu] > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:08 PM > To: pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: [pups] 2.11 on an 11/44 > > > > I am trying to put 2.11 on one of my 11/44's. I picked up the RL02/RK > images from the archive. I put the RL02 images on real RL02's (Yes, > some of us still have and use them!! :-) My intent was to boot this > and then use it to build a system on a bigger disk and then go on from > there. > > Here's my configuration: > > 11/44 CPU > CIS > EIS > FP11 > 4M memory (actually 3840KB) > MMU > > 3 RL02 disks > A CDU/720-TM SCSI Controller with 4 MAXTOR 340M disks and a QIC tape > > Now the problem. > The system boots fine. And it will mount /dev/rl1a. But it > won't mount > /dev/rl2a. I get "/dev/rl2a on /vol2: No such device or address". > I get the same error when I try to do a disklabel. What's > more, I also > get this same error when I try to access any of the RA devices. I am > using the GENERIC Kernel which I assume has all the devices in it. > > Anybody have any suggestions?? > > Of course, if I find that the SCSI Controller isn't going to work > I have another controller and a FUJI Eagle I could use too. But I > am certain I will need to get all three RL's working in order to > have enough of a system to do this. > > Thanks in advance, > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. > Three wolves > bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> > > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups >

22 years, 2 months

2
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Status of, and licensing of the so called "Ancient UNIX" products

by Gregg C Levine

Hello again from Gregg C Levine I know I asked this question early on, and I remember, and have the original answer filed someplace.... But that was about a year ago. Since then I had heard a rumor that the current Copyright Owner of the "Ancient UNIX" products had in fact re-released the products under the exact same license that both Minix, and BSD use. In fact they could called a freely releasable product. Can someone on this list confirm this? On a different list, for a different emulator, to which that I belong, we there, are having a discussion regarding the status of these products. I agreed with a correspondent that the BSD ones, such as 2.11, and 2.9 were in fact freely available, pending a response that is. I am suggesting there, that someone should investigate porting either V5, or V6, or even V7 to that platform. And someone naturally is making that complaint. Someone else is also claiming that Amdahl did just that, and sold it under the name UTS. But as you might guess, it is not freely available. ------------------- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

22 years, 2 months

2
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Festoon

by Dennis Ritchie

I have the version of festoon, as enhanced by Nils-Peter Nelson, and as Norman Wilson said, mainly and originally done by Ron Hardin. When the Usenet interchange referred to happened, I asked Ron whether he wanted to release it, and the response was > fine with me > npn's version is at /home/rhh/coma/festoon/fest.c > with pics and tbls > i've lost the original Incidentally, Hardin worked for Bell Labs, though at the Columbus location also occupied by Western Electric, and until fairly recently was a consultant for our own and nearby groups. The first Google pages for "hardin sloane" yields a bunch of references to his joint work with the well-known mathematician N. J. A. Sloane. Binary, but not source, was with research 8th edition, and may have escaped otherwise. I'll make the source available to scholars if there's interest. It even compiles on Plan 9 (with ape). Dennis

22 years, 2 months

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AT&T Package Design (fwd)

by Warren Toomey

----- Forwarded message from Lange, David ----- From: "Lange, David" <Extern.David.Lange(a)gedas.com> Subject: AT&T Package Design Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:25:18 -0500 Just wondering who actually designed the AT&T UNIX package utility. I have to admit the documentation of this utility is rather sparse in term of examples of scripting problems and handling the I/O. Did internal AT&T documentation have any more information or did it merely consist of the source? I'm interested in creating patches and dependencies between packages. Any information or insight would be welcome. Regards. D. Lange ----- End of forwarded message from Lange, David -----

22 years, 2 months

1
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[pups] DHV11 on BSD2.9

by Christos Papachristou

The driver is for a DIVA COMP V controller. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Warren Toomey" <wkt(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > To: "Christos Papachristou" <chpap(a)ics.forth.gr> > Cc: <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 5:45 AM > Subject: Re: [pups] DHV11 on BSD2.9 > > > > In article by Christos Papachristou: > > > I have read in a message by Steve Schultz that there are 2.9BSD drivers > for > > > the DHV11-A around. Can I still find them? > > > > How about: > > > > ./net/sys/dev/dvhp.c in PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.9BSD/usr.tar.gz > > > > P.S zgrepping lists/full_filelist.gz in the Archive is very useful! > > > > Warren > > _______________________________________________ > > PUPS mailing list > > PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups >

22 years, 2 months

1
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[pups] (no subject)

by Christos Papachristou

A few questions from a newbie: I have installed 2.9BSD on a microPDP11/73 with an RD52, using the MSCP version of Jonathan Engdahl. After startup the kernel indicates 160kb of memory .I am not familiar with such an old unix to find out the details but I understand it as 256k minus the kernel. The memory is M8067-LF i.e. 512k Qbus. Does this mean that the system can't see the rest of it and that I have configure/recompile the kernel? The system seems anyway to run fine. I haven't seen an operational PDP with UNIX before this, so I can't judge its speed. When in single user mode it seems to me that it runs "fast". However upon entering multi user mode the speed drops dramaticaly. I have not yet compiled in the 8 port multiplexer (DHV11-A), so only the console is functional and thus no gettys are loaded. So ,why is there such a change in speed? Does the multiuser mode just rise the nice value of the console tasks? Some information on the system. It is a KDJ11-B (M8190 -no suffix) i.e. an 11/84. So, the label on the system says microPDP11/73 (in an BA23 enclosure) the cpu is an 11/84 (if the FPU socket is the DIP-40 slot then it is unused), and the 2.11BSD second stage boot (version from vtserver) I have tried indicates 11/83. The memory is after the CPU and is Qbus (M867-LF). If I have understood what I have read in the list, this must be a mixed system that could use PMI memory, but just uses Qbus?? What exactly is my system? . Moreover the MSCP controller (M8639 YP i.e. RQDX1) the serial port multiplexer(M3104 i.e. DHV11-A) and the memory are Qbus while the cpu board is indicated as Unibus in the field guide. Can these two bus type s be mixed? (If yes , i would be tempted to abuse the dead VAX11/780 in the basement. Can this be done?). Anyway, I thought that the best choice of a UNIX for it since it only has an RD52 woulbe 2.9 BSD with MSCP support. Was this a good guess?

22 years, 2 months

3
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[pups] E-11 and 2.9BSD

by Gregg C Levine

Hello from Gregg C Levine Okay, here goes: I have the current version of E-11 booting correctly on my Windows based, (Currently!), backup box. I have booted the 2.9BSD image found in the boot images directory from the FTP server. Does any one have any suggestions as to how to restore an entire system to an E-11 based setup? I have a bunch of empties that were created by John Wilson for his emulator. By the way, Warren your instructions for using the version that's on the FTP server worked with this one. ------------------- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

22 years, 2 months

1
0
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[pups] Success!

by Christopher McNabb

Well, here are the results of my weekends "hacking": --------------------------- $ uname -a 2.11BSD pdp11.4mcnabb.net 2.11BSD 2.11 BSD UNIX #3: Fri Feb 21 21:00:58 PST 2003 root@:/usr/src/sys/PDP1183 pdp11 $ df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/ra0a 10078 3009 7069 30% / /dev/ra0c 10078 2 10076 0% /tmp /dev/ra0d 90718 40963 49755 45% /usr /dev/ra0e 38206 29414 8792 77% /users $ sysctl hw hw.machine = pdp11 hw.model = 83 hw.ncpu = 1 hw.byteorder = 3412 hw.physmem = 2097152 hw.usermem = 0 hw.pagesize = 1024 $ dmesg Feb 25 12:02 ... <5>ra0: Ver 2 mod 3 ra0: RD54 size=311200 attaching qe0 csr 174440 qe0: DEC DEQNA addr 08:00:2b:07:b7:53 attaching lo0 phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1727488 user mem = 307200 ----------------------------------------------- The machine is an 11/83 with 2 megs of ram, DEQNA, single RD54, TSV05, TK50, and 3 DHV11s. Now it looks like all I have left to do is install 400 odd patches. -- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Operating Systems Analyst Email: cmcnabb(a)vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W GMRS: WPSR255 ARS: N2UX Grid Sq: EM97SD

22 years, 2 months

4
3
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Festoon

by Tim Bradshaw

Does anyone remember this program (probably /usr/games/festoon) and in which Unixes it was distributed? I think it must have existed in at least some BSDs, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't in the ordinary 4.3 distribution. --tim

22 years, 2 months

3
2
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Re: [TUHS] Festoon

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Ron Hardin, who worked at Western Electric in Columbus (I think) at the time, confirms that he is the author: Festoon was mine, chiefly written one Saturday with a tragically flawed copy of Lester's _Introductory Transformational Grammar of English_ bought that morning on a $1 table at Woolworth on my knee. The tragic flaw was that there are severe lexical constraints on language, which is why there are so many made-up words in festoon, to avoid them. The introduction of awful phrases came in reaction to writer's workbench from Lorinda Cherry, which had a real mine of them; and phrases from my boss, S D Hester, who was a wretched writer. People contributed on noticing that. It was greatly helped by troff (``The _pay_ people to write this crap?'' is a typical reaction. Apparently it was not out of the question for Western Electric.) Norman Wilson Toronto ON On the internet, nobody can tell you're whether you're on the internet.

22 years, 2 months

1
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RE: [pups] Success!

by Fred N. van Kempen

Chris writes: > Well, here are the results of my weekends "hacking": Yay! It lives! Good work, dude! --fred

22 years, 2 months

1
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Re: [pups] Success!

by Steven M. Schultz

> From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > > Now it looks like all I have left to do is install 400 odd patches. > > If somebody goes through this pain, any chance of making a new source kit? Most of the kits I've seen out there are around #430 or so - that only leaves a dozen or so patches that need to be applied. > Though I guess some of the patches are not necessarily desirable in all > circumstances... By and large they are not only desirable but necessary/mandatory. There are very few 'frivolous' ("gee, this looks like fun") patches in the batch. Trying to "pick and choose" which parts of which patches to apply might be doable in the short term but there _will_ come the day when a bug is encountered or a feature desired that was fixed or added as one of the parts/patches that was left out. Best to get the pain over _once_ and be done with it ;) Cheers, Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

1
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Re: [pups] Success!

by Steven M. Schultz

> From: Christopher McNabb <cmcnabb(a)vt.edu> > $ dmesg > > Feb 25 12:02 > ... > <5>ra0: Ver 2 mod 3 > ra0: RD54 size=311200 > attaching qe0 csr 174440 > qe0: DEC DEQNA addr 08:00:2b:07:b7:53 > attaching lo0 > > phys mem = 2097152 > avail mem = 1727488 > user mem = 307200 Congratulations! > Now it looks like all I have left to do is install 400 odd patches. Actually you only need to install the ones _after_ the one listed in /VERSION. Look at the first line of /VERSION, it should look something like this: Current Patch Level: 444 then all you need are the ones between your current version and 444 (which is the latest). Be sure you have the complete system (all the sources, and include files, etc) installed and read/follow the directions (which are quite extensive) included with each patch. SOME patches can be "batched" (if a couple patches in sequence are updating the kernel then you don't need to rebuild the kernel after each patch, etc). Good Luck! Steven Schultz

22 years, 2 months

1
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LoC now involved with saving digital history

by Wm. G. McGrath

Howdy all, Is it possible that the Unix Archive might be able to get a little funding or assistance from the Library of Congress? This recent story in the Washington Post suggests that there is now a lot of money available in theory at least. I wonder if we would qualify for funding? bill Plan Approved to Save U.S. Digital History - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10278-2003Feb14.html?referre… The Library of Congress announced the next step in the effort to preserve that history: congressional approval of its plan for the National Digital Information Infrastructure and Preservation Program.

22 years, 2 months

4
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[pups] Re: PDP11 - RQDX1 standalone format utility? --> XXDP

by Jonathan Engdahl

I documented the procedure to extract a program from XXDP and put a header on it so that you can boot it from VTserver or a UNIX disk. It has been a long time since I did this to ZRQCH0, so I practiced on the program that I think Christos needs (ZRQBC1) and sent it to him. There's a lot I don't know about the a.out header, so if someone can improve my method, let me know. http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/xxdp.htm#hackXXDP "Teach a man to fish..." -- Jonathan Engdahl http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl "The things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christos Papachristou" <chpap(a)ics.forth.gr> To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 4:57 AM Subject: PDP11 - RQDX1 standalone format utility? > I would like to do a bad sector scan on a RD52 connected to a RQDX1 > controller (The machine is a pdp11/73 without OS) prior to installing > BSD2.11.Is there a standalone program like zrqch0(standalone version of > zrqc from the xxdp package - only for RQDX3) that can be downloaded > directly to the pdp via vtserver and recognizes the RQDX1 , i.e. a version > of zrqb or something similar?

22 years, 2 months

4
11
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[pups] 211BSD and TSV05 - Boy, Do I feel stupid

by Christopher McNabb

On Sat, 2003-02-22 at 22:04, Christopher McNabb wrote: > I have a TS05 tape drive and TSV05 controller. The TS11 driver for > 211BSD seems to be close to what I need, but not exactly. I can > forward, reverse, offline, and run status commands using 'mt', but any > attempt to read or write data results in a hard error: > ---- Well, this problem was fixed by cleaning the heads. In the words of the immortal Homer Simpson, "Doh!" -- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Operating Systems Analyst Email: cmcnabb(a)vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W GMRS: WPSR255 ARS: N2UX Grid Sq: EM97SD

22 years, 2 months

2
1
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RE: [pups] Re: PDP11 - RQDX1 standalone format utility? --> XXDP

by Fred N. van Kempen

Erzatz-11 V3.1 runs fine on Win2K and XP, please get that from the site. If you cant reach it, contact me offlist and I will send it to you. --f > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Engdahl [mailto:j.r.engdahl@adelphia.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 6:16 PM > To: Gregg C Levine; pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [pups] Re: PDP11 - RQDX1 standalone format utility? --> > XXDP > > > I fixed the link. > > E11 is a bit of a problem. I'm running E11 3.0 demo. I have > to run it on a > machine that still has Windows ME. All the other machines run > XP now, and > E11 doesn't seem to work under XP. I tried to get to > www.dbit.com to see if > there's a fix, but the site seems to be gone. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl > > "The things which are seen are temporary, > but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregg C Levine" <hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net> > To: "'Jonathan Engdahl'" <j.r.engdahl(a)adelphia.net>; > <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 1:22 AM > Subject: RE: [pups] Re: PDP11 - RQDX1 standalone format > utility? --> XXDP > > > > Hello again from Gregg C Levine > > I've looked at your web pages on the subject of using XXDP to create > > that standalone format utility. And it makes sense. All of it. > > However, there's a broken link on it, regarding XXDP, and where to > > find it. Currently the link which points to the repository > at Ibiblio, > > is correct. Or even the one you're using as they both work. But the > > one that says that the manual, and notes, and the OS, are available > > at, is the broken one. It comes up to a file not found > error message. > > That guy has always had problems with his site, which is > unfortunate. > > It hasn't returned. > > > > However, what are you running E-11 under? And which version? The > > current one prefers a plain DOS environment, or even a Linux > > environment. The older ones, such as the versions stored on the site > > here, will work under DOS/Windows, even Windows 98SE, as > I've proven. > > ------------------- > > Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi > > "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi > > (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) > > (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda ) > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: pups-admin(a)minnie.tuhs.org > [mailto:pups-admin@minnie.tuhs.org] > > On > > > Behalf Of Jonathan Engdahl > > > Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 8:00 PM > > > To: cctech(a)classiccmp.org; pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > > Subject: [pups] Re: PDP11 - RQDX1 standalone format utility? --> > > XXDP > > > > > > I documented the procedure to extract a program from XXDP > and put a > > header > > > on it so that you can boot it from VTserver or a UNIX disk. It has > > been a > > > long time since I did this to ZRQCH0, so I practiced on > the program > > that I > > > think Christos needs (ZRQBC1) and sent it to him. > > > > > > There's a lot I don't know about the a.out header, so if > someone can > > improve > > > my method, let me know. > > > > > > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/xxdp.htm#hackXXDP > > > > > > > > > "Teach a man to fish..." > > > > > > -- > > > Jonathan Engdahl > > > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl > > > > > > "The things which are seen are temporary, > > > but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Christos Papachristou" <chpap(a)ics.forth.gr> > > > To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 4:57 AM > > > Subject: PDP11 - RQDX1 standalone format utility? > > > > > > > > > > I would like to do a bad sector scan on a RD52 connected to a > > RQDX1 > > > > controller (The machine is a pdp11/73 without OS) prior to > > installing > > > > BSD2.11.Is there a standalone program like zrqch0(standalone > > version of > > > > zrqc from the xxdp package - only for RQDX3) that can be > > downloaded > > > > directly to the pdp via vtserver and recognizes the > RQDX1 , i.e. a > > version > > > > of zrqb or something similar? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > PUPS mailing list > > > PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PUPS mailing list > > PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups > > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups >

22 years, 2 months

1
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[pups] 211BSD and TSV05

by Christopher McNabb

I have a TS05 tape drive and TSV05 controller. The TS11 driver for 211BSD seems to be close to what I need, but not exactly. I can forward, reverse, offline, and run status commands using 'mt', but any attempt to read or write data results in a hard error: ---- # ansitape -t ts0: hard error bn0 xs0=310<MOT,ONL,PED> xs1=20402<COR,-,UNC> xs2=100000<OPM> xs3=40<REV> ts0: hard error bn0 xs0=310<MOT,ONL,PED> xs1=20402<COR,-,UNC> xs2=100000<OPM> xs3=40<REV> ts0: hard error bn0 xs0=10310<RLL,MOT,ONL,PED> xs1=20402<COR,-,UNC> xs2=100000<OPM> xs3=40<REV> unknown record mode (n) - file 7 skipped t - 7: 0 lines (0 chars) in 0 tape blocks ---- This continues ad-nauseum until Ctrl-C is pressed. So, it looks like the TS11 driver is "almost, but not quite" good enough. Before I start attempting to re-invent the wheel, has anyone had success getting a TSV05/TS05 working under 2.11BSD? -- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Operating Systems Analyst Email: cmcnabb(a)vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W GMRS: WPSR255 ARS: N2UX Grid Sq: EM97SD

22 years, 3 months

3
2
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[pups] 211BSD and TSV05

by Christopher McNabb

I have a TS05 tape drive and TSV05 controller. The TS11 driver for 211BSD seems to be close to what I need, but not exactly. I can forward, reverse, offline, and run status commands using 'mt', but any attempt to read or write data results in a hard error: ---- # ansitape -t ts0: hard error bn0 xs0=310<MOT,ONL,PED> xs1=20402<COR,-,UNC> xs2=100000<OPM> xs3=40<REV> ts0: hard error bn0 xs0=310<MOT,ONL,PED> xs1=20402<COR,-,UNC> xs2=100000<OPM> xs3=40<REV> ts0: hard error bn0 xs0=10310<RLL,MOT,ONL,PED> xs1=20402<COR,-,UNC> xs2=100000<OPM> xs3=40<REV> unknown record mode (n) - file 7 skipped t - 7: 0 lines (0 chars) in 0 tape blocks ---- This continues ad-nauseum until Ctrl-C is pressed. So, it looks like the TS11 driver is "almost, but not quite" good enough. Before I start attempting to re-invent the wheel, has anyone had success getting a TSV05/TS05 working under 2.11BSD? -- Christopher L McNabb Operating Systems Analyst Email: cmcnabb(a)4mcnabb.net Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.1356N 80.4272N GMRS: WPSR255 ARS: N2UX Grid Sq: EM97SD

22 years, 3 months

1
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Re: [TUHS] LoC now involved with saving digital history

by Robertdkeys＠aol.com

Maybe it might be played from the angle that a US mirror could be granted funds in some manner, to complement the down under repository. Just a wild thought... Bob Keys

22 years, 3 months

1
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random(3) definition

by Peter Jeremy

Does anyone here know why the BSD random(3) is defined to return a positive int (31 bits) rather than a full 32 bits of pseudo-entropy? (This came up is a discussion comparing random(3) with arc4random(3) in another list). Peter

22 years, 3 months

2
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RE: [TUHS] LoC now involved with saving digital history

by Ian King

Oops, did that go out in HTML? Sorry, new install of Outlook.... -----Original Message----- From: Ian King Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 7:26 AM To: 'Robertdkeys(a)aol.com'; wgm(a)telus.net; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: RE: [TUHS] LoC now involved with saving digital history This sounds similar to some work with which I'm involved at the University of Washington. I'll see what I can learn.... -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: Robertdkeys(a)aol.com [mailto:Robertdkeys@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:42 PM To: wgm(a)telus.net; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: Re: [TUHS] LoC now involved with saving digital history As I am reading the details of this, it seems that they are at a planning stage, and wanting to coordinate the Library of Congress centrally with other federal and non-federal agencies and organizations to develop the "network" of libraries and repositories for these materials. It was not clear what funding was available to non-federal agencies. My expectation is that the PUPS and TUHS efforts ought to be somewhere in the overall thicket of the Library of Congress effort. We need to find out more about this legislation and potential work and funding. It sounds very interesting... Spinning the ol' propeller-headed beanie at full speed, and thinking out loud.... Bob Keys _______________________________________________ TUHS mailing list TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

22 years, 3 months

2
1
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Tim Shoppa's V6 distribution

by Gregg C Levine

Hello from Gregg C Levine Has anyone ever gotten Tim Shoppa's V6 distribution to work, under any version of Simh? Theoretically it should be possible, but I haven't a clew, as to how to do so. Any suggestions? I'll leave the networking issues alone for the moment. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "This signature owns a house on Belsavis."

22 years, 3 months

1
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RE: [TUHS] LoC now involved with saving digital history

by Ian King

This sounds similar to some work with which I'm involved at the University of Washington. I'll see what I can learn.... -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: Robertdkeys(a)aol.com [mailto:Robertdkeys@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:42 PM To: wgm(a)telus.net; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: Re: [TUHS] LoC now involved with saving digital history As I am reading the details of this, it seems that they are at a planning stage, and wanting to coordinate the Library of Congress centrally with other federal and non-federal agencies and organizations to develop the "network" of libraries and repositories for these materials. It was not clear what funding was available to non-federal agencies. My expectation is that the PUPS and TUHS efforts ought to be somewhere in the overall thicket of the Library of Congress effort. We need to find out more about this legislation and potential work and funding. It sounds very interesting... Spinning the ol' propeller-headed beanie at full speed, and thinking out loud.... Bob Keys _______________________________________________ TUHS mailing list TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

22 years, 3 months

1
0
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[pups] (no subject)

by Christos Papachristou

I would like to do a bad sector scan on a RD52 connected to a RQDX1 (The machine is a pdp11/73 without OS) prior to installing BSD2.11.Is there a standalone program like zrqch0(only for RQDX3) that can be downloaded directly to the pdp via vtserver and recognizes the RQDX1 , i.e. a version of zrqb or something similar?

22 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Re: [TUHS] LoC now involved with saving digital history

by Robertdkeys＠aol.com

As I am reading the details of this, it seems that they are at a planning stage, and wanting to coordinate the Library of Congress centrally with other federal and non-federal agencies and organizations to develop the "network" of libraries and repositories for these materials. It was not clear what funding was available to non-federal agencies. My expectation is that the PUPS and TUHS efforts ought to be somewhere in the overall thicket of the Library of Congress effort. We need to find out more about this legislation and potential work and funding. It sounds very interesting... Spinning the ol' propeller-headed beanie at full speed, and thinking out loud.... Bob Keys

22 years, 3 months

1
0
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Re: [TUHS] LoC now involved with saving digital history

by Robertdkeys＠aol.com

Wild long shot.... I used to write grants for this kind of thing. Find out more info and point me to where the granting info is and lets make a collective grunt to see if something is possible. Heck, all kinds of funds are available if you submit the right kinds of proposals. Yeah, I know, it is a pipedream, but.....(:+}}... Bob Keys (stirring the history pot, gently.....)

22 years, 3 months

1
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RE: Some questions, was Re: [pups] Test

by Fred N. van Kempen

> I recall V7 had UUCP and that some non-tcp/ip networking > implementations existed for it, Yes, various serial-networking based ones (early DECnet, X.25 and PacketNet stuff) and perhaps the multiplexer device stuff. > but I have never heard of a tcp/ip stack for V7. Does > such a thing exist? Nope, didnt fit in the address space. As far as I know, the earliest TCP/IP UNIX for PDP-11 was 2.10/2.11bsd. --f

22 years, 3 months

1
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Re: Some questions, was Re: [pups] Test

by Gregg C Levine

Hello fron Gregg C Levine Um no. I was thinking of V7, of the original UNIX. As it happens, I am still not comfortable with the earlier versions of BSD. So, I am interested in getting V7, or V6 to work via a networked environment. And yes, I have seen your file, and the read me for it. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "Oh my!" The Second Doctor's nearly favorite phrase. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andru Luvisi" <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu> To: "Gregg C Levine" <drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Some questions, was Re: [pups] Test > On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, Gregg C Levine wrote: > > Hello again from Gregg C Levine > > Here are those questions: > > 1) What is the status of networking, with regards to the boot images? > > 2) Has anyone actually managed to dump the image that's contained within the > > Soupnik collected UNIX versions to an actual disk? > > 3) Has anyone actually managed to build a kernel from that source code? > > Either native, and on a Simh setup will do. > > If you are asking about 2.11BSD, I have managed to build a kernel with > networking support which works on simh. It is at: > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Boot_Images/2.11_on_Simh/ > > It's probably not suitable for a real PDP since it only supports RA/MSCP > and ram disks, and TS tape drives. > > Andru > -- > Andru Luvisi, Programmer/Analyst > > > Quote Of The Moment: > I'm not normal. I know it. I don't care! > - Ace Of Base >

22 years, 3 months

2
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[pups] Test

by Gregg C Levine

Test! Sorry for the disturbance. Just a routine test message to confirm that the list is awake. I haven't gotten anything since sometime in the past. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "This signature wants to be playing in the snow!"

22 years, 3 months

6
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Waking the List Up

by Warren Toomey

I guess it's time to wake the list up. So far the Unix Archive has done well at collecting mostly PDP-11 stuff, but now that were in the next century, we should start working on the 1980s and 1990s. I'd like to call for volunteer curators. Each would look after a subset of the Unix Archive: add files, write README.TXT, rearrange things to be more useful. The Archive has been pretty static for quite some time now, and there are a list of things TODO, and I know some of you have things waiting which I haven't done yet. So perhaps some new blood, will kick things along. Any volunteers?

22 years, 3 months

1
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Re: Re: [TUHS] Test

by Norman Wilson

This list is most definitely low-volume. Speak up, please. We can't hear you up here under the snow. Norman Wilson In a naughtly rosewood igloo somewhere near Toronto, ON

22 years, 3 months

1
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Test

by Gregg C Levine

Test! Sorry for the disturbance, I have not seen any mail on the list, since sometime in the past. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "This signature would rather be out in the snow!"

22 years, 3 months

2
1
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[pups] Anyone got a bulkhead connector?

by Ian King

I've checked commercial vendors and eBay to no avail, so now I'll appeal to the community: I would really like to find a bulkhead connector for a DEQNA card (the part number is CK-DEQNA-KB). If anyone has one they're willing to part with, please send me email with your terms. Otherwise, I'll just have to kludge something - but I'd sure like to do it right, as my 11/73 is in pretty nice shape. :-) TIA -- Ian

22 years, 3 months

1
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Re: Another happy customer (was Re: [pups] Bootable media for 2 .11BSD)

by robin.birch＠royalmail.com

Well done, My 83 has 2 RD54s it is a nice configuration. As to your other query about the boot loader saying that it is an 83 as opposed to a 73. The response that you have had is correct AFAIK. My 83 was a 73 before I changed the processor and I had a similar conversation with Steve Schultz. If it is a quad board then the boot loader is doing as well as it can :-) Have fun Robin To: "Robin Birch" <robinb(a)ruffnready.co.uk> cc: <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> Hard Copy To: Hard Copy cc: Date: 08/02/2003 18:48 From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org>@minnie.tuhs.org Sent by: pups-admin(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: Another happy customer (was Re: [pups] Bootable media for 2.11BSD) It's amazing what happens when you follow the directions - thanks for your help, folks. I have 2.11BSD up and running on my 11/73 (booted off the disk, even), and it's currently untarring the last big chunk of /usr/src. (The docs mention that TK50s are slower than snot - believe it!) The system has two RD54s <woohoo!>, but I'm following the 'default' installation for now until I have everything running and have successfully rebuilt the kernel; then I'll probably move /usr and /tmp over to the second RD. I also need to dig into the machine a bit more - the bootloader tells me I have an 11/83, so I'm suspecting the CPU was changed at some point. For the record, I live in Seattle, and I can now produce bootable TK50s with 2.11BSD. :-) -- Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> To: "Robin Birch" <robinb(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [pups] Bootable media for 2.11BSD > Yup, that's what I get for trying to be clever. :-) I built and ran > maketape, and the 11/73 likes the resulting tape (boots). So I'm remaking > the tape with the tar's on it (per the instructions). > > I also happened to look at my work email, and saw the recent thread on this > same subject - doh! > > Maybe we should add something to the /2.11BSD distribution README with the > caveats we've learned? -- Ian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin Birch" <robinb(a)ruffnready.co.uk> > To: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> > Cc: <pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 3:20 AM > Subject: Re: [pups] Bootable media for 2.11BSD > > > > Use the maketape program in the sys/pdpstand directory. You can build > > this on most things and use it to create a bootable tape with the > > standalone system which contains all of the tools to set the system up. > > > > Cheers > > > > Robin > > > > [snip] > > > > -- > > Robin Birch > > > > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups _______________________________________________ PUPS mailing list PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

22 years, 3 months

1
0
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[pups] Bootable media for 2.11BSD

by Ian King

I think I've done enough homework and legwork to feel like I can ask the list a question now. :-) I've acquired an 11/73 and want to install 2.11BSD on it; it includes a TK50 and RX33. I also have a DECstation 5000/200 with a TK50, so my first efforts were to dd the files onto a tape. Depending on how I hacked around, I either got a "non-bootable media" error or "Error 21 - drive error". The two ways I tried to put the boot files on were per the instructions (cat mtboot mtboot boot | dd), and not per the instructions (dd mtboot, dd mtboot, dd boot). Depending on how I hacked around, I either got a "non-bootable media" error or "Error 21 - drive error" from the boot ROM monitor. With no way to troubleshoot the TK50 drive, I then tried to put at least a boot sector on a 1.2MB floppy, using rawrite on a PC; I copied mtboot + mtboot + boot to an intermediate file, then used rawrite to put that on the floppy. I got the same "Error 21". The machine also has a working RD54 containing Micro/RSX and some proprietary software for managing a parking lot. :-) I can boot to an RSX prompt (although I can't log in, having none of the passwords), so most of the machine appears to be working. While there's a stubborn side that wants to figure out how to build bootable media :-) I'd also be happy at this point to get a copy of a bootable TK50; I have blank tapes.... Either way, I hope someone can point me in the right direction. Thanks in advance -- Ian

22 years, 3 months

4
10
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[pups] DLVJ1 confusion on 2.11BSD

by David Evans

So the DLVJ1 has four serial ports. According to the info at http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardwar… they essentially appear as four separate gizmos, with independant CSRs and vectors. So should I therefore set NKL to 5 (the console plus these four) and then have appropriate entries for devices 1 through 4 in /etc/dtab? Sounds like it. My DHV11 seems to work happily, so I already have rediculously more serial ports than I need. -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

22 years, 3 months

1
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Re: Re: [TUHS] The ^ = | ?

by Norman Wilson

The earliest UNIX Programmer's Manual to describe shell pipelines is the Third Edition, February 1973. It gives a syntax quite different from the modern one: com1 > com2 > com3 > outfile meant what we would now write as com1 | com2 | com3 > outfile This original syntax was pretty cumbersome; pretty obviously it was put in as a quick hack (as were many things in those early days). Because > and < applied only to the following word, pipelined commands with arguments had to be quoted: who > "grep ken" >/tmp/kenlogins Even worse, the shell had no inherent way to tell whether the final word was a file or a program; if the last element in a pipeline was to write to standard output, you had to say so explicitly: who > "grep ken" > On the other hand the syntax was symmetric: you could also write "grep ken" < who < pipe(II) also debuted in the Third Edition. By the Fourth Edition (November 1973) there had evidently been more time to think about the syntax; the modern notation is shown, except that ^ is allowed as a synonym for |. I have long guessed that was because in those dark days of the past, some upper-case-only terminals (remember stty lcase?) offered no way to type | (and perhaps likewise {}`~) but I don't really know. Dennis? Norman Wilson Toronto ON

22 years, 3 months

5
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Re: [TUHS] The ^ = | ?

by Wolfgang Helbig

>I've been searching for some reference to the ^ symbol being the same a | in >Bourne shell. Does anyone remember seeing anything like this? I've searched >the early manpages to no avail. Look at http://www.ba-stuttgart.de/~helbig/os/v6/doc/index.html for the Unix V6 sh(I) man page. Greetings, Wolfgang

22 years, 3 months

1
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re: The ^ = | ?

by Dennis Ritchie

As Norman said, the earliest notation for pipes used an extension (or abuse) of the semantics of > and < . Warren's memory of what Salus wrote (it's on p. 52-53) is correct about the introduction of | (though I suspect that McIlroy (whom Salus quotes) is being kind to me when he said "he [Ken] couldn't bear to reveal my [Doug's] ugly syntax." Actually, I was responsible for the particular < and > syntax as implemented, although the whole idea came from much earlier on blackboard-only ideas, and the blackboard was Doug's. As to the original question: probably the ^ as an alternative to | (which does seem to be there from the start, i.e. 4th Edition) did have to do with character-set convenience on upper-case-only terminals. The TTY driver accepted \! as an escape for |, but this was somewhat of a pain. Dennis

22 years, 4 months

1
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Re: [TUHS] The ^ = | ?

by Carl Lowenstein

> From: "Lange, David" <Extern.David.Lange(a)gedas.com> > To: "'tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org'" <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > Subject: [TUHS] The ^ = | ? > > Greetings, > > I've been searching for some reference to the ^ symbol being the same a | in > Bourne shell. Does anyone remember seeing anything like this? I've searched > the early manpages to no avail. It's here in my printed copy of the 6th Edition Unix Programmer's Manual. Page entitled SH(I) Section DESCRIPTION Subsection Command lines. One or more commands separated by '|' or '^' constitute a chain of filters. . . . carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst(a)ucsd.edu

22 years, 4 months

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The ^ = | ?

by Lange, David

Greetings, I've been searching for some reference to the ^ symbol being the same a | in Bourne shell. Does anyone remember seeing anything like this? I've searched the early manpages to no avail. Regards, D.

22 years, 4 months

2
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Re: [TUHS] The ^ = | ?

by John Holden

> I've been searching for some reference to the ^ symbol being the same a | Yes, pre Bourne shell, edition 6 and earlier used ^ for piped. Also chdir insteads of the shortened 'cd'

22 years, 4 months

1
0
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[pups] FreeBSD-4.7, p11-2.9, 2.11bsd

by M. Giegerich

I'm trying to run 2.11 BSD on the p11 emulator... The 2.11 BSD boot image I'm using is 211_on_rl2 (which works on sim, but without network sup- port). Before downloading 2.11_rp_unknown.gz that seems to work for sure with p11 (at least I found enough posts hinting at that), I would like to know if anybody has successfully used the 211_on_rl2 distro to boot 2.11 BSD on p11. My results so far are p11 boots (after FIGHTING with p11conf), recognizes the 4 rl and 5 rk disks and images and gives me a @-prompt. Telnetting to the defined ports won't do :-( Any hints anybody? -- M. Giegerich, mail: migieger(a)vsnl.com, phone: +91.(0)80.5530154

22 years, 4 months

3
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Re: [pups] The infamous 2.11BSD patch archive

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: David Evans <dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca> > What's up with the 2.11BSD patch archive? I assume that the version Both it and the mirror are up and running. There are quite a few netblocks that have portscanned/spammed/whatever me here (dialups and cablemodems for the most part) and they're listed in the packet filters so if you're seeing timeouts, etc connecting that's probably the reason. > in the Unix Archive is the original release and does not have these > patches applied. The mirror to which 2bsd.com referrs is gone and I Companies play the "musical domain name" everytime they have a re-organization (and, sigh, another one is in the works as I type). What was listed was probably a name from the last reorganization and of course it's very difficult to track down all the places that an old name was used. The mirror I maintain at work is: ftp://ftp.cato.gd-ais.com (for some time yet it will also respond to 'ftp.to.gd-es.com') There may be other sites that also mirror > don't want to pound on Steve's site if I don't have to. Any Others have done that - usually it's not too bad, especially if I'm asleep at the time :) > suggestions? Once I get the files I presume I'm just supposed to feed them > through patch in sequence (with the appropriate options, of course). Sequence is important because the patches are diffs against the last current version of a file. Each patch has rather good (if I do say so myself ;)) instructions and explainations of what was changed, how to apply, what to rebuild immediately (and what can be deferred until it is convenient). Have Fun! Steven Schultz sms(a)2bsd.com

22 years, 4 months

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[pups] The infamous 2.11BSD patch archive

by David Evans

This *must* be a FAQ, but I didn't find a real answer to it anywhere. What's up with the 2.11BSD patch archive? I assume that the version in the Unix Archive is the original release and does not have these patches applied. The mirror to which 2bsd.com referrs is gone and I don't want to pound on Steve's site if I don't have to. Any suggestions? Once I get the files I presume I'm just supposed to feed them through patch in sequence (with the appropriate options, of course). -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

22 years, 4 months

1
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[pups] PDP-11 happily booted

by David Evans

Yanked a SCSI disk and the penguin could manage dding the simh image on to it. The PDP-11 booted quite happily. -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

22 years, 4 months

1
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Re: [pups] Making a TK50 2.11BSD boot tape for an 11/73

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

If all that is needed is to concatenate three files into a single tape file, with each new file aligned on a block boundary, isn't (for f in f1 f2 f3; do dd <$f conv=sync; done) >/dev/rmt0 sufficient? The only time I had to do anything like this, the target system was a MicroVAX; hence the tape had to have ISO labels, and the program to be booted a particular tape filename. I don't remember how I handled that; probably I used one of the several public-domain tape-label-writing programs. But that was a VAX; I would assume an 11/73 doesn't have so much enforced complexity in its firmware.

22 years, 4 months

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[pups] Making a TK50 2.11BSD boot tape for an 11/73

by David Evans

Howdy. I'd like to confirm that somebody has successfully made a TK50 boot tape for 2.11BSD using a TK50Z attached to some other Unix box. In my case it will likely have to be Linux, though IRIX might be doable. It *should* work, after all, but, well, you know. :) -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans(a)bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

22 years, 4 months

5
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Re: [TUHS] unsigned division in V7's C

by Wolfgang Helbig

Warren replies: >Not sure if: > >http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Bug_Fixes/Net.v7bugs/0017 > >is a bug fix for this. And Dennis replies: >Does > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/odd.html#muldiv >suffice to explain the behavior Thanks for the replies, but the bug I found is about unsigned int's and not long int's. The V7 C code simply the DIV instruction for unsigned division. The dividend is put in the low word of a register pair with the upper word cleared. When the divisor is >= 2^15, DIV interprets it as a negative integer and produces the result (N = 2^16): N - a/(N-b) instead of a/b, and a%(N-b) instead of a%b. This explains the bug I've sent yesterday. I is easily fixed, since when b >= N/2 and a < N, then a/b is either zero or one. And there is another bug when using DIV for unsigned integers: If b = 1 and a >= N/2, then a/b >= N/2, that is a signed overflow. With V7 on Bob Supniks simulator (2.10), I get 60000/1: 0, 60000%1: 60000 DIV did not change the dividend because of overflow. Again a fix is easy: With unsigned ints, don't use DIV to divide by one. In all other cases, DIV produces the correct unsigned results, if the dividend is less N, that is its high word is zero. I wonder why these bugs went unnoticed. Greetings Wolfgang

22 years, 4 months

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re: unsigned division in V7's C

by Dennis Ritchie

Helbig observed > while wondering how unsigned integer division is implemented in C > I found a bug in V7: a/b and a%b with b >= 2^15 does not give the expected > results, if a and b are unsigned int's. Does http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/odd.html#muldiv suffice to explain the behavior? Dennis

22 years, 4 months

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unsigned division in V7's C

by Wolfgang Helbig

Hi, while wondering how unsigned integer division is implemented in C I found a bug in V7: a/b and a%b with b >= 2^15 does not give the expected results, if a and b are unsigned int's. Was this bug ever noticed or even fixed? Greetings, Wolfgang Here is a program showing the bug: main() { unsigned int a, b; a = 60000; b = 40000; printf("a/b: %u, a%%b: %u\n", a/b, a%b); b = 25000; printf("a/b: %u, a%%b: %u\n", a/b, a%b); } The above program prints a/b: 65534, a%b: 8928 a/b: 2, a%b: 10000 The first line should be of course a/b: 1, a%b: 20000

22 years, 4 months

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Re: Patches to improve 6th Edition

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

A belated rejoinder to: This bug existed from (at least) the Fifth up until the Eighth editions from 1127 (BTL research). The Ninth edition had much rewrites in the kernel and the algorthim was changed at that point. You're welcome. I can't remember, though, whether I fixed it on purpose or as part of the many general cleanups and restructurings I did at that point. And I didn't do enough of it; recently I discovered a dumb problem that I probably introduced in the same cleanups, wherein the i-node allocated for a file that couldn't be created because the file system was full and the directory entry couldn't be written was left allocated but nameless ... Norman Wilson Toronto ON

22 years, 4 months

1
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Re: [pups] Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jan 6, 19:01, Wolfgang Helbig wrote: > Richard L. Hamilton searches: > >The files > > > >http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/sys/dev/rl.c > >http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/sys/conf/mkconf.c > > > >don't seem to match - mkconf.c wants to generate references to > >rlopen() and rlclose(), which don't exist in that version of rl. > >What I'm really looking for is the right version of driver(s) etc. > > It seems that a version of the rl driver that matches > mkconf, was never supplied by the bell labs. > > As a workaround delete the rl entry in cdevsw and the line > "int rlopen,..." from c.c. This will give you a block device of the rl disk, > but no raw device. Hmm... my 7th Edition distribution /usr/sys/dev/rl.c certainly *does* have rlopen() and rlclose(). If you want them, I can send rl.c and the matching mkconf.c to you, or to Warren, along with the rl1conf and rl2conf (for RL01 and RL02 disks) from /usr/sys/conf/ and any other files needed (if someone can tell me what might be required -- it's a long long time since I looked at any of this. The distribution came for an 11/23 with 2 x RL02, and it also has some special source files for 11/23, 11/34, etc ("small machines") including tests for recovery from segmentation traps in floating point (which isn't the same on all PDP-11 models), and an RK driver from the Boston Children's Museum which handles overlapped seeks on multiple drives. I'll be away for a couple of days so don't expect a prompt reply, but the source is online here so I can easily copy a few files when I get back. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

22 years, 4 months

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[pups] Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender

by Wolfgang Helbig

Richard L. Hamilton searches: >The files > >http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/sys/dev/rl.c >http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/sys/conf/mkconf.c > >don't seem to match - mkconf.c wants to generate references to >rlopen() and rlclose(), which don't exist in that version of rl. >What I'm really looking for is the right version of driver(s) etc. It seems that a version of the rl driver that matches mkconf, was never supplied by the bell labs. As a workaround delete the rl entry in cdevsw and the line "int rlopen,..." from c.c. This will give you a block device of the rl disk, but no raw device. Greetings, Wolfgang

22 years, 4 months

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[pups] V7 RL02 driver questions

by Richard L. Hamilton

The files http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/sys/dev/rl.c http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/sys/conf/mkconf.c don't seem to match - mkconf.c wants to generate references to rlopen() and rlclose(), which don't exist in that version of rl.c. What I'm really looking for is the right version of driver(s) etc. so that I can regenerate the rl2unix kernel in the V7 image available for use with simh, so that I can add or tweak drivers, eventually adding the dz driver so I can run multiple "terminals" with telnet access. -- mailto:rlhamil@mindwarp.smart.net http://www.smart.net/~rlhamil

22 years, 4 months

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db(I) in Unix V6

by Wolfgang Helbig

Hi, tinkering at V6--now I need db(I). It works fine, but three features that are described in its manual page seem to be missing: - The names of the general registers (r0, ...) are not build in, at least db only responds with `?' to `r0'. I can examine the registers via the `$' command though. - The '*' feature doesn't work, i.e. `*_main' gives me a `?'. - I can't specify a number being relocatable, i.e. '10r' gives me a `?'. Is this an exercise to the user? Did anyone solve the exercise. Or did I just not understand the manual page? Greetings, Wolfgang

22 years, 4 months

1
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Re: [pups] V7 setjmp/longjmp

by Wolfgang Helbig

Michael Davidson distrusted: >Note that this means that r4, r3 and r2 get restored to the values >that they had at the time that the next stack frame was established >(ie when the "next" function down was called from the original context) >and that these are not necessarily the values that they had at the >moment when the original call to setjnp returned. Hence the various >caveats about not relying on the value of any register variables >after returning via longjmp. You can trust register variables when setjmp() returns the second time. Then the registers are restored to the values they had when the "next" function was called, that is the "values as of the time longjmp() was called" (quoted from longjmp(3)'s man page. Thus any variable behaves the same, regardless of its storage class. By the way, this is not the case in V6. The register variables-- and only the register variables-- are restored to the values as of the time setexit() was called. (In V6 "setjmp()" is named "setexit()" and "longjmp()" is named "reset()"). Thus the value of a variable depends on its storage class. If it is register, you get the value when setexit() was called, if it is not register, you get the value when reset() was called. This might be considered a bug. Greetings Wolfgang

22 years, 4 months

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[pups] V7 setjmp/longjmp

by bwc＠coraid.com

Looking thru the code for setjmp/longjmp (/usr/src/libc/gen/setjmp.s), and have a question. Longjmp seems to make an attempt at restoring register two through four, but setjmp doesn't save them. Where do these register get saved from? Brantley Coile

22 years, 4 months

2
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Re: Patches to improve 6th Edition

by Wolfgang Helbig

some hours ago I wrote: >I ask this, because my system crashes ones in a while. But I changed it >here and there, so it might be my fault. It *was* my fault! So far, I have only found one bug in V6: The size of swapmap and coremap are configured too small, so they might overflow. The sizes don't take account of shared text segments, that produce extra chunks of free memory. In V6 there are 19 pure executables, so their minimal size should be (NPROC+19)*2, or better yet (NPROC+NTEXT)*2, where NTEXT should be set to 20 instead of 40 as distributed in param.h . I don't think this bug ever showed up. It is very unlikely. In V7 these sizes are choosen to be even smaller than NPROC and even with its many pure executables, I don't think V7 ever crashed because of this bug. So, with the only exception reported by Brian S. Walden, there seem to be no bugs in V6 that crash systems. Greetings Wolfgang

22 years, 4 months

1
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Re: [TUHS] Re: Patches to improve 6th Edition

by Wolfgang Helbig

> >In article by Mirian Crzig Lennox: >> This reminds me that I fixed a couple of "bugs" (some outright bugs, >> and some mere behaviours which I didn't quite like) in playing with my >> V6/simh environment, and I'm wondering if there is a place I should >> submit them in case others might be interested. [ .. ] Mirian, I'd love to see your fixes! By the way, you might want to look at http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Bug_Fixes/V6enb for some changes I applied to V6. Thanks to Warren and Mirian for helping me to undig the "50 bugs tape"! But the "bugs fixes" look more like performance enhancements. Do you know any real bugs in V6? By "real" I mean a bug, that might crash the system. I ask this, because my system crashes ones in a while. But I changed it here and there, so it might be my fault. Greetings, Wolfgang > >P.S Does anybody want to backport vi to 6th & 7th Edition?! :-) Hmm. It's less work to learn ed, so I took that path :-).

22 years, 4 months

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Re: Patches to improve 6th Edition

by Mike Haertel

In article by Warren Toomey: > P.S. Does anybody want to backport vi to 6th and 7th Edition?! :-) The 2BSD tape contains vi source code that can *definitely* be built on 7th edition (I've done it, it was easy) and supposedly can also be used to build a 6th-edition "native" vi if you're willing to backport the V7 C compiler (I haven't done that yet). Since many people in 2BSD's time frame would not have had access to V7 systems or V7-ish C compilers, the 2BSD tape also contains a vi binary for V6 systems. I think 2BSD was released around the same time as V7, and had an assumption that many people would not yet have access to V7, and so would want to use 2BSD as an add-on to V6 systems. Since 6th edition didn't have environment variables, the 2BSD/V6 version of vi would get the terminal type from a file that mapped hardwired serial lines to terminal type names. I think it was called /etc/htmp. By the way, does anybody else think that vi should have been upgraded to vii when V7 came out? :-)

22 years, 4 months

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Re: Patches to improve 6th Edition

by Brian S Walden

Yes there are other bugs you will want to fix as well if you are using v6 heavily and not on slow hardware (e.g. a simulator). In the inode allocation route (ialloc()) in /usr/sys/ken/alloc.c there is a bug in the placement of the loop: tag. You just have to move it up two line to above the while() loop. See the diff below. This rare Ken Thompson bug was found in 1988 on an Amdahl UTS machine that the hardware finally became fast enough that it caused us panics. This bug existed from (at least) the Fifth up until the Eighth editions from 1127 (BTL research). The Ninth edition had much rewrites in the kernel and the algorthim was changed at that point. Since it was in UTS, it must have been in the porting base of System V Release 2. This code is the basis for the System V filesystem, so it probably didn't exist in BSD releases since they used their fast filesystem (cylinder groups, et al.) which became UFS. It's amazing thet with the amount of eyes on it (via Lions Commentary, etc.) it was not spotted earlier. It would be good to get a collection of all "unreleased" bug fixes that others may have. *** alloc.c.orig Fri Dec 27 23:23:30 2002 --- alloc.c Fri Dec 27 23:23:30 2002 *************** *** 163,171 **** int i, j, k, ino; fp = getfs(dev); while(fp->s_ilock) sleep(&fp->s_ilock, PINOD); - loop: if(fp->s_ninode > 0) { ino = fp->s_inode[--fp->s_ninode]; ip = iget(dev, ino); --- 163,171 ---- int i, j, k, ino; fp = getfs(dev); + loop: while(fp->s_ilock) sleep(&fp->s_ilock, PINOD); if(fp->s_ninode > 0) { ino = fp->s_inode[--fp->s_ninode]; ip = iget(dev, ino); In article by Mirian Crzig Lennox: > This reminds me that I fixed a couple of "bugs" (some outright bugs, > and some mere behaviours which I didn't quite like) in playing with my > V6/simh environment, and I'm wondering if there is a place I should > submit them in case others might be interested.

22 years, 4 months

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Re: Re: [TUHS] Re: Patches to improve 6th Edition

by John Holden

> P.S Does anybody want to backport vi to 6th & 7th Edition?! :-) 'vi' definately works with I+D space under edition 7 (11/44/45/50/53/55/70/73) There was also an overlayed version for I space only under BSD 2.?, but it was sooooo slow as to be almost useless

22 years, 4 months

1
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V6: 50 bugs tape

by Wolfgang Helbig

Hi, someone on this list mentioned a '50 bugs tape', which contains bug fixes to Unix V6. Is this list somewhere in the archive? Thank you, Wolfgang

22 years, 4 months

4
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Re: [TUHS] In V6 exit(): wakeup(&proc[1])) unnecessary?

by Wolfgang Helbig

>>When a process terminates (in sys1.c/exit()), it explicitly wakes up >>the init process. In light of the fact, that every process has a parent, >>this extra wakeup(&proc[1]) seems unnecessary. > >I believe this is meant to handle the case where a process exits >without having called wait() on its children. > >Imagine two processes, A and B, where A is B's parent and A's parent >is some process other than init. B calls exit(), becomes a zombie, >and awakens A. Some time later, A calls exit() without ever having >called wait(). This will cause B to become a child of init, and as B >is a zombie, init should awaken so that B can die. However, A might >have any number of zombie children, and it would be redundant to call >wakeup(&proc[1]) for each one. Therefore, the wakeup call to init is >done up front, whether it is needed or not. This does result in some >unnecessary wakeup calls but on the whole it seems a good tradeoff for >code simplicity. Oh, I see! So the condition to wakeup init would be "Do I have any zombie children"? The code as it is is simpler. But harder to understand. Thank you very much for your help! Greetings Wolfgang Helbig

22 years, 5 months

1
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In V6 exit(): wakeup(&proc[1])) unnecessary?

by Wolfgang Helbig

Hi, encouraged by the profound answers I thankfully recieved to my previous question about the Unix V6 kernel, here is another one: When a process terminates (in sys1.c/exit()), it explicitly wakes up the init process. In light of the fact, that every process has a parent, this extra wakeup(&proc[1]) seems unnecessary. Furthermore, the "goto loop:" at the end of exit() will never be executed. So is this just defensive programming, or did I miss something? Greetings, Wolfgang Helbig

22 years, 5 months

2
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[pups] 11/34

by Robin Birch

Dear All, There is a complete 11/34 for sale on EBay (1 day to go). It comes with a complete V6 with source. Somebody buy it please. This is nothing to do with me, I just saw it tonight. It's in Pontypridd South Wales Cheers Robin -- Robin Birch

22 years, 5 months

2
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RE: [TUHS] re: Raise of interrupt level necessary

by Ian King

Yes, I have v6 running on an 11/34; it's amazing how easy it is to corrupt the filesystem. :-) One of these days, I need to dd another fresh system disk (RK05) off my "sacred copy" of a PUPS image (tediously transferred via 9600 baud serial using Warren's excellent vtserver tools). In any case, why do you ask? - Ian -----Original Message----- From: Wolfgang Helbig [mailto:helbig@Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE] Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 12:48 AM To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: Re: [TUHS] re: Raise of interrupt level necessary [snip] I also removed IPL protection from the return sequence of the trap routine, still works. Testing was done on Bob Supnik's SIMH PDP-11 simulator with only one terminal. By the way, is anyone running V6 on a real PDP-11? [snip]

22 years, 5 months

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re: Raise of interrupt level necessary

by Wolfgang Helbig

>Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:27:40 -0800 Michael Davidson wrote: >If you think that the "rule" is "no ISR can touch user space while >interrupting a kernel process", then it is display() that breaks >the rule. The point is, that this rule leads to somewhat simpler and therefore better code -- breaking the rule calls for some justification. Calling display() from the clock-ISR is the only place where an ISR does not conform to this rule. Greetings Wolfgang Helbig

22 years, 5 months

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Re: [TUHS] re: Raise of interrupt level necessary

by Wolfgang Helbig

Dennis, I greatly appreciate your reply. What amazes me most, is the fact that after 20 odd years you still remember those tricky details: >For example, the clock interrupt routine can inspect user >space (for display(), for example, though this is inactive >on the 11/40), and even change it (for profiling). >It does appear that other things (checking for >a direct-from user-mode interrupt) in the clock routine >already guard against these particular problems. To see what happens, I just removed those IPL raising instructions from gword, pword,_savu, _aretu, _copyseg, and _clearseg in m40.s. In fact, it didn't crash the system. At least on my configuration, ISRs don't touch user space while interrupting a kernel process. This rule is broken by the clock ISR, which calls display() unconditionally. Just curious: Is there any other reason beside seeing blinking lights that justifies calling display() 60 times per second and breaking the rule? I also removed IPL protection from the return sequence of the trap routine, still works. Testing was done on Bob Supnik's SIMH PDP-11 simulator with only one terminal. By the way, is anyone running V6 on a real PDP-11? Here is the diff of my modifications to m40.s: # diff m40.s.6 m40.s 44d43 * bis $340,PS 455,456d453 * mov PS,-(sp) * bis $340,PS 472,473d468 * mov PS,-(sp) * bis $340,PS 480d474 * mov (sp)+,PS 485d478 * mov (sp)+,PS 539d531 * bis $340,PS 548d539 * bis $340,PS 594c585 * mov $30340,PS --- . bis $30000,PS 621c612 * mov $30340,PS --- . bis $30000,PS Greetings, Wolfgang Helbig

22 years, 5 months

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qbus scsi controllers

by Robertdkeys＠aol.com

I know it causes one to salivate like Pavlov's dogs, even thinking about them, but, anyone know of any qbus scsi controllers that might someday come available at anything like reasonable sorts of guildern de realme? (running and ducking for cover....(:+]].....) Just thought I would check. Thanks Bob

22 years, 5 months

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Re: [TUHS] flaky webster or sigma WQESD4 and RQD11 controllers on KA650???

by Robertdkeys＠aol.com

The particular webster wqesd4 I have looks like about an '86 or so board, from chip dates, and the main chip that is socketed is marked with "ENGR-SAMPLE"...doh.... Maybe I do have a very early board that won't run with a faster cpu. The rom is a part no. 080469-01 REV 01, if that means anything to anyone, as marked on its paper label. The later sigma board does not have the problem. Oh, well, if I have to run it with a KA630 at slo-poke gait, so be it....(:+\\... There are two diodes, one looks like an ordinary silicon rectifier and one looks like a zener of some sort, possibly, off pin 19 of the 74ls240 at position V2 on the board. Those come off the J6 pin 10 of 10, and are in parallel. Thanks Bob

22 years, 5 months

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flaky webster or sigma WQESD4 and RQD11 controllers on KA650???

by John Holden

Early ROM revisions on the Webster MSCP controllers were too slow for the KA650 and would often loose interrupts (amoungst other things). Signals such as NPR and BR grants were polled from a pseudo microcode loop which took too long. The RS232 interface doesn't use standard receivers. Check for a 5 volt zener on the input of an 74LS240 (from the 10 pin i/o connector) and add a schottky in parallel (a 1N5818 would do) if one isn't there

22 years, 5 months

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flaky webster or sigma WQESD4 and RQD11 controllers on KA650???

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

If you can read this, the 4-port Wombat (Webster/Sigma ESDI controller) in the KA650 system through which this mail must pass on its way out is working fine, as it has since I installed it in that system a year and a half ago. According to my notes, I had no trouble communicating with the onboard diagnostic monitor (with the board in another KA650 reserved for system testing). I used the monitor quite a bit, starting it many times, first because it took me a long time to realize that the terminator had been left installed backwards in one of the drives (so the drive wasn't visible to the controller no matter what I did to the cables). I don't think I tried the serial port on the back of the Wombat board; instead I uttered the magic commands to load and run the Wombat communication program on the VAX itself. I'd expect this to be more timing-sensitive than the hardware port. In any case it worked fine. Once the controller could see the disks (and I'd done some formatting and some testing with the diagnostics), I tested the Wombat under my oddball version of UNIX, and found what may be an MSCP implementation botch. A UNIBUS/QBUS MSCP storage port gets only one interrupt vector; it is supposed to set one of two flags to indicate whether it is interrupting because there were no command slots and it freed one, or because there were no messages waiting to be read and it supplied one. The Wombat appeared often to be tardy in setting the `message waiting' flag; my port driver often received an interrupt, checked the flags, found nothing to do, and of course dismissed the interrupt without realizing that the controller had in fact reported an I/O completion. (And of course if I halted the system and took a crash dump I found the flag set. It took some real-time tracing to uncover the problem.) It is easy to work around this--instead of relying on the flag, one can go look at the message descriptors to see if there's a new message-- so that is what my driver now does. I have a vague memory that the original Ultrix MSCP driver, whence the current BSD one is probably descended and the current Ultrix one more distantly, already did it that way. Silly me, I programmed from the protocol spec rather than just blindly copying someone else's unexplained code ... None of this explains why Bob Keys is having trouble, but it does suggest to me that the Wombat firmware might have other subtle bugs that are tickled by particular systems, perhaps even timing-dependent problems. (I haven't checked, but it could well be that the interrupt- flag bug would be invisible to a KA630 because it took a little longer to get to that part of the interrupt routine.) I have two Wombat boards with slightly different firmware. (One is labelled RQD11-EC and its diagnostic monitor calls itself WOMBAT; the other is branded by SpectraLogic, I forget what model it calls itself, but the monitor calls itself SLEUTH.) My notes don't say whether they both displayed the interrupt botch. I do know that communications with the diagnostic monitor worked fine with both. The RQD11-EC claimed to have firmware (or perhaps diagnostic monitor) version 2.38. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

22 years, 5 months

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Re: [TUHS] flaky webster or sigma WQESD4 and RQD11 controllers on KA650???

by Carl Lowenstein

> From: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) > To: tuhs(a)tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [TUHS] flaky webster or sigma WQESD4 and RQD11 controllers on KA650??? > Date: Thu, 12 Dec 02 23:29:58 PST > > Robertdkeys(a)aol.com wrote: > > > Is there an endemic problem with this style 4 > > port controller running too fast with a KA650 > > compared to a KA630 cpu? > > I have no explanation for your problem, but it has nothing to do > with speed. Q-bus is Q-bus, and it follows Q-bus timing, which is > completely independent of the VAX CPU timing. Yes but there might be CPU spin-loop timing to run the serial maintenance port from the ROM bootstrap code of the controller. Not considered good form -- but such things happen. Some early version of the Sigma RQD11 would work in an 11/73 but not a KA630. I no longer remember the exact symptoms, but I was glad that at the time Sigma was only an 80-mile drive from here. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst(a)ucsd.edu

22 years, 5 months

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Re: [TUHS] flaky webster or sigma WQESD4 and RQD11 controllers on KA650???

by Robertdkeys＠aol.com

I found out what the problem was.....(sheepishly ducking...(:+\\...). At 3 in the morning I had a typeo in the config file that the old eyeballs did not catch. I had typed in the partitions to allocate to root and swap, as opposed to just the the disks. It compiled fine, but when run, it paniced and dumped itself all over the floor. So much for myopic eyes programming at 3 in the morning..... (:+{{..... Bob

22 years, 5 months

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