Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
> code and thus of no relevance to this group]
By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557(a)rek.tjls.com>
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References: <0006191440.AA05429(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
> > code and thus of no relevance to this group]
>
> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.
I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere. I'm also
asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks
on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most
recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in
your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere.
Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
in quite the same way in which you do? Of course not. Your opinion
is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that
way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he
goes away. Great. Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation
project.
Thor
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Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> wrote:
> * Markus Leypold wrote:
> > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes),
>
> Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really
> *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did
> hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
> myself.
Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-)
To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I
support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big
and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the
original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of
the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual
that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on
Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special
power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture.
There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
"modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced,
VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I
support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real
VAXen.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
> genuine article'.
No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that
feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles
scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an
RA81 across the campus.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
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>From Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200
From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx>
To: PUPS mailinglist <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
Message-ID: <20000619160836.A12288(a)mud.stack.nl>
Reply-To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx>
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Hello!
I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be
enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
bare-bones on that disk?
I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.
Your help is greatly appreciated..
--
Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
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In article by Alan F R Bain:
> Warren,
> Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines.
> Alan
Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then
please e-mail me.
Warren
The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those
people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix
is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code
ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs.
Topics that fall within the list's charter include:
+ how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system
+ discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix
+ applications for PDP-11 Unix systems
+ modification of PDP-11 Unix systems
+ technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems
+ anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix
+ discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11
section of the Unix Archive
Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include:
+ discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being
compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems
+ attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations
+ postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list
subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version
of PDP-11 Unix
The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber
continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that
effect, then their postings may be moderated.
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG,
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG)
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
References: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT
> From: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
> Sender: owner-tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
>
> Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
> BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
>
> Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
>
> Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
> and preservation section of our project.
Hi Friends,
I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user
of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or
architecture, i.e. BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for
me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions.
Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other
stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me.
Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future
generations of software historians will be very thankful.
Regards -- Markus
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> (apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org)
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org>
> Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000
> Lines: 13
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> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes:
>
> > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > > material of this nature on the lists.
> >
> > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
>
> No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
> something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
> to the death your right to say it."
>
> You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.
I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more
diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to
UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being
treated somewhat more respectfully :-)
UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system.
On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to
see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that,
and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp.
I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic.
Regards -- Markus
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-reply-to: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400)
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Yesterday I asked:
>
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
>
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
>
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989
> 2.11BSD from the past year
>
> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
> I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-)
> proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
> adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
Hi Tim,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put
something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one
needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the
transfer of features between the diverse branches.
Regards Markus.
>
> --
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
Cc: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
In-reply-to: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> (message from Robin Birch on
Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100)
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
> <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
> >Hi --
> >
> > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> >
> >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> >> Yesterday I asked:
> >>
> >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >> >didn't remember...
> >>
> >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
>
> > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
> >
> For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
> archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
> historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
> normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
> have some effects on the archive structure.
Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss
is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you
could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them.
Regards -- Markus
>
> Robin
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
>
> M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: mallison(a)konnections.com
Cc: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>
(mallison(a)konnections.com)
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
> to me.
>
> I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
> PUPS and now TUHS.
>
> Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
> machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
offspring.
Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?
>
> The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
> is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
> to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But
> the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
> pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
>
> Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
> se.
>
> Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
> regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
>
> I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to
> define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.
Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community
certainly should be a parameter :-)
It makes me sad to see all this.
Regards -- Markus
> Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
>
> -Mike
>
> Mike Allison
> Stranded in Utah, USA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
>
>
> >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
> And
> >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
> are
> >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> >
>
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: kshuff(a)fast.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000
12:31:18 -0400)
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400
> From: kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net>
> Organization: I'm not organized
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> >
>
> That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
> and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
> hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.
And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
genuine article'.
-- Markus
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000
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To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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* Markus Leypold wrote:
> On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes),
Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really
*original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did
hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
myself.
--tim
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000
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From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote:
>
>
> > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
> > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> >
> > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
> > to me.
> >
> > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
> > PUPS and now TUHS.
> >
> > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
> > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
>
> Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
> yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
> brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
> Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
> offspring.
For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph,
it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right.
Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially
done for what became BSDI. A somewhat infamous falling-out during
Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it
as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386.
BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1. Jolitz kept saying things
about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it
wouldn't be released soon, if ever. A semi-official "patchkit"
sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus
patchkit X.
Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small
number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally
managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like
focus to the 386BSD chaos. An early snapshot of this made its
way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to
participate. NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later
the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD. Though there
was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work --
there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD
or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot. Since
these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved
it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem
to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong.
Thor
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>From Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com> Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000
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From: Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com>
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My $0.02:
I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people
thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different.
In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7
release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques.
In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release,
it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
the reconstruction of an even truer tape.
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Tim Shoppa writes,
> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.
Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of
the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the
previous versions. I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at
http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/
eric
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>From Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net> Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000
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Posted-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:23:22 +0200 (CEST)
To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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From: Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net>
Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:23:21 +0200
In-Reply-To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT"
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msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes:
[snip]
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7(a)home.com ?
it's a joke :)
Cyrille.
--
home:mailto:clefevre@no-spam.citeweb.net Supprimer "no-spam." pour me repondre.
work:mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@no-spam.edf.fr Remove "no-spam." to answer me back.
David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy,
> McKusick, or Lefler on your list.
Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a
replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V
research UNIX.
> So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
> rather than some System III/V [...]
Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7
and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em-
five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that
is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software
License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System
III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up
instead.
Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> wrote:
> That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
> and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
> hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.
Then why are you on this list?
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sun Jun 18 04:13:45 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy,
McKusick, or Lefler on your list. So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
rather than some System III/V + 2BSD?? Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T
kernel quite a bit. Or did you not know that they touched that code.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
> [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut
> out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the
> code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD,
> and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics]
It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of
True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True
UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can
make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle
of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all
without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the
source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the
circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the
only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric
bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't
part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no
position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has
changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their
homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free
clickwrap license.
If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
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>From "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk> Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200
From: "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list.
--
Soren
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>From "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000
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From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
To: "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
to me.
I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
PUPS and now TUHS.
Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But
the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
se.
Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to
define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.
Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
-Mike
Mike Allison
Stranded in Utah, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
>If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
And
>I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
>about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
are
>still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>
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>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Sat Jun 17 09:09:00 2000
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>
That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
your views
and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
more "modern"
hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
past.
K.S.
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> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > > but not real complete.
> >
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> >
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> >
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
>
> [... and more spewage ...]
>
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
>
> Thor
I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email
when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his
non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies.
Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I
wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people
are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and
are downright rude and insulting.
Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved
in faces at every opportunity is intolerable.
Regards,
Scott G. Taylor
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing
> > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real
> > > complete.
> >
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> >
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> >
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
>
> [... and more spewage ...]
>
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> I know this of course, I have one.
Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk
space with this email?
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000
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Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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"David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes:
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
>
> I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it."
You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000
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Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm"
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In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
> Thor
While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it
be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs,
so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings
you could say:
As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD
but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details.
I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but
I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive.
For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers
from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please
try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you
might post something like:
In article by Joe Bloe:
> I think turtles are ugly.
I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll
take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter
with the mailing list.
I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive
and not divisive.
Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff,
which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all
the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to
the right list!!!
Thank you,
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Yesterday I asked:
>Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
>didn't remember...
Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
"fairly recent" end:
2.9 from 1983
2.9.1BSD from 1983
2.10BSD from 1987
2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.11BSD from the past year
Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Digest?
In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289(a)home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000 7:43:50 am"
To: robport(a)home.com (Robert Porter)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society),
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Robert Porter:
> Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some
> sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email
> than I get otherwise).
Send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines:
unsubscribe tuhs
unsubscribe pups
subscribe pups-digest
subscribe tuhs-digest
Cheers!
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Hi --
I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Yesterday I asked:
>
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
>
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted
("real work" the boss wanted ;)).
It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%.
The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out
and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last
folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number
of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues
and distribution.
There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would
be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning
of 1991).
> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
>
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991
> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might
have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com>
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
> > Thor
>
> While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
> I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to
my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack
on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating.
I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for
the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference
with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why
PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the
people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve.
Thor
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
> catalog, and preserve.
Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
Source Revolution". This is on-line at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
brought up the subject of the popularity of the
freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
originated in the 32/V release.
With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
should be tolerated.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100
To: obrien(a)NUXI.com
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>
<200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In message <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien
<obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes
>On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
>> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
>> catalog, and preserve.
>
>Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
>Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
>talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
>Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
>Source Revolution". This is on-line at
>http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
>
> During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
> brought up the subject of the popularity of the
> freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
> possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
> BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
> large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
> could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
> utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
> Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
>
> Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
> development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
> from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
> only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
> Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
> rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
> trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
> Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
> such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
> the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
> all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
>
> Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
> hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
> our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
> over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
> originated in the 32/V release.
>
>With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
>should be tolerated.
>
Seconded!!!
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi --
>
> I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
>
>> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
>> Yesterday I asked:
>>
>> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
>> >didn't remember...
>>
>> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
>> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
>> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
>
For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
have some effects on the archive structure.
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.
The line of True UNIX development is straight:
V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus
There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD
1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler
toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so
it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as
versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system,
which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the
intended targets.
Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never
been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the
VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s,
ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from
PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed
down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>
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In-Reply-To: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > but not real complete.
>
> The line of True UNIX development is straight:
>
> V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
>
> There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
[... and more spewage ...]
I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
Thor
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